Banning Joe West from the forum...

[Sedona Jeep School]

I don't know about anyone else, but this Joe guy has sure been posting a lot of frivolous stuff lately. Everything from smoking to bicycles, including smoking bicycles. I mean, who IS this guy? What, does he think he owns the server and works his butt off for us, and invests all kinds of his time and money just so we can have a place to be silly and Jeepy and contribute only our stellar personalities?

I do recall a certain post some time back about drinking wine and posting. Is there such a thing as a PUI (posting under the influence)? Joe? :D

Seriously, nothing but love to you, Joe. We cannot thank you enough for all that you do to enable the existence of this (most of the time) awesome forum--you ROCK!

[Crawldit]

lol I think Joe is bored. I've never seen him post this much in the almost 3 years that I've been on here. I'm loving it. Keep them coming Joe.

[azcharlie]

Thankfully he's not banning anyone for posting under the influence. :D :D

[KnetAZ]

Joe is nothing but trouble. A couple of years ago I posted some general questions about newer Jeeps, and his response was along the line of "Hey, if you are looking at that stuff, you should go check out those new Rubicons that just came out."

Well, I did. All down hill from there. '03 Rubi in my driveway, sold the Jetta. Week-end runs with other Jeepers. Upgrades. Moab. More upgrades. Rubicon. More upgrades. Ouray. Well, you get the picture.

My nephew now thinks my Jeep is the coolest thing since PB&J. Girls want rides to the lake. More Moab. I never had any of these issues before this.

That darn Joe. :D

[SavageSun4x4]

Everything from smoking to bicycles, including smoking bicycles.

Are you saying "someone stop Joe, he's SMOOKIN"!

Maybe he should change his screen name to "Smokin Joe"

[Wildcat455]

Yeah, All that AND I heard the Joe sold his Jeep!!

Aww,heck, I think I just joined the band... :eek:

[AZG23]

He's feeling good after the vacation to Hawaii!! Bill....

[mingoglia]

lol I think Joe is bored. I've never seen him post this much in the almost 3 years that I've been on here. I'm loving it. Keep them coming Joe.

It's good to see. Unfortunately I've seen a handful of other forums go to crap once the forum "owner" stops posting. It's up to him and a select few core moderators to set the tone of the forum. When the tone of the forum is not set by respected people then you HAVE to have discussions about banning people for language. After all, if Joe contributed more, there would be a mutual respect for the man he is rather than most on the forum really not knowing who he is or what he stands for. Since there's really no moderator setting this tone (Stu only posts when it serves him to post, JamesT got run off as a moderator, Don is a bit hard to swallow, apparently Barry isn't a moderator anymore, and I'm not sure about John L). The inmates are now running the show and rules that should be unspoken for such a small group are now having to be forced.

Mike

[YGOHOME]

I think things are going pretty well here

[Joe West]

If anyone bans me... I will change every last one of your Avatars to something I think is funny... and I will lock them so you can't change them back :D

YJunk didn't come out of the closet because he *wanted* to... :D

[Stu Olson]

Since there's really no moderator setting this tone (Stu only posts when it serves him to post, JamesT got run off as a moderator, Don is a bit hard to swallow, apparently Barry isn't a moderator anymore, and I'm not sure about John L).
Perhaps you can answer a question for me......what do you do when you, a moderator, attempt to "set the tone", and some forum user jumps up to complain about it.

Honestly, after a while, it grows old. I come hear daily and read....but not every thread.

So I am open to helpful suggestions as to what to do with a person who apparently just doesn't like it because you simply have moderator attached to your name.

[shannonmac]

in all honesty stu...wouldn't want any of your jobs... :p

[Stu Olson]

in all honesty stu...wouldn't want any of your jobs... :p
I'm still trying to figure out "Stu only posts when it serves him to post". With a comment like that, it sounds like I'm chasing the almighty dollar around here or hustling spare change or mooching cigarettes or perhaps worse. :eek:

Does posting how-to links to my site serve me? :confused: There is no charge to read what I have on-line.

[mingoglia]

Perhaps you can answer a question for me......what do you do when you, a moderator, attempt to "set the tone", and some forum user jumps up to complain about it.

Honestly, after a while, it grows old. I come hear daily and read....but not every thread.

So I am open to helpful suggestions as to what to do with a person who apparently just doesn't like it because you simply have moderator attached to your name.

Let me throw in a little story about another Jeep forum. There is a site called 7slotgrille.com that also has a forum. It's owned by a guy name Nathan that I have an incredible amount of respect for. The site had a pretty good size following and pretty good tech info. It had the typical what I like to call core people. When I talk about core people I'm speaking about the Devilman's of the forum, the Barry King's, Simon, Absolute Joe, and yes, even the Shnipes. These are the people that are always found on the forum, newer guys seem them as the "senior" folks (not calling you old Barry). In the better sites these core folks are moderators (ok, Dennis may be a bit of a punk :D for the role). They're almost like the town guy sitting in his rocking chair anytime you drive by. Someone you grow to respect and emulate as they're always there to help you out and them just always being there for someone allows them to gain a trust and reputation. IMHO, when these core people leave the forum's qualtiy almost immediately goes in the toilet. People start bickering amoungst each other and you start having more off topic than on topic. No one who has the best interest of the forum in mind is setting the topic of the day if you will (and with that tone).

Anyway, back to the story. 7slotgrille didn't have too many moderators, it was mostly Nathan. Nathan ending up getting rid of his Jeep and his participation as the tone setter went away overnight. The site ended up losing the fresh content, losing the new tech articles, then slowly people either started to leave or fight amongst themselves. Because of a disagreement with the "Devilman" of the group (his name was Joel), Joel left. With Joel gone, and Nathan gone the forum started slipping. It didn't break out in war, people just stopped coming by. Now when you visit, sometimes days go by between a single post. It's a shame, it's how I found out about this forum (virtualjeepclub) when I met JamesT on there. Nathan has two other successful forums, one being by far the largest forum for vehicles such as rhinos, ranger's, etc. He participates in the forum (since it currently has his interest) and everything runs smoothly.

Back to your question Stu. You really can't attempt to set the tone. You're never around. Jumping on to post just to "keep order" but not contribute anything else isn't really received well. To make things worse you post once in long time and your post says something to the affect "if I don't like what you post in this thread I'm going to delete...cause after all, I can". You're not part of the community, you're almost a rent-a-cop. Like I said you most likely wouldn't have to manually "set the tone" if you were always the old guy on the rocking chair that the locals have an incredible amount of respect for...so much respect that it's almost like they don't want to let you down.

I laugh when people kiss Joe's butt. He doesn't contribute anything here other than some hardware. The forum isn't difficult to run. When he's applying patches all day he's not sitting in front of the console all day banging his head against the keyboard, he's just waiting for a mysql dump to occur (which is slooow). He kicks it off, then comes back 4 hours later. There shouldn't be that much time involved in running this. I have to ask myself why he keeps the forum? ...and since I don't know the man, I personally and he doesn't appear to really have anything related to Jeeps on the mind I have to ask myself why he has the forum? ...and the only conclusion my feeble mind comes up with is because he turns a profit with sponsorship.

I'm actually in a way regretting my position on Joe as I can actually see his personality as he's actually posting.... maybe he is the man in the rocking chair? If he remains there I can guarantee you the forum will police itself out of respect. If he doesn't remain there he better find some of the few remaining core members that share similar beliefs and make them moderators... it will keep them around and with these core contributors around will come the respect and emulation of newbies that join the forum.

Mike

[Jdemonto@Airpark Jeep Sales]

WOW Mike thats deep.........

Are you saying that you want to a moderator??????? I think not with the poor attitude you have displayed while I have been a member of this forum...:mad:

I had it out with Joe early on and realized that he does alot and I don't think he's here to turn a profit at all..and I do not mind even if he does...Someones got to pay for all the equipment!:D

Jason

[Stu Olson]

Mike....thanks for the response.

I didn't see it as "jumping on to post just to keep order".....what I was referring to was a thread I started. The following was at the end of my first post in that thread:

p.s. If you feel compelled to provide some stupid response, don't. I'll delete it to keep the thread on topic.

I will admit that I tried to set the tone ahead of time and so I am guilty of that.

AZLugz then posted this on the next page....(which he later deleted at some point)

Why would you ask a question like this and expect not to get funny answers and then threaten to delete posts that you do not approve of in your thread.....Kinda sounds like abuse of Mod authority unless something said was against the rules of the board.

I didn't jump into the middle of a thread and get in anyone's face. I clearly stated a parameter for thread participation in my initial post....to keep the thread on topic. Regardless if I am a frequent poster or not, (yes, I only have a little over 1,000 posts here) is that such a difficult request to honor?

I believe I have respect in this forum and I don't remember ever blowing anyone off who asked for help. Heck, Jamie called me twice on Monday on my cell at work to ask me to log into my web site and get her the NAPA part number for a ZJ tie rod conversion.

I don't believe for a minute that the response I got from AZLugz had anything to do with me being a frequent/infrequent poster or not being the town guy in a rocking chair. If you really do believe that was his motivation, then we do differ on that point and we'll have to agree that we disagree.

I am still open to helpful suggestions as to what to do with a person who apparently just doesn't like it because you simply have moderator attached to your name.

[My1stJeep]

Wow, I had not intention of posting in this thread, but just can't stop myself.

Mike I am not sure where you are coming from. The moderators here volunteered, and this new core wave of people you speak of, well they have turned away I think just about every founding member of this club. I have seen over the years the tides turn and while this club used to stand up in spades to help with everything it has turned to cliques. There are some that will go out on a limb to help anyone and everyone, but not the way it used to be, now most have to hope that it is someone from their small group that will come to their rescue cause someone in all the other groups might have been offended and wont' come to their rescue...blah...blah

I for one do not feel that the overall change in the way this club deals with each other has gotten better, or more of the old timers would still be here. Many of which I may not have always agreed with, but I still respected. Now we have far too many that want to play devils advocate, with any ryme or reason other then to get an argument going.

Not sure how much prior to me Stu joined, but I respect him very much, and I know I joined about 2 months after the club was formed, or maybe 3, but it was very early on. I was very reluctant to switch over to the BBS as I was affraid of how this split was going to affect the over all feel, my feelings were right on.

I think Stu or anyone has the right to put comments in their thread in order to try and keep it on target. And while not a moderator I would hope that if I put in a comment like that a moderator would help me clean out posts that did not keep with the theme if it was important to me, the person who started the thread. I think you are making way too much of this, and this is the type of trival stuff and bickering that has driven so many good people away. Leads me to keep considering why I even bust my hump to fight so hard for the land use issues, help try to organize events to change the publics opinion about us and what we do when so few will help and and instead want to worry about someone trying to keep a thread on track and how it may affect them. Maybe it is time to get back to wheeling and let those who like to cause fights here step up and try their hand at the meetings, they seem to like to argue so have at. Defending people like that rights is really getting to bug me when I don't see them doing anything about things that should matter.

As for Joe, I think he should have been banned when he signed up to be an Astronaut... :D

[Wind_Danzer]

I believe I have respect in this forum and I don't remember ever blowing anyone off who asked for help. Heck, Jamie called me twice on Monday on my cell at work to ask me to log into my web site and get her the NAPA part number for a ZJ tie rod conversion.

And I think I did forget to thank you publicly. So thanks Stu for the info and FYI, I thought it was your day off. :o

[Stu Olson]

Jamie.....you are most welcome. If I didn't want to take a call from you, regardless of it being my day off or not, I wouldn't have given you my cell number. ;) You know I'll always help ya!

[mingoglia]

WOW Mike thats deep.........

Are you saying that you want to a moderator??????? I think not with the poor attitude you have displayed while I have been a member of this forum...:mad:

I had it out with Joe early on and realized that he does alot and I don't think he's here to turn a profit at all..and I do not mind even if he does...Someones got to pay for all the equipment!:D

Jason

No, I don't want to be a moderator as that requires time that I don't have. My point is that a forum revolves around good moderators. They're out there and until you find them you'll never have things running as smoothly as one would like.

With regards to paying for the equipment and spending time running the forum, I agree. Unfortunately you can't really quantify what time/money is required as I don't believe you've been in the technology industry and have ever run a mysql db and PHP web server?

With regards to displaying a bad attitude the only time since I've been here that someone could accuse me of that is when issues of forum downtime/upgrades/sponsorship (did I mention downtime) are involved. Perhaps those that have come to my house to wrench, or the guy that I left work early to pull a d35 axle shaft, or those that attending the recovery workshop, or those at 4:30 in the morning at Upper Ajax can comment on my "bad attitude". Once you start taking money from people to run the forum, two consecutive weekends of downtime are unacceptable. These responses are the only time I'll accept someone accusing me of a bad attitude.

Oh, one more thing and Stu can attest to this. I even gave him some money for his site. I believe in putting my money where my mouth is when I come across something useful. I read many of his articles and gave him some money several months back. I don't have a problem with Stu, I just don't believe he has the time to moderate this forum the way it needs to be. Sometimes the best moderation is being active in the discussions as a senior moderator...not necessarily "moderating".

Mike

[Sedona Jeep School]

Wow! Talk about setting a tone..this was supposed to be a thread about having fun with our forum founders, not opening up issues and disagreements with the leadership. I would have shot many of you a long time ago if I was Joe or Stu or Don (though I suspect that JamesT did actually shoot some of us).

And you know what? I hope Joe does make a profit on this someday. Because, if he keeps losing money and time, and getting nothing but CR@P (yes--language violation) from the newer forum surfers, how long do you think we will have this fine forum?

And I don't blame any of them for stepping back from their active posting. I know they still check-in daily, but I know they have lives, and stuff comes up. Besides, it seems like the title "moderator" or "administrator" makes you a target for name-calling with the lower-class forum visitors. By "lower class" I am making no reference to economic status--I am talking about one's ability to communicate respectfully in a group of people with similar interests, and show a little gratitude for those who made the effort to make the gathering possible. I applaud their efforts to keep this forum to a higher standard in the face of a socially deteriorating society.

Thank you and happy trails to everyone who came to this forum to JEEP!

[AZLugz]

I will admit that I tried to set the tone ahead of time and so I am guilty of that.

AZLugz then posted this on the next page....(which he later deleted at some point)



I didn't jump into the middle of a thread and get in anyone's face. I clearly stated a parameter for thread participation in my initial post....to keep the thread on topic. Regardless if I am a frequent poster or not, (yes, I only have a little over 1,000 posts here) is that such a difficult request to honor?

--------------------------------------------
I don't believe for a minute that the response I got from AZLugz had anything to do with me being a frequent/infrequent poster or not being the town guy in a rocking chair. If you really do believe that was his motivation, then we do differ on that point and we'll have to agree that we disagree.





Wow, some one (not quite sure at this point?!?!?) took my comment way out from what I meant, I was stating....I thought.... a friendly yet opinianated comment that i felt that may not be the right way to use Mod power....but it was only an opinion and not a big one, that was why I deleted it. Anyway, no harm was intended by it. As far a Stu and his amount of posting....I have never met him and have nothing against him, I assumed he was a regular poster as I had seen his name a lot and I have been to his site MANY times for ideas on my jeep, point in fact is the light relays on the center rib of my hood and the 1.5" seat risers to name a couple.

If any offense was taken or assumed, it was not intended and I am sorry

[Wayco]

It's all a matter of perspective.... When I saw Nena start a thread on Banning Joe West, I knew that it was all in fun. It is quite common for people to misunderstand a post from someone they don't know. Before I got to meet Bill Mish, I posted a comment about his harassment of Windancer, when I met them it was easy to see that they were friends and always gave each other a hard time like this. When I tried to apologize to Bill about my comments, he said it wasn't necessary, anything on the forum doesn't count. This is a philosophy that I use when ever I read posts from people that I don't know.
We need to remember that this forum is a form of entertainment, it's not real life. Jeeping with real people on the trails is why we are here. Let's keep it in perspective.

[rockwerks]

It's all a matter of perspective.... When I saw Nena start a thread on Banning Joe West, I knew that it was all in fun. It is quite common for people to misunderstand a post from someone they don't know. Before I got to meet Bill Mish, I posted a comment about his harassment of Windancer, when I met them it was easy to see that they were friends and always gave each other a hard time like this. When I tried to apologize to Bill about my comments, he said it wasn't necessary, anything on the forum doesn't count. This is a philosophy that I use when ever I read posts from people that I don't know.
We need to remember that this forum is a form of entertainment, it's not real life. Jeeping with real people on the trails is why we are here. Let's keep it in perspective.

I remember having a heated debate with a guy on NAXJA a few years back, At the next big run he had and issue with a broken axle and I jumped in to help like I always do and he was surprised that was assisting him. I said hey its the internet. What goes on there stays there. It never has had any effect on personal relationships outside of the web.

[mingoglia]

Wow, I had not intention of posting in this thread, but just can't stop myself.

Mike I am not sure where you are coming from. The moderators here volunteered, and this new core wave of people you speak of, well they have turned away I think just about every founding member of this club. I have seen over the years the tides turn and while this club used to stand up in spades to help with everything it has turned to cliques. There are some that will go out on a limb to help anyone and everyone, but not the way it used to be, now most have to hope that it is someone from their small group that will come to their rescue cause someone in all the other groups might have been offended and wont' come to their rescue...blah...blah

I for one do not feel that the overall change in the way this club deals with each other has gotten better, or more of the old timers would still be here. Many of which I may not have always agreed with, but I still respected. Now we have far too many that want to play devils advocate, with any ryme or reason other then to get an argument going.

Not sure how much prior to me Stu joined, but I respect him very much, and I know I joined about 2 months after the club was formed, or maybe 3, but it was very early on. I was very reluctant to switch over to the BBS as I was affraid of how this split was going to affect the over all feel, my feelings were right on.

I think Stu or anyone has the right to put comments in their thread in order to try and keep it on target. And while not a moderator I would hope that if I put in a comment like that a moderator would help me clean out posts that did not keep with the theme if it was important to me, the person who started the thread. I think you are making way too much of this, and this is the type of trival stuff and bickering that has driven so many good people away. Leads me to keep considering why I even bust my hump to fight so hard for the land use issues, help try to organize events to change the publics opinion about us and what we do when so few will help and and instead want to worry about someone trying to keep a thread on track and how it may affect them. Maybe it is time to get back to wheeling and let those who like to cause fights here step up and try their hand at the meetings, they seem to like to argue so have at. Defending people like that rights is really getting to bug me when I don't see them doing anything about things that should matter.

As for Joe, I think he should have been banned when he signed up to be an Astronaut... :D

I believe you make my point. These core group of people are leaving because this is turning into a softcore place with no one actually talking about wheeling anymore. In my opinion if some of these core folks were moderators (and no, I don't consider myself one of these core folks) then they would be here to set the theme/tone of the forum. "They" would get on here, talk about wheeling and spark others to do the same. Instead we have threads like this, we have threads about bicycles, we have threads about how the airlines are screwing over flight attendants. . . but we don't have threads about wheeling. The natives are getting restless... We don't have threads about wheeling because the owner of the forum doesn't wheel and the moderators (except for Don) remain virtually silent so they might as well not be wheeling. Stu wheels almost every weekend... but if anyone from the AZVJC is part of his group it's probably by accident. Stu has the knowledge, experience, character, and motivation to turn this forum around by participating... I encourage him to do so before some great people start leaving (and once again I don't put myself in that group either. :D )

Mike

[mingoglia]

It's all a matter of perspective.... When I saw Nena start a thread on Banning Joe West, I knew that it was all in fun. It is quite common for people to misunderstand a post from someone they don't know. Before I got to meet Bill Mish, I posted a comment about his harassment of Windancer, when I met them it was easy to see that they were friends and always gave each other a hard time like this. When I tried to apologize to Bill about my comments, he said it wasn't necessary, anything on the forum doesn't count. This is a philosophy that I use when ever I read posts from people that I don't know.
We need to remember that this forum is a form of entertainment, it's not real life. Jeeping with real people on the trails is why we are here. Let's keep it in perspective.

That's a good point. Everyone I've met through this "club" on the trail has had the utmost character which is why I stick around. I think everyone needs to relax a bit (and the last couple days myself included) and wheel or at least talk about wheeling. I think that's what we as a group do best. :)

Mike

[Joe West]

Hi Mike,

You appear to have a bit of angst regarding the forum. Issues about it being soft-core, issues about sponsors and downtime and the lack of moderation... you sound really unhappy.

I think the forum is morphing into what it should be... not just a place to talk about Jeeps, but rather; a place for people to gather and discuss less important things like needing a job, or needing help on the trail, or having their house burn down or .... well... you get the point.

I've already taken credit for causing the forum to go down... what else do you want? I've posted the forum's financials for the past year and opened the admin panel up to anyone who wants to verify anything... can I do more?

Sure... I no longer have a Jeep... but I'm looking. Sure... I don't spend as much time on this forum as I should... but I spend as much as I can. For reasons I don't feel particularly inclined to discuss with you; my life has been in a bit of turmoil lately and quite frankly... I'm doing the best I can. I'm not asking for sympathy; I don't need that from anyone. What I am asking is for you to tell me what you'd like me to do better? Be specific. Tell me where I'm falling down on the job. Don't tell me to change the "direction" of the forum... it is changing as it needs to change to meet the needs of the club.

If we are too soft... too "mushy"... too "off topic" for your tastes... I have a suggestion:

Leave.

No one is making you stay.

Joe


I believe you make my point. These core group of people are leaving because this is turning into a softcore place with no one actually talking about wheeling anymore. In my opinion if some of these core folks were moderators (and no, I don't consider myself one of these core folks) then they would be here to set the theme/tone of the forum. "They" would get on here, talk about wheeling and spark others to do the same. Instead we have threads like this, we have threads about bicycles, we have threads about how the airlines are screwing over flight attendants. . . but we don't have threads about wheeling. The natives are getting restless... We don't have threads about wheeling because the owner of the forum doesn't wheel and the moderators (except for Don) remain virtually silent so they might as well not be wheeling. Stu wheels almost every weekend... but if anyone from the AZVJC is part of his group it's probably by accident. Stu has the knowledge, experience, character, and motivation to turn this forum around by participating... I encourage him to do so before some great people start leaving (and once again I don't put myself in that group either. :D )

Mike

[SavageSun4x4]

It had the typical what I like to call core people....

No one who has the best interest of the forum in mind is setting the topic of the day if you will (and with that tone).


the man in the rocking chair?...

better find some of the few remaining core members that share similar beliefs and make them moderators...

Mike

Mike I must say you have crushed my viewpoint of you being a standup guy. I am stunned at your bitterness. Guess I counted you in my circle of friends way too soon. I fact Mike, I thought you were one of the sharper tacks, trusted your opinons and always read your posts for insight on the thread.

Its clear you don't like the mods on here, for what ever reason may be other than Stu only does it when it serves him and I hard to stomach...Well let me buy you a bottle of Rolaids.

I often enter into tech discussions, have a website that I refer folks to which is getting about 150k hits per quarter as per "GoDaddy".

I attempt to moderate fairly and evenly. But mod I do and I can tell you that Joe has said I am fairly lax with the rules.

But certainly in your eyes I am not in a rocking chair (thanks) and not one of the core people. I know your core people and have wheeled with all but one of them I believe. And that one turned me down out on Table Mesa when I approached and asked if I could come along as my wife and I had never been there before. Yes I was new, had just moved here, but was a member of the board. I saw his rig and the decals, I knew who he was, even tho he didn't know me. Guess that is the kind of rocking chair leadership you are looking for...not me, in fact I will wheel with almost any one and any rig, in spite of my sometimes regrets.

Sorry me, my Jeep and my rocking chair don't meet your standards...:rolleyes:


I forgot: Downtime. There is less downtime on this site than on any I have been on. Until you have PHYSICALLY built and managed a TELCO [medical/US Treasury financial] grade facility and 23 general supporting facilities across the US don't start talking downtime...just call me 5 NINES! My meet me point was on the other side of my 12 inch reinforced concrete wall feeding dual CISCO 12k's. Piker.

[Miles2go1979]

I never would have thought that a light hearted humerous comment would spark such a controversy here. It started off funny, (smoking bicycles... hilarous!) why start taking it personal?

[mingoglia]

And you know what? I hope Joe does make a profit on this someday. Because, if he keeps losing money and time, and getting nothing but CR@P (yes--language violation) from the newer forum surfers, how long do you think we will have this fine forum?


A forum with the traffic this site has requires two very low end machines. Two lower end machines would outperform 1 relatively new machine and be much cheaper. Both would run a unix OS (mac osX is unix but expensive). I would personally run freebsd. I'd have a scsi array controller that was several years old and a bunch of cheap/small drives for the db server.

On the web server I would also run freebsd/apache/php. I'd have the apache logs on a array without parity and the actual web root running raid 5.

That covers the hardware for years to come. Now the only real cost is whatever the monthly internet service is. Keep in mind the owner of the forum would most likely already have an internet connection so the difference between a standard cox connection and the upgraded uplink would be the true cost here.

It's a myth that is continually circulated that it takes a new $8k server every two years to keep this forum operating. Yeah, he's buying this new box every 2 or 3 years but I'm sure he just likes having cool toys (can't blame him). He can do what he wants. If it was me, I'd do exactly the same thing because I like cool new hardware. The difference though would be I'd say, "gang, I'm upgrading to a newer faster server because I think Mac's are cool and I like having the newest equipment". Not, "gang, I'm upgrading this weekend to a new server because I have to keep up with the growing demand for server resources".

Anyway, this thread is way off track now. Let me throw one more thing out. I'm glad Joe has this forum. Joe appears to be a good guy and man of character (although I think the forum requirements are a bit misleading). He sets up meet and greets from time to time. He takes my criticism in stride and doesn't kick my butt out. :o He also seems to be about as fair of a guy as I've seen. I guess I just laugh so much about the butt kissing and get tired of the "this forum costs so much to operate and he's at such a loss that we owe our lives to Joe". This is not the case, and I'll point that out every time.


Mike

[YJunk]

If anyone bans me... I will change every last one of your Avatars to something I think is funny... and I will lock them so you can't change them back :D

YJunk didn't come out of the closet because he *wanted* to... :D

I still laugh everytime I look at that...

[Joe West]

Hi Mike,

If you read the part where I posted the financials... you'll see I did indeed say "up front" that I benefited from having a kick butt machine to use at home. I'm not hiding anything.

Also... the last time I replaced our "dual processor" server, server loads were over 2... I'm sure you understand what that means... now that we have a quad processor machine... server loads are STILL over 2... and again... I'm sure you understand how server loads over 2 on a quad machine are significantly different (from a usability standpoint) than server loads over 2 on a dual processor machine. The bottom line is; I didn't replace the server last time for fun... I replaced it because the forum was consuming a significant portion of the cpu cycles available during peak traffic times which resulted in a slowing down of the forum.

As for wanting to use OSX and Apple... it is because it has all the benefits of a UNIX operating system with the functionality of a "useable" home computer... something that neither a Linux or Solaris or any other "standard" UNIX OS can offer. Yes... I could get a winblowz server... but since I absolutely despise Microsoft for their business practices; I'd rather not give them my money.

Finally... you seem bent on being upset with members who express appreciation for the work I've (and the other moderators) have done on the forum. Why is that? Why do you really care if other people appreciate what anyone else does? Does it bother you because you don't get public thanks?
I have to tell you... honestly... you come off a bit insecure when you post such things. If you don't like people saying thanks to me and others... simply create a "standard" PM which says something like:

"Joe really doesn't do much... the forum runs itself and he is making a ton of money which he really doesn't deserve"

And then send it to everyone who "kisses my butt" so that they know how little I do and how much money I make.

You may want to include in the PM... a little note about everything you've done to help people in the club out so that they understand who the real hero is.

If I sound a bit irritated... I am.

Joe

A forum with the traffic this site has requires two very low end machines. Two lower end machines would outperform 1 relatively new machine and be much cheaper. Both would run a unix OS (mac osX is unix but expensive). I would personally run freebsd. I'd have a scsi array controller that was several years old and a bunch of cheap/small drives for the db server.

On the web server I would also run freebsd/apache/php. I'd have the apache logs on a array without parity and the actual web root running raid 5.

That covers the hardware for years to come. Now the only real cost is whatever the monthly internet service is. Keep in mind the owner of the forum would most likely already have an internet connection so the difference between a standard cox connection and the upgraded uplink would be the true cost here.

It's a myth that is continually circulated that it takes a new $8k server every two years to keep this forum operating. Yeah, he's buying this new box every 2 or 3 years but I'm sure he just likes having cool toys (can't blame him). He can do what he wants. If it was me, I'd do exactly the same thing because I like cool new hardware. The difference though would be I'd say, "gang, I'm upgrading to a newer faster server because I think Mac's are cool and I like having the newest equipment". Not, "gang, I'm upgrading this weekend to a new server because I have to keep up with the growing demand for server resources".

Anyway, this thread is way off track now. Let me throw one more thing out. I'm glad Joe has this forum. Joe appears to be a good guy and man of character (although I think the forum requirements are a bit misleading). He sets up meet and greets from time to time. He takes my criticism in stride and doesn't kick my butt out. :o He also seems to be about as fair of a guy as I've seen. I guess I just laugh so much about the butt kissing and get tired of the "this forum costs so much to operate and he's at such a loss that we owe our lives to Joe". This is not the case, and I'll point that out every time.


Mike

[fatbob309]

Hey Lugz... You just can't get a break can you... lol!

[fatbob309]

Joe... I love you! Big hug?

[Joe West]

It's okay... really... it is how the forum changes for the positive and while people (including myself sometimes) get "butt-hurt"... when the rubber meets the road; most folks will STILL do just about anything to help a fellow member out.

Joe

I never would have thought that a light hearted humerous comment would spark such a controversy here. It started off funny, (smoking bicycles... hilarous!) why start taking it personal?

[Joe West]

Stop it... I'm getting all teary-eyed...

:D

Joe... I love you! Big hug?

[YJunk]

On a different note let me say this... I ran a financial forum for an extended period of time and it sucked... Not moderated; owned operated etc... and it absolutely sucked...

It is a thankless thing and a pain in the rump... It's one of the reasons I sponsor on the level I do... cause of all the things to waste your personal time on, this has got to be one of the worst...

Actually let me clarify just a bit... I had the forum hosted on third party server so I didn't even have to deal with patches and equipment... (to me it also seemed cheaper this way)... but it still blew massive amounts of of my patience right out the window... You end up with a couple of thousand whiney babies who think you owe them something because they grace your forum with their precesnce...

Oh and as long as I'm runnin around calling everyone a hypocrite I'll come clean... I would have booted me to the curb a long time ago... Joe is obviously a better man than I am...


Joe I think Mike should get a ghey avatar too for being a Nancy...

Whenever a forum grows the dynmics change... the bigger the pack the more unruley the dogs get... thats life. It's probably only going to get worse, because as the population here grows... you'll continue to pull in the -1% (me) who will throw poop at the +1% (bruzr) and then the whole board gets into it... So it aint gonna ge no betta...

Edit: What do I care if Joe makes a fortune off this site... and if he did would I stop coming... Nope... He should charge everyone here a platinum sponsorship to post... Life is a business; and he deserves to be rewarded for my... I mean our aggrevation.

[AZLugz]

Hey Lugz... You just can't get a break can you... lol!


Its ok, I will prolly be on the trail with you guys to Py on a nice april sunday and it won't really matter!!


I still like it here and learn a lot, if I am an easy target for people to bash ans feel good, I can take it and apologize where needed.....now if I could just learn to shutup!!!!!:o

[Joe West]

Your are right... it would be TONS cheaper for me to have this site hosted somewhere else. However... I would have to give up control (which isn't a big deal when things are working fine) but when there is a problem... there is NOTHING like being able to do a reboot or apply security patches myself to make sure they happen and happen quickly.

That being said... I've never priced out what a dedicated quad server with close to a terrabyte of disk space would cost... I'd be willing to bet it would be pretty expensive if we could even get our hands on one. Remember... the forum isn't disk space limited or total bandwidth limited or processor limited... our only limitation is the speed of our business connection WHICH, if the forum ever does move into the black... I will increase by paying Cox more money.

Maybe someone can look for what a dedicated quad server with say... 500Gb disk space would cost for some other host to provide. I'd love to see the numbers if anyone can post them.

Joe


On a different note let me say this... I ran a financial forum for an extended period of time and it sucked... Not moderated; owned operated etc... and it absolutely sucked...

It is a thankless thing and a pain in the rump... It's one of the reasons I sponsor on the level I do... cause of all the things to waste your personal time on, this has got to be one of the worst...

Actually let me clarify just a bit... I had the forum hosted on third party server so I didn't even have to deal with patches and equipment... (to me it also seemed cheaper this way)... but it still blew massive amounts of of my patience right out the window... You end up with a couple of thousand whiney babies who think you owe them something because they grace your forum with their precesnce...

Oh and as long as I'm runnin around calling everyone a hypocrite I'll come clean... I would have booted me to the curb a long time ago... Joe is obviously a better man than I am...

Joe I think Mike should get a ghey avatar too for being a Nancy...

Whenever a forum grows the dynmics change... the bigger the pack the more unruley the dogs get... thats life. It's probably only going to get worse, because as the population here grows... you'll continue to pull in the -1% (me) who will throw poop at the +1% (bruzr) and then the whole board gets into it... So it aint gonna ge no betta...

[Sedona Jeep School]

YJunk, did Joe get ahold of your avatar? :D

And I think we can consider this thread officially complete now that FatBob is here. Oh, wait, where's Mish? :D :D :D

Mike, you need some wheel time, maybe in an '07 Rubi? ;) Bumper...$700, rental...$145, getting to harrass Mike in person...priceless! :D

[My1stJeep]

I believe you make my point. These core group of people are leaving because this is turning into a softcore place with no one actually talking about wheeling anymore. In my opinion if some of these core folks were moderators (and no, I don't consider myself one of these core folks) then they would be here to set the theme/tone of the forum. "They" would get on here, talk about wheeling and spark others to do the same. Instead we have threads like this, we have threads about bicycles, we have threads about how the airlines are screwing over flight attendants. . . but we don't have threads about wheeling. The natives are getting restless... We don't have threads about wheeling because the owner of the forum doesn't wheel and the moderators (except for Don) remain virtually silent so they might as well not be wheeling. Stu wheels almost every weekend... but if anyone from the AZVJC is part of his group it's probably by accident. Stu has the knowledge, experience, character, and motivation to turn this forum around by participating... I encourage him to do so before some great people start leaving (and once again I don't put myself in that group either. :D )

Mike

No, I think the moderators get berrated so much they tend to not post up as often, I can't blame them. JamesT was blamed for posting his opinion and being too active, now Stu is getting just the opposite. If we expect perfection we would have to define it first, what might be appropriate amount of time to me may be too little or too much for you. I have seen Stu pop in and out when he feels the need and if he has an answer to someone's issues he always chimes in. I think the persection from the forum members is a bigger problem. Stu getting more involved and posting more often to pad his post count is not going to make the difference you seek.

Funny you mentioned Devilman, and while I have nothing against him, have met him and he is cool, I can remember many posts made by your example that took threads way off course. Yet you say it is that type of person being active that makes a forum respectable? I thought staying on topic helped with that, and if you have something you want to say that is not applicable start a new on. Often I don't read threads cause the title does not interest me.

That said, part of wheeling and being friends and a community also comes from blowing off steam, like when stuff gets ripped off being able to vent, and a little friendly ribbing, like round headlights are better, or TJ are for men and XJ's are for cheerleaders. So some of us take to another extreme like requesting a ban on Joe, or a ban on smoking or asking hypothetical questions to get people thinking. That hypothetical question has come true for more than one on this board and there was alot of information given about the rights of the vehicle owner and what some of the consequences could be if you react the wrong way. So while it may not deal with a trip or repair it still was a good discussion.

As for why not so many trips are posted, it is the division amongst us, not the mods, and with this many people you are never going to get everyone behind one opinion, so there will always be division amongst the ranks. Others don't post there runs cause they don't want others here to show up, others so that a trail does not get over used by everyone knowing about it (this one causes loads of debate). Plus if you run and have a group of 10 going already do you think it is a requirement to post the run and get another 20 to attend? There is no requirement to post your runs,and we each have the right to invite who we want and keep it off line if we so choose.

While I may not agree with the mods on all decisions, I think they are doing fine.

[John_P]

After reading the financial report...it seems that costs of upgrading certainly did not make the forum profitable. However, if you simply assume that the level of sponsorship maintains for next year...you make a profit. That is your fixed-costs appear to be the COX connection...this of course does not account for your time...but then again, it is nice to make a profit on a hobby.

Second, I am sure the new upgrades will support X amount of growth making for the potential of for more profit. Unless I missed something in your report.

Also, I think Mike's point about the minimum is warranted...it could be seen as profit spent...or re-investment.

[fatbob309]

Its ok, I will prolly be on the trail with you guys to Py on a nice april sunday and it won't really matter!!


I still like it here and learn a lot, if I am an easy target for people to bash ans feel good, I can take it and apologize where needed.....now if I could just learn to shutup!!!!!:o

Way cool!

[YGOHOME]

good grief, this whole thing has gotten retarded

[mingoglia]

Okay, perhaps I got a bit carried away. Maybe it's arrogance on my part since my whole business is about uptime. I've spent many years putting redundant systems in place to aleviate uptime concerns. And Don, although I haven't worked specifically in your industry I've been a consultant and or held Senior level/upper management positions for a number of years (yeah, I'm obviously not as old as you and worked as long in different industries). I've designed/maintainted networks for Intel, SITIX, Dell Webb, Uhaul, and many others. I do know what I'm talking about.

Yeah, I've also grown the technology of a start up business in which I'm still the CTO of. This is a web based business with load balanced database server. Although we only have 20 people all together we have up to 80,000 financial transactions per day go through our systems. Here's a snapshot of connections through my redundant firewalls:

Firewall 1
# sh conn
1362 in use, 19191 most used

Firewall 2
# sh conn
3082 in use, 73332 most used

As you can see I currently all together (well, as of 5 mins ago technically) have 4,444 (that's actually a nice round number :) ) users either on one of my few hundred websites filling out an application or having data XML/posted to me.

As you can see, I don't just have a small website... I have DS3 to support our corporate office and a 10mb pipe at my main datacenter. I do know a bit about what I'm talking about. I'm not very quick to throw out my resume, but there's a snapshot. I hope that demonstrates that I may have done a bit of database/server optimization in my time.

...and Joe, webservers aren't processor intensive. The db can be, but I've found that disk I/O is the most important and lack of disk I/O can directly affect how much processor is being used.

[mingoglia]

YJunk, did Joe get ahold of your avatar? :D

And I think we can consider this thread officially complete now that FatBob is here. Oh, wait, where's Mish? :D :D :D

Mike, you need some wheel time, maybe in an '07 Rubi? ;) Bumper...$700, rental...$145, getting to harrass Mike in person...priceless! :D

The next time I rent one of your Jeeps I'm going to bring my own bumper and swap it out before beginning.

Speaking of which John's thinking of finally using your services memorial day weekend. Are you free? I told him that he's going to have to pony up some $$$ since it's been so long since I got him the gift certificate...this of course assuming it's still worth anything.

Mike

[KnetAZ]

Okay, perhaps I got a bit carried away. Maybe it's arrogance on my part........

Nooooooooooo, ya think?

[mingoglia]

...and Don, you may not think I'm a standup guy, but I still think you are.

[mingoglia]

Nooooooooooo, ya think?

Yeah, well, being the standup guy I am I admit when I get too carried away... but even though I got carried away, I still believe my points are valid.

[KnetAZ]

Yeah, well, being the standup guy I am I admit when I get too carried away... but even though I got carried away, I still believe my points are valid.

Really? Like your point about Stu not doing enough for the community and wheeling only with the people he wants to wheel with? Who the hell are you to stand in judgement of him, or anybody else for that matter? Have you done more for the community (AZVJC or Jeeping community at large) than he has? Is he under some obligation to spend his weekends in a way that meets with your approval? Get over yourself.

The validity of your points are moot. No one other than you cares about how you would run the site; you aren't running it.

The only people responsible for the tone of this board are the people who post on it, not the mods. If you don't like the tone then stop pissing in the pool, Mr. Stand Up Guy.

[John_P]

The only people responsible for the tone of this board are the people who post on it, not the mods.

If this were true...we wouldn't have language bans. :rolleyes:

[SavageSun4x4]

...and Don, you may not think I'm a standup guy, but I still think you are.
even if I am hard to stomach?:)

[rockwerks]

If this were true...we wouldn't have language bans. :rolleyes:

you are about one day behind in this conversation........its now onto hardware nothing to do with language........:rolleyes:

[SavageSun4x4]

If this were true...we wouldn't have language bans. :rolleyes:
Ever thought that maybe the language bans were for another purpose?:confused:

[mingoglia]

Really? Like your point about Stu not doing enough for the community and wheeling only with the people he wants to wheel with? Who the hell are you to stand in judgement of him, or anybody else for that matter? Have you done more for the community (AZVJC or Jeeping community at large) than he has? Is he under some obligation to spend his weekends in a way that meets with your approval? Get over yourself.

The validity of your points are moot. No one other than you cares about how you would run the site; you aren't running it.

The only people responsible for the tone of this board are the people who post on it, not the mods. If you don't like the tone then stop pissing in the pool, Mr. Stand Up Guy.

I thought I made it pretty clear that Stu is great for the Jeep community... my point was that he (at least since I've been here) doesn't really do much for this particular forum since he's never here. He does great things for the Jeep community and his site is probably the most helpful (especially for the newer guys getting into the sport) than any site on the Internet. My point was if you're actively a part of the virtualjeepclub community your moderation is going to be better received. Let me also point out one more thing. I've never had any of my posts moderated and therefore it's not like I'm bitter because Stu moderated one of my posts. I think knowing this perhaps you can see that I'm not biased towards Stu or any other moderator because I frequently speak like a sailor. I don't typically use bad language, I don't typically call people out personally, etc, and I'm aware of Joe's wishes to keep it clean.... I'm saying others that have indeed been on the receiving end of moderation may not have been as frustrated if they felt they were moderated by a contributing peer on the forum. Once again, my goal is to help create a community in which we don't have to be moderated (although that option should always be there, if absolutely needed). A community in which our respect for each other is all we need.

How can I be bitter about "unfair" moderation if I've never once had a post moderated?

Mike

[Joe West]

I think we've about beat this horse to death... a few times...

Closing thread.