blooddrive
01-04-2004, 02:11 PM
44562-44586
44562 From: Scott Kruize <scottkruize@e...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:53pm
Subject: RE: Organized Clubs
Joey,
I think David needs to put his stickers on some magnetic material. That way he can add and remove them as his mood suits him. ;)
David,
You're a good guy to have around here...I hope you stick around. I got some spare stickers for you if it's too late...... :)
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: DesertJeep [mailto:joey@desertjeep.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:49 PM
To: David R. W. Withers; 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Organized Clubs
again?
Joey K
-----Original Message-----
From: David R. W. Withers [mailto:dr_ww@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:56 PM
To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Organized Clubs
Importance: High
Looks like my stickers are coming off!!!
Leave it alone. If I want to give money to dues, I'll give it to the ASA4wdc.
let me know when this happens so I may remove myself form the e-mail list
Sincerely
David R. W. Withers
-----Original Message-----
From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@AzChatfield.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:29 AM
To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [az_vjc] Organized Clubs
To all of those that already belong to an organized club, you may now delete this message (or continue reading if you're curious).
For everyone here that is interested:
I talked to Sandee McCullen at the cleanup in January and have been trying to figure out a way to bring this up to the group. Well it looks like this may be the perfect time with all that has happened in the past day or so.
We can make the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club an incorporated club and become a member club of the Arizona State Association of 4WD Clubs WITHOUT organizing (at least not any more than we already have). Sandee said that we need three "officers" and bylaws, we don't have to have membership requirements, elections, "official" club runs. All the bylaws have to say is who the officers are, how new members join, and when we have meetings (even if it is never).
Here is the way it would work. As it is now, anyone can join the AzVJC via the website and post messages to the group, this WILL NOT change. What changes is, once someone has joined the AzVJC and gone on one run (so we can verify that they live in Arizona and HAVE a JEEP) then they can join the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated (AzVJC Inc). All they have to do is pay their dues for the year. If they want to drop out of the AzVJC Inc then they just don't pay the dues; it doesn't mean that they will be dropped from the website or mailing list. Nothing else changes... all we're doing is adding another option for our members.
Here is what I'm thinking for the incorporation:
For the three officers:
President - Responsible for turning in New Membership Information to ASA4WDC, attend ASA4WDC meetings. (I nominate DougB if he's interested)
Treasurer - Responsible for collecting money from members and paying ASA4WDC and Az State. (I nominate Jon Loveless, if he's interested, since he already does alot with stickers, etc...)
Webmaster - Responsible for maintaining the website and e-mail list.
How to become a New Member: 1. Join the AzVJC 2. Go on a run with the AzVJC (with at least one member of the AzVJC Inc present) 3. Pay Dues. That's it.
How to become a Non Member: 1. Don't pay your dues.
Meetings and Elections: None. If a club officer steps down, he/she chooses the replacement.
Dues: I am thinking since Az State has decided that clubs are only allowed 2 runs per month that we just include an individual permit in the cost of the dues for the year. This way members of the AzVJC Inc are double covered and they won't have to remember to get one every year (like me). Also included in the cost of dues would be ASA4WDC membership. Because of the incorporation, we'll likely have to start paying for the webspace (which we currently get for free) which is $21.25/month. We could also include things like paying to get rid of advertisements on Yahoo Groups, extra stickers to hand out at events, flyers, banners, etc... I estimate roughly $40/year which is right in line with most clubs.
The benefits are: 1. The AzVJC will be covered by the ASA4WDC million dollar insurance. 2. ASA4WDC and united will get more money to fight the eco-nazis. 3. The AzVJC will finally be recognized as the largest club at the ASA4WDC Jamboree :) 4. I'm sure there's more but my mind is drawing a blank.
The downside is: 1. Paying Dues. 2. There are no other downsides, other than paying dues, nothing changes, and you only have to pay dues if you want to (you just remain a member of AzVJC but not AzVJC Inc).
Does this make sense? I'll post a poll to find out how many may be interested. The initial start up costs will depend on the number of people starting the AzVJC Inc as incorporation can initially be expensive ($500?) ALSO, if anyone has been through the incorporation process before, we could use your assistance.
Thanks,
- Mike
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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44563 From: jetowle2000 <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:56pm
Subject: Re: Random Input
Is that an "Amen" to keep you out of the "muddled water"? Or
an "Amen" for individual membership is better than group?
Or maybe both :) .
--James
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...> wrote:
> Amen!
>
> Stu Olson
> www.stu-offroad.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jetowle2000 [mailto:James.Towle@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:49 PM
> To: az_vjc@y...
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Random Input
>
>
>
> I thought it was better in some ways.
> I thought as a group you only needed to have one permit. Thus, in
the
> government's eye, showing that there is only, let's say 10 groups
as
> aposed to 200 people. When they count they count only the permits
> assigned, not the people using those permits. This gives them an
> unsually low count on how many people are actually using land.
>
> I thought Stu had brought this up once, not to drag Stu into this
> muddled water.
>
> --James
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Clay Forrester" <allvol@c...> wrote:
> > "contributing directly to ASA4WD or the BRC as an INDIVIDUAL the
> same, or
> > even better, than paying club dues" Yes, this is a GREAT way to
> help keep
> > the trails open. Sorry for the late response....just got home
from
> work.
> >
> >
> > Clay Forrester
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <tandljacobson@a...>
> > To: <az_vjc@y...>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:07 AM
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Random Input
> >
> >
> > > Message: 19
> > > Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:59:40 -0700
> > > From: "Clay Forrester" <allvol@c...>
> > > Subject: Re: Thanks (more)........
> > >
> > > "...They will ALL be shut
> > > down and the land closed off.
> > >
> > >
> > > Zilla
> > >
> > > Except for those secret new trails that you need a small, uhh,
> errr, unit
> > to run! Only kidding!!! <bob, weave, duck incoming flames!>
> > >
> > > Regarding the other post about club membership...I tend to
agree
> with the
> > folks who do not prefer to belong to additional, organized
clubs.
> I know
> > people who both do and don't, but I'm not interested. But a
> question, isn't
> > contributing directly to ASA4WD or the BRC as an INDIVIDUAL the
> same, or
> > even better, than paying club dues, of which only a portion go to
> land
> > access groups?
> > >
> > > And a quick jab to Stu - if you start going by "Timber
Chucker",
> you're
> > gonna have to disregard all your own advice since it's coming
from
> a "screen
> > name"! ;-)
> > >
> > > Finally...is anyone thinking about a rock-unstacking run for an
> FJ trail
> > yet? Upper WP? Ajax? Might try to get in on the Terminator
> cleanup, but
> > have never run it...minimum Jeep requirements?
> > >
> > > TJ (errr, Tom Jacobson)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44564 From: Scott Kruize <scottkruize@e...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:58pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Doug,
That was another friend of mine at that time, just as my friend Joe is
now doing. By forming an alter AZVJC group on Yahoo he has done exactly
the same as the friend did back then. I am not in favor of this either.
Said individuals are instigating their own division of the group.
Can't we all just get along??????
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: DougB [mailto:azjeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 5:17 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; Chatfield, Mike
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
I disagree with you there, Mike. While it may be possible legally to
take the name for another group, it would still be wrong. I recall when
someone (can't recall who) got pissed off and started a second AzVJC. I
protested it then as being tacky and wrong. Didn't care about setting up
another club, but suggested that they not steal the name. I think they
fizzled out anyway. I don't think your necessarily proposing this...but
just want to voice my opinion on it.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non entity) has
> legal right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it, the
> AzVJC
never
> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't own
> anything (including the copyrighted webpages).
>
> Just something to think about.
>
> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want to be a
> part of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change unless
> YOU make the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR
> CHOICE.
>
> - Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a good
> idea
for
> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
> everyone's authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new
> club must be separate, and must not be liked to our current website
> any more than any other club currently is.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44565 From: Ralph Williams <ralphbw@q...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:59pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
If there is an AVJC Inc.
Will it then be limited to two runs a month on State land?
I doubt you will separate the two entities in the eyes of the
gov'mint...
If this is true, doncha think this may be a BAD IDEA?
Ain't going to mess around cutting and pasting the html posts so
you will have to live without any quoting.
Ralph
44566 From: Nick Gasmena <horizon@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:01pm
Subject: Re: AzVJC Mailing List Stats
My buddy isnt on the mailing list, but looks for runs and 4x info on the site.. so theres 1 ;oP
Nick Gasmena - nickg@huskiesonline.com
-----------------------
Horizon Web Site - Http://www.HuskiesOnline.Com
My Jeep Pictures - http://www.azvjc.org/Gallery/View.asp?U=1637
My 4x4 Site - Http://www.huskiesonline.com/offroad
----- Original Message -----
From: Chatfield, Mike
To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:32 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] AzVJC Mailing List Stats
All of those are good. If they go bad, they get dropped and added to the "Bouncing" list.
- Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Mesalam [mailto:m_mesalam@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:32 PM
To: Chatfield, Mike; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] AzVJC Mailing List Stats
Mike, of the 111 and the 259, is there a list generated of the "no good" addresses? Or are they all good?
-----Original Message-----
From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@AzChatfield.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:14 PM
To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [az_vjc] AzVJC Mailing List Stats
I just exported the list into Excel to do some calculations because I was curious.
Of the 1022 supposed members of the Group List, there are currently only 897 (I'm guessing that Yahoo Groups still counts those that have dropped the list?)
So with that in mind:
Dropped from the List: 125
Elected to Receive NO E-Mail: 527
Elected to Receive Daily Digests: 111
Elected to Receive Individual E-Mails: 259
But I wonder how many of the "No E-Mail" actually come and read messages on the web.
- Mike
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
44567 From: Scott Kruize <scottkruize@e...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:02pm
Subject: RE: Organize, NOT!!
Michael,
I can think of several members that have registered on the list several
times due to problems with their email account. Wouldn't it be funny if
all of us had done this a couple of times? How about 512 members, 256
votes?
This is not an accurate way to count unless you are the FLVJC. (Florida
Virtual Jeep Club;)
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: Baja Fleg [mailto:fleigle@h...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 5:17 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Organize, NOT!!
Mike
The current AZVJC membership is at 1023. So to get your AZVJC inc. plan
approved you would need to get 512 yes votes, right now you have 13. If
you
can 512 HONEST yes votes then even I would have to agree it was the
right
thing to do. You know that if press this much farther your only going
to
start a war among us then the only people you will really be helping is
the
Eco Nazis. Lets all stand back and give Mike his week, he only needs
499
yes votes.
Michael
__________________________________________________ _______________
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44568 From: Ross Skinner <rskinner@s...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:58pm
Subject: RE: Organize, NOT!!
Are we done yet? My eyes are drying out from scanning all of these emails.
No....again
Ross
-----Original Message-----
From: DougB [mailto:azjeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:42 PM
To: Baja Fleg; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; jimmy lambertus
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Organize, NOT!!
FWIW, I don't think that Mike was proposing to organize as much as he was
trying to off a solution to the status of AzVJC by ASA and making it easier
to contribute. Personally, I like it the way it is, but I appreciate the
effort and suggestion. Perhaps there are some other ideas that can be
explored beyond the big "O".
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "jimmy lambertus" <jeepnazus@y...>
To: "Baja Fleg" <fleigle@h...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Organize, NOT!!
>
> --- It sounds to me like all Mike really wants is to
> make it easier for the 1000 or so members to
> contribute to our sport and be recognized as the
> entity that the AZVJC has become (organized or not ).
> Now if everyone would put as much effort into
> accomplishing that as they have into *****ing about
> becomming incorporated we might find a solution.I have
> heard alot of comments about joining a real club well
> the reason I joined this club is because I dont want
> to be governed by someone else,but times they are a
> changing and the greenies are becomming more and more
> influencial in closeing our lands.There are alot of
> people in this club who dont contribute to the cause
> because they dont know about it.I have a headache now
> from reading all of this nonproductive banter so I
> will stop. Lets all get together this weekend and
> discuss this by the campfire and find a solution.
> Jim (Crusher) Lambertus Baja Fleg
> <fleigle@h...> wrote:
> > Mike
> > The current AZVJC membership is at 1023. So to get
> > your AZVJC inc. plan
> > approved you would need to get 512 yes votes, right
> > now you have 13. If you
> > can 512 HONEST yes votes then even I would have to
> > agree it was the right
> > thing to do. You know that if press this much
> > farther your only going to
> > start a war among us then the only people you will
> > really be helping is the
> > Eco Nazis. Lets all stand back and give Mike his
> > week, he only needs 499
> > yes votes.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> __________________________________________________ _______________
> > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device:
> > http://mobile.msn.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44569 From: scramzilla <allvol@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:07pm
Subject: My final post......(please read)
I would like to thank all the people that took the time to respond to
the messages that I have posted over the last few days. I have
learned a lot and have made several new friends. Other than a
miss/cross post that I had with Stu and the two people that hate me
(and I hate them)<Not you Stu :-))) Every single post that I
received, (hundreds of them), were all positive for the most part and
that is amazing........ I am now going back to posting on my own
boards and let the chips fall where they may with regards to what all
of "you" decide to do with "your" Club. I was very much an outsider
here but many of you have made me feel welcomed and for that I am
grateful.
Happy Trails,
Clay Forrester
PS: My email is allvol@c... You can send me an email any time any
I will get back to you as soon as possible. I will be subscribed to
this message board the rest of the night but after that, I think that
I should move on.
Thanks again,
Zilla
44570 From: Scott Kruize <scottkruize@e...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:08pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs: Mike's response to DougB
Mike,
I think you got off on the wrong foot by introducing the "O" word. Many
people began loading their rounds and firing before war was declared ;)
This led to a civil war with no basis for it.
(This is only a brainstorm. Not necessarily my opinion or desire.) To
expand on your idea...How about having Jr and Sr members? Senior members
are dues paying members, Junior members are free to lurk and post on the
list, join any run they want as they currently do. There is only a
handful of real Pirate members though hundreds of people participate on
their list, etc.
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 5:30 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs: Mike's response to DougB
--- In az_vjc@y..., "DougB" <azjeep@c...> wrote:
> Mike...I realize you've given this some thought, and before I add too
> much to the fray, I'd like to know how it would be proposed to operate
> in terms of communication (maybe you've answered these things and I
> just haven't gotten to them yet). Would there be 2 separate lists? 2
> web sites? 2 trail lists, secret handshake :o) etc. Not sure I
> completely understand the function of the shadow AzJC...
Ok, here it goes. Actually I can understand the concern over this
issue, originally I was completely against it. After talking with
Sandee McCullen, however, I am only slightly against it (yea, you
read right, against it; just consider me the lawyer that is
representing a client whose cause he doesn't completely agree with?)
What changed my opinion was the fact that Sandee said we could
incorporate without having elections, meetings, etc.. But it does
require at least 3 "officers" and By Laws, but the officers don't
have to have any real duties, and the by laws only have to say that
we don't have any rules, elections, meetings etc...
What I've tried to arrange in the past is to let me create a webpage
where members could join ASA4WDC and pay via PayPal on their own.
However, Sandee mentioned that Individual memberships may be going
away. With this in mind, that means in order for an individual to
become a member of the ASA4WDC, he/she has to join a ASA4WDC Club.
Also, this does not take into account United or State Land Use (which
I still need to get myself one for this year).
What I really want to do is to provide a one stop shopping place for
Members of the AzVJC to get the ASA4WDC membership, the United
Membership and the State Land Use Permit. What I'd like is to receive
money via PayPal and send off the applications for the members, but I
don't believe this is possible, or at least not easily done. So, I
thought it might be easier to incorporate a "shadow" club (which in
essence is the AzVJC) and get the memberships via that club for the
AzVJC members that wanted to participate; the added bonus being that
it would be cheaper.
So to answer the question about splitting, or 2 websites, 2 lists the
answer is no. All this is, is an attempt to get more people to join
ASA4WDC and United and get their Land Use Permits. If the end result
is that we can do this without incorporation then I am 100% for it.
My intent by introducing this thread is to 1. get it talked about so
new members know more. 2. Get SOMETHING established to make things
easier for our members to get their ASA4WDC & United Memberships and
their State Land Use Permit.
Now that everyone has seen both sides of the debate, offer
suggestions on what you think is the best way to accomplish then end
goal which is to get as many members as the AzVJC as possible signed
up with ASA4WDC and United and get them their State Land Use permits.
- Mike
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44571 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:10pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs: Mike's response to DougB
Thanks Mike for the clarification/info. Also, I'd like to thank you for
trying to suggest an option. Certainly has generated a bit of discussion,
which is good and healthy. Also, a great big thanks for all the work you've
done on the web site. Really appreciated!
On the surface, the 'shadow' group you describe may not change the spirit or
function of the group, but I think there's concern that it could lead to
more onerous aspects of a real organization. But, as you indicated
previously, this could be dealt with by very tight by-laws not allowing the
thing to get beyond a mechanism for "official" participation and recognition
by ASA.
A couple of alternative suggestions/ideas:
- Generate an automatic message that goes out to new members who subscribe
to the club to point out some of the basics behind AzVJC (founding concept,
Tread Lightly, no spam, etc.), and at the same time encourage individual
participation in ASA and United, with links to both. Not mess with pay pal,
but leave that up to individuals. I'd be happy to draft a sample we could
discuss on line.
- Put links on the web sites to ASA and United, and possibly other info
sources like the Blue Ribbon Coalition. Again...leave contributions up to
individuals.
- Generate regular membership drives on the list to encourage
participation/dues in these orgs. (I'd be happy to do this)
- Info on permits w/ links to BLM and State Trust (if such permit links
exist).
Just some thoughts...and thanks again for all your efforts.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "az_jeeper_mike" <azvjc@a...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 5:29 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs: Mike's response to DougB
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "DougB" <azjeep@c...> wrote:
> > Mike...I realize you've given this some thought, and before I add
> > too much to the fray, I'd like to know how it would be proposed to
> > operate in terms of communication (maybe you've answered these
> > things and I just haven't gotten to them yet). Would there be 2
> > separate lists? 2 web sites? 2 trail lists, secret handshake :o)
> > etc. Not sure I completely understand the function of the shadow
> > AzJC...
>
> Ok, here it goes. Actually I can understand the concern over this
> issue, originally I was completely against it. After talking with
> Sandee McCullen, however, I am only slightly against it (yea, you
> read right, against it; just consider me the lawyer that is
> representing a client whose cause he doesn't completely agree with?)
> What changed my opinion was the fact that Sandee said we could
> incorporate without having elections, meetings, etc.. But it does
> require at least 3 "officers" and By Laws, but the officers don't
> have to have any real duties, and the by laws only have to say that
> we don't have any rules, elections, meetings etc...
>
> What I've tried to arrange in the past is to let me create a webpage
> where members could join ASA4WDC and pay via PayPal on their own.
> However, Sandee mentioned that Individual memberships may be going
> away. With this in mind, that means in order for an individual to
> become a member of the ASA4WDC, he/she has to join a ASA4WDC Club.
> Also, this does not take into account United or State Land Use (which
> I still need to get myself one for this year).
>
> What I really want to do is to provide a one stop shopping place for
> Members of the AzVJC to get the ASA4WDC membership, the United
> Membership and the State Land Use Permit. What I'd like is to receive
> money via PayPal and send off the applications for the members, but I
> don't believe this is possible, or at least not easily done. So, I
> thought it might be easier to incorporate a "shadow" club (which in
> essence is the AzVJC) and get the memberships via that club for the
> AzVJC members that wanted to participate; the added bonus being that
> it would be cheaper.
>
> So to answer the question about splitting, or 2 websites, 2 lists the
> answer is no. All this is, is an attempt to get more people to join
> ASA4WDC and United and get their Land Use Permits. If the end result
> is that we can do this without incorporation then I am 100% for it.
>
> My intent by introducing this thread is to 1. get it talked about so
> new members know more. 2. Get SOMETHING established to make things
> easier for our members to get their ASA4WDC & United Memberships and
> their State Land Use Permit.
>
> Now that everyone has seen both sides of the debate, offer
> suggestions on what you think is the best way to accomplish then end
> goal which is to get as many members as the AzVJC as possible signed
> up with ASA4WDC and United and get them their State Land Use permits.
>
> - Mike
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44572 From: Brian Hill <brian@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:19pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Which one flies?
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Kruize [mailto:scottkruize@e...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:46 PM
To: 'Eric Marble'; 'Brian Hill'; arizonajeep@c...;
az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; 'Chris Krieg'
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
<< File: cessna.JPG >> YEP!
-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Marble [mailto:emarble3@p...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:23 PM
To: Brian Hill; arizonajeep@c...; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; Chris Krieg
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Rumor has it Joe's going to take his reading program to the skies to
reach more chillens.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
To: "Eric Marble" <EMarble3@p...>; "Brian Hill"
<brian@a...>; <arizonajeep@c...>;
<az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> LMAO!!
>
> Chris
>
> > From: "Eric Marble" <EMarble3@p...>
> > Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:08:20 -0700
> > To: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>, <arizonajeep@c...>,
> > <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>, "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> > If it wasn't for Joes Jeep how would the little ones learn to read?
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
> > To: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>; <arizonajeep@c...>;
> > <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:46 PM
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> >> OK, that is way beyond what is called for!
> >> Do you know Joe and how many people he has helped? If not, Shut the
hell
> > up!
> >> Joe has contibuted more to this group than a large majority of the
> > members.
> >> He will drop what he is doing to help a fellow Jeeper. The fact
> >> that
you
> >> don't know this shows your ignorance.
> >> Losing Joe would be a major asset loss for this group. If you don't
know
> >> that, you have a long way to go.
> >>
> >> Chris
> >>
> >>> From: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>
> >>> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:35:53 -0700
> >>> To: arizonajeep@c..., "'Chatfield, Mike'"
> >>> <Mike@A...>, az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> >>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>>
> >>> Promise?
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> >>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:09 PM
> >>> To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> >>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>>
> >>> Mike,
> >>>
> >>> I'm not talking legal anything... I'm against ANYONE who chooses
> >>> to
> > divide
> >>> (shadow... whatever word you choose to use) the Arizona Virtual
> >>> Jeep
> > Club.
> >>> Unless you get a simple majority (1 vote greater than half the
> >>> current membership count) voting for this shadow club... I will
> >>> believe that
it
> > was
> >>> the wrong thing to do. If you do manage to get a simple majority
> >>> for
> > this
> >>> new "real" club, I will believe that it was the right thing for
> >>> the
club
> > to
> >>> do... but the wrong thing for me... at which point I will silently
> >>> go
> > away.
> >>>
> >>> I'm against it Mike, because I am all too familiar with the
divisiveness
> > of
> >>> "real" groups... Although you have put a great deal of time into
> >>> our
> > club
> >>> webpage, it does not authorize you to take our name and give it to
> > another
> >>> group. Even the original six members voting for it cannot
> >>> authorize
> > this
> >>> change... there must be a majority vote for this to be a fair and
honest
> >>> change.
> >>>
> >>> The spirit of this club will change Mike... and there is nothing
> >>> you,
or
> >>> anyone else, will be able to do to stop it. We don't need rules,
> >>> or
> > bylaws,
> >>> or a board of directors and incorporation... You are pressing for
> > change
> >>> which will ultimately redefine our group and I don't want this to
> > happen.
> >>>
> >>> Joe
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> >>>> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> >>>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
> >>>> entity) has legal
> >>>> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it, the
> >>>> AzVJC never incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore
> >>>> it can't own anything
> >>>> (including the copyrighted webpages).
> >>>>
> >>>> Just something to think about.
> >>>>
> >>>> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want to
> >>>> be a part of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to
> >>>> change unless YOU make
> >>>> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
> >>>>
> >>>> - Mike
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> >>>> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> >>>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a
> >>>> good idea for those who need it... do not however, try to relate
> >>>> it to the
AZVJC....
> >>>> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
> >>>> everyone's authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The
> >>>> new club must be separate, and must not be liked to our current
> >>>> website any more than any
> >>>> other club currently is.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44573 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:12pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
Just so you know...I got this note too...LOL - Not sure if it went to the
entire list or just me...
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Kruize" <scottkruize@e...>
To: "'az_jeeper_mike'" <azvjc@a...>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:45 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> Mike,
>
> I sent this privately. I'm keeping my public opinion quiet until others
> have had a chance to speak. I don't want to turn the list into a buly
> pulpit as JW has.
>
> I want you to know that I really like your idea. It's a shame that so
> few really see it as the easiest way to get the benefits of being
> organized without the usual pains of an organized club.
>
> Once again I appreciate the effort!
>
> Scott Kruize
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:06 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > the reason I'm against this is because anytime you make rules,
>
> No rules.. that is what are by-laws are going to say "There Are No
> Rules." (well actually just the ones that ALREADY EXIST and are
> POSTED ON THE WEBSITE)
>
>
> > put people in positions of authority over other people... or a group
> > of people, things change.
>
> Hmmm, things change, eh? I've been the webmaster for what almost 2
> years? And the group moderator for about a year? What things have
> you seen change other than added features (OPTIONS) to the website?
> Could I be abusive with my powers? You bet I could, but I am not. I
> have not once removed a member from either the list or the website
> without THEM asking me to do so. So you see someone already is
> in "position of authority" as you put it.
>
> Once again let me reiterate, this is about an OPTION pure and simple.
> If you think that by not voluntarily paying dues, that this means
> that you're not part of the AzVJC then by the same token if you're
> not using every single feature of the AzVJC website you're not part
> of the AzVJC. And I have yet to see your Rig in the Whoops section. ;)
>
> - Mike
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44574 From: Brian Hill <brian@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:26pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Me too
-----Original Message-----
From: DougB [mailto:azjeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:13 PM
To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; Scott Kruize
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Just so you know...I got this note too...LOL - Not sure if it went to the
entire list or just me...
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Kruize" <scottkruize@e...>
To: "'az_jeeper_mike'" <azvjc@a...>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:45 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> Mike,
>
> I sent this privately. I'm keeping my public opinion quiet until others
> have had a chance to speak. I don't want to turn the list into a buly
> pulpit as JW has.
>
> I want you to know that I really like your idea. It's a shame that so
> few really see it as the easiest way to get the benefits of being
> organized without the usual pains of an organized club.
>
> Once again I appreciate the effort!
>
> Scott Kruize
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:06 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > the reason I'm against this is because anytime you make rules,
>
> No rules.. that is what are by-laws are going to say "There Are No
> Rules." (well actually just the ones that ALREADY EXIST and are
> POSTED ON THE WEBSITE)
>
>
> > put people in positions of authority over other people... or a group
> > of people, things change.
>
> Hmmm, things change, eh? I've been the webmaster for what almost 2
> years? And the group moderator for about a year? What things have
> you seen change other than added features (OPTIONS) to the website?
> Could I be abusive with my powers? You bet I could, but I am not. I
> have not once removed a member from either the list or the website
> without THEM asking me to do so. So you see someone already is
> in "position of authority" as you put it.
>
> Once again let me reiterate, this is about an OPTION pure and simple.
> If you think that by not voluntarily paying dues, that this means
> that you're not part of the AzVJC then by the same token if you're
> not using every single feature of the AzVJC website you're not part
> of the AzVJC. And I have yet to see your Rig in the Whoops section. ;)
>
> - Mike
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44575 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:22pm
Subject: RE: Re: Random Input
It is better as individual memberships, IMO. Agencies count beans....the
more beans, the more it means towards something. Far too easy for a greenie
group to print something like "Only 187 land use permits were issued in
2001". When in reality, that might very well have covered 1292 off-road
vehicles. (just making up numbers here)
Timber Chucker!
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
-----Original Message-----
From: jetowle2000 [mailto:James.Towle@a...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:57 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Random Input
Is that an "Amen" to keep you out of the "muddled water"? Or
an "Amen" for individual membership is better than group?
Or maybe both :) .
--James
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...> wrote:
> Amen!
>
> Stu Olson
> www.stu-offroad.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jetowle2000 [mailto:James.Towle@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:49 PM
> To: az_vjc@y...
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Random Input
>
>
>
> I thought it was better in some ways.
> I thought as a group you only needed to have one permit. Thus, in
the
> government's eye, showing that there is only, let's say 10 groups
as
> aposed to 200 people. When they count they count only the permits
> assigned, not the people using those permits. This gives them an
> unsually low count on how many people are actually using land.
>
> I thought Stu had brought this up once, not to drag Stu into this
> muddled water.
>
> --James
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Clay Forrester" <allvol@c...> wrote:
> > "contributing directly to ASA4WD or the BRC as an INDIVIDUAL the
> same, or
> > even better, than paying club dues" Yes, this is a GREAT way to
> help keep
> > the trails open. Sorry for the late response....just got home
from
> work.
> >
> >
> > Clay Forrester
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <tandljacobson@a...>
> > To: <az_vjc@y...>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:07 AM
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Random Input
> >
> >
> > > Message: 19
> > > Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:59:40 -0700
> > > From: "Clay Forrester" <allvol@c...>
> > > Subject: Re: Thanks (more)........
> > >
> > > "...They will ALL be shut
> > > down and the land closed off.
> > >
> > >
> > > Zilla
> > >
> > > Except for those secret new trails that you need a small, uhh,
> errr, unit
> > to run! Only kidding!!! <bob, weave, duck incoming flames!>
> > >
> > > Regarding the other post about club membership...I tend to
agree
> with the
> > folks who do not prefer to belong to additional, organized
clubs.
> I know
> > people who both do and don't, but I'm not interested. But a
> question, isn't
> > contributing directly to ASA4WD or the BRC as an INDIVIDUAL the
> same, or
> > even better, than paying club dues, of which only a portion go to
> land
> > access groups?
> > >
> > > And a quick jab to Stu - if you start going by "Timber
Chucker",
> you're
> > gonna have to disregard all your own advice since it's coming
from
> a "screen
> > name"! ;-)
> > >
> > > Finally...is anyone thinking about a rock-unstacking run for an
> FJ trail
> > yet? Upper WP? Ajax? Might try to get in on the Terminator
> cleanup, but
> > have never run it...minimum Jeep requirements?
> > >
> > > TJ (errr, Tom Jacobson)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44576 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:19pm
Subject: Re: My final post......(please read)
Don't feel you have to leave. The info you posted can help people and that's
a good thing.
You are welcome here
Chris K
> From: "scramzilla" <allvol@c...>
> Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 04:07:37 -0000
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] My final post......(please read)
>
> I would like to thank all the people that took the time to respond to
> the messages that I have posted over the last few days. I have
> learned a lot and have made several new friends. Other than a
> miss/cross post that I had with Stu and the two people that hate me
> (and I hate them)<Not you Stu :-))) Every single post that I
> received, (hundreds of them), were all positive for the most part and
> that is amazing........ I am now going back to posting on my own
> boards and let the chips fall where they may with regards to what all
> of "you" decide to do with "your" Club. I was very much an outsider
> here but many of you have made me feel welcomed and for that I am
> grateful.
>
> Happy Trails,
>
> Clay Forrester
>
> PS: My email is allvol@c... You can send me an email any time any
> I will get back to you as soon as possible. I will be subscribed to
> this message board the rest of the night but after that, I think that
> I should move on.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Zilla
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44577 From: Mark Mesalam <m_mesalam@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:20pm
Subject: FW: Re: Organized Clubs
Went to the entire list, 'cause I got it too....and this one...so much for
private message...
-----Original Message-----
From: DougB [mailto:azjeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:13 PM
To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; Scott Kruize
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Just so you know...I got this note too...LOL - Not sure if it went to the
entire list or just me...
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Kruize" <scottkruize@e...>
To: "'az_jeeper_mike'" <azvjc@a...>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:45 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> Mike,
>
> I sent this privately. I'm keeping my public opinion quiet until others
> have had a chance to speak. I don't want to turn the list into a buly
> pulpit as JW has.
>
> I want you to know that I really like your idea. It's a shame that so
> few really see it as the easiest way to get the benefits of being
> organized without the usual pains of an organized club.
>
> Once again I appreciate the effort!
>
> Scott Kruize
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:06 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > the reason I'm against this is because anytime you make rules,
>
> No rules.. that is what are by-laws are going to say "There Are No
> Rules." (well actually just the ones that ALREADY EXIST and are
> POSTED ON THE WEBSITE)
>
>
> > put people in positions of authority over other people... or a group
> > of people, things change.
>
> Hmmm, things change, eh? I've been the webmaster for what almost 2
> years? And the group moderator for about a year? What things have
> you seen change other than added features (OPTIONS) to the website?
> Could I be abusive with my powers? You bet I could, but I am not. I
> have not once removed a member from either the list or the website
> without THEM asking me to do so. So you see someone already is
> in "position of authority" as you put it.
>
> Once again let me reiterate, this is about an OPTION pure and simple.
> If you think that by not voluntarily paying dues, that this means
> that you're not part of the AzVJC then by the same token if you're
> not using every single feature of the AzVJC website you're not part
> of the AzVJC. And I have yet to see your Rig in the Whoops section. ;)
>
> - Mike
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44578 From: Neal Han**** <azredrocker@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:21pm
Subject: RE: Organize, NOT!!
Okay you all, there is no way that this group will ever agree on to incorp. or not to incorp. No matter what you all will need to obtain State Trust Land permits. Barry at FourWheelers, 602-273-7195 or Sandee McCullen sells them. Hope to meet some of you this weekend in FJ and put a face with a name.
Neal Han****, Maverick Offroad's Red 74 CJ 5,
Scott Kruize wrote:
Michael,
I can think of several members that have registered on the list several
times due to problems with their email account. Wouldn't it be funny if
all of us had done this a couple of times? How about 512 members, 256
votes?
This is not an accurate way to count unless you are the FLVJC. (Florida
Virtual Jeep Club;)
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: Baja Fleg [mailto:fleigle@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 5:17 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Organize, NOT!!
Mike
The current AZVJC membership is at 1023. So to get your AZVJC inc. plan
approved you would need to get 512 yes votes, right now you have 13. If
you
can 512 HONEST yes votes then even I would have to agree it was the
right
thing to do. You know that if press this much farther your only going
to
start a war among us then the only people you will really be helping is
the
Eco Nazis. Lets all stand back and give Mike his week, he only needs
499
yes votes.
Michael
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44579 From: Scott Kruize <scottkruize@e...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:21pm
Subject: RE: My final post......(please read)
I hope you continue to lurk and post. It doesn't hurt to shake up the
group a little.
Later,
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: scramzilla [mailto:allvol@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:08 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] My final post......(please read)
I would like to thank all the people that took the time to respond to
the messages that I have posted over the last few days. I have
learned a lot and have made several new friends. Other than a
miss/cross post that I had with Stu and the two people that hate me
(and I hate them)<Not you Stu :-))) Every single post that I
received, (hundreds of them), were all positive for the most part and
that is amazing........ I am now going back to posting on my own
boards and let the chips fall where they may with regards to what all
of "you" decide to do with "your" Club. I was very much an outsider
here but many of you have made me feel welcomed and for that I am
grateful.
Happy Trails,
Clay Forrester
PS: My email is allvol@c... You can send me an email any time any
I will get back to you as soon as possible. I will be subscribed to
this message board the rest of the night but after that, I think that
I should move on.
Thanks again,
Zilla
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44580 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:25pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs: Mike's response to DougB
Its the star-bellied Sneetches thing again.
Chris K
> From: "Scott Kruize" <scottkruize@e...>
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs: Mike's response to DougB
>
> ...How about having Jr and Sr members? Senior members
> are dues paying members, Junior members are free to lurk and post on the
> list, join any run they want as they currently do. There is only a
> handful of real Pirate members though hundreds of people participate on
> their list, etc.
>
> Scott K
>
44581 From: dthorton_2000 <dt_horton@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:28pm
Subject: Re: AzVJC Mailing List Stats
FWIW,
I read & post through the Yahoo Groups site (the new pop-up
ads suck!). I prefer to pick & choose which topics to view. More
like a BBS, less to weed through.
Dan
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...> wrote:
> I just exported the list into Excel to do some calculations
because I was
> curious.
>
> Of the 1022 supposed members of the Group List, there are
currently only 897
> (I'm guessing that Yahoo Groups still counts those that have
dropped the
> list?)
>
> So with that in mind:
>
> Dropped from the List: 125
> Elected to Receive NO E-Mail: 527
> Elected to Receive Daily Digests: 111
> Elected to Receive Individual E-Mails: 259
>
> But I wonder how many of the "No E-Mail" actually come and
read messages on
> the web.
>
> - Mike
44582 From: Scott Kruize <scottkruize@e...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:28pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Oh well.. The cat is out of the bag. I sent it to Az_Jeeper_Mike which
is azvjc@a... and somehow it got rerouted to the AZVJC.
Anyway I guess I will state that I am all for membership in the ASA4WDC
and getting a State Land trust Permit and commend Mike in his efforts to
encourage the members to do so. His heart was in the right place but
somehow he got misunderstood. I am not in favor of formally organizing
the group. But I'd like to see more of you get these these memberships
and permits. If Mike can do something to help us achieve that goal by
creating a link then go for it. If for whatever reason there is a need
to incorporate to achieve the goal of registering said people because of
the problem of collecting signatures on the website than so be it. Its
not the end of the world folks!
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@a...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:27 PM
To: DougB; 'az_jeeper_mike'; Scott Kruize
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Me too
-----Original Message-----
From: DougB [mailto:azjeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:13 PM
To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; Scott Kruize
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Just so you know...I got this note too...LOL - Not sure if it went to
the entire list or just me...
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Kruize" <scottkruize@e...>
To: "'az_jeeper_mike'" <azvjc@a...>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:45 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> Mike,
>
> I sent this privately. I'm keeping my public opinion quiet until
> others have had a chance to speak. I don't want to turn the list into
> a buly pulpit as JW has.
>
> I want you to know that I really like your idea. It's a shame that so
> few really see it as the easiest way to get the benefits of being
> organized without the usual pains of an organized club.
>
> Once again I appreciate the effort!
>
> Scott Kruize
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:06 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > the reason I'm against this is because anytime you make rules,
>
> No rules.. that is what are by-laws are going to say "There Are No
> Rules." (well actually just the ones that ALREADY EXIST and are POSTED
> ON THE WEBSITE)
>
>
> > put people in positions of authority over other people... or a group
> > of people, things change.
>
> Hmmm, things change, eh? I've been the webmaster for what almost 2
> years? And the group moderator for about a year? What things have you
> seen change other than added features (OPTIONS) to the website? Could
> I be abusive with my powers? You bet I could, but I am not. I have not
> once removed a member from either the list or the website without THEM
> asking me to do so. So you see someone already is in "position of
> authority" as you put it.
>
> Once again let me reiterate, this is about an OPTION pure and simple.
> If you think that by not voluntarily paying dues, that this means that
> you're not part of the AzVJC then by the same token if you're not
> using every single feature of the AzVJC website you're not part of the
> AzVJC. And I have yet to see your Rig in the Whoops section. ;)
>
> - Mike
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44583 From: Clay Forrester <allvol@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:27pm
Subject: Re: My final post......(please read)
No no....No one has made me feel like I should leave.....I just think I'm
too bias in my stanch opinion that everyone should be involved in some way
or another (most of you are)........ and especially the $25.00 a year to
ASA. I think if I keep posting here and sticking my nose back in this issue,
it could do more harm that good.......and I just could not help myself. :-)
Clay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
To: "scramzilla" <allvol@c...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:19 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] My final post......(please read)
> Don't feel you have to leave. The info you posted can help people and
that's
> a good thing.
>
> You are welcome here
>
> Chris K
>
> > From: "scramzilla" <allvol@c...>
> > Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 04:07:37 -0000
> > To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [az_vjc] My final post......(please read)
> >
> > I would like to thank all the people that took the time to respond to
> > the messages that I have posted over the last few days. I have
> > learned a lot and have made several new friends. Other than a
> > miss/cross post that I had with Stu and the two people that hate me
> > (and I hate them)<Not you Stu :-))) Every single post that I
> > received, (hundreds of them), were all positive for the most part and
> > that is amazing........ I am now going back to posting on my own
> > boards and let the chips fall where they may with regards to what all
> > of "you" decide to do with "your" Club. I was very much an outsider
> > here but many of you have made me feel welcomed and for that I am
> > grateful.
> >
> > Happy Trails,
> >
> > Clay Forrester
> >
> > PS: My email is allvol@c... You can send me an email any time any
> > I will get back to you as soon as possible. I will be subscribed to
> > this message board the rest of the night but after that, I think that
> > I should move on.
> >
> > Thanks again,
> >
> > Zilla
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
44584 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:30pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs: Mike's response to DougB
...and we can give the junior members AzVJC lollipops :o)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Kruize" <scottkruize@e...>
To: "'az_jeeper_mike'" <azvjc@a...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:08 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs: Mike's response to DougB
> Mike,
>
> I think you got off on the wrong foot by introducing the "O" word. Many
> people began loading their rounds and firing before war was declared ;)
> This led to a civil war with no basis for it.
>
> (This is only a brainstorm. Not necessarily my opinion or desire.) To
> expand on your idea...How about having Jr and Sr members? Senior members
> are dues paying members, Junior members are free to lurk and post on the
> list, join any run they want as they currently do. There is only a
> handful of real Pirate members though hundreds of people participate on
> their list, etc.
>
> Scott K
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 5:30 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs: Mike's response to DougB
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "DougB" <azjeep@c...> wrote:
> > Mike...I realize you've given this some thought, and before I add too
> > much to the fray, I'd like to know how it would be proposed to operate
>
> > in terms of communication (maybe you've answered these things and I
> > just haven't gotten to them yet). Would there be 2 separate lists? 2
> > web sites? 2 trail lists, secret handshake :o) etc. Not sure I
> > completely understand the function of the shadow AzJC...
>
> Ok, here it goes. Actually I can understand the concern over this
> issue, originally I was completely against it. After talking with
> Sandee McCullen, however, I am only slightly against it (yea, you
> read right, against it; just consider me the lawyer that is
> representing a client whose cause he doesn't completely agree with?)
> What changed my opinion was the fact that Sandee said we could
> incorporate without having elections, meetings, etc.. But it does
> require at least 3 "officers" and By Laws, but the officers don't
> have to have any real duties, and the by laws only have to say that
> we don't have any rules, elections, meetings etc...
>
> What I've tried to arrange in the past is to let me create a webpage
> where members could join ASA4WDC and pay via PayPal on their own.
> However, Sandee mentioned that Individual memberships may be going
> away. With this in mind, that means in order for an individual to
> become a member of the ASA4WDC, he/she has to join a ASA4WDC Club.
> Also, this does not take into account United or State Land Use (which
> I still need to get myself one for this year).
>
> What I really want to do is to provide a one stop shopping place for
> Members of the AzVJC to get the ASA4WDC membership, the United
> Membership and the State Land Use Permit. What I'd like is to receive
> money via PayPal and send off the applications for the members, but I
> don't believe this is possible, or at least not easily done. So, I
> thought it might be easier to incorporate a "shadow" club (which in
> essence is the AzVJC) and get the memberships via that club for the
> AzVJC members that wanted to participate; the added bonus being that
> it would be cheaper.
>
> So to answer the question about splitting, or 2 websites, 2 lists the
> answer is no. All this is, is an attempt to get more people to join
> ASA4WDC and United and get their Land Use Permits. If the end result
> is that we can do this without incorporation then I am 100% for it.
>
> My intent by introducing this thread is to 1. get it talked about so
> new members know more. 2. Get SOMETHING established to make things
> easier for our members to get their ASA4WDC & United Memberships and
> their State Land Use Permit.
>
> Now that everyone has seen both sides of the debate, offer
> suggestions on what you think is the best way to accomplish then end
> goal which is to get as many members as the AzVJC as possible signed
> up with ASA4WDC and United and get them their State Land Use permits.
>
> - Mike
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44585 From: Clay Forrester <allvol@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:29pm
Subject: Re: My final post......(please read)
That could be very dangerous for me. :-)) I can't keep my mouth shut.
Clay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Kruize" <scottkruize@e...>
To: "'scramzilla'" <allvol@c...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:21 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] My final post......(please read)
> I hope you continue to lurk and post. It doesn't hurt to shake up the
> group a little.
>
> Later,
>
> Scott K
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: scramzilla [mailto:allvol@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:08 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] My final post......(please read)
>
>
> I would like to thank all the people that took the time to respond to
> the messages that I have posted over the last few days. I have
> learned a lot and have made several new friends. Other than a
> miss/cross post that I had with Stu and the two people that hate me
> (and I hate them)<Not you Stu :-))) Every single post that I
> received, (hundreds of them), were all positive for the most part and
> that is amazing........ I am now going back to posting on my own
> boards and let the chips fall where they may with regards to what all
> of "you" decide to do with "your" Club. I was very much an outsider
> here but many of you have made me feel welcomed and for that I am
> grateful.
>
> Happy Trails,
>
> Clay Forrester
>
> PS: My email is allvol@c... You can send me an email any time any
> I will get back to you as soon as possible. I will be subscribed to
> this message board the rest of the night but after that, I think that
> I should move on.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Zilla
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44586 From: Scott Kruize <scottkruize@e...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:30pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Oh yeah, I'm sure my friend JW will inderstand the bully comment. If he
doesn't yet realize it, he's a pitbull at heart!
Do we need to vote on that?
LOL
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Kruize [mailto:scottkruize@e...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:29 PM
To: 'Brian Hill'; 'DougB'; 'az_jeeper_mike'
Cc: AZ_VJC
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Oh well.. The cat is out of the bag. I sent it to Az_Jeeper_Mike which
is azvjc@a... and somehow it got rerouted to the AZVJC.
Anyway I guess I will state that I am all for membership in the ASA4WDC
and getting a State Land trust Permit and commend Mike in his efforts to
encourage the members to do so. His heart was in the right place but
somehow he got misunderstood. I am not in favor of formally organizing
the group. But I'd like to see more of you get these these memberships
and permits. If Mike can do something to help us achieve that goal by
creating a link then go for it. If for whatever reason there is a need
to incorporate to achieve the goal of registering said people because of
the problem of collecting signatures on the website than so be it. Its
not the end of the world folks!
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@a...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:27 PM
To: DougB; 'az_jeeper_mike'; Scott Kruize
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Me too
-----Original Message-----
From: DougB [mailto:azjeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:13 PM
To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; Scott Kruize
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Just so you know...I got this note too...LOL - Not sure if it went to
the entire list or just me...
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Kruize" <scottkruize@e...>
To: "'az_jeeper_mike'" <azvjc@a...>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:45 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> Mike,
>
> I sent this privately. I'm keeping my public opinion quiet until
> others have had a chance to speak. I don't want to turn the list into
> a buly pulpit as JW has.
>
> I want you to know that I really like your idea. It's a shame that so
> few really see it as the easiest way to get the benefits of being
> organized without the usual pains of an organized club.
>
> Once again I appreciate the effort!
>
> Scott Kruize
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:06 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > the reason I'm against this is because anytime you make rules,
>
> No rules.. that is what are by-laws are going to say "There Are No
> Rules." (well actually just the ones that ALREADY EXIST and are POSTED
> ON THE WEBSITE)
>
>
> > put people in positions of authority over other people... or a group
> > of people, things change.
>
> Hmmm, things change, eh? I've been the webmaster for what almost 2
> years? And the group moderator for about a year? What things have you
> seen change other than added features (OPTIONS) to the website? Could
> I be abusive with my powers? You bet I could, but I am not. I have not
> once removed a member from either the list or the website without THEM
> asking me to do so. So you see someone already is in "position of
> authority" as you put it.
>
> Once again let me reiterate, this is about an OPTION pure and simple.
> If you think that by not voluntarily paying dues, that this means that
> you're not part of the AzVJC then by the same token if you're not
> using every single feature of the AzVJC website you're not part of the
> AzVJC. And I have yet to see your Rig in the Whoops section. ;)
>
> - Mike
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44562 From: Scott Kruize <scottkruize@e...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:53pm
Subject: RE: Organized Clubs
Joey,
I think David needs to put his stickers on some magnetic material. That way he can add and remove them as his mood suits him. ;)
David,
You're a good guy to have around here...I hope you stick around. I got some spare stickers for you if it's too late...... :)
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: DesertJeep [mailto:joey@desertjeep.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:49 PM
To: David R. W. Withers; 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Organized Clubs
again?
Joey K
-----Original Message-----
From: David R. W. Withers [mailto:dr_ww@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:56 PM
To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Organized Clubs
Importance: High
Looks like my stickers are coming off!!!
Leave it alone. If I want to give money to dues, I'll give it to the ASA4wdc.
let me know when this happens so I may remove myself form the e-mail list
Sincerely
David R. W. Withers
-----Original Message-----
From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@AzChatfield.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:29 AM
To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [az_vjc] Organized Clubs
To all of those that already belong to an organized club, you may now delete this message (or continue reading if you're curious).
For everyone here that is interested:
I talked to Sandee McCullen at the cleanup in January and have been trying to figure out a way to bring this up to the group. Well it looks like this may be the perfect time with all that has happened in the past day or so.
We can make the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club an incorporated club and become a member club of the Arizona State Association of 4WD Clubs WITHOUT organizing (at least not any more than we already have). Sandee said that we need three "officers" and bylaws, we don't have to have membership requirements, elections, "official" club runs. All the bylaws have to say is who the officers are, how new members join, and when we have meetings (even if it is never).
Here is the way it would work. As it is now, anyone can join the AzVJC via the website and post messages to the group, this WILL NOT change. What changes is, once someone has joined the AzVJC and gone on one run (so we can verify that they live in Arizona and HAVE a JEEP) then they can join the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated (AzVJC Inc). All they have to do is pay their dues for the year. If they want to drop out of the AzVJC Inc then they just don't pay the dues; it doesn't mean that they will be dropped from the website or mailing list. Nothing else changes... all we're doing is adding another option for our members.
Here is what I'm thinking for the incorporation:
For the three officers:
President - Responsible for turning in New Membership Information to ASA4WDC, attend ASA4WDC meetings. (I nominate DougB if he's interested)
Treasurer - Responsible for collecting money from members and paying ASA4WDC and Az State. (I nominate Jon Loveless, if he's interested, since he already does alot with stickers, etc...)
Webmaster - Responsible for maintaining the website and e-mail list.
How to become a New Member: 1. Join the AzVJC 2. Go on a run with the AzVJC (with at least one member of the AzVJC Inc present) 3. Pay Dues. That's it.
How to become a Non Member: 1. Don't pay your dues.
Meetings and Elections: None. If a club officer steps down, he/she chooses the replacement.
Dues: I am thinking since Az State has decided that clubs are only allowed 2 runs per month that we just include an individual permit in the cost of the dues for the year. This way members of the AzVJC Inc are double covered and they won't have to remember to get one every year (like me). Also included in the cost of dues would be ASA4WDC membership. Because of the incorporation, we'll likely have to start paying for the webspace (which we currently get for free) which is $21.25/month. We could also include things like paying to get rid of advertisements on Yahoo Groups, extra stickers to hand out at events, flyers, banners, etc... I estimate roughly $40/year which is right in line with most clubs.
The benefits are: 1. The AzVJC will be covered by the ASA4WDC million dollar insurance. 2. ASA4WDC and united will get more money to fight the eco-nazis. 3. The AzVJC will finally be recognized as the largest club at the ASA4WDC Jamboree :) 4. I'm sure there's more but my mind is drawing a blank.
The downside is: 1. Paying Dues. 2. There are no other downsides, other than paying dues, nothing changes, and you only have to pay dues if you want to (you just remain a member of AzVJC but not AzVJC Inc).
Does this make sense? I'll post a poll to find out how many may be interested. The initial start up costs will depend on the number of people starting the AzVJC Inc as incorporation can initially be expensive ($500?) ALSO, if anyone has been through the incorporation process before, we could use your assistance.
Thanks,
- Mike
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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44563 From: jetowle2000 <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:56pm
Subject: Re: Random Input
Is that an "Amen" to keep you out of the "muddled water"? Or
an "Amen" for individual membership is better than group?
Or maybe both :) .
--James
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...> wrote:
> Amen!
>
> Stu Olson
> www.stu-offroad.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jetowle2000 [mailto:James.Towle@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:49 PM
> To: az_vjc@y...
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Random Input
>
>
>
> I thought it was better in some ways.
> I thought as a group you only needed to have one permit. Thus, in
the
> government's eye, showing that there is only, let's say 10 groups
as
> aposed to 200 people. When they count they count only the permits
> assigned, not the people using those permits. This gives them an
> unsually low count on how many people are actually using land.
>
> I thought Stu had brought this up once, not to drag Stu into this
> muddled water.
>
> --James
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Clay Forrester" <allvol@c...> wrote:
> > "contributing directly to ASA4WD or the BRC as an INDIVIDUAL the
> same, or
> > even better, than paying club dues" Yes, this is a GREAT way to
> help keep
> > the trails open. Sorry for the late response....just got home
from
> work.
> >
> >
> > Clay Forrester
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <tandljacobson@a...>
> > To: <az_vjc@y...>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:07 AM
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Random Input
> >
> >
> > > Message: 19
> > > Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:59:40 -0700
> > > From: "Clay Forrester" <allvol@c...>
> > > Subject: Re: Thanks (more)........
> > >
> > > "...They will ALL be shut
> > > down and the land closed off.
> > >
> > >
> > > Zilla
> > >
> > > Except for those secret new trails that you need a small, uhh,
> errr, unit
> > to run! Only kidding!!! <bob, weave, duck incoming flames!>
> > >
> > > Regarding the other post about club membership...I tend to
agree
> with the
> > folks who do not prefer to belong to additional, organized
clubs.
> I know
> > people who both do and don't, but I'm not interested. But a
> question, isn't
> > contributing directly to ASA4WD or the BRC as an INDIVIDUAL the
> same, or
> > even better, than paying club dues, of which only a portion go to
> land
> > access groups?
> > >
> > > And a quick jab to Stu - if you start going by "Timber
Chucker",
> you're
> > gonna have to disregard all your own advice since it's coming
from
> a "screen
> > name"! ;-)
> > >
> > > Finally...is anyone thinking about a rock-unstacking run for an
> FJ trail
> > yet? Upper WP? Ajax? Might try to get in on the Terminator
> cleanup, but
> > have never run it...minimum Jeep requirements?
> > >
> > > TJ (errr, Tom Jacobson)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44564 From: Scott Kruize <scottkruize@e...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:58pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Doug,
That was another friend of mine at that time, just as my friend Joe is
now doing. By forming an alter AZVJC group on Yahoo he has done exactly
the same as the friend did back then. I am not in favor of this either.
Said individuals are instigating their own division of the group.
Can't we all just get along??????
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: DougB [mailto:azjeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 5:17 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; Chatfield, Mike
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
I disagree with you there, Mike. While it may be possible legally to
take the name for another group, it would still be wrong. I recall when
someone (can't recall who) got pissed off and started a second AzVJC. I
protested it then as being tacky and wrong. Didn't care about setting up
another club, but suggested that they not steal the name. I think they
fizzled out anyway. I don't think your necessarily proposing this...but
just want to voice my opinion on it.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non entity) has
> legal right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it, the
> AzVJC
never
> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't own
> anything (including the copyrighted webpages).
>
> Just something to think about.
>
> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want to be a
> part of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change unless
> YOU make the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR
> CHOICE.
>
> - Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a good
> idea
for
> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
> everyone's authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new
> club must be separate, and must not be liked to our current website
> any more than any other club currently is.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44565 From: Ralph Williams <ralphbw@q...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:59pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
If there is an AVJC Inc.
Will it then be limited to two runs a month on State land?
I doubt you will separate the two entities in the eyes of the
gov'mint...
If this is true, doncha think this may be a BAD IDEA?
Ain't going to mess around cutting and pasting the html posts so
you will have to live without any quoting.
Ralph
44566 From: Nick Gasmena <horizon@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:01pm
Subject: Re: AzVJC Mailing List Stats
My buddy isnt on the mailing list, but looks for runs and 4x info on the site.. so theres 1 ;oP
Nick Gasmena - nickg@huskiesonline.com
-----------------------
Horizon Web Site - Http://www.HuskiesOnline.Com
My Jeep Pictures - http://www.azvjc.org/Gallery/View.asp?U=1637
My 4x4 Site - Http://www.huskiesonline.com/offroad
----- Original Message -----
From: Chatfield, Mike
To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:32 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] AzVJC Mailing List Stats
All of those are good. If they go bad, they get dropped and added to the "Bouncing" list.
- Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Mesalam [mailto:m_mesalam@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:32 PM
To: Chatfield, Mike; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] AzVJC Mailing List Stats
Mike, of the 111 and the 259, is there a list generated of the "no good" addresses? Or are they all good?
-----Original Message-----
From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@AzChatfield.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:14 PM
To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [az_vjc] AzVJC Mailing List Stats
I just exported the list into Excel to do some calculations because I was curious.
Of the 1022 supposed members of the Group List, there are currently only 897 (I'm guessing that Yahoo Groups still counts those that have dropped the list?)
So with that in mind:
Dropped from the List: 125
Elected to Receive NO E-Mail: 527
Elected to Receive Daily Digests: 111
Elected to Receive Individual E-Mails: 259
But I wonder how many of the "No E-Mail" actually come and read messages on the web.
- Mike
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
44567 From: Scott Kruize <scottkruize@e...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:02pm
Subject: RE: Organize, NOT!!
Michael,
I can think of several members that have registered on the list several
times due to problems with their email account. Wouldn't it be funny if
all of us had done this a couple of times? How about 512 members, 256
votes?
This is not an accurate way to count unless you are the FLVJC. (Florida
Virtual Jeep Club;)
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: Baja Fleg [mailto:fleigle@h...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 5:17 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Organize, NOT!!
Mike
The current AZVJC membership is at 1023. So to get your AZVJC inc. plan
approved you would need to get 512 yes votes, right now you have 13. If
you
can 512 HONEST yes votes then even I would have to agree it was the
right
thing to do. You know that if press this much farther your only going
to
start a war among us then the only people you will really be helping is
the
Eco Nazis. Lets all stand back and give Mike his week, he only needs
499
yes votes.
Michael
__________________________________________________ _______________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44568 From: Ross Skinner <rskinner@s...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:58pm
Subject: RE: Organize, NOT!!
Are we done yet? My eyes are drying out from scanning all of these emails.
No....again
Ross
-----Original Message-----
From: DougB [mailto:azjeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:42 PM
To: Baja Fleg; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; jimmy lambertus
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Organize, NOT!!
FWIW, I don't think that Mike was proposing to organize as much as he was
trying to off a solution to the status of AzVJC by ASA and making it easier
to contribute. Personally, I like it the way it is, but I appreciate the
effort and suggestion. Perhaps there are some other ideas that can be
explored beyond the big "O".
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "jimmy lambertus" <jeepnazus@y...>
To: "Baja Fleg" <fleigle@h...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Organize, NOT!!
>
> --- It sounds to me like all Mike really wants is to
> make it easier for the 1000 or so members to
> contribute to our sport and be recognized as the
> entity that the AZVJC has become (organized or not ).
> Now if everyone would put as much effort into
> accomplishing that as they have into *****ing about
> becomming incorporated we might find a solution.I have
> heard alot of comments about joining a real club well
> the reason I joined this club is because I dont want
> to be governed by someone else,but times they are a
> changing and the greenies are becomming more and more
> influencial in closeing our lands.There are alot of
> people in this club who dont contribute to the cause
> because they dont know about it.I have a headache now
> from reading all of this nonproductive banter so I
> will stop. Lets all get together this weekend and
> discuss this by the campfire and find a solution.
> Jim (Crusher) Lambertus Baja Fleg
> <fleigle@h...> wrote:
> > Mike
> > The current AZVJC membership is at 1023. So to get
> > your AZVJC inc. plan
> > approved you would need to get 512 yes votes, right
> > now you have 13. If you
> > can 512 HONEST yes votes then even I would have to
> > agree it was the right
> > thing to do. You know that if press this much
> > farther your only going to
> > start a war among us then the only people you will
> > really be helping is the
> > Eco Nazis. Lets all stand back and give Mike his
> > week, he only needs 499
> > yes votes.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> __________________________________________________ _______________
> > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device:
> > http://mobile.msn.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion!
> http://greetings.yahoo.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44569 From: scramzilla <allvol@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:07pm
Subject: My final post......(please read)
I would like to thank all the people that took the time to respond to
the messages that I have posted over the last few days. I have
learned a lot and have made several new friends. Other than a
miss/cross post that I had with Stu and the two people that hate me
(and I hate them)<Not you Stu :-))) Every single post that I
received, (hundreds of them), were all positive for the most part and
that is amazing........ I am now going back to posting on my own
boards and let the chips fall where they may with regards to what all
of "you" decide to do with "your" Club. I was very much an outsider
here but many of you have made me feel welcomed and for that I am
grateful.
Happy Trails,
Clay Forrester
PS: My email is allvol@c... You can send me an email any time any
I will get back to you as soon as possible. I will be subscribed to
this message board the rest of the night but after that, I think that
I should move on.
Thanks again,
Zilla
44570 From: Scott Kruize <scottkruize@e...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:08pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs: Mike's response to DougB
Mike,
I think you got off on the wrong foot by introducing the "O" word. Many
people began loading their rounds and firing before war was declared ;)
This led to a civil war with no basis for it.
(This is only a brainstorm. Not necessarily my opinion or desire.) To
expand on your idea...How about having Jr and Sr members? Senior members
are dues paying members, Junior members are free to lurk and post on the
list, join any run they want as they currently do. There is only a
handful of real Pirate members though hundreds of people participate on
their list, etc.
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 5:30 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs: Mike's response to DougB
--- In az_vjc@y..., "DougB" <azjeep@c...> wrote:
> Mike...I realize you've given this some thought, and before I add too
> much to the fray, I'd like to know how it would be proposed to operate
> in terms of communication (maybe you've answered these things and I
> just haven't gotten to them yet). Would there be 2 separate lists? 2
> web sites? 2 trail lists, secret handshake :o) etc. Not sure I
> completely understand the function of the shadow AzJC...
Ok, here it goes. Actually I can understand the concern over this
issue, originally I was completely against it. After talking with
Sandee McCullen, however, I am only slightly against it (yea, you
read right, against it; just consider me the lawyer that is
representing a client whose cause he doesn't completely agree with?)
What changed my opinion was the fact that Sandee said we could
incorporate without having elections, meetings, etc.. But it does
require at least 3 "officers" and By Laws, but the officers don't
have to have any real duties, and the by laws only have to say that
we don't have any rules, elections, meetings etc...
What I've tried to arrange in the past is to let me create a webpage
where members could join ASA4WDC and pay via PayPal on their own.
However, Sandee mentioned that Individual memberships may be going
away. With this in mind, that means in order for an individual to
become a member of the ASA4WDC, he/she has to join a ASA4WDC Club.
Also, this does not take into account United or State Land Use (which
I still need to get myself one for this year).
What I really want to do is to provide a one stop shopping place for
Members of the AzVJC to get the ASA4WDC membership, the United
Membership and the State Land Use Permit. What I'd like is to receive
money via PayPal and send off the applications for the members, but I
don't believe this is possible, or at least not easily done. So, I
thought it might be easier to incorporate a "shadow" club (which in
essence is the AzVJC) and get the memberships via that club for the
AzVJC members that wanted to participate; the added bonus being that
it would be cheaper.
So to answer the question about splitting, or 2 websites, 2 lists the
answer is no. All this is, is an attempt to get more people to join
ASA4WDC and United and get their Land Use Permits. If the end result
is that we can do this without incorporation then I am 100% for it.
My intent by introducing this thread is to 1. get it talked about so
new members know more. 2. Get SOMETHING established to make things
easier for our members to get their ASA4WDC & United Memberships and
their State Land Use Permit.
Now that everyone has seen both sides of the debate, offer
suggestions on what you think is the best way to accomplish then end
goal which is to get as many members as the AzVJC as possible signed
up with ASA4WDC and United and get them their State Land Use permits.
- Mike
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44571 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:10pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs: Mike's response to DougB
Thanks Mike for the clarification/info. Also, I'd like to thank you for
trying to suggest an option. Certainly has generated a bit of discussion,
which is good and healthy. Also, a great big thanks for all the work you've
done on the web site. Really appreciated!
On the surface, the 'shadow' group you describe may not change the spirit or
function of the group, but I think there's concern that it could lead to
more onerous aspects of a real organization. But, as you indicated
previously, this could be dealt with by very tight by-laws not allowing the
thing to get beyond a mechanism for "official" participation and recognition
by ASA.
A couple of alternative suggestions/ideas:
- Generate an automatic message that goes out to new members who subscribe
to the club to point out some of the basics behind AzVJC (founding concept,
Tread Lightly, no spam, etc.), and at the same time encourage individual
participation in ASA and United, with links to both. Not mess with pay pal,
but leave that up to individuals. I'd be happy to draft a sample we could
discuss on line.
- Put links on the web sites to ASA and United, and possibly other info
sources like the Blue Ribbon Coalition. Again...leave contributions up to
individuals.
- Generate regular membership drives on the list to encourage
participation/dues in these orgs. (I'd be happy to do this)
- Info on permits w/ links to BLM and State Trust (if such permit links
exist).
Just some thoughts...and thanks again for all your efforts.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "az_jeeper_mike" <azvjc@a...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 5:29 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs: Mike's response to DougB
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "DougB" <azjeep@c...> wrote:
> > Mike...I realize you've given this some thought, and before I add
> > too much to the fray, I'd like to know how it would be proposed to
> > operate in terms of communication (maybe you've answered these
> > things and I just haven't gotten to them yet). Would there be 2
> > separate lists? 2 web sites? 2 trail lists, secret handshake :o)
> > etc. Not sure I completely understand the function of the shadow
> > AzJC...
>
> Ok, here it goes. Actually I can understand the concern over this
> issue, originally I was completely against it. After talking with
> Sandee McCullen, however, I am only slightly against it (yea, you
> read right, against it; just consider me the lawyer that is
> representing a client whose cause he doesn't completely agree with?)
> What changed my opinion was the fact that Sandee said we could
> incorporate without having elections, meetings, etc.. But it does
> require at least 3 "officers" and By Laws, but the officers don't
> have to have any real duties, and the by laws only have to say that
> we don't have any rules, elections, meetings etc...
>
> What I've tried to arrange in the past is to let me create a webpage
> where members could join ASA4WDC and pay via PayPal on their own.
> However, Sandee mentioned that Individual memberships may be going
> away. With this in mind, that means in order for an individual to
> become a member of the ASA4WDC, he/she has to join a ASA4WDC Club.
> Also, this does not take into account United or State Land Use (which
> I still need to get myself one for this year).
>
> What I really want to do is to provide a one stop shopping place for
> Members of the AzVJC to get the ASA4WDC membership, the United
> Membership and the State Land Use Permit. What I'd like is to receive
> money via PayPal and send off the applications for the members, but I
> don't believe this is possible, or at least not easily done. So, I
> thought it might be easier to incorporate a "shadow" club (which in
> essence is the AzVJC) and get the memberships via that club for the
> AzVJC members that wanted to participate; the added bonus being that
> it would be cheaper.
>
> So to answer the question about splitting, or 2 websites, 2 lists the
> answer is no. All this is, is an attempt to get more people to join
> ASA4WDC and United and get their Land Use Permits. If the end result
> is that we can do this without incorporation then I am 100% for it.
>
> My intent by introducing this thread is to 1. get it talked about so
> new members know more. 2. Get SOMETHING established to make things
> easier for our members to get their ASA4WDC & United Memberships and
> their State Land Use Permit.
>
> Now that everyone has seen both sides of the debate, offer
> suggestions on what you think is the best way to accomplish then end
> goal which is to get as many members as the AzVJC as possible signed
> up with ASA4WDC and United and get them their State Land Use permits.
>
> - Mike
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44572 From: Brian Hill <brian@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:19pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Which one flies?
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Kruize [mailto:scottkruize@e...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:46 PM
To: 'Eric Marble'; 'Brian Hill'; arizonajeep@c...;
az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; 'Chris Krieg'
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
<< File: cessna.JPG >> YEP!
-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Marble [mailto:emarble3@p...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:23 PM
To: Brian Hill; arizonajeep@c...; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; Chris Krieg
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Rumor has it Joe's going to take his reading program to the skies to
reach more chillens.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
To: "Eric Marble" <EMarble3@p...>; "Brian Hill"
<brian@a...>; <arizonajeep@c...>;
<az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> LMAO!!
>
> Chris
>
> > From: "Eric Marble" <EMarble3@p...>
> > Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:08:20 -0700
> > To: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>, <arizonajeep@c...>,
> > <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>, "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> > If it wasn't for Joes Jeep how would the little ones learn to read?
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
> > To: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>; <arizonajeep@c...>;
> > <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:46 PM
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> >> OK, that is way beyond what is called for!
> >> Do you know Joe and how many people he has helped? If not, Shut the
hell
> > up!
> >> Joe has contibuted more to this group than a large majority of the
> > members.
> >> He will drop what he is doing to help a fellow Jeeper. The fact
> >> that
you
> >> don't know this shows your ignorance.
> >> Losing Joe would be a major asset loss for this group. If you don't
know
> >> that, you have a long way to go.
> >>
> >> Chris
> >>
> >>> From: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>
> >>> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:35:53 -0700
> >>> To: arizonajeep@c..., "'Chatfield, Mike'"
> >>> <Mike@A...>, az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> >>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>>
> >>> Promise?
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> >>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:09 PM
> >>> To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> >>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>>
> >>> Mike,
> >>>
> >>> I'm not talking legal anything... I'm against ANYONE who chooses
> >>> to
> > divide
> >>> (shadow... whatever word you choose to use) the Arizona Virtual
> >>> Jeep
> > Club.
> >>> Unless you get a simple majority (1 vote greater than half the
> >>> current membership count) voting for this shadow club... I will
> >>> believe that
it
> > was
> >>> the wrong thing to do. If you do manage to get a simple majority
> >>> for
> > this
> >>> new "real" club, I will believe that it was the right thing for
> >>> the
club
> > to
> >>> do... but the wrong thing for me... at which point I will silently
> >>> go
> > away.
> >>>
> >>> I'm against it Mike, because I am all too familiar with the
divisiveness
> > of
> >>> "real" groups... Although you have put a great deal of time into
> >>> our
> > club
> >>> webpage, it does not authorize you to take our name and give it to
> > another
> >>> group. Even the original six members voting for it cannot
> >>> authorize
> > this
> >>> change... there must be a majority vote for this to be a fair and
honest
> >>> change.
> >>>
> >>> The spirit of this club will change Mike... and there is nothing
> >>> you,
or
> >>> anyone else, will be able to do to stop it. We don't need rules,
> >>> or
> > bylaws,
> >>> or a board of directors and incorporation... You are pressing for
> > change
> >>> which will ultimately redefine our group and I don't want this to
> > happen.
> >>>
> >>> Joe
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> >>>> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> >>>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
> >>>> entity) has legal
> >>>> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it, the
> >>>> AzVJC never incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore
> >>>> it can't own anything
> >>>> (including the copyrighted webpages).
> >>>>
> >>>> Just something to think about.
> >>>>
> >>>> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want to
> >>>> be a part of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to
> >>>> change unless YOU make
> >>>> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
> >>>>
> >>>> - Mike
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> >>>> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> >>>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a
> >>>> good idea for those who need it... do not however, try to relate
> >>>> it to the
AZVJC....
> >>>> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
> >>>> everyone's authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The
> >>>> new club must be separate, and must not be liked to our current
> >>>> website any more than any
> >>>> other club currently is.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44573 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:12pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
Just so you know...I got this note too...LOL - Not sure if it went to the
entire list or just me...
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Kruize" <scottkruize@e...>
To: "'az_jeeper_mike'" <azvjc@a...>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:45 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> Mike,
>
> I sent this privately. I'm keeping my public opinion quiet until others
> have had a chance to speak. I don't want to turn the list into a buly
> pulpit as JW has.
>
> I want you to know that I really like your idea. It's a shame that so
> few really see it as the easiest way to get the benefits of being
> organized without the usual pains of an organized club.
>
> Once again I appreciate the effort!
>
> Scott Kruize
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:06 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > the reason I'm against this is because anytime you make rules,
>
> No rules.. that is what are by-laws are going to say "There Are No
> Rules." (well actually just the ones that ALREADY EXIST and are
> POSTED ON THE WEBSITE)
>
>
> > put people in positions of authority over other people... or a group
> > of people, things change.
>
> Hmmm, things change, eh? I've been the webmaster for what almost 2
> years? And the group moderator for about a year? What things have
> you seen change other than added features (OPTIONS) to the website?
> Could I be abusive with my powers? You bet I could, but I am not. I
> have not once removed a member from either the list or the website
> without THEM asking me to do so. So you see someone already is
> in "position of authority" as you put it.
>
> Once again let me reiterate, this is about an OPTION pure and simple.
> If you think that by not voluntarily paying dues, that this means
> that you're not part of the AzVJC then by the same token if you're
> not using every single feature of the AzVJC website you're not part
> of the AzVJC. And I have yet to see your Rig in the Whoops section. ;)
>
> - Mike
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44574 From: Brian Hill <brian@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:26pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Me too
-----Original Message-----
From: DougB [mailto:azjeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:13 PM
To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; Scott Kruize
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Just so you know...I got this note too...LOL - Not sure if it went to the
entire list or just me...
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Kruize" <scottkruize@e...>
To: "'az_jeeper_mike'" <azvjc@a...>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:45 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> Mike,
>
> I sent this privately. I'm keeping my public opinion quiet until others
> have had a chance to speak. I don't want to turn the list into a buly
> pulpit as JW has.
>
> I want you to know that I really like your idea. It's a shame that so
> few really see it as the easiest way to get the benefits of being
> organized without the usual pains of an organized club.
>
> Once again I appreciate the effort!
>
> Scott Kruize
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:06 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > the reason I'm against this is because anytime you make rules,
>
> No rules.. that is what are by-laws are going to say "There Are No
> Rules." (well actually just the ones that ALREADY EXIST and are
> POSTED ON THE WEBSITE)
>
>
> > put people in positions of authority over other people... or a group
> > of people, things change.
>
> Hmmm, things change, eh? I've been the webmaster for what almost 2
> years? And the group moderator for about a year? What things have
> you seen change other than added features (OPTIONS) to the website?
> Could I be abusive with my powers? You bet I could, but I am not. I
> have not once removed a member from either the list or the website
> without THEM asking me to do so. So you see someone already is
> in "position of authority" as you put it.
>
> Once again let me reiterate, this is about an OPTION pure and simple.
> If you think that by not voluntarily paying dues, that this means
> that you're not part of the AzVJC then by the same token if you're
> not using every single feature of the AzVJC website you're not part
> of the AzVJC. And I have yet to see your Rig in the Whoops section. ;)
>
> - Mike
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44575 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:22pm
Subject: RE: Re: Random Input
It is better as individual memberships, IMO. Agencies count beans....the
more beans, the more it means towards something. Far too easy for a greenie
group to print something like "Only 187 land use permits were issued in
2001". When in reality, that might very well have covered 1292 off-road
vehicles. (just making up numbers here)
Timber Chucker!
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
-----Original Message-----
From: jetowle2000 [mailto:James.Towle@a...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:57 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Random Input
Is that an "Amen" to keep you out of the "muddled water"? Or
an "Amen" for individual membership is better than group?
Or maybe both :) .
--James
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...> wrote:
> Amen!
>
> Stu Olson
> www.stu-offroad.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jetowle2000 [mailto:James.Towle@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:49 PM
> To: az_vjc@y...
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Random Input
>
>
>
> I thought it was better in some ways.
> I thought as a group you only needed to have one permit. Thus, in
the
> government's eye, showing that there is only, let's say 10 groups
as
> aposed to 200 people. When they count they count only the permits
> assigned, not the people using those permits. This gives them an
> unsually low count on how many people are actually using land.
>
> I thought Stu had brought this up once, not to drag Stu into this
> muddled water.
>
> --James
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Clay Forrester" <allvol@c...> wrote:
> > "contributing directly to ASA4WD or the BRC as an INDIVIDUAL the
> same, or
> > even better, than paying club dues" Yes, this is a GREAT way to
> help keep
> > the trails open. Sorry for the late response....just got home
from
> work.
> >
> >
> > Clay Forrester
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <tandljacobson@a...>
> > To: <az_vjc@y...>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:07 AM
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Random Input
> >
> >
> > > Message: 19
> > > Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:59:40 -0700
> > > From: "Clay Forrester" <allvol@c...>
> > > Subject: Re: Thanks (more)........
> > >
> > > "...They will ALL be shut
> > > down and the land closed off.
> > >
> > >
> > > Zilla
> > >
> > > Except for those secret new trails that you need a small, uhh,
> errr, unit
> > to run! Only kidding!!! <bob, weave, duck incoming flames!>
> > >
> > > Regarding the other post about club membership...I tend to
agree
> with the
> > folks who do not prefer to belong to additional, organized
clubs.
> I know
> > people who both do and don't, but I'm not interested. But a
> question, isn't
> > contributing directly to ASA4WD or the BRC as an INDIVIDUAL the
> same, or
> > even better, than paying club dues, of which only a portion go to
> land
> > access groups?
> > >
> > > And a quick jab to Stu - if you start going by "Timber
Chucker",
> you're
> > gonna have to disregard all your own advice since it's coming
from
> a "screen
> > name"! ;-)
> > >
> > > Finally...is anyone thinking about a rock-unstacking run for an
> FJ trail
> > yet? Upper WP? Ajax? Might try to get in on the Terminator
> cleanup, but
> > have never run it...minimum Jeep requirements?
> > >
> > > TJ (errr, Tom Jacobson)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44576 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:19pm
Subject: Re: My final post......(please read)
Don't feel you have to leave. The info you posted can help people and that's
a good thing.
You are welcome here
Chris K
> From: "scramzilla" <allvol@c...>
> Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 04:07:37 -0000
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] My final post......(please read)
>
> I would like to thank all the people that took the time to respond to
> the messages that I have posted over the last few days. I have
> learned a lot and have made several new friends. Other than a
> miss/cross post that I had with Stu and the two people that hate me
> (and I hate them)<Not you Stu :-))) Every single post that I
> received, (hundreds of them), were all positive for the most part and
> that is amazing........ I am now going back to posting on my own
> boards and let the chips fall where they may with regards to what all
> of "you" decide to do with "your" Club. I was very much an outsider
> here but many of you have made me feel welcomed and for that I am
> grateful.
>
> Happy Trails,
>
> Clay Forrester
>
> PS: My email is allvol@c... You can send me an email any time any
> I will get back to you as soon as possible. I will be subscribed to
> this message board the rest of the night but after that, I think that
> I should move on.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Zilla
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44577 From: Mark Mesalam <m_mesalam@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:20pm
Subject: FW: Re: Organized Clubs
Went to the entire list, 'cause I got it too....and this one...so much for
private message...
-----Original Message-----
From: DougB [mailto:azjeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:13 PM
To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; Scott Kruize
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Just so you know...I got this note too...LOL - Not sure if it went to the
entire list or just me...
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Kruize" <scottkruize@e...>
To: "'az_jeeper_mike'" <azvjc@a...>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:45 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> Mike,
>
> I sent this privately. I'm keeping my public opinion quiet until others
> have had a chance to speak. I don't want to turn the list into a buly
> pulpit as JW has.
>
> I want you to know that I really like your idea. It's a shame that so
> few really see it as the easiest way to get the benefits of being
> organized without the usual pains of an organized club.
>
> Once again I appreciate the effort!
>
> Scott Kruize
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:06 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > the reason I'm against this is because anytime you make rules,
>
> No rules.. that is what are by-laws are going to say "There Are No
> Rules." (well actually just the ones that ALREADY EXIST and are
> POSTED ON THE WEBSITE)
>
>
> > put people in positions of authority over other people... or a group
> > of people, things change.
>
> Hmmm, things change, eh? I've been the webmaster for what almost 2
> years? And the group moderator for about a year? What things have
> you seen change other than added features (OPTIONS) to the website?
> Could I be abusive with my powers? You bet I could, but I am not. I
> have not once removed a member from either the list or the website
> without THEM asking me to do so. So you see someone already is
> in "position of authority" as you put it.
>
> Once again let me reiterate, this is about an OPTION pure and simple.
> If you think that by not voluntarily paying dues, that this means
> that you're not part of the AzVJC then by the same token if you're
> not using every single feature of the AzVJC website you're not part
> of the AzVJC. And I have yet to see your Rig in the Whoops section. ;)
>
> - Mike
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44578 From: Neal Han**** <azredrocker@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:21pm
Subject: RE: Organize, NOT!!
Okay you all, there is no way that this group will ever agree on to incorp. or not to incorp. No matter what you all will need to obtain State Trust Land permits. Barry at FourWheelers, 602-273-7195 or Sandee McCullen sells them. Hope to meet some of you this weekend in FJ and put a face with a name.
Neal Han****, Maverick Offroad's Red 74 CJ 5,
Scott Kruize wrote:
Michael,
I can think of several members that have registered on the list several
times due to problems with their email account. Wouldn't it be funny if
all of us had done this a couple of times? How about 512 members, 256
votes?
This is not an accurate way to count unless you are the FLVJC. (Florida
Virtual Jeep Club;)
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: Baja Fleg [mailto:fleigle@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 5:17 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Organize, NOT!!
Mike
The current AZVJC membership is at 1023. So to get your AZVJC inc. plan
approved you would need to get 512 yes votes, right now you have 13. If
you
can 512 HONEST yes votes then even I would have to agree it was the
right
thing to do. You know that if press this much farther your only going
to
start a war among us then the only people you will really be helping is
the
Eco Nazis. Lets all stand back and give Mike his week, he only needs
499
yes votes.
Michael
__________________________________________________ _______________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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44579 From: Scott Kruize <scottkruize@e...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:21pm
Subject: RE: My final post......(please read)
I hope you continue to lurk and post. It doesn't hurt to shake up the
group a little.
Later,
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: scramzilla [mailto:allvol@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:08 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] My final post......(please read)
I would like to thank all the people that took the time to respond to
the messages that I have posted over the last few days. I have
learned a lot and have made several new friends. Other than a
miss/cross post that I had with Stu and the two people that hate me
(and I hate them)<Not you Stu :-))) Every single post that I
received, (hundreds of them), were all positive for the most part and
that is amazing........ I am now going back to posting on my own
boards and let the chips fall where they may with regards to what all
of "you" decide to do with "your" Club. I was very much an outsider
here but many of you have made me feel welcomed and for that I am
grateful.
Happy Trails,
Clay Forrester
PS: My email is allvol@c... You can send me an email any time any
I will get back to you as soon as possible. I will be subscribed to
this message board the rest of the night but after that, I think that
I should move on.
Thanks again,
Zilla
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44580 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:25pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs: Mike's response to DougB
Its the star-bellied Sneetches thing again.
Chris K
> From: "Scott Kruize" <scottkruize@e...>
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs: Mike's response to DougB
>
> ...How about having Jr and Sr members? Senior members
> are dues paying members, Junior members are free to lurk and post on the
> list, join any run they want as they currently do. There is only a
> handful of real Pirate members though hundreds of people participate on
> their list, etc.
>
> Scott K
>
44581 From: dthorton_2000 <dt_horton@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:28pm
Subject: Re: AzVJC Mailing List Stats
FWIW,
I read & post through the Yahoo Groups site (the new pop-up
ads suck!). I prefer to pick & choose which topics to view. More
like a BBS, less to weed through.
Dan
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...> wrote:
> I just exported the list into Excel to do some calculations
because I was
> curious.
>
> Of the 1022 supposed members of the Group List, there are
currently only 897
> (I'm guessing that Yahoo Groups still counts those that have
dropped the
> list?)
>
> So with that in mind:
>
> Dropped from the List: 125
> Elected to Receive NO E-Mail: 527
> Elected to Receive Daily Digests: 111
> Elected to Receive Individual E-Mails: 259
>
> But I wonder how many of the "No E-Mail" actually come and
read messages on
> the web.
>
> - Mike
44582 From: Scott Kruize <scottkruize@e...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:28pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Oh well.. The cat is out of the bag. I sent it to Az_Jeeper_Mike which
is azvjc@a... and somehow it got rerouted to the AZVJC.
Anyway I guess I will state that I am all for membership in the ASA4WDC
and getting a State Land trust Permit and commend Mike in his efforts to
encourage the members to do so. His heart was in the right place but
somehow he got misunderstood. I am not in favor of formally organizing
the group. But I'd like to see more of you get these these memberships
and permits. If Mike can do something to help us achieve that goal by
creating a link then go for it. If for whatever reason there is a need
to incorporate to achieve the goal of registering said people because of
the problem of collecting signatures on the website than so be it. Its
not the end of the world folks!
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@a...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:27 PM
To: DougB; 'az_jeeper_mike'; Scott Kruize
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Me too
-----Original Message-----
From: DougB [mailto:azjeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:13 PM
To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; Scott Kruize
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Just so you know...I got this note too...LOL - Not sure if it went to
the entire list or just me...
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Kruize" <scottkruize@e...>
To: "'az_jeeper_mike'" <azvjc@a...>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:45 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> Mike,
>
> I sent this privately. I'm keeping my public opinion quiet until
> others have had a chance to speak. I don't want to turn the list into
> a buly pulpit as JW has.
>
> I want you to know that I really like your idea. It's a shame that so
> few really see it as the easiest way to get the benefits of being
> organized without the usual pains of an organized club.
>
> Once again I appreciate the effort!
>
> Scott Kruize
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:06 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > the reason I'm against this is because anytime you make rules,
>
> No rules.. that is what are by-laws are going to say "There Are No
> Rules." (well actually just the ones that ALREADY EXIST and are POSTED
> ON THE WEBSITE)
>
>
> > put people in positions of authority over other people... or a group
> > of people, things change.
>
> Hmmm, things change, eh? I've been the webmaster for what almost 2
> years? And the group moderator for about a year? What things have you
> seen change other than added features (OPTIONS) to the website? Could
> I be abusive with my powers? You bet I could, but I am not. I have not
> once removed a member from either the list or the website without THEM
> asking me to do so. So you see someone already is in "position of
> authority" as you put it.
>
> Once again let me reiterate, this is about an OPTION pure and simple.
> If you think that by not voluntarily paying dues, that this means that
> you're not part of the AzVJC then by the same token if you're not
> using every single feature of the AzVJC website you're not part of the
> AzVJC. And I have yet to see your Rig in the Whoops section. ;)
>
> - Mike
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44583 From: Clay Forrester <allvol@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:27pm
Subject: Re: My final post......(please read)
No no....No one has made me feel like I should leave.....I just think I'm
too bias in my stanch opinion that everyone should be involved in some way
or another (most of you are)........ and especially the $25.00 a year to
ASA. I think if I keep posting here and sticking my nose back in this issue,
it could do more harm that good.......and I just could not help myself. :-)
Clay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
To: "scramzilla" <allvol@c...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:19 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] My final post......(please read)
> Don't feel you have to leave. The info you posted can help people and
that's
> a good thing.
>
> You are welcome here
>
> Chris K
>
> > From: "scramzilla" <allvol@c...>
> > Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 04:07:37 -0000
> > To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [az_vjc] My final post......(please read)
> >
> > I would like to thank all the people that took the time to respond to
> > the messages that I have posted over the last few days. I have
> > learned a lot and have made several new friends. Other than a
> > miss/cross post that I had with Stu and the two people that hate me
> > (and I hate them)<Not you Stu :-))) Every single post that I
> > received, (hundreds of them), were all positive for the most part and
> > that is amazing........ I am now going back to posting on my own
> > boards and let the chips fall where they may with regards to what all
> > of "you" decide to do with "your" Club. I was very much an outsider
> > here but many of you have made me feel welcomed and for that I am
> > grateful.
> >
> > Happy Trails,
> >
> > Clay Forrester
> >
> > PS: My email is allvol@c... You can send me an email any time any
> > I will get back to you as soon as possible. I will be subscribed to
> > this message board the rest of the night but after that, I think that
> > I should move on.
> >
> > Thanks again,
> >
> > Zilla
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
44584 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:30pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs: Mike's response to DougB
...and we can give the junior members AzVJC lollipops :o)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Kruize" <scottkruize@e...>
To: "'az_jeeper_mike'" <azvjc@a...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:08 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs: Mike's response to DougB
> Mike,
>
> I think you got off on the wrong foot by introducing the "O" word. Many
> people began loading their rounds and firing before war was declared ;)
> This led to a civil war with no basis for it.
>
> (This is only a brainstorm. Not necessarily my opinion or desire.) To
> expand on your idea...How about having Jr and Sr members? Senior members
> are dues paying members, Junior members are free to lurk and post on the
> list, join any run they want as they currently do. There is only a
> handful of real Pirate members though hundreds of people participate on
> their list, etc.
>
> Scott K
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 5:30 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs: Mike's response to DougB
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "DougB" <azjeep@c...> wrote:
> > Mike...I realize you've given this some thought, and before I add too
> > much to the fray, I'd like to know how it would be proposed to operate
>
> > in terms of communication (maybe you've answered these things and I
> > just haven't gotten to them yet). Would there be 2 separate lists? 2
> > web sites? 2 trail lists, secret handshake :o) etc. Not sure I
> > completely understand the function of the shadow AzJC...
>
> Ok, here it goes. Actually I can understand the concern over this
> issue, originally I was completely against it. After talking with
> Sandee McCullen, however, I am only slightly against it (yea, you
> read right, against it; just consider me the lawyer that is
> representing a client whose cause he doesn't completely agree with?)
> What changed my opinion was the fact that Sandee said we could
> incorporate without having elections, meetings, etc.. But it does
> require at least 3 "officers" and By Laws, but the officers don't
> have to have any real duties, and the by laws only have to say that
> we don't have any rules, elections, meetings etc...
>
> What I've tried to arrange in the past is to let me create a webpage
> where members could join ASA4WDC and pay via PayPal on their own.
> However, Sandee mentioned that Individual memberships may be going
> away. With this in mind, that means in order for an individual to
> become a member of the ASA4WDC, he/she has to join a ASA4WDC Club.
> Also, this does not take into account United or State Land Use (which
> I still need to get myself one for this year).
>
> What I really want to do is to provide a one stop shopping place for
> Members of the AzVJC to get the ASA4WDC membership, the United
> Membership and the State Land Use Permit. What I'd like is to receive
> money via PayPal and send off the applications for the members, but I
> don't believe this is possible, or at least not easily done. So, I
> thought it might be easier to incorporate a "shadow" club (which in
> essence is the AzVJC) and get the memberships via that club for the
> AzVJC members that wanted to participate; the added bonus being that
> it would be cheaper.
>
> So to answer the question about splitting, or 2 websites, 2 lists the
> answer is no. All this is, is an attempt to get more people to join
> ASA4WDC and United and get their Land Use Permits. If the end result
> is that we can do this without incorporation then I am 100% for it.
>
> My intent by introducing this thread is to 1. get it talked about so
> new members know more. 2. Get SOMETHING established to make things
> easier for our members to get their ASA4WDC & United Memberships and
> their State Land Use Permit.
>
> Now that everyone has seen both sides of the debate, offer
> suggestions on what you think is the best way to accomplish then end
> goal which is to get as many members as the AzVJC as possible signed
> up with ASA4WDC and United and get them their State Land Use permits.
>
> - Mike
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44585 From: Clay Forrester <allvol@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:29pm
Subject: Re: My final post......(please read)
That could be very dangerous for me. :-)) I can't keep my mouth shut.
Clay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Kruize" <scottkruize@e...>
To: "'scramzilla'" <allvol@c...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:21 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] My final post......(please read)
> I hope you continue to lurk and post. It doesn't hurt to shake up the
> group a little.
>
> Later,
>
> Scott K
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: scramzilla [mailto:allvol@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:08 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] My final post......(please read)
>
>
> I would like to thank all the people that took the time to respond to
> the messages that I have posted over the last few days. I have
> learned a lot and have made several new friends. Other than a
> miss/cross post that I had with Stu and the two people that hate me
> (and I hate them)<Not you Stu :-))) Every single post that I
> received, (hundreds of them), were all positive for the most part and
> that is amazing........ I am now going back to posting on my own
> boards and let the chips fall where they may with regards to what all
> of "you" decide to do with "your" Club. I was very much an outsider
> here but many of you have made me feel welcomed and for that I am
> grateful.
>
> Happy Trails,
>
> Clay Forrester
>
> PS: My email is allvol@c... You can send me an email any time any
> I will get back to you as soon as possible. I will be subscribed to
> this message board the rest of the night but after that, I think that
> I should move on.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Zilla
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44586 From: Scott Kruize <scottkruize@e...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:30pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Oh yeah, I'm sure my friend JW will inderstand the bully comment. If he
doesn't yet realize it, he's a pitbull at heart!
Do we need to vote on that?
LOL
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Kruize [mailto:scottkruize@e...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:29 PM
To: 'Brian Hill'; 'DougB'; 'az_jeeper_mike'
Cc: AZ_VJC
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Oh well.. The cat is out of the bag. I sent it to Az_Jeeper_Mike which
is azvjc@a... and somehow it got rerouted to the AZVJC.
Anyway I guess I will state that I am all for membership in the ASA4WDC
and getting a State Land trust Permit and commend Mike in his efforts to
encourage the members to do so. His heart was in the right place but
somehow he got misunderstood. I am not in favor of formally organizing
the group. But I'd like to see more of you get these these memberships
and permits. If Mike can do something to help us achieve that goal by
creating a link then go for it. If for whatever reason there is a need
to incorporate to achieve the goal of registering said people because of
the problem of collecting signatures on the website than so be it. Its
not the end of the world folks!
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@a...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:27 PM
To: DougB; 'az_jeeper_mike'; Scott Kruize
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Me too
-----Original Message-----
From: DougB [mailto:azjeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:13 PM
To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; Scott Kruize
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Just so you know...I got this note too...LOL - Not sure if it went to
the entire list or just me...
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Kruize" <scottkruize@e...>
To: "'az_jeeper_mike'" <azvjc@a...>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:45 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> Mike,
>
> I sent this privately. I'm keeping my public opinion quiet until
> others have had a chance to speak. I don't want to turn the list into
> a buly pulpit as JW has.
>
> I want you to know that I really like your idea. It's a shame that so
> few really see it as the easiest way to get the benefits of being
> organized without the usual pains of an organized club.
>
> Once again I appreciate the effort!
>
> Scott Kruize
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:06 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > the reason I'm against this is because anytime you make rules,
>
> No rules.. that is what are by-laws are going to say "There Are No
> Rules." (well actually just the ones that ALREADY EXIST and are POSTED
> ON THE WEBSITE)
>
>
> > put people in positions of authority over other people... or a group
> > of people, things change.
>
> Hmmm, things change, eh? I've been the webmaster for what almost 2
> years? And the group moderator for about a year? What things have you
> seen change other than added features (OPTIONS) to the website? Could
> I be abusive with my powers? You bet I could, but I am not. I have not
> once removed a member from either the list or the website without THEM
> asking me to do so. So you see someone already is in "position of
> authority" as you put it.
>
> Once again let me reiterate, this is about an OPTION pure and simple.
> If you think that by not voluntarily paying dues, that this means that
> you're not part of the AzVJC then by the same token if you're not
> using every single feature of the AzVJC website you're not part of the
> AzVJC. And I have yet to see your Rig in the Whoops section. ;)
>
> - Mike
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/