Question for Homebuilders, Contractors, or Homeowners

[Markos]

All:

I've been looking at a fixer upper. These repair items aren't all a necessity, but I only have a rough guestimate of how much they cost. I'm looking for some better numbers. Any help on some or all of the questions would be much appreciated. Assume that this is all for a 2000 sqf ranch.

1. How much is a clay roof? How about a clay-look roof?
2. How much to 're-pitch' a shallow pitched roof? Ex. new framing/plywood/siding/labor.
3. How much does it cost to fill an average sized pool (although this one is at least 10ft deep in the 'deep end').
4. How much does it cost to run a pool in the summer?
5. How much does it cost to install a garage door on an enclosed carport?
6. How much to pour new concrete on an average driveway? (included tearing out the old driveway and disposal).


I know these questions are rather general. Feel free to ignore the post if you don't find this stuff interesting...

[Number 7]

I think I saw you yesterday coming out of Thistle onto Palasades. I was in a gray wrangler & waved.

Where's the house at? Did you buy it yet? I'd be happy to look at it with you & give advise.

Clay Roof? Do you mean concrete tile? Apprx. $5.00 per sq. ft.

Why do you need to re-pitch roof? Is it a flat roof?

Fill a pool for about $100 (cost of water) + $100 for starter chemicals.

To run the pool in the summer figure $100 for chemicals + $35 electricity assuming no break-down in pool equipment.

Garage door & opener on a finished opening is around $650 (double door).

Figure around $8 - $9 per sq. ft. on the driveway just to be on the safe side (including taking up old one).

George

[Markos]

George,

Sorry it must have been someone else. I wasn't on Thistle yesterday. I have at least one twin Cherokee classic driving around. I know what your jeep looks like now, so I'll give you a wave if I see you.

Thanks for all the info on the costs. I was pleasantly suprised by most of those numbers. The house isn't officially on the market, so I can't really disclose much about it, or have people stop by. I appreciate the offer though.

The roof doesn't need to be re-pitched. It's got a really mild slope, giving it a modular home look. It's a typical fountain hills ranch. It would look much better with a steeper tile roof. I guess I assumed that they are made of clay. Standard tile roof...

[Number 7]

It sounds like the house has a shingle roof. If so, you cannot put tile on that roof because of a.) the slope is too shallow and b.) the trusses are probably not engineered for the weight of the tile.

If you wanted to change the pitch of the roof make sure the trusses are engineered for the weight, and have at least a 4:12 pitch.

If you're going to rip out the driveway, I would suggest pavers rather than concrete. Way better resale for a little more money.

[amber.hodge]

All:

I've been looking at a fixer upper. These repair items aren't all a necessity, but I only have a rough guestimate of how much they cost. I'm looking for some better numbers. Any help on some or all of the questions would be much appreciated. Assume that this is all for a 2000 sqf ranch.

1. How much is a clay roof? How about a clay-look roof?
2. How much to 're-pitch' a shallow pitched roof? Ex. new framing/plywood/siding/labor.
3. How much does it cost to fill an average sized pool (although this one is at least 10ft deep in the 'deep end').
4. How much does it cost to run a pool in the summer?
5. How much does it cost to install a garage door on an enclosed carport?
6. How much to pour new concrete on an average driveway? (included tearing out the old driveway and disposal).


I know these questions are rather general. Feel free to ignore the post if you don't find this stuff interesting...


for tearing out the driveway, go to AZ Rentals and rent yourself a 70 Lb hammer and a compressor - get a couple guys and some beer and go to town.
As for the garage door, price them out plus the opener and then you're pretty much there....

Ben did tile for 7 years and has also been an assistant superintendant for a luxury home builder in Carefree/Desert Mountain and a finishing sup. for the McAllister Dormatories at ASU....He has no problem coming out and helping on any construction project, but prefers not to do electrical, plumbing or drywall....even though he knows how to do drywall :) If you have questions, feel free to call him, his number is already all over the site. :)

[Markos]

Thanks Amber, I greatly appreciate the help. This home purchase is a shot in the dark. It needs a ton of work. I'm speaking with a lender though, so it may happen. Have a good one!

[amber.hodge]

You too! We opted new. The KB Homes out at Talladera off of ellsworth/rittenhouse/ocotillo has houses starting at 160,000 and they are in a golf community anywhere up to 2200 sf...(need jeeper neighbors...!!)
We got a 1357 sq ft 3/2 for a starter house for 168,000 incl upgrades...we figured the next one will be a fixer with larger sq ft.

[lancetkenyon]

All:

I've been looking at a fixer upper. These repair items aren't all a necessity, but I only have a rough guestimate of how much they cost. I'm looking for some better numbers. Any help on some or all of the questions would be much appreciated. Assume that this is all for a 2000 sqf ranch.

1. How much is a clay roof? How about a clay-look roof?
2. How much to 're-pitch' a shallow pitched roof? Ex. new framing/plywood/siding/labor.
3. How much does it cost to fill an average sized pool (although this one is at least 10ft deep in the 'deep end').
4. How much does it cost to run a pool in the summer?
5. How much does it cost to install a garage door on an enclosed carport?
6. How much to pour new concrete on an average driveway? (included tearing out the old driveway and disposal).


I know these questions are rather general. Feel free to ignore the post if you don't find this stuff interesting...

Answers:
1. Reroof: If your roof is a shingle roof, figure in the cost of tearoff, usually around$1-2 per square foot, including haul off and dump fees. When going to tile roof from a shingle roof, there are very few manufacturers that make a composite tile that looks like the real concrete tile. Eagle-lite, by Eagle tile is one that we use. On average, shingles weigh around 2 lbs per sq foot, while conc tile weighs 7-10 lbs/sq ft. Eagle-lite is around 4 lbs/sq ft, which is the equivalent to 2 layers of shingles, the max allowed by code. Your existing trusses are engineered for live and dead loads in the 8 lbs/sq ft range, IF you have trusses and a shingle roof. Pitch of roof also determines if tile is a viable option. Pitch is measured: every 12" you measure horizontally(the run), you measure up to meet the roof point(rise). I.E: a 4 and 12 pitch, for every 12" of run, you have 4" of rise. In most jurisdictions, 4 and 12 pitch is the minimum for tile roofs. Composite tile is more costly than standard conc tile, almost double. But you do not have to retruss your house, which is a whole new ballgame. Figure on anywhere from $6-12/sq ft for the comp tile. It will last a lifetime though(40 yrs?) It is the underlayment that will need replaced by then, not the tile. Shingles should run around $3-4/sq foot, including tearoff and haul away of old material. Should last around 20+ years.

2."repitch roof": It would require a permit and a licensed contractor, engineering, and material and labor. In most cases(99%?), it would require tearing off the entire old roof(roofing material, plywood, trusses, eaves, fascia, etc) and installing new trusses, and ALL electric, plumbing, mechanical(ductwork), and any other items running through the existing attic. Might as well move if this is the case. Much more cost effective. You are looking, honestly in the $50K range at least, because you still need the above mentioned roofing costs as well.

3. I don't know

4. I don't know

5.Garage door: Figure in the cost of door itself and install, anywhere from $1K to $10K depending on your taste in doors themselves. Also, you would require permit from local municipality, unless you are real sneeky:D . Also need electric for opener(110v outlet, push button, sensors, etc), unless you want to pull it open every time. Also, with a permit, and to be up to code, you would probably need to change the entry door to the house to a fire rated door with self-closing hinges, and maybe need to double up the drywall on all ceilings and common walls to the house, for fire regulations. Also would need to cut in vents for carbon monoxide ventilation. Looking around $2-3K, including door itself, unless you want the high end doors.

6. Driveway: Figure around $1K for tearout and haul away(dump fees are outrageous). New conc will be around $4/sq ft, including material and finishing for standard conc.

[Markos]

Fantastic. Thanks!

Based on your figures, I think the repitched tile roof is out of the question. the garage is closer to the range that I guessed. I didn't consider the various codes to consider. Thanks again!

[TRobertsRN]

Markos,

Myself and my side business partner have bought fixer uppers, done the remodeling ourselves, and resold them for 15 plus years.

We have never lost money and at times made quite a bit.

Current estimates are that if will take a year or more before the market as a whole goes up at a normal rate.

That being said there are still ways to make money in homes or just get the best deal on a home you plan to keep.


Our rule has always been consider the cost of the house including the mortgage while working on it and utilities, plus the estimated cost to remodle and assuming the market does not go up that similar properites in the same area are selling for $30,000 more than that total or we walk away.

In other words no market change will net you $30,000. There are allways hidden cost r/t issues you find when you start fixing it up.


IN THE CURRENT MARKET WE ARE NO LONGER PURCHASING FIXER UPPERS. They are not a bargain. The deals from new home builders are so good we just can't turn them down.

Currently new homes in many places are sellling for less per square foot than resale homes that need fixing up and much less than resale homes that don't need fixing.

We have two fixer uppers currently, one ready to sell and the other with more repair to go.

Recently we bought two new homes not just because they are cheaper but also we won't have to put in the time and money for repairs, the real no money down deals (a fixer will usually require 5-20% down depending on your credit), and they are ready to move into with appliances and blinds included. We will sell them in a year, and live in them in the mean time.

I would not currently buy a fixer upper or a resale house in this market. I have a remodeled house for sale but to sell it I will need someone who wants to live in that neighborhood instead of 15 min away where new homes are and has a need for an Acre with no HOA.

Whether you are doing this as an investment or to live in I suggest you look at new homes.

I am a realtor and will gladly set you up with a search for new and used homes. This costs you nothing (seller pays my commission) and I don't require you to sign a contract with me. You find something on your own you owe me nothing.

Good Luck,

Thomas

[Markos]

Tom,

Your perspective was outside the scope of my list of questions, and much welcomed. Thank you for the input. I'll throw some additional thoughts out there. If you have time to respond, that would be great.

The house is in fountain hills, which does not have the capacity for new development. All new houses being built are in the 700 to 1M+ range. The median home price for a fountain hills home was 677k in 2005. The town is surrounded by mountains, and indian reservations. The next closest development is on the west side of McDowel mountain, with prices that match any new developments in fountain hills.

I looked at neighboring homes on Zillow. The house that I'm interested is actually listed 85k higher than the price i'm shooting for. The majority of the neigboring homes are at least 75k to 120k higher than the home I'm interested in. A select few are 60k higher, and one is only 30k higher.

I would live in the 3 bedroom home for at least 2 years while working on improvements. The house is 'liveable', but needs a lot of work. Here are the issues:

1. Windows are from the 70's
2. All doors need replacing
3. Needs a complete new kitchen.
4. The HVAC system looks to be in very poor shape.
5. Garage door is a must. Will require a door instalation from enclosed carport to living room.
6. Alsphalt driveway looks very ugly, dated, and rough.
7. Needs new bathrooms (2) vanity, lighting, tub, showers (basically everything)
8. Wallboard within the home is that hollow sounding textured stuff from the 70's/80's. It's not dryway, sounds more like wood. I don't know if this would be a challenge to work with, or acquire.
9. The house needs to be painted. The paint is in good shape, but the color sucks.

10. There is a visible termite tube on the ceiling in the halway, comming out of the wallboard material. Interestingly enough, I stayed in an 'apartment with this same crappy walboard, and it had termites comming out of the ceiling also. What concerns me is that the house has been vacant for at least 8 months, most likely longer. I know the arizona termite saying, but this makes me the most hesitant. The exterior walls are brick. You can see the brick in the closets also...

There are many other smaller issues, but those are the main ones...

[Markos]

<double post>

[TRobertsRN]

Makos,

Glad to send more info your way.

This is without having looked at it in person.

With how long you plan to live in it and the surrounding homes you may have a good opportinity there. Also at two years unless you make a silly amount of profit you will pay no capital gains tax.

My inlaws live in Rio Verde North of there so some knowledge of Fountain Hills. Decidedly upscale.

What I like the sound of is that from what you say it is what we used to always look for in a home to remodel. In other word the biggest piece of *&$t in a great neighborhood. Also you are in a filled in area with no new construction for the most part, very good sign.

If the rest of the homes there look good with well kept yards, newer automobiles these are good things. If there are other run down homes on the block I would avoid it unless you know others have plans to remodle them.

If when remodeled it would be as attractive as other homes in the area would be a good idea. If would not compare to them bad idea to remodel, possibly better idea to knock it down, get a construction loan and rebuild.

Also in this price range plan on even in a normal market (not like the slow one now) that it was usually take 6 months to over a year to sell.

If when done it is either the most valuable or least valuable home on the block or neighborhood will take even longer to sell. If most expensive you will be competing with more upscale neighborhoods, and if least expensive you will be competing with better homes in less expensive neighborhoods. When a market recovers the $180,000 to $275,000 34 bedroom 2 bath 2 car garage homes are the first to go up in price (we call these bread and butter homes), and the $750,000 and up homes are the last to do so. Usually there is more profit in 2 years on 3 bread and butters than on one luxury of same total value and they sell faster.

I like that it is a block home. If it were stuco with a termite history I would stay away from it. Given termites I would plan to completely gut it of all wood and sheet rock (termites eat the paaper off of it). You will have to disclose the termite history when you sell it and this will scare some. Like general home inspection I mention in another paprgraph a termite inspection by a professional would be a must.

You can make your offer contingent on a ten day inspection period (very standard practice), when you have your inspections done. Depending on inspection results you can cancel the contract and get your earnest money back or make a different offer.

I highly suggest a good home inspector who gets up in the attic. Will cost you some money but well worth it to know if you should walk away from it and great for bargining the price down.

Even though the windows are from the 70's you will not make your money back by replacing them. Cost is more than increased value. If they are outdated enough may need to replace to make attractive enough to sell. This is much like putting in a pool, increased value never exceeds cost.

Remodel of kitchens are bathrooms are the best profit areas.

Not matter the relationship it is usually the woman who chooses the house. Kitchens and bathrooms must be modern and clean.

Paint: It is usually best not to paint in your favorite if you plan to resell. What ever the current off white being used is usually the best choice. I will please the most people and let them use there imagination about their favorite colors.

Look at homes in the neighborhood that are for sale and have open houses new and resale. Remodel the kitchen and bath in a similar or slightly better quality. If your fixtures and cabnets are less quality than the neighbors it won't sell, if you over do it you won't get any more money than if you matche the heighborhood. All the neighbors have granite counter tops and maple cabinets you better match it.

We are in two remodels now, on is formica and oak with carpet and cheap tile with cheap appliances, the other beautiful cherry and granite with expensive diagional tile and very expensive restuarant quality appliances. The only reason we got into the expensive one was it was available at $300,000 under market value. It is much more of a gamble than 3 lesser homes.

So realize that you will have to keep up with the Jones's to sell it later.

All this stuff is off the top of my head and not organized but I hope it helps.

Tom

[lancetkenyon]

Tom,

Your perspective was outside the scope of my list of questions, and much welcomed. Thank you for the input. I'll throw some additional thoughts out there. If you have time to respond, that would be great.

The house is in fountain hills, which does not have the capacity for new development. All new houses being built are in the 700 to 1M+ range. The median home price for a fountain hills home was 677k in 2005. The town is surrounded by mountains, and indian reservations. The next closest development is on the west side of McDowel mountain, with prices that match any new developments in fountain hills.

I looked at neighboring homes on Zillow. The house that I'm interested is actually listed 85k higher than the price i'm shooting for. The majority of the neigboring homes are at least 75k to 120k higher than the home I'm interested in. A select few are 60k higher, and one is only 30k higher.

I would live in the 3 bedroom home for at least 2 years while working on improvements. The house is 'liveable', but needs a lot of work. Here are the issues:

1. Windows are from the 70's
2. All doors need replacing
3. Needs a complete new kitchen.
4. The HVAC system looks to be in very poor shape.
5. Garage door is a must. Will require a door instalation from enclosed carport to living room.
6. Alsphalt driveway looks very ugly, dated, and rough.
7. Needs new bathrooms (2) vanity, lighting, tub, showers (basically everything)
8. Wallboard within the home is that hollow sounding textured stuff from the 70's/80's. It's not dryway, sounds more like wood. I don't know if this would be a challenge to work with, or acquire.
9. The house needs to be painted. The paint is in good shape, but the color sucks.

10. There is a visible termite tube on the ceiling in the halway, comming out of the wallboard material. Interestingly enough, I stayed in an 'apartment with this same crappy walboard, and it had termites comming out of the ceiling also. What concerns me is that the house has been vacant for at least 8 months, most likely longer. I know the arizona termite saying, but this makes me the most hesitant. The exterior walls are brick. You can see the brick in the closets also...

There are many other smaller issues, but those are the main ones...

Some more info:

1: Windows:Most older windows are single glazed(1 pc of glass). When up grading windows, new dual glazed, tinted are a must. Some municipalities require Low E(low emisivity, lower thermal transfer) when upgrading windows. You will also see a huge improvement in energy costs, and might be eligible for rebates from APS/SRP and the State. COst is going to average $400 per window plus install. Of course smaller windows are less, and big windows are more, but a good average. Depending on what your exterior is, you might have repair to the finish(stucco, masonite siding trim, wood trim, etc.) Might need a permit from city for this upgrade. And permission from homeowners assc.

2: Doors: Int doors are relitively cheap, around $50 per door. Ext doors vary greatly, depending on material and taste. Intstall would include tearout, rehang new door, new trim, and paint. Might also want to go aheaqd and upgrade the door hardware too. Around $15-20 per door for basic hardware. Most likely would need permit for ext doors, int are no problem.

3: Kitchen: Too many areas to go into detail, but the good thing about a new kitchen, 90% to 110% of cost can be recouped when selling the house. A modern kitchen and bathroom are HUGE points of interest in buying an older home. Trend is leaning towards darker, high quality wood, and granite or solid surface tops. But Formica is still popular for the price, and there are new HD tops out from Wilsonart, which looks almost 3D, like real granite.

4: HVAC: Upgrading a unit and ductwork can increase the efficiency of a house, and even pay for itself in 5-10 years, depending on the age of existing units. You are most oftentimes eligible for rebates, same as with the window upgrades. Expect to spend around $10K for a COMPLETE upgrade. Get a LICENSED, REPUTABLE contractor. The guy we use does incredible work, and is very competitive on pricing. If you want his #, PM me. He can give you a free est too.

5: Garage door: Already covered in previous post.

6: Driveway: Already covered, but asphalt.........yuk.:eek:

7: Bathrooms: I did my own bathrooms for around $4K a piece. High end stuff, but I did all the work myself. Custom vanities, granite tops, granite shower walls, roman tubs, med cabs, mirrors, lighting, tile, enclosures, paint, toilets. If a contractor does it, figure on almost double the cost. But again, a modern bath is a HUGE selling feture, about 70-90% recovery on cost at resale.

8: Walls: The walls are probably lath and plaster. Leave them alone. You can retexture and paint them, and they will look new. A HUGE undertaking to remove and replace with drywall.

9: Paint: A new paint job that compliments the house will run between $1500-2500, depending on how many colors, brand of paint, quality of paint, condition of eave, fascia, and ext landscaping. A better paint color will help sell a house too. Just make sure the contractor does not cut the paint too much. I have seen a company out where I work take a 5 gal bucket, and cut it with 10 gals of water to make 15 gals of "paint".:rolleyes: Looks great as soon as it is done, but within 1 year, looks like a 15 year old paint job.

10: Termites: Uh-oh! Call a reputable pest company and get on a schedule and contract. Also, might want to get a Home inspector to go through the house BEFORE you buy it. Most companies have some picky inspectors, who know their codes, and can find a bunch of stuff that might cause you headaches if not known in advance. Gives you some leverage on the price too.

Good luck on the purchase.

[TRobertsRN]

Markos,

Did you end of getting the place in Fountian Hills?