blooddrive
01-04-2004, 02:09 PM
44486-44510
44486 From: Brian Hill <brian@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:59pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
On that Joe, I agree with you all the way...
~B~
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:48 PM
To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
By the way people... lest you forget; I REALLY like Mike. He's done an
incredible amount of work for this group and his web page is second to none.
Mike knows, as I know, that this really is just a difference of opinion...
it is how things in a healthy society work... it is how things in a healthy
society should work. Debate and discussion followed by change if it is
necessary, and no change if it is not.
Our founding fathers would be impressed!
<grin>
Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:06 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > the reason I'm against this is because anytime you make rules,
>
> No rules.. that is what are by-laws are going to say "There Are No
> Rules." (well actually just the ones that ALREADY EXIST and are
> POSTED ON THE WEBSITE)
>
>
> > put people in positions of authority over other people... or a
> > group of people, things change.
>
> Hmmm, things change, eh? I've been the webmaster for what almost 2
> years? And the group moderator for about a year? What things have
> you seen change other than added features (OPTIONS) to the website?
> Could I be abusive with my powers? You bet I could, but I am not. I
> have not once removed a member from either the list or the website
> without THEM asking me to do so. So you see someone already is
> in "position of authority" as you put it.
>
> Once again let me reiterate, this is about an OPTION pure and simple.
> If you think that by not voluntarily paying dues, that this means
> that you're not part of the AzVJC then by the same token if you're
> not using every single feature of the AzVJC website you're not part
> of the AzVJC. And I have yet to see your Rig in the Whoops section. ;)
>
> - Mike
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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44487 From: Clay Forrester <allvol@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:52pm
Subject: Re: Re: Thanks (more)
It's true.
Clay Forrester
----- Original Message -----
From: Ross Skinner
To: AZVJC (E-mail)
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:48 AM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Thanks (more)
On one of the pervious threads someone mentioned that the clubs were limited to two runs a month on state lands...maybe that is not true but I would not be surprised if it is.
-----Original Message-----
From: Fred [mailto:fredtj@home.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:49 AM
Cc: AZVJC (E-mail)
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Thanks (more)
Did I miss something (obviously), as this "Thanks" thread got long, so I didn't read the last several hundred ;)
Anyway *what* State Limitations are we talking about ??
Cheers,
Fred
Ross Skinner wrote:
After hearing some of the LIMITATIONS being placed upon the clubs by theState and I am sure the Feds are not far behind...I am alarmed...who in thehell rolled over and let themselves be boxed in like that. You are notusing state lands for profit...where is there an ordinance allowing themthat kind of control?If you don't think this is not a methodical effort to get your accessultimately removed or severely limited ...lets say one run a quarter..I havea bridge to sell you.Yes, clubs can be fun and can focus activism to better influencebureaucrats, but, it is looking like the usual closed cliques (you know,care more, know more, better, smarter and so on) are forming and are doingthings that may not be in the best interest of our use of our lands. Again,I am not sure of this but it seems to be a consistent outcome of groups likethis. Now it is our responsibility as independents to do things and say thingsthat represent a broader reality of our desires then what some smallcliquish clubs think.This has been an interesting discussion.Ross-----Original Message-----From: Clay Forrester [mailto:allvol@cox.net]Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:07 AMTo: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; akamofoeSubject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Thanks (more)What will end up happing is that your land (private property) would be thelast to go.....that's all. The rest of the public State land and the rest ofthe country would lose theirs. I for one do not want to go wheelin' in thesame area over and over and over................Do you? If we lose theclubs, we lose it allClay----- Original Message -----From: "akamofoe" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 10:17 PMSubject: [az_vjc] Re: Thanks (more)
I've been wheel'n for more than 20 years now and have never been amember of a club that collects dues. It's always been a good group offriends, their friends, etc.. Don't get me wrong, I agree that thoseclubs (or organizations) that are collecting money (I mean dues) areusing them for good purposes, keeping our lands open.But I had an Idea. Why don't we get together and start a non-profitorganization, collect donations (tax deductible), contact a couple ofthe Big Three Dealers, some Magazines, etc.. With all thosecontributions we could go out and purchase our own land and open ourown OHV area. Select a couple of area groups to head a panel tooversee OUR LANDS.Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
44488 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:56pm
Subject: [FS] Rear Spare Tire Holder
Price: $25.00
Contact: Kevin Kilroy
For sale a spare tire carrier for the rear tailgate. T.J. Only.....Contact email at EvilWarlock@aaahawk.com
Kevin Kilroy
44489 From: <flyboy0417@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 10:58am
Subject: Torque modifications?
What are some torque mods i can do for under 400 bucks? Thanks a bunch.
Bryan
44490 From: jetowle2000 <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:00pm
Subject: Re: Torque modifications?
What vehicle, year & so on?
--James
--- In az_vjc@y..., flyboy0417@a... wrote:
> What are some torque mods i can do for under 400 bucks? Thanks a
bunch.
>
> Bryan
44491 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:07pm
Subject: [TR] Morgan City/Cedar Basin Road - Saturday, March 16, 2002
Hello All,
Doug Olson is leading a Morgan City/Cedar Basin Road trail run on Saturday, March 16, 2002.
When: 1:00 pm
Where: SE corner of I17 and Carefree Rd.
Rating: 2.5
Length: 5 hours
CB Channel: 14
Run Morgan City/Cedar Basin Road from north to south. Potluck dinner at ~6:00 pm at Lake Pleasant picnic area (entry fee required). Campfire with marshmallows and s'mores.
This trip is intended for families with children:
- Relatively easy, scenic trail for beginners in stock vehicles.
- Bring meat to grill and non-alcoholic beverages for your family.
- Bring a side dish or dessert to share with others.
- Bring tablecloths, plates, utensils, chairs etc. as desired.
I will bring charcoal, lighter fluid, matches, firewood and stuff for s'mores.
I am familiar with the trail but not the picnic area. Please contact me if you can give recommendations on the picnic areas.
Trail runs on the west side of Hell's Canyon Wilderness west of Lake Pleasant. First part of trail is easy driving in 4WD high on fine gravel with occasional rocks in the wash. After ~7 miles, at a windmill (33* 55.049', 112* 24.948') the trail climbs out of the wash to the north east and provides scenic views of Hell's Canyon Wilderness to the east. Next 5 miles is a little more challenging (hill climbs, ruts and minor washouts but negligile brush or off-camber)with a mix of 4WD high and low driving. Trail intersects with Castle Hot Springs Road again at 33* 58.275', 112* 25.957'
Click Here To Add Your Name to the Sign Up List
Thank You,
- The AzVJC Website
44492 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:06pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
Well...currently, I'm paying U4WDA and ASA dues and also paying for a State
License....so I don't see much of a problem in paying dues instead. However,
there are a number of unanswered questions on this. I've only just begun to
read all the responses....and yes Joe...I DO have a meeting tonight :o) so
I'm not sure I'll be catching up on this huge thread until late tonite.
Personally, I've been a big advocate of keeping things loose and not going
the org. route. I think that AzVJC has created a very unique and fantastic
(IMO) environment for the discussion of issues, doing runs, clean ups, Jeep
building stuff...etc, etc. I know of no club (except perhaps the Tucson
Rough Riders) that has done more in terms of organized events (clean ups,
BLM meetings, trail repair, etc). It's been absolutely fantastic when you
think about what we started with. It's really been more of a vehicle for
organizing different things (like runs, build ups, clean ups) than it is an
organization in itself.
However, I also understand the desire to have a loose organization, and the
fact that we've become HUGE. I've also been bothered (maybe it's just me) by
people that come along and drop a bomb and split (the 'you guys at AzVJC'
stuff). Course, that comes with the territory I suppose. Also, the volume of
e-mail has become very large, and I use the delete key a lot more than I
used to....It would, however, be a great shame to loose the spirit of AzVJC
by having a divided group.
As far as having a voice in ASA, while that would be fine well and good, and
beneficial, it's action that really counts...writing letters, attending
meetings, etc. I know at one BLM meeting I attended, half the pro trails
group was from AzVJC...so the argument that we need to be organized to be
affective doesn't hold a lot of water, IMO. However, there are always ways
that we can become more affective.
Mike...I realize you've given this some thought, and before I add too much
to the fray, I'd like to know how it would be proposed to operate in terms
of communication (maybe you've answered these things and I just haven't
gotten to them yet). Would there be 2 separate lists? 2 web sites? 2 trail
lists, secret handshake :o) etc. Not sure I completely understand the
function of the shadow AzJC...
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "az_jeeper_mike" <Mike@A...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:53 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> This is exactly what I mean. IF you want to participate then do so
> (pay your dues, get the ASA4WDC membership, United Membership, and
> Land Use Permit), IF you do not want to participate then don't (no
> different than what you have now)
>
> - Mike
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe Kearney" <joe@j...> wrote:
> > If someone chooses not o participate then it would be just like the
> > club was before, no problem.
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44493 From: <mbailey345@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 11:10am
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
Mike,
If you want to get in the legally and technically side of this arguement,
then what legally happens is any non-paying member can only go on 1 or 2 runs
a year with the paying club.
So technically, I don't think this is going to work. It sounds nice, but it
is doomed to fail. I keep hearing how people don't like organized clubs,
basically because of the ego's and splits and BS etc. etc.
etc...............................
Take a look at what we have here, splits, ego's, BS
etc............................
Don,t get me wrong, I think an organized club, done right has more benefits
than disorganized cluds.
Keep up the good work. Remember, if the eco warriors have thier way, the only
way you'll get to go offroad is by virtual tours, hence , you'll be the real
"virtual jeep club"
Mike
44494 From: dthorton_2000 <dt_horton@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:15pm
Subject: Re: Magazine Subscription at Expo
I subscribed to 4wd & Sport Utility (already have JP 'til 04) at the
Truckin' Nationals <- (lame!) in October. I just got my first issue
this month. BTW they have the same publisher.
Veeerrry Slow!
Dan
--- In az_vjc@y..., Gary Holmes <niitoyis@w...> wrote:
> Group:
>
> Did anyone besides me get sucked into a magazine
subscription (in my
> case to JP) as the Expo when they gave you a knife set as a gift
for
> signing up? I have yet to receive the magazine and was
wondering if I
> was the exception or the rule here.
>
> Gary Holmes
44495 From: Baja Fleg <fleigle@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:17pm
Subject: Organize, NOT!!
Mike
The current AZVJC membership is at 1023. So to get your AZVJC inc. plan
approved you would need to get 512 yes votes, right now you have 13. If you
can 512 HONEST yes votes then even I would have to agree it was the right
thing to do. You know that if press this much farther your only going to
start a war among us then the only people you will really be helping is the
Eco Nazis. Lets all stand back and give Mike his week, he only needs 499
yes votes.
Michael
__________________________________________________ _______________
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44496 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:17pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
I disagree with you there, Mike. While it may be possible legally to take
the name for another group, it would still be wrong. I recall when someone
(can't recall who) got pissed off and started a second AzVJC. I protested it
then as being tacky and wrong. Didn't care about setting up another club,
but suggested that they not steal the name. I think they fizzled out anyway.
I don't think your necessarily proposing this...but just want to voice my
opinion on it.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non entity) has legal
> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it, the AzVJC
never
> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't own anything
> (including the copyrighted webpages).
>
> Just something to think about.
>
> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want to be a part
> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change unless YOU make
> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
>
> - Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a good idea
for
> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without everyone's
> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any more than any
> other club currently is.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44497 From: Bill Mish <yldkat55@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:32pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
Actually, Joe, I think he was calling YOU that!
Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...>
To: "'az_jeeper_mike'" <azvjc@a...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:43 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> Fureak?
>
> Is that the name of your new club?
> <grin>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:55 PM
> > To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> > My point once again is that this IS NOT ABOUT CHANGING THE AZVJC. It
> > is about GIVING AZVJC MEMBERS the OPTION to join ASA4WDC, United and
> > get a State Land Use Permit at a DISCOUNTED price ($5 off).
> >
> > My freaking goodness people, you're acting like we're going to come
> > in your house and put a meter on your computer and charge you
> > everytime you hit the AzVJC website.
> >
> > Fureak!
> >
> > - Mike
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "rlpeckii" <rlpii@q...> wrote:
> > > Mike,
> > > I think what Joe is saying is that it is OK to create a new club,
> > > just don't "affiliate" it with the AZVJC.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
44498 From: Rick <ricknhall@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:26pm
Subject: Re: Organize, NOT!!
Okay, I have seen this voting logic mentioned twice now and I still am not
sure what country it is that bases decisions on a percentage of the populous
and not a percentage of the number of people who voted. If the USA was run
that way no election would ever be decided because there would never be
enough votes to win anything. I am not advocating which way to vote only
that the results of a vote are always based on the number of VOTES not the
number of people that could vote.
Rick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Baja Fleg" <fleigle@h...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 5:17 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Organize, NOT!!
> Mike
> The current AZVJC membership is at 1023. So to get your AZVJC inc. plan
> approved you would need to get 512 yes votes, right now you have 13. If
you
> can 512 HONEST yes votes then even I would have to agree it was the right
> thing to do. You know that if press this much farther your only going to
> start a war among us then the only people you will really be helping is
the
> Eco Nazis. Lets all stand back and give Mike his week, he only needs 499
> yes votes.
>
> Michael
>
> __________________________________________________ _______________
> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44499 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:28pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
The club was started in '98 by a posting to the Jeep+Willys' NG.
Communicated back and forth on the NG and started discussing Az Jeep stuff,
trails etc. The first run was actually not Crown King, but Mt. Ord (Dan Weed
and myself). Dan and I got to talking about setting something up with the
group we were communicating with on the NG, and so we posted the Crown King
run were we had about 6 or so do the run. At the CK Saloon we spoke about
and decided to set up a loose internet based club, to discuss runs, Jeep
stuff, trails, etc. DanW set up the listserv and JimL set up the first web
site.The driving force behind the concept was really just a group of guys
wanting to do runs together. It grew from there to a really fantastic forum
or many things. I'm sure that none of us ever dreamed it would get this big.
In short, it surpassed all of our expectations...and is the best
organization (unorganized as it is) that I've ever experienced.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Kearney" <joe@j...>
To: "Ross Skinner" <rskinner@s...>; "AZVJC (E-mail)"
<az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:54 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> I have asked Doug that exact same question.
>
> I would like to hear what he and the other 5 originals say.
>
>
> Joe Kearney
> Joe@J...
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ross Skinner [mailto:rskinner@s...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:36 PM
> To: AZVJC (E-mail)
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
> Whirlwind in a teapot.....thats all this is as usual. Mike, start a
> club...fine, have fun.. leave this thing alone, the only folks I believe
> have a say are the ones that founded it...even though you do alot for
> it...they really have "ownership" of this. Using what they did to create
> another AZVJC does NOT pass the smell test. Maybe you should talk them
> into
> starting a club...AZOJF...AZ Old Jeep Farts..or some such.
> Ross..(nearly a founder )
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non entity) has legal
> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it, the AzVJC
> never
> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't own
> anything
> (including the copyrighted webpages).
>
> Just something to think about.
>
> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want to be a
> part
> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change unless YOU
> make
> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
>
> - Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a good idea
> for
> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without everyone's
> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any more than any
> other club currently is.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44500 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:29pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Hi Doug,
I created a second group earlier today just in case organization is pushed
without what I feel is an appropriate vote of 50% of the membership +1 in
the yes category for organization. I may keep it active as a standby for
the next time the "O" word comes around <grin>.
Ciao Mr. President
Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DougB [mailto:azjeep@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 5:17 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; Chatfield, Mike
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> I disagree with you there, Mike. While it may be possible
> legally to take
> the name for another group, it would still be wrong. I recall
> when someone
> (can't recall who) got pissed off and started a second AzVJC.
> I protested it
> then as being tacky and wrong. Didn't care about setting up
> another club,
> but suggested that they not steal the name. I think they
> fizzled out anyway.
> I don't think your necessarily proposing this...but just want
> to voice my
> opinion on it.
>
> Doug
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...>
> To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> > And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
> entity) has legal
> > right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
> the AzVJC
> never
> > incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it
> can't own anything
> > (including the copyrighted webpages).
> >
> > Just something to think about.
> >
> > BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't
> want to be a part
> > of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
> unless YOU make
> > the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
> >
> > - Mike
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> > To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> > Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is
> a good idea
> for
> > those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to
> the AZVJC....
> > webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make
> without everyone's
> > authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> > separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
> more than any
> > other club currently is.
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44501 From: az_jeeper_mike <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:29pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs: Mike's response to DougB
--- In az_vjc@y..., "DougB" <azjeep@c...> wrote:
> Mike...I realize you've given this some thought, and before I add
> too much to the fray, I'd like to know how it would be proposed to
> operate in terms of communication (maybe you've answered these
> things and I just haven't gotten to them yet). Would there be 2
> separate lists? 2 web sites? 2 trail lists, secret handshake :o)
> etc. Not sure I completely understand the function of the shadow
> AzJC...
Ok, here it goes. Actually I can understand the concern over this
issue, originally I was completely against it. After talking with
Sandee McCullen, however, I am only slightly against it (yea, you
read right, against it; just consider me the lawyer that is
representing a client whose cause he doesn't completely agree with?)
What changed my opinion was the fact that Sandee said we could
incorporate without having elections, meetings, etc.. But it does
require at least 3 "officers" and By Laws, but the officers don't
have to have any real duties, and the by laws only have to say that
we don't have any rules, elections, meetings etc...
What I've tried to arrange in the past is to let me create a webpage
where members could join ASA4WDC and pay via PayPal on their own.
However, Sandee mentioned that Individual memberships may be going
away. With this in mind, that means in order for an individual to
become a member of the ASA4WDC, he/she has to join a ASA4WDC Club.
Also, this does not take into account United or State Land Use (which
I still need to get myself one for this year).
What I really want to do is to provide a one stop shopping place for
Members of the AzVJC to get the ASA4WDC membership, the United
Membership and the State Land Use Permit. What I'd like is to receive
money via PayPal and send off the applications for the members, but I
don't believe this is possible, or at least not easily done. So, I
thought it might be easier to incorporate a "shadow" club (which in
essence is the AzVJC) and get the memberships via that club for the
AzVJC members that wanted to participate; the added bonus being that
it would be cheaper.
So to answer the question about splitting, or 2 websites, 2 lists the
answer is no. All this is, is an attempt to get more people to join
ASA4WDC and United and get their Land Use Permits. If the end result
is that we can do this without incorporation then I am 100% for it.
My intent by introducing this thread is to 1. get it talked about so
new members know more. 2. Get SOMETHING established to make things
easier for our members to get their ASA4WDC & United Memberships and
their State Land Use Permit.
Now that everyone has seen both sides of the debate, offer
suggestions on what you think is the best way to accomplish then end
goal which is to get as many members as the AzVJC as possible signed
up with ASA4WDC and United and get them their State Land Use permits.
- Mike
44502 From: az_jeeper_mike <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:30pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs
Actually it would work because anyone that doesn't participate in
the "Dues" program needs to go out an get their own Land Use Permit.
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., mbailey345@a... wrote:
> Mike,
>
> If you want to get in the legally and technically side of this
arguement,
> then what legally happens is any non-paying member can only go on 1
or 2 runs
> a year with the paying club.
>
> So technically, I don't think this is going to work. It sounds
nice, but it
> is doomed to fail. I keep hearing how people don't like organized
clubs,
> basically because of the ego's and splits and BS etc. etc.
> etc...............................
>
> Take a look at what we have here, splits, ego's, BS
> etc............................
>
> Don,t get me wrong, I think an organized club, done right has more
benefits
> than disorganized cluds.
>
> Keep up the good work. Remember, if the eco warriors have thier
way, the only
> way you'll get to go offroad is by virtual tours, hence , you'll be
the real
> "virtual jeep club"
>
>
> Mike
44503 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:31pm
Subject: Re: RE: Organzied Clubs
FWIW, the name Arizona Virtual Jeep Club was my suggestion. The other
competing name at the time (we were on our third beer) was Geeks with Jeeps.
:o)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Baja Fleg" <fleigle@h...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:58 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] RE: Organzied Clubs
> Brian your digging yourself a hole here and being very immature. Just to
> make sure you understand how copyrights really work and what you can and
can
> not do I have taken the pleasure of digging up an old article just for
you.
> I'm only including the first two paragraphs of it because its very long
and
> wordy but I think you will get the point. You will see that even though
the
> AZVJC is not copyrighted with the copyright office they are still owned by
a
> person and you are not able to claim anything from AZVJC as your own. You
> would need to get the endorsement from the webmaster and every member of
the
> AZVJC to be legal. Good Luck!! If you would like the rest of the article
> shoot me an email, I would be happy to send it to you.
>
> Michael
>
> -----------------------------------------------
> 1.) The Webmaster's Copyright
>
> So you'd like to use some content on someone else's site or would
> like to know what your rights as a web developer are? Then great,
> because that's exactly what this article is about. To start out, your
> images, photographs, and text are copyrighted the moment you create
> them without any need of registering them or including a copyright
> symbol on them. However, registering them will help in the case
> that you'd ever need to take anyone to court.
>
> "Fair Use"
>
> Fair use is placing another's work such as text out of an article
> on one of your web pages. You can usually get away with 2-3 sentences
> quoting them and making sure to give them credit. Also, never mislead
> the reader to think that the author of that article is endorsing you
> in anyway. You should still always try to get the author's permission
> for something like this, although it isn't usually required.
>
>
> Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
> I just checked the copyright office and did not find the AzVJClogo
> copyrighted.
>
> __________________________________________________ _______________
> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44504 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:31pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
What is a Fur-eak? Is it good?
Did he call me a good name?
<grin>
I consider it a serious flaw of mine when I see people loose it in a debate,
and I extract pleasure from it.
<grin>
Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Mish [mailto:yldkat55@h...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 5:32 PM
> To: arizonajeep@c...; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Actually, Joe, I think he was calling YOU that!
>
> Bill Mish
> 1955 Willys CJ3B
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...>
> To: "'az_jeeper_mike'" <azvjc@a...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:43 PM
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> > Fureak?
> >
> > Is that the name of your new club?
> > <grin>
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:55 PM
> > > To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >
> > >
> > > My point once again is that this IS NOT ABOUT CHANGING
> THE AZVJC. It
> > > is about GIVING AZVJC MEMBERS the OPTION to join ASA4WDC,
> United and
> > > get a State Land Use Permit at a DISCOUNTED price ($5 off).
> > >
> > > My freaking goodness people, you're acting like we're
> going to come
> > > in your house and put a meter on your computer and charge you
> > > everytime you hit the AzVJC website.
> > >
> > > Fureak!
> > >
> > > - Mike
> > >
> > > --- In az_vjc@y..., "rlpeckii" <rlpii@q...> wrote:
> > > > Mike,
> > > > I think what Joe is saying is that it is OK to create a
> new club,
> > > > just don't "affiliate" it with the AZVJC.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
44505 From: Eric Marble <emarble3@p...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:41pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
Are you sure your not a only child ?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...>
To: "'DougB'" <azjeep@c...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>; "'Chatfield,
Mike'" <Mike@A...>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 5:29 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> Hi Doug,
>
> I created a second group earlier today just in case organization is pushed
> without what I feel is an appropriate vote of 50% of the membership +1 in
> the yes category for organization. I may keep it active as a standby for
> the next time the "O" word comes around <grin>.
>
> Ciao Mr. President
>
> Joe
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DougB [mailto:azjeep@c...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 5:17 PM
> > To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; Chatfield, Mike
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> > I disagree with you there, Mike. While it may be possible
> > legally to take
> > the name for another group, it would still be wrong. I recall
> > when someone
> > (can't recall who) got pissed off and started a second AzVJC.
> > I protested it
> > then as being tacky and wrong. Didn't care about setting up
> > another club,
> > but suggested that they not steal the name. I think they
> > fizzled out anyway.
> > I don't think your necessarily proposing this...but just want
> > to voice my
> > opinion on it.
> >
> > Doug
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...>
> > To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> > > And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
> > entity) has legal
> > > right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
> > the AzVJC
> > never
> > > incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it
> > can't own anything
> > > (including the copyrighted webpages).
> > >
> > > Just something to think about.
> > >
> > > BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't
> > want to be a part
> > > of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
> > unless YOU make
> > > the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
> > >
> > > - Mike
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> > > To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >
> > >
> > > Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is
> > a good idea
> > for
> > > those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to
> > the AZVJC....
> > > webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make
> > without everyone's
> > > authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> > > separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
> > more than any
> > > other club currently is.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44506 From: Clay Forrester <allvol@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:33pm
Subject: Re: Re: You just nailed it Mike.....
Hahahahahaha....yep, that's me! It's still ugly but it has changed a lot.
This will be the last weekend I'll have it out before it goes into the body
shop for tin work and paint. I'll send you a picture when it's finished.
Clay
----- Original Message -----
From: "jeepin_in_az" <jeepin_in_az@y...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:47 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: You just nailed it Mike.....
> Hey Clay,
>
> I was reading one of my older JP mags at lunch today, and happened
> upon a picture of you and your scrambler. It was in the March 2001
> issue, from the 27th annual Jamboree out in FJ. and boy, that is
> a "nifty bungee cord cooler hanger"!!
>
>
> Mike Baney
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "scramzilla" <allvol@c...> wrote:
> > I am spliting my sides reading this stuff. I'd like to get in on
> this
> > "stuff" but I'm still at work....see you tonight.
> >
> > Clay Forrester
> >
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "az_jeeper_mike" <azvjc@a...> wrote:
> > > My point once again is that this IS NOT ABOUT CHANGING THE AZVJC.
> It
> > > is about GIVING AZVJC MEMBERS the OPTION to join ASA4WDC, United
> and
> > > get a State Land Use Permit at a DISCOUNTED price ($5 off).
> > >
> > > My freaking goodness people, you're acting like we're going to
> come
> > > in your house and put a meter on your computer and charge you
> > > everytime you hit the AzVJC website.
> > >
> > > Fureak!
> > >
> > > - Mike
> > >
> > > --- In az_vjc@y..., "rlpeckii" <rlpii@q...> wrote:
> > > > Mike,
> > > > I think what Joe is saying is that it is OK to create a new
> club,
> > > > just don't "affiliate" it with the AZVJC.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44507 From: az_jeeper_mike <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:35pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs
Not that I'd actually do it, because you are right, it would be
wrong. But, I was merely pointing out that someone COULD do it, even
someone that had never heard of the AzVJC. Which is kind of a
secondary backward *** reason for incorporation also.
My remarks in earlier posts were to make everyone stop and think for
a second about the legalities of our club. I.e., someone could steal
our name, or sue the trip leader for taking them someplace that
scratched the paint on their brand new Grand Cherokee, etc...
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "DougB" <azjeep@c...> wrote:
> I disagree with you there, Mike. While it may be possible legally
to take
> the name for another group, it would still be wrong. I recall when
someone
> (can't recall who) got pissed off and started a second AzVJC. I
protested it
> then as being tacky and wrong. Didn't care about setting up another
club,
> but suggested that they not steal the name. I think they fizzled
out anyway.
> I don't think your necessarily proposing this...but just want to
voice my
> opinion on it.
>
> Doug
44508 From: bajaumbug <fleigle@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:35pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs: Michaels response to Mike's response, LOL
Alright Mike I'll play. What if these 3 "officers" all of a sudden
agree that we will have by-law, rules, elections, meetings, etc....
Wouldn't that just be a kick in the (you know) to the rest of us
that are against this. If I wanted to be told what to do and how to
do it then I would go down and re-inlist in the military. No
thanks, done my time already.
Michael
--- In az_vjc@y..., "az_jeeper_mike" <azvjc@a...> wrote:
> What changed my opinion was the fact that Sandee said we could
> incorporate without having elections, meetings, etc.. But it does
> require at least 3 "officers" and By Laws, but the officers don't
> have to have any real duties, and the by laws only have to say
that
> we don't have any rules, elections, meetings etc...
44509 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:35pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
I think we have a great thing goin that ain't broke. I'm not sure I
understand the need to create a shadow group. I posted a note to this
affect, but I'm getting e-mail faster than I can read it :o)
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert McNeeley" <robert.mcneeley@p...>
To: "'Bill Mish'" <yldkat55@h...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:26 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> There is nothing like having people take something that you created and
> developed and were kind enough to give access to and make it their own.
Yes
> this is my club too because I am a member. However I did not create it,
> develop it, and let people join it. I am not saying that becoming an
> organized group is a good or bad thing... What ever happens...happens. I
> will still be part of the vjc. I just think that everyone...yes...EVERYONE
> needs to step back and listen to what the orig 6 want.
> We all belong to this club BUT they were the ones who started it... and
gave
> it to us. To the original 6, or what's left of them, What do you want???
> What do you think??? To those who were after the orig 6... shut up and
> listen... Everyone has made good comments...some have just acted butt
> hurt... So orig 6 what do you want?
>
> anyone have $.98 change?
> Robert aka Fat Bob
>
>
> From: "jeepthang87yj" <jeep_thang@h...>
> To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:53 PM
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> > Oh come on as if there isn't enough clubs that want your money
> > already, and have little requirements you need to stay in the club,
> > and besides it's really stupid to pay money just to watch people talk
> > on the net.
> > Not me I'll vote against it.
> >
> > Sincerely: JEEP THANG
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > > Mike,
> > >
> > > Organization is in the air again.... and I suspect that once again,
> > it shall
> > > be shot down completely.
> > >
> > > There are enough organized clubs to join here in the valley if
> > people want
> > > to join. The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer, and
> > we
> > > already have a Webmaster who is doing a fantastic job <grin>.
> > >
> > > The only way that this group will become an organized entity is if
> > you can
> > > get every single member to vote for organization... and I hate to
> > tell you
> > > this; but I'll never vote for it...put it to a vote and watch how
> > badly it
> > > gets shot down.
> > >
> > > If people want to belong to an organized group, go off and start
> > your own
> > > organized group. Call it the Arizona Jeep Club or the Arizona
> > Axlebreakers
> > > or whatever... but I suggest that people not get their hopes up to
> > high for
> > > the AZVJC to EVER become organized.
> > >
> > > Ta-Ta till next year's organizational pleas start anew...
> > >
> > >
> > > Joe West
> > >
> > > Long live Anarchy!
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:29 AM
> > > To: 'az_vjc@y...'
> > > Subject: [az_vjc] Organized Clubs
> > >
> > >
> > > To all of those that already belong to an organized club, you may
> > now
> > > delete this message (or continue reading if you're curious).
> > >
> > > For everyone here that is interested:
> > >
> > > I talked to Sandee McCullen at the cleanup in January and have
> > been trying
> > > to figure out a way to bring this up to the group. Well it looks
> > like this
> > > may be the perfect time with all that has happened in the past day
> > or so.
> > >
> > > We can make the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club an incorporated club
> > and become
> > > a member club of the Arizona State Association of 4WD Clubs WITHOUT
> > > organizing (at least not any more than we already have). Sandee
> > said that we
> > > need three "officers" and bylaws, we don't have to have membership
> > > requirements, elections, "official" club runs. All the bylaws have
> > to say
> > > is who the officers are, how new members join, and when we have
> > meetings
> > > (even if it is never).
> > >
> > > Here is the way it would work. As it is now, anyone can join the
> > AzVJC
> > > via the website and post messages to the group, this WILL NOT
> > change. What
> > > changes is, once someone has joined the AzVJC and gone on one run
> > (so we can
> > > verify that they live in Arizona and HAVE a JEEP) then they can
> > join the
> > > Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated (AzVJC Inc). All they have
> > to do is
> > > pay their dues for the year. If they want to drop out of the AzVJC
> > Inc then
> > > they just don't pay the dues; it doesn't mean that they will be
> > dropped from
> > > the website or mailing list. Nothing else changes... all we're
> > doing is
> > > adding another option for our members.
> > >
> > > Here is what I'm thinking for the incorporation:
> > >
> > > For the three officers:
> > >
> > > President - Responsible for turning in New Membership Information
> > to
> > > ASA4WDC, attend ASA4WDC meetings. (I nominate DougB if he's
> > interested)
> > > Treasurer - Responsible for collecting money from members and
> > paying
> > > ASA4WDC and Az State. (I nominate Jon Loveless, if he's interested,
> > since he
> > > already does alot with stickers, etc...)
> > > Webmaster - Responsible for maintaining the website and e-mail
> > list.
> > >
> > > How to become a New Member: 1. Join the AzVJC 2. Go on a run
> > with the
> > > AzVJC (with at least one member of the AzVJC Inc present) 3. Pay
> > Dues.
> > > That's it.
> > >
> > > How to become a Non Member: 1. Don't pay your dues.
> > >
> > > Meetings and Elections: None. If a club officer steps down,
> > he/she
> > > chooses the replacement.
> > >
> > > Dues: I am thinking since Az State has decided that clubs are
> > only
> > > allowed 2 runs per month that we just include an individual permit
> > in the
> > > cost of the dues for the year. This way members of the AzVJC Inc
> > are double
> > > covered and they won't have to remember to get one every year (like
> > me).
> > > Also included in the cost of dues would be ASA4WDC membership.
> > Because of
> > > the incorporation, we'll likely have to start paying for the
> > webspace (which
> > > we currently get for free) which is $21.25/month. We could also
> > include
> > > things like paying to get rid of advertisements on Yahoo Groups,
> > extra
> > > stickers to hand out at events, flyers, banners, etc... I estimate
> > roughly
> > > $40/year which is right in line with most clubs.
> > >
> > > The benefits are: 1. The AzVJC will be covered by the ASA4WDC
> > million
> > > dollar insurance. 2. ASA4WDC and united will get more money to
> > fight the
> > > eco-nazis. 3. The AzVJC will finally be recognized as the largest
> > club at
> > > the ASA4WDC Jamboree :) 4. I'm sure there's more but my mind is
> > drawing a
> > > blank.
> > >
> > > The downside is: 1. Paying Dues. 2. There are no other
> > downsides, other
> > > than paying dues, nothing changes, and you only have to pay dues if
> > you want
> > > to (you just remain a member of AzVJC but not AzVJC Inc).
> > >
> > > Does this make sense? I'll post a poll to find out how many may
> > be
> > > interested. The initial start up costs will depend on the number
> > of people
> > > starting the AzVJC Inc as incorporation can initially be expensive
> > ($500?)
> > > ALSO, if anyone has been through the incorporation process before,
> > we could
> > > use your assistance.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > - Mike
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44510 From: <flatfendr@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 11:40am
Subject: One last lift ?
This a.m. someone had a 1.75" lift for sale that was for a TJ. Will that work on a ZJ? Sounded like a puck lift. Do you foresee problems going up 4.75"? I just thought that since we Had it apart why not go for the nose bleed seats.
Thanks for your help
Sam
44486 From: Brian Hill <brian@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:59pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
On that Joe, I agree with you all the way...
~B~
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:48 PM
To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
By the way people... lest you forget; I REALLY like Mike. He's done an
incredible amount of work for this group and his web page is second to none.
Mike knows, as I know, that this really is just a difference of opinion...
it is how things in a healthy society work... it is how things in a healthy
society should work. Debate and discussion followed by change if it is
necessary, and no change if it is not.
Our founding fathers would be impressed!
<grin>
Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:06 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > the reason I'm against this is because anytime you make rules,
>
> No rules.. that is what are by-laws are going to say "There Are No
> Rules." (well actually just the ones that ALREADY EXIST and are
> POSTED ON THE WEBSITE)
>
>
> > put people in positions of authority over other people... or a
> > group of people, things change.
>
> Hmmm, things change, eh? I've been the webmaster for what almost 2
> years? And the group moderator for about a year? What things have
> you seen change other than added features (OPTIONS) to the website?
> Could I be abusive with my powers? You bet I could, but I am not. I
> have not once removed a member from either the list or the website
> without THEM asking me to do so. So you see someone already is
> in "position of authority" as you put it.
>
> Once again let me reiterate, this is about an OPTION pure and simple.
> If you think that by not voluntarily paying dues, that this means
> that you're not part of the AzVJC then by the same token if you're
> not using every single feature of the AzVJC website you're not part
> of the AzVJC. And I have yet to see your Rig in the Whoops section. ;)
>
> - Mike
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVERTISEMENT
44487 From: Clay Forrester <allvol@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:52pm
Subject: Re: Re: Thanks (more)
It's true.
Clay Forrester
----- Original Message -----
From: Ross Skinner
To: AZVJC (E-mail)
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:48 AM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Thanks (more)
On one of the pervious threads someone mentioned that the clubs were limited to two runs a month on state lands...maybe that is not true but I would not be surprised if it is.
-----Original Message-----
From: Fred [mailto:fredtj@home.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:49 AM
Cc: AZVJC (E-mail)
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Thanks (more)
Did I miss something (obviously), as this "Thanks" thread got long, so I didn't read the last several hundred ;)
Anyway *what* State Limitations are we talking about ??
Cheers,
Fred
Ross Skinner wrote:
After hearing some of the LIMITATIONS being placed upon the clubs by theState and I am sure the Feds are not far behind...I am alarmed...who in thehell rolled over and let themselves be boxed in like that. You are notusing state lands for profit...where is there an ordinance allowing themthat kind of control?If you don't think this is not a methodical effort to get your accessultimately removed or severely limited ...lets say one run a quarter..I havea bridge to sell you.Yes, clubs can be fun and can focus activism to better influencebureaucrats, but, it is looking like the usual closed cliques (you know,care more, know more, better, smarter and so on) are forming and are doingthings that may not be in the best interest of our use of our lands. Again,I am not sure of this but it seems to be a consistent outcome of groups likethis. Now it is our responsibility as independents to do things and say thingsthat represent a broader reality of our desires then what some smallcliquish clubs think.This has been an interesting discussion.Ross-----Original Message-----From: Clay Forrester [mailto:allvol@cox.net]Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:07 AMTo: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; akamofoeSubject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Thanks (more)What will end up happing is that your land (private property) would be thelast to go.....that's all. The rest of the public State land and the rest ofthe country would lose theirs. I for one do not want to go wheelin' in thesame area over and over and over................Do you? If we lose theclubs, we lose it allClay----- Original Message -----From: "akamofoe" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 10:17 PMSubject: [az_vjc] Re: Thanks (more)
I've been wheel'n for more than 20 years now and have never been amember of a club that collects dues. It's always been a good group offriends, their friends, etc.. Don't get me wrong, I agree that thoseclubs (or organizations) that are collecting money (I mean dues) areusing them for good purposes, keeping our lands open.But I had an Idea. Why don't we get together and start a non-profitorganization, collect donations (tax deductible), contact a couple ofthe Big Three Dealers, some Magazines, etc.. With all thosecontributions we could go out and purchase our own land and open ourown OHV area. Select a couple of area groups to head a panel tooversee OUR LANDS.Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
44488 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:56pm
Subject: [FS] Rear Spare Tire Holder
Price: $25.00
Contact: Kevin Kilroy
For sale a spare tire carrier for the rear tailgate. T.J. Only.....Contact email at EvilWarlock@aaahawk.com
Kevin Kilroy
44489 From: <flyboy0417@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 10:58am
Subject: Torque modifications?
What are some torque mods i can do for under 400 bucks? Thanks a bunch.
Bryan
44490 From: jetowle2000 <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:00pm
Subject: Re: Torque modifications?
What vehicle, year & so on?
--James
--- In az_vjc@y..., flyboy0417@a... wrote:
> What are some torque mods i can do for under 400 bucks? Thanks a
bunch.
>
> Bryan
44491 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:07pm
Subject: [TR] Morgan City/Cedar Basin Road - Saturday, March 16, 2002
Hello All,
Doug Olson is leading a Morgan City/Cedar Basin Road trail run on Saturday, March 16, 2002.
When: 1:00 pm
Where: SE corner of I17 and Carefree Rd.
Rating: 2.5
Length: 5 hours
CB Channel: 14
Run Morgan City/Cedar Basin Road from north to south. Potluck dinner at ~6:00 pm at Lake Pleasant picnic area (entry fee required). Campfire with marshmallows and s'mores.
This trip is intended for families with children:
- Relatively easy, scenic trail for beginners in stock vehicles.
- Bring meat to grill and non-alcoholic beverages for your family.
- Bring a side dish or dessert to share with others.
- Bring tablecloths, plates, utensils, chairs etc. as desired.
I will bring charcoal, lighter fluid, matches, firewood and stuff for s'mores.
I am familiar with the trail but not the picnic area. Please contact me if you can give recommendations on the picnic areas.
Trail runs on the west side of Hell's Canyon Wilderness west of Lake Pleasant. First part of trail is easy driving in 4WD high on fine gravel with occasional rocks in the wash. After ~7 miles, at a windmill (33* 55.049', 112* 24.948') the trail climbs out of the wash to the north east and provides scenic views of Hell's Canyon Wilderness to the east. Next 5 miles is a little more challenging (hill climbs, ruts and minor washouts but negligile brush or off-camber)with a mix of 4WD high and low driving. Trail intersects with Castle Hot Springs Road again at 33* 58.275', 112* 25.957'
Click Here To Add Your Name to the Sign Up List
Thank You,
- The AzVJC Website
44492 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:06pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
Well...currently, I'm paying U4WDA and ASA dues and also paying for a State
License....so I don't see much of a problem in paying dues instead. However,
there are a number of unanswered questions on this. I've only just begun to
read all the responses....and yes Joe...I DO have a meeting tonight :o) so
I'm not sure I'll be catching up on this huge thread until late tonite.
Personally, I've been a big advocate of keeping things loose and not going
the org. route. I think that AzVJC has created a very unique and fantastic
(IMO) environment for the discussion of issues, doing runs, clean ups, Jeep
building stuff...etc, etc. I know of no club (except perhaps the Tucson
Rough Riders) that has done more in terms of organized events (clean ups,
BLM meetings, trail repair, etc). It's been absolutely fantastic when you
think about what we started with. It's really been more of a vehicle for
organizing different things (like runs, build ups, clean ups) than it is an
organization in itself.
However, I also understand the desire to have a loose organization, and the
fact that we've become HUGE. I've also been bothered (maybe it's just me) by
people that come along and drop a bomb and split (the 'you guys at AzVJC'
stuff). Course, that comes with the territory I suppose. Also, the volume of
e-mail has become very large, and I use the delete key a lot more than I
used to....It would, however, be a great shame to loose the spirit of AzVJC
by having a divided group.
As far as having a voice in ASA, while that would be fine well and good, and
beneficial, it's action that really counts...writing letters, attending
meetings, etc. I know at one BLM meeting I attended, half the pro trails
group was from AzVJC...so the argument that we need to be organized to be
affective doesn't hold a lot of water, IMO. However, there are always ways
that we can become more affective.
Mike...I realize you've given this some thought, and before I add too much
to the fray, I'd like to know how it would be proposed to operate in terms
of communication (maybe you've answered these things and I just haven't
gotten to them yet). Would there be 2 separate lists? 2 web sites? 2 trail
lists, secret handshake :o) etc. Not sure I completely understand the
function of the shadow AzJC...
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "az_jeeper_mike" <Mike@A...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:53 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> This is exactly what I mean. IF you want to participate then do so
> (pay your dues, get the ASA4WDC membership, United Membership, and
> Land Use Permit), IF you do not want to participate then don't (no
> different than what you have now)
>
> - Mike
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe Kearney" <joe@j...> wrote:
> > If someone chooses not o participate then it would be just like the
> > club was before, no problem.
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44493 From: <mbailey345@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 11:10am
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
Mike,
If you want to get in the legally and technically side of this arguement,
then what legally happens is any non-paying member can only go on 1 or 2 runs
a year with the paying club.
So technically, I don't think this is going to work. It sounds nice, but it
is doomed to fail. I keep hearing how people don't like organized clubs,
basically because of the ego's and splits and BS etc. etc.
etc...............................
Take a look at what we have here, splits, ego's, BS
etc............................
Don,t get me wrong, I think an organized club, done right has more benefits
than disorganized cluds.
Keep up the good work. Remember, if the eco warriors have thier way, the only
way you'll get to go offroad is by virtual tours, hence , you'll be the real
"virtual jeep club"
Mike
44494 From: dthorton_2000 <dt_horton@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:15pm
Subject: Re: Magazine Subscription at Expo
I subscribed to 4wd & Sport Utility (already have JP 'til 04) at the
Truckin' Nationals <- (lame!) in October. I just got my first issue
this month. BTW they have the same publisher.
Veeerrry Slow!
Dan
--- In az_vjc@y..., Gary Holmes <niitoyis@w...> wrote:
> Group:
>
> Did anyone besides me get sucked into a magazine
subscription (in my
> case to JP) as the Expo when they gave you a knife set as a gift
for
> signing up? I have yet to receive the magazine and was
wondering if I
> was the exception or the rule here.
>
> Gary Holmes
44495 From: Baja Fleg <fleigle@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:17pm
Subject: Organize, NOT!!
Mike
The current AZVJC membership is at 1023. So to get your AZVJC inc. plan
approved you would need to get 512 yes votes, right now you have 13. If you
can 512 HONEST yes votes then even I would have to agree it was the right
thing to do. You know that if press this much farther your only going to
start a war among us then the only people you will really be helping is the
Eco Nazis. Lets all stand back and give Mike his week, he only needs 499
yes votes.
Michael
__________________________________________________ _______________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
44496 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:17pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
I disagree with you there, Mike. While it may be possible legally to take
the name for another group, it would still be wrong. I recall when someone
(can't recall who) got pissed off and started a second AzVJC. I protested it
then as being tacky and wrong. Didn't care about setting up another club,
but suggested that they not steal the name. I think they fizzled out anyway.
I don't think your necessarily proposing this...but just want to voice my
opinion on it.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non entity) has legal
> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it, the AzVJC
never
> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't own anything
> (including the copyrighted webpages).
>
> Just something to think about.
>
> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want to be a part
> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change unless YOU make
> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
>
> - Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a good idea
for
> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without everyone's
> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any more than any
> other club currently is.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44497 From: Bill Mish <yldkat55@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:32pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
Actually, Joe, I think he was calling YOU that!
Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...>
To: "'az_jeeper_mike'" <azvjc@a...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:43 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> Fureak?
>
> Is that the name of your new club?
> <grin>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:55 PM
> > To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> > My point once again is that this IS NOT ABOUT CHANGING THE AZVJC. It
> > is about GIVING AZVJC MEMBERS the OPTION to join ASA4WDC, United and
> > get a State Land Use Permit at a DISCOUNTED price ($5 off).
> >
> > My freaking goodness people, you're acting like we're going to come
> > in your house and put a meter on your computer and charge you
> > everytime you hit the AzVJC website.
> >
> > Fureak!
> >
> > - Mike
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "rlpeckii" <rlpii@q...> wrote:
> > > Mike,
> > > I think what Joe is saying is that it is OK to create a new club,
> > > just don't "affiliate" it with the AZVJC.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
44498 From: Rick <ricknhall@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:26pm
Subject: Re: Organize, NOT!!
Okay, I have seen this voting logic mentioned twice now and I still am not
sure what country it is that bases decisions on a percentage of the populous
and not a percentage of the number of people who voted. If the USA was run
that way no election would ever be decided because there would never be
enough votes to win anything. I am not advocating which way to vote only
that the results of a vote are always based on the number of VOTES not the
number of people that could vote.
Rick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Baja Fleg" <fleigle@h...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 5:17 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Organize, NOT!!
> Mike
> The current AZVJC membership is at 1023. So to get your AZVJC inc. plan
> approved you would need to get 512 yes votes, right now you have 13. If
you
> can 512 HONEST yes votes then even I would have to agree it was the right
> thing to do. You know that if press this much farther your only going to
> start a war among us then the only people you will really be helping is
the
> Eco Nazis. Lets all stand back and give Mike his week, he only needs 499
> yes votes.
>
> Michael
>
> __________________________________________________ _______________
> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44499 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:28pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
The club was started in '98 by a posting to the Jeep+Willys' NG.
Communicated back and forth on the NG and started discussing Az Jeep stuff,
trails etc. The first run was actually not Crown King, but Mt. Ord (Dan Weed
and myself). Dan and I got to talking about setting something up with the
group we were communicating with on the NG, and so we posted the Crown King
run were we had about 6 or so do the run. At the CK Saloon we spoke about
and decided to set up a loose internet based club, to discuss runs, Jeep
stuff, trails, etc. DanW set up the listserv and JimL set up the first web
site.The driving force behind the concept was really just a group of guys
wanting to do runs together. It grew from there to a really fantastic forum
or many things. I'm sure that none of us ever dreamed it would get this big.
In short, it surpassed all of our expectations...and is the best
organization (unorganized as it is) that I've ever experienced.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Kearney" <joe@j...>
To: "Ross Skinner" <rskinner@s...>; "AZVJC (E-mail)"
<az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:54 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> I have asked Doug that exact same question.
>
> I would like to hear what he and the other 5 originals say.
>
>
> Joe Kearney
> Joe@J...
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ross Skinner [mailto:rskinner@s...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:36 PM
> To: AZVJC (E-mail)
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
> Whirlwind in a teapot.....thats all this is as usual. Mike, start a
> club...fine, have fun.. leave this thing alone, the only folks I believe
> have a say are the ones that founded it...even though you do alot for
> it...they really have "ownership" of this. Using what they did to create
> another AZVJC does NOT pass the smell test. Maybe you should talk them
> into
> starting a club...AZOJF...AZ Old Jeep Farts..or some such.
> Ross..(nearly a founder )
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non entity) has legal
> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it, the AzVJC
> never
> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't own
> anything
> (including the copyrighted webpages).
>
> Just something to think about.
>
> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want to be a
> part
> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change unless YOU
> make
> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
>
> - Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a good idea
> for
> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without everyone's
> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any more than any
> other club currently is.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44500 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:29pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Hi Doug,
I created a second group earlier today just in case organization is pushed
without what I feel is an appropriate vote of 50% of the membership +1 in
the yes category for organization. I may keep it active as a standby for
the next time the "O" word comes around <grin>.
Ciao Mr. President
Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DougB [mailto:azjeep@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 5:17 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; Chatfield, Mike
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> I disagree with you there, Mike. While it may be possible
> legally to take
> the name for another group, it would still be wrong. I recall
> when someone
> (can't recall who) got pissed off and started a second AzVJC.
> I protested it
> then as being tacky and wrong. Didn't care about setting up
> another club,
> but suggested that they not steal the name. I think they
> fizzled out anyway.
> I don't think your necessarily proposing this...but just want
> to voice my
> opinion on it.
>
> Doug
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...>
> To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> > And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
> entity) has legal
> > right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
> the AzVJC
> never
> > incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it
> can't own anything
> > (including the copyrighted webpages).
> >
> > Just something to think about.
> >
> > BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't
> want to be a part
> > of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
> unless YOU make
> > the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
> >
> > - Mike
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> > To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> > Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is
> a good idea
> for
> > those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to
> the AZVJC....
> > webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make
> without everyone's
> > authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> > separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
> more than any
> > other club currently is.
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44501 From: az_jeeper_mike <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:29pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs: Mike's response to DougB
--- In az_vjc@y..., "DougB" <azjeep@c...> wrote:
> Mike...I realize you've given this some thought, and before I add
> too much to the fray, I'd like to know how it would be proposed to
> operate in terms of communication (maybe you've answered these
> things and I just haven't gotten to them yet). Would there be 2
> separate lists? 2 web sites? 2 trail lists, secret handshake :o)
> etc. Not sure I completely understand the function of the shadow
> AzJC...
Ok, here it goes. Actually I can understand the concern over this
issue, originally I was completely against it. After talking with
Sandee McCullen, however, I am only slightly against it (yea, you
read right, against it; just consider me the lawyer that is
representing a client whose cause he doesn't completely agree with?)
What changed my opinion was the fact that Sandee said we could
incorporate without having elections, meetings, etc.. But it does
require at least 3 "officers" and By Laws, but the officers don't
have to have any real duties, and the by laws only have to say that
we don't have any rules, elections, meetings etc...
What I've tried to arrange in the past is to let me create a webpage
where members could join ASA4WDC and pay via PayPal on their own.
However, Sandee mentioned that Individual memberships may be going
away. With this in mind, that means in order for an individual to
become a member of the ASA4WDC, he/she has to join a ASA4WDC Club.
Also, this does not take into account United or State Land Use (which
I still need to get myself one for this year).
What I really want to do is to provide a one stop shopping place for
Members of the AzVJC to get the ASA4WDC membership, the United
Membership and the State Land Use Permit. What I'd like is to receive
money via PayPal and send off the applications for the members, but I
don't believe this is possible, or at least not easily done. So, I
thought it might be easier to incorporate a "shadow" club (which in
essence is the AzVJC) and get the memberships via that club for the
AzVJC members that wanted to participate; the added bonus being that
it would be cheaper.
So to answer the question about splitting, or 2 websites, 2 lists the
answer is no. All this is, is an attempt to get more people to join
ASA4WDC and United and get their Land Use Permits. If the end result
is that we can do this without incorporation then I am 100% for it.
My intent by introducing this thread is to 1. get it talked about so
new members know more. 2. Get SOMETHING established to make things
easier for our members to get their ASA4WDC & United Memberships and
their State Land Use Permit.
Now that everyone has seen both sides of the debate, offer
suggestions on what you think is the best way to accomplish then end
goal which is to get as many members as the AzVJC as possible signed
up with ASA4WDC and United and get them their State Land Use permits.
- Mike
44502 From: az_jeeper_mike <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:30pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs
Actually it would work because anyone that doesn't participate in
the "Dues" program needs to go out an get their own Land Use Permit.
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., mbailey345@a... wrote:
> Mike,
>
> If you want to get in the legally and technically side of this
arguement,
> then what legally happens is any non-paying member can only go on 1
or 2 runs
> a year with the paying club.
>
> So technically, I don't think this is going to work. It sounds
nice, but it
> is doomed to fail. I keep hearing how people don't like organized
clubs,
> basically because of the ego's and splits and BS etc. etc.
> etc...............................
>
> Take a look at what we have here, splits, ego's, BS
> etc............................
>
> Don,t get me wrong, I think an organized club, done right has more
benefits
> than disorganized cluds.
>
> Keep up the good work. Remember, if the eco warriors have thier
way, the only
> way you'll get to go offroad is by virtual tours, hence , you'll be
the real
> "virtual jeep club"
>
>
> Mike
44503 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:31pm
Subject: Re: RE: Organzied Clubs
FWIW, the name Arizona Virtual Jeep Club was my suggestion. The other
competing name at the time (we were on our third beer) was Geeks with Jeeps.
:o)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Baja Fleg" <fleigle@h...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:58 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] RE: Organzied Clubs
> Brian your digging yourself a hole here and being very immature. Just to
> make sure you understand how copyrights really work and what you can and
can
> not do I have taken the pleasure of digging up an old article just for
you.
> I'm only including the first two paragraphs of it because its very long
and
> wordy but I think you will get the point. You will see that even though
the
> AZVJC is not copyrighted with the copyright office they are still owned by
a
> person and you are not able to claim anything from AZVJC as your own. You
> would need to get the endorsement from the webmaster and every member of
the
> AZVJC to be legal. Good Luck!! If you would like the rest of the article
> shoot me an email, I would be happy to send it to you.
>
> Michael
>
> -----------------------------------------------
> 1.) The Webmaster's Copyright
>
> So you'd like to use some content on someone else's site or would
> like to know what your rights as a web developer are? Then great,
> because that's exactly what this article is about. To start out, your
> images, photographs, and text are copyrighted the moment you create
> them without any need of registering them or including a copyright
> symbol on them. However, registering them will help in the case
> that you'd ever need to take anyone to court.
>
> "Fair Use"
>
> Fair use is placing another's work such as text out of an article
> on one of your web pages. You can usually get away with 2-3 sentences
> quoting them and making sure to give them credit. Also, never mislead
> the reader to think that the author of that article is endorsing you
> in anyway. You should still always try to get the author's permission
> for something like this, although it isn't usually required.
>
>
> Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
> I just checked the copyright office and did not find the AzVJClogo
> copyrighted.
>
> __________________________________________________ _______________
> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44504 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:31pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
What is a Fur-eak? Is it good?
Did he call me a good name?
<grin>
I consider it a serious flaw of mine when I see people loose it in a debate,
and I extract pleasure from it.
<grin>
Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Mish [mailto:yldkat55@h...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 5:32 PM
> To: arizonajeep@c...; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Actually, Joe, I think he was calling YOU that!
>
> Bill Mish
> 1955 Willys CJ3B
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...>
> To: "'az_jeeper_mike'" <azvjc@a...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:43 PM
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> > Fureak?
> >
> > Is that the name of your new club?
> > <grin>
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:55 PM
> > > To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >
> > >
> > > My point once again is that this IS NOT ABOUT CHANGING
> THE AZVJC. It
> > > is about GIVING AZVJC MEMBERS the OPTION to join ASA4WDC,
> United and
> > > get a State Land Use Permit at a DISCOUNTED price ($5 off).
> > >
> > > My freaking goodness people, you're acting like we're
> going to come
> > > in your house and put a meter on your computer and charge you
> > > everytime you hit the AzVJC website.
> > >
> > > Fureak!
> > >
> > > - Mike
> > >
> > > --- In az_vjc@y..., "rlpeckii" <rlpii@q...> wrote:
> > > > Mike,
> > > > I think what Joe is saying is that it is OK to create a
> new club,
> > > > just don't "affiliate" it with the AZVJC.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
44505 From: Eric Marble <emarble3@p...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:41pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
Are you sure your not a only child ?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...>
To: "'DougB'" <azjeep@c...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>; "'Chatfield,
Mike'" <Mike@A...>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 5:29 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> Hi Doug,
>
> I created a second group earlier today just in case organization is pushed
> without what I feel is an appropriate vote of 50% of the membership +1 in
> the yes category for organization. I may keep it active as a standby for
> the next time the "O" word comes around <grin>.
>
> Ciao Mr. President
>
> Joe
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DougB [mailto:azjeep@c...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 5:17 PM
> > To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; Chatfield, Mike
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> > I disagree with you there, Mike. While it may be possible
> > legally to take
> > the name for another group, it would still be wrong. I recall
> > when someone
> > (can't recall who) got pissed off and started a second AzVJC.
> > I protested it
> > then as being tacky and wrong. Didn't care about setting up
> > another club,
> > but suggested that they not steal the name. I think they
> > fizzled out anyway.
> > I don't think your necessarily proposing this...but just want
> > to voice my
> > opinion on it.
> >
> > Doug
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...>
> > To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> > > And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
> > entity) has legal
> > > right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
> > the AzVJC
> > never
> > > incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it
> > can't own anything
> > > (including the copyrighted webpages).
> > >
> > > Just something to think about.
> > >
> > > BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't
> > want to be a part
> > > of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
> > unless YOU make
> > > the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
> > >
> > > - Mike
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> > > To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >
> > >
> > > Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is
> > a good idea
> > for
> > > those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to
> > the AZVJC....
> > > webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make
> > without everyone's
> > > authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> > > separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
> > more than any
> > > other club currently is.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44506 From: Clay Forrester <allvol@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:33pm
Subject: Re: Re: You just nailed it Mike.....
Hahahahahaha....yep, that's me! It's still ugly but it has changed a lot.
This will be the last weekend I'll have it out before it goes into the body
shop for tin work and paint. I'll send you a picture when it's finished.
Clay
----- Original Message -----
From: "jeepin_in_az" <jeepin_in_az@y...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:47 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: You just nailed it Mike.....
> Hey Clay,
>
> I was reading one of my older JP mags at lunch today, and happened
> upon a picture of you and your scrambler. It was in the March 2001
> issue, from the 27th annual Jamboree out in FJ. and boy, that is
> a "nifty bungee cord cooler hanger"!!
>
>
> Mike Baney
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "scramzilla" <allvol@c...> wrote:
> > I am spliting my sides reading this stuff. I'd like to get in on
> this
> > "stuff" but I'm still at work....see you tonight.
> >
> > Clay Forrester
> >
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "az_jeeper_mike" <azvjc@a...> wrote:
> > > My point once again is that this IS NOT ABOUT CHANGING THE AZVJC.
> It
> > > is about GIVING AZVJC MEMBERS the OPTION to join ASA4WDC, United
> and
> > > get a State Land Use Permit at a DISCOUNTED price ($5 off).
> > >
> > > My freaking goodness people, you're acting like we're going to
> come
> > > in your house and put a meter on your computer and charge you
> > > everytime you hit the AzVJC website.
> > >
> > > Fureak!
> > >
> > > - Mike
> > >
> > > --- In az_vjc@y..., "rlpeckii" <rlpii@q...> wrote:
> > > > Mike,
> > > > I think what Joe is saying is that it is OK to create a new
> club,
> > > > just don't "affiliate" it with the AZVJC.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44507 From: az_jeeper_mike <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:35pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs
Not that I'd actually do it, because you are right, it would be
wrong. But, I was merely pointing out that someone COULD do it, even
someone that had never heard of the AzVJC. Which is kind of a
secondary backward *** reason for incorporation also.
My remarks in earlier posts were to make everyone stop and think for
a second about the legalities of our club. I.e., someone could steal
our name, or sue the trip leader for taking them someplace that
scratched the paint on their brand new Grand Cherokee, etc...
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "DougB" <azjeep@c...> wrote:
> I disagree with you there, Mike. While it may be possible legally
to take
> the name for another group, it would still be wrong. I recall when
someone
> (can't recall who) got pissed off and started a second AzVJC. I
protested it
> then as being tacky and wrong. Didn't care about setting up another
club,
> but suggested that they not steal the name. I think they fizzled
out anyway.
> I don't think your necessarily proposing this...but just want to
voice my
> opinion on it.
>
> Doug
44508 From: bajaumbug <fleigle@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:35pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs: Michaels response to Mike's response, LOL
Alright Mike I'll play. What if these 3 "officers" all of a sudden
agree that we will have by-law, rules, elections, meetings, etc....
Wouldn't that just be a kick in the (you know) to the rest of us
that are against this. If I wanted to be told what to do and how to
do it then I would go down and re-inlist in the military. No
thanks, done my time already.
Michael
--- In az_vjc@y..., "az_jeeper_mike" <azvjc@a...> wrote:
> What changed my opinion was the fact that Sandee said we could
> incorporate without having elections, meetings, etc.. But it does
> require at least 3 "officers" and By Laws, but the officers don't
> have to have any real duties, and the by laws only have to say
that
> we don't have any rules, elections, meetings etc...
44509 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 4:35pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
I think we have a great thing goin that ain't broke. I'm not sure I
understand the need to create a shadow group. I posted a note to this
affect, but I'm getting e-mail faster than I can read it :o)
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert McNeeley" <robert.mcneeley@p...>
To: "'Bill Mish'" <yldkat55@h...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:26 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> There is nothing like having people take something that you created and
> developed and were kind enough to give access to and make it their own.
Yes
> this is my club too because I am a member. However I did not create it,
> develop it, and let people join it. I am not saying that becoming an
> organized group is a good or bad thing... What ever happens...happens. I
> will still be part of the vjc. I just think that everyone...yes...EVERYONE
> needs to step back and listen to what the orig 6 want.
> We all belong to this club BUT they were the ones who started it... and
gave
> it to us. To the original 6, or what's left of them, What do you want???
> What do you think??? To those who were after the orig 6... shut up and
> listen... Everyone has made good comments...some have just acted butt
> hurt... So orig 6 what do you want?
>
> anyone have $.98 change?
> Robert aka Fat Bob
>
>
> From: "jeepthang87yj" <jeep_thang@h...>
> To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:53 PM
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> > Oh come on as if there isn't enough clubs that want your money
> > already, and have little requirements you need to stay in the club,
> > and besides it's really stupid to pay money just to watch people talk
> > on the net.
> > Not me I'll vote against it.
> >
> > Sincerely: JEEP THANG
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > > Mike,
> > >
> > > Organization is in the air again.... and I suspect that once again,
> > it shall
> > > be shot down completely.
> > >
> > > There are enough organized clubs to join here in the valley if
> > people want
> > > to join. The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer, and
> > we
> > > already have a Webmaster who is doing a fantastic job <grin>.
> > >
> > > The only way that this group will become an organized entity is if
> > you can
> > > get every single member to vote for organization... and I hate to
> > tell you
> > > this; but I'll never vote for it...put it to a vote and watch how
> > badly it
> > > gets shot down.
> > >
> > > If people want to belong to an organized group, go off and start
> > your own
> > > organized group. Call it the Arizona Jeep Club or the Arizona
> > Axlebreakers
> > > or whatever... but I suggest that people not get their hopes up to
> > high for
> > > the AZVJC to EVER become organized.
> > >
> > > Ta-Ta till next year's organizational pleas start anew...
> > >
> > >
> > > Joe West
> > >
> > > Long live Anarchy!
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:29 AM
> > > To: 'az_vjc@y...'
> > > Subject: [az_vjc] Organized Clubs
> > >
> > >
> > > To all of those that already belong to an organized club, you may
> > now
> > > delete this message (or continue reading if you're curious).
> > >
> > > For everyone here that is interested:
> > >
> > > I talked to Sandee McCullen at the cleanup in January and have
> > been trying
> > > to figure out a way to bring this up to the group. Well it looks
> > like this
> > > may be the perfect time with all that has happened in the past day
> > or so.
> > >
> > > We can make the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club an incorporated club
> > and become
> > > a member club of the Arizona State Association of 4WD Clubs WITHOUT
> > > organizing (at least not any more than we already have). Sandee
> > said that we
> > > need three "officers" and bylaws, we don't have to have membership
> > > requirements, elections, "official" club runs. All the bylaws have
> > to say
> > > is who the officers are, how new members join, and when we have
> > meetings
> > > (even if it is never).
> > >
> > > Here is the way it would work. As it is now, anyone can join the
> > AzVJC
> > > via the website and post messages to the group, this WILL NOT
> > change. What
> > > changes is, once someone has joined the AzVJC and gone on one run
> > (so we can
> > > verify that they live in Arizona and HAVE a JEEP) then they can
> > join the
> > > Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated (AzVJC Inc). All they have
> > to do is
> > > pay their dues for the year. If they want to drop out of the AzVJC
> > Inc then
> > > they just don't pay the dues; it doesn't mean that they will be
> > dropped from
> > > the website or mailing list. Nothing else changes... all we're
> > doing is
> > > adding another option for our members.
> > >
> > > Here is what I'm thinking for the incorporation:
> > >
> > > For the three officers:
> > >
> > > President - Responsible for turning in New Membership Information
> > to
> > > ASA4WDC, attend ASA4WDC meetings. (I nominate DougB if he's
> > interested)
> > > Treasurer - Responsible for collecting money from members and
> > paying
> > > ASA4WDC and Az State. (I nominate Jon Loveless, if he's interested,
> > since he
> > > already does alot with stickers, etc...)
> > > Webmaster - Responsible for maintaining the website and e-mail
> > list.
> > >
> > > How to become a New Member: 1. Join the AzVJC 2. Go on a run
> > with the
> > > AzVJC (with at least one member of the AzVJC Inc present) 3. Pay
> > Dues.
> > > That's it.
> > >
> > > How to become a Non Member: 1. Don't pay your dues.
> > >
> > > Meetings and Elections: None. If a club officer steps down,
> > he/she
> > > chooses the replacement.
> > >
> > > Dues: I am thinking since Az State has decided that clubs are
> > only
> > > allowed 2 runs per month that we just include an individual permit
> > in the
> > > cost of the dues for the year. This way members of the AzVJC Inc
> > are double
> > > covered and they won't have to remember to get one every year (like
> > me).
> > > Also included in the cost of dues would be ASA4WDC membership.
> > Because of
> > > the incorporation, we'll likely have to start paying for the
> > webspace (which
> > > we currently get for free) which is $21.25/month. We could also
> > include
> > > things like paying to get rid of advertisements on Yahoo Groups,
> > extra
> > > stickers to hand out at events, flyers, banners, etc... I estimate
> > roughly
> > > $40/year which is right in line with most clubs.
> > >
> > > The benefits are: 1. The AzVJC will be covered by the ASA4WDC
> > million
> > > dollar insurance. 2. ASA4WDC and united will get more money to
> > fight the
> > > eco-nazis. 3. The AzVJC will finally be recognized as the largest
> > club at
> > > the ASA4WDC Jamboree :) 4. I'm sure there's more but my mind is
> > drawing a
> > > blank.
> > >
> > > The downside is: 1. Paying Dues. 2. There are no other
> > downsides, other
> > > than paying dues, nothing changes, and you only have to pay dues if
> > you want
> > > to (you just remain a member of AzVJC but not AzVJC Inc).
> > >
> > > Does this make sense? I'll post a poll to find out how many may
> > be
> > > interested. The initial start up costs will depend on the number
> > of people
> > > starting the AzVJC Inc as incorporation can initially be expensive
> > ($500?)
> > > ALSO, if anyone has been through the incorporation process before,
> > we could
> > > use your assistance.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > - Mike
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44510 From: <flatfendr@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 11:40am
Subject: One last lift ?
This a.m. someone had a 1.75" lift for sale that was for a TJ. Will that work on a ZJ? Sounded like a puck lift. Do you foresee problems going up 4.75"? I just thought that since we Had it apart why not go for the nose bleed seats.
Thanks for your help
Sam