Yahoo Messages: 44536-44561

[blooddrive]

44536-44561

44536 From: Mark Mesalam <m_mesalam@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:45pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs: Mike's response to DougB


Mike you posted> What I'd like is to receive
money via PayPal and send off the applications for the members, but I
don't believe this is possible, or at least not easily done.


I think the land permit is possible, and maybe quite easy. Tammy Pike set
up 4 Wheel Supply (in Phoenix) just for this kind of situation. I don't
know if she would want to get tons of e-mail, but she seems to be very
interested in helping with the permits. Here is her e-mail address, pls
keep this off the website, but you might want to talk to her.

tpike@l...

Mark


-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 5:30 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs: Mike's response to DougB

--- In az_vjc@y..., "DougB" <azjeep@c...> wrote:
> Mike...I realize you've given this some thought, and before I add
> too much to the fray, I'd like to know how it would be proposed to
> operate in terms of communication (maybe you've answered these
> things and I just haven't gotten to them yet). Would there be 2
> separate lists? 2 web sites? 2 trail lists, secret handshake :o)
> etc. Not sure I completely understand the function of the shadow
> AzJC...

Ok, here it goes. Actually I can understand the concern over this
issue, originally I was completely against it. After talking with
Sandee McCullen, however, I am only slightly against it (yea, you
read right, against it; just consider me the lawyer that is
representing a client whose cause he doesn't completely agree with?)
What changed my opinion was the fact that Sandee said we could
incorporate without having elections, meetings, etc.. But it does
require at least 3 "officers" and By Laws, but the officers don't
have to have any real duties, and the by laws only have to say that
we don't have any rules, elections, meetings etc...

What I've tried to arrange in the past is to let me create a webpage
where members could join ASA4WDC and pay via PayPal on their own.
However, Sandee mentioned that Individual memberships may be going
away. With this in mind, that means in order for an individual to
become a member of the ASA4WDC, he/she has to join a ASA4WDC Club.
Also, this does not take into account United or State Land Use (which
I still need to get myself one for this year).

What I really want to do is to provide a one stop shopping place for
Members of the AzVJC to get the ASA4WDC membership, the United
Membership and the State Land Use Permit. What I'd like is to receive
money via PayPal and send off the applications for the members, but I
don't believe this is possible, or at least not easily done. So, I
thought it might be easier to incorporate a "shadow" club (which in
essence is the AzVJC) and get the memberships via that club for the
AzVJC members that wanted to participate; the added bonus being that
it would be cheaper.

So to answer the question about splitting, or 2 websites, 2 lists the
answer is no. All this is, is an attempt to get more people to join
ASA4WDC and United and get their Land Use Permits. If the end result
is that we can do this without incorporation then I am 100% for it.

My intent by introducing this thread is to 1. get it talked about so
new members know more. 2. Get SOMETHING established to make things
easier for our members to get their ASA4WDC & United Memberships and
their State Land Use Permit.

Now that everyone has seen both sides of the debate, offer
suggestions on what you think is the best way to accomplish then end
goal which is to get as many members as the AzVJC as possible signed
up with ASA4WDC and United and get them their State Land Use permits.

- Mike




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



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44537 From: Chris benner <offroadfun@t...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:47pm
Subject: organized clubs


wow, I've read a lot of posts. Seems like everyone is just bickering back and forth about everything. Bottom line though.. What does a club fee do for us? Will you turn off the annoying yahoo ads? Will there be a newsletter snail mailed to my mailbox? or do I just get bragging rights that I helped pay the websites monthly bills? You know there another group that forever remains unorganized that's self supporting through its own contributions.(AA) Why not list what our running costs are and then divide that number by the ammount of members and ask for contributions. I'd be happy to help out and I'm sure the active members would be more then willing to help out. We don't need a shadow group with the same name and members who can say "I paid to be here". We don't need organization either. IMO, let people donate money for the general upkeep and not require them to pay "fee". If you want bragging rights, then put a field by our names that says "donating member". If not everyone donates then at least we've cut someone's upkeep costs a little bit. Hell if the whole membership sent in a dollar, I'd think that would be plenty. If you wanna get fancy, ask for $10 a head and then mail them two stickers.

just my thoughts,
Chris


44538 From: Fred <fredtj@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:54pm
Subject: Re: State Land Use Permit


Ok, I'm blind. Where does it state that there is a limited number of club
functions as month ?? I don't see it.. We just went all other this Tuesday
night during our local (Tucson -> Tucson Rough Riders) and there is nothing
limiting the amount of club functions per month or year or anything.

Cheers,
Fred

----- Original Message -----
From: "azrckcrawler" <chris@a...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 5:51 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] State Land Use Permit


> There seems to be some confusion about the club permit. For those
> who would like to educate themselves go here:
> http://asa4wdc.org/wd/ . You will see the group permit only covers a
> limited number of club functions a month, which is fine IMO. If you
> four wheel every weekend (like I do) you really need to pick up a
> family permit for your own personal use. A lot of this trail
> mapping stuff came up due to people abusing the club permits (from
> what I heard), so the club I am in voted to buy each member family a
> family permit so we don't have to worry about all the stipulations on
> the club permit. Personally I think if the state is having such a
> problem with people abusing the permits maybe they should just stop
> the club program and ask everyone to buy a family permit. At $20 a
> year that is not an outrageous thing to ask. In return I would hope
> they would step up enforcement, this would make both camps happy. All
> club member and responsible offroaders have a permit and the state
> starts cracking down on all the yahoos out there drinking, littering
> and tearing up the trails.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


44539 From: Clint Ramsey <cwramsey@t...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:25pm
Subject: RE: A free Ride... was something about organization...


You're asking for volunteers to let you practice with them in the
plane??

-----Original Message-----
From:
sentto-1011514-37323-1014940236-cwramsey=theriver.com@r...
oo.com
[mailto:sentto-1011514-37323-1014940236-cwramsey=theriver.com@r...
oups.yahoo.com] On Behalf Of Joe W
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:51 PM
To: 'Eric Marble'; 'Brian Hill'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; 'Chris Krieg'
Subject: [az_vjc] A free Ride... was something about organization...

Speaking of the skys...

If anyone is interested in taking a plane ride, let me know. I have
lots of
practicing to do, and I'd just as soon take someone with me as not.
Shoot
me an email if you'd like to take a flight over FJ or the lakes or your
house (assuming it isn't in class B airspace <grin>).

No charge... just fun. I have parachutes if you get scared.
<evil grin>

Joe

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eric Marble [mailto:emarble3@p...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:23 PM
> To: Brian Hill; arizonajeep@c...; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com;
> Chris Krieg
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Rumor has it Joe's going to take his reading program to the
> skies to reach
> more chillens.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
> To: "Eric Marble" <EMarble3@p...>; "Brian Hill"
> <brian@a...>; <arizonajeep@c...>;
> <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> > LMAO!!
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > > From: "Eric Marble" <EMarble3@p...>
> > > Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:08:20 -0700
> > > To: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>, <arizonajeep@c...>,
> > > <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>, "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
> > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >
> > > If it wasn't for Joes Jeep how would the little ones
> learn to read?
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
> > > To: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>; <arizonajeep@c...>;
> > > <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:46 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >
> > >
> > >> OK, that is way beyond what is called for!
> > >> Do you know Joe and how many people he has helped? If
> not, Shut the
> hell
> > > up!
> > >> Joe has contibuted more to this group than a large
> majority of the
> > > members.
> > >> He will drop what he is doing to help a fellow Jeeper.
> The fact that
> you
> > >> don't know this shows your ignorance.
> > >> Losing Joe would be a major asset loss for this group.
> If you don't
> know
> > >> that, you have a long way to go.
> > >>
> > >> Chris
> > >>
> > >>> From: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>
> > >>> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:35:53 -0700
> > >>> To: arizonajeep@c..., "'Chatfield, Mike'"
> <Mike@A...>,
> > >>> az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > >>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >>>
> > >>> Promise?
> > >>>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > >>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:09 PM
> > >>> To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > >>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >>>
> > >>> Mike,
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm not talking legal anything... I'm against ANYONE
> who chooses to
> > > divide
> > >>> (shadow... whatever word you choose to use) the Arizona
> Virtual Jeep
> > > Club.
> > >>> Unless you get a simple majority (1 vote greater than
> half the current
> > >>> membership count) voting for this shadow club... I will
> believe that
> it
> > > was
> > >>> the wrong thing to do. If you do manage to get a
> simple majority for
> > > this
> > >>> new "real" club, I will believe that it was the right
> thing for the
> club
> > > to
> > >>> do... but the wrong thing for me... at which point I
> will silently go
> > > away.
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm against it Mike, because I am all too familiar with the
> divisiveness
> > > of
> > >>> "real" groups... Although you have put a great deal of
> time into our
> > > club
> > >>> webpage, it does not authorize you to take our name and
> give it to
> > > another
> > >>> group. Even the original six members voting for it
> cannot authorize
> > > this
> > >>> change... there must be a majority vote for this to be
> a fair and
> honest
> > >>> change.
> > >>>
> > >>> The spirit of this club will change Mike... and there
> is nothing you,
> or
> > >>> anyone else, will be able to do to stop it. We don't
> need rules, or
> > > bylaws,
> > >>> or a board of directors and incorporation... You are
> pressing for
> > > change
> > >>> which will ultimately redefine our group and I don't
> want this to
> > > happen.
> > >>>
> > >>> Joe
> > >>>
> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> > >>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> > >>>> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> > >>>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
> > >>>> entity) has legal
> > >>>> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
> > >>>> the AzVJC never
> > >>>> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't
> > >>>> own anything
> > >>>> (including the copyrighted webpages).
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Just something to think about.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want
> > >>>> to be a part
> > >>>> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
> > >>>> unless YOU make
> > >>>> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> - Mike
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > >>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> > >>>> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > >>>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a
> > >>>> good idea for
> > >>>> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the
> AZVJC....
> > >>>> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
> > >>>> everyone's
> > >>>> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The
> new club must be
> > >>>> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
> > >>>> more than any
> > >>>> other club currently is.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > >>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/






Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


44540 From: wishmaaker <wishmaaker@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:57pm
Subject: hosting cost?


Is someone hosting the azvjc.org website on a personal PC or is
someone paying someone else to host it?


44541 From: Brian Hill <brian@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 6:11pm
Subject: RE: A free Ride... was something about organization...


It's the "I have parachutes" part that makes me wonder... That and flying
over my house! ;-)

~B~

-----Original Message-----
From: Clint Ramsey [mailto:cwramsey@t...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:25 PM
To: arizonajeep@c...; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] A free Ride... was something about organization...

You're asking for volunteers to let you practice with them in the
plane??

-----Original Message-----
From:
sentto-1011514-37323-1014940236-cwramsey=theriver.com@r...
oo.com
[mailto:sentto-1011514-37323-1014940236-cwramsey=theriver.com@r...
oups.yahoo.com] On Behalf Of Joe W
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:51 PM
To: 'Eric Marble'; 'Brian Hill'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; 'Chris Krieg'
Subject: [az_vjc] A free Ride... was something about organization...

Speaking of the skys...

If anyone is interested in taking a plane ride, let me know. I have
lots of
practicing to do, and I'd just as soon take someone with me as not.
Shoot
me an email if you'd like to take a flight over FJ or the lakes or your
house (assuming it isn't in class B airspace <grin>).

No charge... just fun. I have parachutes if you get scared.
<evil grin>

Joe

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eric Marble [mailto:emarble3@p...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:23 PM
> To: Brian Hill; arizonajeep@c...; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com;
> Chris Krieg
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Rumor has it Joe's going to take his reading program to the
> skies to reach
> more chillens.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
> To: "Eric Marble" <EMarble3@p...>; "Brian Hill"
> <brian@a...>; <arizonajeep@c...>;
> <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> > LMAO!!
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > > From: "Eric Marble" <EMarble3@p...>
> > > Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:08:20 -0700
> > > To: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>, <arizonajeep@c...>,
> > > <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>, "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
> > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >
> > > If it wasn't for Joes Jeep how would the little ones
> learn to read?
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
> > > To: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>; <arizonajeep@c...>;
> > > <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:46 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >
> > >
> > >> OK, that is way beyond what is called for!
> > >> Do you know Joe and how many people he has helped? If
> not, Shut the
> hell
> > > up!
> > >> Joe has contibuted more to this group than a large
> majority of the
> > > members.
> > >> He will drop what he is doing to help a fellow Jeeper.
> The fact that
> you
> > >> don't know this shows your ignorance.
> > >> Losing Joe would be a major asset loss for this group.
> If you don't
> know
> > >> that, you have a long way to go.
> > >>
> > >> Chris
> > >>
> > >>> From: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>
> > >>> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:35:53 -0700
> > >>> To: arizonajeep@c..., "'Chatfield, Mike'"
> <Mike@A...>,
> > >>> az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > >>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >>>
> > >>> Promise?
> > >>>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > >>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:09 PM
> > >>> To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > >>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >>>
> > >>> Mike,
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm not talking legal anything... I'm against ANYONE
> who chooses to
> > > divide
> > >>> (shadow... whatever word you choose to use) the Arizona
> Virtual Jeep
> > > Club.
> > >>> Unless you get a simple majority (1 vote greater than
> half the current
> > >>> membership count) voting for this shadow club... I will
> believe that
> it
> > > was
> > >>> the wrong thing to do. If you do manage to get a
> simple majority for
> > > this
> > >>> new "real" club, I will believe that it was the right
> thing for the
> club
> > > to
> > >>> do... but the wrong thing for me... at which point I
> will silently go
> > > away.
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm against it Mike, because I am all too familiar with the
> divisiveness
> > > of
> > >>> "real" groups... Although you have put a great deal of
> time into our
> > > club
> > >>> webpage, it does not authorize you to take our name and
> give it to
> > > another
> > >>> group. Even the original six members voting for it
> cannot authorize
> > > this
> > >>> change... there must be a majority vote for this to be
> a fair and
> honest
> > >>> change.
> > >>>
> > >>> The spirit of this club will change Mike... and there
> is nothing you,
> or
> > >>> anyone else, will be able to do to stop it. We don't
> need rules, or
> > > bylaws,
> > >>> or a board of directors and incorporation... You are
> pressing for
> > > change
> > >>> which will ultimately redefine our group and I don't
> want this to
> > > happen.
> > >>>
> > >>> Joe
> > >>>
> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> > >>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> > >>>> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> > >>>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
> > >>>> entity) has legal
> > >>>> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
> > >>>> the AzVJC never
> > >>>> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't
> > >>>> own anything
> > >>>> (including the copyrighted webpages).
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Just something to think about.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want
> > >>>> to be a part
> > >>>> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
> > >>>> unless YOU make
> > >>>> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> - Mike
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > >>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> > >>>> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > >>>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a
> > >>>> good idea for
> > >>>> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the
> AZVJC....
> > >>>> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
> > >>>> everyone's
> > >>>> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The
> new club must be
> > >>>> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
> > >>>> more than any
> > >>>> other club currently is.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > >>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/






Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/








Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


44542 From: Kevin <nau88xj@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:56pm
Subject: Re: Re: Flagstaff 4 x4


They installed a SYE in my XJ about a year and a half ago and they did
alright, but it was WAY overpriced. I just didnt have an option because my
driveshaft had just blown so I decided to buy a CV shaft and RE SYE. I
think they charged me a couple hundred to install it if I remember right.
Most people can do that job in about 2 hours from what I have seen. I just
didnt have anywhere or any tools to work on it with.


----- Original Message -----
From: "jeepin_in_az" <jeepin_in_az@y...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:05 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Flagstaff 4 x4


| Where is "turd brown"? Chirs lives up there, and he does work at an
| off-road shop, don't know which one though....
|
| Mike Baney
|
|
| --- In az_vjc@y..., "rick_logan2002" <rlogan@d...> wrote:
| > Anybody have an opionion on this company
|
|
|
|
| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|
|


44543 From: James Towle <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 6:07pm
Subject: Some help is needed by a fellow Jeeper


A friend of mine runs a BBS http://www.hardcorejeep.net and also
manages/owns the web site http://www.hardcorejeep.com. He was just served
with papers by DC for using the word "jeep" in his site name. here is a link
to the message he posted:
http://hardcorejeep.com/cgi-bin/jeep/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=0000
48. I would appreciate any help on his behalf the anyone could render. Some
of the stuff on his site is not totally family oriented, but he is a Jeeper
none the less that is trying to do a "non-profit" service for other Jeepers.

Thanks,

--James Towle


44544 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 6:24pm
Subject: RE: A free Ride... was something about organization...


Ya... I need practice dealing with sick passengers...
The FAA states that you need at least 6 spews over the inside windows before
you can get
your advanced certifications.

Joe

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clint Ramsey [mailto:cwramsey@t...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:25 PM
> To: arizonajeep@c...; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] A free Ride... was something about
> organization...
>
>
> You're asking for volunteers to let you practice with them in the
> plane??
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> sentto-1011514-37323-1014940236-cwramsey=theriver.com@returns.
> groups.yah
> oo.com
> [mailto:sentto-1011514-37323-1014940236-cwramsey=theriver.com@
> returns.gr
> oups.yahoo.com] On Behalf Of Joe W
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:51 PM
> To: 'Eric Marble'; 'Brian Hill'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; 'Chris Krieg'
> Subject: [az_vjc] A free Ride... was something about organization...
>
> Speaking of the skys...
>
> If anyone is interested in taking a plane ride, let me know. I have
> lots of
> practicing to do, and I'd just as soon take someone with me as not.
> Shoot
> me an email if you'd like to take a flight over FJ or the
> lakes or your
> house (assuming it isn't in class B airspace <grin>).
>
> No charge... just fun. I have parachutes if you get scared.
> <evil grin>
>
> Joe
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Eric Marble [mailto:emarble3@p...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:23 PM
> > To: Brian Hill; arizonajeep@c...; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com;
> > Chris Krieg
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> > Rumor has it Joe's going to take his reading program to the
> > skies to reach
> > more chillens.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
> > To: "Eric Marble" <EMarble3@p...>; "Brian Hill"
> > <brian@a...>; <arizonajeep@c...>;
> > <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:04 PM
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> > > LMAO!!
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > > From: "Eric Marble" <EMarble3@p...>
> > > > Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:08:20 -0700
> > > > To: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>,
> <arizonajeep@c...>,
> > > > <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>, "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
> > > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > > >
> > > > If it wasn't for Joes Jeep how would the little ones
> > learn to read?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
> > > > To: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>;
> <arizonajeep@c...>;
> > > > <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:46 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> OK, that is way beyond what is called for!
> > > >> Do you know Joe and how many people he has helped? If
> > not, Shut the
> > hell
> > > > up!
> > > >> Joe has contibuted more to this group than a large
> > majority of the
> > > > members.
> > > >> He will drop what he is doing to help a fellow Jeeper.
> > The fact that
> > you
> > > >> don't know this shows your ignorance.
> > > >> Losing Joe would be a major asset loss for this group.
> > If you don't
> > know
> > > >> that, you have a long way to go.
> > > >>
> > > >> Chris
> > > >>
> > > >>> From: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>
> > > >>> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:35:53 -0700
> > > >>> To: arizonajeep@c..., "'Chatfield, Mike'"
> > <Mike@A...>,
> > > >>> az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > >>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Promise?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > > >>> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > > >>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:09 PM
> > > >>> To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > >>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Mike,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I'm not talking legal anything... I'm against ANYONE
> > who chooses to
> > > > divide
> > > >>> (shadow... whatever word you choose to use) the Arizona
> > Virtual Jeep
> > > > Club.
> > > >>> Unless you get a simple majority (1 vote greater than
> > half the current
> > > >>> membership count) voting for this shadow club... I will
> > believe that
> > it
> > > > was
> > > >>> the wrong thing to do. If you do manage to get a
> > simple majority for
> > > > this
> > > >>> new "real" club, I will believe that it was the right
> > thing for the
> > club
> > > > to
> > > >>> do... but the wrong thing for me... at which point I
> > will silently go
> > > > away.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I'm against it Mike, because I am all too familiar with the
> > divisiveness
> > > > of
> > > >>> "real" groups... Although you have put a great deal of
> > time into our
> > > > club
> > > >>> webpage, it does not authorize you to take our name and
> > give it to
> > > > another
> > > >>> group. Even the original six members voting for it
> > cannot authorize
> > > > this
> > > >>> change... there must be a majority vote for this to be
> > a fair and
> > honest
> > > >>> change.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> The spirit of this club will change Mike... and there
> > is nothing you,
> > or
> > > >>> anyone else, will be able to do to stop it. We don't
> > need rules, or
> > > > bylaws,
> > > >>> or a board of directors and incorporation... You are
> > pressing for
> > > > change
> > > >>> which will ultimately redefine our group and I don't
> > want this to
> > > > happen.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Joe
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > >>>> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> > > >>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> > > >>>> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> > > >>>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
> > > >>>> entity) has legal
> > > >>>> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
> > > >>>> the AzVJC never
> > > >>>> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't
> > > >>>> own anything
> > > >>>> (including the copyrighted webpages).
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Just something to think about.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want
> > > >>>> to be a part
> > > >>>> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
> > > >>>> unless YOU make
> > > >>>> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS
> YOUR CHOICE.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> - Mike
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > >>>> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > > >>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> > > >>>> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > >>>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a
> > > >>>> good idea for
> > > >>>> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the
> > AZVJC....
> > > >>>> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
> > > >>>> everyone's
> > > >>>> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The
> > new club must be
> > > >>>> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
> > > >>>> more than any
> > > >>>> other club currently is.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > >>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


44545 From: Brian Hill <brian@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 6:32pm
Subject: RE: Some help is needed by a fellow Jeeper


Oooh! Nice site! Is that why it's so quiet here now? I haven't seen a post
in almost 20 minutes! ;->

-----Original Message-----
From: James Towle [mailto:James.Towle@a...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 7:07 PM
To: AZ_VJC
Subject: [az_vjc] Some help is needed by a fellow Jeeper

A friend of mine runs a BBS http://www.hardcorejeep.net and also
manages/owns the web site http://www.hardcorejeep.com. He was just served
with papers by DC for using the word "jeep" in his site name. here is a link
to the message he posted:
http://hardcorejeep.com/cgi-bin/jeep/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=0000
48. I would appreciate any help on his behalf the anyone could render. Some
of the stuff on his site is not totally family oriented, but he is a Jeeper
none the less that is trying to do a "non-profit" service for other Jeepers.

Thanks,

--James Towle




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


44546 From: wishmaaker <wishmaaker@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 6:26pm
Subject: Re: Some help is needed by a fellow Jeeper


If he is advertising items for sale using the name Jeep, then he is in
hot water. But he should be able to protect himself by adding the
following statement to his site -

"Jeep, Wrangler, CJ, Renegade, Quadra-trac" and the Jeep Grille Design
are registered trademarks of DalmerChrysler, hardcorejeep.net has no
affiliation with DalmerChrysler. The use of the term "Jeep","CJ",
"Wrangler", and "Renegade," are for identification purposes only.



--- In az_vjc@y..., "James Towle" <James.Towle@a...> wrote:
> A friend of mine runs a BBS http://www.hardcorejeep.net and also
> manages/owns the web site http://www.hardcorejeep.com. He was just
served
> with papers by DC for using the word "jeep" in his site name. here
is a link
> to the message he posted:
>
http://hardcorejeep.com/cgi-bin/jeep/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&
t=0000
> 48. I would appreciate any help on his behalf the anyone could
render. Some
> of the stuff on his site is not totally family oriented, but he is a
Jeeper
> none the less that is trying to do a "non-profit" service for other
Jeepers.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --James Towle


44547 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 6:49pm
Subject: RE: New poll for az_vjc


A very poor wording of the poll question. Since the permit is good for a
year from the date of purchase, one should ask if you currently have a valid
permit.

No....I have not gotten one this year because mine still has several months
left on it...like about 5 or so. DOH!

Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com


-----Original Message-----
From: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:az_vjc@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:49 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] New poll for az_vjc



Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
az_vjc group:

Did you get your Az State Land Use
Permit this year?

o Yes
o No
o Oops, I forgot, I'll get one soon though, I promise.


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/az_vjc/polls

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!









Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


44548 From: Scott Kruize <scottkruize@e...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 6:49pm
Subject: RE: flat towing TJs with front lockers


I once talked to an RV owner who had a caster problem on the TJ he was
flat towing. He managed to wear the front tires down until they were
completely flat in about 100 miles.

I imagine its pretty tough to see or feel that happening behind a big
diesel pusher.

I'd get the caster taken care of before you tow it again.

Scott K

-----Original Message-----
From: DesertJeep [mailto:joey@d...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 11:36 AM
To: Darren Richards; azcj; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] flat towing TJs with front lockers


Well that's not good. If you don't fix the caster you should go to a
trailer. Either the one that just carries the front tires or a full one.
I have heard of people flat towing and tying down the steering so the
wheels do not turn. What that does is fight the towing vehicle. Could
end up wearing tires and putting stress on the hitch and tow bar. Just
some observations. Joey K 93YJ www.desertjeep.com

-----Original Message-----
From: darrenr@p... [mailto:darrenr@p...]On Behalf Of
Darren Richards
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:37 AM
To: azcj; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] flat towing TJs with front lockers


I agree that if no torque is applied, an automatic locker should not
lock around turns, and should not be noticable when flat-towing. I've
got manual hubs on my Jeep, so it's not a problem either way. My
problem is that I have longer shackles, which have messed up my caster
angle. This causes my jeep tires to turn the *opposite* way in a tight
turn when I'm flat towing. Not good...

azcj wrote:
>
> A friend of mine wants to put lockers front and rear in his TJ. He
> will be flat towing it behind his motorhome. He heard that some
> lockers, Lockright specifically, tend to keep the wheels from going
> back straight after a turn. Has anyone had this problem? He doesn't
> want ARBs.
>
> Scott K, I know you have a non-ARB locker up front and flat tow, have
> you noticed this?
>
> Thanks,
> Scott E.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


44549 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:01pm
Subject: RE: Re: Random Input


Amen!

Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com


-----Original Message-----
From: jetowle2000 [mailto:James.Towle@a...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:49 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Random Input



I thought it was better in some ways.
I thought as a group you only needed to have one permit. Thus, in the
government's eye, showing that there is only, let's say 10 groups as
aposed to 200 people. When they count they count only the permits
assigned, not the people using those permits. This gives them an
unsually low count on how many people are actually using land.

I thought Stu had brought this up once, not to drag Stu into this
muddled water.

--James

--- In az_vjc@y..., "Clay Forrester" <allvol@c...> wrote:
> "contributing directly to ASA4WD or the BRC as an INDIVIDUAL the
same, or
> even better, than paying club dues" Yes, this is a GREAT way to
help keep
> the trails open. Sorry for the late response....just got home from
work.
>
>
> Clay Forrester
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <tandljacobson@a...>
> To: <az_vjc@y...>
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:07 AM
> Subject: [az_vjc] Random Input
>
>
> > Message: 19
> > Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:59:40 -0700
> > From: "Clay Forrester" <allvol@c...>
> > Subject: Re: Thanks (more)........
> >
> > "...They will ALL be shut
> > down and the land closed off.
> >
> >
> > Zilla
> >
> > Except for those secret new trails that you need a small, uhh,
errr, unit
> to run! Only kidding!!! <bob, weave, duck incoming flames!>
> >
> > Regarding the other post about club membership...I tend to agree
with the
> folks who do not prefer to belong to additional, organized clubs.
I know
> people who both do and don't, but I'm not interested. But a
question, isn't
> contributing directly to ASA4WD or the BRC as an INDIVIDUAL the
same, or
> even better, than paying club dues, of which only a portion go to
land
> access groups?
> >
> > And a quick jab to Stu - if you start going by "Timber Chucker",
you're
> gonna have to disregard all your own advice since it's coming from
a "screen
> name"! ;-)
> >
> > Finally...is anyone thinking about a rock-unstacking run for an
FJ trail
> yet? Upper WP? Ajax? Might try to get in on the Terminator
cleanup, but
> have never run it...minimum Jeep requirements?
> >
> > TJ (errr, Tom Jacobson)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


44550 From: Scott Kruize <scottkruize@e...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:02pm
Subject: RE: The good, Bad and the Ulgy.....


Hmmm, I guess everybody must fit into the first group. I am an
individual member of the ASA4WDC and get a State Trust Land use permit
every year.

I broke the rules and read your entire post ;)

I agree with you 100%.

Scott K

-----Original Message-----
From: scramzilla [mailto:allvol@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:41 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] The good, Bad and the Ulgy.....


I've read most of the posts on the subject of Rock stacking, by-pass
building and organized clubs ect....ect.... And I have kept and open
mind about it. Most of the people in this group have done the same. My
last message will address the people that I believe are the minority
few.

First let me give the primmer for this post. If you are a member of
any organization that promotes public land use and helps keep it open
to the general public.....Attend regular "clean up" events in your
area.....Or attend or speak out at land issue meetings that try to
prevent groups from closing more and more of our public land, the rest
of this message does NOT apply to you....I repeat, does NOT apply to
you.


************************************************** ********************
************************************************** ********************
************************************************** *********

Delete this message now if you fall into one or all of the categories
that I listed above.

************************************************** ********************
************************************************** ********************
************************************************** *********

After reading the VJC over the last few days I can see that the Yahoo
portion of the VJC is no more than a message board turned into a chat
group. There is nothing wrong with that....just stating a fact. This
was even alluded to by several posting members. Now the other main
web page is another story.....I'm talking about the dot Org. page. It
is set up like another club pages with Trips, members rides, events,
yada yada yada. It is very interesting to me that the VJC tries very
hard not to become a club but is a club in spite of itself. It's like
the members of this group want to be a group but for one reason or
another, fail to go that extra step....(As I stated many times, I
don't care one way or the other)....just making a point.

I have heard from many posters that trumpet the club membership
numbers.....anywhere from a 1000 to 1400+. Now that is all well and
good but big numbers do NOT equate to a Jeeper behind every poster. I
would be willing to bet that there are members that do not even
believe in the recreational 4-wheelin' Yep! I bet there are a few
eco-Nazis in this group watching and listing what is discussed....If I
were one of their Ilk, that's what I'd do. Also, there are many people
that read this board solely for it's entertainment value.
Entertainment in watching people smack around each other and watching
people post messages about 4-wheelin' that do not have a clue of which
they speak.

Now I would very much like to address the people that do NOT fall into
ANY of the categories that I listed above. I'll call these people:
Jeepers marooned on the Island of misfit toys. You know the Christmas
story. It's a place for toys that did not fit the "norm" as far as
toys go. There was a "Charlie in the box".........and Water Pistol
that shot jelly.... Oh, and don't forget the Elephant with the pink
spots.......I think you get the picture. They are in a world of there
on. These wheelin' misfits don't give a flying monkeys *** about club
dues, ASA or ANY organization that asks for money. Oh they have
money. And have nooooooooo problem spending tons of it on their rig!
They think that it's a by-gawd free country and they can do whatever
they want, whenever they want, and nobody by-gawd better try stop-um.

Then you have the "I've been here longer that you" group of people
that will whip up a story about wheelin' a certain place for X-number
of years and that's just the way it's gonna be. It was free 30 years
ago so it's gonna be free now!......Most of the time they blame
everything on the younger generation.

Which brings me to the younger generation. There are many youths
driving Quads now that were not around years ago and these things
cause MAJOR damage to land a vegetation. A careless quad rider can do
more damage in a week than a parking lot full of trail riding Jeeps can
do in a year!

Last but not least is probably most dangerous group of wheelers out
there. It's the "no opinion whatsoever" group. They just go about
there
business, not a care in the world until it effects them directly. A
large % of Dune people are this way but last year they got their wake
up call. Yep! They were fat dumb and happy until the Eco-Nazis found a
weed that is on the endangered species list growing in the
Dunes.......then BAM!!!!!!!.....Half the Dunes were closed in the
blink of an eye.

I'll summarize my point now by saying: EVERY MEMBER IN THIS GROUP CAN
COME UP WITH $25.00 AND JOIN THE ASA! IF YOU ARE TO FREAKIN' CHEAP TO
SPEND $25.00 A YEAR TO HELP KEEP THE LAND THAT YOU SAY IS YOURS
......I CONSIDER YOU A PARASITE ON THE BACK OF EVERY WHEELER IN THIS
STATE THAT LIVES UP TO THAT MINIMUM STANDARD. Now before you start
sending me hate mail, make sure that you re-read the first section
again just in case you missed it.


Clay Forrester







Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


44551 From: Clay Forrester <allvol@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:19pm
Subject: Re: The good, Bad and the Ulgy.....


Thanks....and I hope that is the case for ever member on the site. But
because a few emails I received, I don't think so. :-)


Clay


----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Kruize" <scottkruize@e...>
To: "'scramzilla'" <allvol@c...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:02 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] The good, Bad and the Ulgy.....


> Hmmm, I guess everybody must fit into the first group. I am an
> individual member of the ASA4WDC and get a State Trust Land use permit
> every year.
>
> I broke the rules and read your entire post ;)
>
> I agree with you 100%.
>
> Scott K
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: scramzilla [mailto:allvol@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:41 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] The good, Bad and the Ulgy.....
>
>
> I've read most of the posts on the subject of Rock stacking, by-pass
> building and organized clubs ect....ect.... And I have kept and open
> mind about it. Most of the people in this group have done the same. My
> last message will address the people that I believe are the minority
> few.
>
> First let me give the primmer for this post. If you are a member of
> any organization that promotes public land use and helps keep it open
> to the general public.....Attend regular "clean up" events in your
> area.....Or attend or speak out at land issue meetings that try to
> prevent groups from closing more and more of our public land, the rest
> of this message does NOT apply to you....I repeat, does NOT apply to
> you.
>
>
> ************************************************** ********************
> ************************************************** ********************
> ************************************************** *********
>
> Delete this message now if you fall into one or all of the categories
> that I listed above.
>
> ************************************************** ********************
> ************************************************** ********************
> ************************************************** *********
>
> After reading the VJC over the last few days I can see that the Yahoo
> portion of the VJC is no more than a message board turned into a chat
> group. There is nothing wrong with that....just stating a fact. This
> was even alluded to by several posting members. Now the other main
> web page is another story.....I'm talking about the dot Org. page. It
> is set up like another club pages with Trips, members rides, events,
> yada yada yada. It is very interesting to me that the VJC tries very
> hard not to become a club but is a club in spite of itself. It's like
> the members of this group want to be a group but for one reason or
> another, fail to go that extra step....(As I stated many times, I
> don't care one way or the other)....just making a point.
>
> I have heard from many posters that trumpet the club membership
> numbers.....anywhere from a 1000 to 1400+. Now that is all well and
> good but big numbers do NOT equate to a Jeeper behind every poster. I
> would be willing to bet that there are members that do not even
> believe in the recreational 4-wheelin' Yep! I bet there are a few
> eco-Nazis in this group watching and listing what is discussed....If I
> were one of their Ilk, that's what I'd do. Also, there are many people
> that read this board solely for it's entertainment value.
> Entertainment in watching people smack around each other and watching
> people post messages about 4-wheelin' that do not have a clue of which
> they speak.
>
> Now I would very much like to address the people that do NOT fall into
> ANY of the categories that I listed above. I'll call these people:
> Jeepers marooned on the Island of misfit toys. You know the Christmas
> story. It's a place for toys that did not fit the "norm" as far as
> toys go. There was a "Charlie in the box".........and Water Pistol
> that shot jelly.... Oh, and don't forget the Elephant with the pink
> spots.......I think you get the picture. They are in a world of there
> on. These wheelin' misfits don't give a flying monkeys *** about club
> dues, ASA or ANY organization that asks for money. Oh they have
> money. And have nooooooooo problem spending tons of it on their rig!
> They think that it's a by-gawd free country and they can do whatever
> they want, whenever they want, and nobody by-gawd better try stop-um.
>
> Then you have the "I've been here longer that you" group of people
> that will whip up a story about wheelin' a certain place for X-number
> of years and that's just the way it's gonna be. It was free 30 years
> ago so it's gonna be free now!......Most of the time they blame
> everything on the younger generation.
>
> Which brings me to the younger generation. There are many youths
> driving Quads now that were not around years ago and these things
> cause MAJOR damage to land a vegetation. A careless quad rider can do
> more damage in a week than a parking lot full of trail riding Jeeps can
> do in a year!
>
> Last but not least is probably most dangerous group of wheelers out
> there. It's the "no opinion whatsoever" group. They just go about
> there
> business, not a care in the world until it effects them directly. A
> large % of Dune people are this way but last year they got their wake
> up call. Yep! They were fat dumb and happy until the Eco-Nazis found a
> weed that is on the endangered species list growing in the
> Dunes.......then BAM!!!!!!!.....Half the Dunes were closed in the
> blink of an eye.
>
> I'll summarize my point now by saying: EVERY MEMBER IN THIS GROUP CAN
> COME UP WITH $25.00 AND JOIN THE ASA! IF YOU ARE TO FREAKIN' CHEAP TO
> SPEND $25.00 A YEAR TO HELP KEEP THE LAND THAT YOU SAY IS YOURS
> ......I CONSIDER YOU A PARASITE ON THE BACK OF EVERY WHEELER IN THIS
> STATE THAT LIVES UP TO THAT MINIMUM STANDARD. Now before you start
> sending me hate mail, make sure that you re-read the first section
> again just in case you missed it.
>
>
> Clay Forrester
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


44552 From: Scott Kruize <scottkruize@e...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:28pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs


Joe,

I'm not posting in favor of one way or another.

Argument #1 (from the common AZVJC member): "I like it the way it is. I
have a Jeep and like driving it. I do mods so I can get out to my
hunting spot and the tech info is nice. Please keep the group as is." Or
the sort of people that enjoy simple trail runs - "I love my Jeep. Lets
cruise up to Crown King and run FR42." Or, "I need a new lift for my
pavement pounder. Whats the sweetest riding thing out there?" My point
here is that none of these types of Jeepers are wrong, they just enjoy
Jeepin' their own way. I can honestly see why they wouldn't want to
change a thing. The AZVJC is a great place to hang out when you can't be
on the trail.

Argument #2: Is it possible that by not doing some very light organizing
that we are really limiting the political impact we can have on the
sport? Think of it as voting for the presidencey...am I voting for the
lesser of two evils? I hear lots of people say this to which I respond
"did you vote in the primary when your vote could have had a bigger
impact?" Think about it. Are we limiting ourselves by being stubborn
when what Mike has proposed is as painless a solution as could ever be?.
How many members actually purchase State Land permits and join the
ASA4WDC? Thousands of users of the dunes were stunned when they lost
half of the dunes. I bet a good majority of those had "Got Sand"
stickers on the back of their pickup trucks. Where are those people now?
*****ing and moaning about the eco-nazis. Where were they before this?
"Lets go play in the sand." Guess what...if you don't own the sand you
better kiss up to those that do or it may disappear. Guess who kissed up
to the gov't the most??????????

Anyway that's all I'm saying. In the past I've switched from one side to
the other and then back again. I don't care to share which side I'm on.
I just want everybody to think about it.

Scott K



-----Original Message-----
From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:02 PM
To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs


Hi Mike,

Splitting the group into two clubs will ultimately lead to the demise of
one or the other. I see absolutely no reason to become a "real" club or
have a mirror "real" club at all. Should we become real so we can be
regulated? Should we become real so we can have officers or pay dues?
I'm sorry, but the benefits of being virtual far outweigh the benefits
of being real. If you'd care to elaborate on the benefits you see to
being real; I'd be more than happy to have a nice debate with you.

As far as taking the AzVJC name... ABSOLUTELY NOT! If you want to
create a separate group, you create it with a completely different name
(unless of course, EVERYONE in the club agrees to allowing our name to
be used by this new offshoot group). Your suggestion of having people
join the Arizona LowRangers is a good one. If anyone craves reality,
this will be a good option for them and will ensure that any "real" club
remains absolutely separate.

You've done a good job with our webpage Mike... you've invested more
personal time than perhaps any other member of our club; for this, I
thank you. However, I believe your attempts to "organize" our group are
misguided and not at all in the interests of the majority of the people
in our club. This is yet another case of; if it ain't broke, don't fix
it.

The AZVJC isn't broke, and it doesn't need to be changed. I look
forward to our continued discussion...

Joe

>




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


44553 From: Scott Kruize <scottkruize@e...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:32pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs


Joe,

You are a good friend. Could I ask you a favor? Don't use the AZVJC as a bully pulpit. We've all heard your opinion and lets leave it at that. Lets give the other 1398 members a chance to voice theirs

PLEASE!

Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@cox.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:23 PM
To: 'Brian Hill'; 'David R. W. Withers'
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs


And pay close attention to the number of people who have voted... pathetic isn't it? Mike's idea won't even get a SIMPLE majority of the total number of members... and we're not going to be making such decisions based on anything less... Is there anyone out here who believes we should make such a decision based on the wants of 2% of our membership? We'll see...
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
To: David R. W. Withers
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs


David,

Already read it before joining. You think I didn't. Ha! You make a lot of assumptions for such a bright individual.

In life everything changes and evolves. This will happen to AzVJC too. Sorry you don't like it, but you don't have to. This won't hurt you a bit.

Don't look now but the response to the poll is about 50/50 with 16 percent undecided.

If you do it the way you've always done it, then you'll get what you've always got.

I like change... Change is good.

Brian

----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'Brian Hill'
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs


read the history of the club, and maybe you'll understand.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:48 PM
To: David R. W. Withers
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs


No I'm not. I'm kinda new around here. Thought I found myself a home though. Not sure yet why I want to be a member of that organization yet, but I'll figure it out eventually. Newbies get a break on this don't they? You must be a big time member or you wouldn't be asking. Good for you! You should be proud.

I guess if the ASA4WDC changes it's mind next year then so be it. I'm sure that they'll miss both the revenue and ability to influence what we do at AzVJC inc. Let's cross that bridge when we come to it.

If you're not investing in a paid membership in an incorporated AzVJC club then you really don't have anything to complain about do you? What's the beef?

Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'Brian Hill'
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:29 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs


The question is, why aren't you a ASA4WDC member already????
probably not
What happens next year when the ASAWDC says, we changed our minds, you need to have meetings and by-laws?
What then?!!!!
David

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:26 PM
To: David R. W. Withers; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs


Hi David,

I thought you were going away for awhile... What happened?

How about not telling me how to spend my money... If I want to spend it on AzVJC for a membership club I should be able to. I want to contribute to this club in that way.

If you don't want to participate then don't. Continue to be a member in the form you are now. Still sounds like everyone is welcome. Even You

Do you think it devalues your membership because there are those who are willing to contribute monetarily to the club and those who aren't?

Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs


If you want to help out, give your money to those organized clubs.

-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@azvjc.org]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:53 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs


Joe,

I think you missed the point here. The idea is not to change the AzVJC
as it is, but in essence to create a 2nd club, a shadow club. The AzVJC
will remain unchanged, people will still come and go as they please,
there will still be no dues, no elections, no rules, just as it is now.
However, members of the AzVJC will have the OPTION to join the 2nd club
and the only requirement that is different is that they will need to pay
dues; in addition, the other "requirements" (ie. live in Az, own a Jeep)
will simply be enforced.

I agree that the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club does not need anything else.
However, offering the OPTION of joining a "Real" club that is a shadow
of the Az "Virtual" JC, I can only see this as a good thing for both the
individuals and our sport in general. Once again to be part of the
AzVJC, nothing changes. To join the shadow club, you simply need to pay
dues.

I thought alot about the name for the 2nd group. And even though the V
stands for "Virtual," I really think it should be the same name. Any
other name wouldn't fit right "Arizona Real Jeep Club", "Arizona Jeep
Club" and besides, then I'd have to create a whole new website
(www.AzRJC.org or www.AzJC.org).

Again this isn't an effort to ORGANIZE the AzVJC, it is an effort to
provide the membership of the AzVJC another OPTION. And I disagree that
the entire AzVJC membership would have to approve of such a thing, those
that don't approve or don't want to don't have to join the shadow club.
All we need is enough interest to see it through and enough initial
members to split the costs of incorporation.

I could even add a field to the Member Profiles called "Affiliated Club"
in which members could put whatever "real" club they belong to. I
suspect that alot of AzVJC members are members of the Az Lo-Rangers as
well.

The bottom line here is that I'm trying to make it easy for members of
the AzVJC to join and maintain membership of an "organized club." The
idea is to provide a webpage where they can pay their dues via PayPal
and be done with it. No meetings to attend no check to write and mail,
just an online payment. If the AzVJC shadow club doesn't interest
anyone, would the membership of the Az LowRangers perhaps be willing to
let our members join "On-Line" and pay their dues via PayPal? Since the
Az-Low Rangers rules are very similiar to the AzVJC's anyhow.

- Mike

--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer...




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



44554 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:37pm
Subject: Re: "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II


:o) I think it took awhile for the guy to realize he was upside down....

Doug

----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Mish
To: rlpii@uswest.net ; Clay Forrester ; DougB
Cc: Stu Olson ; az_vjc
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II


For the record, the Tequila drinker was NOT me! I haven't rolled yet, but the rest of the story sounds familiar....

Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B
----- Original Message -----
From: DougB
To: rlpii@uswest.net ; Clay Forrester
Cc: Stu Olson ; az_vjc
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:11 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II


The worst experience wheeling I ever had was with a group of Yahoos from an organized club. One dude started drinking tequila at 9am, and by 4pm he was sloshed out of his gourd, and rolled his rig. He was not seat belted in (nor was one of his passengers) and could have really hurt himself. The other guys were not a whole lot better. Needless to say, I was not impressed.

However, your point is well taken....there are bad wheelers in any group, unfortunately.

Doug

----- Original Message -----
From: rlpii@qwest.net
To: Clay Forrester
Cc: Stu Olson ; az_vjc
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:06 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II


Guess I miss your point Clay. Not sure what track we lost, and there is no question that the bad apples are out there, some in organized and some in unorganized clubs or groups. My only point was that, IMO, the off roaders who do most of the damage to trails and the environment don't even read about, much less get involved in, land closure issues.
And, in my experience, this has always been a problem. I truly wish I had a good answer to the problem. The government's only response is to close the areas down and that is unfortunate in my view. At least in this forum we can be made aware of the potential issues and closures and contribute in whatever way we can.
Love to hear your stories . . . .:-)
Bob
74 CJ-5
Clay Forrester wrote:

I can match you story for story.......There are bad apples in every bunch.
Let's not lose track here.
Clay

-- Original Message -----
From: "Stu Olson"
To: "rlpeckii"
Cc: "az_vjc"
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:59 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II

> Bob,
>
> Very well said indeed! I have participated at land use meetings and at a
> BLM open forum, I addressed the land management individuals and said
> basically the very same thing (except for the part that I've bene wheelin'
> for 40 years.....man, you are SOOOO old!) (just kidding!)
>
> Again, very nicely stated!
>
> Timber Chucker!
>
>
> Stu Olson
> www.stu-offroad.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rlpeckii [mailto:rlpii@qwest.net]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:31 AM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II
>
>
> Well, I've read most of the recent posts regarding destroying trails
> and the need to belong to an organized club to help keep the trails
> open. I just can't keep it in any longer . . . .:-)
>
> I have been wheelin for over 40 years and for the past 4 years here in
> Arizona. We have some of the best, and most accessable, trails I have
> ever seen, and I have wheeled in California, Alaska, Colorado, Utah,
> Nevada, and of course in Arizona.
>
> Recently I attended an AZVJC run out to Box Canyon and Martinez
> Canyon. For me, this was the best wheelin yet. I found the members
> to be friendly, helpful, knowledgeable, and very concerned about the
> environment. I was proud to be wheelin with these folks . . .
>
> Unfortunately, there were other folks out on this trail too. One in
> particular was a well built "crawler" (looked like a modified Blazer
> without the body), who took it upon himself to go off the trails and
> run over bushes and trees to get by the slower vehicles. We also
> encountered a group of trucks that were drinking heavily (the drivers
> where actucally the ones that were doing the drinking) and pretty much
> tore up their vehicles and the trail. In addition, we encountered a
> lone pick-up truck that couldn't even make it up Box Canyon without
> being strapped up.
>
> I guess my point is that it is not the true "Jeepers" that we have
> worry about, it is these sudo Baja Racers and Rock Crawlers that don't
> read these posts (that would be assuming that they could read), they
> don't even know that lands are being closed, much less they probably
> don't care. Just look at what has happened to Sycamore Creek.
> Everytime I venture out there, I am amazed that it is still open.
>
> I have not seen any evidence that the members of AZVJC ever knowingly
> damage the trails or the environment. While a few may be slightly
> outspoken (grin). They do a lot for our sport/hobby and I only wish I
> had more time and resources to contribute.
>
> I had a few extra cents, so there they are . . .
>
> Keep on wheelin,
> Bob
> 74 CJ-5
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



44556 From: Brian Hill <brian@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:46pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs


If we want an accurate count of our involved active membership, just count the votes from this poll at the end of the week. Those that care, and are involved, will vote. The rest are just takin up space and being counted towards a larger number that is really meaningless as far as political power is concerned.





-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Kruize [mailto:scottkruize@earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:32 PM
To: arizonajeep@cox.net; 'Brian Hill'; 'David R. W. Withers'
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs



Joe,



You are a good friend. Could I ask you a favor? Don't use the AZVJC as a bully pulpit. We've all heard your opinion and lets leave it at that. Lets give the other 1398 members a chance to voice theirs



PLEASE!



Scott K

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@cox.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:23 PM
To: 'Brian Hill'; 'David R. W. Withers'
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs

And pay close attention to the number of people who have voted... pathetic isn't it? Mike's idea won't even get a SIMPLE majority of the total number of members... and we're not going to be making such decisions based on anything less... Is there anyone out here who believes we should make such a decision based on the wants of 2% of our membership? We'll see...

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
To: David R. W. Withers
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs

David,



Already read it before joining. You think I didn't. Ha! You make a lot of assumptions for such a bright individual.



In life everything changes and evolves. This will happen to AzVJC too. Sorry you don't like it, but you don't have to. This won't hurt you a bit.



Don't look now but the response to the poll is about 50/50 with 16 percent undecided.



If you do it the way you've always done it, then you'll get what you've always got.



I like change... Change is good.



Brian



----- Original Message -----


From: David R. W. Withers

To: 'Brian Hill'

Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:59 PM

Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs



read the history of the club, and maybe you'll understand.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:48 PM
To: David R. W. Withers
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs

No I'm not. I'm kinda new around here. Thought I found myself a home though. Not sure yet why I want to be a member of that organization yet, but I'll figure it out eventually. Newbies get a break on this don't they? You must be a big time member or you wouldn't be asking. Good for you! You should be proud.



I guess if the ASA4WDC changes it's mind next year then so be it. I'm sure that they'll miss both the revenue and ability to influence what we do at AzVJC inc. Let's cross that bridge when we come to it.



If you're not investing in a paid membership in an incorporated AzVJC club then you really don't have anything to complain about do you? What's the beef?



Brian

----- Original Message -----


From: David R. W. Withers

To: 'Brian Hill'

Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:29 PM

Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs



The question is, why aren't you a ASA4WDC member already????

probably not

What happens next year when the ASAWDC says, we changed our minds, you need to have meetings and by-laws?

What then?!!!!

David



-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:26 PM
To: David R. W. Withers; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs

Hi David,



I thought you were going away for awhile... What happened?



How about not telling me how to spend my money... If I want to spend it on AzVJC for a membership club I should be able to. I want to contribute to this club in that way.



If you don't want to participate then don't. Continue to be a member in the form you are now. Still sounds like everyone is welcome. Even You



Do you think it devalues your membership because there are those who are willing to contribute monetarily to the club and those who aren't?



Brian

----- Original Message -----


From: David R. W. Withers

To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:09 PM

Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs



If you want to help out, give your money to those organized clubs.

-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@azvjc.org]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:53 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs


Joe,

I think you missed the point here. The idea is not to change the AzVJC
as it is, but in essence to create a 2nd club, a shadow club. The AzVJC
will remain unchanged, people will still come and go as they please,
there will still be no dues, no elections, no rules, just as it is now.
However, members of the AzVJC will have the OPTION to join the 2nd club
and the only requirement that is different is that they will need to pay
dues; in addition, the other "requirements" (ie. live in Az, own a Jeep)
will simply be enforced.

I agree that the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club does not need anything else.
However, offering the OPTION of joining a "Real" club that is a shadow
of the Az "Virtual" JC, I can only see this as a good thing for both the
individuals and our sport in general. Once again to be part of the
AzVJC, nothing changes. To join the shadow club, you simply need to pay
dues.

I thought alot about the name for the 2nd group. And even though the V
stands for "Virtual," I really think it should be the same name. Any
other name wouldn't fit right "Arizona Real Jeep Club", "Arizona Jeep
Club" and besides, then I'd have to create a whole new website
(www.AzRJC.org or www.AzJC.org).

Again this isn't an effort to ORGANIZE the AzVJC, it is an effort to
provide the membership of the AzVJC another OPTION. And I disagree that
the entire AzVJC membership would have to approve of such a thing, those
that don't approve or don't want to don't have to join the shadow club.
All we need is enough interest to see it through and enough initial
members to split the costs of incorporation.

I could even add a field to the Member Profiles called "Affiliated Club"
in which members could put whatever "real" club they belong to. I
suspect that alot of AzVJC members are members of the Az Lo-Rangers as
well.

The bottom line here is that I'm trying to make it easy for members of
the AzVJC to join and maintain membership of an "organized club." The
idea is to provide a webpage where they can pay their dues via PayPal
and be done with it. No meetings to attend no check to write and mail,
just an online payment. If the AzVJC shadow club doesn't interest
anyone, would the membership of the Az LowRangers perhaps be willing to
let our members join "On-Line" and pay their dues via PayPal? Since the
Az-Low Rangers rules are very similiar to the AzVJC's anyhow.

- Mike

--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer...




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44557 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:42pm
Subject: Re: Organize, NOT!!


FWIW, I don't think that Mike was proposing to organize as much as he was
trying to off a solution to the status of AzVJC by ASA and making it easier
to contribute. Personally, I like it the way it is, but I appreciate the
effort and suggestion. Perhaps there are some other ideas that can be
explored beyond the big "O".

Doug

----- Original Message -----
From: "jimmy lambertus" <jeepnazus@y...>
To: "Baja Fleg" <fleigle@h...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Organize, NOT!!


>
> --- It sounds to me like all Mike really wants is to
> make it easier for the 1000 or so members to
> contribute to our sport and be recognized as the
> entity that the AZVJC has become (organized or not ).
> Now if everyone would put as much effort into
> accomplishing that as they have into *****ing about
> becomming incorporated we might find a solution.I have
> heard alot of comments about joining a real club well
> the reason I joined this club is because I dont want
> to be governed by someone else,but times they are a
> changing and the greenies are becomming more and more
> influencial in closeing our lands.There are alot of
> people in this club who dont contribute to the cause
> because they dont know about it.I have a headache now
> from reading all of this nonproductive banter so I
> will stop. Lets all get together this weekend and
> discuss this by the campfire and find a solution.
> Jim (Crusher) Lambertus Baja Fleg
> <fleigle@h...> wrote:
> > Mike
> > The current AZVJC membership is at 1023. So to get
> > your AZVJC inc. plan
> > approved you would need to get 512 yes votes, right
> > now you have 13. If you
> > can 512 HONEST yes votes then even I would have to
> > agree it was the right
> > thing to do. You know that if press this much
> > farther your only going to
> > start a war among us then the only people you will
> > really be helping is the
> > Eco Nazis. Lets all stand back and give Mike his
> > week, he only needs 499
> > yes votes.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> __________________________________________________ _______________
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
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>
>


44558 From: pmioffroad <PRSTGMTRCR@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:44pm
Subject: black diamond suspension


just putting up a short post to offer all club members a 20%discount
on all black diamond suspension systems(exc xcl)any interested
parties can contact me at602-923-6250 from 9-5.

thanks andrew


44559 From: Scott Kruize <scottkruize@e...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:45pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs


Mike,

I sent this privately. I'm keeping my public opinion quiet until others
have had a chance to speak. I don't want to turn the list into a buly
pulpit as JW has.

I want you to know that I really like your idea. It's a shame that so
few really see it as the easiest way to get the benefits of being
organized without the usual pains of an organized club.

Once again I appreciate the effort!

Scott Kruize


-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:06 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs


--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> the reason I'm against this is because anytime you make rules,

No rules.. that is what are by-laws are going to say "There Are No
Rules." (well actually just the ones that ALREADY EXIST and are
POSTED ON THE WEBSITE)


> put people in positions of authority over other people... or a group
> of people, things change.

Hmmm, things change, eh? I've been the webmaster for what almost 2
years? And the group moderator for about a year? What things have
you seen change other than added features (OPTIONS) to the website?
Could I be abusive with my powers? You bet I could, but I am not. I
have not once removed a member from either the list or the website
without THEM asking me to do so. So you see someone already is
in "position of authority" as you put it.

Once again let me reiterate, this is about an OPTION pure and simple.
If you think that by not voluntarily paying dues, that this means
that you're not part of the AzVJC then by the same token if you're
not using every single feature of the AzVJC website you're not part
of the AzVJC. And I have yet to see your Rig in the Whoops section. ;)

- Mike




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44560 From: Scott Kruize <scottkruize@e...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:46pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs


YEP!

-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Marble [mailto:emarble3@prodigy.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:23 PM
To: Brian Hill; arizonajeep@cox.net; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; Chris Krieg
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs


Rumor has it Joe's going to take his reading program to the skies to
reach more chillens.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@mac.com>
To: "Eric Marble" <EMarble3@prodigy.net>; "Brian Hill"
<brian@alacartephoto.com>; <arizonajeep@cox.net>;
<az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs


> LMAO!!
>
> Chris
>
> > From: "Eric Marble" <EMarble3@prodigy.net>
> > Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:08:20 -0700
> > To: "Brian Hill" <brian@alacartephoto.com>, <arizonajeep@cox.net>,
> > <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>, "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@mac.com>
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> > If it wasn't for Joes Jeep how would the little ones learn to read?
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@mac.com>
> > To: "Brian Hill" <brian@alacartephoto.com>; <arizonajeep@cox.net>;
> > <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:46 PM
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> >> OK, that is way beyond what is called for!
> >> Do you know Joe and how many people he has helped? If not, Shut the
hell
> > up!
> >> Joe has contibuted more to this group than a large majority of the
> > members.
> >> He will drop what he is doing to help a fellow Jeeper. The fact
> >> that
you
> >> don't know this shows your ignorance.
> >> Losing Joe would be a major asset loss for this group. If you don't
know
> >> that, you have a long way to go.
> >>
> >> Chris
> >>
> >>> From: "Brian Hill" <brian@alacartephoto.com>
> >>> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:35:53 -0700
> >>> To: arizonajeep@cox.net, "'Chatfield, Mike'"
> >>> <Mike@AzChatfield.net>, az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> >>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>>
> >>> Promise?
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@cox.net]
> >>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:09 PM
> >>> To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> >>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>>
> >>> Mike,
> >>>
> >>> I'm not talking legal anything... I'm against ANYONE who chooses
> >>> to
> > divide
> >>> (shadow... whatever word you choose to use) the Arizona Virtual
> >>> Jeep
> > Club.
> >>> Unless you get a simple majority (1 vote greater than half the
> >>> current membership count) voting for this shadow club... I will
> >>> believe that
it
> > was
> >>> the wrong thing to do. If you do manage to get a simple majority
> >>> for
> > this
> >>> new "real" club, I will believe that it was the right thing for
> >>> the
club
> > to
> >>> do... but the wrong thing for me... at which point I will silently

> >>> go
> > away.
> >>>
> >>> I'm against it Mike, because I am all too familiar with the
divisiveness
> > of
> >>> "real" groups... Although you have put a great deal of time into
> >>> our
> > club
> >>> webpage, it does not authorize you to take our name and give it to
> > another
> >>> group. Even the original six members voting for it cannot
> >>> authorize
> > this
> >>> change... there must be a majority vote for this to be a fair and
honest
> >>> change.
> >>>
> >>> The spirit of this club will change Mike... and there is nothing
> >>> you,
or
> >>> anyone else, will be able to do to stop it. We don't need rules,
> >>> or
> > bylaws,
> >>> or a board of directors and incorporation... You are pressing for
> > change
> >>> which will ultimately redefine our group and I don't want this to
> > happen.
> >>>
> >>> Joe
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@AzChatfield.net]
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> >>>> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> >>>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
> >>>> entity) has legal
> >>>> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it, the
> >>>> AzVJC never incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore
> >>>> it can't own anything
> >>>> (including the copyrighted webpages).
> >>>>
> >>>> Just something to think about.
> >>>>
> >>>> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want to
> >>>> be a part of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to
> >>>> change unless YOU make
> >>>> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
> >>>>
> >>>> - Mike
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@cox.net]
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> >>>> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> >>>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a
> >>>> good idea for those who need it... do not however, try to relate
> >>>> it to the
AZVJC....
> >>>> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
> >>>> everyone's authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The
> >>>> new club must be separate, and must not be liked to our current
> >>>> website any more than any
> >>>> other club currently is.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




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44561 From: Neal Han**** <azredrocker@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:49pm
Subject: Re: Re: State Land Use Permit


Hey Chris, I asked Sandee McCullen the same question today. She explained that the family permit is for father, mother and children. You could email Pike, Tammy and asker her.

azrckcrawler wrote:

--- In az_vjc@y..., "Robert Holmes" wrote:
> I read the below link but was wondering more about the family
permit thingy,
> Mostly if it covers more than one vehicle, How is family defined,
extened
> family, all live in same house, exc... Is there another place that
I could
> find out this information
>
>
> >From: "azrckcrawler"
> >To: az_vjc@y...
> >Subject: [az_vjc] State Land Use Permit
> >Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 00:51:05 -0000
> >
> >There seems to be some confusion about the club permit. For those
> >who would like to educate themselves go here:
> >http://asa4wdc.org/wd/ . You will see the group permit only covers
a
> >limited number of club functions a month, which is fine IMO. If
you
> >four wheel every weekend (like I do) you really need to pick up a
> >family permit for your own personal use. A lot of this trail
> >mapping stuff came up due to people abusing the club permits (from
> >what I heard), so the club I am in voted to buy each member family
a
> >family permit so we don't have to worry about all the stipulations
on
> >the club permit. Personally I think if the state is having such a
> >problem with people abusing the permits maybe they should just stop
> >the club program and ask everyone to buy a family permit. At $20 a
> >year that is not an outrageous thing to ask. In return I would
hope
> >they would step up enforcement, this would make both camps happy.
All
> >club member and responsible offroaders have a permit and the state
> >starts cracking down on all the yahoos out there drinking,
littering
> >and tearing up the trails.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> ~Robert Holmes
>
>
> __________________________________________________ _______________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger:
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