Yahoo Messages: 44511-44535 [Archive]

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01-04-2004, 02:10 PM

44511-44535

44511 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:45pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs

I've seen nothing negative about expressing an opinion, which Joe has been
doing. I also see nothing wrong with people wanting to suggest a change (not
that I agree with it). That is what this forum is all about. What IS
negative, however, is when you posted the note Chris was responding to.

Doug

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>
To: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>; <arizonajeep@c...>;
<az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:08 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs

> The fact that he has helped a lot of others is good. The fact that he is
so
> sensitive is not. The fact that you come to his aid is a nice touch too.
But
> after the noise he has made today in a negative way, who cares?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:47 PM
> To: Brian Hill; arizonajeep@c...; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
> OK, that is way beyond what is called for!
> Do you know Joe and how many people he has helped? If not, Shut the hell
up!
> Joe has contibuted more to this group than a large majority of the
members.
> He will drop what he is doing to help a fellow Jeeper. The fact that you
> don't know this shows your ignorance.
> Losing Joe would be a major asset loss for this group. If you don't know
> that, you have a long way to go.
>
> Chris
>
> > From: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>
> > Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:35:53 -0700
> > To: arizonajeep@c..., "'Chatfield, Mike'" <Mike@A...>,
> > az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> > Promise?
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:09 PM
> > To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> > I'm not talking legal anything... I'm against ANYONE who chooses to
divide
> > (shadow... whatever word you choose to use) the Arizona Virtual Jeep
Club.
> > Unless you get a simple majority (1 vote greater than half the current
> > membership count) voting for this shadow club... I will believe that it
> was
> > the wrong thing to do. If you do manage to get a simple majority for
this
> > new "real" club, I will believe that it was the right thing for the club
> to
> > do... but the wrong thing for me... at which point I will silently go
> away.
> >
> > I'm against it Mike, because I am all too familiar with the divisiveness
> of
> > "real" groups... Although you have put a great deal of time into our
club
> > webpage, it does not authorize you to take our name and give it to
another
> > group. Even the original six members voting for it cannot authorize
this
> > change... there must be a majority vote for this to be a fair and honest
> > change.
> >
> > The spirit of this club will change Mike... and there is nothing you, or
> > anyone else, will be able to do to stop it. We don't need rules, or
> bylaws,
> > or a board of directors and incorporation... You are pressing for
change
> > which will ultimately redefine our group and I don't want this to
happen.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> >> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> >> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> >> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>
> >>
> >> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
> >> entity) has legal
> >> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
> >> the AzVJC never
> >> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't
> >> own anything
> >> (including the copyrighted webpages).
> >>
> >> Just something to think about.
> >>
> >> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want
> >> to be a part
> >> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
> >> unless YOU make
> >> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
> >>
> >> - Mike
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> >> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> >> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> >> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>
> >>
> >> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a
> >> good idea for
> >> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
> >> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
> >> everyone's
> >> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> >> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
> >> more than any
> >> other club currently is.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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44512 From: az_jeeper_mike <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:47pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs: Michaels response to Mike's response, LOL

Simple you just put in the bylaws that they can't ever be changed.

- Mike

--- In az_vjc@y..., "bajaumbug" <fleigle@h...> wrote:
> Alright Mike I'll play. What if these 3 "officers" all of a sudden
> agree that we will have by-law, rules, elections, meetings,
etc....
> Wouldn't that just be a kick in the (you know) to the rest of us
> that are against this. If I wanted to be told what to do and how
to
> do it then I would go down and re-inlist in the military. No
> thanks, done my time already.
>
> Michael

44513 From: Brian Hill <brian@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:55pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs

Oopsie! I offended you.

Sorry. No offense meant.

-----Original Message-----
From: DougB [mailto:azjeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 5:46 PM
To: Chris Krieg; arizonajeep@c...; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; Brian Hill
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs

I've seen nothing negative about expressing an opinion, which Joe has been
doing. I also see nothing wrong with people wanting to suggest a change (not
that I agree with it). That is what this forum is all about. What IS
negative, however, is when you posted the note Chris was responding to.

Doug

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>
To: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>; <arizonajeep@c...>;
<az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:08 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs

> The fact that he has helped a lot of others is good. The fact that he is
so
> sensitive is not. The fact that you come to his aid is a nice touch too.
But
> after the noise he has made today in a negative way, who cares?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:47 PM
> To: Brian Hill; arizonajeep@c...; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
> OK, that is way beyond what is called for!
> Do you know Joe and how many people he has helped? If not, Shut the hell
up!
> Joe has contibuted more to this group than a large majority of the
members.
> He will drop what he is doing to help a fellow Jeeper. The fact that you
> don't know this shows your ignorance.
> Losing Joe would be a major asset loss for this group. If you don't know
> that, you have a long way to go.
>
> Chris
>
> > From: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>
> > Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:35:53 -0700
> > To: arizonajeep@c..., "'Chatfield, Mike'" <Mike@A...>,
> > az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> > Promise?
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:09 PM
> > To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> > I'm not talking legal anything... I'm against ANYONE who chooses to
divide
> > (shadow... whatever word you choose to use) the Arizona Virtual Jeep
Club.
> > Unless you get a simple majority (1 vote greater than half the current
> > membership count) voting for this shadow club... I will believe that it
> was
> > the wrong thing to do. If you do manage to get a simple majority for
this
> > new "real" club, I will believe that it was the right thing for the club
> to
> > do... but the wrong thing for me... at which point I will silently go
> away.
> >
> > I'm against it Mike, because I am all too familiar with the divisiveness
> of
> > "real" groups... Although you have put a great deal of time into our
club
> > webpage, it does not authorize you to take our name and give it to
another
> > group. Even the original six members voting for it cannot authorize
this
> > change... there must be a majority vote for this to be a fair and honest
> > change.
> >
> > The spirit of this club will change Mike... and there is nothing you, or
> > anyone else, will be able to do to stop it. We don't need rules, or
> bylaws,
> > or a board of directors and incorporation... You are pressing for
change
> > which will ultimately redefine our group and I don't want this to
happen.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> >> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> >> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> >> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>
> >>
> >> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
> >> entity) has legal
> >> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
> >> the AzVJC never
> >> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't
> >> own anything
> >> (including the copyrighted webpages).
> >>
> >> Just something to think about.
> >>
> >> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want
> >> to be a part
> >> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
> >> unless YOU make
> >> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
> >>
> >> - Mike
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> >> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> >> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> >> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>
> >>
> >> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a
> >> good idea for
> >> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
> >> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
> >> everyone's
> >> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> >> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
> >> more than any
> >> other club currently is.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

44514 From: azrckcrawler <chris@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:51pm
Subject: State Land Use Permit

There seems to be some confusion about the club permit. For those
who would like to educate themselves go here:
http://asa4wdc.org/wd/ . You will see the group permit only covers a
limited number of club functions a month, which is fine IMO. If you
four wheel every weekend (like I do) you really need to pick up a
family permit for your own personal use. A lot of this trail
mapping stuff came up due to people abusing the club permits (from
what I heard), so the club I am in voted to buy each member family a
family permit so we don't have to worry about all the stipulations on
the club permit. Personally I think if the state is having such a
problem with people abusing the permits maybe they should just stop
the club program and ask everyone to buy a family permit. At $20 a
year that is not an outrageous thing to ask. In return I would hope
they would step up enforcement, this would make both camps happy. All
club member and responsible offroaders have a permit and the state
starts cracking down on all the yahoos out there drinking, littering
and tearing up the trails.

44515 From: Hackle <hackle@q...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:59pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs

I agree with Doug what was started has gone well beyond anything we
expected. This is a (group) I am proud to be a member of. We have been
involved in clean-ups, go to the land use meetings, write letters, teach
tread lightly, and many do have membership in the ASA. I would agree with
Mike in that I would like to see more people join the ASA. But I have been
in clubs before (Heck I was the Conservation chairman for 2 years for the
ASA) I like what we have.
As far as the founders speaking out I feel my vote, word carries no more
then any other member. JMHO Jim Florence (not to hide behind a screen name:)

I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member. "Groucho
Marx"
Member of the original dirty half dozen.
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/index.htm/
http://www.rockrats.org/

-----Original Message-----
From: Hackle [mailto:hackle@q...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 5:48 PM
To: DougB
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs

I agree with Doug what was started has gone well beyond anything we
expected. This is a (group) I am proud to be a member of. We have been
involved in clean-ups, go to the land use meetings, write letters, teach
tread lightly, and many do have membership in the ASA. I would agree with
Mike in that I would like to see more people join the ASA. But I have been
in clubs before (Heck I was the Conservation chairman for 2 years for the
ASA) I like what we have.
As far as the founders speaking out I feel my vote, word carries no more
then any other member. JMHO Jim Florence (not to hide behind a screen name:)

I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member. "Groucho
Marx"
Member of the original dirty half dozen.
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/index.htm/
http://www.rockrats.org/

44516 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:53pm
Subject: Re: A free Ride... was something about organization...

You have to ask me? Call me any time!

Chris

> From: "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...>
> Reply-To: <arizonajeep@c...>
> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:51:13 -0700
> To: "'Eric Marble'" <emarble3@p...>, "'Brian Hill'"
> <brian@a...>, <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>, "'Chris Krieg'"
> <rv6a@m...>
> Subject: A free Ride... was something about organization...
>
> Speaking of the skys...
>
> If anyone is interested in taking a plane ride, let me know. I have lots of
> practicing to do, and I'd just as soon take someone with me as not. Shoot
> me an email if you'd like to take a flight over FJ or the lakes or your
> house (assuming it isn't in class B airspace <grin>).
>
> No charge... just fun. I have parachutes if you get scared.
> <evil grin>
>
> Joe
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Eric Marble [mailto:emarble3@p...]
>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:23 PM
>> To: Brian Hill; arizonajeep@c...; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com;
>> Chris Krieg
>> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>>
>>
>> Rumor has it Joe's going to take his reading program to the
>> skies to reach
>> more chillens.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
>> To: "Eric Marble" <EMarble3@p...>; "Brian Hill"
>> <brian@a...>; <arizonajeep@c...>;
>> <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:04 PM
>> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>>
>>
>>> LMAO!!
>>>
>>> Chris
>>>
>>>> From: "Eric Marble" <EMarble3@p...>
>>>> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:08:20 -0700
>>>> To: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>, <arizonajeep@c...>,
>>>> <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>, "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
>>>> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>>>>
>>>> If it wasn't for Joes Jeep how would the little ones
>> learn to read?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
>>>> To: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>; <arizonajeep@c...>;
>>>> <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:46 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> OK, that is way beyond what is called for!
>>>>> Do you know Joe and how many people he has helped? If
>> not, Shut the
>> hell
>>>> up!
>>>>> Joe has contibuted more to this group than a large
>> majority of the
>>>> members.
>>>>> He will drop what he is doing to help a fellow Jeeper.
>> The fact that
>> you
>>>>> don't know this shows your ignorance.
>>>>> Losing Joe would be a major asset loss for this group.
>> If you don't
>> know
>>>>> that, you have a long way to go.
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>
>>>>>> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:35:53 -0700
>>>>>> To: arizonajeep@c..., "'Chatfield, Mike'"
>> <Mike@A...>,
>>>>>> az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Promise?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:09 PM
>>>>>> To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not talking legal anything... I'm against ANYONE
>> who chooses to
>>>> divide
>>>>>> (shadow... whatever word you choose to use) the Arizona
>> Virtual Jeep
>>>> Club.
>>>>>> Unless you get a simple majority (1 vote greater than
>> half the current
>>>>>> membership count) voting for this shadow club... I will
>> believe that
>> it
>>>> was
>>>>>> the wrong thing to do. If you do manage to get a
>> simple majority for
>>>> this
>>>>>> new "real" club, I will believe that it was the right
>> thing for the
>> club
>>>> to
>>>>>> do... but the wrong thing for me... at which point I
>> will silently go
>>>> away.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm against it Mike, because I am all too familiar with the
>> divisiveness
>>>> of
>>>>>> "real" groups... Although you have put a great deal of
>> time into our
>>>> club
>>>>>> webpage, it does not authorize you to take our name and
>> give it to
>>>> another
>>>>>> group. Even the original six members voting for it
>> cannot authorize
>>>> this
>>>>>> change... there must be a majority vote for this to be
>> a fair and
>> honest
>>>>>> change.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The spirit of this club will change Mike... and there
>> is nothing you,
>> or
>>>>>> anyone else, will be able to do to stop it. We don't
>> need rules, or
>>>> bylaws,
>>>>>> or a board of directors and incorporation... You are
>> pressing for
>>>> change
>>>>>> which will ultimately redefine our group and I don't
>> want this to
>>>> happen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
>>>>>>> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
>>>>>>> entity) has legal
>>>>>>> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
>>>>>>> the AzVJC never
>>>>>>> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't
>>>>>>> own anything
>>>>>>> (including the copyrighted webpages).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just something to think about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want
>>>>>>> to be a part
>>>>>>> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
>>>>>>> unless YOU make
>>>>>>> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - Mike
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
>>>>>>> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a
>>>>>>> good idea for
>>>>>>> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the
>> AZVJC....
>>>>>>> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
>>>>>>> everyone's
>>>>>>> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The
>> new club must be
>>>>>>> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
>>>>>>> more than any
>>>>>>> other club currently is.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>>>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

44517 From: swaders7 <swaders7@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:00pm
Subject: Re: Axle swap wrenching party -Sun 9am

Hmmmm...get experience wrenching an a TJ or go for a run with the
group for the first time...decisions, decisions, decisions...

~Wade

--- In az_vjc@y..., "paparoach85251" <lespaparoach@m...> wrote:
> Hey everyone! Just wanted to let everyone know that we will be
> swapping my new Dana 44 into my TJ this Sunday at 9 am at Chris
> Krieg's house. Several of you had mentioned that you would be
willing
> to help out so here's your chance. Especially needed is someone
with
> lots of brake experience as we will be swapping the drums off my
old
> Dana 35 on to the new axle. I can provide refreshments for
everyone.
> Send me an email if you would like to help out and I can send you
> directions to Chris' house in Chandler.
> Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Les R

44518 From: <rlpii@q...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:06pm
Subject: Re: "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II

Guess I miss your point Clay. Not sure what track we lost, and there is no question that the bad apples are out there, some in organized and some in unorganized clubs or groups. My only point was that, IMO, the off roaders who do most of the damage to trails and the environment don't even read about, much less get involved in, land closure issues.
And, in my experience, this has always been a problem. I truly wish I had a good answer to the problem. The government's only response is to close the areas down and that is unfortunate in my view. At least in this forum we can be made aware of the potential issues and closures and contribute in whatever way we can.
Love to hear your stories . . . .:-)
Bob
74 CJ-5
Clay Forrester wrote:

I can match you story for story.......There are bad apples in every bunch.
Let's not lose track here.
Clay

-- Original Message -----
From: "Stu Olson"
To: "rlpeckii"
Cc: "az_vjc"
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:59 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II

> Bob,
>
> Very well said indeed! I have participated at land use meetings and at a
> BLM open forum, I addressed the land management individuals and said
> basically the very same thing (except for the part that I've bene wheelin'
> for 40 years.....man, you are SOOOO old!) (just kidding!)
>
> Again, very nicely stated!
>
> Timber Chucker!
>
>
> Stu Olson
> www.stu-offroad.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rlpeckii [mailto:rlpii@qwest.net]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:31 AM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II
>
>
> Well, I've read most of the recent posts regarding destroying trails
> and the need to belong to an organized club to help keep the trails
> open. I just can't keep it in any longer . . . .:-)
>
> I have been wheelin for over 40 years and for the past 4 years here in
> Arizona. We have some of the best, and most accessable, trails I have
> ever seen, and I have wheeled in California, Alaska, Colorado, Utah,
> Nevada, and of course in Arizona.
>
> Recently I attended an AZVJC run out to Box Canyon and Martinez
> Canyon. For me, this was the best wheelin yet. I found the members
> to be friendly, helpful, knowledgeable, and very concerned about the
> environment. I was proud to be wheelin with these folks . . .
>
> Unfortunately, there were other folks out on this trail too. One in
> particular was a well built "crawler" (looked like a modified Blazer
> without the body), who took it upon himself to go off the trails and
> run over bushes and trees to get by the slower vehicles. We also
> encountered a group of trucks that were drinking heavily (the drivers
> where actucally the ones that were doing the drinking) and pretty much
> tore up their vehicles and the trail. In addition, we encountered a
> lone pick-up truck that couldn't even make it up Box Canyon without
> being strapped up.
>
> I guess my point is that it is not the true "Jeepers" that we have
> worry about, it is these sudo Baja Racers and Rock Crawlers that don't
> read these posts (that would be assuming that they could read), they
> don't even know that lands are being closed, much less they probably
> don't care. Just look at what has happened to Sycamore Creek.
> Everytime I venture out there, I am amazed that it is still open.
>
> I have not seen any evidence that the members of AZVJC ever knowingly
> damage the trails or the environment. While a few may be slightly
> outspoken (grin). They do a lot for our sport/hobby and I only wish I
> had more time and resources to contribute.
>
> I had a few extra cents, so there they are . . .
>
> Keep on wheelin,
> Bob
> 74 CJ-5
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

44519 From: Robert Holmes <flamable_liquid@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:05pm
Subject: Re: State Land Use Permit

I read the below link but was wondering more about the family permit thingy,
Mostly if it covers more than one vehicle, How is family defined, extened
family, all live in same house, exc... Is there another place that I could
find out this information

>From: "azrckcrawler" <chris@a...>
>To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [az_vjc] State Land Use Permit
>Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 00:51:05 -0000
>
>There seems to be some confusion about the club permit. For those
>who would like to educate themselves go here:
>http://asa4wdc.org/wd/ . You will see the group permit only covers a
>limited number of club functions a month, which is fine IMO. If you
>four wheel every weekend (like I do) you really need to pick up a
>family permit for your own personal use. A lot of this trail
>mapping stuff came up due to people abusing the club permits (from
>what I heard), so the club I am in voted to buy each member family a
>family permit so we don't have to worry about all the stipulations on
>the club permit. Personally I think if the state is having such a
>problem with people abusing the permits maybe they should just stop
>the club program and ask everyone to buy a family permit. At $20 a
>year that is not an outrageous thing to ask. In return I would hope
>they would step up enforcement, this would make both camps happy. All
>club member and responsible offroaders have a permit and the state
>starts cracking down on all the yahoos out there drinking, littering
>and tearing up the trails.
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

~Robert Holmes

__________________________________________________ _______________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

44520 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:10pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs: Mike's response to DougB

> From: "az_jeeper_mike" <azvjc@a...>

<snip>

> However, Sandee mentioned that Individual memberships may be going
> away. With this in mind, that means in order for an individual to
> become a member of the ASA4WDC, he/she has to join a ASA4WDC Club.

Now, that is just wrong.

> So to answer the question about splitting, or 2 websites, 2 lists the
> answer is no. All this is, is an attempt to get more people to join
> ASA4WDC and United and get their Land Use Permits. If the end result
> is that we can do this without incorporation then I am 100% for it.

Then just say that. Don't complicate things more. Just get people to do the
right thing. Either way, some will, some won't. Just inform everybody of the
advantages to joining these fine organizations and most likely, they will.

Chris

44521 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:11pm
Subject: Re: "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II

The worst experience wheeling I ever had was with a group of Yahoos from an organized club. One dude started drinking tequila at 9am, and by 4pm he was sloshed out of his gourd, and rolled his rig. He was not seat belted in (nor was one of his passengers) and could have really hurt himself. The other guys were not a whole lot better. Needless to say, I was not impressed.

However, your point is well taken....there are bad wheelers in any group, unfortunately.

Doug

----- Original Message -----
From: rlpii@qwest.net
To: Clay Forrester
Cc: Stu Olson ; az_vjc
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:06 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II

Guess I miss your point Clay. Not sure what track we lost, and there is no question that the bad apples are out there, some in organized and some in unorganized clubs or groups. My only point was that, IMO, the off roaders who do most of the damage to trails and the environment don't even read about, much less get involved in, land closure issues.
And, in my experience, this has always been a problem. I truly wish I had a good answer to the problem. The government's only response is to close the areas down and that is unfortunate in my view. At least in this forum we can be made aware of the potential issues and closures and contribute in whatever way we can.
Love to hear your stories . . . .:-)
Bob
74 CJ-5
Clay Forrester wrote:

I can match you story for story.......There are bad apples in every bunch.
Let's not lose track here.
Clay

-- Original Message -----
From: "Stu Olson"
To: "rlpeckii"
Cc: "az_vjc"
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:59 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II

> Bob,
>
> Very well said indeed! I have participated at land use meetings and at a
> BLM open forum, I addressed the land management individuals and said
> basically the very same thing (except for the part that I've bene wheelin'
> for 40 years.....man, you are SOOOO old!) (just kidding!)
>
> Again, very nicely stated!
>
> Timber Chucker!
>
>
> Stu Olson
> www.stu-offroad.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rlpeckii [mailto:rlpii@qwest.net]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:31 AM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II
>
>
> Well, I've read most of the recent posts regarding destroying trails
> and the need to belong to an organized club to help keep the trails
> open. I just can't keep it in any longer . . . .:-)
>
> I have been wheelin for over 40 years and for the past 4 years here in
> Arizona. We have some of the best, and most accessable, trails I have
> ever seen, and I have wheeled in California, Alaska, Colorado, Utah,
> Nevada, and of course in Arizona.
>
> Recently I attended an AZVJC run out to Box Canyon and Martinez
> Canyon. For me, this was the best wheelin yet. I found the members
> to be friendly, helpful, knowledgeable, and very concerned about the
> environment. I was proud to be wheelin with these folks . . .
>
> Unfortunately, there were other folks out on this trail too. One in
> particular was a well built "crawler" (looked like a modified Blazer
> without the body), who took it upon himself to go off the trails and
> run over bushes and trees to get by the slower vehicles. We also
> encountered a group of trucks that were drinking heavily (the drivers
> where actucally the ones that were doing the drinking) and pretty much
> tore up their vehicles and the trail. In addition, we encountered a
> lone pick-up truck that couldn't even make it up Box Canyon without
> being strapped up.
>
> I guess my point is that it is not the true "Jeepers" that we have
> worry about, it is these sudo Baja Racers and Rock Crawlers that don't
> read these posts (that would be assuming that they could read), they
> don't even know that lands are being closed, much less they probably
> don't care. Just look at what has happened to Sycamore Creek.
> Everytime I venture out there, I am amazed that it is still open.
>
> I have not seen any evidence that the members of AZVJC ever knowingly
> damage the trails or the environment. While a few may be slightly
> outspoken (grin). They do a lot for our sport/hobby and I only wish I
> had more time and resources to contribute.
>
> I had a few extra cents, so there they are . . .
>
> Keep on wheelin,
> Bob
> 74 CJ-5
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

44522 From: Clay Forrester <allvol@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:10pm
Subject: Re: "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II

I think that a thread got crossed somewhere....I was responding to the Guy that say a "Extreme Rock Crawler" was knocking down buildings and running over small children and defenseless ground Squirrels with his rig. You are what they call a victim of near posting. :-) Sorry for the screw up.

Clay Forrester

----- Original Message -----
From: rlpii@qwest.net
To: Clay Forrester
Cc: Stu Olson ; az_vjc
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:06 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II

Guess I miss your point Clay. Not sure what track we lost, and there is no question that the bad apples are out there, some in organized and some in unorganized clubs or groups. My only point was that, IMO, the off roaders who do most of the damage to trails and the environment don't even read about, much less get involved in, land closure issues.
And, in my experience, this has always been a problem. I truly wish I had a good answer to the problem. The government's only response is to close the areas down and that is unfortunate in my view. At least in this forum we can be made aware of the potential issues and closures and contribute in whatever way we can.
Love to hear your stories . . . .:-)
Bob
74 CJ-5
Clay Forrester wrote:

I can match you story for story.......There are bad apples in every bunch.
Let's not lose track here.
Clay

-- Original Message -----
From: "Stu Olson"
To: "rlpeckii"
Cc: "az_vjc"
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:59 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II

> Bob,
>
> Very well said indeed! I have participated at land use meetings and at a
> BLM open forum, I addressed the land management individuals and said
> basically the very same thing (except for the part that I've bene wheelin'
> for 40 years.....man, you are SOOOO old!) (just kidding!)
>
> Again, very nicely stated!
>
> Timber Chucker!
>
>
> Stu Olson
> www.stu-offroad.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rlpeckii [mailto:rlpii@qwest.net]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:31 AM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II
>
>
> Well, I've read most of the recent posts regarding destroying trails
> and the need to belong to an organized club to help keep the trails
> open. I just can't keep it in any longer . . . .:-)
>
> I have been wheelin for over 40 years and for the past 4 years here in
> Arizona. We have some of the best, and most accessable, trails I have
> ever seen, and I have wheeled in California, Alaska, Colorado, Utah,
> Nevada, and of course in Arizona.
>
> Recently I attended an AZVJC run out to Box Canyon and Martinez
> Canyon. For me, this was the best wheelin yet. I found the members
> to be friendly, helpful, knowledgeable, and very concerned about the
> environment. I was proud to be wheelin with these folks . . .
>
> Unfortunately, there were other folks out on this trail too. One in
> particular was a well built "crawler" (looked like a modified Blazer
> without the body), who took it upon himself to go off the trails and
> run over bushes and trees to get by the slower vehicles. We also
> encountered a group of trucks that were drinking heavily (the drivers
> where actucally the ones that were doing the drinking) and pretty much
> tore up their vehicles and the trail. In addition, we encountered a
> lone pick-up truck that couldn't even make it up Box Canyon without
> being strapped up.
>
> I guess my point is that it is not the true "Jeepers" that we have
> worry about, it is these sudo Baja Racers and Rock Crawlers that don't
> read these posts (that would be assuming that they could read), they
> don't even know that lands are being closed, much less they probably
> don't care. Just look at what has happened to Sycamore Creek.
> Everytime I venture out there, I am amazed that it is still open.
>
> I have not seen any evidence that the members of AZVJC ever knowingly
> damage the trails or the environment. While a few may be slightly
> outspoken (grin). They do a lot for our sport/hobby and I only wish I
> had more time and resources to contribute.
>
> I had a few extra cents, so there they are . . .
>
> Keep on wheelin,
> Bob
> 74 CJ-5
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

44523 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:13pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs: Mike's response to DougB

Mike - instead of creating a shadow group, could we just create a link to
ASA and United on our 2 web sites for the payment of individual dues? Just a
thought.

Doug

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
To: "az_jeeper_mike" <azvjc@a...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs: Mike's response to DougB

> > From: "az_jeeper_mike" <azvjc@a...>
>
> <snip>
>
> > However, Sandee mentioned that Individual memberships may be going
> > away. With this in mind, that means in order for an individual to
> > become a member of the ASA4WDC, he/she has to join a ASA4WDC Club.
>
> Now, that is just wrong.
>
> > So to answer the question about splitting, or 2 websites, 2 lists the
> > answer is no. All this is, is an attempt to get more people to join
> > ASA4WDC and United and get their Land Use Permits. If the end result
> > is that we can do this without incorporation then I am 100% for it.
>
> Then just say that. Don't complicate things more. Just get people to do
the
> right thing. Either way, some will, some won't. Just inform everybody of
the
> advantages to joining these fine organizations and most likely, they will.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

44524 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:15pm
Subject: RE: "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II

Not in *our* group...

Oh... wait... I forgot those Arizona Axlebreaker guys...

Rotton apples... every last one of them!
;)

Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: DougB [mailto:azjeep@cox.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:11 PM
To: rlpii@uswest.net; Clay Forrester
Cc: Stu Olson; az_vjc
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II

The worst experience wheeling I ever had was with a group of Yahoos from an organized club. One dude started drinking tequila at 9am, and by 4pm he was sloshed out of his gourd, and rolled his rig. He was not seat belted in (nor was one of his passengers) and could have really hurt himself. The other guys were not a whole lot better. Needless to say, I was not impressed.

However, your point is well taken....there are bad wheelers in any group, unfortunately.

Dou

44525 From: Chatfield, Mike <Mike@A...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:14pm
Subject: AzVJC Mailing List Stats

I just exported the list into Excel to do some calculations because I was curious.

Of the 1022 supposed members of the Group List, there are currently only 897 (I'm guessing that Yahoo Groups still counts those that have dropped the list?)

So with that in mind:

Dropped from the List: 125
Elected to Receive NO E-Mail: 527
Elected to Receive Daily Digests: 111
Elected to Receive Individual E-Mails: 259

But I wonder how many of the "No E-Mail" actually come and read messages on the web.

- Mike

44526 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:18pm
Subject: [FS] Vendor Items Added

Hello Members of the AzVJC,
Jake has just added some items to the Classified section of the AzVJC Website that may be of interest to you. To see these items Click Here or goto the website classifieds and select 'Vendor' from the list.
Thank You,

- The AzVJC Website

44527 From: Bill Mish <yldkat55@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:27pm
Subject: Re: "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II

For the record, the Tequila drinker was NOT me! I haven't rolled yet, but the rest of the story sounds familiar....

Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B
----- Original Message -----
From: DougB
To: rlpii@uswest.net ; Clay Forrester
Cc: Stu Olson ; az_vjc
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:11 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II

The worst experience wheeling I ever had was with a group of Yahoos from an organized club. One dude started drinking tequila at 9am, and by 4pm he was sloshed out of his gourd, and rolled his rig. He was not seat belted in (nor was one of his passengers) and could have really hurt himself. The other guys were not a whole lot better. Needless to say, I was not impressed.

However, your point is well taken....there are bad wheelers in any group, unfortunately.

Doug

----- Original Message -----
From: rlpii@qwest.net
To: Clay Forrester
Cc: Stu Olson ; az_vjc
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:06 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II

Guess I miss your point Clay. Not sure what track we lost, and there is no question that the bad apples are out there, some in organized and some in unorganized clubs or groups. My only point was that, IMO, the off roaders who do most of the damage to trails and the environment don't even read about, much less get involved in, land closure issues.
And, in my experience, this has always been a problem. I truly wish I had a good answer to the problem. The government's only response is to close the areas down and that is unfortunate in my view. At least in this forum we can be made aware of the potential issues and closures and contribute in whatever way we can.
Love to hear your stories . . . .:-)
Bob
74 CJ-5
Clay Forrester wrote:

I can match you story for story.......There are bad apples in every bunch.
Let's not lose track here.
Clay

-- Original Message -----
From: "Stu Olson"
To: "rlpeckii"
Cc: "az_vjc"
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:59 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II

> Bob,
>
> Very well said indeed! I have participated at land use meetings and at a
> BLM open forum, I addressed the land management individuals and said
> basically the very same thing (except for the part that I've bene wheelin'
> for 40 years.....man, you are SOOOO old!) (just kidding!)
>
> Again, very nicely stated!
>
> Timber Chucker!
>
>
> Stu Olson
> www.stu-offroad.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rlpeckii [mailto:rlpii@qwest.net]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:31 AM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II
>
>
> Well, I've read most of the recent posts regarding destroying trails
> and the need to belong to an organized club to help keep the trails
> open. I just can't keep it in any longer . . . .:-)
>
> I have been wheelin for over 40 years and for the past 4 years here in
> Arizona. We have some of the best, and most accessable, trails I have
> ever seen, and I have wheeled in California, Alaska, Colorado, Utah,
> Nevada, and of course in Arizona.
>
> Recently I attended an AZVJC run out to Box Canyon and Martinez
> Canyon. For me, this was the best wheelin yet. I found the members
> to be friendly, helpful, knowledgeable, and very concerned about the
> environment. I was proud to be wheelin with these folks . . .
>
> Unfortunately, there were other folks out on this trail too. One in
> particular was a well built "crawler" (looked like a modified Blazer
> without the body), who took it upon himself to go off the trails and
> run over bushes and trees to get by the slower vehicles. We also
> encountered a group of trucks that were drinking heavily (the drivers
> where actucally the ones that were doing the drinking) and pretty much
> tore up their vehicles and the trail. In addition, we encountered a
> lone pick-up truck that couldn't even make it up Box Canyon without
> being strapped up.
>
> I guess my point is that it is not the true "Jeepers" that we have
> worry about, it is these sudo Baja Racers and Rock Crawlers that don't
> read these posts (that would be assuming that they could read), they
> don't even know that lands are being closed, much less they probably
> don't care. Just look at what has happened to Sycamore Creek.
> Everytime I venture out there, I am amazed that it is still open.
>
> I have not seen any evidence that the members of AZVJC ever knowingly
> damage the trails or the environment. While a few may be slightly
> outspoken (grin). They do a lot for our sport/hobby and I only wish I
> had more time and resources to contribute.
>
> I had a few extra cents, so there they are . . .
>
> Keep on wheelin,
> Bob
> 74 CJ-5
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

44528 From: J & P Visic <jpvisic@n...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:20pm
Subject: Re: [TR] Coke Ovens - Saturday, March 9, 2002

Robert,

I called the Phoenix Office as listed from a previous post. A lady named
Dawn was very helpful. She's going to send me an application for a family
permit via mail. I didn't ask the questions you did, but I think she could
help you.

John Visic
> Arizona State Land Department Offices (ASLD)
> www.land.state.az.us
> Main Office - Phoenix (602) 542-4631
> Tucson Office (520) 628-5480
> Flagstaff Office (928) 774-1425
>
>
> The above info was from http://www.azohv.com/ohv_info.html
>
> Joey K
> 93YJ w/gps
> www.desertjeep.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: hillb@s... [mailto:hillb@s...]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 2:43 PM
> To: macunasprint@e...
> Cc: AzVJC
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] [TR] Coke Ovens - Saturday, March 9, 2002
>
>
>
> Do I need a state land permit in order to do this run? I think I read
that
> as long as someone in the group has a permit, it would cover the entire
> group. Any truth to this??
>
> Ben
>
>
>
>
> AzVJC Website
> <azvjc@azvjc. To: AzVJC
> <az_vjc@YahooGroups.com>
> org> cc:
> Subject: [az_vjc] [TR] Coke
> Ovens - Saturday,
> 02/26/2002 March 9, 2002
> 11:34 PM
> Please
> respond to
> macunasprint
>
>
>
>
> Hello All,
>
>
> Mike Acuna is leading a Coke Ovens trail run on Saturday, March 9, 2002.
>
> When: Saturday March 9, 2002
> Where: Meet at the Texaco just past Florence Junction at 10:00am
> Rating: 2.5+
> Length: 4-6 hours
> CB Channel: 4
>
> We've always wanted to check out the Coke Ovens, but haven't yet.
>
> We've been through Box Canyon up to Martinez Cabin and are pretty
>
> sure we can find it. We have a GPS and a guide book too. If someone
>
> signs up who wants to lead that would be cool too. We would like
>
> to run Box Canyon to Coke Ovens.....then if there is still time
>
> we would like to run Battleaxe out to AZ177.
>
> The Coke Ovens Trail is an all day trip. It covers a lot of different
> countryside, traveling over and around the rolling hills and traverse some
> rocks and ledges in the road.
>
>
>
> Years ago the Coke Ovens were built to support some of the smelters at the
> nearby mines. It's a fairly common misconception that they made coke,
which
> is made from coal. However, they were built to make charcoal from the then
> more plentiful mesquite of the Gila Valley.
>
>
>
> Over the years they have been closed to the public numerous times and
> several have been used as "housing" for the hermits of the hills. At one
> point (so the story goes) an owner attempted to convert them into a type
of
> tourist resort - and started to make rooms out of them. You can still see
> the lofts he installed in some of them. This project was never finished.
>
>
>
> At this time we are able to see and explore these amazing creations. They
> are located on the side of a hill along the Gila River and are quite
> spectacular.
>
>
>
> Across the Gila is the old town site of Chochran. If the water is low,
> there is a river crossing to the west of Chochran that can be taken for an
> exit out to the Florence-Kelvin Highway
>
>
>
> This trail is definitely a favorite for all levels of 4-wheelers. Stock
> vehicles shouldn't have any problems although clearance is highly
> recommended. There are several areas of "rock stair steps" that will be a
> challenge to the novice or stock driver.
>
>
>
> Enjoy and remember to TREAD Lightly!
>
> Click Here To Add Your Name to the Sign Up List
>
>
> Thank You,
>
> - The AzVJC Website
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

44529 From: az_jeeper_mike <Mike@A...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:24pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs: Mike's response to DougB

Yea, but my original thought it to provide a one stop shop for
people. If we can get it done it would work something like this.

Member goes to the website, clicks a link, fills out a form, clicks
the "Submit" button then is taken to a PayPal site where he pays. On
the other end, someone else gets the info from the web, gets the
money from PayPal and sends the forms and the money off to the proper
agency. A week or so later, the member recieves his stuff in the
mail. With an incorporated club this become easier because we don't
have to negotiate with other agencies to allow us to do this, all we
do is send the info to ASA4WDC, no signatures to collect (at least
not that I can recall), nada.

Ideally, the "behind the scenes" individual would only have to send
stuff in once a month.

- Mike

--- In az_vjc@y..., "DougB" <azjeep@c...> wrote:
> Mike - instead of creating a shadow group, could we just create a
link to
> ASA and United on our 2 web sites for the payment of individual
dues? Just a
> thought.
>
> Doug

44530 From: Mark Mesalam <m_mesalam@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:32pm
Subject: RE: AzVJC Mailing List Stats

Mike, of the 111 and the 259, is there a list generated of the no good addresses? Or are they all good?

-----Original Message-----
From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@AzChatfield.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:14 PM
To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [az_vjc] AzVJC Mailing List Stats

I just exported the list into Excel to do some calculations because I was curious.

Of the 1022 supposed members of the Group List, there are currently only 897 (I'm guessing that Yahoo Groups still counts those that have dropped the list?)

So with that in mind:

Dropped from the List: 125

Elected to Receive NO E-Mail: 527

Elected to Receive Daily Digests: 111

Elected to Receive Individual E-Mails: 259

But I wonder how many of the "No E-Mail" actually come and read messages on the web.

- Mike

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

44531 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:31pm
Subject: Re: "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II

Now Bill, we just got over the yearly organization arguements. We don't need to start that drinking one again

:-)

Chris K

From: "Bill Mish"
Organization: Wildcat Off Road
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:27:53 -0700
To: , "Clay Forrester" , "DougB"
Cc: "Stu Olson" , "az_vjc"
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II

For the record, the Tequila drinker was NOT me! I haven't rolled yet, but the rest of the story sounds familiar....

Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B

----- Original Message -----
From: DougB
To: rlpii@uswest.net ; Clay Forrester
Cc: Stu Olson ; az_vjc
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:11 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II

The worst experience wheeling I ever had was with a group of Yahoos from an organized club. One dude started drinking tequila at 9am, and by 4pm he was sloshed out of his gourd, and rolled his rig. He was not seat belted in (nor was one of his passengers) and could have really hurt himself. The other guys were not a whole lot better. Needless to say, I was not impressed.

However, your point is well taken....there are bad wheelers in any group, unfortunately.

Doug

----- Original Message -----
From: rlpii@qwest.net
To: Clay Forrester
Cc: Stu Olson ; az_vjc
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:06 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II

Guess I miss your point Clay. Not sure what track we lost, and there is no question that the bad apples are out there, some in organized and some in unorganized clubs or groups. My only point was that, IMO, the off roaders who do most of the damage to trails and the environment don't even read about, much less get involved in, land closure issues.
And, in my experience, this has always been a problem. I truly wish I had a good answer to the problem. The government's only response is to close the areas down and that is unfortunate in my view. At least in this forum we can be made aware of the potential issues and closures and contribute in whatever way we can.
Love to hear your stories . . . .:-)
Bob
74 CJ-5

Clay Forrester wrote:

I can match you story for story.......There are bad apples in every bunch.
Let's not lose track here.

Clay

-- Original Message -----
From: "Stu Olson"
To: "rlpeckii"
Cc: "az_vjc"
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:59 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II

> Bob,
>
> Very well said indeed! I have participated at land use meetings and at a
> BLM open forum, I addressed the land management individuals and said
> basically the very same thing (except for the part that I've bene wheelin'
> for 40 years.....man, you are SOOOO old!) (just kidding!)
>
> Again, very nicely stated!
>
> Timber Chucker!
>
>
> Stu Olson
> www.stu-offroad.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rlpeckii [mailto:rlpii@qwest.net]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:31 AM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II
>
>
> Well, I've read most of the recent posts regarding destroying trails
> and the need to belong to an organized club to help keep the trails
> open. I just can't keep it in any longer . . . .:-)
>
> I have been wheelin for over 40 years and for the past 4 years here in
> Arizona. We have some of the best, and most accessable, trails I have
> ever seen, and I have wheeled in California, Alaska, Colorado, Utah,
> Nevada, and of course in Arizona.
>
> Recently I attended an AZVJC run out to Box Canyon and Martinez
> Canyon. For me, this was the best wheelin yet. I found the members
> to be friendly, helpful, knowledgeable, and very concerned about the
> environment. I was proud to be wheelin with these folks . . .
>
> Unfortunately, there were other folks out on this trail too. One in
> particular was a well built "crawler" (looked like a modified Blazer
> without the body), who took it upon himself to go off the trails and
> run over bushes and trees to get by the slower vehicles. We also
> encountered a group of trucks that were drinking heavily (the drivers
> where actucally the ones that were doing the drinking) and pretty much
> tore up their vehicles and the trail. In addition, we encountered a
> lone pick-up truck that couldn't even make it up Box Canyon without
> being strapped up.
>
> I guess my point is that it is not the true "Jeepers" that we have
> worry about, it is these sudo Baja Racers and Rock Crawlers that don't
> read these posts (that would be assuming that they could read), they
> don't even know that lands are being closed, much less they probably
> don't care. Just look at what has happened to Sycamore Creek.
> Everytime I venture out there, I am amazed that it is still open.
>
> I have not seen any evidence that the members of AZVJC ever knowingly
> damage the trails or the environment. While a few may be slightly
> outspoken (grin). They do a lot for our sport/hobby and I only wish I
> had more time and resources to contribute.
>
> I had a few extra cents, so there they are . . .
>
> Keep on wheelin,
> Bob
> 74 CJ-5
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service .

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service .

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service .

44532 From: jimmy lambertus <jeepnazus@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:32pm
Subject: Re: Organize, NOT!!

--- It sounds to me like all Mike really wants is to
make it easier for the 1000 or so members to
contribute to our sport and be recognized as the
entity that the AZVJC has become (organized or not ).
Now if everyone would put as much effort into
accomplishing that as they have into *****ing about
becomming incorporated we might find a solution.I have
heard alot of comments about joining a real club well
the reason I joined this club is because I dont want
to be governed by someone else,but times they are a
changing and the greenies are becomming more and more
influencial in closeing our lands.There are alot of
people in this club who dont contribute to the cause
because they dont know about it.I have a headache now
from reading all of this nonproductive banter so I
will stop. Lets all get together this weekend and
discuss this by the campfire and find a solution.
Jim (Crusher) Lambertus Baja Fleg
<fleigle@h...> wrote:
> Mike
> The current AZVJC membership is at 1023. So to get
> your AZVJC inc. plan
> approved you would need to get 512 yes votes, right
> now you have 13. If you
> can 512 HONEST yes votes then even I would have to
> agree it was the right
> thing to do. You know that if press this much
> farther your only going to
> start a war among us then the only people you will
> really be helping is the
> Eco Nazis. Lets all stand back and give Mike his
> week, he only needs 499
> yes votes.
>
> Michael
>
>
__________________________________________________ _______________
> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device:
> http://mobile.msn.com
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

__________________________________________________
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44533 From: Chatfield, Mike <Mike@A...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:32pm
Subject: RE: AzVJC Mailing List Stats

All of those are good. If they go bad, they get dropped and added to the "Bouncing" list.

- Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Mesalam [mailto:m_mesalam@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:32 PM
To: Chatfield, Mike; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] AzVJC Mailing List Stats

Mike, of the 111 and the 259, is there a list generated of the "no good" addresses? Or are they all good?

-----Original Message-----
From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@AzChatfield.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:14 PM
To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [az_vjc] AzVJC Mailing List Stats

I just exported the list into Excel to do some calculations because I was curious.

Of the 1022 supposed members of the Group List, there are currently only 897 (I'm guessing that Yahoo Groups still counts those that have dropped the list?)

So with that in mind:

Dropped from the List: 125

Elected to Receive NO E-Mail: 527

Elected to Receive Daily Digests: 111

Elected to Receive Individual E-Mails: 259

But I wonder how many of the "No E-Mail" actually come and read messages on the web.

- Mike

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

44534 From: Eric Marble <emarble3@p...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:45pm
Subject: Re: "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II

if your not the Tequila drinker, what's that straw that comes out of the back of your bandana? Hmmmmm
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Mish
To: rlpii@uswest.net ; Clay Forrester ; DougB
Cc: Stu Olson ; az_vjc
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II

For the record, the Tequila drinker was NOT me! I haven't rolled yet, but the rest of the story sounds familiar....

Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B
----- Original Message -----
From: DougB
To: rlpii@uswest.net ; Clay Forrester
Cc: Stu Olson ; az_vjc
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:11 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II

The worst experience wheeling I ever had was with a group of Yahoos from an organized club. One dude started drinking tequila at 9am, and by 4pm he was sloshed out of his gourd, and rolled his rig. He was not seat belted in (nor was one of his passengers) and could have really hurt himself. The other guys were not a whole lot better. Needless to say, I was not impressed.

However, your point is well taken....there are bad wheelers in any group, unfortunately.

Doug

----- Original Message -----
From: rlpii@qwest.net
To: Clay Forrester
Cc: Stu Olson ; az_vjc
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 6:06 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II

Guess I miss your point Clay. Not sure what track we lost, and there is no question that the bad apples are out there, some in organized and some in unorganized clubs or groups. My only point was that, IMO, the off roaders who do most of the damage to trails and the environment don't even read about, much less get involved in, land closure issues.
And, in my experience, this has always been a problem. I truly wish I had a good answer to the problem. The government's only response is to close the areas down and that is unfortunate in my view. At least in this forum we can be made aware of the potential issues and closures and contribute in whatever way we can.
Love to hear your stories . . . .:-)
Bob
74 CJ-5
Clay Forrester wrote:

I can match you story for story.......There are bad apples in every bunch.
Let's not lose track here.
Clay

-- Original Message -----
From: "Stu Olson"
To: "rlpeckii"
Cc: "az_vjc"
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:59 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II

> Bob,
>
> Very well said indeed! I have participated at land use meetings and at a
> BLM open forum, I addressed the land management individuals and said
> basically the very same thing (except for the part that I've bene wheelin'
> for 40 years.....man, you are SOOOO old!) (just kidding!)
>
> Again, very nicely stated!
>
> Timber Chucker!
>
>
> Stu Olson
> www.stu-offroad.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rlpeckii [mailto:rlpii@qwest.net]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:31 AM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II
>
>
> Well, I've read most of the recent posts regarding destroying trails
> and the need to belong to an organized club to help keep the trails
> open. I just can't keep it in any longer . . . .:-)
>
> I have been wheelin for over 40 years and for the past 4 years here in
> Arizona. We have some of the best, and most accessable, trails I have
> ever seen, and I have wheeled in California, Alaska, Colorado, Utah,
> Nevada, and of course in Arizona.
>
> Recently I attended an AZVJC run out to Box Canyon and Martinez
> Canyon. For me, this was the best wheelin yet. I found the members
> to be friendly, helpful, knowledgeable, and very concerned about the
> environment. I was proud to be wheelin with these folks . . .
>
> Unfortunately, there were other folks out on this trail too. One in
> particular was a well built "crawler" (looked like a modified Blazer
> without the body), who took it upon himself to go off the trails and
> run over bushes and trees to get by the slower vehicles. We also
> encountered a group of trucks that were drinking heavily (the drivers
> where actucally the ones that were doing the drinking) and pretty much
> tore up their vehicles and the trail. In addition, we encountered a
> lone pick-up truck that couldn't even make it up Box Canyon without
> being strapped up.
>
> I guess my point is that it is not the true "Jeepers" that we have
> worry about, it is these sudo Baja Racers and Rock Crawlers that don't
> read these posts (that would be assuming that they could read), they
> don't even know that lands are being closed, much less they probably
> don't care. Just look at what has happened to Sycamore Creek.
> Everytime I venture out there, I am amazed that it is still open.
>
> I have not seen any evidence that the members of AZVJC ever knowingly
> damage the trails or the environment. While a few may be slightly
> outspoken (grin). They do a lot for our sport/hobby and I only wish I
> had more time and resources to contribute.
>
> I had a few extra cents, so there they are . . .
>
> Keep on wheelin,
> Bob
> 74 CJ-5
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

44535 From: Matt <wishmaaker@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:37pm
Subject: Re: Re: Note from author of "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers"

I've made my statement, I do not wish to continue this any further. As
for piss and moaning, I have not engaged you in this issue since this
morning when I made my initial comment which by the way contained not a
single derogatory comment, yet you persist to engage me in a negative
fashion. Which is just another reason not to join your type of
organization.

Thank you

~machew

--- Clay Forrester <allvol@c...> wrote:
> If YOU do not go to land issue meetings and are not a member of ANY
> origination, nor go to ANY clean-ups.....That warm cushy feeling YOU
> have
> about 4-wheelin' is only good for YOU.....no one else. And btw, the
> rules of
> public land use apply to YOU the same as it does for clubs........
> All this
> pissing and moaning for a lousy 25 bucks a year.....Geeeessse!
>
> Clay Forrester
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "wishmaaker" <wishmaaker@y...>
> To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 10:23 PM
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Note from author of "Nearly Jeepers..Trail
> Destroyers"
>
>
> > You know lately it seems that a lot of folks are getting the kicks
> > addressing the AzVjc in a
> > negative way. I don't think a lot of these people come to the
> table
> > with enough knowledge about
> > the group to even suggest that we do nothing to preserve our Az
> public
> > lands. I have only been a
> > member since Nov., when I purchased my TJ, and yet I feel that I
> have
> > learned so much not only
> > about my jeeps and what it can do with it, but what I can do to
> > protect and preserve public and
> > blm lands . You don't have to be a paid (voted in) member to any
> > such club to make a
> > difference. A lot of clubs use the AzVjc 1400+ members to voice
> and
> > action many events that
> > make a difference to protect our rights to use public land. I have
> > lived in Arizona on and off for
> > the last 15 years and have seen many closures. Its going to be
> tough
> > to keeps the last bit of
> > unclosed trails open, weather your a voted member or not, its going
> to
> > take everyone to protect
> > our resources. I am proud to be a part of this group of
> un-organized
> > organization.
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Clay Forrester" <allvol@c...> wrote:
> > > I agree.....I agree. But I hope that you understood my point
> also. I
> > was not
> > > thinking about it and I did provide my email address. Also, I
> think
> > that I'm
> > > the only black Scrambler in town with "Scramzilla" painted on the
> > hood. :-)
> > > I'm easy to see.
> > >
> > > Clay Forrester
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...>
> > > To: "Clay Forrester" <allvol@c...>; "Scott Kruize"
> > > <scottkruize@e...>; <az_vjc@y...>; "Eric Marble"
> > > <emarble3@p...>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 9:28 PM
> > > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Note from author of "Nearly Jeepers..Trail
> > Destroyers"
> > >
> > >
> > > > Clay,
> > > >
> > > > On line forums are a dime a dozen....and nameless keyboard
> cowboys
> > that
> > > post
> > > > on them are even more common. I normally pay them as much
> > attention as
> > > the
> > > > moron neighbor that lives down the street.
> > > >
> > > > If you have something worth saying, you have nothing to loose,
> > IMO, if you
> > > > back up your message with a name.
> > > >
> > > > If you can't get by that, then maybe you are wasting my time.
> > Yes, the
> > > gate
> > > > does swing both ways.
> > > >
> > > > Stu
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Stu Olson
> > > > www.stu-offroad.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Clay Forrester [mailto:allvol@c...]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 9:15 PM
> > > > To: Scott Kruize; az_vjc@y...; Stu Olson; Eric Marble
> > > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Note from author of "Nearly
> Jeepers..Trail
> > > > Destroyers"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yeah....If they can't get by me not putting my real
> name.......I
> > might as
> > > > well quit wasting my time. Geeeessseee!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Clay Forrester
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Eric Marble" <emarble3@p...>
> > > > To: "Scott Kruize" <scottkruize@e...>; <az_vjc@y...>;
> > > > "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 9:21 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Note from author of "Nearly
> Jeepers..Trail
> > > Destroyers"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I thought everyone knew Scramzilla.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...>
> > > > > To: "Scott Kruize" <scottkruize@e...>; <az_vjc@y...>
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 9:10 PM
> > > > > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Note from author of "Nearly
> Jeepers..Trail
> > > > Destroyers"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > I mentioned this to another person earlier this week,
> > Scott.....a lot
> > > of
> > > > > > talk from behind some screen name.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Basically, I view it as spam crap. It hits the bit bucket
> > with a
> > > touch
> > > > of
> > > > > > the delete key just as fast as the unwanted mortgage
> refinance
> > junk.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If this irritates someone who feels compelled to use a
> screen
> > name
> > > > instead
> > > > > > of their real one....well, that is your option and I am
> just
> > > exercising
> > > > > mine
> > > > > > as I right this. ;) Life will go on.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Timber Chucker!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Stu Olson
> > > > > > www.stu-offroad.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Scott Kruize [mailto:scottkruize@e...]
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 8:57 PM
> > > > > > To: scramzilla; az_vjc@y...
> > > > > > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Note from author of "Nearly
> > Jeepers..Trail
> > > > > > Destroyers"
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I agree with you completely. One hint though...your post
> would
> > be much
> > > > > more
> > > > > > credible if you poasted your real name on it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Scott K
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: scramzilla [mailto:allvol@c...]
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 1:34 PM
> > > > > > To: az_vjc@y...
> > > > > > Subject: [az_vjc] Note from author of "Nearly
> Jeepers..Trail
> > > Destroyers"
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Pulse found on dead horse!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > OK folks, I'm the guy who wrote the "Nearly
> Jeepers....Trail
> > > > > > Destroyers" note. Although I did not link it to this group,
> (I
> > did not
> > > > > > know where it was) I'm glad somebody posted it. Now, I've
> read
> > most of
> > > > > > the messages and other than the Penis size fetish that this
> > board has,
> > > > > > and the over use of the phrase; "Dead horse," most of the
> > discussion
> > > > > > has been informative. Now with that being said, I'd like to
> > address
> > > > > > some of the other comments about the post and leave
> > > > > > the......ahhhhhh........errrrrrrrr "other stuff" behind.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My message was intended to drive home the fact that NOT
> every
> > trail,
> > > > > > is for everybody. BUT, if you absolutely must go on a trail
> > that is
> > > > > > MILES above your Jeeps capability and driving skill, leave
> the
> > trail
> > > > > > the way you found it!.....Its' that simple folks. Now I
> have
> > read some
> > > > > > posts that say the same thing and I applaud you. I like to
> > drive on
> > > > > > many types of trails......whatever mood I'm in dictates the
> > trail that
> > > > > > I will run....but here's the kicker; I can run then all!
> Yep!
> > That's
> > > > > > right. I built a rig that can go from 5+ to a 1. I had
> another
> > Jeep
> > > > > > that could not do the extreme trails so I built one that
> > > > > > could.......because that's what I liked most.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here is the issue at hand with me in regards to the lesser
> > equipped
> > > > > > and inexperienced wheelers. Why in the world would I spend
> > tons of
> > > > > > money on my rig to make it bullet proof and make it capable
> of
> > doing
> > > > > > the extreme trails only to have it wiped out by a different
> > class of
> > > > > > rigs that only desire to bring it down to "their" level of
> > > > > > capability????? Why waste the time and money? I could just
> > wait till
> > > > > > (someone else) finds the new trail. Finds the entrances and
> > exits and
> > > > > > map it all out for me so I can get a few of my buds with
> > hammers, crow
> > > > > > bars and RR-cross ties and turn a 4/5 trail into a 2/3
> trail
> > so "I"
> > > > > > could run it..........That's not right folks!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now as far as my "Keep your mouth shut" phrase with regards
> to
> > "not
> > > > > > tell everyone" where the new trails are.......U-betcha!
> It's
> > not gonna
> > > > > > happen. Like some of you have said. "I can go on any trail
> I
> > > > > > want."....Yep! That's right. I can't stop you but you'll
> have
> > to find
> > > > > > them first. When is the last time you heard of a new
> trail????
> > There
> > > > > > are TONS of new trails out there but the word is no longer
> > getting
> > > > > > out.....mostly due to the fact that lesser equipped rigs
> are
> > > > > > DESTROYING THEM! (bypasses ect) If you ever had to help
> drag a
> > burnt
> > > > > > out bone stock Jeep off an extreme trail that some yahoo
> left
> > > > > > there.....maybe you would respect the rating system a
> little
> > more.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Oh, one more thing. There is NO better friend to have than
> > someone
> > > > > > with an "Extreme rig" on trail that you just happen to be
> on.
> > We have
> > > > > > air tanks. On board welders. almost every imaginable tool
> at
> > parts to
> > > > > > fix almost every imaginable break. I even carry parts that
> fit
> > other
> > > > > > peoples rigs just in case I could be of some help to
> someone.
> > It's a
> > > > > > great feeling to help a total stranger get out of a
> hopeless
> > situation
> > > > > > with no expectation of reward.....I'm happy to help.
> > BUT......After
> > > > > > what just happened to the "Highway to Hell" trail, my heart
> is
> > just
> > > > > > not into like it once was.....
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'll get off my soap box not but just remember, there are a
> > LOT of
> > > > > > Jeepers in AZ. that spend TONS of money, go to land issue
> > meeting to
> > > > > > keep the trails open and love to wheel and camp with our
> dogs
> > and
> > > > > > family just like you do.......But we also like to go on
> trails
> > that
> > > > > > make us feel justified in the time and expense that we
> > incurred
> > > > > > building what we are proud to call our own creation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Scramzilla
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
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> > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
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> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
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> > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> > > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
>

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