Anti-wrap Bar Idea, What Do You Think

[UNSTUCK]

So my high(er) HP motor and soft leafs are adding up to some axlewrap. This is something I need to get under control. We have talked a lot about these in the past. Seems like all the new ideas are getting pretty wierd. What do you think of this one:

Imagine an RE long arm kit. The Driver side front axle arm. I don't have room to mount a top and bottom link on top of eachother because my shocks angle towards the center of the body. I thought I could mount the lower link on the axle tube next to the diff. Then mount the upper link on top of the diff in the center of the diff. The upper link would then come down and be welded to the lower link. It would look just like that RE arm. The upper arm angles in towards the center.

I could make the upper link be the main arm, with the lower link being the shorter arm. This would keep the arm more parallel to the ground. I think I would weld a truss over the top of the diff to weld my link to, instead of welding to the diff itself.

Should I use rod ends on all three ends, or just the axle ends, with a bushing on the other end, attached to a shackle on a new cross member? Does the shackle have to point upwards, downwards, straight across...?

In the end, I imagine I would retain all the flex of a RE long arm kit. In otherwords, I shouldn't loose any flex.

Any ideas on making this better?
Thanks,
Josh.

[georgia]

Something like this?

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Anti_wrap_bar/Dcp_2131.jpg

Yep, might just work;) :D

[UNSTUCK]

Something like this?

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Anti_wrap_bar/Dcp_2131.jpg

Yep, might just work;) :D

no pic showed up. Just a red x.

[georgia]

Hmm.strange...I can see it...anyway, here is the link..

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Anti_wrap_bar/antiwrapbar.htm

[xFallen]

The PBB thing is pretty much a conventional ladder bar with a shackle. I think you will find that it will bind at the front end of it.

The device conceived and constructed by Tom Jacobson and Jeff Krause (and others) is the best one I have seen. It is strong, well thought out and very functional. It is also not that complicated to construct.

[zman]

Sounds similar to something Nth makes.

http://nthdegreemobility.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=171&osCsid=6631c0500017d856c1e405e71ecde660

[jeff krause]

This is what I came up with.. in this photo it is not braced on a 45 degree though... Tom's is slightly different but requires a truss over the pumpkin and isn't so much a weld on easy step.... If memory serves me right he used two 3/4" heims with misalignments as well.


http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8659&d=1165850796

http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8602&d=1165593961

next photo show how it will handle articulation

http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8661&d=1165850796

[k7mto]

fwiw, I'll never use another ladder bar connected ONLY to the axle tube. With torque applied to the diff housing and the only opposing force applied to the tube, the stress point becomes the tube/housing connection. This is what caused the demise of my previous rear.

The best solution, imo, incorporate opposing force on the diff housing itself (Bambar), with or without additional attachments to the axle tubes.

If/when I implement another anti-wrap solution, it will be much like Tom's. I like Jeff's concept too but I think it should be attached to the diff housing as well as or instead of the axle tube.

[Tom Jacobson]

Yeah...I served my time with a "conventional" ladder bar and will/can never recommend that design to anyone. Yeah, they eliminate wrap. But have too many negative aspects in terms of design and performance that just aren't worth the trade off. I'd rather be SUA in the back as to run one of them damn ladder bars again.

What me and Jeff essentially did, was find a couple different ways to implement and/or refine the BamBar concept conceived by a few guys on Jeepaholics.

The BamBar concept WORKS. And doesn't limit flex or bind your springs. I built mine on a truss that spans the rear diff cause I thought it seemed pretty easy, and I didn't want to weld to the diff housing. The question I had regarding Jeff's concept was whether or not being offset to one side of the pumpkin would negatively effect the performance of the bar (tilt the jeep when engine torques, only have reaction load on one side of vehicle, etc.).

Spanning the diff (or welding to it) allows the "load link" to be practically centered.

I've pounded my "TomTom Bar" on some pretty hard trails (Overdose, Axle Alley, Collateral Damage, Anaconda, Extacy, Willow Springs) since installation shortly after Christmas, so it's seen ~5months of abuse. I still couldn't be happier. Only wish I had done the bar immediately upon installing my newest SOA springs. I ran a couple weekends with no anti-wrap device and put a little bend in one of my rear main meafs.

You can romp the jeep forward or reverse on pavement and the pinion stays put.

Again...very happy with the design and performance.

Tom

[Oc1paddler]

This is how I did mine. I would think twice about just attaching to the axle tubes. Ive seen them spin to often. The cool thing about the bam bar is that it doesn't seem to limit axle flex like most of the other designs. The difference in how mine works is nothing short of amazing. The ladder bar links are going to severely limit your wheel travel. Hope this helps.

[k7mto]

Pierre - I like that setup. sort of a cross between Tom's and Jeffs. Can you post some more shots showing how the mounting plate(s) are attached to the diff housing?

[jeff krause]

Pierre - I like that setup. sort of a cross between Tom's and Jeffs. Can you post some more shots showing how the mounting plate(s) are attached to the diff housing?


x's 2......

Looks like you made a truss out of some kind of angle iron.... I like it ... may copy

[Oc1paddler]

Here's some pictures of the axle bridge I fabed up. I welded up 2" 25O wall square tubing coped on top of each tube. Then I plated everything with 1/4" plate. Its welded to the tubes as well as to diff housing. I also attached it to the webing on the side of the pinion. Its not the most attractive job but so far it seems to hold up fine. The bar and pivot is all made out of 1/4 dom tubing, and the bushing came from 4 wheelers supply. Let me know if you need more pictures.

[Oc1paddler]

x's 2......

Looks like you made a truss out of some kind of angle iron.... I like it ... may copy

It looks like angle because I ran it past the top because I didnt' want it to be to narrow at the top of the diff. The plate on top is sitting right on top of the diff. The top of the diff is curved but I managed to get about a 3 inch bead from the top plate to the top of the diff. I then cut out a piece to notch around the diff and tie in to the risers on each side. To add some extra strength I made a radius plate and welded it to the sides of the uprights.

[Tom Jacobson]

OK...Mine and Pierre's are actually VERY similar. My truss is just made from tube, while his is made from plate. Mine also attaches to the axle tube on both sides, then has one bar welded to the side/web of the diff housing. I actually think the diff bar is unnecessary on my set-up...but doesn't hurt to be there.

Let me see if I can attach a pic or two.

Tom

[Oc1paddler]

Tom,
Iam trying to see in your picture how many heims you used? Did you get away with just using one at each end of the link? I can't tell from the picture how it handles the axle movement. Iam sure the heims have more twist than the poly bushings but I wasn't sure how much.

[UNSTUCK]

I guess I don't understand what the problem is with a ladder bar. Is it just that they bind when used with leaf springs or is there something else. They work great with coils, or else why would RE use them?
I plan on doing a four link in the near future, so I need something that I can easily get rid of when the four link goes in. Is there a simple way of mounting the bam bar to the axle tube and diff? I guess I need to look at a few different finished products.
Thanks for all the imput guys.

[Oc1paddler]

I guess I don't understand what the problem is with a ladder bar. Is it just that they bind when used with leaf springs or is there something else. They work great with coils, or else why would RE use them?
I plan on doing a four link in the near future, so I need something that I can easily get rid of when the four link goes in. Is there a simple way of mounting the bam bar to the axle tube and diff? I guess I need to look at a few different finished products.
Thanks for all the imput guys.

I'll answer them in the order you asked.
With a ladder bar, it will work fine for compression as long as both wheels go up evenly. Were you run into problems is when you want big flex. I have 16" travel shocks on my rear that are angled in. Crawling I use the majority of the available travel. Now picture one tire jammed up in the wheel well and the other hanging way down. The rear axle is going to be running at something like a fifty degree angle. Now with a ladder bar clamped solidly to the axle and one pivot at the crossmember its going to bind long before fifty degrees. Probably at less then ten degrees. So while it will prevent axle wrap it will also really effect your ability to wheel.

If you use a bridge style mount on your axle you should be able to just weld on some new tabs and be good to go for your new four link. Just plan ahead so that you have room for the future tabs.

[UNSTUCK]

What if all three points use a rod end? Or at least the same joints as a RE kit. Shouldn't I be able to expect the same flex that the RE kit will give you? How come none of these link set ups bind at 10 degrees?

[UNSTUCK]

The best solution, imo, incorporate opposing force on the diff housing itself (Bambar), with or without additional attachments to the axle tubes.

If/when I implement another anti-wrap solution, it will be much like Tom's. I like Jeff's concept too but I think it should be attached to the diff housing as well as or instead of the axle tube.


So here's what I'm thinking. I like Jeff's set up. What if I mount something like that to the top of a diff truss. I would then use a PSC diff gaurd with the tabs that can be welded to the truss and then bolted to the diff gaurd. This would be a very clean way of supporting the diff and the axle tubes. Only thing though is how tall is this getting? I guess I wouldn't need to use such a long upper tube.

https://www.spydercustoms.com/index2.php

Check out the rock ring with the ear tab.
Any thoughts?

[Oc1paddler]

I think it has to do with the travel path. The leaf springs change the arch of travel. With a four link all the joints are the same so as one side drops and moves in the other side would rise and move in the same amount. Iam not sure exactly how to explain it, but I know from reading hundreds of write ups as well as crawling under and around every rig I can that the ladder bars without a left to right joint just don't flex well. I know that this probably doesn't explain it very well. If you want I can show you why mine flexes so well. I think the visual would help explain it. Especially when you see how much movement occurs in the joints on top of the axle. Let me know if you want to check it out. Iam in Scottsdale and Iam going wheeling Sat. in Florence.

[Oc1paddler]

:D So here's what I'm thinking. I like Jeff's set up. What if I mount something like that to the top of a diff truss.

Any thoughts?
That would work fine. The only major difference's between mine and Jeff's are: Mines on a truss and I used two shorter joints on the bottom instead of one long one.
I used two because I wanted to spread the pressure out as far as possible. I don't know if I needed to do that or not, but I didn't want to have to deal with the results if it failed. Pictures of Matt's rearend after he spun his tubes convinced me that a catostrophic failure was a bad thing!!:D

[desertfabmotors]

say four link with a double shackled leaf spring with the spring pad on a piviot. :)

This way there is no wrap at all, and is halfway there if you want to add coilovers later.;)

[k7mto]

Pictures of Matt's rearend after he spun his tubes convinced me that a catostrophic failure was a bad thing!!:D

Funny thing is I didn't even notice it until after I flat towed it back to Gilbert from Payson :eek:

[Tom Jacobson]

Here's an old response I tyyped to a friend asking what was wrong with the typical "ladder bar":

The short version of the story is that the status quo (conventional) bars are fixed at 2 points to the axle, then attached to a shackle up front, right? And that shackle is typically mounted at, or very close to vertical. Still with me? Now, if you buy into my solution, or even to agree that there's a problem with the status quo, you have to agree with me on this following point: the pinion angle doesn't change appreciably when a leaf sprung axle compresses/extends.

If that is true/accepted, then the status quo bar has nowhere to go..especially under compression! It's locked at the axle from rotating, therefore the "point" (end attached to shackle) also must simply move up. But it can't because the shackle is vertical.

My bar and the bambar mount what is effectively the shackle horizontal. So it can go up/down when the suspension moves. The long "shackle" (load link) is still put in tension when the pinion tries to rotate...eliminating wrap. Voila!

And yes, Pierre, I only used 2 heims in my set-up. Wish I could wheel this weekend... :-(

Tom

[jeff krause]

thinking that a person could use some 6x6 x1/4" angle and make a truss over the pumpkin... weld up a couple of tab , sandwick a tube sleeve bushing set up between.... make a x member and a nice stout 'loadlink' and be done with it.....

[UNSTUCK]

say four link with a double shackled leaf spring with the spring pad on a piviot. :)

This way there is no wrap at all, and is halfway there if you want to add coilovers later.;)

I'm liking this idea even better. Why go through all the work of a bambar when soon I will go with coilovers or airshocks?