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JamesT
04-28-2007, 11:28 AM
Did anyone read the article in the Wallstreet J. last weekend about Renzi and the Oak Flats deal?

I have a pdf of it some where, just pm me with your email address and I will find it and send it to you.

My questions being; in the article it says the land around Oak flats was protected under some president's (I think Eisenhouer (sp?)) act, how was it swapped with the protection? Ultimately, the Renzi deal didn't go through, but Bruce Babbit "helped" make the land deal go through, with backing from Nappy and the state presentatives from that area; why are these people not being held accountable in the local media?

After reading the article and being out there, this entire thing just pi$$es me off.

{Edit} Just for claiification, it was on the front page of the WSJ and no mention of it in the local rag.... Let's see, front page of a national publication and no mention in a local publication, hmmmmm something doesn't seem right.

Sandee McCullen
04-28-2007, 05:44 PM
Did anyone read the article in the Wallstreet J. last weekend about Renzi and the Oak Flats deal?

I have a pdf of it some where, just pm me with your email address and I will find it and send it to you.

My questions being; in the article it says the land around Oak flats was protected under some president's (I think Eisenhouer (sp?)) act, how was it swapped with the protection? Ultimately, the Renzi deal didn't go through, but Bruce Babbit "helped" make the land deal go through, with backing from Nappy and the state presentatives from that area; why are these people not being held accountable in the local media?

After reading the article and being out there, this entire thing just pi$$es me off.

{Edit} Just for claiification, it was on the front page of the WSJ and no mention of it in the local rag.... Let's see, front page of a national publication and no mention in a local publication, hmmmmm something doesn't seem right.

James,
Please send to me at sandee@mccullens.com
Doesn't matter to me re a PM or not but I have some back "history" on this deal so decided to post to all.

I've been trying to trace info on this deal for several months. It didn't go anywhere in legislation (DC) session last year but we expected it to reappear this year. As of a month ago (last time I checked) I hadn't found anything re it being resubmitted into 2007 legislation.

Renzi caused a huge ruckus with Forest Service when he went above FS heads with the initial exchange packet.... FS did not want to allow it but there were some really important parcels within the trade that would have benefited a number of others. The environmentalists knew of it from the get go and made a deal with Resolution Copper Mining to get millions from RCM for another area equal to Devils Canyon for rock "climbing". Originally the area they found was near Kearny on BLM lands. They were suppose to obtain an R&PP (lease or VERY CHEAP purchase under the Recreation & Public Purposes Act). The last I heard BLM was just going to give it to them so they would have to pay the environmental assessment fees etc. We, OHV, heard about it some time later at which time we contacted Resolution Copper and asked for the same deal to replace our technical trails or rock crawling site. We were told, reading between the lines, that the enviros were not losing Devils Canyon that the money was more as a pay off to obtain their support for the exchange. We were then told we could retain our trails, RCM would help us re=route trails if they interfered with their actual drilling or main site, and they would give us an area on the boundry for a rock crawl site. They asked for a route inventory etc. We did it all but then heard nothing but this was close to the end of 2006 leg. session. Nothing since.
I'd love to follow this through............. heard Renzi was in some investigation or questions regarding this deal???
Please send what you have or if not possible, maybe the day of the article and I can maybe trace it that way?

JamesT
04-29-2007, 09:54 AM
I will send you the article. I tried to access it through the WSJ's web site and you have to have a subscription, so I didn't post the link. I did scan in the original article from 4/20 (or 21)/07 front page.

I just think it is weird that the Democrats, namely Bruce Babbit and Nappy, who are supposed to be the party of "keeping the enviroment 'natural' (it's for the childern)" would allow this to go on and even sanction it. Heck, they won't allow drilling in Alaska but, they will allow it in 'Superior'. What kind of message does that send? Is a thousand, promised, jobs really worth it?

The Renzi deal is a whole differnet 'ball game'. If the allegations are true, then he needs to be taken out of office.

BTW - I did check the local rag's web site again. They had an article on 4/27/07 but, it didn't go into the details as much as the WSJ's article. They mention stuff about Renzi's envolvement, but never go into how the deal was completed with the help of BB & Nappy and how the deal shouldn't have gone through because the land was protected (like the WSJ does).

David C
04-29-2007, 03:35 PM
Just for claiification, it was on the front page of the WSJ and no mention of it in the local rag.... Let's see, front page of a national publication and no mention in a local publication, hmmmmm something doesn't seem right.

This is standard operating procedure for the media now. I no longer watch TV, and the newspaper is only good for cleaning my windows or catching pet poop.

JamesT
04-29-2007, 05:43 PM
Matt & Sandee, should have a copy of the article.

etropic
04-29-2007, 07:10 PM
wow havnt you guys ever seen "Mr.s Smith goes to Washington" !! lol

Was out there today on the trail. Hadn't seen the latest drilling rig before sitting right in the middle of the trail before the drop to the rock fin. There were 5 guys working there (sunday). They waved when we went by...

and there are littlre green "TRAIL" signs showing the way through thier rigs...

Allen
04-29-2007, 07:31 PM
I would like to post a copy of all the info you find on this up on my website too!

Matt.. Sandee??

Sandee McCullen
04-29-2007, 09:45 PM
wow havnt you guys ever seen "Mr.s Smith goes to Washington" !! lol

Was out there today on the trail. Hadn't seen the latest drilling rig before sitting right in the middle of the trail before the drop to the rock fin. There were 5 guys working there (sunday). They waved when we went by...

and there are littlre green "TRAIL" signs showing the way through thier rigs...

Resolution Copper has had several "drilling sites" in the area for a number of years. There's the big one at the top of the hill about a mile past Oak Flats Campground and several back near the Powerline Hill and the flats. The operation they're intending is to be completely undergound with robots doing the mining...... there won't be an open pit thusly they were willing to allow OHV on the property within safety areas around their sites. A sort time ago someone from one of the drilling sites behind Oak Flats had told some 4-Wheelers they could not enter..... trails were closed. After speaking with Globe Ranger District they assure me that problem has been taken care of. Trails are open we just cannot trespass onto their permitted sites where posted. Will be interesting to see where this land trade goes............... for OHV it would be great but the fight with the enviros and evidently the Indians, with added political plays, doesn't look promising.

Don't forget................. Globe District is just starting into their travel plans so we MUST indicate our trails in the area. Their OLD plans from the late 80's do not reflect a fraction of the trails used today. If we don't identify them we won't ever have them. Stay involved.

rockclimber
04-30-2007, 03:00 PM
This is a situation the rock climbers in the area have been fighting over for about 3 years. If the exchange goes through all of this land will belong to RCC and they will swap for a greater amount of land. They have made concessions to the climbers but I hate to see an area as awesome and unigue as Oak Flat get destroyed. The Climbers put together a coolition to fight for the land but it seems that everyone has pretty much accepted the loss of the area. Climbers have been given access to the property for at least another 4 years if the deal goes through. I wouldn't expect the same treatment for my jeep without a huge push from offroaders though. You can learn more on the climbers deal at http://www.friendsofqueencreek.com/

RokNRich
04-30-2007, 03:16 PM
http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB117708053389976977-lMyQjAxMDE3NzI3MDAyODAwWj.html

Excerpt:


In exchange for supporting the bill, the local congressman, Rick Renzi, a Republican, insisted on something in return: He wanted Resolution to buy, as part of the land swap, a 480-acre alfalfa field near his hometown of Sierra Vista, according to documents and people involved in the deal.

AZCentral:

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0621rockpark0621.html

k7mto
04-30-2007, 03:23 PM
I would like to post a copy of all the info you find on this up on my website too!

Matt.. Sandee??

I can fwd the copy James sent me or you can just have James send you a copy too. PM me or James your email addy.

JamesT
04-30-2007, 07:04 PM
Thanks for the link Rich:


Thousands of acres of public land worth hundreds of millions of dollars change hands each year through narrow special-interest bills. There is little public scrutiny, and often no vote is recorded in Congress.

I love this, no one is held accountable. :rolleyes:


The proposed Arizona land exchange would sweep aside a 1954 order by President Eisenhower protecting national forest in the area, including Oak Flats, a campground located above the proposed mine. "Yet another piece of land that was being 'permanently' protected is being put on the block because a private interest has use for it," Janine Blaeloch, director of the nonprofit Western Lands Project, complained to Congress last year.

I still think this needs investigating, almost more than Renzi's partner's 480 acres.


Resolution, which declined to comment about its contacts with Mr. Renzi, has said it hopes to sink 7,000-foot shafts into the ground to reach the rich vein of copper ore. It has worked for years to win support for the mine, reaching out to local officials, environmentalists and rock-climbing groups. Arizona's governor and most members of its congressional delegation are backers. The governor told a Senate hearing last year the project could bring 1,000 jobs and $1 billion or more to the state's economy.

This was what I was talking about above: they want all this drilling to go on here, because of the jobs, but they will fight drilling for oil in Alaska. Makes no sense...
We need to get rid of our dependence on foreign oil, so we can keep out nose out of the middle-east. No one gets it...

RokNRich
04-30-2007, 08:39 PM
I questioned this land swap as soon as I heard about it (2-3 years ago ??). The word on the street was it was too late, a done deal, and people in Superior need jobs. :rolleyes:

I've yet to hear of a land swap in AZ (and they happen all the time), where some politician and his cronies didn't get rich and the taxpayers of AZ didn't get screwed. :mad:

These guys have been keeping an eye on things over there http://www.friendsofqueencreek.com/ , I think it was posted earlier, but worth a look if you haven't seen it.

zman
05-01-2007, 04:00 PM
This was what I was talking about above: they want all this drilling to go on here, because of the jobs, but they will fight drilling for oil in Alaska. Makes no sense...
We need to get rid of our dependence on foreign oil, so we can keep out nose out of the middle-east. No one gets it...

I'm against drilling in Alaska. I want to dry out the middle east first, then we can tap into our own oil. ;)

zman

Cave Gimp
05-09-2007, 09:26 AM
Just say this in the Republic:
http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/0509biz-resolution0509.html

Allen
05-09-2007, 12:33 PM
We hear first that it is too late to do anything..... and now that nothing has passed! Time to do somthing!

06GrnRubi
05-09-2007, 01:22 PM
Here is another artickle about this issue, but no where did I see anything about what would happen to Oak Flats.

I wonder why?

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/0509wed1-09.html

Sandee McCullen
05-09-2007, 01:59 PM
Here is another artickle about this issue, but no where did I see anything about what would happen to Oak Flats.

I wonder why?

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/0509wed1-09.html

Thanks for the article. Oak Flats is very definitely involved in the 3000 acres Resolution wants. Looks as though they're running fast and furious to find a sponsor. Will be interesting to see if this gets back into legislation this late in the session........... maybe next years legislation session. We'll probably all be grey topped by the time anything happens.

RE OHV keeping in touch with Resolution Copper........ we do and will continue.

LauraA
07-18-2007, 07:46 AM
This was on another forum so I thought I'd pass it along and reopen this important thread.

Hi Everyone,

Will you folks please sign our online petition?

Thanks.

The Concerned Citizens and Retired Miners Group in Superior, Arizona is very concerned regarding the potential swap of one of the most stunning recreational sites in the world-located just 5 miles East of Superior-Oak Flat Campground. Located in the Tonto National Forest, Oak Flat Campground was set aside for recreational purposes by Executive Order from President Dwight Eisenhower in 1955 and was to be protected from future development, and in particular, inviolate to mining. Now Resolution Copper Company, a foreign-owned mining company, wants to own this land. They have taken a proposed land swap to Congress and bypassed the public process. If this proposed legislation passes and the mine owns this spectacular area, it will be excluded from public visitation and recreation-and it will be destroyed! We urge you as members of the public who care about what happens to our treasured public lands to speak out against this land swap. Sign our petition and pass it along to your friends and neighbors. Thank you. We need 20,000 signatures in 30 days on a petition to stop Congress giving great public land--and the sacred Apache Leap over to a mining company. Please sign and send to at least 20 people in U.S. This is a national issue! All the details are at http://www.mining-law-reform.info/ www.mining-law-reform.info website, or you can link directly to the petition: http://www.petitiononline.com/coop2468/petition.html http://www.petitiononline.com/coop2468/petition.html

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This seemed like a worthy cause to get involved in. It will only take a few minutes, and if everyone sends it to the people in their email address's, it might just make a difference.

In numbers, there is strength. Perhaps, even enough power to change an entire government's thinking.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

Sandee McCullen
07-18-2007, 10:26 AM
I don't suggest signing or supporting this. It's coming from a "greenies" group as well as the Native Americans that also claim we cannot drive through Lower Woodpecker because we "break their aura with the land". We have been in contact with RC for over a year and have not received the same story as this group portrays.

We've been told (by RC) a completely different story regarding OHV use. Will will post more as I know it.

Oc1paddler
07-19-2007, 01:30 PM
We as a group need to come to our senses! As well as the so called Greenies!! Just because the petitions are sponsored by the native Americans doesn't mean that they are bad. Devils Canyon is a pretty cool place, with at least 6 different hawk nest, as well several species of birds on the watch list that winter their. Not to mention the thing that attracts most people on this list, some pretty fun four wheeling! Iam sure that most people haven't taken the time to hike down Thur Devils Canyon, but its a pretty incredible riparian area. Even if, and I say IF the canyon and the trails are still accessible their is a great chance that they will be ruined by byproducts from the mining! Say that they agree to leave the trails open. What do you think the penalties will be for them cutting off access? Most likely nothing!! I also don't think that the trail will be nearly as fun if all the scenery is mining slag. I love four wheeling, but probably wouldn't do it, it if it was all on man made courses. I love pulling the jeeps up, breaking out the chairs, and looking at something other than mine slag while eating my lunch. Here are some links to websites and the petition. http://www.arizona.sierraclub.org/conservation/forest_managment/LANDSWAPTHREATENS.pdf or at http://www.mining-law-reform.info/ or you can link directly to the petition: www.petitiononline.com/coop2468/petition.html

Iam not trying to convince people that they should sign, just that they should make an educated decision based on the facts not on what the perceived enemy is sponsoring. Just because you agree on the Oak Flats deal doesn't mean that your in favor of losing Lower Woodpecker.

Allen
07-19-2007, 07:00 PM
I cant support a petition that would claim it as an indian sacred monument. Although it has drawings and other indian sites amongst it, it is currently OPEN public land! It had been in the public hands for years and I dont want to sign a petition that might give indians the idea that they should close it to make another tourist attraction! The petrogliphs on the wall have survived the last 200 years and will continue to!


Get a petition that mentions the american public AND the indian tribes support blocking this swap and I'll sign it!

GRUNT
07-19-2007, 09:29 PM
What's the deal here, can we break it down for the slower people like me? I get what the mining company wants, ore.
1. What does the mining company say? (open for OHV indefinitly?)
2. What do the greenies say?
3. What will it take to keep open for everyone?
4. Didn't someone say it did not pass this year? If true, didn't they also say Rick R. was going to be investigated for this shady deal?
-Is he a Republican? If so, I am sooo embarrassed. These guys are killin' us!

Sandee McCullen
07-19-2007, 10:42 PM
What's the deal here, can we break it down for the slower people like me? I get what the mining company wants, ore.
1. What does the mining company say? (open for OHV indefinitly?)
2. What do the greenies say?
3. What will it take to keep open for everyone?
4. Didn't someone say it did not pass this year? If true, didn't they also say Rick R. was going to be investigated for this shady deal?
-Is he a Republican? If so, I am sooo embarrassed. These guys are killin' us!

1) Communications with RC have stated they would continue to allow OHV recreation as well as help and/or DO trails or recreation sites for us. By the time OHV had heard of this action the enviros had scammed $7M pledge from RC as well as 2000 acres of similar lands near Winkleman to build a non-motorized play area and to encompass the alleged lost rock "climbing" they supposedly were losing within Devils Canyon. The message from RC was these guys were NOT going to lose Devils Canyon any more than OHV would lose Oak Flats area. What they wanted was "SUPPORT" for the trade. The last I've heard is RC is still willing to work with OHV.

2) "Greenies" want THEIR recreation retained but ALL OHV CLOSED................... everywhere.

3) Continuing negotiations with RC.............

4) The land trade did not even re-enter legislation this year and although Renzi was the original pusher of this exchange, the investigation has nothing to do with this exchange other than it brought "issues" to light.......... If they can hang Renzi re "something" his credibility is crushed. It is my understanding Renzi will not be pushing this bill now.

Personally I believe there are some really GOOD exchanges involved in this exchange. Most of the problems re Oak Flats is Renzi went over the heads of local Forest Service so that immediately set a bad light......... (how dare someone question or go over an "agency") Also, what I've seen and read regarding the plans is this is not an open "pit" and any/all removable product will be hauled out to a contained site. Nothing will be dropped nor seen in this area.?????????????? Anyone see any of the Globe / Miami maps of the countryside prior to the pit mines? It was identical to Oak Flats.......... it's all beautiful country and contain just about the same number of cultural and/or historical and/or scenic vistas. If they can do mining that is necessary to our countries economy and leave the vistas nearly as they are today, is this bad?

Re the Indians................... they believe ALL petroglyphs and/or areas are sacred. These lands are PUBLIC. There is a Wilderness area nearby that is protected for pristene, quiet, non-motorized recreation. If the miners, ranchers and recreationists can "work together" to SHARE PUBLIC LANDS in a respectful and responsible way why shouldn't we be able to do this?

Mining is for the economy of our country as well as the economy of the local communities. Mining process' are under massive control these days and our country needs to bend a bit to enable us to start supporting ourselves. EVERY plant, blade of grass or acre does NOT need to be protected from everything.

I will keep up to date re communications with RC but hopefully OHV will not support this petition for the time being.

rockclimber
07-20-2007, 09:20 AM
[QUOTE=Sandee McCullen;201173]1) Communications with RC have stated they would continue to allow OHV recreation as well as help and/or DO trails or recreation sites for us. By the time OHV had heard of this action the enviros had scammed $7M pledge from RC as well as 2000 acres of similar lands near Winkleman to build a non-motorized play area and to encompass the alleged lost rock "climbing" they supposedly were losing within Devils Canyon. The message from RC was these guys were NOT going to lose Devils Canyon any more than OHV would lose Oak Flats area. What they wanted was "SUPPORT" for the trade. The last I've heard is RC is still willing to work with OHV.[QUOTE]

The money and land that the rock climbers gained from RC is actually the land that the Arizona rock climbing park is proposed for and is there because the rock climber are losing a large portion of climbing. The areas that concern rock climbers are up by the actual Magma Mine that is already in place. These are areas that we call Eurodog Valley and the Mine. There are several hundred routes up here that will be lost and some that we have already been denied access to. The rock climbers are not against the OHV areas but are all about protecting there assets. The area the are supposed to get in exchange I actually had to use my Jeep to get to and had a great run up some little mining roads on the side of the Dripping Springs Mtns. Once the mining begins access may become an issue for OHV because the method the propose is to block cave mine and a level so deep they are not even sure how they are going to get to the copper. The block caving will cave an area out under the copper and then let the copper fall into it. This will allow the whole area above the copper to drop and settle and it is suspected the top will cave and wrinkle. When this begins to happen they will not be allowing anybody on top of it.

I will oppose this land exchange just because this area was set aside by presidential order to protect it from mining. This is an incredibly beautiful area and a great asset to the state.

Chad
Rock climbing is my gig
Jeeping is how I get there
The best of both worlds