blooddrive
01-04-2004, 02:08 PM
44435-44459
44435 From: Eric Marble <emarble3@p...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:40pm
Subject: Fw: Re: Organized Clubs
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Marble" <EMarble3@p...>
To: <arizonajeep@c...>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> You may even want to have trip leaders make sure everyone in the group has
> their permit with them on runs. Because if they don't the whole group will
> get held up waiting for the one who doesn't have theirs with them while
they
> banter back and forth with the rangers. The rangers are going to hold the
> group not just the one who doesn't have the permit. Also a good way to get
> everyone involved on the environment aspect of wheeling.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...>
> To: "'Eric Marble'" <EMarble3@p...>
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:24 PM
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> > Eric,
> >
> > Absolutely! This is a MUCH better idea than creating a "real" group.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Eric Marble [mailto:EMarble3@p...]
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:31 PM
> > > To: arizonajeep@c...
> > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >
> > >
> > > Would you be for making the existing club better? Create a
> > > options page or
> > > sign up page to the ASA and BLM. explaining the importance of
> > > joining. He
> > > who pays for permits (Individual or otherwise) is a supporter
> > > of the sport.
> > > He whose doesn't is just a parasite on the back of other wheelers.
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...>
> > > To: "'Chatfield, Mike'" <Mike@A...>;
> > > <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:08 PM
> > > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >
> > >
> > > > Mike,
> > > >
> > > > I'm not talking legal anything... I'm against ANYONE who
> > > chooses to divide
> > > > (shadow... whatever word you choose to use) the Arizona
> > > Virtual Jeep Club.
> > > > Unless you get a simple majority (1 vote greater than half
> > > the current
> > > > membership count) voting for this shadow club... I will
> > > believe that it
> > > was
> > > > the wrong thing to do. If you do manage to get a simple
> > > majority for this
> > > > new "real" club, I will believe that it was the right thing
> > > for the club
> > > to
> > > > do... but the wrong thing for me... at which point I will
> > > silently go
> > > away.
> > > >
> > > > I'm against it Mike, because I am all too familiar with the
> > > divisiveness
> > > of
> > > > "real" groups... Although you have put a great deal of time
> > > into our club
> > > > webpage, it does not authorize you to take our name and
> > > give it to another
> > > > group. Even the original six members voting for it cannot
> > > authorize this
> > > > change... there must be a majority vote for this to be a
> > > fair and honest
> > > > change.
> > > >
> > > > The spirit of this club will change Mike... and there is
> > > nothing you, or
> > > > anyone else, will be able to do to stop it. We don't need rules, or
> > > bylaws,
> > > > or a board of directors and incorporation... You are
> > > pressing for change
> > > > which will ultimately redefine our group and I don't want
> > > this to happen.
> > > >
> > > > Joe
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> > > > > To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> > > > > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
> > > > > entity) has legal
> > > > > right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
> > > > > the AzVJC never
> > > > > incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't
> > > > > own anything
> > > > > (including the copyrighted webpages).
> > > > >
> > > > > Just something to think about.
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want
> > > > > to be a part
> > > > > of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
> > > > > unless YOU make
> > > > > the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
> > > > >
> > > > > - Mike
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> > > > > To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a
> > > > > good idea for
> > > > > those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to
> > > the AZVJC....
> > > > > webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
> > > > > everyone's
> > > > > authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new
> > > club must be
> > > > > separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
> > > > > more than any
> > > > > other club currently is.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVERTISEMENT
44436 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:35pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
All bow and worship the original six...
Come on Bob, let's be real. Everyone counts, and everyone's ideas and
concerns count.
You suggest that we treat our group as an modified autocracy and I suggest
we treat it as a democracy.
I like Democracy Bob... because history has shown us where autocracy
leads... by the way, I'd prefer that you not tell me to shut-up... I view
this as a bad reflection on your upbringing.
This group belongs to everyone, we have no leaders, we have no followers, we
have only 1024 members who are all absolute equals.
By the way, have you ever longed to live in Iraq?
Kind Regards,
Joe West
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert McNeeley [mailto:robert.mcneeley@p...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:26 PM
> To: 'Bill Mish'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> There is nothing like having people take something that you
> created and
> developed and were kind enough to give access to and make it
> their own. Yes
> this is my club too because I am a member. However I did not
> create it,
> develop it, and let people join it. I am not saying that becoming an
> organized group is a good or bad thing... What ever
> happens...happens. I
> will still be part of the vjc. I just think that
> everyone...yes...EVERYONE
> needs to step back and listen to what the orig 6 want.
> We all belong to this club BUT they were the ones who started
> it... and gave
> it to us. To the original 6, or what's left of them, What do
> you want???
> What do you think??? To those who were after the orig 6... shut up and
> listen... Everyone has made good comments...some have just acted butt
> hurt... So orig 6 what do you want?
>
> anyone have $.98 change?
> Robert aka Fat Bob
>
>
> From: "jeepthang87yj" <jeep_thang@h...>
> To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:53 PM
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> > Oh come on as if there isn't enough clubs that want your money
> > already, and have little requirements you need to stay in the club,
> > and besides it's really stupid to pay money just to watch
> people talk
> > on the net.
> > Not me I'll vote against it.
> >
> > Sincerely: JEEP THANG
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > > Mike,
> > >
> > > Organization is in the air again.... and I suspect that
> once again,
> > it shall
> > > be shot down completely.
> > >
> > > There are enough organized clubs to join here in the valley if
> > people want
> > > to join. The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer, and
> > we
> > > already have a Webmaster who is doing a fantastic job <grin>.
> > >
> > > The only way that this group will become an organized entity is if
> > you can
> > > get every single member to vote for organization... and I hate to
> > tell you
> > > this; but I'll never vote for it...put it to a vote and watch how
> > badly it
> > > gets shot down.
> > >
> > > If people want to belong to an organized group, go off and start
> > your own
> > > organized group. Call it the Arizona Jeep Club or the Arizona
> > Axlebreakers
> > > or whatever... but I suggest that people not get their hopes up to
> > high for
> > > the AZVJC to EVER become organized.
> > >
> > > Ta-Ta till next year's organizational pleas start anew...
> > >
> > >
> > > Joe West
> > >
> > > Long live Anarchy!
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:29 AM
> > > To: 'az_vjc@y...'
> > > Subject: [az_vjc] Organized Clubs
> > >
> > >
> > > To all of those that already belong to an organized
> club, you may
> > now
> > > delete this message (or continue reading if you're curious).
> > >
> > > For everyone here that is interested:
> > >
> > > I talked to Sandee McCullen at the cleanup in January and have
> > been trying
> > > to figure out a way to bring this up to the group. Well it looks
> > like this
> > > may be the perfect time with all that has happened in the past day
> > or so.
> > >
> > > We can make the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club an incorporated club
> > and become
> > > a member club of the Arizona State Association of 4WD
> Clubs WITHOUT
> > > organizing (at least not any more than we already have). Sandee
> > said that we
> > > need three "officers" and bylaws, we don't have to have membership
> > > requirements, elections, "official" club runs. All the
> bylaws have
> > to say
> > > is who the officers are, how new members join, and when we have
> > meetings
> > > (even if it is never).
> > >
> > > Here is the way it would work. As it is now, anyone
> can join the
> > AzVJC
> > > via the website and post messages to the group, this WILL NOT
> > change. What
> > > changes is, once someone has joined the AzVJC and gone on one run
> > (so we can
> > > verify that they live in Arizona and HAVE a JEEP) then they can
> > join the
> > > Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated (AzVJC Inc). All they have
> > to do is
> > > pay their dues for the year. If they want to drop out of the AzVJC
> > Inc then
> > > they just don't pay the dues; it doesn't mean that they will be
> > dropped from
> > > the website or mailing list. Nothing else changes... all we're
> > doing is
> > > adding another option for our members.
> > >
> > > Here is what I'm thinking for the incorporation:
> > >
> > > For the three officers:
> > >
> > > President - Responsible for turning in New Membership
> Information
> > to
> > > ASA4WDC, attend ASA4WDC meetings. (I nominate DougB if he's
> > interested)
> > > Treasurer - Responsible for collecting money from members and
> > paying
> > > ASA4WDC and Az State. (I nominate Jon Loveless, if he's
> interested,
> > since he
> > > already does alot with stickers, etc...)
> > > Webmaster - Responsible for maintaining the website and e-mail
> > list.
> > >
> > > How to become a New Member: 1. Join the AzVJC 2. Go on a run
> > with the
> > > AzVJC (with at least one member of the AzVJC Inc present) 3. Pay
> > Dues.
> > > That's it.
> > >
> > > How to become a Non Member: 1. Don't pay your dues.
> > >
> > > Meetings and Elections: None. If a club officer steps down,
> > he/she
> > > chooses the replacement.
> > >
> > > Dues: I am thinking since Az State has decided that clubs are
> > only
> > > allowed 2 runs per month that we just include an individual permit
> > in the
> > > cost of the dues for the year. This way members of the AzVJC Inc
> > are double
> > > covered and they won't have to remember to get one every
> year (like
> > me).
> > > Also included in the cost of dues would be ASA4WDC membership.
> > Because of
> > > the incorporation, we'll likely have to start paying for the
> > webspace (which
> > > we currently get for free) which is $21.25/month. We could also
> > include
> > > things like paying to get rid of advertisements on Yahoo Groups,
> > extra
> > > stickers to hand out at events, flyers, banners, etc...
> I estimate
> > roughly
> > > $40/year which is right in line with most clubs.
> > >
> > > The benefits are: 1. The AzVJC will be covered by the ASA4WDC
> > million
> > > dollar insurance. 2. ASA4WDC and united will get more money to
> > fight the
> > > eco-nazis. 3. The AzVJC will finally be recognized as the largest
> > club at
> > > the ASA4WDC Jamboree :) 4. I'm sure there's more but my mind is
> > drawing a
> > > blank.
> > >
> > > The downside is: 1. Paying Dues. 2. There are no other
> > downsides, other
> > > than paying dues, nothing changes, and you only have to
> pay dues if
> > you want
> > > to (you just remain a member of AzVJC but not AzVJC Inc).
> > >
> > > Does this make sense? I'll post a poll to find out how many may
> > be
> > > interested. The initial start up costs will depend on the number
> > of people
> > > starting the AzVJC Inc as incorporation can initially be expensive
> > ($500?)
> > > ALSO, if anyone has been through the incorporation process before,
> > we could
> > > use your assistance.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > - Mike
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44437 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:36pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Yes indeed Brian... I promise.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:36 PM
> To: arizonajeep@c...; 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Promise?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:09 PM
> To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
> Mike,
>
> I'm not talking legal anything... I'm against ANYONE who
> chooses to divide
> (shadow... whatever word you choose to use) the Arizona
> Virtual Jeep Club.
> Unless you get a simple majority (1 vote greater than half the current
> membership count) voting for this shadow club... I will
> believe that it was
> the wrong thing to do. If you do manage to get a simple
> majority for this
> new "real" club, I will believe that it was the right thing
> for the club to
> do... but the wrong thing for me... at which point I will
> silently go away.
>
> I'm against it Mike, because I am all too familiar with the
> divisiveness of
> "real" groups... Although you have put a great deal of time
> into our club
> webpage, it does not authorize you to take our name and give
> it to another
> group. Even the original six members voting for it cannot
> authorize this
> change... there must be a majority vote for this to be a fair
> and honest
> change.
>
> The spirit of this club will change Mike... and there is
> nothing you, or
> anyone else, will be able to do to stop it. We don't need
> rules, or bylaws,
> or a board of directors and incorporation... You are
> pressing for change
> which will ultimately redefine our group and I don't want
> this to happen.
>
> Joe
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> > To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> > And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
> > entity) has legal
> > right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
> > the AzVJC never
> > incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't
> > own anything
> > (including the copyrighted webpages).
> >
> > Just something to think about.
> >
> > BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want
> > to be a part
> > of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
> > unless YOU make
> > the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
> >
> > - Mike
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> > To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> > Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a
> > good idea for
> > those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to
> the AZVJC....
> > webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
> > everyone's
> > authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> > separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
> > more than any
> > other club currently is.
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44438 From: jetowle2000 <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:40pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs
I respectfully deny this proposal.
--James
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...> wrote:
> To all of those that already belong to an organized club, you may
now delete
> this message (or continue reading if you're curious).
>
> For everyone here that is interested:
>
> I talked to Sandee McCullen at the cleanup in January and have been
trying
> to figure out a way to bring this up to the group. Well it looks
like this
> may be the perfect time with all that has happened in the past day
or so.
>
> We can make the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club an incorporated club and
become a
> member club of the Arizona State Association of 4WD Clubs WITHOUT
organizing
> (at least not any more than we already have). Sandee said that we
need three
> "officers" and bylaws, we don't have to have membership
requirements,
> elections, "official" club runs. All the bylaws have to say is who
the
> officers are, how new members join, and when we have meetings (even
if it is
> never).
>
> Here is the way it would work. As it is now, anyone can join the
AzVJC via
> the website and post messages to the group, this WILL NOT change.
What
> changes is, once someone has joined the AzVJC and gone on one run
(so we can
> verify that they live in Arizona and HAVE a JEEP) then they can
join the
> Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated (AzVJC Inc). All they have
to do is
> pay their dues for the year. If they want to drop out of the AzVJC
Inc then
> they just don't pay the dues; it doesn't mean that they will be
dropped from
> the website or mailing list. Nothing else changes... all we're
doing is
> adding another option for our members.
>
> Here is what I'm thinking for the incorporation:
>
> For the three officers:
>
> President - Responsible for turning in New Membership Information to
> ASA4WDC, attend ASA4WDC meetings. (I nominate DougB if he's
interested)
> Treasurer - Responsible for collecting money from members and
paying ASA4WDC
> and Az State. (I nominate Jon Loveless, if he's interested, since
he already
> does alot with stickers, etc...)
> Webmaster - Responsible for maintaining the website and e-mail list.
>
> How to become a New Member: 1. Join the AzVJC 2. Go on a run with
the AzVJC
> (with at least one member of the AzVJC Inc present) 3. Pay Dues.
That's it.
>
> How to become a Non Member: 1. Don't pay your dues.
>
> Meetings and Elections: None. If a club officer steps down, he/she
chooses
> the replacement.
>
> Dues: I am thinking since Az State has decided that clubs are only
allowed
> 2 runs per month that we just include an individual permit in the
cost of
> the dues for the year. This way members of the AzVJC Inc are
double covered
> and they won't have to remember to get one every year (like me).
Also
> included in the cost of dues would be ASA4WDC membership. Because
of the
> incorporation, we'll likely have to start paying for the webspace
(which we
> currently get for free) which is $21.25/month. We could also
include things
> like paying to get rid of advertisements on Yahoo Groups, extra
stickers to
> hand out at events, flyers, banners, etc... I estimate roughly
$40/year
> which is right in line with most clubs.
>
> The benefits are: 1. The AzVJC will be covered by the ASA4WDC
million dollar
> insurance. 2. ASA4WDC and united will get more money to fight the
eco-nazis.
> 3. The AzVJC will finally be recognized as the largest club at the
ASA4WDC
> Jamboree :) 4. I'm sure there's more but my mind is drawing a blank.
>
> The downside is: 1. Paying Dues. 2. There are no other downsides,
other
> than paying dues, nothing changes, and you only have to pay dues if
you want
> to (you just remain a member of AzVJC but not AzVJC Inc).
>
> Does this make sense? I'll post a poll to find out how many may be
> interested. The initial start up costs will depend on the number
of people
> starting the AzVJC Inc as incorporation can initially be expensive
($500?)
> ALSO, if anyone has been through the incorporation process before,
we could
> use your assistance.
>
> Thanks,
>
> - Mike
44439 From: Eric Marble <emarble3@p...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:48pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
Joe were you a only child?
Opps did I say that out loud?
(just kidding)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...>
To: "'Robert McNeeley'" <robert.mcneeley@p...>; "'Bill Mish'"
<yldkat55@h...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:35 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> All bow and worship the original six...
>
> Come on Bob, let's be real. Everyone counts, and everyone's ideas and
> concerns count.
> You suggest that we treat our group as an modified autocracy and I suggest
> we treat it as a democracy.
> I like Democracy Bob... because history has shown us where autocracy
> leads... by the way, I'd prefer that you not tell me to shut-up... I view
> this as a bad reflection on your upbringing.
>
> This group belongs to everyone, we have no leaders, we have no followers,
we
> have only 1024 members who are all absolute equals.
>
> By the way, have you ever longed to live in Iraq?
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Joe West
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Robert McNeeley [mailto:robert.mcneeley@p...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:26 PM
> > To: 'Bill Mish'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> > There is nothing like having people take something that you
> > created and
> > developed and were kind enough to give access to and make it
> > their own. Yes
> > this is my club too because I am a member. However I did not
> > create it,
> > develop it, and let people join it. I am not saying that becoming an
> > organized group is a good or bad thing... What ever
> > happens...happens. I
> > will still be part of the vjc. I just think that
> > everyone...yes...EVERYONE
> > needs to step back and listen to what the orig 6 want.
> > We all belong to this club BUT they were the ones who started
> > it... and gave
> > it to us. To the original 6, or what's left of them, What do
> > you want???
> > What do you think??? To those who were after the orig 6... shut up and
> > listen... Everyone has made good comments...some have just acted butt
> > hurt... So orig 6 what do you want?
> >
> > anyone have $.98 change?
> > Robert aka Fat Bob
> >
> >
> > From: "jeepthang87yj" <jeep_thang@h...>
> > To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:53 PM
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> > > Oh come on as if there isn't enough clubs that want your money
> > > already, and have little requirements you need to stay in the club,
> > > and besides it's really stupid to pay money just to watch
> > people talk
> > > on the net.
> > > Not me I'll vote against it.
> > >
> > > Sincerely: JEEP THANG
> > >
> > > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > > > Mike,
> > > >
> > > > Organization is in the air again.... and I suspect that
> > once again,
> > > it shall
> > > > be shot down completely.
> > > >
> > > > There are enough organized clubs to join here in the valley if
> > > people want
> > > > to join. The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer, and
> > > we
> > > > already have a Webmaster who is doing a fantastic job <grin>.
> > > >
> > > > The only way that this group will become an organized entity is if
> > > you can
> > > > get every single member to vote for organization... and I hate to
> > > tell you
> > > > this; but I'll never vote for it...put it to a vote and watch how
> > > badly it
> > > > gets shot down.
> > > >
> > > > If people want to belong to an organized group, go off and start
> > > your own
> > > > organized group. Call it the Arizona Jeep Club or the Arizona
> > > Axlebreakers
> > > > or whatever... but I suggest that people not get their hopes up to
> > > high for
> > > > the AZVJC to EVER become organized.
> > > >
> > > > Ta-Ta till next year's organizational pleas start anew...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Joe West
> > > >
> > > > Long live Anarchy!
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:29 AM
> > > > To: 'az_vjc@y...'
> > > > Subject: [az_vjc] Organized Clubs
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To all of those that already belong to an organized
> > club, you may
> > > now
> > > > delete this message (or continue reading if you're curious).
> > > >
> > > > For everyone here that is interested:
> > > >
> > > > I talked to Sandee McCullen at the cleanup in January and have
> > > been trying
> > > > to figure out a way to bring this up to the group. Well it looks
> > > like this
> > > > may be the perfect time with all that has happened in the past day
> > > or so.
> > > >
> > > > We can make the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club an incorporated club
> > > and become
> > > > a member club of the Arizona State Association of 4WD
> > Clubs WITHOUT
> > > > organizing (at least not any more than we already have). Sandee
> > > said that we
> > > > need three "officers" and bylaws, we don't have to have membership
> > > > requirements, elections, "official" club runs. All the
> > bylaws have
> > > to say
> > > > is who the officers are, how new members join, and when we have
> > > meetings
> > > > (even if it is never).
> > > >
> > > > Here is the way it would work. As it is now, anyone
> > can join the
> > > AzVJC
> > > > via the website and post messages to the group, this WILL NOT
> > > change. What
> > > > changes is, once someone has joined the AzVJC and gone on one run
> > > (so we can
> > > > verify that they live in Arizona and HAVE a JEEP) then they can
> > > join the
> > > > Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated (AzVJC Inc). All they have
> > > to do is
> > > > pay their dues for the year. If they want to drop out of the AzVJC
> > > Inc then
> > > > they just don't pay the dues; it doesn't mean that they will be
> > > dropped from
> > > > the website or mailing list. Nothing else changes... all we're
> > > doing is
> > > > adding another option for our members.
> > > >
> > > > Here is what I'm thinking for the incorporation:
> > > >
> > > > For the three officers:
> > > >
> > > > President - Responsible for turning in New Membership
> > Information
> > > to
> > > > ASA4WDC, attend ASA4WDC meetings. (I nominate DougB if he's
> > > interested)
> > > > Treasurer - Responsible for collecting money from members and
> > > paying
> > > > ASA4WDC and Az State. (I nominate Jon Loveless, if he's
> > interested,
> > > since he
> > > > already does alot with stickers, etc...)
> > > > Webmaster - Responsible for maintaining the website and e-mail
> > > list.
> > > >
> > > > How to become a New Member: 1. Join the AzVJC 2. Go on a run
> > > with the
> > > > AzVJC (with at least one member of the AzVJC Inc present) 3. Pay
> > > Dues.
> > > > That's it.
> > > >
> > > > How to become a Non Member: 1. Don't pay your dues.
> > > >
> > > > Meetings and Elections: None. If a club officer steps down,
> > > he/she
> > > > chooses the replacement.
> > > >
> > > > Dues: I am thinking since Az State has decided that clubs are
> > > only
> > > > allowed 2 runs per month that we just include an individual permit
> > > in the
> > > > cost of the dues for the year. This way members of the AzVJC Inc
> > > are double
> > > > covered and they won't have to remember to get one every
> > year (like
> > > me).
> > > > Also included in the cost of dues would be ASA4WDC membership.
> > > Because of
> > > > the incorporation, we'll likely have to start paying for the
> > > webspace (which
> > > > we currently get for free) which is $21.25/month. We could also
> > > include
> > > > things like paying to get rid of advertisements on Yahoo Groups,
> > > extra
> > > > stickers to hand out at events, flyers, banners, etc...
> > I estimate
> > > roughly
> > > > $40/year which is right in line with most clubs.
> > > >
> > > > The benefits are: 1. The AzVJC will be covered by the ASA4WDC
> > > million
> > > > dollar insurance. 2. ASA4WDC and united will get more money to
> > > fight the
> > > > eco-nazis. 3. The AzVJC will finally be recognized as the largest
> > > club at
> > > > the ASA4WDC Jamboree :) 4. I'm sure there's more but my mind is
> > > drawing a
> > > > blank.
> > > >
> > > > The downside is: 1. Paying Dues. 2. There are no other
> > > downsides, other
> > > > than paying dues, nothing changes, and you only have to
> > pay dues if
> > > you want
> > > > to (you just remain a member of AzVJC but not AzVJC Inc).
> > > >
> > > > Does this make sense? I'll post a poll to find out how many may
> > > be
> > > > interested. The initial start up costs will depend on the number
> > > of people
> > > > starting the AzVJC Inc as incorporation can initially be expensive
> > > ($500?)
> > > > ALSO, if anyone has been through the incorporation process before,
> > > we could
> > > > use your assistance.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > - Mike
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > > Service.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44440 From: Robert McNeeley <robert.mcneeley@p...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:44pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Real as in being so uptight about an idea that people had to go and set up a
new group on yahoo just because something might change that they don't like?
That's real to me...
As far as the shut up comment most people wont take notice of "pipe down".
:) Sorry you were offended. I will take my own advice and shut up now.
Robert
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:35 PM
To: 'Robert McNeeley'; 'Bill Mish'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
All bow and worship the original six...
Come on Bob, let's be real. Everyone counts, and everyone's ideas and
concerns count.
You suggest that we treat our group as an modified autocracy and I suggest
we treat it as a democracy.
I like Democracy Bob... because history has shown us where autocracy
leads... by the way, I'd prefer that you not tell me to shut-up... I view
this as a bad reflection on your upbringing.
This group belongs to everyone, we have no leaders, we have no followers, we
have only 1024 members who are all absolute equals.
By the way, have you ever longed to live in Iraq?
Kind Regards,
Joe West
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert McNeeley [mailto:robert.mcneeley@p...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:26 PM
> To: 'Bill Mish'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> There is nothing like having people take something that you
> created and
> developed and were kind enough to give access to and make it
> their own. Yes
> this is my club too because I am a member. However I did not
> create it,
> develop it, and let people join it. I am not saying that becoming an
> organized group is a good or bad thing... What ever
> happens...happens. I
> will still be part of the vjc. I just think that
> everyone...yes...EVERYONE
> needs to step back and listen to what the orig 6 want.
> We all belong to this club BUT they were the ones who started
> it... and gave
> it to us. To the original 6, or what's left of them, What do
> you want???
> What do you think??? To those who were after the orig 6... shut up and
> listen... Everyone has made good comments...some have just acted butt
> hurt... So orig 6 what do you want?
>
> anyone have $.98 change?
> Robert aka Fat Bob
>
>
> From: "jeepthang87yj" <jeep_thang@h...>
> To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:53 PM
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> > Oh come on as if there isn't enough clubs that want your money
> > already, and have little requirements you need to stay in the club,
> > and besides it's really stupid to pay money just to watch
> people talk
> > on the net.
> > Not me I'll vote against it.
> >
> > Sincerely: JEEP THANG
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > > Mike,
> > >
> > > Organization is in the air again.... and I suspect that
> once again,
> > it shall
> > > be shot down completely.
> > >
> > > There are enough organized clubs to join here in the valley if
> > people want
> > > to join. The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer, and
> > we
> > > already have a Webmaster who is doing a fantastic job <grin>.
> > >
> > > The only way that this group will become an organized entity is if
> > you can
> > > get every single member to vote for organization... and I hate to
> > tell you
> > > this; but I'll never vote for it...put it to a vote and watch how
> > badly it
> > > gets shot down.
> > >
> > > If people want to belong to an organized group, go off and start
> > your own
> > > organized group. Call it the Arizona Jeep Club or the Arizona
> > Axlebreakers
> > > or whatever... but I suggest that people not get their hopes up to
> > high for
> > > the AZVJC to EVER become organized.
> > >
> > > Ta-Ta till next year's organizational pleas start anew...
> > >
> > >
> > > Joe West
> > >
> > > Long live Anarchy!
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:29 AM
> > > To: 'az_vjc@y...'
> > > Subject: [az_vjc] Organized Clubs
> > >
> > >
> > > To all of those that already belong to an organized
> club, you may
> > now
> > > delete this message (or continue reading if you're curious).
> > >
> > > For everyone here that is interested:
> > >
> > > I talked to Sandee McCullen at the cleanup in January and have
> > been trying
> > > to figure out a way to bring this up to the group. Well it looks
> > like this
> > > may be the perfect time with all that has happened in the past day
> > or so.
> > >
> > > We can make the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club an incorporated club
> > and become
> > > a member club of the Arizona State Association of 4WD
> Clubs WITHOUT
> > > organizing (at least not any more than we already have). Sandee
> > said that we
> > > need three "officers" and bylaws, we don't have to have membership
> > > requirements, elections, "official" club runs. All the
> bylaws have
> > to say
> > > is who the officers are, how new members join, and when we have
> > meetings
> > > (even if it is never).
> > >
> > > Here is the way it would work. As it is now, anyone
> can join the
> > AzVJC
> > > via the website and post messages to the group, this WILL NOT
> > change. What
> > > changes is, once someone has joined the AzVJC and gone on one run
> > (so we can
> > > verify that they live in Arizona and HAVE a JEEP) then they can
> > join the
> > > Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated (AzVJC Inc). All they have
> > to do is
> > > pay their dues for the year. If they want to drop out of the AzVJC
> > Inc then
> > > they just don't pay the dues; it doesn't mean that they will be
> > dropped from
> > > the website or mailing list. Nothing else changes... all we're
> > doing is
> > > adding another option for our members.
> > >
> > > Here is what I'm thinking for the incorporation:
> > >
> > > For the three officers:
> > >
> > > President - Responsible for turning in New Membership
> Information
> > to
> > > ASA4WDC, attend ASA4WDC meetings. (I nominate DougB if he's
> > interested)
> > > Treasurer - Responsible for collecting money from members and
> > paying
> > > ASA4WDC and Az State. (I nominate Jon Loveless, if he's
> interested,
> > since he
> > > already does alot with stickers, etc...)
> > > Webmaster - Responsible for maintaining the website and e-mail
> > list.
> > >
> > > How to become a New Member: 1. Join the AzVJC 2. Go on a run
> > with the
> > > AzVJC (with at least one member of the AzVJC Inc present) 3. Pay
> > Dues.
> > > That's it.
> > >
> > > How to become a Non Member: 1. Don't pay your dues.
> > >
> > > Meetings and Elections: None. If a club officer steps down,
> > he/she
> > > chooses the replacement.
> > >
> > > Dues: I am thinking since Az State has decided that clubs are
> > only
> > > allowed 2 runs per month that we just include an individual permit
> > in the
> > > cost of the dues for the year. This way members of the AzVJC Inc
> > are double
> > > covered and they won't have to remember to get one every
> year (like
> > me).
> > > Also included in the cost of dues would be ASA4WDC membership.
> > Because of
> > > the incorporation, we'll likely have to start paying for the
> > webspace (which
> > > we currently get for free) which is $21.25/month. We could also
> > include
> > > things like paying to get rid of advertisements on Yahoo Groups,
> > extra
> > > stickers to hand out at events, flyers, banners, etc...
> I estimate
> > roughly
> > > $40/year which is right in line with most clubs.
> > >
> > > The benefits are: 1. The AzVJC will be covered by the ASA4WDC
> > million
> > > dollar insurance. 2. ASA4WDC and united will get more money to
> > fight the
> > > eco-nazis. 3. The AzVJC will finally be recognized as the largest
> > club at
> > > the ASA4WDC Jamboree :) 4. I'm sure there's more but my mind is
> > drawing a
> > > blank.
> > >
> > > The downside is: 1. Paying Dues. 2. There are no other
> > downsides, other
> > > than paying dues, nothing changes, and you only have to
> pay dues if
> > you want
> > > to (you just remain a member of AzVJC but not AzVJC Inc).
> > >
> > > Does this make sense? I'll post a poll to find out how many may
> > be
> > > interested. The initial start up costs will depend on the number
> > of people
> > > starting the AzVJC Inc as incorporation can initially be expensive
> > ($500?)
> > > ALSO, if anyone has been through the incorporation process before,
> > we could
> > > use your assistance.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > - Mike
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44441 From: <rlpii@q...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:47pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
Yup! :-)
Joe W wrote:
> Bob,
>
> Exactly.
>
> Joe
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rlpeckii [mailto:rlpii@q...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:55 PM
> > To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> > Mike,
> > I think what Joe is saying is that it is OK to create a new
> > club, just
> > don't "affiliate" it with the AZVJC. If some of the members want to
> > get together and set up the "Organized Arizona Jeep Club" or the
> > "Official Arizona Jeep Club" that is OK. Post something on the
> > AZVJC's site that it exists, and folks can join or not join as they
> > see fit. Under those circumstances, hell, I might even join :-)
> >
> > What most of us (I hope) don't want, is to F**k up a good thing like
> > the AZVJC. You, the orginal 6 (?) and all the rest of the active
> > members have done a fantastic job of creating probably the largest
> > (member wise) group of four wheelers in the nation and
> > probably in the
> > world. There is nothing stopping current members from starting a new
> > and organized club with dues, officers, and a charter etc. And I
> > don't think there is anything stopping a AZVJCer from joining and
> > affiliating with both clubs?
> >
> > This thread is starting to get ugly, the next thing will be
> > attorneys.
> > lawsuits and counter lawsuits. Can't we all just get along? :-)
> >
> > Let's go wheelin or something?
> >
> > Bob
> > 74 CJ-5
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...> wrote:
> > > And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non entity) has
> > legal
> > > right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it, the
> > AzVJC never
> > > incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't own
> > anything
> > > (including the copyrighted webpages).
> > >
> > > Just something to think about.
> > >
> > > BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want to be
> > a part
> > > of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change unless
> > YOU make
> > > the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
> > >
> > > - Mike
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> > > To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@y...
> > > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >
> > >
> > > Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a good
> > idea for
> > > those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the
> > AZVJC....
> > > webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
> > everyone's
> > > authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> > > separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
> > more than
> > any
> > > other club currently is.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44442 From: kmichael02 <kmichael02@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:46pm
Subject: why CAN'T THE VJC
Have a format like JU or Pirate 4x4...no offense but those formats
are cooler and easier to use????
mike
44443 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:42pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
<grin>
No... I made the mistake of joining the service at age 17...
It ruined me forever on autocratic systems.
Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eric Marble [mailto:EMarble3@p...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:49 PM
> To: arizonajeep@c...; 'Robert McNeeley'; 'Bill Mish';
> az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Joe were you a only child?
> Opps did I say that out loud?
> (just kidding)
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...>
> To: "'Robert McNeeley'" <robert.mcneeley@p...>; "'Bill Mish'"
> <yldkat55@h...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:35 PM
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> > All bow and worship the original six...
> >
> > Come on Bob, let's be real. Everyone counts, and
> everyone's ideas and
> > concerns count.
> > You suggest that we treat our group as an modified
> autocracy and I suggest
> > we treat it as a democracy.
> > I like Democracy Bob... because history has shown us where autocracy
> > leads... by the way, I'd prefer that you not tell me to
> shut-up... I view
> > this as a bad reflection on your upbringing.
> >
> > This group belongs to everyone, we have no leaders, we have
> no followers,
> we
> > have only 1024 members who are all absolute equals.
> >
> > By the way, have you ever longed to live in Iraq?
> >
> > Kind Regards,
> >
> > Joe West
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Robert McNeeley [mailto:robert.mcneeley@p...]
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:26 PM
> > > To: 'Bill Mish'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >
> > >
> > > There is nothing like having people take something that you
> > > created and
> > > developed and were kind enough to give access to and make it
> > > their own. Yes
> > > this is my club too because I am a member. However I did not
> > > create it,
> > > develop it, and let people join it. I am not saying that
> becoming an
> > > organized group is a good or bad thing... What ever
> > > happens...happens. I
> > > will still be part of the vjc. I just think that
> > > everyone...yes...EVERYONE
> > > needs to step back and listen to what the orig 6 want.
> > > We all belong to this club BUT they were the ones who started
> > > it... and gave
> > > it to us. To the original 6, or what's left of them, What do
> > > you want???
> > > What do you think??? To those who were after the orig
> 6... shut up and
> > > listen... Everyone has made good comments...some have
> just acted butt
> > > hurt... So orig 6 what do you want?
> > >
> > > anyone have $.98 change?
> > > Robert aka Fat Bob
> > >
> > >
> > > From: "jeepthang87yj" <jeep_thang@h...>
> > > To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:53 PM
> > > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >
> > >
> > > > Oh come on as if there isn't enough clubs that want your money
> > > > already, and have little requirements you need to stay
> in the club,
> > > > and besides it's really stupid to pay money just to watch
> > > people talk
> > > > on the net.
> > > > Not me I'll vote against it.
> > > >
> > > > Sincerely: JEEP THANG
> > > >
> > > > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > > > > Mike,
> > > > >
> > > > > Organization is in the air again.... and I suspect that
> > > once again,
> > > > it shall
> > > > > be shot down completely.
> > > > >
> > > > > There are enough organized clubs to join here in the valley if
> > > > people want
> > > > > to join. The AZVJC does not need a President, or a
> Treasurer, and
> > > > we
> > > > > already have a Webmaster who is doing a fantastic job <grin>.
> > > > >
> > > > > The only way that this group will become an organized
> entity is if
> > > > you can
> > > > > get every single member to vote for organization...
> and I hate to
> > > > tell you
> > > > > this; but I'll never vote for it...put it to a vote
> and watch how
> > > > badly it
> > > > > gets shot down.
> > > > >
> > > > > If people want to belong to an organized group, go
> off and start
> > > > your own
> > > > > organized group. Call it the Arizona Jeep Club or the Arizona
> > > > Axlebreakers
> > > > > or whatever... but I suggest that people not get
> their hopes up to
> > > > high for
> > > > > the AZVJC to EVER become organized.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ta-Ta till next year's organizational pleas start anew...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Joe West
> > > > >
> > > > > Long live Anarchy!
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:29 AM
> > > > > To: 'az_vjc@y...'
> > > > > Subject: [az_vjc] Organized Clubs
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > To all of those that already belong to an organized
> > > club, you may
> > > > now
> > > > > delete this message (or continue reading if you're curious).
> > > > >
> > > > > For everyone here that is interested:
> > > > >
> > > > > I talked to Sandee McCullen at the cleanup in
> January and have
> > > > been trying
> > > > > to figure out a way to bring this up to the group.
> Well it looks
> > > > like this
> > > > > may be the perfect time with all that has happened in
> the past day
> > > > or so.
> > > > >
> > > > > We can make the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club an
> incorporated club
> > > > and become
> > > > > a member club of the Arizona State Association of 4WD
> > > Clubs WITHOUT
> > > > > organizing (at least not any more than we already
> have). Sandee
> > > > said that we
> > > > > need three "officers" and bylaws, we don't have to
> have membership
> > > > > requirements, elections, "official" club runs. All the
> > > bylaws have
> > > > to say
> > > > > is who the officers are, how new members join, and
> when we have
> > > > meetings
> > > > > (even if it is never).
> > > > >
> > > > > Here is the way it would work. As it is now, anyone
> > > can join the
> > > > AzVJC
> > > > > via the website and post messages to the group, this WILL NOT
> > > > change. What
> > > > > changes is, once someone has joined the AzVJC and
> gone on one run
> > > > (so we can
> > > > > verify that they live in Arizona and HAVE a JEEP)
> then they can
> > > > join the
> > > > > Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated (AzVJC Inc).
> All they have
> > > > to do is
> > > > > pay their dues for the year. If they want to drop out
> of the AzVJC
> > > > Inc then
> > > > > they just don't pay the dues; it doesn't mean that
> they will be
> > > > dropped from
> > > > > the website or mailing list. Nothing else changes...
> all we're
> > > > doing is
> > > > > adding another option for our members.
> > > > >
> > > > > Here is what I'm thinking for the incorporation:
> > > > >
> > > > > For the three officers:
> > > > >
> > > > > President - Responsible for turning in New Membership
> > > Information
> > > > to
> > > > > ASA4WDC, attend ASA4WDC meetings. (I nominate DougB if he's
> > > > interested)
> > > > > Treasurer - Responsible for collecting money from
> members and
> > > > paying
> > > > > ASA4WDC and Az State. (I nominate Jon Loveless, if he's
> > > interested,
> > > > since he
> > > > > already does alot with stickers, etc...)
> > > > > Webmaster - Responsible for maintaining the website
> and e-mail
> > > > list.
> > > > >
> > > > > How to become a New Member: 1. Join the AzVJC 2.
> Go on a run
> > > > with the
> > > > > AzVJC (with at least one member of the AzVJC Inc
> present) 3. Pay
> > > > Dues.
> > > > > That's it.
> > > > >
> > > > > How to become a Non Member: 1. Don't pay your dues.
> > > > >
> > > > > Meetings and Elections: None. If a club officer steps down,
> > > > he/she
> > > > > chooses the replacement.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dues: I am thinking since Az State has decided
> that clubs are
> > > > only
> > > > > allowed 2 runs per month that we just include an
> individual permit
> > > > in the
> > > > > cost of the dues for the year. This way members of
> the AzVJC Inc
> > > > are double
> > > > > covered and they won't have to remember to get one every
> > > year (like
> > > > me).
> > > > > Also included in the cost of dues would be ASA4WDC membership.
> > > > Because of
> > > > > the incorporation, we'll likely have to start paying for the
> > > > webspace (which
> > > > > we currently get for free) which is $21.25/month. We
> could also
> > > > include
> > > > > things like paying to get rid of advertisements on
> Yahoo Groups,
> > > > extra
> > > > > stickers to hand out at events, flyers, banners, etc...
> > > I estimate
> > > > roughly
> > > > > $40/year which is right in line with most clubs.
> > > > >
> > > > > The benefits are: 1. The AzVJC will be covered by
> the ASA4WDC
> > > > million
> > > > > dollar insurance. 2. ASA4WDC and united will get more money to
> > > > fight the
> > > > > eco-nazis. 3. The AzVJC will finally be recognized as
> the largest
> > > > club at
> > > > > the ASA4WDC Jamboree :) 4. I'm sure there's more but
> my mind is
> > > > drawing a
> > > > > blank.
> > > > >
> > > > > The downside is: 1. Paying Dues. 2. There are no other
> > > > downsides, other
> > > > > than paying dues, nothing changes, and you only have to
> > > pay dues if
> > > > you want
> > > > > to (you just remain a member of AzVJC but not AzVJC Inc).
> > > > >
> > > > > Does this make sense? I'll post a poll to find out
> how many may
> > > > be
> > > > > interested. The initial start up costs will depend
> on the number
> > > > of people
> > > > > starting the AzVJC Inc as incorporation can initially
> be expensive
> > > > ($500?)
> > > > > ALSO, if anyone has been through the incorporation
> process before,
> > > > we could
> > > > > use your assistance.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > - Mike
> > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > > > Service.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44444 From: az_jeeper_mike <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:41pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs
> Splitting the group into two clubs will ultimately lead to the
> demise of one or the other.
I'm not talking about SPLITTING the AzVJC. I'm talking about giving
its members the OPTION of paying dues, for this they get an ASA4WDC
Membership, a United Membership, and a Az State Land Use Permit. If
they opt not to take this offer, then great.
> Should we become real so we can be regulated?
No more regulated than we alread are.
> Should we become real so we can have officers or pay dues?
Absolutely not. That is not the reason for it.
> If you'd care to elaborate on the benefits you see to being real;
> I'd be more than happy to have a nice debate with you.
Ok, here's the benefits for the individual.
1. ASA4WDC membership for $18/year instead of $25. BTW, Sandee
mentioned that the ASA4WDC is considering severely limiting the
number of individual memberships or eliminating them altogether;
which means that you MIGHT NOT be able to get an individual ASA4WDC
membership in a year or so.
2. United membership for FREE (as part of the $18 to ASA4WDC)
3. Land Use Permit (still same price, but you won't have to remember
each year to renew it)
4. One stop shopping online makes getting all three of the above
easier.
Here's the benefits for the AzVJC.
1. MILLION DOLLAR INSURANCE policy.
2. Any extra revenue from the dues can be used for paying to get rid
of advertisements in the e-mail list, buying stickers for club
promotion, banners, flyers, etc...
3. NOTHING changes, unless you VOLUNTARILY pay dues to receive the
benefits listed above.
Also some things that are less important, but yet I still see as
benefitial to the club.
4. Recognition - no doubt the AzVJC will be the largest club at the
ASA4WDC Jamboree. Plus you won't hear anymore whining about the
AzVJC not being a "real" club. Also the AzVJC will be listed on the
ASA4WDC website.
5. Help - as an incorporated club, the AzVJC can participate in
the "Adopt-A-Trail" program, get more help (trash-bins, water, give-
away merchandise, etc..) when organizing clean-ups.
Here's the benefits for our sport:
1. MORE MONEY TO FIGHT ECO-NAZIS will be going to ASA4WDC and United.
2. As an "official" club of the ASA4WDC, we'll likely get even more
members that wheel. Which means more people for the veteran 4
wheelers to mentor in the proper trail etiquette (i.e. T.R.E.A.D.
Lightly!)
3. More recognition also means that more people will become aware
that the 4 wheelers are not the bunch of Drunken Crazed Lunatics
Bashing Through the Desert Running Over Wildlife, Trees and Bushes
that the Greenies would like to portray us as.
> As far as taking the AzVJC name... ABSOLUTELY NOT!
Watch me.
> If you want to create a separate group
This isn't about creating a separate group. IT IS about giving the
members of THIS GROUP a new OPTION.
> Your suggestion of having people join the Arizona LowRangers is a
> good one.
IF there isn't alot of interest in an AzVJC Inc, then this is the
route I'll likely take.
> However, I believe your attempts to "organize" our group are
> misguided and not at all in the interests of the majority of the
> people in our club.
Do you still think so? It is the majority of the people in the club
that I AM thinking about. That any everyone else in this state that
appreciates our sport. My goal here is not to get people that have no
desire to be part of an organized club into one; my desire is to give
members the OPTION to easily SUPPORT thier sport. In my experience,
if it isn't easy for someone to do, and they don't get much out of
it, they WON'T do it. Look at the Tech page on the website. Lots of
questions (which it isn't for that) very few answers (everyone just
answers via e-mail) and even fewer real technical articles. Where is
the Electric Fan vs. Mechanical fan debate. Or the How much lift to
fit my tires. Or V8 vs I6, or Lockers vs Limited Slip, or Detroit vs
ARB discussions? They are not there because it isn't easy and the
users don't get much benefit from putting it up there EVEN THOUGH
someone else might benefit from it. (There are a few exceptions)
All I am trying to do here is make it easier for the AzVJC membership
to become members of ASA4WDC and United and get a Land Use Permit, is
that so wrong?
> This is yet another case of; if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
You know I bet there was nothing wrong with your Jeep when you drove
it off the lot at the dealer, but it sure doesn't look the same now
as it did then. Obviously you didn't apply this same rule, eh?
- Mike
44445 From: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:48pm
Subject: New poll for az_vjc
Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
az_vjc group:
Did you get your Az State Land Use
Permit this year?
o Yes
o No
o Oops, I forgot, I'll get one soon though, I promise.
To vote, please visit the following web page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/az_vjc/polls
Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.
Thanks!
44446 From: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:49pm
Subject: New poll for az_vjc
Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
az_vjc group:
Did you get your United Membership yet
this year?
o Yes
o No
o Oops, I forgot, I'll get one soon though, I promise.
To vote, please visit the following web page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/az_vjc/polls
Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.
Thanks!
44447 From: Roger Tomas <tomasr@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:50pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs
Mike,
I think your intentions are good and I commend you for trying to take
action. However, I think you need to spell out exactly what your goals
so that alternative approaches can be identified. Getting more money
to the organizations that fight for our lands seems to be an obvious
goal. But it's not clear what else you were intending to accomplish
given the other benefits you listed. In any case, I'm sure there's
more than one way to achieve them and I don't think the "shadow club"
is gonna' fly.
As a side note, I think there is a fundamental flaw in what you have
proposed. It's not clear to me how, if a "shadow club" was formed,
the benefits extended to the "shadow club" would also be extended to
the AZVJC. In addition, the stipulations about formally announcing
official club runs beforehand (as was described in a previous post)
seems to complicate matters (if this previous information is accurate).
If these truly are flaws in your proposal, then all this debate about
organizing is irrevelent.
-Roger
> "Chatfield, Mike" wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> The benefits are: 1. The AzVJC will be covered by the ASA4WDC million
> dollar insurance. 2. ASA4WDC and united will get more money to fight
> the eco-nazis. 3. The AzVJC will finally be recognized as the largest
> club at the ASA4WDC Jamboree :) 4. I'm sure there's more but my mind
> is drawing a blank.
>
> The downside is: 1. Paying Dues. 2. There are no other downsides, other
> than paying dues, nothing changes, and you only have to pay dues if you
> want to (you just remain a member of AzVJC but not AzVJC Inc).
>
> <snip>
>
> - Mike
44448 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:46pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
OK, that is way beyond what is called for!
Do you know Joe and how many people he has helped? If not, Shut the hell up!
Joe has contibuted more to this group than a large majority of the members.
He will drop what he is doing to help a fellow Jeeper. The fact that you
don't know this shows your ignorance.
Losing Joe would be a major asset loss for this group. If you don't know
that, you have a long way to go.
Chris
> From: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>
> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:35:53 -0700
> To: arizonajeep@c..., "'Chatfield, Mike'" <Mike@A...>,
> az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
> Promise?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:09 PM
> To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
> Mike,
>
> I'm not talking legal anything... I'm against ANYONE who chooses to divide
> (shadow... whatever word you choose to use) the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club.
> Unless you get a simple majority (1 vote greater than half the current
> membership count) voting for this shadow club... I will believe that it was
> the wrong thing to do. If you do manage to get a simple majority for this
> new "real" club, I will believe that it was the right thing for the club to
> do... but the wrong thing for me... at which point I will silently go away.
>
> I'm against it Mike, because I am all too familiar with the divisiveness of
> "real" groups... Although you have put a great deal of time into our club
> webpage, it does not authorize you to take our name and give it to another
> group. Even the original six members voting for it cannot authorize this
> change... there must be a majority vote for this to be a fair and honest
> change.
>
> The spirit of this club will change Mike... and there is nothing you, or
> anyone else, will be able to do to stop it. We don't need rules, or bylaws,
> or a board of directors and incorporation... You are pressing for change
> which will ultimately redefine our group and I don't want this to happen.
>
> Joe
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
>> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>>
>>
>> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
>> entity) has legal
>> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
>> the AzVJC never
>> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't
>> own anything
>> (including the copyrighted webpages).
>>
>> Just something to think about.
>>
>> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want
>> to be a part
>> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
>> unless YOU make
>> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
>>
>> - Mike
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
>> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>>
>>
>> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a
>> good idea for
>> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
>> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
>> everyone's
>> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
>> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
>> more than any
>> other club currently is.
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44449 From: Jayke Thorpe <jeepboy_3@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:54pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
I think everyone is getting a little to excited. What
happen to our "Who's off today", "How do you fix...",
you know, those kind of posts? This is straying us
from what we really enjoy about this group.
Jayke
--- Joe W <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> Hi Brian,
>
> If it turns out that you want to spend your money on
> a real club, feel
> free... try the Arizona LowRangers, I hear that they
> are a good group of
> guys and gals.
> I will suggest that you don't get your hopes up too
> high for a separate
> group with the AZVJC name though... cause it isn't
> going to happen.
>
> Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:26 PM
> To: David R. W. Withers; 'az_jeeper_mike';
> az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Hi David,
>
> I thought you were going away for awhile... What
> happened?
>
> How about not telling me how to spend my money...
> If I want to spend it on
> AzVJC for a membership club I should be able to. I
> want to contribute to
> this club in that way.
>
> If you don't want to participate then don't.
> Continue to be a member in
> the form you are now. Still sounds like everyone is
> welcome. Even You <grin>
>
> Do you think it devalues your membership because
> there are those who are
> willing to contribute monetarily to the club and
> those who aren't?
>
> Brian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David R. W. Withers
> To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:09 PM
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> If you want to help out, give your money to
> those organized clubs.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:53 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Joe,
>
> I think you missed the point here. The idea is
> not to change the AzVJC
> as it is, but in essence to create a 2nd club, a
> shadow club. The AzVJC
> will remain unchanged, people will still come
> and go as they please,
> there will still be no dues, no elections, no
> rules, just as it is now.
> However, members of the AzVJC will have the
> OPTION to join the 2nd club
> and the only requirement that is different is
> that they will need to pay
> dues; in addition, the other "requirements" (ie.
> live in Az, own a Jeep)
> will simply be enforced.
>
> I agree that the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club does
> not need anything else.
> However, offering the OPTION of joining a "Real"
> club that is a shadow
> of the Az "Virtual" JC, I can only see this as a
> good thing for both the
> individuals and our sport in general. Once
> again to be part of the
> AzVJC, nothing changes. To join the shadow
> club, you simply need to pay
> dues.
>
> I thought alot about the name for the 2nd group.
> And even though the V
> stands for "Virtual," I really think it should
> be the same name. Any
> other name wouldn't fit right "Arizona Real Jeep
> Club", "Arizona Jeep
> Club" and besides, then I'd have to create a
> whole new website
> (www.AzRJC.org or www.AzJC.org).
>
> Again this isn't an effort to ORGANIZE the
> AzVJC, it is an effort to
> provide the membership of the AzVJC another
> OPTION. And I disagree that
> the entire AzVJC membership would have to
> approve of such a thing, those
> that don't approve or don't want to don't have
> to join the shadow club.
> All we need is enough interest to see it through
> and enough initial
> members to split the costs of incorporation.
>
> I could even add a field to the Member Profiles
> called "Affiliated Club"
> in which members could put whatever "real" club
> they belong to. I
> suspect that alot of AzVJC members are members
> of the Az Lo-Rangers as
> well.
>
> The bottom line here is that I'm trying to make
> it easy for members of
> the AzVJC to join and maintain membership of an
> "organized club." The
> idea is to provide a webpage where they can pay
> their dues via PayPal
> and be done with it. No meetings to attend no
> check to write and mail,
> just an online payment. If the AzVJC shadow
> club doesn't interest
> anyone, would the membership of the Az
> LowRangers perhaps be willing to
> let our members join "On-Line" and pay their
> dues via PayPal? Since the
> Az-Low Rangers rules are very similiar to the
> AzVJC's anyhow.
>
> - Mike
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...>
> wrote:
> > The AZVJC does not need a President, or a
> Treasurer...
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of Service.
>
>
=====
S. Jayke Thorpe
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
44450 From: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:49pm
Subject: New poll for az_vjc
Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
az_vjc group:
Did you get your ASA4WDC membership yet
this year?
o Yes
o No
o Oops, I forgot, I'll get one soon though, I promise.
To vote, please visit the following web page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/az_vjc/polls
Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.
Thanks!
44451 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:55pm
Subject: FW: way off the subject (tug boat roll)
I stole this from another email list
I know everybody is enjoying the "O" topic today, but I wanted to post this.
It shows that we are not the only ones that have to worry about rolling
offroad.
tug boat roll <http://www.netcopspsi.com/temp/towboat.htm>
Enjoy!
Chris
44452 From: Robert McNeeley <robert.mcneeley@p...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:55pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
100% correct!
Robert
-----Original Message-----
From: Jayke Thorpe [mailto:jeepboy_3@y...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:55 PM
To: arizonajeep@c...; 'Brian Hill'; 'David R. W. Withers';
'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
I think everyone is getting a little to excited. What
happen to our "Who's off today", "How do you fix...",
you know, those kind of posts? This is straying us
from what we really enjoy about this group.
Jayke
--- Joe W <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> Hi Brian,
>
> If it turns out that you want to spend your money on
> a real club, feel
> free... try the Arizona LowRangers, I hear that they
> are a good group of
> guys and gals.
> I will suggest that you don't get your hopes up too
> high for a separate
> group with the AZVJC name though... cause it isn't
> going to happen.
>
> Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:26 PM
> To: David R. W. Withers; 'az_jeeper_mike';
> az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Hi David,
>
> I thought you were going away for awhile... What
> happened?
>
> How about not telling me how to spend my money...
> If I want to spend it on
> AzVJC for a membership club I should be able to. I
> want to contribute to
> this club in that way.
>
> If you don't want to participate then don't.
> Continue to be a member in
> the form you are now. Still sounds like everyone is
> welcome. Even You <grin>
>
> Do you think it devalues your membership because
> there are those who are
> willing to contribute monetarily to the club and
> those who aren't?
>
> Brian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David R. W. Withers
> To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:09 PM
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> If you want to help out, give your money to
> those organized clubs.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:53 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Joe,
>
> I think you missed the point here. The idea is
> not to change the AzVJC
> as it is, but in essence to create a 2nd club, a
> shadow club. The AzVJC
> will remain unchanged, people will still come
> and go as they please,
> there will still be no dues, no elections, no
> rules, just as it is now.
> However, members of the AzVJC will have the
> OPTION to join the 2nd club
> and the only requirement that is different is
> that they will need to pay
> dues; in addition, the other "requirements" (ie.
> live in Az, own a Jeep)
> will simply be enforced.
>
> I agree that the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club does
> not need anything else.
> However, offering the OPTION of joining a "Real"
> club that is a shadow
> of the Az "Virtual" JC, I can only see this as a
> good thing for both the
> individuals and our sport in general. Once
> again to be part of the
> AzVJC, nothing changes. To join the shadow
> club, you simply need to pay
> dues.
>
> I thought alot about the name for the 2nd group.
> And even though the V
> stands for "Virtual," I really think it should
> be the same name. Any
> other name wouldn't fit right "Arizona Real Jeep
> Club", "Arizona Jeep
> Club" and besides, then I'd have to create a
> whole new website
> (www.AzRJC.org or www.AzJC.org).
>
> Again this isn't an effort to ORGANIZE the
> AzVJC, it is an effort to
> provide the membership of the AzVJC another
> OPTION. And I disagree that
> the entire AzVJC membership would have to
> approve of such a thing, those
> that don't approve or don't want to don't have
> to join the shadow club.
> All we need is enough interest to see it through
> and enough initial
> members to split the costs of incorporation.
>
> I could even add a field to the Member Profiles
> called "Affiliated Club"
> in which members could put whatever "real" club
> they belong to. I
> suspect that alot of AzVJC members are members
> of the Az Lo-Rangers as
> well.
>
> The bottom line here is that I'm trying to make
> it easy for members of
> the AzVJC to join and maintain membership of an
> "organized club." The
> idea is to provide a webpage where they can pay
> their dues via PayPal
> and be done with it. No meetings to attend no
> check to write and mail,
> just an online payment. If the AzVJC shadow
> club doesn't interest
> anyone, would the membership of the Az
> LowRangers perhaps be willing to
> let our members join "On-Line" and pay their
> dues via PayPal? Since the
> Az-Low Rangers rules are very similiar to the
> AzVJC's anyhow.
>
> - Mike
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...>
> wrote:
> > The AZVJC does not need a President, or a
> Treasurer...
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of Service.
>
>
=====
S. Jayke Thorpe
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion!
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44453 From: Robert McNeeley <robert.mcneeley@p...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:51pm
Subject: RE: RE: Organized Clubs
Good point and this is the best club I have seen so far...
Robert
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:20 PM
To: 'jeepfanatic97'
Cc: Azvjc (E-mail)
Subject: [az_vjc] RE: Organized Clubs
Rob,
I can't speak for everyone else, but the reason I'm against this is because
anytime you make rules, and put people in positions of authority over other
people... or a group of people, things change.
I honestly believe that the AZVJC is PERFECT... in the most absolute sense
of the word. If something is perfect, by definition, it doesn't need to
change.
If someone can show me how our club isn't perfect as it is, I'll be happy to
reconsider my position.
Kind Regards,
Joe West
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44454 From: Bill Witt <k7ant@t...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:00pm
Subject: Re: 4x4 clubs
Adios! And its obvious your girlfriend doesn't know a small unit from a
large bolder. Sounds like a libber, not a jeep gal.
Bill W
K7ANT
97 TJ with a few mods.
http://k7ant.rockcrawler.com/
Up on the Mogollon Rim in God and 4 wheeler's country.
----- Original Message -----
From: "vpheiple" <vpheiple@m...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 1:02 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] 4x4 clubs
> Do any of you know of any normal family oriented clubs, whose whole
> purpose in life is not to tear up their Jeeps, but to enjoy a weekend
> away from the city. Your site is very interesting, but seems to be
> tailored more to the radical side of offroading, most of the messages
> I have read are about modifications made to Jeeps and where to get
> parts after you tear your Jeeps up. I do agree with many of the
> points you bring up about people staying off of trails they don't
> belong on, but like my fiance says "Big tires and lift kits are a
> representation of a small male unit" I would equate this to driving
> over large boulders too, even if you have to ramp both sides to get
> it done. Don't get me wrong, I realize that most of you go offroad
> because you love the challenge and I am sure it is a pure adrenlin
> rush taking something you have built and being able to do something
> with it that not many others can do. That's why there are so many
> want to be's messing up your trails, they don't see that they are
> ruining the trail, just that they made it to the top. It is great
> that your club see's the benefits of keeping what you have,where I
> come from so much of the land is closed to 4x4's, you are quite lucky
> to have the opportunity get off the road.
>
> Best Regards
>
> Vern Heiple
>
>
> p.s. Having to clean up other peoples messes is a part of life
> because most people only care about themselves and whats good for
> them at the time.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44455 From: Eric Marble <emarble3@p...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:08pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
If it wasn't for Joes Jeep how would the little ones learn to read?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
To: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>; <arizonajeep@c...>;
<az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> OK, that is way beyond what is called for!
> Do you know Joe and how many people he has helped? If not, Shut the hell
up!
> Joe has contibuted more to this group than a large majority of the
members.
> He will drop what he is doing to help a fellow Jeeper. The fact that you
> don't know this shows your ignorance.
> Losing Joe would be a major asset loss for this group. If you don't know
> that, you have a long way to go.
>
> Chris
>
> > From: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>
> > Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:35:53 -0700
> > To: arizonajeep@c..., "'Chatfield, Mike'" <Mike@A...>,
> > az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> > Promise?
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:09 PM
> > To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> > I'm not talking legal anything... I'm against ANYONE who chooses to
divide
> > (shadow... whatever word you choose to use) the Arizona Virtual Jeep
Club.
> > Unless you get a simple majority (1 vote greater than half the current
> > membership count) voting for this shadow club... I will believe that it
was
> > the wrong thing to do. If you do manage to get a simple majority for
this
> > new "real" club, I will believe that it was the right thing for the club
to
> > do... but the wrong thing for me... at which point I will silently go
away.
> >
> > I'm against it Mike, because I am all too familiar with the divisiveness
of
> > "real" groups... Although you have put a great deal of time into our
club
> > webpage, it does not authorize you to take our name and give it to
another
> > group. Even the original six members voting for it cannot authorize
this
> > change... there must be a majority vote for this to be a fair and honest
> > change.
> >
> > The spirit of this club will change Mike... and there is nothing you, or
> > anyone else, will be able to do to stop it. We don't need rules, or
bylaws,
> > or a board of directors and incorporation... You are pressing for
change
> > which will ultimately redefine our group and I don't want this to
happen.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> >> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> >> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> >> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>
> >>
> >> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
> >> entity) has legal
> >> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
> >> the AzVJC never
> >> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't
> >> own anything
> >> (including the copyrighted webpages).
> >>
> >> Just something to think about.
> >>
> >> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want
> >> to be a part
> >> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
> >> unless YOU make
> >> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
> >>
> >> - Mike
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> >> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> >> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> >> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>
> >>
> >> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a
> >> good idea for
> >> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
> >> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
> >> everyone's
> >> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> >> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
> >> more than any
> >> other club currently is.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44456 From: Brian Hill <brian@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:08pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
The fact that he has helped a lot of others is good. The fact that he is so
sensitive is not. The fact that you come to his aid is a nice touch too. But
after the noise he has made today in a negative way, who cares?
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:47 PM
To: Brian Hill; arizonajeep@c...; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
OK, that is way beyond what is called for!
Do you know Joe and how many people he has helped? If not, Shut the hell up!
Joe has contibuted more to this group than a large majority of the members.
He will drop what he is doing to help a fellow Jeeper. The fact that you
don't know this shows your ignorance.
Losing Joe would be a major asset loss for this group. If you don't know
that, you have a long way to go.
Chris
> From: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>
> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:35:53 -0700
> To: arizonajeep@c..., "'Chatfield, Mike'" <Mike@A...>,
> az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
> Promise?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:09 PM
> To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
> Mike,
>
> I'm not talking legal anything... I'm against ANYONE who chooses to divide
> (shadow... whatever word you choose to use) the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club.
> Unless you get a simple majority (1 vote greater than half the current
> membership count) voting for this shadow club... I will believe that it
was
> the wrong thing to do. If you do manage to get a simple majority for this
> new "real" club, I will believe that it was the right thing for the club
to
> do... but the wrong thing for me... at which point I will silently go
away.
>
> I'm against it Mike, because I am all too familiar with the divisiveness
of
> "real" groups... Although you have put a great deal of time into our club
> webpage, it does not authorize you to take our name and give it to another
> group. Even the original six members voting for it cannot authorize this
> change... there must be a majority vote for this to be a fair and honest
> change.
>
> The spirit of this club will change Mike... and there is nothing you, or
> anyone else, will be able to do to stop it. We don't need rules, or
bylaws,
> or a board of directors and incorporation... You are pressing for change
> which will ultimately redefine our group and I don't want this to happen.
>
> Joe
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
>> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>>
>>
>> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
>> entity) has legal
>> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
>> the AzVJC never
>> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't
>> own anything
>> (including the copyrighted webpages).
>>
>> Just something to think about.
>>
>> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want
>> to be a part
>> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
>> unless YOU make
>> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
>>
>> - Mike
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
>> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>>
>>
>> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a
>> good idea for
>> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
>> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
>> everyone's
>> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
>> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
>> more than any
>> other club currently is.
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44457 From: az_jeeper_mike <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:55pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs
My point once again is that this IS NOT ABOUT CHANGING THE AZVJC. It
is about GIVING AZVJC MEMBERS the OPTION to join ASA4WDC, United and
get a State Land Use Permit at a DISCOUNTED price ($5 off).
My freaking goodness people, you're acting like we're going to come
in your house and put a meter on your computer and charge you
everytime you hit the AzVJC website.
Fureak!
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "rlpeckii" <rlpii@q...> wrote:
> Mike,
> I think what Joe is saying is that it is OK to create a new club,
> just don't "affiliate" it with the AZVJC.
44458 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:04pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
LMAO!!
Chris
> From: "Eric Marble" <EMarble3@p...>
> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:08:20 -0700
> To: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>, <arizonajeep@c...>,
> <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>, "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
> If it wasn't for Joes Jeep how would the little ones learn to read?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
> To: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>; <arizonajeep@c...>;
> <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
>> OK, that is way beyond what is called for!
>> Do you know Joe and how many people he has helped? If not, Shut the hell
> up!
>> Joe has contibuted more to this group than a large majority of the
> members.
>> He will drop what he is doing to help a fellow Jeeper. The fact that you
>> don't know this shows your ignorance.
>> Losing Joe would be a major asset loss for this group. If you don't know
>> that, you have a long way to go.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>> From: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>
>>> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:35:53 -0700
>>> To: arizonajeep@c..., "'Chatfield, Mike'" <Mike@A...>,
>>> az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>>>
>>> Promise?
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:09 PM
>>> To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>>>
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>> I'm not talking legal anything... I'm against ANYONE who chooses to
> divide
>>> (shadow... whatever word you choose to use) the Arizona Virtual Jeep
> Club.
>>> Unless you get a simple majority (1 vote greater than half the current
>>> membership count) voting for this shadow club... I will believe that it
> was
>>> the wrong thing to do. If you do manage to get a simple majority for
> this
>>> new "real" club, I will believe that it was the right thing for the club
> to
>>> do... but the wrong thing for me... at which point I will silently go
> away.
>>>
>>> I'm against it Mike, because I am all too familiar with the divisiveness
> of
>>> "real" groups... Although you have put a great deal of time into our
> club
>>> webpage, it does not authorize you to take our name and give it to
> another
>>> group. Even the original six members voting for it cannot authorize
> this
>>> change... there must be a majority vote for this to be a fair and honest
>
44435 From: Eric Marble <emarble3@p...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:40pm
Subject: Fw: Re: Organized Clubs
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Marble" <EMarble3@p...>
To: <arizonajeep@c...>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> You may even want to have trip leaders make sure everyone in the group has
> their permit with them on runs. Because if they don't the whole group will
> get held up waiting for the one who doesn't have theirs with them while
they
> banter back and forth with the rangers. The rangers are going to hold the
> group not just the one who doesn't have the permit. Also a good way to get
> everyone involved on the environment aspect of wheeling.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...>
> To: "'Eric Marble'" <EMarble3@p...>
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:24 PM
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> > Eric,
> >
> > Absolutely! This is a MUCH better idea than creating a "real" group.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Eric Marble [mailto:EMarble3@p...]
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:31 PM
> > > To: arizonajeep@c...
> > > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >
> > >
> > > Would you be for making the existing club better? Create a
> > > options page or
> > > sign up page to the ASA and BLM. explaining the importance of
> > > joining. He
> > > who pays for permits (Individual or otherwise) is a supporter
> > > of the sport.
> > > He whose doesn't is just a parasite on the back of other wheelers.
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...>
> > > To: "'Chatfield, Mike'" <Mike@A...>;
> > > <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:08 PM
> > > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >
> > >
> > > > Mike,
> > > >
> > > > I'm not talking legal anything... I'm against ANYONE who
> > > chooses to divide
> > > > (shadow... whatever word you choose to use) the Arizona
> > > Virtual Jeep Club.
> > > > Unless you get a simple majority (1 vote greater than half
> > > the current
> > > > membership count) voting for this shadow club... I will
> > > believe that it
> > > was
> > > > the wrong thing to do. If you do manage to get a simple
> > > majority for this
> > > > new "real" club, I will believe that it was the right thing
> > > for the club
> > > to
> > > > do... but the wrong thing for me... at which point I will
> > > silently go
> > > away.
> > > >
> > > > I'm against it Mike, because I am all too familiar with the
> > > divisiveness
> > > of
> > > > "real" groups... Although you have put a great deal of time
> > > into our club
> > > > webpage, it does not authorize you to take our name and
> > > give it to another
> > > > group. Even the original six members voting for it cannot
> > > authorize this
> > > > change... there must be a majority vote for this to be a
> > > fair and honest
> > > > change.
> > > >
> > > > The spirit of this club will change Mike... and there is
> > > nothing you, or
> > > > anyone else, will be able to do to stop it. We don't need rules, or
> > > bylaws,
> > > > or a board of directors and incorporation... You are
> > > pressing for change
> > > > which will ultimately redefine our group and I don't want
> > > this to happen.
> > > >
> > > > Joe
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> > > > > To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> > > > > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
> > > > > entity) has legal
> > > > > right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
> > > > > the AzVJC never
> > > > > incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't
> > > > > own anything
> > > > > (including the copyrighted webpages).
> > > > >
> > > > > Just something to think about.
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want
> > > > > to be a part
> > > > > of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
> > > > > unless YOU make
> > > > > the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
> > > > >
> > > > > - Mike
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> > > > > To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a
> > > > > good idea for
> > > > > those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to
> > > the AZVJC....
> > > > > webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
> > > > > everyone's
> > > > > authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new
> > > club must be
> > > > > separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
> > > > > more than any
> > > > > other club currently is.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVERTISEMENT
44436 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:35pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
All bow and worship the original six...
Come on Bob, let's be real. Everyone counts, and everyone's ideas and
concerns count.
You suggest that we treat our group as an modified autocracy and I suggest
we treat it as a democracy.
I like Democracy Bob... because history has shown us where autocracy
leads... by the way, I'd prefer that you not tell me to shut-up... I view
this as a bad reflection on your upbringing.
This group belongs to everyone, we have no leaders, we have no followers, we
have only 1024 members who are all absolute equals.
By the way, have you ever longed to live in Iraq?
Kind Regards,
Joe West
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert McNeeley [mailto:robert.mcneeley@p...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:26 PM
> To: 'Bill Mish'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> There is nothing like having people take something that you
> created and
> developed and were kind enough to give access to and make it
> their own. Yes
> this is my club too because I am a member. However I did not
> create it,
> develop it, and let people join it. I am not saying that becoming an
> organized group is a good or bad thing... What ever
> happens...happens. I
> will still be part of the vjc. I just think that
> everyone...yes...EVERYONE
> needs to step back and listen to what the orig 6 want.
> We all belong to this club BUT they were the ones who started
> it... and gave
> it to us. To the original 6, or what's left of them, What do
> you want???
> What do you think??? To those who were after the orig 6... shut up and
> listen... Everyone has made good comments...some have just acted butt
> hurt... So orig 6 what do you want?
>
> anyone have $.98 change?
> Robert aka Fat Bob
>
>
> From: "jeepthang87yj" <jeep_thang@h...>
> To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:53 PM
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> > Oh come on as if there isn't enough clubs that want your money
> > already, and have little requirements you need to stay in the club,
> > and besides it's really stupid to pay money just to watch
> people talk
> > on the net.
> > Not me I'll vote against it.
> >
> > Sincerely: JEEP THANG
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > > Mike,
> > >
> > > Organization is in the air again.... and I suspect that
> once again,
> > it shall
> > > be shot down completely.
> > >
> > > There are enough organized clubs to join here in the valley if
> > people want
> > > to join. The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer, and
> > we
> > > already have a Webmaster who is doing a fantastic job <grin>.
> > >
> > > The only way that this group will become an organized entity is if
> > you can
> > > get every single member to vote for organization... and I hate to
> > tell you
> > > this; but I'll never vote for it...put it to a vote and watch how
> > badly it
> > > gets shot down.
> > >
> > > If people want to belong to an organized group, go off and start
> > your own
> > > organized group. Call it the Arizona Jeep Club or the Arizona
> > Axlebreakers
> > > or whatever... but I suggest that people not get their hopes up to
> > high for
> > > the AZVJC to EVER become organized.
> > >
> > > Ta-Ta till next year's organizational pleas start anew...
> > >
> > >
> > > Joe West
> > >
> > > Long live Anarchy!
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:29 AM
> > > To: 'az_vjc@y...'
> > > Subject: [az_vjc] Organized Clubs
> > >
> > >
> > > To all of those that already belong to an organized
> club, you may
> > now
> > > delete this message (or continue reading if you're curious).
> > >
> > > For everyone here that is interested:
> > >
> > > I talked to Sandee McCullen at the cleanup in January and have
> > been trying
> > > to figure out a way to bring this up to the group. Well it looks
> > like this
> > > may be the perfect time with all that has happened in the past day
> > or so.
> > >
> > > We can make the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club an incorporated club
> > and become
> > > a member club of the Arizona State Association of 4WD
> Clubs WITHOUT
> > > organizing (at least not any more than we already have). Sandee
> > said that we
> > > need three "officers" and bylaws, we don't have to have membership
> > > requirements, elections, "official" club runs. All the
> bylaws have
> > to say
> > > is who the officers are, how new members join, and when we have
> > meetings
> > > (even if it is never).
> > >
> > > Here is the way it would work. As it is now, anyone
> can join the
> > AzVJC
> > > via the website and post messages to the group, this WILL NOT
> > change. What
> > > changes is, once someone has joined the AzVJC and gone on one run
> > (so we can
> > > verify that they live in Arizona and HAVE a JEEP) then they can
> > join the
> > > Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated (AzVJC Inc). All they have
> > to do is
> > > pay their dues for the year. If they want to drop out of the AzVJC
> > Inc then
> > > they just don't pay the dues; it doesn't mean that they will be
> > dropped from
> > > the website or mailing list. Nothing else changes... all we're
> > doing is
> > > adding another option for our members.
> > >
> > > Here is what I'm thinking for the incorporation:
> > >
> > > For the three officers:
> > >
> > > President - Responsible for turning in New Membership
> Information
> > to
> > > ASA4WDC, attend ASA4WDC meetings. (I nominate DougB if he's
> > interested)
> > > Treasurer - Responsible for collecting money from members and
> > paying
> > > ASA4WDC and Az State. (I nominate Jon Loveless, if he's
> interested,
> > since he
> > > already does alot with stickers, etc...)
> > > Webmaster - Responsible for maintaining the website and e-mail
> > list.
> > >
> > > How to become a New Member: 1. Join the AzVJC 2. Go on a run
> > with the
> > > AzVJC (with at least one member of the AzVJC Inc present) 3. Pay
> > Dues.
> > > That's it.
> > >
> > > How to become a Non Member: 1. Don't pay your dues.
> > >
> > > Meetings and Elections: None. If a club officer steps down,
> > he/she
> > > chooses the replacement.
> > >
> > > Dues: I am thinking since Az State has decided that clubs are
> > only
> > > allowed 2 runs per month that we just include an individual permit
> > in the
> > > cost of the dues for the year. This way members of the AzVJC Inc
> > are double
> > > covered and they won't have to remember to get one every
> year (like
> > me).
> > > Also included in the cost of dues would be ASA4WDC membership.
> > Because of
> > > the incorporation, we'll likely have to start paying for the
> > webspace (which
> > > we currently get for free) which is $21.25/month. We could also
> > include
> > > things like paying to get rid of advertisements on Yahoo Groups,
> > extra
> > > stickers to hand out at events, flyers, banners, etc...
> I estimate
> > roughly
> > > $40/year which is right in line with most clubs.
> > >
> > > The benefits are: 1. The AzVJC will be covered by the ASA4WDC
> > million
> > > dollar insurance. 2. ASA4WDC and united will get more money to
> > fight the
> > > eco-nazis. 3. The AzVJC will finally be recognized as the largest
> > club at
> > > the ASA4WDC Jamboree :) 4. I'm sure there's more but my mind is
> > drawing a
> > > blank.
> > >
> > > The downside is: 1. Paying Dues. 2. There are no other
> > downsides, other
> > > than paying dues, nothing changes, and you only have to
> pay dues if
> > you want
> > > to (you just remain a member of AzVJC but not AzVJC Inc).
> > >
> > > Does this make sense? I'll post a poll to find out how many may
> > be
> > > interested. The initial start up costs will depend on the number
> > of people
> > > starting the AzVJC Inc as incorporation can initially be expensive
> > ($500?)
> > > ALSO, if anyone has been through the incorporation process before,
> > we could
> > > use your assistance.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > - Mike
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44437 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:36pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Yes indeed Brian... I promise.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:36 PM
> To: arizonajeep@c...; 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Promise?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:09 PM
> To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
> Mike,
>
> I'm not talking legal anything... I'm against ANYONE who
> chooses to divide
> (shadow... whatever word you choose to use) the Arizona
> Virtual Jeep Club.
> Unless you get a simple majority (1 vote greater than half the current
> membership count) voting for this shadow club... I will
> believe that it was
> the wrong thing to do. If you do manage to get a simple
> majority for this
> new "real" club, I will believe that it was the right thing
> for the club to
> do... but the wrong thing for me... at which point I will
> silently go away.
>
> I'm against it Mike, because I am all too familiar with the
> divisiveness of
> "real" groups... Although you have put a great deal of time
> into our club
> webpage, it does not authorize you to take our name and give
> it to another
> group. Even the original six members voting for it cannot
> authorize this
> change... there must be a majority vote for this to be a fair
> and honest
> change.
>
> The spirit of this club will change Mike... and there is
> nothing you, or
> anyone else, will be able to do to stop it. We don't need
> rules, or bylaws,
> or a board of directors and incorporation... You are
> pressing for change
> which will ultimately redefine our group and I don't want
> this to happen.
>
> Joe
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> > To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> > And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
> > entity) has legal
> > right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
> > the AzVJC never
> > incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't
> > own anything
> > (including the copyrighted webpages).
> >
> > Just something to think about.
> >
> > BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want
> > to be a part
> > of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
> > unless YOU make
> > the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
> >
> > - Mike
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> > To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> > Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a
> > good idea for
> > those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to
> the AZVJC....
> > webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
> > everyone's
> > authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> > separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
> > more than any
> > other club currently is.
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44438 From: jetowle2000 <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:40pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs
I respectfully deny this proposal.
--James
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...> wrote:
> To all of those that already belong to an organized club, you may
now delete
> this message (or continue reading if you're curious).
>
> For everyone here that is interested:
>
> I talked to Sandee McCullen at the cleanup in January and have been
trying
> to figure out a way to bring this up to the group. Well it looks
like this
> may be the perfect time with all that has happened in the past day
or so.
>
> We can make the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club an incorporated club and
become a
> member club of the Arizona State Association of 4WD Clubs WITHOUT
organizing
> (at least not any more than we already have). Sandee said that we
need three
> "officers" and bylaws, we don't have to have membership
requirements,
> elections, "official" club runs. All the bylaws have to say is who
the
> officers are, how new members join, and when we have meetings (even
if it is
> never).
>
> Here is the way it would work. As it is now, anyone can join the
AzVJC via
> the website and post messages to the group, this WILL NOT change.
What
> changes is, once someone has joined the AzVJC and gone on one run
(so we can
> verify that they live in Arizona and HAVE a JEEP) then they can
join the
> Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated (AzVJC Inc). All they have
to do is
> pay their dues for the year. If they want to drop out of the AzVJC
Inc then
> they just don't pay the dues; it doesn't mean that they will be
dropped from
> the website or mailing list. Nothing else changes... all we're
doing is
> adding another option for our members.
>
> Here is what I'm thinking for the incorporation:
>
> For the three officers:
>
> President - Responsible for turning in New Membership Information to
> ASA4WDC, attend ASA4WDC meetings. (I nominate DougB if he's
interested)
> Treasurer - Responsible for collecting money from members and
paying ASA4WDC
> and Az State. (I nominate Jon Loveless, if he's interested, since
he already
> does alot with stickers, etc...)
> Webmaster - Responsible for maintaining the website and e-mail list.
>
> How to become a New Member: 1. Join the AzVJC 2. Go on a run with
the AzVJC
> (with at least one member of the AzVJC Inc present) 3. Pay Dues.
That's it.
>
> How to become a Non Member: 1. Don't pay your dues.
>
> Meetings and Elections: None. If a club officer steps down, he/she
chooses
> the replacement.
>
> Dues: I am thinking since Az State has decided that clubs are only
allowed
> 2 runs per month that we just include an individual permit in the
cost of
> the dues for the year. This way members of the AzVJC Inc are
double covered
> and they won't have to remember to get one every year (like me).
Also
> included in the cost of dues would be ASA4WDC membership. Because
of the
> incorporation, we'll likely have to start paying for the webspace
(which we
> currently get for free) which is $21.25/month. We could also
include things
> like paying to get rid of advertisements on Yahoo Groups, extra
stickers to
> hand out at events, flyers, banners, etc... I estimate roughly
$40/year
> which is right in line with most clubs.
>
> The benefits are: 1. The AzVJC will be covered by the ASA4WDC
million dollar
> insurance. 2. ASA4WDC and united will get more money to fight the
eco-nazis.
> 3. The AzVJC will finally be recognized as the largest club at the
ASA4WDC
> Jamboree :) 4. I'm sure there's more but my mind is drawing a blank.
>
> The downside is: 1. Paying Dues. 2. There are no other downsides,
other
> than paying dues, nothing changes, and you only have to pay dues if
you want
> to (you just remain a member of AzVJC but not AzVJC Inc).
>
> Does this make sense? I'll post a poll to find out how many may be
> interested. The initial start up costs will depend on the number
of people
> starting the AzVJC Inc as incorporation can initially be expensive
($500?)
> ALSO, if anyone has been through the incorporation process before,
we could
> use your assistance.
>
> Thanks,
>
> - Mike
44439 From: Eric Marble <emarble3@p...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:48pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
Joe were you a only child?
Opps did I say that out loud?
(just kidding)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...>
To: "'Robert McNeeley'" <robert.mcneeley@p...>; "'Bill Mish'"
<yldkat55@h...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:35 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> All bow and worship the original six...
>
> Come on Bob, let's be real. Everyone counts, and everyone's ideas and
> concerns count.
> You suggest that we treat our group as an modified autocracy and I suggest
> we treat it as a democracy.
> I like Democracy Bob... because history has shown us where autocracy
> leads... by the way, I'd prefer that you not tell me to shut-up... I view
> this as a bad reflection on your upbringing.
>
> This group belongs to everyone, we have no leaders, we have no followers,
we
> have only 1024 members who are all absolute equals.
>
> By the way, have you ever longed to live in Iraq?
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Joe West
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Robert McNeeley [mailto:robert.mcneeley@p...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:26 PM
> > To: 'Bill Mish'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> > There is nothing like having people take something that you
> > created and
> > developed and were kind enough to give access to and make it
> > their own. Yes
> > this is my club too because I am a member. However I did not
> > create it,
> > develop it, and let people join it. I am not saying that becoming an
> > organized group is a good or bad thing... What ever
> > happens...happens. I
> > will still be part of the vjc. I just think that
> > everyone...yes...EVERYONE
> > needs to step back and listen to what the orig 6 want.
> > We all belong to this club BUT they were the ones who started
> > it... and gave
> > it to us. To the original 6, or what's left of them, What do
> > you want???
> > What do you think??? To those who were after the orig 6... shut up and
> > listen... Everyone has made good comments...some have just acted butt
> > hurt... So orig 6 what do you want?
> >
> > anyone have $.98 change?
> > Robert aka Fat Bob
> >
> >
> > From: "jeepthang87yj" <jeep_thang@h...>
> > To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:53 PM
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> > > Oh come on as if there isn't enough clubs that want your money
> > > already, and have little requirements you need to stay in the club,
> > > and besides it's really stupid to pay money just to watch
> > people talk
> > > on the net.
> > > Not me I'll vote against it.
> > >
> > > Sincerely: JEEP THANG
> > >
> > > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > > > Mike,
> > > >
> > > > Organization is in the air again.... and I suspect that
> > once again,
> > > it shall
> > > > be shot down completely.
> > > >
> > > > There are enough organized clubs to join here in the valley if
> > > people want
> > > > to join. The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer, and
> > > we
> > > > already have a Webmaster who is doing a fantastic job <grin>.
> > > >
> > > > The only way that this group will become an organized entity is if
> > > you can
> > > > get every single member to vote for organization... and I hate to
> > > tell you
> > > > this; but I'll never vote for it...put it to a vote and watch how
> > > badly it
> > > > gets shot down.
> > > >
> > > > If people want to belong to an organized group, go off and start
> > > your own
> > > > organized group. Call it the Arizona Jeep Club or the Arizona
> > > Axlebreakers
> > > > or whatever... but I suggest that people not get their hopes up to
> > > high for
> > > > the AZVJC to EVER become organized.
> > > >
> > > > Ta-Ta till next year's organizational pleas start anew...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Joe West
> > > >
> > > > Long live Anarchy!
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:29 AM
> > > > To: 'az_vjc@y...'
> > > > Subject: [az_vjc] Organized Clubs
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To all of those that already belong to an organized
> > club, you may
> > > now
> > > > delete this message (or continue reading if you're curious).
> > > >
> > > > For everyone here that is interested:
> > > >
> > > > I talked to Sandee McCullen at the cleanup in January and have
> > > been trying
> > > > to figure out a way to bring this up to the group. Well it looks
> > > like this
> > > > may be the perfect time with all that has happened in the past day
> > > or so.
> > > >
> > > > We can make the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club an incorporated club
> > > and become
> > > > a member club of the Arizona State Association of 4WD
> > Clubs WITHOUT
> > > > organizing (at least not any more than we already have). Sandee
> > > said that we
> > > > need three "officers" and bylaws, we don't have to have membership
> > > > requirements, elections, "official" club runs. All the
> > bylaws have
> > > to say
> > > > is who the officers are, how new members join, and when we have
> > > meetings
> > > > (even if it is never).
> > > >
> > > > Here is the way it would work. As it is now, anyone
> > can join the
> > > AzVJC
> > > > via the website and post messages to the group, this WILL NOT
> > > change. What
> > > > changes is, once someone has joined the AzVJC and gone on one run
> > > (so we can
> > > > verify that they live in Arizona and HAVE a JEEP) then they can
> > > join the
> > > > Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated (AzVJC Inc). All they have
> > > to do is
> > > > pay their dues for the year. If they want to drop out of the AzVJC
> > > Inc then
> > > > they just don't pay the dues; it doesn't mean that they will be
> > > dropped from
> > > > the website or mailing list. Nothing else changes... all we're
> > > doing is
> > > > adding another option for our members.
> > > >
> > > > Here is what I'm thinking for the incorporation:
> > > >
> > > > For the three officers:
> > > >
> > > > President - Responsible for turning in New Membership
> > Information
> > > to
> > > > ASA4WDC, attend ASA4WDC meetings. (I nominate DougB if he's
> > > interested)
> > > > Treasurer - Responsible for collecting money from members and
> > > paying
> > > > ASA4WDC and Az State. (I nominate Jon Loveless, if he's
> > interested,
> > > since he
> > > > already does alot with stickers, etc...)
> > > > Webmaster - Responsible for maintaining the website and e-mail
> > > list.
> > > >
> > > > How to become a New Member: 1. Join the AzVJC 2. Go on a run
> > > with the
> > > > AzVJC (with at least one member of the AzVJC Inc present) 3. Pay
> > > Dues.
> > > > That's it.
> > > >
> > > > How to become a Non Member: 1. Don't pay your dues.
> > > >
> > > > Meetings and Elections: None. If a club officer steps down,
> > > he/she
> > > > chooses the replacement.
> > > >
> > > > Dues: I am thinking since Az State has decided that clubs are
> > > only
> > > > allowed 2 runs per month that we just include an individual permit
> > > in the
> > > > cost of the dues for the year. This way members of the AzVJC Inc
> > > are double
> > > > covered and they won't have to remember to get one every
> > year (like
> > > me).
> > > > Also included in the cost of dues would be ASA4WDC membership.
> > > Because of
> > > > the incorporation, we'll likely have to start paying for the
> > > webspace (which
> > > > we currently get for free) which is $21.25/month. We could also
> > > include
> > > > things like paying to get rid of advertisements on Yahoo Groups,
> > > extra
> > > > stickers to hand out at events, flyers, banners, etc...
> > I estimate
> > > roughly
> > > > $40/year which is right in line with most clubs.
> > > >
> > > > The benefits are: 1. The AzVJC will be covered by the ASA4WDC
> > > million
> > > > dollar insurance. 2. ASA4WDC and united will get more money to
> > > fight the
> > > > eco-nazis. 3. The AzVJC will finally be recognized as the largest
> > > club at
> > > > the ASA4WDC Jamboree :) 4. I'm sure there's more but my mind is
> > > drawing a
> > > > blank.
> > > >
> > > > The downside is: 1. Paying Dues. 2. There are no other
> > > downsides, other
> > > > than paying dues, nothing changes, and you only have to
> > pay dues if
> > > you want
> > > > to (you just remain a member of AzVJC but not AzVJC Inc).
> > > >
> > > > Does this make sense? I'll post a poll to find out how many may
> > > be
> > > > interested. The initial start up costs will depend on the number
> > > of people
> > > > starting the AzVJC Inc as incorporation can initially be expensive
> > > ($500?)
> > > > ALSO, if anyone has been through the incorporation process before,
> > > we could
> > > > use your assistance.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > - Mike
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > > Service.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44440 From: Robert McNeeley <robert.mcneeley@p...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:44pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Real as in being so uptight about an idea that people had to go and set up a
new group on yahoo just because something might change that they don't like?
That's real to me...
As far as the shut up comment most people wont take notice of "pipe down".
:) Sorry you were offended. I will take my own advice and shut up now.
Robert
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:35 PM
To: 'Robert McNeeley'; 'Bill Mish'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
All bow and worship the original six...
Come on Bob, let's be real. Everyone counts, and everyone's ideas and
concerns count.
You suggest that we treat our group as an modified autocracy and I suggest
we treat it as a democracy.
I like Democracy Bob... because history has shown us where autocracy
leads... by the way, I'd prefer that you not tell me to shut-up... I view
this as a bad reflection on your upbringing.
This group belongs to everyone, we have no leaders, we have no followers, we
have only 1024 members who are all absolute equals.
By the way, have you ever longed to live in Iraq?
Kind Regards,
Joe West
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert McNeeley [mailto:robert.mcneeley@p...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:26 PM
> To: 'Bill Mish'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> There is nothing like having people take something that you
> created and
> developed and were kind enough to give access to and make it
> their own. Yes
> this is my club too because I am a member. However I did not
> create it,
> develop it, and let people join it. I am not saying that becoming an
> organized group is a good or bad thing... What ever
> happens...happens. I
> will still be part of the vjc. I just think that
> everyone...yes...EVERYONE
> needs to step back and listen to what the orig 6 want.
> We all belong to this club BUT they were the ones who started
> it... and gave
> it to us. To the original 6, or what's left of them, What do
> you want???
> What do you think??? To those who were after the orig 6... shut up and
> listen... Everyone has made good comments...some have just acted butt
> hurt... So orig 6 what do you want?
>
> anyone have $.98 change?
> Robert aka Fat Bob
>
>
> From: "jeepthang87yj" <jeep_thang@h...>
> To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:53 PM
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> > Oh come on as if there isn't enough clubs that want your money
> > already, and have little requirements you need to stay in the club,
> > and besides it's really stupid to pay money just to watch
> people talk
> > on the net.
> > Not me I'll vote against it.
> >
> > Sincerely: JEEP THANG
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > > Mike,
> > >
> > > Organization is in the air again.... and I suspect that
> once again,
> > it shall
> > > be shot down completely.
> > >
> > > There are enough organized clubs to join here in the valley if
> > people want
> > > to join. The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer, and
> > we
> > > already have a Webmaster who is doing a fantastic job <grin>.
> > >
> > > The only way that this group will become an organized entity is if
> > you can
> > > get every single member to vote for organization... and I hate to
> > tell you
> > > this; but I'll never vote for it...put it to a vote and watch how
> > badly it
> > > gets shot down.
> > >
> > > If people want to belong to an organized group, go off and start
> > your own
> > > organized group. Call it the Arizona Jeep Club or the Arizona
> > Axlebreakers
> > > or whatever... but I suggest that people not get their hopes up to
> > high for
> > > the AZVJC to EVER become organized.
> > >
> > > Ta-Ta till next year's organizational pleas start anew...
> > >
> > >
> > > Joe West
> > >
> > > Long live Anarchy!
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:29 AM
> > > To: 'az_vjc@y...'
> > > Subject: [az_vjc] Organized Clubs
> > >
> > >
> > > To all of those that already belong to an organized
> club, you may
> > now
> > > delete this message (or continue reading if you're curious).
> > >
> > > For everyone here that is interested:
> > >
> > > I talked to Sandee McCullen at the cleanup in January and have
> > been trying
> > > to figure out a way to bring this up to the group. Well it looks
> > like this
> > > may be the perfect time with all that has happened in the past day
> > or so.
> > >
> > > We can make the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club an incorporated club
> > and become
> > > a member club of the Arizona State Association of 4WD
> Clubs WITHOUT
> > > organizing (at least not any more than we already have). Sandee
> > said that we
> > > need three "officers" and bylaws, we don't have to have membership
> > > requirements, elections, "official" club runs. All the
> bylaws have
> > to say
> > > is who the officers are, how new members join, and when we have
> > meetings
> > > (even if it is never).
> > >
> > > Here is the way it would work. As it is now, anyone
> can join the
> > AzVJC
> > > via the website and post messages to the group, this WILL NOT
> > change. What
> > > changes is, once someone has joined the AzVJC and gone on one run
> > (so we can
> > > verify that they live in Arizona and HAVE a JEEP) then they can
> > join the
> > > Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated (AzVJC Inc). All they have
> > to do is
> > > pay their dues for the year. If they want to drop out of the AzVJC
> > Inc then
> > > they just don't pay the dues; it doesn't mean that they will be
> > dropped from
> > > the website or mailing list. Nothing else changes... all we're
> > doing is
> > > adding another option for our members.
> > >
> > > Here is what I'm thinking for the incorporation:
> > >
> > > For the three officers:
> > >
> > > President - Responsible for turning in New Membership
> Information
> > to
> > > ASA4WDC, attend ASA4WDC meetings. (I nominate DougB if he's
> > interested)
> > > Treasurer - Responsible for collecting money from members and
> > paying
> > > ASA4WDC and Az State. (I nominate Jon Loveless, if he's
> interested,
> > since he
> > > already does alot with stickers, etc...)
> > > Webmaster - Responsible for maintaining the website and e-mail
> > list.
> > >
> > > How to become a New Member: 1. Join the AzVJC 2. Go on a run
> > with the
> > > AzVJC (with at least one member of the AzVJC Inc present) 3. Pay
> > Dues.
> > > That's it.
> > >
> > > How to become a Non Member: 1. Don't pay your dues.
> > >
> > > Meetings and Elections: None. If a club officer steps down,
> > he/she
> > > chooses the replacement.
> > >
> > > Dues: I am thinking since Az State has decided that clubs are
> > only
> > > allowed 2 runs per month that we just include an individual permit
> > in the
> > > cost of the dues for the year. This way members of the AzVJC Inc
> > are double
> > > covered and they won't have to remember to get one every
> year (like
> > me).
> > > Also included in the cost of dues would be ASA4WDC membership.
> > Because of
> > > the incorporation, we'll likely have to start paying for the
> > webspace (which
> > > we currently get for free) which is $21.25/month. We could also
> > include
> > > things like paying to get rid of advertisements on Yahoo Groups,
> > extra
> > > stickers to hand out at events, flyers, banners, etc...
> I estimate
> > roughly
> > > $40/year which is right in line with most clubs.
> > >
> > > The benefits are: 1. The AzVJC will be covered by the ASA4WDC
> > million
> > > dollar insurance. 2. ASA4WDC and united will get more money to
> > fight the
> > > eco-nazis. 3. The AzVJC will finally be recognized as the largest
> > club at
> > > the ASA4WDC Jamboree :) 4. I'm sure there's more but my mind is
> > drawing a
> > > blank.
> > >
> > > The downside is: 1. Paying Dues. 2. There are no other
> > downsides, other
> > > than paying dues, nothing changes, and you only have to
> pay dues if
> > you want
> > > to (you just remain a member of AzVJC but not AzVJC Inc).
> > >
> > > Does this make sense? I'll post a poll to find out how many may
> > be
> > > interested. The initial start up costs will depend on the number
> > of people
> > > starting the AzVJC Inc as incorporation can initially be expensive
> > ($500?)
> > > ALSO, if anyone has been through the incorporation process before,
> > we could
> > > use your assistance.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > - Mike
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44441 From: <rlpii@q...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:47pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
Yup! :-)
Joe W wrote:
> Bob,
>
> Exactly.
>
> Joe
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rlpeckii [mailto:rlpii@q...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:55 PM
> > To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> > Mike,
> > I think what Joe is saying is that it is OK to create a new
> > club, just
> > don't "affiliate" it with the AZVJC. If some of the members want to
> > get together and set up the "Organized Arizona Jeep Club" or the
> > "Official Arizona Jeep Club" that is OK. Post something on the
> > AZVJC's site that it exists, and folks can join or not join as they
> > see fit. Under those circumstances, hell, I might even join :-)
> >
> > What most of us (I hope) don't want, is to F**k up a good thing like
> > the AZVJC. You, the orginal 6 (?) and all the rest of the active
> > members have done a fantastic job of creating probably the largest
> > (member wise) group of four wheelers in the nation and
> > probably in the
> > world. There is nothing stopping current members from starting a new
> > and organized club with dues, officers, and a charter etc. And I
> > don't think there is anything stopping a AZVJCer from joining and
> > affiliating with both clubs?
> >
> > This thread is starting to get ugly, the next thing will be
> > attorneys.
> > lawsuits and counter lawsuits. Can't we all just get along? :-)
> >
> > Let's go wheelin or something?
> >
> > Bob
> > 74 CJ-5
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...> wrote:
> > > And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non entity) has
> > legal
> > > right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it, the
> > AzVJC never
> > > incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't own
> > anything
> > > (including the copyrighted webpages).
> > >
> > > Just something to think about.
> > >
> > > BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want to be
> > a part
> > > of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change unless
> > YOU make
> > > the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
> > >
> > > - Mike
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> > > To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@y...
> > > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >
> > >
> > > Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a good
> > idea for
> > > those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the
> > AZVJC....
> > > webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
> > everyone's
> > > authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> > > separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
> > more than
> > any
> > > other club currently is.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44442 From: kmichael02 <kmichael02@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:46pm
Subject: why CAN'T THE VJC
Have a format like JU or Pirate 4x4...no offense but those formats
are cooler and easier to use????
mike
44443 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:42pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
<grin>
No... I made the mistake of joining the service at age 17...
It ruined me forever on autocratic systems.
Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eric Marble [mailto:EMarble3@p...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:49 PM
> To: arizonajeep@c...; 'Robert McNeeley'; 'Bill Mish';
> az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Joe were you a only child?
> Opps did I say that out loud?
> (just kidding)
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...>
> To: "'Robert McNeeley'" <robert.mcneeley@p...>; "'Bill Mish'"
> <yldkat55@h...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:35 PM
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> > All bow and worship the original six...
> >
> > Come on Bob, let's be real. Everyone counts, and
> everyone's ideas and
> > concerns count.
> > You suggest that we treat our group as an modified
> autocracy and I suggest
> > we treat it as a democracy.
> > I like Democracy Bob... because history has shown us where autocracy
> > leads... by the way, I'd prefer that you not tell me to
> shut-up... I view
> > this as a bad reflection on your upbringing.
> >
> > This group belongs to everyone, we have no leaders, we have
> no followers,
> we
> > have only 1024 members who are all absolute equals.
> >
> > By the way, have you ever longed to live in Iraq?
> >
> > Kind Regards,
> >
> > Joe West
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Robert McNeeley [mailto:robert.mcneeley@p...]
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:26 PM
> > > To: 'Bill Mish'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >
> > >
> > > There is nothing like having people take something that you
> > > created and
> > > developed and were kind enough to give access to and make it
> > > their own. Yes
> > > this is my club too because I am a member. However I did not
> > > create it,
> > > develop it, and let people join it. I am not saying that
> becoming an
> > > organized group is a good or bad thing... What ever
> > > happens...happens. I
> > > will still be part of the vjc. I just think that
> > > everyone...yes...EVERYONE
> > > needs to step back and listen to what the orig 6 want.
> > > We all belong to this club BUT they were the ones who started
> > > it... and gave
> > > it to us. To the original 6, or what's left of them, What do
> > > you want???
> > > What do you think??? To those who were after the orig
> 6... shut up and
> > > listen... Everyone has made good comments...some have
> just acted butt
> > > hurt... So orig 6 what do you want?
> > >
> > > anyone have $.98 change?
> > > Robert aka Fat Bob
> > >
> > >
> > > From: "jeepthang87yj" <jeep_thang@h...>
> > > To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:53 PM
> > > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> > >
> > >
> > > > Oh come on as if there isn't enough clubs that want your money
> > > > already, and have little requirements you need to stay
> in the club,
> > > > and besides it's really stupid to pay money just to watch
> > > people talk
> > > > on the net.
> > > > Not me I'll vote against it.
> > > >
> > > > Sincerely: JEEP THANG
> > > >
> > > > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > > > > Mike,
> > > > >
> > > > > Organization is in the air again.... and I suspect that
> > > once again,
> > > > it shall
> > > > > be shot down completely.
> > > > >
> > > > > There are enough organized clubs to join here in the valley if
> > > > people want
> > > > > to join. The AZVJC does not need a President, or a
> Treasurer, and
> > > > we
> > > > > already have a Webmaster who is doing a fantastic job <grin>.
> > > > >
> > > > > The only way that this group will become an organized
> entity is if
> > > > you can
> > > > > get every single member to vote for organization...
> and I hate to
> > > > tell you
> > > > > this; but I'll never vote for it...put it to a vote
> and watch how
> > > > badly it
> > > > > gets shot down.
> > > > >
> > > > > If people want to belong to an organized group, go
> off and start
> > > > your own
> > > > > organized group. Call it the Arizona Jeep Club or the Arizona
> > > > Axlebreakers
> > > > > or whatever... but I suggest that people not get
> their hopes up to
> > > > high for
> > > > > the AZVJC to EVER become organized.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ta-Ta till next year's organizational pleas start anew...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Joe West
> > > > >
> > > > > Long live Anarchy!
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:29 AM
> > > > > To: 'az_vjc@y...'
> > > > > Subject: [az_vjc] Organized Clubs
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > To all of those that already belong to an organized
> > > club, you may
> > > > now
> > > > > delete this message (or continue reading if you're curious).
> > > > >
> > > > > For everyone here that is interested:
> > > > >
> > > > > I talked to Sandee McCullen at the cleanup in
> January and have
> > > > been trying
> > > > > to figure out a way to bring this up to the group.
> Well it looks
> > > > like this
> > > > > may be the perfect time with all that has happened in
> the past day
> > > > or so.
> > > > >
> > > > > We can make the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club an
> incorporated club
> > > > and become
> > > > > a member club of the Arizona State Association of 4WD
> > > Clubs WITHOUT
> > > > > organizing (at least not any more than we already
> have). Sandee
> > > > said that we
> > > > > need three "officers" and bylaws, we don't have to
> have membership
> > > > > requirements, elections, "official" club runs. All the
> > > bylaws have
> > > > to say
> > > > > is who the officers are, how new members join, and
> when we have
> > > > meetings
> > > > > (even if it is never).
> > > > >
> > > > > Here is the way it would work. As it is now, anyone
> > > can join the
> > > > AzVJC
> > > > > via the website and post messages to the group, this WILL NOT
> > > > change. What
> > > > > changes is, once someone has joined the AzVJC and
> gone on one run
> > > > (so we can
> > > > > verify that they live in Arizona and HAVE a JEEP)
> then they can
> > > > join the
> > > > > Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated (AzVJC Inc).
> All they have
> > > > to do is
> > > > > pay their dues for the year. If they want to drop out
> of the AzVJC
> > > > Inc then
> > > > > they just don't pay the dues; it doesn't mean that
> they will be
> > > > dropped from
> > > > > the website or mailing list. Nothing else changes...
> all we're
> > > > doing is
> > > > > adding another option for our members.
> > > > >
> > > > > Here is what I'm thinking for the incorporation:
> > > > >
> > > > > For the three officers:
> > > > >
> > > > > President - Responsible for turning in New Membership
> > > Information
> > > > to
> > > > > ASA4WDC, attend ASA4WDC meetings. (I nominate DougB if he's
> > > > interested)
> > > > > Treasurer - Responsible for collecting money from
> members and
> > > > paying
> > > > > ASA4WDC and Az State. (I nominate Jon Loveless, if he's
> > > interested,
> > > > since he
> > > > > already does alot with stickers, etc...)
> > > > > Webmaster - Responsible for maintaining the website
> and e-mail
> > > > list.
> > > > >
> > > > > How to become a New Member: 1. Join the AzVJC 2.
> Go on a run
> > > > with the
> > > > > AzVJC (with at least one member of the AzVJC Inc
> present) 3. Pay
> > > > Dues.
> > > > > That's it.
> > > > >
> > > > > How to become a Non Member: 1. Don't pay your dues.
> > > > >
> > > > > Meetings and Elections: None. If a club officer steps down,
> > > > he/she
> > > > > chooses the replacement.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dues: I am thinking since Az State has decided
> that clubs are
> > > > only
> > > > > allowed 2 runs per month that we just include an
> individual permit
> > > > in the
> > > > > cost of the dues for the year. This way members of
> the AzVJC Inc
> > > > are double
> > > > > covered and they won't have to remember to get one every
> > > year (like
> > > > me).
> > > > > Also included in the cost of dues would be ASA4WDC membership.
> > > > Because of
> > > > > the incorporation, we'll likely have to start paying for the
> > > > webspace (which
> > > > > we currently get for free) which is $21.25/month. We
> could also
> > > > include
> > > > > things like paying to get rid of advertisements on
> Yahoo Groups,
> > > > extra
> > > > > stickers to hand out at events, flyers, banners, etc...
> > > I estimate
> > > > roughly
> > > > > $40/year which is right in line with most clubs.
> > > > >
> > > > > The benefits are: 1. The AzVJC will be covered by
> the ASA4WDC
> > > > million
> > > > > dollar insurance. 2. ASA4WDC and united will get more money to
> > > > fight the
> > > > > eco-nazis. 3. The AzVJC will finally be recognized as
> the largest
> > > > club at
> > > > > the ASA4WDC Jamboree :) 4. I'm sure there's more but
> my mind is
> > > > drawing a
> > > > > blank.
> > > > >
> > > > > The downside is: 1. Paying Dues. 2. There are no other
> > > > downsides, other
> > > > > than paying dues, nothing changes, and you only have to
> > > pay dues if
> > > > you want
> > > > > to (you just remain a member of AzVJC but not AzVJC Inc).
> > > > >
> > > > > Does this make sense? I'll post a poll to find out
> how many may
> > > > be
> > > > > interested. The initial start up costs will depend
> on the number
> > > > of people
> > > > > starting the AzVJC Inc as incorporation can initially
> be expensive
> > > > ($500?)
> > > > > ALSO, if anyone has been through the incorporation
> process before,
> > > > we could
> > > > > use your assistance.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > - Mike
> > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > > > Service.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44444 From: az_jeeper_mike <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:41pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs
> Splitting the group into two clubs will ultimately lead to the
> demise of one or the other.
I'm not talking about SPLITTING the AzVJC. I'm talking about giving
its members the OPTION of paying dues, for this they get an ASA4WDC
Membership, a United Membership, and a Az State Land Use Permit. If
they opt not to take this offer, then great.
> Should we become real so we can be regulated?
No more regulated than we alread are.
> Should we become real so we can have officers or pay dues?
Absolutely not. That is not the reason for it.
> If you'd care to elaborate on the benefits you see to being real;
> I'd be more than happy to have a nice debate with you.
Ok, here's the benefits for the individual.
1. ASA4WDC membership for $18/year instead of $25. BTW, Sandee
mentioned that the ASA4WDC is considering severely limiting the
number of individual memberships or eliminating them altogether;
which means that you MIGHT NOT be able to get an individual ASA4WDC
membership in a year or so.
2. United membership for FREE (as part of the $18 to ASA4WDC)
3. Land Use Permit (still same price, but you won't have to remember
each year to renew it)
4. One stop shopping online makes getting all three of the above
easier.
Here's the benefits for the AzVJC.
1. MILLION DOLLAR INSURANCE policy.
2. Any extra revenue from the dues can be used for paying to get rid
of advertisements in the e-mail list, buying stickers for club
promotion, banners, flyers, etc...
3. NOTHING changes, unless you VOLUNTARILY pay dues to receive the
benefits listed above.
Also some things that are less important, but yet I still see as
benefitial to the club.
4. Recognition - no doubt the AzVJC will be the largest club at the
ASA4WDC Jamboree. Plus you won't hear anymore whining about the
AzVJC not being a "real" club. Also the AzVJC will be listed on the
ASA4WDC website.
5. Help - as an incorporated club, the AzVJC can participate in
the "Adopt-A-Trail" program, get more help (trash-bins, water, give-
away merchandise, etc..) when organizing clean-ups.
Here's the benefits for our sport:
1. MORE MONEY TO FIGHT ECO-NAZIS will be going to ASA4WDC and United.
2. As an "official" club of the ASA4WDC, we'll likely get even more
members that wheel. Which means more people for the veteran 4
wheelers to mentor in the proper trail etiquette (i.e. T.R.E.A.D.
Lightly!)
3. More recognition also means that more people will become aware
that the 4 wheelers are not the bunch of Drunken Crazed Lunatics
Bashing Through the Desert Running Over Wildlife, Trees and Bushes
that the Greenies would like to portray us as.
> As far as taking the AzVJC name... ABSOLUTELY NOT!
Watch me.
> If you want to create a separate group
This isn't about creating a separate group. IT IS about giving the
members of THIS GROUP a new OPTION.
> Your suggestion of having people join the Arizona LowRangers is a
> good one.
IF there isn't alot of interest in an AzVJC Inc, then this is the
route I'll likely take.
> However, I believe your attempts to "organize" our group are
> misguided and not at all in the interests of the majority of the
> people in our club.
Do you still think so? It is the majority of the people in the club
that I AM thinking about. That any everyone else in this state that
appreciates our sport. My goal here is not to get people that have no
desire to be part of an organized club into one; my desire is to give
members the OPTION to easily SUPPORT thier sport. In my experience,
if it isn't easy for someone to do, and they don't get much out of
it, they WON'T do it. Look at the Tech page on the website. Lots of
questions (which it isn't for that) very few answers (everyone just
answers via e-mail) and even fewer real technical articles. Where is
the Electric Fan vs. Mechanical fan debate. Or the How much lift to
fit my tires. Or V8 vs I6, or Lockers vs Limited Slip, or Detroit vs
ARB discussions? They are not there because it isn't easy and the
users don't get much benefit from putting it up there EVEN THOUGH
someone else might benefit from it. (There are a few exceptions)
All I am trying to do here is make it easier for the AzVJC membership
to become members of ASA4WDC and United and get a Land Use Permit, is
that so wrong?
> This is yet another case of; if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
You know I bet there was nothing wrong with your Jeep when you drove
it off the lot at the dealer, but it sure doesn't look the same now
as it did then. Obviously you didn't apply this same rule, eh?
- Mike
44445 From: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:48pm
Subject: New poll for az_vjc
Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
az_vjc group:
Did you get your Az State Land Use
Permit this year?
o Yes
o No
o Oops, I forgot, I'll get one soon though, I promise.
To vote, please visit the following web page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/az_vjc/polls
Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.
Thanks!
44446 From: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:49pm
Subject: New poll for az_vjc
Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
az_vjc group:
Did you get your United Membership yet
this year?
o Yes
o No
o Oops, I forgot, I'll get one soon though, I promise.
To vote, please visit the following web page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/az_vjc/polls
Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.
Thanks!
44447 From: Roger Tomas <tomasr@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:50pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs
Mike,
I think your intentions are good and I commend you for trying to take
action. However, I think you need to spell out exactly what your goals
so that alternative approaches can be identified. Getting more money
to the organizations that fight for our lands seems to be an obvious
goal. But it's not clear what else you were intending to accomplish
given the other benefits you listed. In any case, I'm sure there's
more than one way to achieve them and I don't think the "shadow club"
is gonna' fly.
As a side note, I think there is a fundamental flaw in what you have
proposed. It's not clear to me how, if a "shadow club" was formed,
the benefits extended to the "shadow club" would also be extended to
the AZVJC. In addition, the stipulations about formally announcing
official club runs beforehand (as was described in a previous post)
seems to complicate matters (if this previous information is accurate).
If these truly are flaws in your proposal, then all this debate about
organizing is irrevelent.
-Roger
> "Chatfield, Mike" wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> The benefits are: 1. The AzVJC will be covered by the ASA4WDC million
> dollar insurance. 2. ASA4WDC and united will get more money to fight
> the eco-nazis. 3. The AzVJC will finally be recognized as the largest
> club at the ASA4WDC Jamboree :) 4. I'm sure there's more but my mind
> is drawing a blank.
>
> The downside is: 1. Paying Dues. 2. There are no other downsides, other
> than paying dues, nothing changes, and you only have to pay dues if you
> want to (you just remain a member of AzVJC but not AzVJC Inc).
>
> <snip>
>
> - Mike
44448 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:46pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
OK, that is way beyond what is called for!
Do you know Joe and how many people he has helped? If not, Shut the hell up!
Joe has contibuted more to this group than a large majority of the members.
He will drop what he is doing to help a fellow Jeeper. The fact that you
don't know this shows your ignorance.
Losing Joe would be a major asset loss for this group. If you don't know
that, you have a long way to go.
Chris
> From: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>
> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:35:53 -0700
> To: arizonajeep@c..., "'Chatfield, Mike'" <Mike@A...>,
> az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
> Promise?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:09 PM
> To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
> Mike,
>
> I'm not talking legal anything... I'm against ANYONE who chooses to divide
> (shadow... whatever word you choose to use) the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club.
> Unless you get a simple majority (1 vote greater than half the current
> membership count) voting for this shadow club... I will believe that it was
> the wrong thing to do. If you do manage to get a simple majority for this
> new "real" club, I will believe that it was the right thing for the club to
> do... but the wrong thing for me... at which point I will silently go away.
>
> I'm against it Mike, because I am all too familiar with the divisiveness of
> "real" groups... Although you have put a great deal of time into our club
> webpage, it does not authorize you to take our name and give it to another
> group. Even the original six members voting for it cannot authorize this
> change... there must be a majority vote for this to be a fair and honest
> change.
>
> The spirit of this club will change Mike... and there is nothing you, or
> anyone else, will be able to do to stop it. We don't need rules, or bylaws,
> or a board of directors and incorporation... You are pressing for change
> which will ultimately redefine our group and I don't want this to happen.
>
> Joe
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
>> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>>
>>
>> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
>> entity) has legal
>> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
>> the AzVJC never
>> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't
>> own anything
>> (including the copyrighted webpages).
>>
>> Just something to think about.
>>
>> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want
>> to be a part
>> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
>> unless YOU make
>> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
>>
>> - Mike
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
>> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>>
>>
>> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a
>> good idea for
>> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
>> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
>> everyone's
>> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
>> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
>> more than any
>> other club currently is.
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44449 From: Jayke Thorpe <jeepboy_3@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:54pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
I think everyone is getting a little to excited. What
happen to our "Who's off today", "How do you fix...",
you know, those kind of posts? This is straying us
from what we really enjoy about this group.
Jayke
--- Joe W <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> Hi Brian,
>
> If it turns out that you want to spend your money on
> a real club, feel
> free... try the Arizona LowRangers, I hear that they
> are a good group of
> guys and gals.
> I will suggest that you don't get your hopes up too
> high for a separate
> group with the AZVJC name though... cause it isn't
> going to happen.
>
> Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:26 PM
> To: David R. W. Withers; 'az_jeeper_mike';
> az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Hi David,
>
> I thought you were going away for awhile... What
> happened?
>
> How about not telling me how to spend my money...
> If I want to spend it on
> AzVJC for a membership club I should be able to. I
> want to contribute to
> this club in that way.
>
> If you don't want to participate then don't.
> Continue to be a member in
> the form you are now. Still sounds like everyone is
> welcome. Even You <grin>
>
> Do you think it devalues your membership because
> there are those who are
> willing to contribute monetarily to the club and
> those who aren't?
>
> Brian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David R. W. Withers
> To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:09 PM
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> If you want to help out, give your money to
> those organized clubs.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:53 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Joe,
>
> I think you missed the point here. The idea is
> not to change the AzVJC
> as it is, but in essence to create a 2nd club, a
> shadow club. The AzVJC
> will remain unchanged, people will still come
> and go as they please,
> there will still be no dues, no elections, no
> rules, just as it is now.
> However, members of the AzVJC will have the
> OPTION to join the 2nd club
> and the only requirement that is different is
> that they will need to pay
> dues; in addition, the other "requirements" (ie.
> live in Az, own a Jeep)
> will simply be enforced.
>
> I agree that the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club does
> not need anything else.
> However, offering the OPTION of joining a "Real"
> club that is a shadow
> of the Az "Virtual" JC, I can only see this as a
> good thing for both the
> individuals and our sport in general. Once
> again to be part of the
> AzVJC, nothing changes. To join the shadow
> club, you simply need to pay
> dues.
>
> I thought alot about the name for the 2nd group.
> And even though the V
> stands for "Virtual," I really think it should
> be the same name. Any
> other name wouldn't fit right "Arizona Real Jeep
> Club", "Arizona Jeep
> Club" and besides, then I'd have to create a
> whole new website
> (www.AzRJC.org or www.AzJC.org).
>
> Again this isn't an effort to ORGANIZE the
> AzVJC, it is an effort to
> provide the membership of the AzVJC another
> OPTION. And I disagree that
> the entire AzVJC membership would have to
> approve of such a thing, those
> that don't approve or don't want to don't have
> to join the shadow club.
> All we need is enough interest to see it through
> and enough initial
> members to split the costs of incorporation.
>
> I could even add a field to the Member Profiles
> called "Affiliated Club"
> in which members could put whatever "real" club
> they belong to. I
> suspect that alot of AzVJC members are members
> of the Az Lo-Rangers as
> well.
>
> The bottom line here is that I'm trying to make
> it easy for members of
> the AzVJC to join and maintain membership of an
> "organized club." The
> idea is to provide a webpage where they can pay
> their dues via PayPal
> and be done with it. No meetings to attend no
> check to write and mail,
> just an online payment. If the AzVJC shadow
> club doesn't interest
> anyone, would the membership of the Az
> LowRangers perhaps be willing to
> let our members join "On-Line" and pay their
> dues via PayPal? Since the
> Az-Low Rangers rules are very similiar to the
> AzVJC's anyhow.
>
> - Mike
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...>
> wrote:
> > The AZVJC does not need a President, or a
> Treasurer...
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of Service.
>
>
=====
S. Jayke Thorpe
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
44450 From: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:49pm
Subject: New poll for az_vjc
Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
az_vjc group:
Did you get your ASA4WDC membership yet
this year?
o Yes
o No
o Oops, I forgot, I'll get one soon though, I promise.
To vote, please visit the following web page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/az_vjc/polls
Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.
Thanks!
44451 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:55pm
Subject: FW: way off the subject (tug boat roll)
I stole this from another email list
I know everybody is enjoying the "O" topic today, but I wanted to post this.
It shows that we are not the only ones that have to worry about rolling
offroad.
tug boat roll <http://www.netcopspsi.com/temp/towboat.htm>
Enjoy!
Chris
44452 From: Robert McNeeley <robert.mcneeley@p...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:55pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
100% correct!
Robert
-----Original Message-----
From: Jayke Thorpe [mailto:jeepboy_3@y...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:55 PM
To: arizonajeep@c...; 'Brian Hill'; 'David R. W. Withers';
'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
I think everyone is getting a little to excited. What
happen to our "Who's off today", "How do you fix...",
you know, those kind of posts? This is straying us
from what we really enjoy about this group.
Jayke
--- Joe W <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> Hi Brian,
>
> If it turns out that you want to spend your money on
> a real club, feel
> free... try the Arizona LowRangers, I hear that they
> are a good group of
> guys and gals.
> I will suggest that you don't get your hopes up too
> high for a separate
> group with the AZVJC name though... cause it isn't
> going to happen.
>
> Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:26 PM
> To: David R. W. Withers; 'az_jeeper_mike';
> az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Hi David,
>
> I thought you were going away for awhile... What
> happened?
>
> How about not telling me how to spend my money...
> If I want to spend it on
> AzVJC for a membership club I should be able to. I
> want to contribute to
> this club in that way.
>
> If you don't want to participate then don't.
> Continue to be a member in
> the form you are now. Still sounds like everyone is
> welcome. Even You <grin>
>
> Do you think it devalues your membership because
> there are those who are
> willing to contribute monetarily to the club and
> those who aren't?
>
> Brian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David R. W. Withers
> To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:09 PM
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> If you want to help out, give your money to
> those organized clubs.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:53 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Joe,
>
> I think you missed the point here. The idea is
> not to change the AzVJC
> as it is, but in essence to create a 2nd club, a
> shadow club. The AzVJC
> will remain unchanged, people will still come
> and go as they please,
> there will still be no dues, no elections, no
> rules, just as it is now.
> However, members of the AzVJC will have the
> OPTION to join the 2nd club
> and the only requirement that is different is
> that they will need to pay
> dues; in addition, the other "requirements" (ie.
> live in Az, own a Jeep)
> will simply be enforced.
>
> I agree that the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club does
> not need anything else.
> However, offering the OPTION of joining a "Real"
> club that is a shadow
> of the Az "Virtual" JC, I can only see this as a
> good thing for both the
> individuals and our sport in general. Once
> again to be part of the
> AzVJC, nothing changes. To join the shadow
> club, you simply need to pay
> dues.
>
> I thought alot about the name for the 2nd group.
> And even though the V
> stands for "Virtual," I really think it should
> be the same name. Any
> other name wouldn't fit right "Arizona Real Jeep
> Club", "Arizona Jeep
> Club" and besides, then I'd have to create a
> whole new website
> (www.AzRJC.org or www.AzJC.org).
>
> Again this isn't an effort to ORGANIZE the
> AzVJC, it is an effort to
> provide the membership of the AzVJC another
> OPTION. And I disagree that
> the entire AzVJC membership would have to
> approve of such a thing, those
> that don't approve or don't want to don't have
> to join the shadow club.
> All we need is enough interest to see it through
> and enough initial
> members to split the costs of incorporation.
>
> I could even add a field to the Member Profiles
> called "Affiliated Club"
> in which members could put whatever "real" club
> they belong to. I
> suspect that alot of AzVJC members are members
> of the Az Lo-Rangers as
> well.
>
> The bottom line here is that I'm trying to make
> it easy for members of
> the AzVJC to join and maintain membership of an
> "organized club." The
> idea is to provide a webpage where they can pay
> their dues via PayPal
> and be done with it. No meetings to attend no
> check to write and mail,
> just an online payment. If the AzVJC shadow
> club doesn't interest
> anyone, would the membership of the Az
> LowRangers perhaps be willing to
> let our members join "On-Line" and pay their
> dues via PayPal? Since the
> Az-Low Rangers rules are very similiar to the
> AzVJC's anyhow.
>
> - Mike
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...>
> wrote:
> > The AZVJC does not need a President, or a
> Treasurer...
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of Service.
>
>
=====
S. Jayke Thorpe
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion!
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44453 From: Robert McNeeley <robert.mcneeley@p...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:51pm
Subject: RE: RE: Organized Clubs
Good point and this is the best club I have seen so far...
Robert
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:20 PM
To: 'jeepfanatic97'
Cc: Azvjc (E-mail)
Subject: [az_vjc] RE: Organized Clubs
Rob,
I can't speak for everyone else, but the reason I'm against this is because
anytime you make rules, and put people in positions of authority over other
people... or a group of people, things change.
I honestly believe that the AZVJC is PERFECT... in the most absolute sense
of the word. If something is perfect, by definition, it doesn't need to
change.
If someone can show me how our club isn't perfect as it is, I'll be happy to
reconsider my position.
Kind Regards,
Joe West
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44454 From: Bill Witt <k7ant@t...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:00pm
Subject: Re: 4x4 clubs
Adios! And its obvious your girlfriend doesn't know a small unit from a
large bolder. Sounds like a libber, not a jeep gal.
Bill W
K7ANT
97 TJ with a few mods.
http://k7ant.rockcrawler.com/
Up on the Mogollon Rim in God and 4 wheeler's country.
----- Original Message -----
From: "vpheiple" <vpheiple@m...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 1:02 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] 4x4 clubs
> Do any of you know of any normal family oriented clubs, whose whole
> purpose in life is not to tear up their Jeeps, but to enjoy a weekend
> away from the city. Your site is very interesting, but seems to be
> tailored more to the radical side of offroading, most of the messages
> I have read are about modifications made to Jeeps and where to get
> parts after you tear your Jeeps up. I do agree with many of the
> points you bring up about people staying off of trails they don't
> belong on, but like my fiance says "Big tires and lift kits are a
> representation of a small male unit" I would equate this to driving
> over large boulders too, even if you have to ramp both sides to get
> it done. Don't get me wrong, I realize that most of you go offroad
> because you love the challenge and I am sure it is a pure adrenlin
> rush taking something you have built and being able to do something
> with it that not many others can do. That's why there are so many
> want to be's messing up your trails, they don't see that they are
> ruining the trail, just that they made it to the top. It is great
> that your club see's the benefits of keeping what you have,where I
> come from so much of the land is closed to 4x4's, you are quite lucky
> to have the opportunity get off the road.
>
> Best Regards
>
> Vern Heiple
>
>
> p.s. Having to clean up other peoples messes is a part of life
> because most people only care about themselves and whats good for
> them at the time.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44455 From: Eric Marble <emarble3@p...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:08pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
If it wasn't for Joes Jeep how would the little ones learn to read?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
To: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>; <arizonajeep@c...>;
<az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> OK, that is way beyond what is called for!
> Do you know Joe and how many people he has helped? If not, Shut the hell
up!
> Joe has contibuted more to this group than a large majority of the
members.
> He will drop what he is doing to help a fellow Jeeper. The fact that you
> don't know this shows your ignorance.
> Losing Joe would be a major asset loss for this group. If you don't know
> that, you have a long way to go.
>
> Chris
>
> > From: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>
> > Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:35:53 -0700
> > To: arizonajeep@c..., "'Chatfield, Mike'" <Mike@A...>,
> > az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> > Promise?
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:09 PM
> > To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> > I'm not talking legal anything... I'm against ANYONE who chooses to
divide
> > (shadow... whatever word you choose to use) the Arizona Virtual Jeep
Club.
> > Unless you get a simple majority (1 vote greater than half the current
> > membership count) voting for this shadow club... I will believe that it
was
> > the wrong thing to do. If you do manage to get a simple majority for
this
> > new "real" club, I will believe that it was the right thing for the club
to
> > do... but the wrong thing for me... at which point I will silently go
away.
> >
> > I'm against it Mike, because I am all too familiar with the divisiveness
of
> > "real" groups... Although you have put a great deal of time into our
club
> > webpage, it does not authorize you to take our name and give it to
another
> > group. Even the original six members voting for it cannot authorize
this
> > change... there must be a majority vote for this to be a fair and honest
> > change.
> >
> > The spirit of this club will change Mike... and there is nothing you, or
> > anyone else, will be able to do to stop it. We don't need rules, or
bylaws,
> > or a board of directors and incorporation... You are pressing for
change
> > which will ultimately redefine our group and I don't want this to
happen.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> >> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> >> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> >> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>
> >>
> >> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
> >> entity) has legal
> >> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
> >> the AzVJC never
> >> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't
> >> own anything
> >> (including the copyrighted webpages).
> >>
> >> Just something to think about.
> >>
> >> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want
> >> to be a part
> >> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
> >> unless YOU make
> >> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
> >>
> >> - Mike
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> >> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> >> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> >> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >>
> >>
> >> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a
> >> good idea for
> >> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
> >> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
> >> everyone's
> >> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> >> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
> >> more than any
> >> other club currently is.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44456 From: Brian Hill <brian@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:08pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
The fact that he has helped a lot of others is good. The fact that he is so
sensitive is not. The fact that you come to his aid is a nice touch too. But
after the noise he has made today in a negative way, who cares?
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:47 PM
To: Brian Hill; arizonajeep@c...; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
OK, that is way beyond what is called for!
Do you know Joe and how many people he has helped? If not, Shut the hell up!
Joe has contibuted more to this group than a large majority of the members.
He will drop what he is doing to help a fellow Jeeper. The fact that you
don't know this shows your ignorance.
Losing Joe would be a major asset loss for this group. If you don't know
that, you have a long way to go.
Chris
> From: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>
> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:35:53 -0700
> To: arizonajeep@c..., "'Chatfield, Mike'" <Mike@A...>,
> az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
> Promise?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:09 PM
> To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
> Mike,
>
> I'm not talking legal anything... I'm against ANYONE who chooses to divide
> (shadow... whatever word you choose to use) the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club.
> Unless you get a simple majority (1 vote greater than half the current
> membership count) voting for this shadow club... I will believe that it
was
> the wrong thing to do. If you do manage to get a simple majority for this
> new "real" club, I will believe that it was the right thing for the club
to
> do... but the wrong thing for me... at which point I will silently go
away.
>
> I'm against it Mike, because I am all too familiar with the divisiveness
of
> "real" groups... Although you have put a great deal of time into our club
> webpage, it does not authorize you to take our name and give it to another
> group. Even the original six members voting for it cannot authorize this
> change... there must be a majority vote for this to be a fair and honest
> change.
>
> The spirit of this club will change Mike... and there is nothing you, or
> anyone else, will be able to do to stop it. We don't need rules, or
bylaws,
> or a board of directors and incorporation... You are pressing for change
> which will ultimately redefine our group and I don't want this to happen.
>
> Joe
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
>> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>>
>>
>> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
>> entity) has legal
>> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
>> the AzVJC never
>> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't
>> own anything
>> (including the copyrighted webpages).
>>
>> Just something to think about.
>>
>> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want
>> to be a part
>> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
>> unless YOU make
>> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
>>
>> - Mike
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
>> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>>
>>
>> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a
>> good idea for
>> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
>> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
>> everyone's
>> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
>> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
>> more than any
>> other club currently is.
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44457 From: az_jeeper_mike <azvjc@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:55pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs
My point once again is that this IS NOT ABOUT CHANGING THE AZVJC. It
is about GIVING AZVJC MEMBERS the OPTION to join ASA4WDC, United and
get a State Land Use Permit at a DISCOUNTED price ($5 off).
My freaking goodness people, you're acting like we're going to come
in your house and put a meter on your computer and charge you
everytime you hit the AzVJC website.
Fureak!
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "rlpeckii" <rlpii@q...> wrote:
> Mike,
> I think what Joe is saying is that it is OK to create a new club,
> just don't "affiliate" it with the AZVJC.
44458 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:04pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
LMAO!!
Chris
> From: "Eric Marble" <EMarble3@p...>
> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:08:20 -0700
> To: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>, <arizonajeep@c...>,
> <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>, "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
> If it wasn't for Joes Jeep how would the little ones learn to read?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Krieg" <rv6a@m...>
> To: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>; <arizonajeep@c...>;
> <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
>> OK, that is way beyond what is called for!
>> Do you know Joe and how many people he has helped? If not, Shut the hell
> up!
>> Joe has contibuted more to this group than a large majority of the
> members.
>> He will drop what he is doing to help a fellow Jeeper. The fact that you
>> don't know this shows your ignorance.
>> Losing Joe would be a major asset loss for this group. If you don't know
>> that, you have a long way to go.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>> From: "Brian Hill" <brian@a...>
>>> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:35:53 -0700
>>> To: arizonajeep@c..., "'Chatfield, Mike'" <Mike@A...>,
>>> az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>>>
>>> Promise?
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:09 PM
>>> To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>>>
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>> I'm not talking legal anything... I'm against ANYONE who chooses to
> divide
>>> (shadow... whatever word you choose to use) the Arizona Virtual Jeep
> Club.
>>> Unless you get a simple majority (1 vote greater than half the current
>>> membership count) voting for this shadow club... I will believe that it
> was
>>> the wrong thing to do. If you do manage to get a simple majority for
> this
>>> new "real" club, I will believe that it was the right thing for the club
> to
>>> do... but the wrong thing for me... at which point I will silently go
> away.
>>>
>>> I'm against it Mike, because I am all too familiar with the divisiveness
> of
>>> "real" groups... Although you have put a great deal of time into our
> club
>>> webpage, it does not authorize you to take our name and give it to
> another
>>> group. Even the original six members voting for it cannot authorize
> this
>>> change... there must be a majority vote for this to be a fair and honest
>