Winch line failure

[Stu Olson]

Over the past week, two relatively lengthy threads appeared in regards to synthetic winch rope failures. Having just put synthetic line on my TJ, it raised some concern on my part.....what the heck is going on?

With permission obtained from those involved, I copied photos from the threads and summarized the large number of pages down to just two and put them on my site. With some technical input from Jon at winchline.com, I got some additional information that was woven into the write-up..

For now, it can be seen at http://www.stu-offroad.com/recovery/winchline/winchline-6.htm

It was and still is my intent to not point fingers at anyone but rather to provide a write-up that increases everyone's understanding of why it happened and the underlying circumstances surrounding it. During my discussions with Jon, I learned a number of things I didn't know before.....so that is a good thing for sure. :)

[desertdawg]

Very informative write up Stu! I definitely learned my lesson and hope others will learn from my mistake.

[desertfabmotors]

Thank's Stu,

Very good information. :)

[mbuckner]

Hello Stu,

Is the synthetic winch rope more sensitive to abrasive use than the
wire strand cables ?

Best regards,

Mike

[rockwerks]

Hello Stu,

Is the synthetic winch rope more sensitive to abrasive use than the
wire strand cables ?

Best regards,

Mike

YES! you are to never let the rope rub while winching. Use a line protector also

[mingoglia]

Hello Stu,

Is the synthetic winch rope more sensitive to abrasive use than the
wire strand cables ?

Best regards,

Mike

Pull out your pocket knife and try to cut a steel winch line, then pull out that same pocket knife and try cutting a synthetic winch line.... In that test, holds your answer. :D :D

[OlneyJeeps]

Pull out your pocket knife and try to cut a steel winch line, then pull out that same pocket knife and try cutting a synthetic winch line.... In that test, holds your answer. :D :D

ok, was just illustration but people dont realize how any edge (even/expecially your bumper or spring hanger/shackle) is as effective as knife when you apply a couple to several thousand pounds stress on it...

applies to recovery/tow straps as well... hook to tow hook or chain... NEVER wrap on bumper

ALWAYS use safety blanket/weight

just my .02

[Antman]

A very good write up Stu and thanks for doing it.

I am just glad no one was hurt any worse than they were. Dan had his leg x rayed and it isn't broken.
The doctor said it will take a few weeks to get back to normal on it though.


The HCR boys were lucky and hopefully we all learned from their experiences,
along with Desertdawg.

[Huck]

Stu,
Thanks for the smile. Its been a bit since I've wheeled with Bud (rocrubi) and seeing his picture in the write up, put a smile on my face. Jon made my vehicle recovery strap. Its used to secure a winchline to various vehicle tubing for recovery/anchor points.
Good stuff,
Huck

[adventurr2]

Can I ask a question about the synthetic winch line? Why would you change from a steel cable to a rope? Is it for weight or just cuz? I'm just curious. It doesn't seem right.
Thanks Guys/Gals!!
Duane!:confused:

[vtchopper]

Great write up Stu!!! I too just put a synthetic line on my Jeep... I have to go and double check my self to make sure I put it on correctly... I did follow the directions :D
JEM

[Stu Olson]

In another e-mail exchange with Jon, he said they are developing a new winch line protector that can be wrapped onto the line at the time it is needed and then removed and put into the recovery bag until next time.

This was done because the heavy duty line protector that they have reduces the space on the drum by about 10'......so folks who were running 100' of 3/8" Amsteel blue can only spool 90' onto the drum. He indicated some folks are unhappy giving up the drum space so that is the reasoning behind making this alternative protector.

It is expected to be out later this summer. When they come out, I'll get one and we can see what it looks like. I'm thinking I'll be keeping one with my recovery gear for sure.

Here is a photo of the two current protectors that are available. I have the one on the left. The heavy duty version is on the right.

http://www.stu-offroad.com/recovery/winchline/winchline-29.jpg

[Stu Olson]

Can I ask a question about the synthetic winch line? Why would you change from a steel cable to a rope? Is it for weight or just cuz? I'm just curious. It doesn't seem right.
Thanks Guys/Gals!!
Duane!:confused:
Take a few minutes and read this write-up.....it should answer your question and then some.

http://www.stu-offroad.com/recovery/winchline/winchline-1.htm

[T.C.'S TOY]

Over the past week, two relatively lengthy threads appeared in regards to synthetic winch rope failures. Having just put synthetic line on my TJ, it raised some concern on my part.....what the heck is going on?

With permission obtained from those involved, I copied photos from the threads and summarized the large number of pages down to just two and put them on my site. With some technical input from Jon at winchline.com, I got some additional information that was woven into the write-up..

For now, it can be seen at http://www.stu-offroad.com/recovery/winchline/winchline-6.htm

It was and still is my intent to not point fingers at anyone but rather to provide a write-up that increases everyone's understanding of why it happened and the underlying circumstances surrounding it. During my discussions with Jon, I learned a number of things I didn't know before.....so that is a good thing for sure. :)

Thanks Stu for taking this under your arm as my friend Dan is still on crutches and iam still gimping around as well,can't believe a new line never pulled off the spool would do this.....T.C.:)

[TRobertsRN]

Stu,

I need to go to your site more often. Another great write up.

Thanks,

[Stomper]

In the fire service any type of life safety rope, usually all synthetic now, is taken out of service if it is even stepped on. I would regard synthetic winch line as a life safety rope. When I get my winch it will have steel cable.

[Antman]

In another e-mail exchange with Jon, he said they are developing a new winch line protector that can be wrapped onto the line at the time it is needed and then removed and put into the recovery bag until next time.

This was done because the heavy duty line protector that they have reduces the space on the drum by about 10'......so folks who were running 100' of 3/8" Amsteel blue can only spool 90' onto the drum. He indicated some folks are unhappy giving up the drum space so that is the reasoning behind making this alternative protector.

It is expected to be out later this summer. When they come out, I'll get one and we can see what it looks like. I'm thinking I'll be keeping one with my recovery gear for sure.

Here is a photo of the two current protectors that are available. I have the one on the left. The heavy duty version is on the right.

http://www.stu-offroad.com/recovery/winchline/winchline-29.jpg

One thing you may ask Jon is how do you clean your winch rope? In the
tower industry we have rope washers for our Kern/Mantle and double braid
lines. The ropes we use in our instruction classes get sent back to the
warehouse where they are inspected and washed if needed.

I would think the time would come when you would need to do this with
your winch rope, hence the question. :)

[WalterD]

Nice write-up, but I have a question. Maybe I missed something, in your article you said, "the synthetic line stores virtually no energy while under tension from the winch" but in previous posts regarding Wayco in Moab. It was said that it it sounded like a shotgun going off and someone even had to go to the hospital. I wouldn't mind dropping 20lbs off the front end of my Jeep. But not totally convinced.
Thanks Walter

[mingoglia]

Nice write-up, but I have a question. Maybe I missed something, in your article you said, "the synthetic line stores virtually no energy while under tension from the winch" but in previous posts regarding Wayco in Moab. It was said that it it sounded like a shotgun going off and someone even had to go to the hospital. I wouldn't mind dropping 20lbs off the front end of my Jeep. But not totally convinced.
Thanks Walter

IMHO the design of Masterpull inherently stores more energy than the winch line that winchinline.com carries (Amsteel Blue). I believe this to be what caused this. He was using a treesaver as an anchor point which shouldn't have stored much energy. A tree saver will store a tad bit more energy than a piece of Amsteel but not enough to cause that backlash. Now if it was a kinetic recovery strap that's another story.

[adventurr2]

Thanks Stu!!
I understand now. Another good safety item. Cool!
Great info about the Snythetic Line. I learned something new!!
Thank You!!

[desertfabmotors]

For the record, steel cable will snap also, I snapped a brand new cable last year which missed take a friends head off by inches.

Also if steel cable has a kink, it is no good and not safe to use.

There are pro's and con's to both types of cable. Also use common sense and always think safety.;)

[neZZr]

Nice write-up, but I have a question. Maybe I missed something, in your article you said, "the synthetic line stores virtually no energy while under tension from the winch" but in previous posts regarding Wayco in Moab. It was said that it it sounded like a shotgun going off and someone even had to go to the hospital. I wouldn't mind dropping 20lbs off the front end of my Jeep. But not totally convinced.
Thanks Walter
I don't remember reading anyone post where the person was standing? If it was rigged as shown in that picture of the anchor, and the winch rope failed, the hook would have shot in the opposite direction... so does anyone know if the person was standing behind the anchor point?

[UGROWUP]

My question is can you still do everything with a synthetic roap that yuo can with a steel cable. Like doubling over the line to incress pull capacity, using a second pully for the really akward pulls? That kind of thing.

[neZZr]

My question is can you still do everything with a synthetic roap that yuo can with a steel cable. Like doubling over the line to incress pull capacity, using a second pully for the really akward pulls? That kind of thing.

Sure, as long as the pulley in the snatch block has no burrs on the roller.

[Renob]

I was in the steel cable only camp for some time but after many line kinks and hand cutting frays (even while wearing gloves) I changed to the Amsteel Blue synthetic line and don't think I will ever go back.

I use a clevis shackle on the end instead of a hook. Just treat it like you would, any fine piece of equipment and you will be fine.

[UGROWUP]

That pretty much answers my question. Mind made up. Amsteel Blue it is.

[Wayco]

Let me see if I can organize my thoughts on this thread, since I'm a contributor.:o
1. It appears that the tree strap may have been responsible for some of the energy that caused Dan & TC's injury. Above everything else that happened that day, these injuries drag on my conscience the most. :( Stu's research indicates that the Warn tree strap is made of Nylon. Read his excellent article and see why this is a BAD thing.
2. If my butt wasn't clenched firmly in the seat, I feel that I could have affected the the recovery in a positive way. I have a rock shield that could have protected the rope, but in the heat of the moment, failed to mention it. I also (almost always) clear everyone away from the area around the line in use.
3. The operator of a winch should be able to see the entire operation. I failed in this regard too. My handy little "in cab winch controller" allowed me to control my winch without seeing what it was doing, or where I was going. BIG MISTAKE! If you have one of these devices, (mine was installed the week before the trip) be sure you can see what is going on before you operate it.
I'm in Renob's camp on this, I don't even want to think about the damage a steel cable would have caused in this situation. Some of you may think that it wouldn't snap, would you like to bet your buddy's life on that? I replaced my cable because it was damaged, everyone of us should inspect our line after every use....
Lessons learned:
Never let a synthetic rope come in contact with ANYTHING sharp or abrasive.
Clear the area around the recovery before you touch the winch control. As the operator, it is YOUR responsibility!
Never operate a winch without a clear view of the entire operation. If this is not possible, use a spotter that can communicate directly with you. And be sure that everyone involved has a good understanding of what to look for.
I have learned a lot from this incident. Nothing like your own stupid mistakes hurting friends to drive a point home. :( I am sincerely sorry for the injury caused due to my actions. I hope that we all can learn from all the discussion that this event has caused.
I will replace my line with another synthetic rope, probably a Master-pull superline, since it has a sheath to protect it from abrasion. I also picked up a "rock line" from Jon at www.winchline.com. I urge you all to really think about these posts when you start a recovery.

[SavageSun4x4]

IMHO the design of Masterpull inherently stores more energy than the winch line that winchinline.com carries (Amsteel Blue).
Please address the design flaw you say is there.

Masterpull line has absolute minimal stretch as manufactured and it is then heated and pre-stretched to eliminate any stretch inherent in the basic rope itself.

Masterpull is also woven in such a way as to eliminate any torque or rotational forces when pulling or when released.

If you are concerned about pulling power then check out this chart: http://www.masterpull.com/cpage.cfm?cpid=197

If you want the absolute best in a rope for Moab Arizona or the rocks, then you want Masterpull Superline XD: http://www.masterpull.com/results.cfm?catid=1760

This rope comes with a braided cover made of synthetic fiber providing excellent abrasion resistance to rocks, sharp, hard surfaces and UV rays. This also protects the inner core completely from mud, sand, dirt. M-P Superline is the most advanced of any other synthetic winch line manufactured today.

Emil, the owner of Masterpull knows his stuff on ropes, in fact that is is background and career. He sold ropes to the offshore oil industry in Europe's North Sea.

I run the Superline XD, have put it thru it paces and pulled at or near the capacity of my winch not more than a few yards from where Wayco flopped in extracting a flopped CJ back down the canyon. Also in pulling myself and then a floundered rig up-stream in the Aqua Fria. I am sure most of you have seen the pics.

Masterpull stands behind their product 100%. I send my rope back every other year for inspection and repair. One year I had to send it back due to fault of my own where I had ingested the rope into my fairlead and had to cut the rope off. Every time Masterpull inspects, makes needed repairs and ships it back within 7 business days...never a cost to me.

My winch would not have any rope on it besides the Masterpull Superline XD.

This is not to say anything negative about any other product on the market.

DISCLAIMER: I purchased my Masterpull Superline XD from Emil and I have known him and his company for nearly 5 years. I did receive a discount when I bought it of approx. $54 as I got the 100' ft for the same price as 85' foot. Other than that I receive no other monies or goods from Masterpull.

[T.C.'S TOY]

I don't remember reading anyone post where the person was standing? If it was rigged as shown in that picture of the anchor, and the winch rope failed, the hook would have shot in the opposite direction... so does anyone know if the person was standing behind the anchor point?

I was standing behind the anchor point and off to wherte i figured it was safe but guess it was not safe enought as the nylon strap clipped me and brought me down.....T.C.:eek:

[Antman]

I was standing behind the anchor point and off to wherte i figured it was safe but guess it was not safe enought as the nylon strap clipped me and brought me down.....T.C.:eek:


This was a good example that, "What you don't know CAN hurt you." Thom, you
guys were very lucky.:eek: Well, a hard lesson was learned by all of us and I
hope many others reading this thread will remember it when they are winching.

What are we gonna do on that waterfall at Payeatt Thom? We need a new
way for winching off of that tree. I don't know if I'll have a "Rock rope" for
the next time yet.

[T.C.'S TOY]

Let me see if I can organize my thoughts on this thread, since I'm a contributor.:o
1. It appears that the tree strap may have been responsible for some of the energy that caused Dan & TC's injury. Above everything else that happened that day, these injuries drag on my conscience the most. :( Stu's research indicates that the Warn tree strap is made of Nylon. Read his excellent article and see why this is a BAD thing.
2. If my butt wasn't clenched firmly in the seat, I feel that I could have affected the the recovery in a positive way. I have a rock shield that could have protected the rope, but in the heat of the moment, failed to mention it. I also (almost always) clear everyone away from the area around the line in use.
3. The operator of a winch should be able to see the entire operation. I failed in this regard too. My handy little "in cab winch controller" allowed me to control my winch without seeing what it was doing, or where I was going. BIG MISTAKE! If you have one of these devices, (mine was installed the week before the trip) be sure you can see what is going on before you operate it.
I'm in Renob's camp on this, I don't even want to think about the damage a steel cable would have caused in this situation. Some of you may think that it wouldn't snap, would you like to bet your buddy's life on that? I replaced my cable because it was damaged, everyone of us should inspect our line after every use....
Lessons learned:
Never let a synthetic rope come in contact with ANYTHING sharp or abrasive.
Clear the area around the recovery before you touch the winch control. As the operator, it is YOUR responsibility!
Never operate a winch without a clear view of the entire operation. If this is not possible, use a spotter that can communicate directly with you. And be sure that everyone involved has a good understanding of what to look for.
I have learned a lot from this incident. Nothing like your own stupid mistakes hurting friends to drive a point home. :( I am sincerely sorry for the injury caused due to my actions. I hope that we all can learn from all the discussion that this event has caused.
I will replace my line with another synthetic rope, probably a Master-pull superline, since it has a sheath to protect it from abrasion. I also picked up a "rock line" from Jon at www.winchline.com. I urge you all to really think about these posts when you start a recovery.

Wayco,stop blameing yourself for what went wrong on the trail we sould all learn from our mistakes Dan or i hold no bones agains"t you and would wheel with you on anything,you did a great job on wheeling in Moab and i think everyone of us did something that was out of the safety issue,we were all at fault not just you.....please lets keep wheeling together ....T.C.'S TOY:)

[Wayco]

This was a good example that, "What you don't know CAN hurt you." Thom, you
guys were very lucky.:eek: Well, a hard lesson was learned by all of us and I
hope many others reading this thread will remember it when they are winching.

What are we gonna do on that waterfall at Payeatt Thom? We need a new
way for winching off of that tree. I don't know if I'll have a "Rock rope" for
the next time yet.

Wayco,stop blameing yourself for what went wrong on the trail we sould all learn from our mistakes Dan or i hold no bones agains"t you and would wheel with you on anything,you did a great job on wheeling in Moab and i think everyone of us did something that was out of the safety issue,we were all at fault not just you.....please lets keep wheeling together ....T.C.'S TOY:)

No problem, I have a solution for both of these issues. I just ordered a Rock rope from www.winchline.com. You can invite me up to do Payeatt (OH NO, ANOTHER TRAIL STARTING WITH P!!!) and we will still be wheeling together TC. :) So don't worry about me, Hyjak is back up and running, we still on for the cracks next month?
I also have a special T-shirt from that trip, Rich and Kathy were just over for dinner and gave it to me. Pic's later.

[mingoglia]

I wouldn't beat yourself up Wayne; the way I see it, the only thing you did wrong was not using a sheath over the endge of the rock. Although the rock rope will store less energy than a tree sling I haven't heard of reports in my research of a tree sling storing but minimum energy. I've spoken with the owner of winchline.com months back and he's a great guy. We mainly spoke about how great we both though the Amsteel product was as I've been using it in other applications for years (and have personally broken it from abrasion (while using it to tow in a jam). I've even used a 3/8" 50' section to pull a f250 with a FS3000 Warrior with a buggy and 120 gallons of water out of the sand when my 3" kinetic recovery strap had failed the weekend before and I hadn't replaced it yet. Anyway, after talking to Jon (at winchline) I determined he was a standup guy but I didn't agree on him with one point (and neither did the manufacturer when I spoke to them... remember, Jon is a distributor just as 4 Wheelers distributes Masterpull). Although I personally have planned on picking up a rock rope since I spoke to Jon months ago I still rely on the 'ol tree strap until I pick one up. I'm on the fence as to his comment of the potential of a tree strap as he has a product to sell and as the owner of the company he may or may not be biased. I will though agree that at the end of the day the rock rope will in fact store less energy and ultimately be safer... but I wouldn't necessarily throw out all the quality tree straps in the mean time....

[Wayco]

Thanks Mike, After reading Stu's article, and talking to Rich, there are several things that will change when I pull my winch line out. Stored energy isn't a big issue if everyone is cleared from the area, and a polyester tree strap would reduce the potential also. From the research that Stu did, Rich and I agree that his is probably nylon.
I will be talking to Masterpull today, depending on what kind of deal they can give me, I will replace my line with the MP XD superline or Amsteel blue. As far as my tree strap goes, it stays in the bag, only to be used on trees. :)

[ROKCRLR]

Over the past week, two relatively lengthy threads appeared in regards to synthetic winch rope failures. Having just put synthetic line on my TJ, it raised some concern on my part.....what the heck is going on?

With permission obtained from those involved, I copied photos from the threads and summarized the large number of pages down to just two and put them on my site. With some technical input from Jon at winchline.com, I got some additional information that was woven into the write-up..

For now, it can be seen at http://www.stu-offroad.com/recovery/winchline/winchline-6.htm

It was and still is my intent to not point fingers at anyone but rather to provide a write-up that increases everyone's understanding of why it happened and the underlying circumstances surrounding it. During my discussions with Jon, I learned a number of things I didn't know before.....so that is a good thing for sure. :)

HEY! My feet are on Stu's website! I'm famous!:D

[Stu Olson]

A comment about the tree strap.....if you have one that stores energy....and someone does since that is what shot back and hit TC and Dan, why keep it for using it on a tree? It would do the exact same thing hooked to a tree as it would hooked to an axle shaft sunk into the ground.

Folks....this thread is NOT about product brands....who makes the best, etc.

It is all about understanding WHAT went wrong and WHY it did.

I also don't agree with "Stored energy isn't a big issue if everyone is cleared from the area". I say this because what happens if you are winching and you have a tree saver in use....that does store energy....and it fails. Will it be heading for you? How can you be clear of the area when you have to be in the area to winch? And I've been in situations where I couldn't see clearly to run the winch and so I handed the winch control to a friend.....so that now puts at least two of us in the area.

I hope I'm not coming across like a ranting lunatic here (ok, so what else is new?) but I just hope everyone understands that reducing the possibility of injury is best done by eliminating those things can can injure.

I realize that TC and Dan picked a bad place to stand....thinking they were out of harms way (if I understood the comments). I've not doubt someone else will do it.....and so if the item that can hurt those folks isn't in the recovery bag, we are taking a big step in the right direction. ;)

OK....I'll put my soapbox away now. :)

[mingoglia]

I was of the opinion that the stored energy that Wayne experienced was due to the Masterpull and not the tree strap. Yeah, everything stores a limited amount of energy and I believe the energy stored in the tree strap was far less than the masterpull.

I have personally had synthetic line fail while using a tree strap and never experienced the kick back that Wayne experienced which is why I made that comment. It's my understanding Stu that up until recently you've used kinetic recovery straps as anchor points. This hardly makes you the expert on such matters and hardly gives you a platform to which to set your soap box...even if you have a website that gives the illusion that you're credible enough to do such a thing. I don't doubt your experience in many issues in the wheeling world but a guy that practiced poor recovery techniques just weeks ago amazes me when he steps up on the soap box. This is exactly why these poor techniques get passed down to others in the community. They see the "senior" members of the Jeep community do it so that's automatically the right way. I'm very very happy you learned the correct way before it was too late. These are the very recovery no no's I discussed in detail when I co-taught our last recovery workshop. Unfortunately IMHO it was by accident that you learned this. You were looking for a product to push on your website and happened to get educated at the same time. You didn't seek out this knowledge. This is exactly the reason I stepped up on the last recovery 101 workshop. I was shocked when I moved into the rock crawling arena at how the people everyone looked up to really had zero idea as to what was safe and not safe. I saw these folks bare-handing wire (and even allowing it to slip through their bare hand), paying out 15' of their 125' of wire while doing hard pulls, not using snatch blocks when necessary (which is most of the time), not using hand signals, not forcing people to step away from the cable, not designating one person to give signals, allowing the wire to spool on one side of the drum, not using solid anchor points, using kinetic recovery straps wrong, not being aware of the circumstances that reduce wire strength, not realizing that a jeep on it's framerails on rock requires between 15-18k lbs of force to get "unstuck", and the list goes on and on and on.

Yeah, I've done stupid things. In fact, I knowingly damaged my steel wire the first pull with my new winch. I did a very short pull that I knew would damage my cable. This was after my formal training, after my hours of research, after my speaking to Warn, Ramsey, Samson Rope, reading all the Army field manuals regarding rigging and recovery. I though knew the risk and in that situation knew I was more than likely sacrificing my wire rope. The thing that amazes me is I still can't believe anyone with common sense would use a kinetic recovery strap to winch... maybe that's why I'm really questioning your skills in recovery. You didn't realize a recovery strap stretches 30%? It even says so on the package. You didn't put two and two together that combining a 30' long piece of gear that's designed to stretch like a rubber band was a band combination to use with a piece of gear that has as high a failure rate as winch line? That sir is why I question you stepping up to the soap box.

Mike

A comment about the tree strap.....if you have one that stores energy....and someone does since that is what shot back and hit TC and Dan, why keep it for using it on a tree? It would do the exact same thing hooked to a tree as it would hooked to an axle shaft sunk into the ground.

Folks....this thread is NOT about product brands....who makes the best, etc.

It is all about understanding WHAT went wrong and WHY it did.

I also don't agree with "Stored energy isn't a big issue if everyone is cleared from the area". I say this because what happens if you are winching and you have a tree saver in use....that does store energy....and it fails. Will it be heading for you? How can you be clear of the area when you have to be in the area to winch? And I've been in situations where I couldn't see clearly to run the winch and so I handed the winch control to a friend.....so that now puts at least two of us in the area.

I hope I'm not coming across like a ranting lunatic here (ok, so what else is new?) but I just hope everyone understands that reducing the possibility of injury is best done by eliminating those things can can injure.

I realize that TC and Dan picked a bad place to stand....thinking they were out of harms way (if I understood the comments). I've not doubt someone else will do it.....and so if the item that can hurt those folks isn't in the recovery bag, we are taking a big step in the right direction. ;)

OK....I'll put my soapbox away now. :)

[Wayco]

I think we are all learning a lot from this incident and hate to see anyone pointing fingers. :(
Mike, I hope that I will be able to attend your next "Recovery 101" class, so that I can practice some of the techniques discussed in the threads that have spawned from my accident. I disagree with you about Masterpull line, if the line was responsible for storing energy, Walt would have received some whiplash too. Remember, he was holding the long end of the line when it failed!
Stu, I e-mailed fiberlink asking about the materials used in the tree strap that I bought from 4 Wheelers, and will post up when I learn more. The "suspect" strap used in Moab was Rich's, and I'm pretty sure it won't be used again, but that is up to Rich.
I just received my "rock rope" from winchline.com, and have spent most of yesterday smoothing the edges of anything on my Jeep that could come in contact with my synthetic winch line. I took off my front bumper and removed my winch and winchplate, smoothed out the slot that the line went through and inspected the entire area. My snatch block had sharp sides on it, they are rounded now. This is what I want to see happen with the info. we have gathered recently, lets all learn from it and improve safety for everyone! :)

[Stu Olson]

It's my understanding Stu that up until recently you've used kinetic recovery straps as anchor points. This hardly makes you the expert on such matters and hardly gives you a platform to which to set your soap box...even if you have a website that gives the illusion that you're credible enough to do such a thing. I don't doubt your experience in many issues in the wheeling world but a guy that practiced poor recovery techniques just weeks ago amazes me when he steps up on the soap box.
Mike,

I didn't realize I ever made a statement that I was an expert. I did mention several times in my write-up that I had made mistakes using the wrong item/technique during a recovery, such as a 30' snatch strap for an anchor. Should I have pretended it never happened and denied it if someone asked?

So excuse the heck out of me for learning something over the past couple of weeks and stepping up on a soap box so as to help raise the awareness of my friends and other Jeepers I do not know. I didn't realize you had to be an expert with zero mistakes in your history before you could help others avoid a potential problem.

I'll gladly step down from the soap box and allow you to continue informing people of their improper recovery practices.



Wayco,

Good idea to check the snatch block for sharp edges, etc. I need to take a look at mine too.

[SavageSun4x4]

I was of the opinion that the stored energy that Wayne experienced was due to the Masterpull and not the tree strap. Yeah, everything stores a limited amount of energy and I believe the energy stored in the tree strap was far less than the masterpull.

That sir is why I question you stepping up to the soap box.

Mike

Mike, you say many sage things that all should follow.

But twice now you have accused Masterpull rope of being the problem and of being inferior to Amsteel Blue. In my post #28 I asked you to qualify the inherent poor design of Masterpull you imply.

I also stated the Masterpull is "heated and pre-stretched" and "woven to eliminate the torque-rotational forces that bring about stored energy". The result, it has one of the lowest retained energy factors of any rope of the market. In fact it is near 0%.

At best you are making a non-participants assumption of what might have happened that day and at worst you are placing blame on a product in circumstances you know nothing about.

"That sir is why I question you stepping up to the soap box."

Finally, if any one is schilling for Amsteel Blue, it sounds as if you are.

[Wayco]

I think we are all learning a lot from this incident and hate to see anyone pointing fingers. :(

DUCK, EVERYBODY! THE BIG GUNS ARE OUT! and I feel like a penknife in this fight....:o

[ob1jeeper]

DUCK, EVERYBODY! THE BIG GUNS ARE OUT! and I feel like a penknife in this fight....:o
Wayne... Not to worry mate... it appears there's already someone who's beat you to the punch with bringing the proverbial pen-knife to a gun fight...:eek: :D :o :p

Does this remind anyone else of the gang of street-toughs who had planned on roughing up on Crocodile Dundee?
.... "That's no knife friend... THIS... is a knife " :eek: :D :D :p

[mingoglia]

Mike, you say many sage things that all should follow.

But twice now you have accused Masterpull rope of being the problem and of being inferior to Amsteel Blue. In my post #28 I asked you to qualify the inherent poor design of Masterpull you imply.

I also stated the Masterpull is "heated and pre-stretched" and "woven to eliminate the torque-rotational forces that bring about stored energy". The result, it has one of the lowest retained energy factors of any rope of the market. In fact it is near 0%.

At best you are making a non-participants assumption of what might have happened that day and at worst you are placing blame on a product in circumstances you know nothing about.

"That sir is why I question you stepping up to the soap box."

Finally, if any one is schilling for Amsteel Blue, it sounds as if you are.

I didn't see your post 28, sorry. I was in San Francisco when you wrote that and I was sporadically hitting the "new posts" button from there, then having to run out before reading everything.

Anyway, I have not broken a Masterpull myself. I have broken a piece of 50' Amsteel while using a ProComp tree strap. I had the thimble on the Amsteal in my receiver hitch (with the hitch pin through it) and the tree strap attached to the front tow hooks of a SuperDuty. Although it didn't just "drop to the ground" literally.... it popped in the air very slightly and dropped. It really didn't have much force behind it. About all it did was get a bit higher than my tailgate before dropping. I was pretty impressed as I was giving it hell just before it broke.

I broke a crappy ARB (or maybe it was Highlift?) tree strap pulling a pine tree out of a yard with my truck (ARB strap was on the base of the tree, a rigging chain in between, and my other pro comp strap around my front tow hook (don't ask me why I had to prove that my diesel truck could pull this tree backwards in high range)... I actually have this event on video although the video was after I had pulled it over and had positioned just the chain around the main root to snap it (and ultimately slip my clutch at the same time. I guess I should have used low range).... :D

Now back to my experience with Masterpull. I've read (perhaps on your website Don?) that Masterpull when under tension turns almost a square shape. That although unverified personally sounds like stretch. When I checked out some Masterpull line over at 4 Wheelers I was curious if the outer material they use to give it far more abrasion resistance than Amsteel and also add to it's ability to have a higher breaking strengh may in fact allow the line to store more energy (all lines store energy, even the Amsteel, but some may store more than others). I've also seen other threads such as Waynes where there was in fact some energy stored in the line. With that being said, I've experienced two instances personally where 2 different tree straps (one of crappy quality and one mainstream one) didn't lash back at all. Knowing that, this is why I question if the majority of the energy was stored by the winch line or the tree strap? I don't know the answer to that, but through process of elimination from my experience with tree straps I tend to side with the tree strap as having less potential to store energy. I guess I should present a disclaimer saying I have not personally used (or know what brand) the brand of tree strap in question... I've only used/experienced 2 brands. Heck I may be completely wrong here. Maybe this tree strap was junk and stored tons of energy? Mine haven't, but Wayne's may have.

One thing we haven't discussed is perhaps the anchor deflected and stored energy? I actually didn't think of that initially but it could definitely have contributed. Someone (Stu?) said it was a buried axle shaft? A stock axle shaft definitely has some deflection to it. Now thinking of that that could possibly be the culprit.

In closing let me once again throw out that winchline.com's rock strap appears to be a great product. It's a standard Amsteal line with loop ends and a very rugged cover. Several months ago when I got my new winchline from them (in the past I've bought my Amsteal from rockstomper.com but liked that Jon had the safety thimble that could purchased already installed) I wanted to buy one but figured I'd wait a bit (transation: my wife was already going to be pissed about the winch line purchase). With these threads going back and forth I may side with being safe rather than sorry and just pick one up. I've been eyeing a second winchline extension anyway and could sneak it in with that. :)

Mike

[mingoglia]

Oh, and Stu, your website is an asset to the Jeep community. I frequently check it out and as you know I even donated back when I met you at your house to buy that oil pan skid. By no means consider this thread my questioning you as a person or your experience in many areas of wheeling. You've definitely contributed hundreds of times more than I have to the Jeeping community and I recognize that as much as anyone else here.

So again, don't take this thread personally.

Mike

[SavageSun4x4]

Now back to my experience with Masterpull. I've read (perhaps on your website Don?) that Masterpull when under tension turns almost a square shape. That although unverified personally sounds like stretch.

Mike
Mike, I have to agree, it does sound like a "stretch" that Masterpull or any line would turn "square" under load:D Certainly I have never seen that and no one has ever read that on my site.

As for the outer sheath around the Masterpull Superline XD, its sole purpose is to protect. MP does not calculate any additional strength factor for its presence. It is not woven into the line itself but rather just an outside covering laying loose.

From my reading and seeing the pics Wayne posted it is my GUESS:

1) Somewhere in the course of events the line was severely abraded. Whether this was done by rock or inner winch surface, I don't know, but it happened. Nor do I know when it occurred.

2) In the course of the pull and as the Jeep rolled and incredible amount of tension was on the line. The line was kinetically "loaded" and the Jeep was in a position to "continue" movement even after the line broke. Now herein lies the rub. The momentum of the Jeep when suddenly released from the tension of the line increases enormously. This causes the rope to "snap". Example: Kids pulling on each end of a rope, suddenly the kids on one end let go. The load on the rope is instantly transfer to the kids holding the other end, they fall, pull rope with them and the rope will snap in their direction.

If we were measuring the pull on the rope, lets say, 11,000 lbs. The rope breaks and the 11,000 lbs of tension is transfered instantly to the Jeep itself. In the case of wire cable the culprit is the "twist" of the cable. As the tension increases the wire wants to untwist and the cable actually becomes slightly longer. If a break occurs the cable want to twist back up and also get shorter and it does so in an expolsive manner. This creates a dangerous, very dangerous situation.

Synthetic rope, if properly designed for this type of pulling will not do that and if make out of the correct materials will show only about <1% elongation. The result is a safer working environment.

That said where does the fault lie? When I apply the PFA [Point of Failure Analysis] paradigm I can not find a defined single POF. What I do see is a series of events that combined most likely led to the failure. I also see far more non-human POF than human intervention causes. Bottom line in this instance I don't think we can blame people, just circumstances common in our sport.

[mingoglia]

Mike, I have to agree, it does sound like a "stretch" that Masterpull or any line would turn "square" under load:D Certainly I have never seen that and no one has ever read that on my site.

As for the outer sheath around the Masterpull Superline XD, its sole purpose is to protect. MP does not calculate any additional strength factor for its presence. It is not woven into the line itself but rather just an outside covering laying loose.

From my reading and seeing the pics Wayne posted it is my GUESS:

1) Somewhere in the course of events the line was severely abraded. Whether this was done by rock or inner winch surface, I don't know, but it happened. Nor do I know when it occurred.

2) In the course of the pull and as the Jeep rolled and incredible amount of tension was on the line. The line was kinetically "loaded" and the Jeep was in a position to "continue" movement even after the line broke. Now herein lies the rub. The momentum of the Jeep when suddenly released from the tension of the line increases enormously. This causes the rope to "snap". Example: Kids pulling on each end of a rope, suddenly the kids on one end let go. The load on the rope is instantly transfer to the kids holding the other end, they fall, pull rope with them and the rope will snap in their direction.

If we were measuring the pull on the rope, lets say, 11,000 lbs. The rope breaks and the 11,000 lbs of tension is transfered instantly to the Jeep itself. In the case of wire cable the culprit is the "twist" of the cable. As the tension increases the wire wants to untwist and the cable actually becomes slightly longer. If a break occurs the cable want to twist back up and also get shorter and it does so in an expolsive manner. This creates a dangerous, very dangerous situation.

Synthetic rope, if properly designed for this type of pulling will not do that and if make out of the correct materials will show only about <1% elongation. The result is a safer working environment.

What are your thoughts on the anchor storing energy? If that was in fact a axle shaft (I haven't gone back and looked at the pics) that too would store a large amount of energy. It would be the equivalent of flicking a pencil across the room off your finger.

Mike

[Antman]

What are your thoughts on the anchor storing energy? If that was in fact a axle shaft (I haven't gone back and looked at the pics) that too would store a large amount of energy. It would be the equivalent of flicking a pencil across the room off your finger.

Mike

IF YOUR TALKING ABOUT wAYCO'S ROLL, THE AXLE SHAFT THERE IS, sorry ofr caps, buried in solid rock up to about the last couple of inches. I don't think there would be any stored energy there.
BTW, I am in Salem and it's 56 degrees outside! :D Gonna have to work in the rain tomorrow though.....:(

[SavageSun4x4]

What are your thoughts on the anchor storing energy? If that was in fact a axle shaft (I haven't gone back and looked at the pics) that too would store a large amount of energy. It would be the equivalent of flicking a pencil across the room off your finger.

Mike
YES!

Most likely part of the problem or circumstance that brought about the poor results.

Having seen that axle stub, but never using or even checking it for looseness I cannot factually say. BUT, axles are made to respond to huge amounts of torque by absorbing them. We see this in the twisting of the splines [a method of axle reading I do not trust]. In my racing days we "chalked" them by drawing a line down the length using chalk and seeing the amount of twist in the entire axle.

All this plus any looseness to be found in the sinkhole it is in and TWANG like a good Jew's Harp...not what we want for a winching point.

[Stu Olson]

Isn't an axle shaft's loading designed to twise, not bend? I was always under the impression that it takes a lot less to bend one than it does to twist it apart....hence the wobbly tire induced by the bent axle shaft.

I would be in the same camp as Bill.....with just a couple of inches sticking up out of the rock, how much bend could you put into it....a few thousandths of an inch....maybe .020" even? Would that amount of deflection cause such a whip lash effect when the line failed?

[Wayco]

Thanks guys, I feel safer already.... :D
Let's look at this picture again: Special thanks to Rich for documenting everything in this post so well.

http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10555&stc=1&d=1177429251

Rich's tree strap is looped around the axle. I think it is a 6'x2" strap that he got from a Warn recovery kit. According to Stu's research, it is probably made of nylon, which means it can stretch as much as 30% before failure. The axle looks well planted, with no more than two inches exposed. The Masterpull line is laying on rock, with an edge of rock laying next to it in the direction that Hyjak is rolling. The line separated almost exactly where that edge of rock is. No doubt in my mind what caused the failure. But who is the guilty party that caused the injury? It was the hook that hit Dan's leg, and it was attached to the tree strap. Dan and TC were standing by the anchor. The long end of the winch line brushed Bart (squatting left of the Jeep) but did no damage, and Walt was holding it as the Jeep went over!:

http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10540&stc=1&d=1177378248

TC said that the part that hit him snapped like a bull whip, but Walt was uninjured. I find it hard to blame the axle, so in the future, I won't be using a tree strap to attach my winch line to any anchor.
I just received my order from winchline.com with the "rock rope", gear bag and D-ring. The rock rope is rated at 19,600 lbs, which is more than my 9.5ti winch can pull, even with the snatch block. I'm still waiting for a reply from Masterpull, but there is a good chance I will replace my line with the 3/8" superline XD. Don recommended it, and has had good results while using it.
Hopefully, Masterpull will give me a good deal, I just spent over $300 for the line that failed, and the superline is $460.
I also e-mailed Fiberlink, the company that makes the recovery straps and tree straps that 4 Wheelers sells. If they tell me that my tree strap will stretch, it's out of the new recovery bag. If anybody knows of a short line that doesn't stretch, I'm looking to upgrade. :)

[SavageSun4x4]

Isn't an axle shaft's loading designed to twise, not bend? I was always under the impression that it takes a lot less to bend one than it does to twist it apart....hence the wobbly tire induced by the bent axle shaft.

I would be in the same camp as Bill.....with just a couple of inches sticking up out of the rock, how much bend could you put into it....a few thousandths of an inch....maybe .020" even? Would that amount of deflection cause such a whip lash effect when the line failed?

In the case of an axle they can bend and twist. The twist is based upon longitudinal forces being applied whereas bending is generally forces that are perpendicular. And, in the case of axles in autos not often seen unless you bend and axle tube. Due to the distribution of force twist vs bend, over the length vs at one point you are correct that bending will take less torque than twisting.

Yes and no. Since neither you, Mike or myself were there to examine the axle shaft we cannot say. Taking Bills opinion into account then we could concur. Sans Bill's objectivity then certainly it is possible for it to bend enough to provide a snap-back.

As I said, I have seen it several times, but never used it nor examined it to ascertain its firmness in the ground. Unless the rock was drilled slightly less diameter than the axle and the shaft was subsequently hammered into the smaller diameter hole, we have no idea how firm it might be.

Regardless any bending at all becomes as contributor, how much, in this case none of us know. I don't think its the sole problem by a long shot. As I said, its a series of contributing factors that developed the issue. Not giving any specific weight to any factor or circumstance.

And this is the best answer us arm-chair quarterbacks can come up with from our vantage point.;)

[mingoglia]

I also e-mailed Fiberlink, the company that makes the recovery straps and tree straps that 4 Wheelers sells. If they tell me that my tree strap will stretch, it's out of the new recovery bag. If anybody knows of a short line that doesn't stretch, I'm looking to upgrade. :)

A recovery strap will stretch up to 30%. A tree strap is not made to stretch like this. I'll concede a bit and say it may stretch enough to cause snapback (to what degree can't be determined without testing your particular strap) in certain situations but I can tell you it won't be 30%. If it was, it would be marketed as a recovery strap (remember, there's basically two types of straps, recovery straps and tow straps. Recovery straps are made to stretch while tow straps are designed not to stretch...or stretch as little as possible). Regardless, your rockline that you got from winchline.com should have a large enough surface area to also be used as a tree saver so that should serve you well and give you piece of mind.

Mike

[mingoglia]

I'm glad we're on the same page Don regarding the axle shaft. If I could point out one thing with steel... let's say this was chromolly even, although it's probably mild steel. Thinkng back to welding class (Don and I were in the same class) axle shafts are very ductile (meaning they can bend without breaking and can bend a certain amount and bounce back). They have to be to put up with the forces applied to them. To use bicyling as an example (hopefully this isn't too much of a stretch). Cannondale used to get a bad rap in the beginning years because their frames were too harsh particularly for smaller riders. This was because their 6061-T6 aluminimum frames didn't "give" like traditional chromolly frames. Well, when you have give, you have stored energy (well assuming this "give" doesn't permanently deform the metal). It's my believe that finding the ideal ductility is what seperates good axles from not so good axles.... so in this example the better the axle for it's intended purpose the worse this axle probably is for a recovery point. Hopefully I didn't stretch this too far. :)

Mike

[SavageSun4x4]

I'm glad we're on the same page Don regarding the axle shaft. If I could point out one thing with steel... let's say this was chromolly even, although it's probably mild steel. Thinkng back to welding class (Don and I were in the same class) axle shafts are very ductile (meaning they can bend without breaking and can bend a certain amount and bounce back). They have to be to put up with the forces applied to them. To use bicyling as an example (hopefully this isn't too much of a stretch). Cannondale used to get a bad rap in the beginning years because their frames were too harsh particularly for smaller riders. This was because their 6061-T6 aluminimum frames didn't "give" like traditional chromolly frames. Well, when you have give, you have stored energy (well assuming this "give" doesn't permanently deform the metal). It's my believe that finding the ideal ductility is what seperates good axles from not so good axles.... so in this example the better the axle for it's intended purpose the worse this axle probably is for a recovery point. Hopefully I didn't stretch this too far. :)

Mike
X2

Whether or not this is a universal true insofar as axle shafts go I am not sure. But out of curiosity I asked a manufacturer of axles "what rockwell hardness is a typical axle shaft?" I was told in the mid 40's.

Most good quality knives are hardened to a Rockwell of about 57-62. In that range you would find that a Rockwell of 57 would be easy/quick to sharpen and have a good flexible blade. A drawback would be its quickness to dull. At a Rockwell of 62 it would be very difficult to sharpen, but when done, would be as sharp as a straight razor, hold an edge for a long time and bend very little before breaking.

So an axle with a Rockwell of mid-40's is going to have an ability to accept a lot of twist before it breaks. I remember pulling the axles at the end of each days racing and looking at the chalk line to see how much it had twisted. There was some kind of rule of the thumb that after x amount of twist it was time to replace it before it exploded on you. Most often they did when coming off the line when dumping the clutch or in the 1-2 shift.

That said, lets assume the axle Wayne used as a winch point deflected only .2 of an inch. The torque build up and subsequent snap-back upon instant torque release could impart a lot of speed to the rope.

Anyone ever "cracked a whip" or popped a rope? An old cotton rope with a knot in the end can inflict a lot of pain and hurt...:eek:

[katvans]

I have posted some new pics of the roll from a different angle taken from a video clip just recently discovered. They show the relationship of the injured to the winch line and winch point.

They are on the Hyjak's Moab adventure thread here:

http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/showthread.php?p=175756#post175756