blooddrive
01-04-2004, 03:09 PM
44460-44485
44460 From: az_jeeper_mike <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:06pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> the reason I'm against this is because anytime you make rules,
No rules.. that is what are by-laws are going to say "There Are No
Rules." (well actually just the ones that ALREADY EXIST and are
POSTED ON THE WEBSITE)
> put people in positions of authority over other people... or a
> group of people, things change.
Hmmm, things change, eh? I've been the webmaster for what almost 2
years? And the group moderator for about a year? What things have
you seen change other than added features (OPTIONS) to the website?
Could I be abusive with my powers? You bet I could, but I am not. I
have not once removed a member from either the list or the website
without THEM asking me to do so. So you see someone already is
in "position of authority" as you put it.
Once again let me reiterate, this is about an OPTION pure and simple.
If you think that by not voluntarily paying dues, that this means
that you're not part of the AzVJC then by the same token if you're
not using every single feature of the AzVJC website you're not part
of the AzVJC. And I have yet to see your Rig in the Whoops section. ;)
- Mike
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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44461 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:12pm
Subject: Re: Doug Ballard is silent...
I haven't responded cause I haven't had a chance to catch up with the recent
flood of e-mails...only so many hours in the day....This one caught my eye,
though.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...>
To: "Azvjc (E-mail)" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:55 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Doug Ballard is silent...
> I see that Doug is posting, yet he remains silent on the subject of
> organization... Many posts exist in which he has stated his
> anti-organization thoughts... I hope the lure of a presidency hasn't
caused
> him to change his mind.
>
> Oh well... I have created another Arizona Virtual Jeep Club group on Yahoo
> Groups which has the name AzVJC@yahoogroups.com
> If, for some reason, there ever comes a day when this group organizes
> without at least 50% of the actual membership count voting for
organization,
> I will activate the group and those who wish to continue to be virtual can
> do so.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Joe West
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44462 From: <rioshilo@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 10:12am
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
What do you mean give everyone the option of paying dues? We already have that option without all this talk about nothing. There are plenty of other clubs that everyone could join or just donate money to.
Rio
44463 From: Eric Marble <emarble3@p...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:22pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
Rumor has it Joe's going to take his reading program to the skies to reach
more chillens.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
To: "Eric Marble" <EMarble3@p...>; "Brian Hill"
<brian@a...>; <arizonajeep@c...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> LMAO!!
>
> Chris
>
> > From: "Eric Marble" <EMarble3@p...>
> > Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:08:20 -0700
> > To: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>, <arizonajeep@c...>,
> > <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>, "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> > If it wasn't for Joes Jeep how would the little ones learn to read?
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
> > To: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>; <arizonajeep@c...>;
> > <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:46 PM
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> >> OK, that is way beyond what is called for!
> >> Do you know Joe and how many people he has helped? If not, Shut the
hell
> > up!
> >> Joe has contibuted more to this group than a large majority of the
> > members.
> >> He will drop what he is doing to help a fellow Jeeper. The fact that
you
> >> don't know this shows your ignorance.
> >> Losing Joe would be a major asset loss for this group. If you don't
know
> >> that, you have a long way to go.
> >>
> >> Chris
> >>
> >>> From: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>
> >>> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:35:53 -0700
> >>> To: arizonajeep@c..., "'Chatfield, Mike'" <Mike@A...>,
> >>> az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> >>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>>
> >>> Promise?
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> >>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:09 PM
> >>> To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> >>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>>
> >>> Mike,
> >>>
> >>> I'm not talking legal anything... I'm against ANYONE who chooses to
> > divide
> >>> (shadow... whatever word you choose to use) the Arizona Virtual Jeep
> > Club.
> >>> Unless you get a simple majority (1 vote greater than half the current
> >>> membership count) voting for this shadow club... I will believe that
it
> > was
> >>> the wrong thing to do. If you do manage to get a simple majority for
> > this
> >>> new "real" club, I will believe that it was the right thing for the
club
> > to
> >>> do... but the wrong thing for me... at which point I will silently go
> > away.
> >>>
> >>> I'm against it Mike, because I am all too familiar with the
divisiveness
> > of
> >>> "real" groups... Although you have put a great deal of time into our
> > club
> >>> webpage, it does not authorize you to take our name and give it to
> > another
> >>> group. Even the original six members voting for it cannot authorize
> > this
> >>> change... there must be a majority vote for this to be a fair and
honest
> >>> change.
> >>>
> >>> The spirit of this club will change Mike... and there is nothing you,
or
> >>> anyone else, will be able to do to stop it. We don't need rules, or
> > bylaws,
> >>> or a board of directors and incorporation... You are pressing for
> > change
> >>> which will ultimately redefine our group and I don't want this to
> > happen.
> >>>
> >>> Joe
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> >>>> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> >>>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
> >>>> entity) has legal
> >>>> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
> >>>> the AzVJC never
> >>>> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't
> >>>> own anything
> >>>> (including the copyrighted webpages).
> >>>>
> >>>> Just something to think about.
> >>>>
> >>>> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want
> >>>> to be a part
> >>>> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
> >>>> unless YOU make
> >>>> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
> >>>>
> >>>> - Mike
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> >>>> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> >>>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a
> >>>> good idea for
> >>>> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the
AZVJC....
> >>>> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
> >>>> everyone's
> >>>> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> >>>> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
> >>>> more than any
> >>>> other club currently is.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44464 From: Brian Hill <brian@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:22pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Uh-oh!
You're not going to see my Jeep there either!
-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:06 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> the reason I'm against this is because anytime you make rules,
No rules.. that is what are by-laws are going to say "There Are No
Rules." (well actually just the ones that ALREADY EXIST and are
POSTED ON THE WEBSITE)
> put people in positions of authority over other people... or a
> group of people, things change.
Hmmm, things change, eh? I've been the webmaster for what almost 2
years? And the group moderator for about a year? What things have
you seen change other than added features (OPTIONS) to the website?
Could I be abusive with my powers? You bet I could, but I am not. I
have not once removed a member from either the list or the website
without THEM asking me to do so. So you see someone already is
in "position of authority" as you put it.
Once again let me reiterate, this is about an OPTION pure and simple.
If you think that by not voluntarily paying dues, that this means
that you're not part of the AzVJC then by the same token if you're
not using every single feature of the AzVJC website you're not part
of the AzVJC. And I have yet to see your Rig in the Whoops section. ;)
- Mike
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44465 From: Jayke Thorpe <jeepboy_3@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:14pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
WHO CARES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Anyone want to get away from this and go wheelin'?
--- "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...> wrote:
> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a
> non entity) has legal
> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How
> can it, the AzVJC never
> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore
> it can't own anything
> (including the copyrighted webpages).
>
> Just something to think about.
>
> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you
> don't want to be a part
> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to
> change unless YOU make
> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS
> YOUR CHOICE.
>
> - Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that
> this is a good idea for
> those who need it... do not however, try to relate
> it to the AZVJC....
> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can
> make without everyone's
> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The
> new club must be
> separate, and must not be liked to our current
> website any more than any
> other club currently is.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
=====
S. Jayke Thorpe
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
44466 From: Brian Hill <brian@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:25pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Hee hee!
I can't believe it either. This is an easy group to stir up though. Reminds
me of back in the '70's with the CB radio fad. People were very easy to stir
up.
Seems to be lot's of very serious people here. I have yet to see any good
argument for not doing this except personal bias. Sounds like a bunch of
guys with no stars on their bellies. ;->
I suppose I am not helping matters much by stirring the pot so I'll just
stand by a while. I will reply if contacted off list however.
Brian
-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:55 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
My point once again is that this IS NOT ABOUT CHANGING THE AZVJC. It
is about GIVING AZVJC MEMBERS the OPTION to join ASA4WDC, United and
get a State Land Use Permit at a DISCOUNTED price ($5 off).
My freaking goodness people, you're acting like we're going to come
in your house and put a meter on your computer and charge you
everytime you hit the AzVJC website.
Fureak!
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "rlpeckii" <rlpii@q...> wrote:
> Mike,
> I think what Joe is saying is that it is OK to create a new club,
> just don't "affiliate" it with the AZVJC.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44467 From: az_jeeper_mike <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:18pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs
--- In az_vjc@y..., Roger Tomas <tomasr@a...> wrote:
> I think there is a fundamental flaw in what you have proposed.
> It's not clear to me how, if a "shadow club" was formed,
> the benefits extended to the "shadow club" would also be extended to
> the AZVJC.
This is why it is important to keep the same name. LEGALLY every
AzVJC run becomes an AzVJC Inc run and all participants that don't
opt to pay dues are LEGALLY "guests" of the AzVJC Inc. IN REAL LIFE,
nothing changes.
> In addition, the stipulations about formally announcing official
> club runs beforehand (as was described in a previous post)
> seems to complicate matters (if this previous information is
> accurate).
This is why I included the cost of an Individual State Land Use
Permit in the cost of the dues. This way those that OPT to
participate only pay one bill, once a year online, rather than pay 3
bills via mail or in person once a year.
Here is the breakdown:
ASA4WDC membership $18/year
UNITED free via ASA4WDC
State Land Use Permit $15/year
Misc (website fees, no advertisement fees, stickers etc...) $7/year.
Is this making more sense now, or are of the nay-sayers being closed
minded and not really reading through these e-mails?
- Mike
44468 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:24pm
Subject: Re: why CAN'T THE VJC
You can do that now by choosing the web option.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "kmichael02" <kmichael02@y...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:46 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] why CAN'T THE VJC
> Have a format like JU or Pirate 4x4...no offense but those formats
> are cooler and easier to use????
>
>
> mike
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44469 From: az_jeeper_mike <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:26pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs
The problem with other clubs is most of them require you to actually
attend meetings and runs. The AzVJC is different in that anyone can
join, even someone without a Jeep and not living in Arizona. By
giving members of the AzVJC the option to pay dues and recieve
certain benefits (ASA4WDC and United memberships, plus the AzState
Land Use Permit) it just means that they don't have to join another
club or pay each of these things individually.
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., rioshilo@a... wrote:
> What do you mean give everyone the option of paying dues? We
already have
> that option without all this talk about nothing. There are plenty
of other
> clubs that everyone could join or just donate money to.
> Rio
44470 From: Bill Mish <yldkat55@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:33pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
Now THAT was funny!
Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Marble" <emarble3@p...>
To: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>; <arizonajeep@c...>;
<az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>; "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:08 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> If it wasn't for Joes Jeep how would the little ones learn to read?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
> To: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>; <arizonajeep@c...>;
> <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> > OK, that is way beyond what is called for!
> > Do you know Joe and how many people he has helped? If not, Shut the hell
> up!
> > Joe has contibuted more to this group than a large majority of the
> members.
> > He will drop what he is doing to help a fellow Jeeper. The fact that you
> > don't know this shows your ignorance.
> > Losing Joe would be a major asset loss for this group. If you don't know
> > that, you have a long way to go.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > > From: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>
> > > Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:35:53 -0700
> > > To: arizonajeep@c..., "'Chatfield, Mike'" <Mike@A...>,
> > > az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >
> > > Promise?
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:09 PM
> > > To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >
> > > Mike,
> > >
> > > I'm not talking legal anything... I'm against ANYONE who chooses to
> divide
> > > (shadow... whatever word you choose to use) the Arizona Virtual Jeep
> Club.
> > > Unless you get a simple majority (1 vote greater than half the current
> > > membership count) voting for this shadow club... I will believe that
it
> was
> > > the wrong thing to do. If you do manage to get a simple majority for
> this
> > > new "real" club, I will believe that it was the right thing for the
club
> to
> > > do... but the wrong thing for me... at which point I will silently go
> away.
> > >
> > > I'm against it Mike, because I am all too familiar with the
divisiveness
> of
> > > "real" groups... Although you have put a great deal of time into our
> club
> > > webpage, it does not authorize you to take our name and give it to
> another
> > > group. Even the original six members voting for it cannot authorize
> this
> > > change... there must be a majority vote for this to be a fair and
honest
> > > change.
> > >
> > > The spirit of this club will change Mike... and there is nothing you,
or
> > > anyone else, will be able to do to stop it. We don't need rules, or
> bylaws,
> > > or a board of directors and incorporation... You are pressing for
> change
> > > which will ultimately redefine our group and I don't want this to
> happen.
> > >
> > > Joe
> > >
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> > >> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> > >> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> > >> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
> > >> entity) has legal
> > >> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
> > >> the AzVJC never
> > >> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't
> > >> own anything
> > >> (including the copyrighted webpages).
> > >>
> > >> Just something to think about.
> > >>
> > >> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want
> > >> to be a part
> > >> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
> > >> unless YOU make
> > >> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
> > >>
> > >> - Mike
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > >> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> > >> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > >> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a
> > >> good idea for
> > >> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the
AZVJC....
> > >> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
> > >> everyone's
> > >> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> > >> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
> > >> more than any
> > >> other club currently is.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44471 From: Mark Mesalam <m_mesalam@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:30pm
Subject: RE: More info
I voted no, but only because I have a land permit. Why can’t proof of a land permit and proof of an organized club or ASA4WDC membership suffice? The expiration date for each could be in a database in the membership. Proof could be a faxed, scanned or mailed copy. Resolving this issue would turn my vote to a yes…
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Kearney [mailto:joe@jrkearney.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:24 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] More info
I have been following these threads a while now and even gave my opinion. I am in a little of a dilemma.
I have heard Mike’s side and I have not heard too much from the people who do not want this.
I personally would like to have my opinion but I would like to hear both sides so I can get an educated (as much as I can be educated) opinion.
Can someone please try to put together both sides as unbiased as possible for all of us who have not been here before and have send this before.
I would like to hear both unbiased sides good and bad.
Joe Kearney
Joe@JRKearney.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
44472 From: az_jeeper_mike <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:32pm
Subject: Re: More info
Actually that does suffice and you don't need to fax anything or show
anything to anybody. All I am trying to do is turn those "Oops I
forgots" (see the Polls) into Yes.
The main point I'm trying to bring across here is that it is VERY
IMPORTANT for every member of the AzVJC to get the individual
memberships or join a club. If we can create an incorporated club
that makes it easier for everyone then I am willing to do the work to
set it up.
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Mark Mesalam" <m_mesalam@y...> wrote:
> I voted no, but only because I have a land permit. Why can't proof
of a
> land permit and proof of an organized club or ASA4WDC membership
suffice?
> The expiration date for each could be in a database in the
membership. Proof
> could be a faxed, scanned or mailed copy. Resolving this issue
would turn
> my vote to a yes…
44473 From: my1stjeep <my1stjeep@e...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:37pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs
I think I disagreeon this one Joe. I think what Mike is trying to do
makes sense. It gives the members who want more more, keep in mind
the more is simply dues to cover a membership in the ASA4WDC. This
shadow group would now have a voice in the ASA4WDC for voting, the
incorporation would keep members free from lawsuites, yes I said it.
I spoke with the ASA4WDC to ask as some of us want to be more
organized and want to help support groups like the ASA4WDC that help
keep our lands open. There is power in numbers, the more the ASA4WDC
can show they have users the better.
As for the lawsuites we all know many will do it when they have no
basis. A new peson goes on a trail, let us say the Crown King run,
gets to the ledge and makes a bad decision and he wants to sue
someone to cover damages to his vehicle, who does he sue? Most
likely it will be the trip leader and everyone else on the trail and
who knows if they stop there. I be the home owner that was sued when
the burglar broke into his house, was cut seriously because when the
house was built it was prior to the law that instituted safety glass,
yet the burglar won an over $10 million settlement. HOw about the
drunk motocycle driver that sued Honda for defective handles bars
causing the accident, Honda paid out. Sometimes the courts don't
support common sense, so this would be one nice safety net.
Also the group gets a State Trust Land permit that covers them on
Club runs, it also increases the numbers in thier eyes and shows
usage.
Since the suggestion does not make it manditory, will not change the
way you do things or how you participate(that would go for all the
others that want nothing to do with this option too) what is wrong
with it???????
ANd also when did it have to be absolute? We live in a democracy so
it only takes more than 50%, not each and every. I think Mike may
need to tweak it a bit or so, but giving people the option, getting
more people to comply with the law with a state trust land permit, a
voice in the ASA4WDC etc... seems like some good benefits and all of
this does not change the AZVJC unless you make the choice to join the
alternative. Where again is the down side?
Chris
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> Hi Mike,
>
> Splitting the group into two clubs will ultimately lead to the
demise of one
> or the other. I see absolutely no reason to become a "real" club
or have a
> mirror "real" club at all. Should we become real so we can be
regulated?
> Should we become real so we can have officers or pay dues? I'm
sorry, but
> the benefits of being virtual far outweigh the benefits of being
real. If
> you'd care to elaborate on the benefits you see to being real; I'd
be more
> than happy to have a nice debate with you.
>
> As far as taking the AzVJC name... ABSOLUTELY NOT! If you want to
create a
> separate group, you create it with a completely different name
(unless of
> course, EVERYONE in the club agrees to allowing our name to be used
by this
> new offshoot group).
> Your suggestion of having people join the Arizona LowRangers is a
good one.
> If anyone craves reality, this will be a good option for them and
will
> ensure that any "real" club remains absolutely separate.
>
> You've done a good job with our webpage Mike... you've invested more
> personal time than perhaps any other member of our club; for this,
I thank
> you. However, I believe your attempts to "organize" our group are
misguided
> and not at all in the interests of the majority of the people in
our club.
> This is yet another case of; if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
>
> The AZVJC isn't broke, and it doesn't need to be changed. I look
forward to
> our continued discussion...
>
> Joe
>
> >
44474 From: Clay Forrester <allvol@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:39pm
Subject: Re: Random Input
"contributing directly to ASA4WD or the BRC as an INDIVIDUAL the same, or
even better, than paying club dues" Yes, this is a GREAT way to help keep
the trails open. Sorry for the late response....just got home from work.
Clay Forrester
----- Original Message -----
From: <tandljacobson@a...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:07 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Random Input
> Message: 19
> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:59:40 -0700
> From: "Clay Forrester" <allvol@c...>
> Subject: Re: Thanks (more)........
>
> "...They will ALL be shut
> down and the land closed off.
>
>
> Zilla
>
> Except for those secret new trails that you need a small, uhh, errr, unit
to run! Only kidding!!! <bob, weave, duck incoming flames!>
>
> Regarding the other post about club membership...I tend to agree with the
folks who do not prefer to belong to additional, organized clubs. I know
people who both do and don't, but I'm not interested. But a question, isn't
contributing directly to ASA4WD or the BRC as an INDIVIDUAL the same, or
even better, than paying club dues, of which only a portion go to land
access groups?
>
> And a quick jab to Stu - if you start going by "Timber Chucker", you're
gonna have to disregard all your own advice since it's coming from a "screen
name"! ;-)
>
> Finally...is anyone thinking about a rock-unstacking run for an FJ trail
yet? Upper WP? Ajax? Might try to get in on the Terminator cleanup, but
have never run it...minimum Jeep requirements?
>
> TJ (errr, Tom Jacobson)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44475 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:42pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
"...noise he has made today in a negative way"?
I have been on my best behavior... passionate perhaps, but I think I've kept
it impersonal.
Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:09 PM
> To: Chris Krieg; arizonajeep@c...; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> The fact that he has helped a lot of others is good. The fact
> that he is so
> sensitive is not. The fact that you come to his aid is a nice
> touch too. But
> after the noise he has made today in a negative way, who cares?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:47 PM
> To: Brian Hill; arizonajeep@c...; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
> OK, that is way beyond what is called for!
> Do you know Joe and how many people he has helped? If not,
> Shut the hell up!
> Joe has contibuted more to this group than a large majority
> of the members.
> He will drop what he is doing to help a fellow Jeeper. The
> fact that you
> don't know this shows your ignorance.
> Losing Joe would be a major asset loss for this group. If you
> don't know
> that, you have a long way to go.
>
> Chris
>
> > From: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>
> > Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:35:53 -0700
> > To: arizonajeep@c..., "'Chatfield, Mike'" <Mike@A...>,
> > az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> > Promise?
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:09 PM
> > To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> > I'm not talking legal anything... I'm against ANYONE who
> chooses to divide
> > (shadow... whatever word you choose to use) the Arizona
> Virtual Jeep Club.
> > Unless you get a simple majority (1 vote greater than half
> the current
> > membership count) voting for this shadow club... I will
> believe that it
> was
> > the wrong thing to do. If you do manage to get a simple
> majority for this
> > new "real" club, I will believe that it was the right thing
> for the club
> to
> > do... but the wrong thing for me... at which point I will
> silently go
> away.
> >
> > I'm against it Mike, because I am all too familiar with the
> divisiveness
> of
> > "real" groups... Although you have put a great deal of time
> into our club
> > webpage, it does not authorize you to take our name and
> give it to another
> > group. Even the original six members voting for it cannot
> authorize this
> > change... there must be a majority vote for this to be a
> fair and honest
> > change.
> >
> > The spirit of this club will change Mike... and there is
> nothing you, or
> > anyone else, will be able to do to stop it. We don't need rules, or
> bylaws,
> > or a board of directors and incorporation... You are
> pressing for change
> > which will ultimately redefine our group and I don't want
> this to happen.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> >> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> >> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> >> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>
> >>
> >> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
> >> entity) has legal
> >> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
> >> the AzVJC never
> >> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't
> >> own anything
> >> (including the copyrighted webpages).
> >>
> >> Just something to think about.
> >>
> >> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want
> >> to be a part
> >> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
> >> unless YOU make
> >> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
> >>
> >> - Mike
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> >> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> >> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> >> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>
> >>
> >> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a
> >> good idea for
> >> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to
> the AZVJC....
> >> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
> >> everyone's
> >> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new
> club must be
> >> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
> >> more than any
> >> other club currently is.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44476 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:43pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Fureak?
Is that the name of your new club?
<grin>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:55 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> My point once again is that this IS NOT ABOUT CHANGING THE AZVJC. It
> is about GIVING AZVJC MEMBERS the OPTION to join ASA4WDC, United and
> get a State Land Use Permit at a DISCOUNTED price ($5 off).
>
> My freaking goodness people, you're acting like we're going to come
> in your house and put a meter on your computer and charge you
> everytime you hit the AzVJC website.
>
> Fureak!
>
> - Mike
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "rlpeckii" <rlpii@q...> wrote:
> > Mike,
> > I think what Joe is saying is that it is OK to create a new club,
> > just don't "affiliate" it with the AZVJC.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44478 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:46pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Mike,
I foresee some bickering. Maybe over those that are allowed to run with the
inc. runs and stuff. Or the confusion over which of the two takes credit for
cleanups or whatnot (not that I would care a clean up is a clean up and the
more the better.)
Because as you said the inc. club would reap a few more benefits on the
trail.
Just some thought to throw out there.
I think it would be a great idea and I would sign up no problem. but that
could change as I think about the possibilities.
It
Joey K
93YJ
www.desertjeep.com
-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:53 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Joe,
I think you missed the point here. The idea is not to change the
AzVJC as it is, but in essence to create a 2nd club, a shadow club.
The AzVJC will remain unchanged, people will still come and go as
they please, there will still be no dues, no elections, no rules,
just as it is now. However, members of the AzVJC will have the
OPTION to join the 2nd club and the only requirement that is
different is that they will need to pay dues; in addition, the
other "requirements" (ie. live in Az, own a Jeep) will simply be
enforced.
I agree that the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club does not need anything
else. However, offering the OPTION of joining a "Real" club that is a
shadow of the Az "Virtual" JC, I can only see this as a good thing
for both the individuals and our sport in general. Once again to be
part of the AzVJC, nothing changes. To join the shadow club, you
simply need to pay dues.
I thought alot about the name for the 2nd group. And even though the
V stands for "Virtual," I really think it should be the same name.
Any other name wouldn't fit right "Arizona Real Jeep Club", "Arizona
Jeep Club" and besides, then I'd have to create a whole new website
(www.AzRJC.org or www.AzJC.org).
Again this isn't an effort to ORGANIZE the AzVJC, it is an effort to
provide the membership of the AzVJC another OPTION. And I disagree
that the entire AzVJC membership would have to approve of such a
thing, those that don't approve or don't want to don't have to join
the shadow club. All we need is enough interest to see it through
and enough initial members to split the costs of incorporation.
I could even add a field to the Member Profiles called "Affiliated
Club" in which members could put whatever "real" club they belong to.
I suspect that alot of AzVJC members are members of the Az Lo-Rangers
as well.
The bottom line here is that I'm trying to make it easy for members
of the AzVJC to join and maintain membership of an "organized club."
The idea is to provide a webpage where they can pay their dues via
PayPal and be done with it. No meetings to attend no check to write
and mail, just an online payment. If the AzVJC shadow club doesn't
interest anyone, would the membership of the Az LowRangers perhaps be
willing to let our members join "On-Line" and pay their dues via
PayPal? Since the Az-Low Rangers rules are very similiar to the
AzVJC's anyhow.
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44479 From: Clay Forrester <allvol@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:45pm
Subject: Re: Re: Note from author of "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers"
If YOU do not go to land issue meetings and are not a member of ANY
origination, nor go to ANY clean-ups.....That warm cushy feeling YOU have
about 4-wheelin' is only good for YOU.....no one else. And btw, the rules of
public land use apply to YOU the same as it does for clubs........ All this
pissing and moaning for a lousy 25 bucks a year.....Geeeessse!
Clay Forrester
----- Original Message -----
From: "wishmaaker" <wishmaaker@y...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 10:23 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Note from author of "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers"
> You know lately it seems that a lot of folks are getting the kicks
> addressing the AzVjc in a
> negative way. I don't think a lot of these people come to the table
> with enough knowledge about
> the group to even suggest that we do nothing to preserve our Az public
> lands. I have only been a
> member since Nov., when I purchased my TJ, and yet I feel that I have
> learned so much not only
> about my jeeps and what it can do with it, but what I can do to
> protect and preserve public and
> blm lands . You don't have to be a paid (voted in) member to any
> such club to make a
> difference. A lot of clubs use the AzVjc 1400+ members to voice and
> action many events that
> make a difference to protect our rights to use public land. I have
> lived in Arizona on and off for
> the last 15 years and have seen many closures. Its going to be tough
> to keeps the last bit of
> unclosed trails open, weather your a voted member or not, its going to
> take everyone to protect
> our resources. I am proud to be a part of this group of un-organized
> organization.
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Clay Forrester" <allvol@c...> wrote:
> > I agree.....I agree. But I hope that you understood my point also. I
> was not
> > thinking about it and I did provide my email address. Also, I think
> that I'm
> > the only black Scrambler in town with "Scramzilla" painted on the
> hood. :-)
> > I'm easy to see.
> >
> > Clay Forrester
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...>
> > To: "Clay Forrester" <allvol@c...>; "Scott Kruize"
> > <scottkruize@e...>; <az_vjc@y...>; "Eric Marble"
> > <emarble3@p...>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 9:28 PM
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Note from author of "Nearly Jeepers..Trail
> Destroyers"
> >
> >
> > > Clay,
> > >
> > > On line forums are a dime a dozen....and nameless keyboard cowboys
> that
> > post
> > > on them are even more common. I normally pay them as much
> attention as
> > the
> > > moron neighbor that lives down the street.
> > >
> > > If you have something worth saying, you have nothing to loose,
> IMO, if you
> > > back up your message with a name.
> > >
> > > If you can't get by that, then maybe you are wasting my time.
> Yes, the
> > gate
> > > does swing both ways.
> > >
> > > Stu
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Stu Olson
> > > www.stu-offroad.com
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Clay Forrester [mailto:allvol@c...]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 9:15 PM
> > > To: Scott Kruize; az_vjc@y...; Stu Olson; Eric Marble
> > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Note from author of "Nearly Jeepers..Trail
> > > Destroyers"
> > >
> > >
> > > Yeah....If they can't get by me not putting my real name.......I
> might as
> > > well quit wasting my time. Geeeessseee!
> > >
> > >
> > > Clay Forrester
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Eric Marble" <emarble3@p...>
> > > To: "Scott Kruize" <scottkruize@e...>; <az_vjc@y...>;
> > > "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 9:21 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Note from author of "Nearly Jeepers..Trail
> > Destroyers"
> > >
> > >
> > > > I thought everyone knew Scramzilla.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...>
> > > > To: "Scott Kruize" <scottkruize@e...>; <az_vjc@y...>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 9:10 PM
> > > > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Note from author of "Nearly Jeepers..Trail
> > > Destroyers"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I mentioned this to another person earlier this week,
> Scott.....a lot
> > of
> > > > > talk from behind some screen name.
> > > > >
> > > > > Basically, I view it as spam crap. It hits the bit bucket
> with a
> > touch
> > > of
> > > > > the delete key just as fast as the unwanted mortgage refinance
> junk.
> > > > >
> > > > > If this irritates someone who feels compelled to use a screen
> name
> > > instead
> > > > > of their real one....well, that is your option and I am just
> > exercising
> > > > mine
> > > > > as I right this. ;) Life will go on.
> > > > >
> > > > > Timber Chucker!
> > > > >
> > > > > Stu Olson
> > > > > www.stu-offroad.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Scott Kruize [mailto:scottkruize@e...]
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 8:57 PM
> > > > > To: scramzilla; az_vjc@y...
> > > > > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Note from author of "Nearly
> Jeepers..Trail
> > > > > Destroyers"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree with you completely. One hint though...your post would
> be much
> > > > more
> > > > > credible if you poasted your real name on it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Scott K
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: scramzilla [mailto:allvol@c...]
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 1:34 PM
> > > > > To: az_vjc@y...
> > > > > Subject: [az_vjc] Note from author of "Nearly Jeepers..Trail
> > Destroyers"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Pulse found on dead horse!
> > > > >
> > > > > OK folks, I'm the guy who wrote the "Nearly Jeepers....Trail
> > > > > Destroyers" note. Although I did not link it to this group, (I
> did not
> > > > > know where it was) I'm glad somebody posted it. Now, I've read
> most of
> > > > > the messages and other than the Penis size fetish that this
> board has,
> > > > > and the over use of the phrase; "Dead horse," most of the
> discussion
> > > > > has been informative. Now with that being said, I'd like to
> address
> > > > > some of the other comments about the post and leave
> > > > > the......ahhhhhh........errrrrrrrr "other stuff" behind.
> > > > >
> > > > > My message was intended to drive home the fact that NOT every
> trail,
> > > > > is for everybody. BUT, if you absolutely must go on a trail
> that is
> > > > > MILES above your Jeeps capability and driving skill, leave the
> trail
> > > > > the way you found it!.....Its' that simple folks. Now I have
> read some
> > > > > posts that say the same thing and I applaud you. I like to
> drive on
> > > > > many types of trails......whatever mood I'm in dictates the
> trail that
> > > > > I will run....but here's the kicker; I can run then all! Yep!
> That's
> > > > > right. I built a rig that can go from 5+ to a 1. I had another
> Jeep
> > > > > that could not do the extreme trails so I built one that
> > > > > could.......because that's what I liked most.
> > > > >
> > > > > Here is the issue at hand with me in regards to the lesser
> equipped
> > > > > and inexperienced wheelers. Why in the world would I spend
> tons of
> > > > > money on my rig to make it bullet proof and make it capable of
> doing
> > > > > the extreme trails only to have it wiped out by a different
> class of
> > > > > rigs that only desire to bring it down to "their" level of
> > > > > capability????? Why waste the time and money? I could just
> wait till
> > > > > (someone else) finds the new trail. Finds the entrances and
> exits and
> > > > > map it all out for me so I can get a few of my buds with
> hammers, crow
> > > > > bars and RR-cross ties and turn a 4/5 trail into a 2/3 trail
> so "I"
> > > > > could run it..........That's not right folks!
> > > > >
> > > > > Now as far as my "Keep your mouth shut" phrase with regards to
> "not
> > > > > tell everyone" where the new trails are.......U-betcha! It's
> not gonna
> > > > > happen. Like some of you have said. "I can go on any trail I
> > > > > want."....Yep! That's right. I can't stop you but you'll have
> to find
> > > > > them first. When is the last time you heard of a new trail????
> There
> > > > > are TONS of new trails out there but the word is no longer
> getting
> > > > > out.....mostly due to the fact that lesser equipped rigs are
> > > > > DESTROYING THEM! (bypasses ect) If you ever had to help drag a
> burnt
> > > > > out bone stock Jeep off an extreme trail that some yahoo left
> > > > > there.....maybe you would respect the rating system a little
> more.
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh, one more thing. There is NO better friend to have than
> someone
> > > > > with an "Extreme rig" on trail that you just happen to be on.
> We have
> > > > > air tanks. On board welders. almost every imaginable tool at
> parts to
> > > > > fix almost every imaginable break. I even carry parts that fit
> other
> > > > > peoples rigs just in case I could be of some help to someone.
> It's a
> > > > > great feeling to help a total stranger get out of a hopeless
> situation
> > > > > with no expectation of reward.....I'm happy to help.
> BUT......After
> > > > > what just happened to the "Highway to Hell" trail, my heart is
> just
> > > > > not into like it once was.....
> > > > >
> > > > > I'll get off my soap box not but just remember, there are a
> LOT of
> > > > > Jeepers in AZ. that spend TONS of money, go to land issue
> meeting to
> > > > > keep the trails open and love to wheel and camp with our dogs
> and
> > > > > family just like you do.......But we also like to go on trails
> that
> > > > > make us feel justified in the time and expense that we
> incurred
> > > > > building what we are proud to call our own creation.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Scramzilla
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44480 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:47pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
By the way people... lest you forget; I REALLY like Mike. He's done an
incredible amount of work for this group and his web page is second to none.
Mike knows, as I know, that this really is just a difference of opinion...
it is how things in a healthy society work... it is how things in a healthy
society should work. Debate and discussion followed by change if it is
necessary, and no change if it is not.
Our founding fathers would be impressed!
<grin>
Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:06 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > the reason I'm against this is because anytime you make rules,
>
> No rules.. that is what are by-laws are going to say "There Are No
> Rules." (well actually just the ones that ALREADY EXIST and are
> POSTED ON THE WEBSITE)
>
>
> > put people in positions of authority over other people... or a
> > group of people, things change.
>
> Hmmm, things change, eh? I've been the webmaster for what almost 2
> years? And the group moderator for about a year? What things have
> you seen change other than added features (OPTIONS) to the website?
> Could I be abusive with my powers? You bet I could, but I am not. I
> have not once removed a member from either the list or the website
> without THEM asking me to do so. So you see someone already is
> in "position of authority" as you put it.
>
> Once again let me reiterate, this is about an OPTION pure and simple.
> If you think that by not voluntarily paying dues, that this means
> that you're not part of the AzVJC then by the same token if you're
> not using every single feature of the AzVJC website you're not part
> of the AzVJC. And I have yet to see your Rig in the Whoops section. ;)
>
> - Mike
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44481 From: jeepin_in_az <jeepin_in_az@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:47pm
Subject: Re: You just nailed it Mike.....
Hey Clay,
I was reading one of my older JP mags at lunch today, and happened
upon a picture of you and your scrambler. It was in the March 2001
issue, from the 27th annual Jamboree out in FJ. and boy, that is
a "nifty bungee cord cooler hanger"!!
Mike Baney
--- In az_vjc@y..., "scramzilla" <allvol@c...> wrote:
> I am spliting my sides reading this stuff. I'd like to get in on
this
> "stuff" but I'm still at work....see you tonight.
>
> Clay Forrester
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "az_jeeper_mike" <azvjc@a...> wrote:
> > My point once again is that this IS NOT ABOUT CHANGING THE AZVJC.
It
> > is about GIVING AZVJC MEMBERS the OPTION to join ASA4WDC, United
and
> > get a State Land Use Permit at a DISCOUNTED price ($5 off).
> >
> > My freaking goodness people, you're acting like we're going to
come
> > in your house and put a meter on your computer and charge you
> > everytime you hit the AzVJC website.
> >
> > Fureak!
> >
> > - Mike
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "rlpeckii" <rlpii@q...> wrote:
> > > Mike,
> > > I think what Joe is saying is that it is OK to create a new
club,
> > > just don't "affiliate" it with the AZVJC.
44482 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:48pm
Subject: RE: Organized Clubs
again?
Joey K
-----Original Message-----
From: David R. W. Withers [mailto:dr_ww@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:56 PM
To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Organized Clubs
Importance: High
Looks like my stickers are coming off!!!
Leave it alone. If I want to give money to dues, I'll give it to the ASA4wdc.
let me know when this happens so I may remove myself form the e-mail list
Sincerely
David R. W. Withers
-----Original Message-----
From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@AzChatfield.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:29 AM
To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [az_vjc] Organized Clubs
To all of those that already belong to an organized club, you may now delete this message (or continue reading if you're curious).
For everyone here that is interested:
I talked to Sandee McCullen at the cleanup in January and have been trying to figure out a way to bring this up to the group. Well it looks like this may be the perfect time with all that has happened in the past day or so.
We can make the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club an incorporated club and become a member club of the Arizona State Association of 4WD Clubs WITHOUT organizing (at least not any more than we already have). Sandee said that we need three "officers" and bylaws, we don't have to have membership requirements, elections, "official" club runs. All the bylaws have to say is who the officers are, how new members join, and when we have meetings (even if it is never).
Here is the way it would work. As it is now, anyone can join the AzVJC via the website and post messages to the group, this WILL NOT change. What changes is, once someone has joined the AzVJC and gone on one run (so we can verify that they live in Arizona and HAVE a JEEP) then they can join the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated (AzVJC Inc). All they have to do is pay their dues for the year. If they want to drop out of the AzVJC Inc then they just don't pay the dues; it doesn't mean that they will be dropped from the website or mailing list. Nothing else changes... all we're doing is adding another option for our members.
Here is what I'm thinking for the incorporation:
For the three officers:
President - Responsible for turning in New Membership Information to ASA4WDC, attend ASA4WDC meetings. (I nominate DougB if he's interested)
Treasurer - Responsible for collecting money from members and paying ASA4WDC and Az State. (I nominate Jon Loveless, if he's interested, since he already does alot with stickers, etc...)
Webmaster - Responsible for maintaining the website and e-mail list.
How to become a New Member: 1. Join the AzVJC 2. Go on a run with the AzVJC (with at least one member of the AzVJC Inc present) 3. Pay Dues. That's it.
How to become a Non Member: 1. Don't pay your dues.
Meetings and Elections: None. If a club officer steps down, he/she chooses the replacement.
Dues: I am thinking since Az State has decided that clubs are only allowed 2 runs per month that we just include an individual permit in the cost of the dues for the year. This way members of the AzVJC Inc are double covered and they won't have to remember to get one every year (like me). Also included in the cost of dues would be ASA4WDC membership. Because of the incorporation, we'll likely have to start paying for the webspace (which we currently get for free) which is $21.25/month. We could also include things like paying to get rid of advertisements on Yahoo Groups, extra stickers to hand out at events, flyers, banners, etc... I estimate roughly $40/year which is right in line with most clubs.
The benefits are: 1. The AzVJC will be covered by the ASA4WDC million dollar insurance. 2. ASA4WDC and united will get more money to fight the eco-nazis. 3. The AzVJC will finally be recognized as the largest club at the ASA4WDC Jamboree :) 4. I'm sure there's more but my mind is drawing a blank.
The downside is: 1. Paying Dues. 2. There are no other downsides, other than paying dues, nothing changes, and you only have to pay dues if you want to (you just remain a member of AzVJC but not AzVJC Inc).
Does this make sense? I'll post a poll to find out how many may be interested. The initial start up costs will depend on the number of people starting the AzVJC Inc as incorporation can initially be expensive ($500?) ALSO, if anyone has been through the incorporation process before, we could use your assistance.
Thanks,
- Mike
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
44483 From: Clay Forrester <allvol@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:47pm
Subject: Re: "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II
I can match you story for story.......There are bad apples in every bunch.
Let's not lose track here.
Clay
-- Original Message -----
From: "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...>
To: "rlpeckii" <rlpii@q...>
Cc: "az_vjc" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:59 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II
> Bob,
>
> Very well said indeed! I have participated at land use meetings and at a
> BLM open forum, I addressed the land management individuals and said
> basically the very same thing (except for the part that I've bene wheelin'
> for 40 years.....man, you are SOOOO old!) (just kidding!)
>
> Again, very nicely stated!
>
> Timber Chucker!
>
>
> Stu Olson
> www.stu-offroad.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rlpeckii [mailto:rlpii@q...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:31 AM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II
>
>
> Well, I've read most of the recent posts regarding destroying trails
> and the need to belong to an organized club to help keep the trails
> open. I just can't keep it in any longer . . . .:-)
>
> I have been wheelin for over 40 years and for the past 4 years here in
> Arizona. We have some of the best, and most accessable, trails I have
> ever seen, and I have wheeled in California, Alaska, Colorado, Utah,
> Nevada, and of course in Arizona.
>
> Recently I attended an AZVJC run out to Box Canyon and Martinez
> Canyon. For me, this was the best wheelin yet. I found the members
> to be friendly, helpful, knowledgeable, and very concerned about the
> environment. I was proud to be wheelin with these folks . . .
>
> Unfortunately, there were other folks out on this trail too. One in
> particular was a well built "crawler" (looked like a modified Blazer
> without the body), who took it upon himself to go off the trails and
> run over bushes and trees to get by the slower vehicles. We also
> encountered a group of trucks that were drinking heavily (the drivers
> where actucally the ones that were doing the drinking) and pretty much
> tore up their vehicles and the trail. In addition, we encountered a
> lone pick-up truck that couldn't even make it up Box Canyon without
> being strapped up.
>
> I guess my point is that it is not the true "Jeepers" that we have
> worry about, it is these sudo Baja Racers and Rock Crawlers that don't
> read these posts (that would be assuming that they could read), they
> don't even know that lands are being closed, much less they probably
> don't care. Just look at what has happened to Sycamore Creek.
> Everytime I venture out there, I am amazed that it is still open.
>
> I have not seen any evidence that the members of AZVJC ever knowingly
> damage the trails or the environment. While a few may be slightly
> outspoken (grin). They do a lot for our sport/hobby and I only wish I
> had more time and resources to contribute.
>
> I had a few extra cents, so there they are . . .
>
> Keep on wheelin,
> Bob
> 74 CJ-5
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44484 From: jetowle2000 <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:48pm
Subject: Re: Random Input
I thought it was better in some ways.
I thought as a group you only needed to have one permit. Thus, in the
government's eye, showing that there is only, let's say 10 groups as
aposed to 200 people. When they count they count only the permits
assigned, not the people using those permits. This gives them an
unsually low count on how many people are actually using land.
I thought Stu had brought this up once, not to drag Stu into this
muddled water.
--James
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Clay Forrester" <allvol@c...> wrote:
> "contributing directly to ASA4WD or the BRC as an INDIVIDUAL the
same, or
> even better, than paying club dues" Yes, this is a GREAT way to
help keep
> the trails open. Sorry for the late response....just got home from
work.
>
>
> Clay Forrester
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <tandljacobson@a...>
> To: <az_vjc@y...>
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:07 AM
> Subject: [az_vjc] Random Input
>
>
> > Message: 19
> > Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:59:40 -0700
> > From: "Clay Forrester" <allvol@c...>
> > Subject: Re: Thanks (more)........
> >
> > "...They will ALL be shut
> > down and the land closed off.
> >
> >
> > Zilla
> >
> > Except for those secret new trails that you need a small, uhh,
errr, unit
> to run! Only kidding!!! <bob, weave, duck incoming flames!>
> >
> > Regarding the other post about club membership...I tend to agree
with the
> folks who do not prefer to belong to additional, organized clubs.
I know
> people who both do and don't, but I'm not interested. But a
question, isn't
> contributing directly to ASA4WD or the BRC as an INDIVIDUAL the
same, or
> even better, than paying club dues, of which only a portion go to
land
> access groups?
> >
> > And a quick jab to Stu - if you start going by "Timber Chucker",
you're
> gonna have to disregard all your own advice since it's coming from
a "screen
> name"! ;-)
> >
> > Finally...is anyone thinking about a rock-unstacking run for an
FJ trail
> yet? Upper WP? Ajax? Might try to get in on the Terminator
cleanup, but
> have never run it...minimum Jeep requirements?
> >
> > TJ (errr, Tom Jacobson)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
44485 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:51pm
Subject: A free Ride... was something about organization...
Speaking of the skys...
If anyone is interested in taking a plane ride, let me know. I have lots of
practicing to do, and I'd just as soon take someone with me as not. Shoot
me an email if you'd like to take a flight over FJ or the lakes or your
house (assuming it isn't in class B airspace <grin>).
No charge... just fun. I have parachutes if you get scared.
<evil grin>
Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eric Marble [mailto:emarble3@p...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:23 PM
> To: Brian Hill; arizonajeep@c...; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com;
> Chris Krieg
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Rumor has it Joe's going to take his reading program to the
> skies to reach
> more chillens.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
> To: "Eric Marble" <EMarble3@p...>; "Brian Hill"
> <brian@a...>; <arizonajeep@c...>;
> <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> > LMAO!!
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > > From: "Eric Marble" <EMarble3@p...>
> > > Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:08:20 -0700
> > > To: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>, <arizonajeep@c...>,
> > > <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>, "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
> > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >
> > > If it wasn't for Joes Jeep how would the little ones
> learn to read?
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
> > > To: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>; <arizonajeep@c...>;
> > > <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:46 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >
> > >
> > >> OK, that is way beyond what is called for!
> > >> Do you know Joe and how many people he has helped? If
> not, Shut the
> hell
> > > up!
> > >> Joe has contibuted more to this group than a large
> majority of the
> > > members.
> > >> He will drop what he is doing to help a fellow Jeeper.
> The fact that
> you
> > >> don't know this shows your ignorance.
> > >> Losing Joe would be a major asset loss for this group.
> If you don't
> know
> > >> that, you have a long way to go.
> > >>
> > >> Chris
> > >>
> > >>> From: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>
> > >>> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:35:53 -0700
> > >>> To: arizonajeep@c..., "'Chatfield, Mike'"
> <Mike@A...>,
> > >>> az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > >>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >>>
> > >>> Promise?
> > >>>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > >>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:09 PM
> > >>> To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > >>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >>>
> > >>> Mike,
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm not talking legal anything... I'm against ANYONE
> who chooses to
> > > divide
> > >>> (shadow... whatever word you choose to use) the Arizona
> Virtual Jeep
> > > Club.
> > >>> Unless you get a simple majority (1 vote greater than
> half the current
> > >>> membership count) voting for this shadow club... I will
> believe that
> it
> > > was
> > >>> the wrong thing to do. If you do manage to get a
> simple majority for
> > > this
> > >>> new "real" club, I will believe that it was the right
> thing for the
> club
> > > to
> > >>> do... but the wrong thing for me... at which point I
> will silently go
> > > away.
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm against it Mike, because I am all too familiar with the
> divisiveness
> > > of
> > >>> "real" groups... Although you have put a great deal of
> time into our
> > > club
> > >>> webpage, it does not authorize you to take our name and
> give it to
> > > another
> > >>> group. Even the original six members voting for it
> cannot authorize
> > > this
> > >>> change... there must be a majority vote for this to be
> a fair and
> honest
> > >>> change.
> > >>>
> > >>> The spirit of this club will change Mike... and there
> is nothing you,
> or
> > >>> anyone else, will be able to do to stop it. We don't
> need rules, or
> > > bylaws,
> > >>> or a board of directors and incorporation... You are
> pressing for
> > > change
> > >>> which will ultimately redefine our group and I don't
> want this to
> > > happen.
> > >>>
> > >>> Joe
> > >>>
> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> > >>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> > >>>> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> > >>>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
> > >>>> entity) has legal
> > >>>> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
> > >>>> the AzVJC never
> > >>>> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't
> > >>>> own anything
> > >>>> (including the copyrighted webpages).
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Just something to think about.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want
> > >>>> to be a part
> > >>>> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
> > >>>> unless YOU make
> > >>>> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> - Mike
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > >>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> > >>>> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > >>>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a
> > >>>> good idea for
> > >>>> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the
> AZVJC....
> > >>>> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
> > >>>> everyone's
> > >>>> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The
> new club must be
> > >>>> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
> > >>>> more than any
> > >>>> other club currently is.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > >>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44460 From: az_jeeper_mike <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:06pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> the reason I'm against this is because anytime you make rules,
No rules.. that is what are by-laws are going to say "There Are No
Rules." (well actually just the ones that ALREADY EXIST and are
POSTED ON THE WEBSITE)
> put people in positions of authority over other people... or a
> group of people, things change.
Hmmm, things change, eh? I've been the webmaster for what almost 2
years? And the group moderator for about a year? What things have
you seen change other than added features (OPTIONS) to the website?
Could I be abusive with my powers? You bet I could, but I am not. I
have not once removed a member from either the list or the website
without THEM asking me to do so. So you see someone already is
in "position of authority" as you put it.
Once again let me reiterate, this is about an OPTION pure and simple.
If you think that by not voluntarily paying dues, that this means
that you're not part of the AzVJC then by the same token if you're
not using every single feature of the AzVJC website you're not part
of the AzVJC. And I have yet to see your Rig in the Whoops section. ;)
- Mike
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVERTISEMENT
44461 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:12pm
Subject: Re: Doug Ballard is silent...
I haven't responded cause I haven't had a chance to catch up with the recent
flood of e-mails...only so many hours in the day....This one caught my eye,
though.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...>
To: "Azvjc (E-mail)" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:55 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Doug Ballard is silent...
> I see that Doug is posting, yet he remains silent on the subject of
> organization... Many posts exist in which he has stated his
> anti-organization thoughts... I hope the lure of a presidency hasn't
caused
> him to change his mind.
>
> Oh well... I have created another Arizona Virtual Jeep Club group on Yahoo
> Groups which has the name AzVJC@yahoogroups.com
> If, for some reason, there ever comes a day when this group organizes
> without at least 50% of the actual membership count voting for
organization,
> I will activate the group and those who wish to continue to be virtual can
> do so.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Joe West
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44462 From: <rioshilo@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 10:12am
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
What do you mean give everyone the option of paying dues? We already have that option without all this talk about nothing. There are plenty of other clubs that everyone could join or just donate money to.
Rio
44463 From: Eric Marble <emarble3@p...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:22pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
Rumor has it Joe's going to take his reading program to the skies to reach
more chillens.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
To: "Eric Marble" <EMarble3@p...>; "Brian Hill"
<brian@a...>; <arizonajeep@c...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> LMAO!!
>
> Chris
>
> > From: "Eric Marble" <EMarble3@p...>
> > Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:08:20 -0700
> > To: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>, <arizonajeep@c...>,
> > <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>, "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> > If it wasn't for Joes Jeep how would the little ones learn to read?
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
> > To: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>; <arizonajeep@c...>;
> > <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:46 PM
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> >> OK, that is way beyond what is called for!
> >> Do you know Joe and how many people he has helped? If not, Shut the
hell
> > up!
> >> Joe has contibuted more to this group than a large majority of the
> > members.
> >> He will drop what he is doing to help a fellow Jeeper. The fact that
you
> >> don't know this shows your ignorance.
> >> Losing Joe would be a major asset loss for this group. If you don't
know
> >> that, you have a long way to go.
> >>
> >> Chris
> >>
> >>> From: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>
> >>> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:35:53 -0700
> >>> To: arizonajeep@c..., "'Chatfield, Mike'" <Mike@A...>,
> >>> az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> >>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>>
> >>> Promise?
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> >>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:09 PM
> >>> To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> >>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>>
> >>> Mike,
> >>>
> >>> I'm not talking legal anything... I'm against ANYONE who chooses to
> > divide
> >>> (shadow... whatever word you choose to use) the Arizona Virtual Jeep
> > Club.
> >>> Unless you get a simple majority (1 vote greater than half the current
> >>> membership count) voting for this shadow club... I will believe that
it
> > was
> >>> the wrong thing to do. If you do manage to get a simple majority for
> > this
> >>> new "real" club, I will believe that it was the right thing for the
club
> > to
> >>> do... but the wrong thing for me... at which point I will silently go
> > away.
> >>>
> >>> I'm against it Mike, because I am all too familiar with the
divisiveness
> > of
> >>> "real" groups... Although you have put a great deal of time into our
> > club
> >>> webpage, it does not authorize you to take our name and give it to
> > another
> >>> group. Even the original six members voting for it cannot authorize
> > this
> >>> change... there must be a majority vote for this to be a fair and
honest
> >>> change.
> >>>
> >>> The spirit of this club will change Mike... and there is nothing you,
or
> >>> anyone else, will be able to do to stop it. We don't need rules, or
> > bylaws,
> >>> or a board of directors and incorporation... You are pressing for
> > change
> >>> which will ultimately redefine our group and I don't want this to
> > happen.
> >>>
> >>> Joe
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> >>>> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> >>>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
> >>>> entity) has legal
> >>>> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
> >>>> the AzVJC never
> >>>> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't
> >>>> own anything
> >>>> (including the copyrighted webpages).
> >>>>
> >>>> Just something to think about.
> >>>>
> >>>> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want
> >>>> to be a part
> >>>> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
> >>>> unless YOU make
> >>>> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
> >>>>
> >>>> - Mike
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> >>>> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> >>>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a
> >>>> good idea for
> >>>> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the
AZVJC....
> >>>> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
> >>>> everyone's
> >>>> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> >>>> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
> >>>> more than any
> >>>> other club currently is.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44464 From: Brian Hill <brian@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:22pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Uh-oh!
You're not going to see my Jeep there either!
-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:06 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> the reason I'm against this is because anytime you make rules,
No rules.. that is what are by-laws are going to say "There Are No
Rules." (well actually just the ones that ALREADY EXIST and are
POSTED ON THE WEBSITE)
> put people in positions of authority over other people... or a
> group of people, things change.
Hmmm, things change, eh? I've been the webmaster for what almost 2
years? And the group moderator for about a year? What things have
you seen change other than added features (OPTIONS) to the website?
Could I be abusive with my powers? You bet I could, but I am not. I
have not once removed a member from either the list or the website
without THEM asking me to do so. So you see someone already is
in "position of authority" as you put it.
Once again let me reiterate, this is about an OPTION pure and simple.
If you think that by not voluntarily paying dues, that this means
that you're not part of the AzVJC then by the same token if you're
not using every single feature of the AzVJC website you're not part
of the AzVJC. And I have yet to see your Rig in the Whoops section. ;)
- Mike
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44465 From: Jayke Thorpe <jeepboy_3@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:14pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
WHO CARES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Anyone want to get away from this and go wheelin'?
--- "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...> wrote:
> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a
> non entity) has legal
> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How
> can it, the AzVJC never
> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore
> it can't own anything
> (including the copyrighted webpages).
>
> Just something to think about.
>
> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you
> don't want to be a part
> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to
> change unless YOU make
> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS
> YOUR CHOICE.
>
> - Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that
> this is a good idea for
> those who need it... do not however, try to relate
> it to the AZVJC....
> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can
> make without everyone's
> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The
> new club must be
> separate, and must not be liked to our current
> website any more than any
> other club currently is.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
=====
S. Jayke Thorpe
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
44466 From: Brian Hill <brian@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:25pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Hee hee!
I can't believe it either. This is an easy group to stir up though. Reminds
me of back in the '70's with the CB radio fad. People were very easy to stir
up.
Seems to be lot's of very serious people here. I have yet to see any good
argument for not doing this except personal bias. Sounds like a bunch of
guys with no stars on their bellies. ;->
I suppose I am not helping matters much by stirring the pot so I'll just
stand by a while. I will reply if contacted off list however.
Brian
-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:55 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
My point once again is that this IS NOT ABOUT CHANGING THE AZVJC. It
is about GIVING AZVJC MEMBERS the OPTION to join ASA4WDC, United and
get a State Land Use Permit at a DISCOUNTED price ($5 off).
My freaking goodness people, you're acting like we're going to come
in your house and put a meter on your computer and charge you
everytime you hit the AzVJC website.
Fureak!
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "rlpeckii" <rlpii@q...> wrote:
> Mike,
> I think what Joe is saying is that it is OK to create a new club,
> just don't "affiliate" it with the AZVJC.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44467 From: az_jeeper_mike <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:18pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs
--- In az_vjc@y..., Roger Tomas <tomasr@a...> wrote:
> I think there is a fundamental flaw in what you have proposed.
> It's not clear to me how, if a "shadow club" was formed,
> the benefits extended to the "shadow club" would also be extended to
> the AZVJC.
This is why it is important to keep the same name. LEGALLY every
AzVJC run becomes an AzVJC Inc run and all participants that don't
opt to pay dues are LEGALLY "guests" of the AzVJC Inc. IN REAL LIFE,
nothing changes.
> In addition, the stipulations about formally announcing official
> club runs beforehand (as was described in a previous post)
> seems to complicate matters (if this previous information is
> accurate).
This is why I included the cost of an Individual State Land Use
Permit in the cost of the dues. This way those that OPT to
participate only pay one bill, once a year online, rather than pay 3
bills via mail or in person once a year.
Here is the breakdown:
ASA4WDC membership $18/year
UNITED free via ASA4WDC
State Land Use Permit $15/year
Misc (website fees, no advertisement fees, stickers etc...) $7/year.
Is this making more sense now, or are of the nay-sayers being closed
minded and not really reading through these e-mails?
- Mike
44468 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:24pm
Subject: Re: why CAN'T THE VJC
You can do that now by choosing the web option.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "kmichael02" <kmichael02@y...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:46 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] why CAN'T THE VJC
> Have a format like JU or Pirate 4x4...no offense but those formats
> are cooler and easier to use????
>
>
> mike
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44469 From: az_jeeper_mike <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:26pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs
The problem with other clubs is most of them require you to actually
attend meetings and runs. The AzVJC is different in that anyone can
join, even someone without a Jeep and not living in Arizona. By
giving members of the AzVJC the option to pay dues and recieve
certain benefits (ASA4WDC and United memberships, plus the AzState
Land Use Permit) it just means that they don't have to join another
club or pay each of these things individually.
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., rioshilo@a... wrote:
> What do you mean give everyone the option of paying dues? We
already have
> that option without all this talk about nothing. There are plenty
of other
> clubs that everyone could join or just donate money to.
> Rio
44470 From: Bill Mish <yldkat55@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:33pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
Now THAT was funny!
Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Marble" <emarble3@p...>
To: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>; <arizonajeep@c...>;
<az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>; "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:08 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> If it wasn't for Joes Jeep how would the little ones learn to read?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
> To: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>; <arizonajeep@c...>;
> <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> > OK, that is way beyond what is called for!
> > Do you know Joe and how many people he has helped? If not, Shut the hell
> up!
> > Joe has contibuted more to this group than a large majority of the
> members.
> > He will drop what he is doing to help a fellow Jeeper. The fact that you
> > don't know this shows your ignorance.
> > Losing Joe would be a major asset loss for this group. If you don't know
> > that, you have a long way to go.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > > From: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>
> > > Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:35:53 -0700
> > > To: arizonajeep@c..., "'Chatfield, Mike'" <Mike@A...>,
> > > az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >
> > > Promise?
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:09 PM
> > > To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >
> > > Mike,
> > >
> > > I'm not talking legal anything... I'm against ANYONE who chooses to
> divide
> > > (shadow... whatever word you choose to use) the Arizona Virtual Jeep
> Club.
> > > Unless you get a simple majority (1 vote greater than half the current
> > > membership count) voting for this shadow club... I will believe that
it
> was
> > > the wrong thing to do. If you do manage to get a simple majority for
> this
> > > new "real" club, I will believe that it was the right thing for the
club
> to
> > > do... but the wrong thing for me... at which point I will silently go
> away.
> > >
> > > I'm against it Mike, because I am all too familiar with the
divisiveness
> of
> > > "real" groups... Although you have put a great deal of time into our
> club
> > > webpage, it does not authorize you to take our name and give it to
> another
> > > group. Even the original six members voting for it cannot authorize
> this
> > > change... there must be a majority vote for this to be a fair and
honest
> > > change.
> > >
> > > The spirit of this club will change Mike... and there is nothing you,
or
> > > anyone else, will be able to do to stop it. We don't need rules, or
> bylaws,
> > > or a board of directors and incorporation... You are pressing for
> change
> > > which will ultimately redefine our group and I don't want this to
> happen.
> > >
> > > Joe
> > >
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> > >> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> > >> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> > >> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
> > >> entity) has legal
> > >> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
> > >> the AzVJC never
> > >> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't
> > >> own anything
> > >> (including the copyrighted webpages).
> > >>
> > >> Just something to think about.
> > >>
> > >> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want
> > >> to be a part
> > >> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
> > >> unless YOU make
> > >> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
> > >>
> > >> - Mike
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > >> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> > >> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > >> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a
> > >> good idea for
> > >> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the
AZVJC....
> > >> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
> > >> everyone's
> > >> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> > >> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
> > >> more than any
> > >> other club currently is.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44471 From: Mark Mesalam <m_mesalam@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:30pm
Subject: RE: More info
I voted no, but only because I have a land permit. Why can’t proof of a land permit and proof of an organized club or ASA4WDC membership suffice? The expiration date for each could be in a database in the membership. Proof could be a faxed, scanned or mailed copy. Resolving this issue would turn my vote to a yes…
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Kearney [mailto:joe@jrkearney.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:24 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] More info
I have been following these threads a while now and even gave my opinion. I am in a little of a dilemma.
I have heard Mike’s side and I have not heard too much from the people who do not want this.
I personally would like to have my opinion but I would like to hear both sides so I can get an educated (as much as I can be educated) opinion.
Can someone please try to put together both sides as unbiased as possible for all of us who have not been here before and have send this before.
I would like to hear both unbiased sides good and bad.
Joe Kearney
Joe@JRKearney.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
44472 From: az_jeeper_mike <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:32pm
Subject: Re: More info
Actually that does suffice and you don't need to fax anything or show
anything to anybody. All I am trying to do is turn those "Oops I
forgots" (see the Polls) into Yes.
The main point I'm trying to bring across here is that it is VERY
IMPORTANT for every member of the AzVJC to get the individual
memberships or join a club. If we can create an incorporated club
that makes it easier for everyone then I am willing to do the work to
set it up.
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Mark Mesalam" <m_mesalam@y...> wrote:
> I voted no, but only because I have a land permit. Why can't proof
of a
> land permit and proof of an organized club or ASA4WDC membership
suffice?
> The expiration date for each could be in a database in the
membership. Proof
> could be a faxed, scanned or mailed copy. Resolving this issue
would turn
> my vote to a yes…
44473 From: my1stjeep <my1stjeep@e...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:37pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs
I think I disagreeon this one Joe. I think what Mike is trying to do
makes sense. It gives the members who want more more, keep in mind
the more is simply dues to cover a membership in the ASA4WDC. This
shadow group would now have a voice in the ASA4WDC for voting, the
incorporation would keep members free from lawsuites, yes I said it.
I spoke with the ASA4WDC to ask as some of us want to be more
organized and want to help support groups like the ASA4WDC that help
keep our lands open. There is power in numbers, the more the ASA4WDC
can show they have users the better.
As for the lawsuites we all know many will do it when they have no
basis. A new peson goes on a trail, let us say the Crown King run,
gets to the ledge and makes a bad decision and he wants to sue
someone to cover damages to his vehicle, who does he sue? Most
likely it will be the trip leader and everyone else on the trail and
who knows if they stop there. I be the home owner that was sued when
the burglar broke into his house, was cut seriously because when the
house was built it was prior to the law that instituted safety glass,
yet the burglar won an over $10 million settlement. HOw about the
drunk motocycle driver that sued Honda for defective handles bars
causing the accident, Honda paid out. Sometimes the courts don't
support common sense, so this would be one nice safety net.
Also the group gets a State Trust Land permit that covers them on
Club runs, it also increases the numbers in thier eyes and shows
usage.
Since the suggestion does not make it manditory, will not change the
way you do things or how you participate(that would go for all the
others that want nothing to do with this option too) what is wrong
with it???????
ANd also when did it have to be absolute? We live in a democracy so
it only takes more than 50%, not each and every. I think Mike may
need to tweak it a bit or so, but giving people the option, getting
more people to comply with the law with a state trust land permit, a
voice in the ASA4WDC etc... seems like some good benefits and all of
this does not change the AZVJC unless you make the choice to join the
alternative. Where again is the down side?
Chris
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> Hi Mike,
>
> Splitting the group into two clubs will ultimately lead to the
demise of one
> or the other. I see absolutely no reason to become a "real" club
or have a
> mirror "real" club at all. Should we become real so we can be
regulated?
> Should we become real so we can have officers or pay dues? I'm
sorry, but
> the benefits of being virtual far outweigh the benefits of being
real. If
> you'd care to elaborate on the benefits you see to being real; I'd
be more
> than happy to have a nice debate with you.
>
> As far as taking the AzVJC name... ABSOLUTELY NOT! If you want to
create a
> separate group, you create it with a completely different name
(unless of
> course, EVERYONE in the club agrees to allowing our name to be used
by this
> new offshoot group).
> Your suggestion of having people join the Arizona LowRangers is a
good one.
> If anyone craves reality, this will be a good option for them and
will
> ensure that any "real" club remains absolutely separate.
>
> You've done a good job with our webpage Mike... you've invested more
> personal time than perhaps any other member of our club; for this,
I thank
> you. However, I believe your attempts to "organize" our group are
misguided
> and not at all in the interests of the majority of the people in
our club.
> This is yet another case of; if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
>
> The AZVJC isn't broke, and it doesn't need to be changed. I look
forward to
> our continued discussion...
>
> Joe
>
> >
44474 From: Clay Forrester <allvol@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:39pm
Subject: Re: Random Input
"contributing directly to ASA4WD or the BRC as an INDIVIDUAL the same, or
even better, than paying club dues" Yes, this is a GREAT way to help keep
the trails open. Sorry for the late response....just got home from work.
Clay Forrester
----- Original Message -----
From: <tandljacobson@a...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:07 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Random Input
> Message: 19
> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:59:40 -0700
> From: "Clay Forrester" <allvol@c...>
> Subject: Re: Thanks (more)........
>
> "...They will ALL be shut
> down and the land closed off.
>
>
> Zilla
>
> Except for those secret new trails that you need a small, uhh, errr, unit
to run! Only kidding!!! <bob, weave, duck incoming flames!>
>
> Regarding the other post about club membership...I tend to agree with the
folks who do not prefer to belong to additional, organized clubs. I know
people who both do and don't, but I'm not interested. But a question, isn't
contributing directly to ASA4WD or the BRC as an INDIVIDUAL the same, or
even better, than paying club dues, of which only a portion go to land
access groups?
>
> And a quick jab to Stu - if you start going by "Timber Chucker", you're
gonna have to disregard all your own advice since it's coming from a "screen
name"! ;-)
>
> Finally...is anyone thinking about a rock-unstacking run for an FJ trail
yet? Upper WP? Ajax? Might try to get in on the Terminator cleanup, but
have never run it...minimum Jeep requirements?
>
> TJ (errr, Tom Jacobson)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44475 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:42pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
"...noise he has made today in a negative way"?
I have been on my best behavior... passionate perhaps, but I think I've kept
it impersonal.
Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:09 PM
> To: Chris Krieg; arizonajeep@c...; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> The fact that he has helped a lot of others is good. The fact
> that he is so
> sensitive is not. The fact that you come to his aid is a nice
> touch too. But
> after the noise he has made today in a negative way, who cares?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:47 PM
> To: Brian Hill; arizonajeep@c...; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
> OK, that is way beyond what is called for!
> Do you know Joe and how many people he has helped? If not,
> Shut the hell up!
> Joe has contibuted more to this group than a large majority
> of the members.
> He will drop what he is doing to help a fellow Jeeper. The
> fact that you
> don't know this shows your ignorance.
> Losing Joe would be a major asset loss for this group. If you
> don't know
> that, you have a long way to go.
>
> Chris
>
> > From: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>
> > Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:35:53 -0700
> > To: arizonajeep@c..., "'Chatfield, Mike'" <Mike@A...>,
> > az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> > Promise?
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:09 PM
> > To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> > I'm not talking legal anything... I'm against ANYONE who
> chooses to divide
> > (shadow... whatever word you choose to use) the Arizona
> Virtual Jeep Club.
> > Unless you get a simple majority (1 vote greater than half
> the current
> > membership count) voting for this shadow club... I will
> believe that it
> was
> > the wrong thing to do. If you do manage to get a simple
> majority for this
> > new "real" club, I will believe that it was the right thing
> for the club
> to
> > do... but the wrong thing for me... at which point I will
> silently go
> away.
> >
> > I'm against it Mike, because I am all too familiar with the
> divisiveness
> of
> > "real" groups... Although you have put a great deal of time
> into our club
> > webpage, it does not authorize you to take our name and
> give it to another
> > group. Even the original six members voting for it cannot
> authorize this
> > change... there must be a majority vote for this to be a
> fair and honest
> > change.
> >
> > The spirit of this club will change Mike... and there is
> nothing you, or
> > anyone else, will be able to do to stop it. We don't need rules, or
> bylaws,
> > or a board of directors and incorporation... You are
> pressing for change
> > which will ultimately redefine our group and I don't want
> this to happen.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> >> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> >> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> >> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>
> >>
> >> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
> >> entity) has legal
> >> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
> >> the AzVJC never
> >> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't
> >> own anything
> >> (including the copyrighted webpages).
> >>
> >> Just something to think about.
> >>
> >> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want
> >> to be a part
> >> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
> >> unless YOU make
> >> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
> >>
> >> - Mike
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> >> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> >> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> >> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>
> >>
> >> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a
> >> good idea for
> >> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to
> the AZVJC....
> >> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
> >> everyone's
> >> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new
> club must be
> >> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
> >> more than any
> >> other club currently is.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44476 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:43pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Fureak?
Is that the name of your new club?
<grin>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:55 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> My point once again is that this IS NOT ABOUT CHANGING THE AZVJC. It
> is about GIVING AZVJC MEMBERS the OPTION to join ASA4WDC, United and
> get a State Land Use Permit at a DISCOUNTED price ($5 off).
>
> My freaking goodness people, you're acting like we're going to come
> in your house and put a meter on your computer and charge you
> everytime you hit the AzVJC website.
>
> Fureak!
>
> - Mike
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "rlpeckii" <rlpii@q...> wrote:
> > Mike,
> > I think what Joe is saying is that it is OK to create a new club,
> > just don't "affiliate" it with the AZVJC.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44478 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:46pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Mike,
I foresee some bickering. Maybe over those that are allowed to run with the
inc. runs and stuff. Or the confusion over which of the two takes credit for
cleanups or whatnot (not that I would care a clean up is a clean up and the
more the better.)
Because as you said the inc. club would reap a few more benefits on the
trail.
Just some thought to throw out there.
I think it would be a great idea and I would sign up no problem. but that
could change as I think about the possibilities.
It
Joey K
93YJ
www.desertjeep.com
-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:53 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Joe,
I think you missed the point here. The idea is not to change the
AzVJC as it is, but in essence to create a 2nd club, a shadow club.
The AzVJC will remain unchanged, people will still come and go as
they please, there will still be no dues, no elections, no rules,
just as it is now. However, members of the AzVJC will have the
OPTION to join the 2nd club and the only requirement that is
different is that they will need to pay dues; in addition, the
other "requirements" (ie. live in Az, own a Jeep) will simply be
enforced.
I agree that the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club does not need anything
else. However, offering the OPTION of joining a "Real" club that is a
shadow of the Az "Virtual" JC, I can only see this as a good thing
for both the individuals and our sport in general. Once again to be
part of the AzVJC, nothing changes. To join the shadow club, you
simply need to pay dues.
I thought alot about the name for the 2nd group. And even though the
V stands for "Virtual," I really think it should be the same name.
Any other name wouldn't fit right "Arizona Real Jeep Club", "Arizona
Jeep Club" and besides, then I'd have to create a whole new website
(www.AzRJC.org or www.AzJC.org).
Again this isn't an effort to ORGANIZE the AzVJC, it is an effort to
provide the membership of the AzVJC another OPTION. And I disagree
that the entire AzVJC membership would have to approve of such a
thing, those that don't approve or don't want to don't have to join
the shadow club. All we need is enough interest to see it through
and enough initial members to split the costs of incorporation.
I could even add a field to the Member Profiles called "Affiliated
Club" in which members could put whatever "real" club they belong to.
I suspect that alot of AzVJC members are members of the Az Lo-Rangers
as well.
The bottom line here is that I'm trying to make it easy for members
of the AzVJC to join and maintain membership of an "organized club."
The idea is to provide a webpage where they can pay their dues via
PayPal and be done with it. No meetings to attend no check to write
and mail, just an online payment. If the AzVJC shadow club doesn't
interest anyone, would the membership of the Az LowRangers perhaps be
willing to let our members join "On-Line" and pay their dues via
PayPal? Since the Az-Low Rangers rules are very similiar to the
AzVJC's anyhow.
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44479 From: Clay Forrester <allvol@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:45pm
Subject: Re: Re: Note from author of "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers"
If YOU do not go to land issue meetings and are not a member of ANY
origination, nor go to ANY clean-ups.....That warm cushy feeling YOU have
about 4-wheelin' is only good for YOU.....no one else. And btw, the rules of
public land use apply to YOU the same as it does for clubs........ All this
pissing and moaning for a lousy 25 bucks a year.....Geeeessse!
Clay Forrester
----- Original Message -----
From: "wishmaaker" <wishmaaker@y...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 10:23 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Note from author of "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers"
> You know lately it seems that a lot of folks are getting the kicks
> addressing the AzVjc in a
> negative way. I don't think a lot of these people come to the table
> with enough knowledge about
> the group to even suggest that we do nothing to preserve our Az public
> lands. I have only been a
> member since Nov., when I purchased my TJ, and yet I feel that I have
> learned so much not only
> about my jeeps and what it can do with it, but what I can do to
> protect and preserve public and
> blm lands . You don't have to be a paid (voted in) member to any
> such club to make a
> difference. A lot of clubs use the AzVjc 1400+ members to voice and
> action many events that
> make a difference to protect our rights to use public land. I have
> lived in Arizona on and off for
> the last 15 years and have seen many closures. Its going to be tough
> to keeps the last bit of
> unclosed trails open, weather your a voted member or not, its going to
> take everyone to protect
> our resources. I am proud to be a part of this group of un-organized
> organization.
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Clay Forrester" <allvol@c...> wrote:
> > I agree.....I agree. But I hope that you understood my point also. I
> was not
> > thinking about it and I did provide my email address. Also, I think
> that I'm
> > the only black Scrambler in town with "Scramzilla" painted on the
> hood. :-)
> > I'm easy to see.
> >
> > Clay Forrester
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...>
> > To: "Clay Forrester" <allvol@c...>; "Scott Kruize"
> > <scottkruize@e...>; <az_vjc@y...>; "Eric Marble"
> > <emarble3@p...>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 9:28 PM
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Note from author of "Nearly Jeepers..Trail
> Destroyers"
> >
> >
> > > Clay,
> > >
> > > On line forums are a dime a dozen....and nameless keyboard cowboys
> that
> > post
> > > on them are even more common. I normally pay them as much
> attention as
> > the
> > > moron neighbor that lives down the street.
> > >
> > > If you have something worth saying, you have nothing to loose,
> IMO, if you
> > > back up your message with a name.
> > >
> > > If you can't get by that, then maybe you are wasting my time.
> Yes, the
> > gate
> > > does swing both ways.
> > >
> > > Stu
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Stu Olson
> > > www.stu-offroad.com
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Clay Forrester [mailto:allvol@c...]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 9:15 PM
> > > To: Scott Kruize; az_vjc@y...; Stu Olson; Eric Marble
> > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Note from author of "Nearly Jeepers..Trail
> > > Destroyers"
> > >
> > >
> > > Yeah....If they can't get by me not putting my real name.......I
> might as
> > > well quit wasting my time. Geeeessseee!
> > >
> > >
> > > Clay Forrester
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Eric Marble" <emarble3@p...>
> > > To: "Scott Kruize" <scottkruize@e...>; <az_vjc@y...>;
> > > "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 9:21 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Note from author of "Nearly Jeepers..Trail
> > Destroyers"
> > >
> > >
> > > > I thought everyone knew Scramzilla.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...>
> > > > To: "Scott Kruize" <scottkruize@e...>; <az_vjc@y...>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 9:10 PM
> > > > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Note from author of "Nearly Jeepers..Trail
> > > Destroyers"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I mentioned this to another person earlier this week,
> Scott.....a lot
> > of
> > > > > talk from behind some screen name.
> > > > >
> > > > > Basically, I view it as spam crap. It hits the bit bucket
> with a
> > touch
> > > of
> > > > > the delete key just as fast as the unwanted mortgage refinance
> junk.
> > > > >
> > > > > If this irritates someone who feels compelled to use a screen
> name
> > > instead
> > > > > of their real one....well, that is your option and I am just
> > exercising
> > > > mine
> > > > > as I right this. ;) Life will go on.
> > > > >
> > > > > Timber Chucker!
> > > > >
> > > > > Stu Olson
> > > > > www.stu-offroad.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Scott Kruize [mailto:scottkruize@e...]
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 8:57 PM
> > > > > To: scramzilla; az_vjc@y...
> > > > > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Note from author of "Nearly
> Jeepers..Trail
> > > > > Destroyers"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree with you completely. One hint though...your post would
> be much
> > > > more
> > > > > credible if you poasted your real name on it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Scott K
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: scramzilla [mailto:allvol@c...]
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 1:34 PM
> > > > > To: az_vjc@y...
> > > > > Subject: [az_vjc] Note from author of "Nearly Jeepers..Trail
> > Destroyers"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Pulse found on dead horse!
> > > > >
> > > > > OK folks, I'm the guy who wrote the "Nearly Jeepers....Trail
> > > > > Destroyers" note. Although I did not link it to this group, (I
> did not
> > > > > know where it was) I'm glad somebody posted it. Now, I've read
> most of
> > > > > the messages and other than the Penis size fetish that this
> board has,
> > > > > and the over use of the phrase; "Dead horse," most of the
> discussion
> > > > > has been informative. Now with that being said, I'd like to
> address
> > > > > some of the other comments about the post and leave
> > > > > the......ahhhhhh........errrrrrrrr "other stuff" behind.
> > > > >
> > > > > My message was intended to drive home the fact that NOT every
> trail,
> > > > > is for everybody. BUT, if you absolutely must go on a trail
> that is
> > > > > MILES above your Jeeps capability and driving skill, leave the
> trail
> > > > > the way you found it!.....Its' that simple folks. Now I have
> read some
> > > > > posts that say the same thing and I applaud you. I like to
> drive on
> > > > > many types of trails......whatever mood I'm in dictates the
> trail that
> > > > > I will run....but here's the kicker; I can run then all! Yep!
> That's
> > > > > right. I built a rig that can go from 5+ to a 1. I had another
> Jeep
> > > > > that could not do the extreme trails so I built one that
> > > > > could.......because that's what I liked most.
> > > > >
> > > > > Here is the issue at hand with me in regards to the lesser
> equipped
> > > > > and inexperienced wheelers. Why in the world would I spend
> tons of
> > > > > money on my rig to make it bullet proof and make it capable of
> doing
> > > > > the extreme trails only to have it wiped out by a different
> class of
> > > > > rigs that only desire to bring it down to "their" level of
> > > > > capability????? Why waste the time and money? I could just
> wait till
> > > > > (someone else) finds the new trail. Finds the entrances and
> exits and
> > > > > map it all out for me so I can get a few of my buds with
> hammers, crow
> > > > > bars and RR-cross ties and turn a 4/5 trail into a 2/3 trail
> so "I"
> > > > > could run it..........That's not right folks!
> > > > >
> > > > > Now as far as my "Keep your mouth shut" phrase with regards to
> "not
> > > > > tell everyone" where the new trails are.......U-betcha! It's
> not gonna
> > > > > happen. Like some of you have said. "I can go on any trail I
> > > > > want."....Yep! That's right. I can't stop you but you'll have
> to find
> > > > > them first. When is the last time you heard of a new trail????
> There
> > > > > are TONS of new trails out there but the word is no longer
> getting
> > > > > out.....mostly due to the fact that lesser equipped rigs are
> > > > > DESTROYING THEM! (bypasses ect) If you ever had to help drag a
> burnt
> > > > > out bone stock Jeep off an extreme trail that some yahoo left
> > > > > there.....maybe you would respect the rating system a little
> more.
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh, one more thing. There is NO better friend to have than
> someone
> > > > > with an "Extreme rig" on trail that you just happen to be on.
> We have
> > > > > air tanks. On board welders. almost every imaginable tool at
> parts to
> > > > > fix almost every imaginable break. I even carry parts that fit
> other
> > > > > peoples rigs just in case I could be of some help to someone.
> It's a
> > > > > great feeling to help a total stranger get out of a hopeless
> situation
> > > > > with no expectation of reward.....I'm happy to help.
> BUT......After
> > > > > what just happened to the "Highway to Hell" trail, my heart is
> just
> > > > > not into like it once was.....
> > > > >
> > > > > I'll get off my soap box not but just remember, there are a
> LOT of
> > > > > Jeepers in AZ. that spend TONS of money, go to land issue
> meeting to
> > > > > keep the trails open and love to wheel and camp with our dogs
> and
> > > > > family just like you do.......But we also like to go on trails
> that
> > > > > make us feel justified in the time and expense that we
> incurred
> > > > > building what we are proud to call our own creation.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Scramzilla
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44480 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:47pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
By the way people... lest you forget; I REALLY like Mike. He's done an
incredible amount of work for this group and his web page is second to none.
Mike knows, as I know, that this really is just a difference of opinion...
it is how things in a healthy society work... it is how things in a healthy
society should work. Debate and discussion followed by change if it is
necessary, and no change if it is not.
Our founding fathers would be impressed!
<grin>
Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:06 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > the reason I'm against this is because anytime you make rules,
>
> No rules.. that is what are by-laws are going to say "There Are No
> Rules." (well actually just the ones that ALREADY EXIST and are
> POSTED ON THE WEBSITE)
>
>
> > put people in positions of authority over other people... or a
> > group of people, things change.
>
> Hmmm, things change, eh? I've been the webmaster for what almost 2
> years? And the group moderator for about a year? What things have
> you seen change other than added features (OPTIONS) to the website?
> Could I be abusive with my powers? You bet I could, but I am not. I
> have not once removed a member from either the list or the website
> without THEM asking me to do so. So you see someone already is
> in "position of authority" as you put it.
>
> Once again let me reiterate, this is about an OPTION pure and simple.
> If you think that by not voluntarily paying dues, that this means
> that you're not part of the AzVJC then by the same token if you're
> not using every single feature of the AzVJC website you're not part
> of the AzVJC. And I have yet to see your Rig in the Whoops section. ;)
>
> - Mike
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44481 From: jeepin_in_az <jeepin_in_az@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:47pm
Subject: Re: You just nailed it Mike.....
Hey Clay,
I was reading one of my older JP mags at lunch today, and happened
upon a picture of you and your scrambler. It was in the March 2001
issue, from the 27th annual Jamboree out in FJ. and boy, that is
a "nifty bungee cord cooler hanger"!!
Mike Baney
--- In az_vjc@y..., "scramzilla" <allvol@c...> wrote:
> I am spliting my sides reading this stuff. I'd like to get in on
this
> "stuff" but I'm still at work....see you tonight.
>
> Clay Forrester
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "az_jeeper_mike" <azvjc@a...> wrote:
> > My point once again is that this IS NOT ABOUT CHANGING THE AZVJC.
It
> > is about GIVING AZVJC MEMBERS the OPTION to join ASA4WDC, United
and
> > get a State Land Use Permit at a DISCOUNTED price ($5 off).
> >
> > My freaking goodness people, you're acting like we're going to
come
> > in your house and put a meter on your computer and charge you
> > everytime you hit the AzVJC website.
> >
> > Fureak!
> >
> > - Mike
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "rlpeckii" <rlpii@q...> wrote:
> > > Mike,
> > > I think what Joe is saying is that it is OK to create a new
club,
> > > just don't "affiliate" it with the AZVJC.
44482 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:48pm
Subject: RE: Organized Clubs
again?
Joey K
-----Original Message-----
From: David R. W. Withers [mailto:dr_ww@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:56 PM
To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Organized Clubs
Importance: High
Looks like my stickers are coming off!!!
Leave it alone. If I want to give money to dues, I'll give it to the ASA4wdc.
let me know when this happens so I may remove myself form the e-mail list
Sincerely
David R. W. Withers
-----Original Message-----
From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@AzChatfield.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:29 AM
To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [az_vjc] Organized Clubs
To all of those that already belong to an organized club, you may now delete this message (or continue reading if you're curious).
For everyone here that is interested:
I talked to Sandee McCullen at the cleanup in January and have been trying to figure out a way to bring this up to the group. Well it looks like this may be the perfect time with all that has happened in the past day or so.
We can make the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club an incorporated club and become a member club of the Arizona State Association of 4WD Clubs WITHOUT organizing (at least not any more than we already have). Sandee said that we need three "officers" and bylaws, we don't have to have membership requirements, elections, "official" club runs. All the bylaws have to say is who the officers are, how new members join, and when we have meetings (even if it is never).
Here is the way it would work. As it is now, anyone can join the AzVJC via the website and post messages to the group, this WILL NOT change. What changes is, once someone has joined the AzVJC and gone on one run (so we can verify that they live in Arizona and HAVE a JEEP) then they can join the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated (AzVJC Inc). All they have to do is pay their dues for the year. If they want to drop out of the AzVJC Inc then they just don't pay the dues; it doesn't mean that they will be dropped from the website or mailing list. Nothing else changes... all we're doing is adding another option for our members.
Here is what I'm thinking for the incorporation:
For the three officers:
President - Responsible for turning in New Membership Information to ASA4WDC, attend ASA4WDC meetings. (I nominate DougB if he's interested)
Treasurer - Responsible for collecting money from members and paying ASA4WDC and Az State. (I nominate Jon Loveless, if he's interested, since he already does alot with stickers, etc...)
Webmaster - Responsible for maintaining the website and e-mail list.
How to become a New Member: 1. Join the AzVJC 2. Go on a run with the AzVJC (with at least one member of the AzVJC Inc present) 3. Pay Dues. That's it.
How to become a Non Member: 1. Don't pay your dues.
Meetings and Elections: None. If a club officer steps down, he/she chooses the replacement.
Dues: I am thinking since Az State has decided that clubs are only allowed 2 runs per month that we just include an individual permit in the cost of the dues for the year. This way members of the AzVJC Inc are double covered and they won't have to remember to get one every year (like me). Also included in the cost of dues would be ASA4WDC membership. Because of the incorporation, we'll likely have to start paying for the webspace (which we currently get for free) which is $21.25/month. We could also include things like paying to get rid of advertisements on Yahoo Groups, extra stickers to hand out at events, flyers, banners, etc... I estimate roughly $40/year which is right in line with most clubs.
The benefits are: 1. The AzVJC will be covered by the ASA4WDC million dollar insurance. 2. ASA4WDC and united will get more money to fight the eco-nazis. 3. The AzVJC will finally be recognized as the largest club at the ASA4WDC Jamboree :) 4. I'm sure there's more but my mind is drawing a blank.
The downside is: 1. Paying Dues. 2. There are no other downsides, other than paying dues, nothing changes, and you only have to pay dues if you want to (you just remain a member of AzVJC but not AzVJC Inc).
Does this make sense? I'll post a poll to find out how many may be interested. The initial start up costs will depend on the number of people starting the AzVJC Inc as incorporation can initially be expensive ($500?) ALSO, if anyone has been through the incorporation process before, we could use your assistance.
Thanks,
- Mike
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
44483 From: Clay Forrester <allvol@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:47pm
Subject: Re: "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II
I can match you story for story.......There are bad apples in every bunch.
Let's not lose track here.
Clay
-- Original Message -----
From: "Stu Olson" <solson8@q...>
To: "rlpeckii" <rlpii@q...>
Cc: "az_vjc" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:59 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II
> Bob,
>
> Very well said indeed! I have participated at land use meetings and at a
> BLM open forum, I addressed the land management individuals and said
> basically the very same thing (except for the part that I've bene wheelin'
> for 40 years.....man, you are SOOOO old!) (just kidding!)
>
> Again, very nicely stated!
>
> Timber Chucker!
>
>
> Stu Olson
> www.stu-offroad.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rlpeckii [mailto:rlpii@q...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:31 AM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II
>
>
> Well, I've read most of the recent posts regarding destroying trails
> and the need to belong to an organized club to help keep the trails
> open. I just can't keep it in any longer . . . .:-)
>
> I have been wheelin for over 40 years and for the past 4 years here in
> Arizona. We have some of the best, and most accessable, trails I have
> ever seen, and I have wheeled in California, Alaska, Colorado, Utah,
> Nevada, and of course in Arizona.
>
> Recently I attended an AZVJC run out to Box Canyon and Martinez
> Canyon. For me, this was the best wheelin yet. I found the members
> to be friendly, helpful, knowledgeable, and very concerned about the
> environment. I was proud to be wheelin with these folks . . .
>
> Unfortunately, there were other folks out on this trail too. One in
> particular was a well built "crawler" (looked like a modified Blazer
> without the body), who took it upon himself to go off the trails and
> run over bushes and trees to get by the slower vehicles. We also
> encountered a group of trucks that were drinking heavily (the drivers
> where actucally the ones that were doing the drinking) and pretty much
> tore up their vehicles and the trail. In addition, we encountered a
> lone pick-up truck that couldn't even make it up Box Canyon without
> being strapped up.
>
> I guess my point is that it is not the true "Jeepers" that we have
> worry about, it is these sudo Baja Racers and Rock Crawlers that don't
> read these posts (that would be assuming that they could read), they
> don't even know that lands are being closed, much less they probably
> don't care. Just look at what has happened to Sycamore Creek.
> Everytime I venture out there, I am amazed that it is still open.
>
> I have not seen any evidence that the members of AZVJC ever knowingly
> damage the trails or the environment. While a few may be slightly
> outspoken (grin). They do a lot for our sport/hobby and I only wish I
> had more time and resources to contribute.
>
> I had a few extra cents, so there they are . . .
>
> Keep on wheelin,
> Bob
> 74 CJ-5
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44484 From: jetowle2000 <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:48pm
Subject: Re: Random Input
I thought it was better in some ways.
I thought as a group you only needed to have one permit. Thus, in the
government's eye, showing that there is only, let's say 10 groups as
aposed to 200 people. When they count they count only the permits
assigned, not the people using those permits. This gives them an
unsually low count on how many people are actually using land.
I thought Stu had brought this up once, not to drag Stu into this
muddled water.
--James
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Clay Forrester" <allvol@c...> wrote:
> "contributing directly to ASA4WD or the BRC as an INDIVIDUAL the
same, or
> even better, than paying club dues" Yes, this is a GREAT way to
help keep
> the trails open. Sorry for the late response....just got home from
work.
>
>
> Clay Forrester
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <tandljacobson@a...>
> To: <az_vjc@y...>
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:07 AM
> Subject: [az_vjc] Random Input
>
>
> > Message: 19
> > Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:59:40 -0700
> > From: "Clay Forrester" <allvol@c...>
> > Subject: Re: Thanks (more)........
> >
> > "...They will ALL be shut
> > down and the land closed off.
> >
> >
> > Zilla
> >
> > Except for those secret new trails that you need a small, uhh,
errr, unit
> to run! Only kidding!!! <bob, weave, duck incoming flames!>
> >
> > Regarding the other post about club membership...I tend to agree
with the
> folks who do not prefer to belong to additional, organized clubs.
I know
> people who both do and don't, but I'm not interested. But a
question, isn't
> contributing directly to ASA4WD or the BRC as an INDIVIDUAL the
same, or
> even better, than paying club dues, of which only a portion go to
land
> access groups?
> >
> > And a quick jab to Stu - if you start going by "Timber Chucker",
you're
> gonna have to disregard all your own advice since it's coming from
a "screen
> name"! ;-)
> >
> > Finally...is anyone thinking about a rock-unstacking run for an
FJ trail
> yet? Upper WP? Ajax? Might try to get in on the Terminator
cleanup, but
> have never run it...minimum Jeep requirements?
> >
> > TJ (errr, Tom Jacobson)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
44485 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:51pm
Subject: A free Ride... was something about organization...
Speaking of the skys...
If anyone is interested in taking a plane ride, let me know. I have lots of
practicing to do, and I'd just as soon take someone with me as not. Shoot
me an email if you'd like to take a flight over FJ or the lakes or your
house (assuming it isn't in class B airspace <grin>).
No charge... just fun. I have parachutes if you get scared.
<evil grin>
Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eric Marble [mailto:emarble3@p...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:23 PM
> To: Brian Hill; arizonajeep@c...; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com;
> Chris Krieg
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Rumor has it Joe's going to take his reading program to the
> skies to reach
> more chillens.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
> To: "Eric Marble" <EMarble3@p...>; "Brian Hill"
> <brian@a...>; <arizonajeep@c...>;
> <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> > LMAO!!
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > > From: "Eric Marble" <EMarble3@p...>
> > > Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:08:20 -0700
> > > To: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>, <arizonajeep@c...>,
> > > <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>, "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
> > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >
> > > If it wasn't for Joes Jeep how would the little ones
> learn to read?
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
> > > To: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>; <arizonajeep@c...>;
> > > <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:46 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >
> > >
> > >> OK, that is way beyond what is called for!
> > >> Do you know Joe and how many people he has helped? If
> not, Shut the
> hell
> > > up!
> > >> Joe has contibuted more to this group than a large
> majority of the
> > > members.
> > >> He will drop what he is doing to help a fellow Jeeper.
> The fact that
> you
> > >> don't know this shows your ignorance.
> > >> Losing Joe would be a major asset loss for this group.
> If you don't
> know
> > >> that, you have a long way to go.
> > >>
> > >> Chris
> > >>
> > >>> From: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>
> > >>> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:35:53 -0700
> > >>> To: arizonajeep@c..., "'Chatfield, Mike'"
> <Mike@A...>,
> > >>> az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > >>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >>>
> > >>> Promise?
> > >>>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > >>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:09 PM
> > >>> To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > >>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >>>
> > >>> Mike,
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm not talking legal anything... I'm against ANYONE
> who chooses to
> > > divide
> > >>> (shadow... whatever word you choose to use) the Arizona
> Virtual Jeep
> > > Club.
> > >>> Unless you get a simple majority (1 vote greater than
> half the current
> > >>> membership count) voting for this shadow club... I will
> believe that
> it
> > > was
> > >>> the wrong thing to do. If you do manage to get a
> simple majority for
> > > this
> > >>> new "real" club, I will believe that it was the right
> thing for the
> club
> > > to
> > >>> do... but the wrong thing for me... at which point I
> will silently go
> > > away.
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm against it Mike, because I am all too familiar with the
> divisiveness
> > > of
> > >>> "real" groups... Although you have put a great deal of
> time into our
> > > club
> > >>> webpage, it does not authorize you to take our name and
> give it to
> > > another
> > >>> group. Even the original six members voting for it
> cannot authorize
> > > this
> > >>> change... there must be a majority vote for this to be
> a fair and
> honest
> > >>> change.
> > >>>
> > >>> The spirit of this club will change Mike... and there
> is nothing you,
> or
> > >>> anyone else, will be able to do to stop it. We don't
> need rules, or
> > > bylaws,
> > >>> or a board of directors and incorporation... You are
> pressing for
> > > change
> > >>> which will ultimately redefine our group and I don't
> want this to
> > > happen.
> > >>>
> > >>> Joe
> > >>>
> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> > >>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> > >>>> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> > >>>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
> > >>>> entity) has legal
> > >>>> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
> > >>>> the AzVJC never
> > >>>> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't
> > >>>> own anything
> > >>>> (including the copyrighted webpages).
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Just something to think about.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want
> > >>>> to be a part
> > >>>> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
> > >>>> unless YOU make
> > >>>> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> - Mike
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > >>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> > >>>> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > >>>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a
> > >>>> good idea for
> > >>>> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the
> AZVJC....
> > >>>> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
> > >>>> everyone's
> > >>>> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The
> new club must be
> > >>>> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
> > >>>> more than any
> > >>>> other club currently is.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > >>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/