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01-04-2004, 02:07 PM
44410-44434

44410 From: Neal Han**** <azredrocker@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:06pm
Subject: RE: New poll for az_vjc




All Clay and Eric are saying is that VJC runs are not covered under any individuals land permit's for the whole club. And now State Trust is requiring all clubs to list they're runs or events in advance with Tami Pike. Each club is only allowed an average of 2 runs or events per month over one years time. Also if you are an incorporated club you gets land permit for club runs, million dollar liability coverage for club events,and membership with ASA4WDC and United. If you plan to do more than the 1 or 2 club events a month then you have to have a indiviual permit.

So if you don't want to be in a club with B.S. bylaws that's ok, then pay ASA $25 for membership which gets you the same thing. Its not hard to figure out, do the home work and you'll see the big picture is greater than any one indiviual. The only reason to belong to any organization is to fight the greenies!




Mark Mesalam wrote:

Before I would be able to decide I would need to know what would be the
benefit of Incorporating.

-----Original Message-----
From: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:az_vjc@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:33 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] New poll for az_vjc


Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
az_vjc group:

Would you be interested in Joining an
Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated?

o Yes
o Maybe
o No


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/az_vjc/polls

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!









Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/






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44411 From: jeepin_in_az <jeepin_in_az@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:05pm
Subject: Re: Flagstaff 4 x4


Where is "turd brown"? Chirs lives up there, and he does work at an
off-road shop, don't know which one though....

Mike Baney


--- In az_vjc@y..., "rick_logan2002" <rlogan@d...> wrote:
> Anybody have an opionion on this company


44412 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:08pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs


Mike,

I'm not talking legal anything... I'm against ANYONE who chooses to divide
(shadow... whatever word you choose to use) the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club.
Unless you get a simple majority (1 vote greater than half the current
membership count) voting for this shadow club... I will believe that it was
the wrong thing to do. If you do manage to get a simple majority for this
new "real" club, I will believe that it was the right thing for the club to
do... but the wrong thing for me... at which point I will silently go away.

I'm against it Mike, because I am all too familiar with the divisiveness of
"real" groups... Although you have put a great deal of time into our club
webpage, it does not authorize you to take our name and give it to another
group. Even the original six members voting for it cannot authorize this
change... there must be a majority vote for this to be a fair and honest
change.

The spirit of this club will change Mike... and there is nothing you, or
anyone else, will be able to do to stop it. We don't need rules, or bylaws,
or a board of directors and incorporation... You are pressing for change
which will ultimately redefine our group and I don't want this to happen.

Joe

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
> entity) has legal
> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
> the AzVJC never
> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't
> own anything
> (including the copyrighted webpages).
>
> Just something to think about.
>
> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want
> to be a part
> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
> unless YOU make
> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
>
> - Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a
> good idea for
> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
> everyone's
> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
> more than any
> other club currently is.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


44413 From: kcvehr <kc@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:06pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs


Actually you would not be paying to talk on the net you would be
paying to support our sport. It wont matter if you pay or not
because the AZ_VJC as we know it would still exist.
KC Vehr

--- In az_vjc@y..., "jeepthang87yj" <jeep_thang@h...> wrote:
> Oh come on as if there isn't enough clubs that want your money
> already, and have little requirements you need to stay in the club,
> and besides it's really stupid to pay money just to watch people
talk
> on the net.
> Not me I'll vote against it.
>
> Sincerely: JEEP THANG
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > Mike,
> >
> > Organization is in the air again.... and I suspect that once
again,
> it shall
> > be shot down completely.
> >
> > There are enough organized clubs to join here in the valley if
> people want
> > to join. The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer,
and
> we
> > already have a Webmaster who is doing a fantastic job <grin>.
> >
> > The only way that this group will become an organized entity is
if
> you can
> > get every single member to vote for organization... and I hate to
> tell you
> > this; but I'll never vote for it...put it to a vote and watch how
> badly it
> > gets shot down.
> >
> > If people want to belong to an organized group, go off and start
> your own
> > organized group. Call it the Arizona Jeep Club or the Arizona
> Axlebreakers
> > or whatever... but I suggest that people not get their hopes up
to
> high for
> > the AZVJC to EVER become organized.
> >
> > Ta-Ta till next year's organizational pleas start anew...
> >
> >
> > Joe West
> >
> > Long live Anarchy!
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:29 AM
> > To: 'az_vjc@y...'
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> > To all of those that already belong to an organized club, you
may
> now
> > delete this message (or continue reading if you're curious).
> >
> > For everyone here that is interested:
> >
> > I talked to Sandee McCullen at the cleanup in January and have
> been trying
> > to figure out a way to bring this up to the group. Well it looks
> like this
> > may be the perfect time with all that has happened in the past
day
> or so.
> >
> > We can make the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club an incorporated club
> and become
> > a member club of the Arizona State Association of 4WD Clubs
WITHOUT
> > organizing (at least not any more than we already have). Sandee
> said that we
> > need three "officers" and bylaws, we don't have to have membership
> > requirements, elections, "official" club runs. All the bylaws
have
> to say
> > is who the officers are, how new members join, and when we have
> meetings
> > (even if it is never).
> >
> > Here is the way it would work. As it is now, anyone can join
the
> AzVJC
> > via the website and post messages to the group, this WILL NOT
> change. What
> > changes is, once someone has joined the AzVJC and gone on one run
> (so we can
> > verify that they live in Arizona and HAVE a JEEP) then they can
> join the
> > Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated (AzVJC Inc). All they
have
> to do is
> > pay their dues for the year. If they want to drop out of the
AzVJC
> Inc then
> > they just don't pay the dues; it doesn't mean that they will be
> dropped from
> > the website or mailing list. Nothing else changes... all we're
> doing is
> > adding another option for our members.
> >
> > Here is what I'm thinking for the incorporation:
> >
> > For the three officers:
> >
> > President - Responsible for turning in New Membership
Information
> to
> > ASA4WDC, attend ASA4WDC meetings. (I nominate DougB if he's
> interested)
> > Treasurer - Responsible for collecting money from members and
> paying
> > ASA4WDC and Az State. (I nominate Jon Loveless, if he's
interested,
> since he
> > already does alot with stickers, etc...)
> > Webmaster - Responsible for maintaining the website and e-mail
> list.
> >
> > How to become a New Member: 1. Join the AzVJC 2. Go on a run
> with the
> > AzVJC (with at least one member of the AzVJC Inc present) 3. Pay
> Dues.
> > That's it.
> >
> > How to become a Non Member: 1. Don't pay your dues.
> >
> > Meetings and Elections: None. If a club officer steps down,
> he/she
> > chooses the replacement.
> >
> > Dues: I am thinking since Az State has decided that clubs are
> only
> > allowed 2 runs per month that we just include an individual
permit
> in the
> > cost of the dues for the year. This way members of the AzVJC Inc
> are double
> > covered and they won't have to remember to get one every year
(like
> me).
> > Also included in the cost of dues would be ASA4WDC membership.
> Because of
> > the incorporation, we'll likely have to start paying for the
> webspace (which
> > we currently get for free) which is $21.25/month. We could also
> include
> > things like paying to get rid of advertisements on Yahoo Groups,
> extra
> > stickers to hand out at events, flyers, banners, etc... I
estimate
> roughly
> > $40/year which is right in line with most clubs.
> >
> > The benefits are: 1. The AzVJC will be covered by the ASA4WDC
> million
> > dollar insurance. 2. ASA4WDC and united will get more money to
> fight the
> > eco-nazis. 3. The AzVJC will finally be recognized as the largest
> club at
> > the ASA4WDC Jamboree :) 4. I'm sure there's more but my mind is
> drawing a
> > blank.
> >
> > The downside is: 1. Paying Dues. 2. There are no other
> downsides, other
> > than paying dues, nothing changes, and you only have to pay dues
if
> you want
> > to (you just remain a member of AzVJC but not AzVJC Inc).
> >
> > Does this make sense? I'll post a poll to find out how many
may
> be
> > interested. The initial start up costs will depend on the number
> of people
> > starting the AzVJC Inc as incorporation can initially be
expensive
> ($500?)
> > ALSO, if anyone has been through the incorporation process
before,
> we could
> > use your assistance.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > - Mike
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.


44414 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:10pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs


Bob,

Exactly.

Joe

> -----Original Message-----
> From: rlpeckii [mailto:rlpii@q...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:55 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Mike,
> I think what Joe is saying is that it is OK to create a new
> club, just
> don't "affiliate" it with the AZVJC. If some of the members want to
> get together and set up the "Organized Arizona Jeep Club" or the
> "Official Arizona Jeep Club" that is OK. Post something on the
> AZVJC's site that it exists, and folks can join or not join as they
> see fit. Under those circumstances, hell, I might even join :-)
>
> What most of us (I hope) don't want, is to F**k up a good thing like
> the AZVJC. You, the orginal 6 (?) and all the rest of the active
> members have done a fantastic job of creating probably the largest
> (member wise) group of four wheelers in the nation and
> probably in the
> world. There is nothing stopping current members from starting a new
> and organized club with dues, officers, and a charter etc. And I
> don't think there is anything stopping a AZVJCer from joining and
> affiliating with both clubs?
>
> This thread is starting to get ugly, the next thing will be
> attorneys.
> lawsuits and counter lawsuits. Can't we all just get along? :-)
>
> Let's go wheelin or something?
>
> Bob
> 74 CJ-5
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...> wrote:
> > And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non entity) has
> legal
> > right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it, the
> AzVJC never
> > incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't own
> anything
> > (including the copyrighted webpages).
> >
> > Just something to think about.
> >
> > BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want to be
> a part
> > of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change unless
> YOU make
> > the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
> >
> > - Mike
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> > To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@y...
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> > Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a good
> idea for
> > those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the
> AZVJC....
> > webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
> everyone's
> > authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> > separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
> more than
> any
> > other club currently is.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


44415 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:11pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs


ROTFL...

Drats! I should have created a yahoogroups name of AzVJC_Classic!
<grin>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:02 PM
> To: Ross Skinner; AZVJC (E-mail)
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> I prefer AZVJC Classic.
>
> Chris
>
> > From: Ross Skinner <rskinner@s...>
> > Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:36:20 -0700
> > To: "AZVJC (E-mail)" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> > Whirlwind in a teapot.....thats all this is as usual. Mike, start a
> > club...fine, have fun.. leave this thing alone, the only
> folks I believe
> > have a say are the ones that founded it...even though you
> do alot for
> > it...they really have "ownership" of this. Using what they
> did to create
> > another AZVJC does NOT pass the smell test. Maybe you
> should talk them into
> > starting a club...AZOJF...AZ Old Jeep Farts..or some such.
> > Ross..(nearly a founder )
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> > To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> > And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
> entity) has legal
> > right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
> the AzVJC never
> > incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it
> can't own anything
> > (including the copyrighted webpages).
> >
> > Just something to think about.
> >
> > BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't
> want to be a part
> > of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
> unless YOU make
> > the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
> >
> > - Mike
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> > To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> > Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is
> a good idea for
> > those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to
> the AZVJC....
> > webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make
> without everyone's
> > authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> > separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
> more than any
> > other club currently is.
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


44416 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:15pm
Subject: Re: Doug Ballard is silent...


I'm with you Joe.

Chris

> From: "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...>
> Reply-To: <arizonajeep@c...>
> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:55:08 -0700
> To: "Azvjc \(E-mail\)" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [az_vjc] Doug Ballard is silent...
>
> I see that Doug is posting, yet he remains silent on the subject of
> organization... Many posts exist in which he has stated his
> anti-organization thoughts... I hope the lure of a presidency hasn't caused
> him to change his mind.
>
> Oh well... I have created another Arizona Virtual Jeep Club group on Yahoo
> Groups which has the name AzVJC@yahoogroups.com
> If, for some reason, there ever comes a day when this group organizes
> without at least 50% of the actual membership count voting for organization,
> I will activate the group and those who wish to continue to be virtual can
> do so.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Joe West
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


44417 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:16pm
Subject: RE: Doug Ballard is silent...


<grin>

I live for these moments... Doug is a smart man; for him to remain silent
for this long on the subject is unlike him (although he actually could be in
a meeting or something, not sitting at home SICK like I am today) I'm glad
that this debate came up on a day when I can participate; I do so love a
good debate.

Joe

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ross Skinner [mailto:rskinner@s...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:57 PM
> To: AZVJC (E-mail)
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Doug Ballard is silent...
>
>
> I like the way you act buddy! The NSA needs that kind of initiative..
> He may be forming an exploratory committee to consider a run ;-)
> Ross
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:55 PM
> To: Azvjc (E-mail)
> Subject: [az_vjc] Doug Ballard is silent...
>
>
> I see that Doug is posting, yet he remains silent on the subject of
> organization... Many posts exist in which he has stated his
> anti-organization thoughts... I hope the lure of a presidency
> hasn't caused
> him to change his mind.
>
> Oh well... I have created another Arizona Virtual Jeep Club
> group on Yahoo
> Groups which has the name AzVJC@yahoogroups.com
> If, for some reason, there ever comes a day when this group organizes
> without at least 50% of the actual membership count voting
> for organization,
> I will activate the group and those who wish to continue to
> be virtual can
> do so.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Joe West
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


44418 From: Jayke Thorpe <jeepboy_3@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:16pm
Subject: RE: Organized Clubs


What would change....Besides paying dues.
--- "David R. W. Withers" <dr_ww@h...> wrote:
> Looks like my stickers are coming off!!!
> Leave it alone. If I want to give money to dues,
> I'll give it to the
> ASA4wdc.
> let me know when this happens so I may remove myself
> form the e-mail
> list
>
> Sincerely
> David R. W. Withers
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:29 AM
> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: [az_vjc] Organized Clubs
>
>
> To all of those that already belong to an organized
> club, you may now
> delete this message (or continue reading if you're
> curious).
>
> For everyone here that is interested:
>
> I talked to Sandee McCullen at the cleanup in
> January and have been
> trying to figure out a way to bring this up to the
> group. Well it looks
> like this may be the perfect time with all that has
> happened in the past
> day or so.
>
> We can make the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club an
> incorporated club and
> become a member club of the Arizona State
> Association of 4WD Clubs
> WITHOUT organizing (at least not any more than we
> already have). Sandee
> said that we need three "officers" and bylaws, we
> don't have to have
> membership requirements, elections, "official" club
> runs. All the
> bylaws have to say is who the officers are, how new
> members join, and
> when we have meetings (even if it is never).
>
> Here is the way it would work. As it is now, anyone
> can join the AzVJC
> via the website and post messages to the group, this
> WILL NOT change.
> What changes is, once someone has joined the AzVJC
> and gone on one run
> (so we can verify that they live in Arizona and HAVE
> a JEEP) then they
> can join the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated
> (AzVJC Inc). All
> they have to do is pay their dues for the year. If
> they want to drop out
> of the AzVJC Inc then they just don't pay the dues;
> it doesn't mean that
> they will be dropped from the website or mailing
> list. Nothing else
> changes... all we're doing is adding another option
> for our members.
>
> Here is what I'm thinking for the incorporation:
>
> For the three officers:
>
> President - Responsible for turning in New
> Membership Information to
> ASA4WDC, attend ASA4WDC meetings. (I nominate DougB
> if he's interested)
> Treasurer - Responsible for collecting money from
> members and paying
> ASA4WDC and Az State. (I nominate Jon Loveless, if
> he's interested,
> since he already does alot with stickers, etc...)
> Webmaster - Responsible for maintaining the website
> and e-mail list.
>
> How to become a New Member: 1. Join the AzVJC 2. Go
> on a run with the
> AzVJC (with at least one member of the AzVJC Inc
> present) 3. Pay Dues.
> That's it.
>
> How to become a Non Member: 1. Don't pay your dues.
>
> Meetings and Elections: None. If a club officer
> steps down, he/she
> chooses the replacement.
>
> Dues: I am thinking since Az State has decided that
> clubs are only
> allowed 2 runs per month that we just include an
> individual permit in
> the cost of the dues for the year. This way members
> of the AzVJC Inc
> are double covered and they won't have to remember
> to get one every year
> (like me). Also included in the cost of dues would
> be ASA4WDC
> membership. Because of the incorporation, we'll
> likely have to start
> paying for the webspace (which we currently get for
> free) which is
> $21.25/month. We could also include things like
> paying to get rid of
> advertisements on Yahoo Groups, extra stickers to
> hand out at events,
> flyers, banners, etc... I estimate roughly $40/year
> which is right in
> line with most clubs.
>
> The benefits are: 1. The AzVJC will be covered by
> the ASA4WDC million
> dollar insurance. 2. ASA4WDC and united will get
> more money to fight the
> eco-nazis. 3. The AzVJC will finally be recognized
> as the largest club
> at the ASA4WDC Jamboree :) 4. I'm sure there's more
> but my mind is
> drawing a blank.
>
> The downside is: 1. Paying Dues. 2. There are no
> other downsides, other
> than paying dues, nothing changes, and you only have
> to pay dues if you
> want to (you just remain a member of AzVJC but not
> AzVJC Inc).
>
> Does this make sense? I'll post a poll to find out
> how many may be
> interested. The initial start up costs will depend
> on the number of
> people starting the AzVJC Inc as incorporation can
> initially be
> expensive ($500?) ALSO, if anyone has been through
> the incorporation
> process before, we could use your assistance.
>
> Thanks,
>
> - Mike
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
>
>


=====
S. Jayke Thorpe

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion!
http://greetings.yahoo.com


44419 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:17pm
Subject: RE: Doug Ballard is silent...


What? Wheeling? We don't do that here in the AZVJTFC (Arizona Virtual Jeep
Touchy Feely Club). We just argue about how to ruin a good thing.

Chris

> From: Ross Skinner <rskinner@s...>
> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:57:09 -0700
> To: "AZVJC (E-mail)" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Doug Ballard is silent...
>
> I like the way you act buddy! The NSA needs that kind of initiative..
> He may be forming an exploratory committee to consider a run ;-)
> Ross
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:55 PM
> To: Azvjc (E-mail)
> Subject: [az_vjc] Doug Ballard is silent...
>
>
> I see that Doug is posting, yet he remains silent on the subject of
> organization... Many posts exist in which he has stated his
> anti-organization thoughts... I hope the lure of a presidency hasn't caused
> him to change his mind.
>
> Oh well... I have created another Arizona Virtual Jeep Club group on Yahoo
> Groups which has the name AzVJC@yahoogroups.com
> If, for some reason, there ever comes a day when this group organizes
> without at least 50% of the actual membership count voting for organization,
> I will activate the group and those who wish to continue to be virtual can
> do so.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Joe West
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


44420 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:18pm
Subject: Re: Arizonadrivelines.com daily testimonials


SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM


> From: "Oscar Trevino" <gloeco@c...>
> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:26:35 -0800
> To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [az_vjc] Arizonadrivelines.com daily testimonials
>
>
>
> A) Oscar
>
> I really like the drivelines. They have solved my vibration problems. I have
> included some sticker Joe Neil (435-703-3347) made of your domain name for
> us and we are sending some to you.
>
> Thanks Again
> Casey Lofthouse
> Washington UT
>
> B) Oscar,
>
> Just a note to let you know what a great job you guys did! I received my
> double cardon shaft and yoke for my 86 CJ and the vibrations are GONE!
>
> Great craftsmanship and prices, too.
>
> Regards,
>
> Andy Fitzpatrick
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 2/19/2002
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


44421 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:20pm
Subject: RE: Organized Clubs


Rob,

I can't speak for everyone else, but the reason I'm against this is because
anytime you make rules, and put people in positions of authority over other
people... or a group of people, things change.

I honestly believe that the AZVJC is PERFECT... in the most absolute sense
of the word. If something is perfect, by definition, it doesn't need to
change.

If someone can show me how our club isn't perfect as it is, I'll be happy to
reconsider my position.

Kind Regards,

Joe West


44422 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:20pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs


Its never too late!

> From: "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...>
> Reply-To: <arizonajeep@c...>
> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:11:59 -0700
> To: "'Chris Krieg'" <rv6a@m...>, "'Ross Skinner'" <rskinner@s...>,
> "'AZVJC \(E-mail\)'" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
> ROTFL...
>
> Drats! I should have created a yahoogroups name of AzVJC_Classic!
> <grin>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:02 PM
>> To: Ross Skinner; AZVJC (E-mail)
>> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>>
>>
>> I prefer AZVJC Classic.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>> From: Ross Skinner <rskinner@s...>
>>> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:36:20 -0700
>>> To: "AZVJC (E-mail)" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
>>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>>>
>>> Whirlwind in a teapot.....thats all this is as usual. Mike, start a
>>> club...fine, have fun.. leave this thing alone, the only
>> folks I believe
>>> have a say are the ones that founded it...even though you
>> do alot for
>>> it...they really have "ownership" of this. Using what they
>> did to create
>>> another AZVJC does NOT pass the smell test. Maybe you
>> should talk them into
>>> starting a club...AZOJF...AZ Old Jeep Farts..or some such.
>>> Ross..(nearly a founder )
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
>>> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
>>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>>>
>>>
>>> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
>> entity) has legal
>>> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
>> the AzVJC never
>>> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it
>> can't own anything
>>> (including the copyrighted webpages).
>>>
>>> Just something to think about.
>>>
>>> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't
>> want to be a part
>>> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
>> unless YOU make
>>> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
>>>
>>> - Mike
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
>>> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>>>
>>>
>>> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is
>> a good idea for
>>> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to
>> the AZVJC....
>>> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make
>> without everyone's
>>> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
>>> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
>> more than any
>>> other club currently is.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


44423 From: Brian Hill <brian@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:29pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs


I didnt threaten the group David. Just replied to Joe who said the Real  club couldnt use the name AzVJC. By the way, I have no interest in leading. I get enough of that at work.



-----Original Message-----
From: David R. W. Withers [mailto:dr_ww@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:25 PM
To: 'Brian Hill'; arizonajeep@cox.net; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs



to threaten a group is the worst way to get people to follow you.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:19 PM
To: arizonajeep@cox.net; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs

I just checked the copyright office and did not find the AzVJC logo copyrighted.

----- Original Message -----


From: Joe W

To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:01 PM

Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs



Hi Mike,

Splitting the group into two clubs will ultimately lead to the demise of one
or the other. I see absolutely no reason to become a "real" club or have a
mirror "real" club at all. Should we become real so we can be regulated?
Should we become real so we can have officers or pay dues? I'm sorry, but
the benefits of being virtual far outweigh the benefits of being real. If
you'd care to elaborate on the benefits you see to being real; I'd be more
than happy to have a nice debate with you.

As far as taking the AzVJC name... ABSOLUTELY NOT! If you want to create a
separate group, you create it with a completely different name (unless of
course, EVERYONE in the club agrees to allowing our name to be used by this
new offshoot group).
Your suggestion of having people join the Arizona LowRangers is a good one.
If anyone craves reality, this will be a good option for them and will
ensure that any "real" club remains absolutely separate.

You've done a good job with our webpage Mike... you've invested more
personal time than perhaps any other member of our club; for this, I thank
you. However, I believe your attempts to "organize" our group are misguided
and not at all in the interests of the majority of the people in our club.
This is yet another case of; if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

The AZVJC isn't broke, and it doesn't need to be changed. I look forward to
our continued discussion...

Joe

>




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.





44424 From: Brian Hill <brian@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:30pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs


Hee hee!

-----Original Message-----
From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs

And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non entity) has legal
right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it, the AzVJC never
incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't own anything
(including the copyrighted webpages).

Just something to think about.

BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want to be a part
of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change unless YOU make
the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.

- Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs


Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a good idea for
those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without everyone's
authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
separate, and must not be liked to our current website any more than any
other club currently is.



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


44425 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:22pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs


Yeah, I can see it, It'll be like those star-bellied Sneetches that Dr.
Suess wrote about. The dues paying members will look down upon those who
have no stars upon thars.

Chris

> From: "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...>

> The spirit of this club will change Mike...
>
> Joe
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
>> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>>
>>
>> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
>> entity) has legal
>> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
>> the AzVJC never
>> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't
>> own anything
>> (including the copyrighted webpages).
>>
>> Just something to think about.
>>
>> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want
>> to be a part
>> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
>> unless YOU make
>> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
>>
>> - Mike
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
>> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>>
>>
>> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a
>> good idea for
>> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
>> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
>> everyone's
>> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
>> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
>> more than any
>> other club currently is.
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


44426 From: jeepin_in_az <jeepin_in_az@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:23pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs


O, O, O, I got another award that can be handed out at the BBQ, "Joe
with the least amount of words in one of his e-mails"!!!!


Mike Baney


--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> Bob,
>
> Exactly.
>
> Joe
>


44427 From: Robert McNeeley <robert.mcneeley@p...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:26pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs


There is nothing like having people take something that you created and
developed and were kind enough to give access to and make it their own. Yes
this is my club too because I am a member. However I did not create it,
develop it, and let people join it. I am not saying that becoming an
organized group is a good or bad thing... What ever happens...happens. I
will still be part of the vjc. I just think that everyone...yes...EVERYONE
needs to step back and listen to what the orig 6 want.
We all belong to this club BUT they were the ones who started it... and gave
it to us. To the original 6, or what's left of them, What do you want???
What do you think??? To those who were after the orig 6... shut up and
listen... Everyone has made good comments...some have just acted butt
hurt... So orig 6 what do you want?

anyone have $.98 change?
Robert aka Fat Bob


From: "jeepthang87yj" <jeep_thang@h...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:53 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs


> Oh come on as if there isn't enough clubs that want your money
> already, and have little requirements you need to stay in the club,
> and besides it's really stupid to pay money just to watch people talk
> on the net.
> Not me I'll vote against it.
>
> Sincerely: JEEP THANG
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > Mike,
> >
> > Organization is in the air again.... and I suspect that once again,
> it shall
> > be shot down completely.
> >
> > There are enough organized clubs to join here in the valley if
> people want
> > to join. The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer, and
> we
> > already have a Webmaster who is doing a fantastic job <grin>.
> >
> > The only way that this group will become an organized entity is if
> you can
> > get every single member to vote for organization... and I hate to
> tell you
> > this; but I'll never vote for it...put it to a vote and watch how
> badly it
> > gets shot down.
> >
> > If people want to belong to an organized group, go off and start
> your own
> > organized group. Call it the Arizona Jeep Club or the Arizona
> Axlebreakers
> > or whatever... but I suggest that people not get their hopes up to
> high for
> > the AZVJC to EVER become organized.
> >
> > Ta-Ta till next year's organizational pleas start anew...
> >
> >
> > Joe West
> >
> > Long live Anarchy!
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:29 AM
> > To: 'az_vjc@y...'
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> > To all of those that already belong to an organized club, you may
> now
> > delete this message (or continue reading if you're curious).
> >
> > For everyone here that is interested:
> >
> > I talked to Sandee McCullen at the cleanup in January and have
> been trying
> > to figure out a way to bring this up to the group. Well it looks
> like this
> > may be the perfect time with all that has happened in the past day
> or so.
> >
> > We can make the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club an incorporated club
> and become
> > a member club of the Arizona State Association of 4WD Clubs WITHOUT
> > organizing (at least not any more than we already have). Sandee
> said that we
> > need three "officers" and bylaws, we don't have to have membership
> > requirements, elections, "official" club runs. All the bylaws have
> to say
> > is who the officers are, how new members join, and when we have
> meetings
> > (even if it is never).
> >
> > Here is the way it would work. As it is now, anyone can join the
> AzVJC
> > via the website and post messages to the group, this WILL NOT
> change. What
> > changes is, once someone has joined the AzVJC and gone on one run
> (so we can
> > verify that they live in Arizona and HAVE a JEEP) then they can
> join the
> > Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated (AzVJC Inc). All they have
> to do is
> > pay their dues for the year. If they want to drop out of the AzVJC
> Inc then
> > they just don't pay the dues; it doesn't mean that they will be
> dropped from
> > the website or mailing list. Nothing else changes... all we're
> doing is
> > adding another option for our members.
> >
> > Here is what I'm thinking for the incorporation:
> >
> > For the three officers:
> >
> > President - Responsible for turning in New Membership Information
> to
> > ASA4WDC, attend ASA4WDC meetings. (I nominate DougB if he's
> interested)
> > Treasurer - Responsible for collecting money from members and
> paying
> > ASA4WDC and Az State. (I nominate Jon Loveless, if he's interested,
> since he
> > already does alot with stickers, etc...)
> > Webmaster - Responsible for maintaining the website and e-mail
> list.
> >
> > How to become a New Member: 1. Join the AzVJC 2. Go on a run
> with the
> > AzVJC (with at least one member of the AzVJC Inc present) 3. Pay
> Dues.
> > That's it.
> >
> > How to become a Non Member: 1. Don't pay your dues.
> >
> > Meetings and Elections: None. If a club officer steps down,
> he/she
> > chooses the replacement.
> >
> > Dues: I am thinking since Az State has decided that clubs are
> only
> > allowed 2 runs per month that we just include an individual permit
> in the
> > cost of the dues for the year. This way members of the AzVJC Inc
> are double
> > covered and they won't have to remember to get one every year (like
> me).
> > Also included in the cost of dues would be ASA4WDC membership.
> Because of
> > the incorporation, we'll likely have to start paying for the
> webspace (which
> > we currently get for free) which is $21.25/month. We could also
> include
> > things like paying to get rid of advertisements on Yahoo Groups,
> extra
> > stickers to hand out at events, flyers, banners, etc... I estimate
> roughly
> > $40/year which is right in line with most clubs.
> >
> > The benefits are: 1. The AzVJC will be covered by the ASA4WDC
> million
> > dollar insurance. 2. ASA4WDC and united will get more money to
> fight the
> > eco-nazis. 3. The AzVJC will finally be recognized as the largest
> club at
> > the ASA4WDC Jamboree :) 4. I'm sure there's more but my mind is
> drawing a
> > blank.
> >
> > The downside is: 1. Paying Dues. 2. There are no other
> downsides, other
> > than paying dues, nothing changes, and you only have to pay dues if
> you want
> > to (you just remain a member of AzVJC but not AzVJC Inc).
> >
> > Does this make sense? I'll post a poll to find out how many may
> be
> > interested. The initial start up costs will depend on the number
> of people
> > starting the AzVJC Inc as incorporation can initially be expensive
> ($500?)
> > ALSO, if anyone has been through the incorporation process before,
> we could
> > use your assistance.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > - Mike
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


44428 From: David R. W. Withers <dr_ww@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:26pm
Subject: RE: RE: Organized Clubs


I learned this the hard way

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:20 PM
To: 'jeepfanatic97'
Cc: Azvjc (E-mail)
Subject: [az_vjc] RE: Organized Clubs


Rob,

I can't speak for everyone else, but the reason I'm against this is
because anytime you make rules, and put people in positions of authority
over other people... or a group of people, things change.

I honestly believe that the AZVJC is PERFECT... in the most absolute
sense of the word. If something is perfect, by definition, it doesn't
need to change.

If someone can show me how our club isn't perfect as it is, I'll be
happy to reconsider my position.

Kind Regards,

Joe West





Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


44429 From: Brian Hill <brian@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:34pm
Subject: RE: RE: Organzied Clubs


Oh... Thanks a lot for the info. I didn't say I was going to apply. I just
said Joe don't own it! Let's go easy on the name calling there big guy!

-----Original Message-----
From: Baja Fleg [mailto:fleigle@h...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:59 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] RE: Organzied Clubs

Brian your digging yourself a hole here and being very immature. Just to
make sure you understand how copyrights really work and what you can and can
not do I have taken the pleasure of digging up an old article just for you.
I'm only including the first two paragraphs of it because its very long and
wordy but I think you will get the point. You will see that even though the
AZVJC is not copyrighted with the copyright office they are still owned by a
person and you are not able to claim anything from AZVJC as your own. You
would need to get the endorsement from the webmaster and every member of the
AZVJC to be legal. Good Luck!! If you would like the rest of the article
shoot me an email, I would be happy to send it to you.

Michael

-----------------------------------------------
1.) The Webmaster's Copyright

So you'd like to use some content on someone else's site or would
like to know what your rights as a web developer are? Then great,
because that's exactly what this article is about. To start out, your
images, photographs, and text are copyrighted the moment you create
them without any need of registering them or including a copyright
symbol on them. However, registering them will help in the case
that you'd ever need to take anyone to court.

"Fair Use"

Fair use is placing another's work such as text out of an article
on one of your web pages. You can usually get away with 2-3 sentences
quoting them and making sure to give them credit. Also, never mislead
the reader to think that the author of that article is endorsing you
in anyway. You should still always try to get the author's permission
for something like this, although it isn't usually required.


Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
I just checked the copyright office and did not find the AzVJClogo
copyrighted.

__________________________________________________ _______________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


44430 From: David R. W. Withers <dr_ww@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:27pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs


That explains it, management always wants change. Gives you guys something to do.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:30 PM
To: David R. W. Withers; arizonajeep@cox.net; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs


I didnt threaten the group David. Just replied to Joe who said the Real  club couldnt use the name AzVJC. By the way, I have no interest in leading. I get enough of that at work.



-----Original Message-----
From: David R. W. Withers [mailto:dr_ww@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:25 PM
To: 'Brian Hill'; arizonajeep@cox.net; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs



to threaten a group is the worst way to get people to follow you.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:19 PM
To: arizonajeep@cox.net; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs

I just checked the copyright office and did not find the AzVJC logo copyrighted.

----- Original Message -----


From: Joe W

To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:01 PM

Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs



Hi Mike,

Splitting the group into two clubs will ultimately lead to the demise of one
or the other. I see absolutely no reason to become a "real" club or have a
mirror "real" club at all. Should we become real so we can be regulated?
Should we become real so we can have officers or pay dues? I'm sorry, but
the benefits of being virtual far outweigh the benefits of being real. If
you'd care to elaborate on the benefits you see to being real; I'd be more
than happy to have a nice debate with you.

As far as taking the AzVJC name... ABSOLUTELY NOT! If you want to create a
separate group, you create it with a completely different name (unless of
course, EVERYONE in the club agrees to allowing our name to be used by this
new offshoot group).
Your suggestion of having people join the Arizona LowRangers is a good one.
If anyone craves reality, this will be a good option for them and will
ensure that any "real" club remains absolutely separate.

You've done a good job with our webpage Mike... you've invested more
personal time than perhaps any other member of our club; for this, I thank
you. However, I believe your attempts to "organize" our group are misguided
and not at all in the interests of the majority of the people in our club.
This is yet another case of; if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

The AZVJC isn't broke, and it doesn't need to be changed. I look forward to
our continued discussion...

Joe

>




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44431 From: Brian Hill <brian@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:35pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs


Promise?

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:09 PM
To: 'Chatfield, Mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs

Mike,

I'm not talking legal anything... I'm against ANYONE who chooses to divide
(shadow... whatever word you choose to use) the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club.
Unless you get a simple majority (1 vote greater than half the current
membership count) voting for this shadow club... I will believe that it was
the wrong thing to do. If you do manage to get a simple majority for this
new "real" club, I will believe that it was the right thing for the club to
do... but the wrong thing for me... at which point I will silently go away.

I'm against it Mike, because I am all too familiar with the divisiveness of
"real" groups... Although you have put a great deal of time into our club
webpage, it does not authorize you to take our name and give it to another
group. Even the original six members voting for it cannot authorize this
change... there must be a majority vote for this to be a fair and honest
change.

The spirit of this club will change Mike... and there is nothing you, or
anyone else, will be able to do to stop it. We don't need rules, or bylaws,
or a board of directors and incorporation... You are pressing for change
which will ultimately redefine our group and I don't want this to happen.

Joe

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non
> entity) has legal
> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it,
> the AzVJC never
> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't
> own anything
> (including the copyrighted webpages).
>
> Just something to think about.
>
> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want
> to be a part
> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change
> unless YOU make
> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
>
> - Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a
> good idea for
> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
> everyone's
> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any
> more than any
> other club currently is.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/






Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


44432 From: Brian Hill <brian@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:38pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs


Good Bob,

I gotta go get the kids but I wish I could stay... See you later.

~B~

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert McNeeley [mailto:robert.mcneeley@p...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:26 PM
To: 'Bill Mish'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs

There is nothing like having people take something that you created and
developed and were kind enough to give access to and make it their own. Yes
this is my club too because I am a member. However I did not create it,
develop it, and let people join it. I am not saying that becoming an
organized group is a good or bad thing... What ever happens...happens. I
will still be part of the vjc. I just think that everyone...yes...EVERYONE
needs to step back and listen to what the orig 6 want.
We all belong to this club BUT they were the ones who started it... and gave
it to us. To the original 6, or what's left of them, What do you want???
What do you think??? To those who were after the orig 6... shut up and
listen... Everyone has made good comments...some have just acted butt
hurt... So orig 6 what do you want?

anyone have $.98 change?
Robert aka Fat Bob


From: "jeepthang87yj" <jeep_thang@h...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:53 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs


> Oh come on as if there isn't enough clubs that want your money
> already, and have little requirements you need to stay in the club,
> and besides it's really stupid to pay money just to watch people talk
> on the net.
> Not me I'll vote against it.
>
> Sincerely: JEEP THANG
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > Mike,
> >
> > Organization is in the air again.... and I suspect that once again,
> it shall
> > be shot down completely.
> >
> > There are enough organized clubs to join here in the valley if
> people want
> > to join. The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer, and
> we
> > already have a Webmaster who is doing a fantastic job <grin>.
> >
> > The only way that this group will become an organized entity is if
> you can
> > get every single member to vote for organization... and I hate to
> tell you
> > this; but I'll never vote for it...put it to a vote and watch how
> badly it
> > gets shot down.
> >
> > If people want to belong to an organized group, go off and start
> your own
> > organized group. Call it the Arizona Jeep Club or the Arizona
> Axlebreakers
> > or whatever... but I suggest that people not get their hopes up to
> high for
> > the AZVJC to EVER become organized.
> >
> > Ta-Ta till next year's organizational pleas start anew...
> >
> >
> > Joe West
> >
> > Long live Anarchy!
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:29 AM
> > To: 'az_vjc@y...'
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> > To all of those that already belong to an organized club, you may
> now
> > delete this message (or continue reading if you're curious).
> >
> > For everyone here that is interested:
> >
> > I talked to Sandee McCullen at the cleanup in January and have
> been trying
> > to figure out a way to bring this up to the group. Well it looks
> like this
> > may be the perfect time with all that has happened in the past day
> or so.
> >
> > We can make the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club an incorporated club
> and become
> > a member club of the Arizona State Association of 4WD Clubs WITHOUT
> > organizing (at least not any more than we already have). Sandee
> said that we
> > need three "officers" and bylaws, we don't have to have membership
> > requirements, elections, "official" club runs. All the bylaws have
> to say
> > is who the officers are, how new members join, and when we have
> meetings
> > (even if it is never).
> >
> > Here is the way it would work. As it is now, anyone can join the
> AzVJC
> > via the website and post messages to the group, this WILL NOT
> change. What
> > changes is, once someone has joined the AzVJC and gone on one run
> (so we can
> > verify that they live in Arizona and HAVE a JEEP) then they can
> join the
> > Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated (AzVJC Inc). All they have
> to do is
> > pay their dues for the year. If they want to drop out of the AzVJC
> Inc then
> > they just don't pay the dues; it doesn't mean that they will be
> dropped from
> > the website or mailing list. Nothing else changes... all we're
> doing is
> > adding another option for our members.
> >
> > Here is what I'm thinking for the incorporation:
> >
> > For the three officers:
> >
> > President - Responsible for turning in New Membership Information
> to
> > ASA4WDC, attend ASA4WDC meetings. (I nominate DougB if he's
> interested)
> > Treasurer - Responsible for collecting money from members and
> paying
> > ASA4WDC and Az State. (I nominate Jon Loveless, if he's interested,
> since he
> > already does alot with stickers, etc...)
> > Webmaster - Responsible for maintaining the website and e-mail
> list.
> >
> > How to become a New Member: 1. Join the AzVJC 2. Go on a run
> with the
> > AzVJC (with at least one member of the AzVJC Inc present) 3. Pay
> Dues.
> > That's it.
> >
> > How to become a Non Member: 1. Don't pay your dues.
> >
> > Meetings and Elections: None. If a club officer steps down,
> he/she
> > chooses the replacement.
> >
> > Dues: I am thinking since Az State has decided that clubs are
> only
> > allowed 2 runs per month that we just include an individual permit
> in the
> > cost of the dues for the year. This way members of the AzVJC Inc
> are double
> > covered and they won't have to remember to get one every year (like
> me).
> > Also included in the cost of dues would be ASA4WDC membership.
> Because of
> > the incorporation, we'll likely have to start paying for the
> webspace (which
> > we currently get for free) which is $21.25/month. We could also
> include
> > things like paying to get rid of advertisements on Yahoo Groups,
> extra
> > stickers to hand out at events, flyers, banners, etc... I estimate
> roughly
> > $40/year which is right in line with most clubs.
> >
> > The benefits are: 1. The AzVJC will be covered by the ASA4WDC
> million
> > dollar insurance. 2. ASA4WDC and united will get more money to
> fight the
> > eco-nazis. 3. The AzVJC will finally be recognized as the largest
> club at
> > the ASA4WDC Jamboree :) 4. I'm sure there's more but my mind is
> drawing a
> > blank.
> >
> > The downside is: 1. Paying Dues. 2. There are no other
> downsides, other
> > than paying dues, nothing changes, and you only have to pay dues if
> you want
> > to (you just remain a member of AzVJC but not AzVJC Inc).
> >
> > Does this make sense? I'll post a poll to find out how many may
> be
> > interested. The initial start up costs will depend on the number
> of people
> > starting the AzVJC Inc as incorporation can initially be expensive
> ($500?)
> > ALSO, if anyone has been through the incorporation process before,
> we could
> > use your assistance.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > - Mike
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


44433 From: jeepfanatic97 <itsajeepthing@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:30pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs


Well my pole vote just got changed to a No.......There is nothing
wrong with the way our club is set up right now.....We Wheel, Help
members and take care of our trails...Don't see how that could get
any better by being INC. MHO

3 post in one day I think i just lost my lurker status :-)

Rob Brooks


--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> Rob,
>
> I can't speak for everyone else, but the reason I'm against this is
because
> anytime you make rules, and put people in positions of authority
over other
> people... or a group of people, things change.
>
> I honestly believe that the AZVJC is PERFECT... in the most
absolute sense
> of the word. If something is perfect, by definition, it doesn't
need to
> change.
>
> If someone can show me how our club isn't perfect as it is, I'll be
happy to
> reconsider my position.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Joe West


44434 From: Brian Hill <brian@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:38pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs


Ha! Thats really a good one David ;->



~B~



-----Original Message-----
From: David R. W. Withers [mailto:dr_ww@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:27 PM
To: 'Brian Hill'; arizonajeep@cox.net; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs



That explains it, management always wants change. Gives you guys something to do.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 3:30 PM
To: David R. W. Withers; arizonajeep@cox.net; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs

I didnt threaten the group David. Just replied to Joe who said the Real  club couldnt use the name AzVJC. By the way, I have no interest in leading. I get enough of that at work.



-----Original Message-----
From: David R. W. Withers [mailto:dr_ww@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:25 PM
To: 'Brian Hill'; arizonajeep@cox.net; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs



to threaten a group is the worst way to get people to follow you.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:19 PM
To: arizonajeep@cox.net; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs

I just checked the copyright office and did not find the AzVJC logo copyrighted.

----- Original Message -----


From: Joe W



To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:01 PM

Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs



Hi Mike,

Splitting the group into two clubs will ultimately lead to the demise of one
or the other. I see absolutely no reason to become a "real" club or have a
mirror "real" club at all. Should we become real so we can be regulated?
Should we become real so we can have officers or pay dues? I'm sorry, but
the benefits of being virtual far outweigh the benefits of being real. If
you'd care to elaborate on the benefits you see to being real; I'd be more
than happy to have a nice debate with you.

As far as taking the AzVJC name... ABSOLUTELY NOT! If you want to create a
separate group, you create it with a completely different name (unless of
course, EVERYONE in the club agrees to allowing our name to be used by this
new offshoot group).
Your suggestion of having people join the Arizona LowRangers is a good one.
If anyone craves reality, this will be a good option for them and will
ensure that any "real" club remains absolutely separate.

You've done a good job with our webpage Mike... you've invested more
personal time than perhaps any other member of our club; for this, I thank
you. However, I believe your attempts to "organize" our group are misguided
and not at all in the interests of the majority of the people in our club.
This is yet another case of; if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

The AZVJC isn't broke, and it doesn't need to be changed. I look forward to
our continued discussion...

Joe

>




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.