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44385 From: Oscar Trevino <gloeco@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:26pm
Subject: Arizonadrivelines.com daily testimonials
A) Oscar
I really like the drivelines. They have solved my vibration problems. I have
included some sticker Joe Neil (435-703-3347) made of your domain name for
us and we are sending some to you.
Thanks Again
Casey Lofthouse
Washington UT
B) Oscar,
Just a note to let you know what a great job you guys did! I received my
double cardon shaft and yoke for my 86 CJ and the vibrations are GONE!
Great craftsmanship and prices, too.
Regards,
Andy Fitzpatrick
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44386 From: Brian Hill <brian@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:29pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
Funny Bob
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert McNeeley
To: 'Brian Hill' ; David R. W. Withers
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:21 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Like they say...
The most effective way to cope with change is to help create it.
L. W. Lynett
Robert aka Fat Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
To: David R. W. Withers
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
David,
Already read it before joining. You think I didn't. Ha! You make a lot of assumptions for such a bright individual.
In life everything changes and evolves. This will happen to AzVJC too. Sorry you don't like it, but you don't have to. This won't hurt you a bit.
Don't look now but the response to the poll is about 50/50 with 16 percent undecided.
If you do it the way you've always done it, then you'll get what you've always got.
I like change... Change is good.
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'Brian Hill'
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
read the history of the club, and maybe you'll understand.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:48 PM
To: David R. W. Withers
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
No I'm not. I'm kinda new around here. Thought I found myself a home though. Not sure yet why I want to be a member of that organization yet, but I'll figure it out eventually. Newbies get a break on this don't they? You must be a big time member or you wouldn't be asking. Good for you! You should be proud.
I guess if the ASA4WDC changes it's mind next year then so be it. I'm sure that they'll miss both the revenue and ability to influence what we do at AzVJC inc. Let's cross that bridge when we come to it.
If you're not investing in a paid membership in an incorporated AzVJC club then you really don't have anything to complain about do you? What's the beef?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'Brian Hill'
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:29 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
The question is, why aren't you a ASA4WDC member already????
probably not
What happens next year when the ASAWDC says, we changed our minds, you need to have meetings and by-laws?
What then?!!!!
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:26 PM
To: David R. W. Withers; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Hi David,
I thought you were going away for awhile... What happened?
How about not telling me how to spend my money... If I want to spend it on AzVJC for a membership club I should be able to. I want to contribute to this club in that way.
If you don't want to participate then don't. Continue to be a member in the form you are now. Still sounds like everyone is welcome. Even You
Do you think it devalues your membership because there are those who are willing to contribute monetarily to the club and those who aren't?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
If you want to help out, give your money to those organized clubs.
-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@azvjc.org]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:53 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Joe,
I think you missed the point here. The idea is not to change the AzVJC
as it is, but in essence to create a 2nd club, a shadow club. The AzVJC
will remain unchanged, people will still come and go as they please,
there will still be no dues, no elections, no rules, just as it is now.
However, members of the AzVJC will have the OPTION to join the 2nd club
and the only requirement that is different is that they will need to pay
dues; in addition, the other "requirements" (ie. live in Az, own a Jeep)
will simply be enforced.
I agree that the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club does not need anything else.
However, offering the OPTION of joining a "Real" club that is a shadow
of the Az "Virtual" JC, I can only see this as a good thing for both the
individuals and our sport in general. Once again to be part of the
AzVJC, nothing changes. To join the shadow club, you simply need to pay
dues.
I thought alot about the name for the 2nd group. And even though the V
stands for "Virtual," I really think it should be the same name. Any
other name wouldn't fit right "Arizona Real Jeep Club", "Arizona Jeep
Club" and besides, then I'd have to create a whole new website
(www.AzRJC.org or www.AzJC.org).
Again this isn't an effort to ORGANIZE the AzVJC, it is an effort to
provide the membership of the AzVJC another OPTION. And I disagree that
the entire AzVJC membership would have to approve of such a thing, those
that don't approve or don't want to don't have to join the shadow club.
All we need is enough interest to see it through and enough initial
members to split the costs of incorporation.
I could even add a field to the Member Profiles called "Affiliated Club"
in which members could put whatever "real" club they belong to. I
suspect that alot of AzVJC members are members of the Az Lo-Rangers as
well.
The bottom line here is that I'm trying to make it easy for members of
the AzVJC to join and maintain membership of an "organized club." The
idea is to provide a webpage where they can pay their dues via PayPal
and be done with it. No meetings to attend no check to write and mail,
just an online payment. If the AzVJC shadow club doesn't interest
anyone, would the membership of the Az LowRangers perhaps be willing to
let our members join "On-Line" and pay their dues via PayPal? Since the
Az-Low Rangers rules are very similiar to the AzVJC's anyhow.
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer...
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44387 From: <flatfendr@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:32am
Subject: Re: ZJ parts
According to the dealer the bushings are shot. They replaced the lower front ones about 4 months ago. Nothing was said then about warranty issues. By the way , can you just replace the bushings?
44388 From: Chatfield, Mike <Mike@A...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:34pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non entity) has legal
right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it, the AzVJC never
incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't own anything
(including the copyrighted webpages).
Just something to think about.
BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want to be a part
of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change unless YOU make
the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
- Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a good idea for
those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without everyone's
authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
separate, and must not be liked to our current website any more than any
other club currently is.
44389 From: paparoach85251 <lespaparoach@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:34pm
Subject: Axle swap wrenching party -Sun 9am
Hey everyone! Just wanted to let everyone know that we will be
swapping my new Dana 44 into my TJ this Sunday at 9 am at Chris
Krieg's house. Several of you had mentioned that you would be willing
to help out so here's your chance. Especially needed is someone with
lots of brake experience as we will be swapping the drums off my old
Dana 35 on to the new axle. I can provide refreshments for everyone.
Send me an email if you would like to help out and I can send you
directions to Chris' house in Chandler.
Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Les R
44390 From: rick_logan2002 <rlogan@d...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:35pm
Subject: Flagstaff 4 x4
Anybody have an opionion on this company
44391 From: David R. W. Withers <dr_ww@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:35pm
Subject: RE: ZJ parts
most warranty work has a warranty itself. I would check on it.
David
-----Original Message-----
From: flatfendr@aol.com [mailto:flatfendr@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:32 PM
To: macunasprint@earthlink.net; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ZJ parts
According to the dealer the bushings are shot. They replaced the lower front ones about 4 months ago. Nothing was said then about warranty issues. By the way , can you just replace the bushings?
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
44392 From: <rlpii@q...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:39pm
Subject: Re: "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II
Neal,
Man would I love to go camping this weekend. Unfortunately I'm booked all day Saturday. I hope that I didn't give the impression that all rock crawlers were bad. That is definitely NOT the case! This was just my way of describing this one idiot. His vehicle, like the trucks, had no sign of any affiliation with any club, they just drove and acted without regard to our sport and our environment.
We had in our group two AZVJC's (Nick Smith and Jason LaLiberty) who have nicely built rigs, and while not extreme rock crawlers, they were able to go places the rest of of couldn't (or elected not to) go. I really don't know what the answer is to these renegade off-roaders? Maybe we could solicit the help of the AZVGC? :-)
Again, I got no bone to pick with rock crawlers, they are exciting to watch and they do some amazing things with those vehicles. Have fun camping this weekend, and maybe when you get back we'll have some new ideas on our challenges.
Bob
74 CJ-5
Neal Han**** wrote:
Bob, there are many of us that are extreme rock crawlers that know the issues and fight for our rights. I personally invite you and anyone else to come out to the old Jamboree site this weekend to have dinner and a camp out and some intelligent conversations about 4 wheeling and where its going in this state. :)
Neal Han****, 74cj5 rock crawler
rlpeckii wrote:
Well, I've read most of the recent posts regarding destroying trails
and the need to belong to an organized club to help keep the trails
open. I just can't keep it in any longer . . . .:-)
I have been wheelin for over 40 years and for the past 4 years here in
Arizona. We have some of the best, and most accessable, trails I have
ever seen, and I have wheeled in California, Alaska, Colorado, Utah,
Nevada, and of course in Arizona.
Recently I attended an AZVJC run out to Box Canyon and Martinez
Canyon. For me, this was the best wheelin yet. I found the members
to be friendly, helpful, knowledgeable, and very concerned about the
environment. I was proud to be wheelin with these folks . . .
Unfortunately, there were other folks out on this trail too. One in
particular was a well built "crawler" (looked like a modified Blazer
without the body), who took it upon himself to go off the trails and
run over bushes and trees to get by the slower vehicles. We also
encountered a group of trucks that were drinking heavily (the drivers
where actucally the ones that were doing the drinking) and pretty much
tore up their vehicles and the trail. In addition, we encountered a
lone pick-up truck that couldn't even make it up Box Canyon without
being strapped up.
I guess my point is that it is not the true "Jeepers" that we have
worry about, it is these sudo Baja Racers and Rock Crawlers that don't
read these posts (that would be assuming that they could read), they
don't even know that lands are being closed, much less they probably
don't care. Just look at what has happened to Sycamore Creek.
Everytime I venture out there, I am amazed that it is still open.
I have not seen any evidence that the members of AZVJC ever knowingly
damage the trails or the environment. While a few may be slightly
outspoken (grin). They do a lot for our sport/hobby and I only wish I
had more time and resources to contribute.
I had a few extra cents, so there they are . . .
Keep on wheelin,
Bob
74 CJ-5
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44393 From: scramzilla <allvol@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:41pm
Subject: The good, Bad and the Ulgy.....
I've read most of the posts on the subject of Rock stacking, by-pass
building and organized clubs ect....ect.... And I have kept and open
mind about it. Most of the people in this group have done the same. My
last message will address the people that I believe are the minority
few.
First let me give the primmer for this post. If you are a member of
any organization that promotes public land use and helps keep it open
to the general public.....Attend regular "clean up" events in your
area.....Or attend or speak out at land issue meetings that try to
prevent groups from closing more and more of our public land, the rest
of this message does NOT apply to you....I repeat, does NOT apply to
you.
************************************************** ********************
************************************************** ********************
************************************************** *********
Delete this message now if you fall into one or all of the categories
that I listed above.
************************************************** ********************
************************************************** ********************
************************************************** *********
After reading the VJC over the last few days I can see that the Yahoo
portion of the VJC is no more than a message board turned into a chat
group. There is nothing wrong with that....just stating a fact. This
was even alluded to by several posting members. Now the other main
web page is another story.....I'm talking about the dot Org. page. It
is set up like another club pages with Trips, members rides, events,
yada yada yada. It is very interesting to me that the VJC tries very
hard not to become a club but is a club in spite of itself. It's like
the members of this group want to be a group but for one reason or
another, fail to go that extra step....(As I stated many times, I
don't care one way or the other)....just making a point.
I have heard from many posters that trumpet the club membership
numbers.....anywhere from a 1000 to 1400+. Now that is all well and
good but big numbers do NOT equate to a Jeeper behind every poster. I
would be willing to bet that there are members that do not even
believe in the recreational 4-wheelin' Yep! I bet there are a few
eco-Nazis in this group watching and listing what is discussed....If I
were one of their Ilk, that's what I'd do. Also, there are many people
that read this board solely for it's entertainment value.
Entertainment in watching people smack around each other and watching
people post messages about 4-wheelin' that do not have a clue of which
they speak.
Now I would very much like to address the people that do NOT fall into
ANY of the categories that I listed above. I'll call these people:
Jeepers marooned on the Island of misfit toys. You know the Christmas
story. It's a place for toys that did not fit the "norm" as far as
toys go. There was a "Charlie in the box".........and Water Pistol
that shot jelly.... Oh, and don't forget the Elephant with the pink
spots.......I think you get the picture. They are in a world of there
on. These wheelin' misfits don't give a flying monkeys *** about club
dues, ASA or ANY organization that asks for money. Oh they have
money. And have nooooooooo problem spending tons of it on their rig!
They think that it's a by-gawd free country and they can do whatever
they want, whenever they want, and nobody by-gawd better try stop-um.
Then you have the "I've been here longer that you" group of people
that will whip up a story about wheelin' a certain place for X-number
of years and that's just the way it's gonna be. It was free 30 years
ago so it's gonna be free now!......Most of the time they blame
everything on the younger generation.
Which brings me to the younger generation. There are many youths
driving Quads now that were not around years ago and these things
cause MAJOR damage to land a vegetation. A careless quad rider can do
more damage in a week than a parking lot full of trail riding Jeeps
can do in a year!
Last but not least is probably most dangerous group of wheelers out
there. It's the "no opinion whatsoever" group. They just go about
there
business, not a care in the world until it effects them directly. A
large % of Dune people are this way but last year they got their wake
up call. Yep! They were fat dumb and happy until the Eco-Nazis found a
weed that is on the endangered species list growing in the
Dunes.......then BAM!!!!!!!.....Half the Dunes were closed in the
blink of an eye.
I'll summarize my point now by saying: EVERY MEMBER IN THIS GROUP CAN
COME UP WITH $25.00 AND JOIN THE ASA! IF YOU ARE TO FREAKIN' CHEAP TO
SPEND $25.00 A YEAR TO HELP KEEP THE LAND THAT YOU SAY IS YOURS
......I CONSIDER YOU A PARASITE ON THE BACK OF EVERY WHEELER IN THIS
STATE THAT LIVES UP TO THAT MINIMUM STANDARD. Now before you start
sending me hate mail, make sure that you re-read the first section
again just in case you missed it.
Clay Forrester
44394 From: Ross Skinner <rskinner@s...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:36pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Whirlwind in a teapot.....thats all this is as usual. Mike, start a
club...fine, have fun.. leave this thing alone, the only folks I believe
have a say are the ones that founded it...even though you do alot for
it...they really have "ownership" of this. Using what they did to create
another AZVJC does NOT pass the smell test. Maybe you should talk them into
starting a club...AZOJF...AZ Old Jeep Farts..or some such.
Ross..(nearly a founder )
-----Original Message-----
From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non entity) has legal
right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it, the AzVJC never
incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't own anything
(including the copyrighted webpages).
Just something to think about.
BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want to be a part
of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change unless YOU make
the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
- Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a good idea for
those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without everyone's
authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
separate, and must not be liked to our current website any more than any
other club currently is.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44395 From: <flatfendr@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:46am
Subject: Re: ZJ parts
Can you believe the policy is in the glove box. When we pick the Jeep up this afternoon I will do some research.
Thanks for the input,
Sam
44396 From: Joe Kearney <joe@j...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:54pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
I have asked Doug that exact same question.
I would like to hear what he and the other 5 originals say.
Joe Kearney
Joe@J...
-----Original Message-----
From: Ross Skinner [mailto:rskinner@s...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:36 PM
To: AZVJC (E-mail)
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Whirlwind in a teapot.....thats all this is as usual. Mike, start a
club...fine, have fun.. leave this thing alone, the only folks I believe
have a say are the ones that founded it...even though you do alot for
it...they really have "ownership" of this. Using what they did to create
another AZVJC does NOT pass the smell test. Maybe you should talk them
into
starting a club...AZOJF...AZ Old Jeep Farts..or some such.
Ross..(nearly a founder )
-----Original Message-----
From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non entity) has legal
right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it, the AzVJC
never
incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't own
anything
(including the copyrighted webpages).
Just something to think about.
BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want to be a
part
of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change unless YOU
make
the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
- Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a good idea
for
those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without everyone's
authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
separate, and must not be liked to our current website any more than any
other club currently is.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44397 From: Eric Marble <emarble3@p...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:02pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
Just a quick question. how many members carry a blm permit anyways? Even a
club permit doesn't cover when your out wheeling alone with friends. From
what I've heard they are going to start ticketing this year. Two weeks ago I
ran into some rangers out in the Florence area, first time other then jambo
or Arca.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ross Skinner" <rskinner@s...>
To: "AZVJC (E-mail)" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:36 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> Whirlwind in a teapot.....thats all this is as usual. Mike, start a
> club...fine, have fun.. leave this thing alone, the only folks I believe
> have a say are the ones that founded it...even though you do alot for
> it...they really have "ownership" of this. Using what they did to create
> another AZVJC does NOT pass the smell test. Maybe you should talk them
into
> starting a club...AZOJF...AZ Old Jeep Farts..or some such.
> Ross..(nearly a founder )
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non entity) has legal
> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it, the AzVJC
never
> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't own anything
> (including the copyrighted webpages).
>
> Just something to think about.
>
> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want to be a part
> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change unless YOU make
> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
>
> - Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a good idea
for
> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without everyone's
> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any more than any
> other club currently is.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44398 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:55pm
Subject: Doug Ballard is silent...
I see that Doug is posting, yet he remains silent on the subject of
organization... Many posts exist in which he has stated his
anti-organization thoughts... I hope the lure of a presidency hasn't caused
him to change his mind.
Oh well... I have created another Arizona Virtual Jeep Club group on Yahoo
Groups which has the name AzVJC@yahoogroups.com
If, for some reason, there ever comes a day when this group organizes
without at least 50% of the actual membership count voting for organization,
I will activate the group and those who wish to continue to be virtual can
do so.
Kind Regards,
Joe West
44399 From: Neal Han**** <azredrocker@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:55pm
Subject: Re: Flagstaff work
Try Scott Dana at American Spring INC. He's a good friend and should be able to help.
rick_logan2002 wrote:
Does anybody know of another shop in Flagstaff and not Flagstaff 4x4
I will never take my jeep to them again I will go to 4 wheel supply
in Phoenix
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44400 From: rlpeckii <rlpii@q...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:55pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs
Mike,
I think what Joe is saying is that it is OK to create a new club, just
don't "affiliate" it with the AZVJC. If some of the members want to
get together and set up the "Organized Arizona Jeep Club" or the
"Official Arizona Jeep Club" that is OK. Post something on the
AZVJC's site that it exists, and folks can join or not join as they
see fit. Under those circumstances, hell, I might even join :-)
What most of us (I hope) don't want, is to F**k up a good thing like
the AZVJC. You, the orginal 6 (?) and all the rest of the active
members have done a fantastic job of creating probably the largest
(member wise) group of four wheelers in the nation and probably in the
world. There is nothing stopping current members from starting a new
and organized club with dues, officers, and a charter etc. And I
don't think there is anything stopping a AZVJCer from joining and
affiliating with both clubs?
This thread is starting to get ugly, the next thing will be attorneys.
lawsuits and counter lawsuits. Can't we all just get along? :-)
Let's go wheelin or something?
Bob
74 CJ-5
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...> wrote:
> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non entity) has
legal
> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it, the
AzVJC never
> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't own
anything
> (including the copyrighted webpages).
>
> Just something to think about.
>
> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want to be
a part
> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change unless
YOU make
> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
>
> - Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@y...
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a good
idea for
> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the
AZVJC....
> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
everyone's
> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any more than
any
> other club currently is.
44401 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:57pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
Typical corporate mentality. "I don't like it the way it is so I think it should be changed. Who cares what it was created for?"
Again, I say BAH!
Chris K
From: "Brian Hill"
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:17:48 -0700
To: "David R. W. Withers"
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
David,
Already read it before joining. You think I didn't. Ha! You make a lot of assumptions for such a bright individual.
In life everything changes and evolves. This will happen to AzVJC too. Sorry you don't like it, but you don't have to. This won't hurt you a bit.
Don't look now but the response to the poll is about 50/50 with 16 percent undecided.
If you do it the way you've always done it, then you'll get what you've always got.
I like change... Change is good.
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'Brian Hill'
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
read the history of the club, and maybe you'll understand.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:48 PM
To: David R. W. Withers
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
No I'm not. I'm kinda new around here. Thought I found myself a home though. Not sure yet why I want to be a member of that organization yet, but I'll figure it out eventually. Newbies get a break on this don't they? You must be a big time member or you wouldn't be asking. Good for you! You should be proud.
I guess if the ASA4WDC changes it's mind next year then so be it. I'm sure that they'll miss both the revenue and ability to influence what we do at AzVJC inc. Let's cross that bridge when we come to it.
If you're not investing in a paid membership in an incorporated AzVJC club then you really don't have anything to complain about do you? What's the beef?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'Brian Hill'
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:29 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
The question is, why aren't you a ASA4WDC member already????
probably not
What happens next year when the ASAWDC says, we changed our minds, you need to have meetings and by-laws?
What then?!!!!
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:26 PM
To: David R. W. Withers; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Hi David,
I thought you were going away for awhile... What happened?
How about not telling me how to spend my money... If I want to spend it on AzVJC for a membership club I should be able to. I want to contribute to this club in that way.
If you don't want to participate then don't. Continue to be a member in the form you are now. Still sounds like everyone is welcome. Even You
Do you think it devalues your membership because there are those who are willing to contribute monetarily to the club and those who aren't?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
If you want to help out, give your money to those organized clubs.
-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@azvjc.org]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:53 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Joe,
I think you missed the point here. The idea is not to change the AzVJC
as it is, but in essence to create a 2nd club, a shadow club. The AzVJC
will remain unchanged, people will still come and go as they please,
there will still be no dues, no elections, no rules, just as it is now.
However, members of the AzVJC will have the OPTION to join the 2nd club
and the only requirement that is different is that they will need to pay
dues; in addition, the other "requirements" (ie. live in Az, own a Jeep)
will simply be enforced.
I agree that the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club does not need anything else.
However, offering the OPTION of joining a "Real" club that is a shadow
of the Az "Virtual" JC, I can only see this as a good thing for both the
individuals and our sport in general. Once again to be part of the
AzVJC, nothing changes. To join the shadow club, you simply need to pay
dues.
I thought alot about the name for the 2nd group. And even though the V
stands for "Virtual," I really think it should be the same name. Any
other name wouldn't fit right "Arizona Real Jeep Club", "Arizona Jeep
Club" and besides, then I'd have to create a whole new website
(www.AzRJC.org or www.AzJC.org ).
Again this isn't an effort to ORGANIZE the AzVJC, it is an effort to
provide the membership of the AzVJC another OPTION. And I disagree that
the entire AzVJC membership would have to approve of such a thing, those
that don't approve or don't want to don't have to join the shadow club.
All we need is enough interest to see it through and enough initial
members to split the costs of incorporation.
I could even add a field to the Member Profiles called "Affiliated Club"
in which members could put whatever "real" club they belong to. I
suspect that alot of AzVJC members are members of the Az Lo-Rangers as
well.
The bottom line here is that I'm trying to make it easy for members of
the AzVJC to join and maintain membership of an "organized club." The
idea is to provide a webpage where they can pay their dues via PayPal
and be done with it. No meetings to attend no check to write and mail,
just an online payment. If the AzVJC shadow club doesn't interest
anyone, would the membership of the Az LowRangers perhaps be willing to
let our members join "On-Line" and pay their dues via PayPal? Since the
Az-Low Rangers rules are very similiar to the AzVJC's anyhow.
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" wrote:
> The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer...
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44402 From: Baja Fleg <fleigle@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:58pm
Subject: RE: Organzied Clubs
Brian your digging yourself a hole here and being very immature. Just to
make sure you understand how copyrights really work and what you can and can
not do I have taken the pleasure of digging up an old article just for you.
I'm only including the first two paragraphs of it because its very long and
wordy but I think you will get the point. You will see that even though the
AZVJC is not copyrighted with the copyright office they are still owned by a
person and you are not able to claim anything from AZVJC as your own. You
would need to get the endorsement from the webmaster and every member of the
AZVJC to be legal. Good Luck!! If you would like the rest of the article
shoot me an email, I would be happy to send it to you.
Michael
-----------------------------------------------
1.) The Webmaster's Copyright
So you'd like to use some content on someone else's site or would
like to know what your rights as a web developer are? Then great,
because that's exactly what this article is about. To start out, your
images, photographs, and text are copyrighted the moment you create
them without any need of registering them or including a copyright
symbol on them. However, registering them will help in the case
that you'd ever need to take anyone to court.
"Fair Use"
Fair use is placing another's work such as text out of an article
on one of your web pages. You can usually get away with 2-3 sentences
quoting them and making sure to give them credit. Also, never mislead
the reader to think that the author of that article is endorsing you
in anyway. You should still always try to get the author's permission
for something like this, although it isn't usually required.
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
I just checked the copyright office and did not find the AzVJClogo
copyrighted.
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44403 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:00pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
Crap, This is all starting to sound like a hostile corporate takeover.
LEAVE THE AZVJC ALONE!
Chris K
> From: "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...>
> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:34:11 -0700
> To: "'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non entity) has legal
> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it, the AzVJC never
> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't own anything
> (including the copyrighted webpages).
>
> Just something to think about.
>
> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want to be a part
> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change unless YOU make
> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
>
> - Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a good idea for
> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without everyone's
> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any more than any
> other club currently is.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44404 From: Bill Mish <yldkat55@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:07pm
Subject: Re: Re: Thanks (more)
Nah, we just don't like you.
Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B
----- Original Message -----
From: "David R. W. Withers" <dr_ww@h...>
To: "'Jayke Thorpe'" <jeepboy_3@y...>; "'Ross Skinner'"
<rskinner@s...>; "'AZVJC (E-mail)'" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:03 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Thanks (more)
> What happened to all the people that jumped down my throat (flamed me)
> for wanting to change/add a few things to the club?!!!
> Have you already joined another one?
> David Withers
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jayke Thorpe [mailto:jeepboy_3@y...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 11:54 AM
> To: Ross Skinner; AZVJC (E-mail)
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Thanks (more)
>
>
> I think the AZVJC is great!
> --- Ross Skinner <rskinner@s...> wrote:
> > After hearing some of the LIMITATIONS being placed
> > upon the clubs by the
> > State and I am sure the Feds are not far behind...I
> > am alarmed...who in the
> > hell rolled over and let themselves be boxed in like
> > that. You are not
> > using state lands for profit...where is there an
> > ordinance allowing them
> > that kind of control?
> >
> > If you don't think this is not a methodical effort
> > to get your access
> > ultimately removed or severely limited ...lets say
> > one run a quarter..I have
> > a bridge to sell you.
> >
> > Yes, clubs can be fun and can focus activism to
> > better influence
> > bureaucrats, but, it is looking like the usual
> > closed cliques (you know,
> > care more, know more, better, smarter and so on) are
> > forming and are doing
> > things that may not be in the best interest of our
> > use of our lands. Again,
> > I am not sure of this but it seems to be a
> > consistent outcome of groups like
> > this.
> >
> > Now it is our responsibility as independents to do
> > things and say things
> > that represent a broader reality of our desires then
> > what some small
> > cliquish clubs think.
> >
> > This has been an interesting discussion.
> >
> > Ross
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Clay Forrester [mailto:allvol@c...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:07 AM
> > To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; akamofoe
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Thanks (more)
> >
> >
> > What will end up happing is that your land (private
> > property) would be the
> > last to go.....that's all. The rest of the public
> > State land and the rest of
> > the country would lose theirs. I for one do not want
> > to go wheelin' in the
> > same area over and over and over................Do
> > you? If we lose the
> > clubs, we lose it all
> >
> >
> > Clay
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "akamofoe" <akamoefo@h...>
> > To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 10:17 PM
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Thanks (more)
> >
> >
> > > I've been wheel'n for more than 20 years now and
> > have never been a
> > > member of a club that collects dues. It's always
> > been a good group of
> > > friends, their friends, etc.. Don't get me wrong,
> > I agree that those
> > > clubs (or organizations) that are collecting money
> > (I mean dues) are
> > > using them for good purposes, keeping our lands
> > open.
> > > But I had an Idea. Why don't we get together and
> > start a non-profit
> > > organization, collect donations (tax deductible),
> > contact a couple of
> > > the Big Three Dealers, some Magazines, etc.. With
> > all those
> > > contributions we could go out and purchase our own
> > land and open our
> > > own OHV area. Select a couple of area groups to
> > head a panel to
> > > oversee OUR LANDS.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
44405 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:01pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
I prefer AZVJC Classic.
Chris
> From: Ross Skinner <rskinner@s...>
> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:36:20 -0700
> To: "AZVJC (E-mail)" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
> Whirlwind in a teapot.....thats all this is as usual. Mike, start a
> club...fine, have fun.. leave this thing alone, the only folks I believe
> have a say are the ones that founded it...even though you do alot for
> it...they really have "ownership" of this. Using what they did to create
> another AZVJC does NOT pass the smell test. Maybe you should talk them into
> starting a club...AZOJF...AZ Old Jeep Farts..or some such.
> Ross..(nearly a founder )
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non entity) has legal
> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it, the AzVJC never
> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't own anything
> (including the copyrighted webpages).
>
> Just something to think about.
>
> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want to be a part
> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change unless YOU make
> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
>
> - Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a good idea for
> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without everyone's
> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any more than any
> other club currently is.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44406 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:03pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
Again, typical corporate mentality
From: "Brian Hill"
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:19:21 -0700
To: arizonajeep@cox.net, "'az_jeeper_mike'" , az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
I just checked the copyright office and did not find the AzVJC logo copyrighted.
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe W
To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:01 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Hi Mike,
Splitting the group into two clubs will ultimately lead to the demise of one
or the other. I see absolutely no reason to become a "real" club or have a
mirror "real" club at all. Should we become real so we can be regulated?
Should we become real so we can have officers or pay dues? I'm sorry, but
the benefits of being virtual far outweigh the benefits of being real. If
you'd care to elaborate on the benefits you see to being real; I'd be more
than happy to have a nice debate with you.
As far as taking the AzVJC name... ABSOLUTELY NOT! If you want to create a
separate group, you create it with a completely different name (unless of
course, EVERYONE in the club agrees to allowing our name to be used by this
new offshoot group).
Your suggestion of having people join the Arizona LowRangers is a good one.
If anyone craves reality, this will be a good option for them and will
ensure that any "real" club remains absolutely separate.
You've done a good job with our webpage Mike... you've invested more
personal time than perhaps any other member of our club; for this, I thank
you. However, I believe your attempts to "organize" our group are misguided
and not at all in the interests of the majority of the people in our club.
This is yet another case of; if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
The AZVJC isn't broke, and it doesn't need to be changed. I look forward to
our continued discussion...
Joe
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service .
44407 From: Mark Mesalam <m_mesalam@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:05pm
Subject: RE: New poll for az_vjc
I sent this 20 minutes ago, before the explanation. Dump this...
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Mesalam [mailto:m_mesalam@y...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:27 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] New poll for az_vjc
Before I would be able to decide I would need to know what would be the
benefit of Incorporating.
-----Original Message-----
From: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:az_vjc@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:33 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] New poll for az_vjc
Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
az_vjc group:
Would you be interested in Joining an
Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated?
o Yes
o Maybe
o No
To vote, please visit the following web page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/az_vjc/polls
Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.
Thanks!
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44408 From: Bill Mish <yldkat55@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:10pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
You get out of it whet you put into it.
Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B
----- Original Message -----
From: "jeepthang87yj" <jeep_thang@h...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:53 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> Oh come on as if there isn't enough clubs that want your money
> already, and have little requirements you need to stay in the club,
> and besides it's really stupid to pay money just to watch people talk
> on the net.
> Not me I'll vote against it.
>
> Sincerely: JEEP THANG
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > Mike,
> >
> > Organization is in the air again.... and I suspect that once again,
> it shall
> > be shot down completely.
> >
> > There are enough organized clubs to join here in the valley if
> people want
> > to join. The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer, and
> we
> > already have a Webmaster who is doing a fantastic job <grin>.
> >
> > The only way that this group will become an organized entity is if
> you can
> > get every single member to vote for organization... and I hate to
> tell you
> > this; but I'll never vote for it...put it to a vote and watch how
> badly it
> > gets shot down.
> >
> > If people want to belong to an organized group, go off and start
> your own
> > organized group. Call it the Arizona Jeep Club or the Arizona
> Axlebreakers
> > or whatever... but I suggest that people not get their hopes up to
> high for
> > the AZVJC to EVER become organized.
> >
> > Ta-Ta till next year's organizational pleas start anew...
> >
> >
> > Joe West
> >
> > Long live Anarchy!
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:29 AM
> > To: 'az_vjc@y...'
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> > To all of those that already belong to an organized club, you may
> now
> > delete this message (or continue reading if you're curious).
> >
> > For everyone here that is interested:
> >
> > I talked to Sandee McCullen at the cleanup in January and have
> been trying
> > to figure out a way to bring this up to the group. Well it looks
> like this
> > may be the perfect time with all that has happened in the past day
> or so.
> >
> > We can make the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club an incorporated club
> and become
> > a member club of the Arizona State Association of 4WD Clubs WITHOUT
> > organizing (at least not any more than we already have). Sandee
> said that we
> > need three "officers" and bylaws, we don't have to have membership
> > requirements, elections, "official" club runs. All the bylaws have
> to say
> > is who the officers are, how new members join, and when we have
> meetings
> > (even if it is never).
> >
> > Here is the way it would work. As it is now, anyone can join the
> AzVJC
> > via the website and post messages to the group, this WILL NOT
> change. What
> > changes is, once someone has joined the AzVJC and gone on one run
> (so we can
> > verify that they live in Arizona and HAVE a JEEP) then they can
> join the
> > Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated (AzVJC Inc). All they have
> to do is
> > pay their dues for the year. If they want to drop out of the AzVJC
> Inc then
> > they just don't pay the dues; it doesn't mean that they will be
> dropped from
> > the website or mailing list. Nothing else changes... all we're
> doing is
> > adding another option for our members.
> >
> > Here is what I'm thinking for the incorporation:
> >
> > For the three officers:
> >
> > President - Responsible for turning in New Membership Information
> to
> > ASA4WDC, attend ASA4WDC meetings. (I nominate DougB if he's
> interested)
> > Treasurer - Responsible for collecting money from members and
> paying
> > ASA4WDC and Az State. (I nominate Jon Loveless, if he's interested,
> since he
> > already does alot with stickers, etc...)
> > Webmaster - Responsible for maintaining the website and e-mail
> list.
> >
> > How to become a New Member: 1. Join the AzVJC 2. Go on a run
> with the
> > AzVJC (with at least one member of the AzVJC Inc present) 3. Pay
> Dues.
> > That's it.
> >
> > How to become a Non Member: 1. Don't pay your dues.
> >
> > Meetings and Elections: None. If a club officer steps down,
> he/she
> > chooses the replacement.
> >
> > Dues: I am thinking since Az State has decided that clubs are
> only
> > allowed 2 runs per month that we just include an individual permit
> in the
> > cost of the dues for the year. This way members of the AzVJC Inc
> are double
> > covered and they won't have to remember to get one every year (like
> me).
> > Also included in the cost of dues would be ASA4WDC membership.
> Because of
> > the incorporation, we'll likely have to start paying for the
> webspace (which
> > we currently get for free) which is $21.25/month. We could also
> include
> > things like paying to get rid of advertisements on Yahoo Groups,
> extra
> > stickers to hand out at events, flyers, banners, etc... I estimate
> roughly
> > $40/year which is right in line with most clubs.
> >
> > The benefits are: 1. The AzVJC will be covered by the ASA4WDC
> million
> > dollar insurance. 2. ASA4WDC and united will get more money to
> fight the
> > eco-nazis. 3. The AzVJC will finally be recognized as the largest
> club at
> > the ASA4WDC Jamboree :) 4. I'm sure there's more but my mind is
> drawing a
> > blank.
> >
> > The downside is: 1. Paying Dues. 2. There are no other
> downsides, other
> > than paying dues, nothing changes, and you only have to pay dues if
> you want
> > to (you just remain a member of AzVJC but not AzVJC Inc).
> >
> > Does this make sense? I'll post a poll to find out how many may
> be
> > interested. The initial start up costs will depend on the number
> of people
> > starting the AzVJC Inc as incorporation can initially be expensive
> ($500?)
> > ALSO, if anyone has been through the incorporation process before,
> we could
> > use your assistance.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > - Mike
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44409 From: Ross Skinner <rskinner@s...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:57pm
Subject: RE: Doug Ballard is silent...
I like the way you act buddy! The NSA needs that kind of initiative..
He may be forming an exploratory committee to consider a run ;-)
Ross
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:55 PM
To: Azvjc (E-mail)
Subject: [az_vjc] Doug Ballard is silent...
I see that Doug is posting, yet he remains silent on the subject of
organization... Many posts exist in which he has stated his
anti-organization thoughts... I hope the lure of a presidency hasn't caused
him to change his mind.
Oh well... I have created another Arizona Virtual Jeep Club group on Yahoo
Groups which has the name AzVJC@yahoogroups.com
If, for some reason, there ever comes a day when this group organizes
without at least 50% of the actual membership count voting for organization,
I will activate the group and those who wish to continue to be virtual can
do so.
Kind Regards,
Joe West
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44385 From: Oscar Trevino <gloeco@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:26pm
Subject: Arizonadrivelines.com daily testimonials
A) Oscar
I really like the drivelines. They have solved my vibration problems. I have
included some sticker Joe Neil (435-703-3347) made of your domain name for
us and we are sending some to you.
Thanks Again
Casey Lofthouse
Washington UT
B) Oscar,
Just a note to let you know what a great job you guys did! I received my
double cardon shaft and yoke for my 86 CJ and the vibrations are GONE!
Great craftsmanship and prices, too.
Regards,
Andy Fitzpatrick
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 2/19/2002
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ADVERTISEMENT
44386 From: Brian Hill <brian@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:29pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
Funny Bob
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert McNeeley
To: 'Brian Hill' ; David R. W. Withers
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:21 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Like they say...
The most effective way to cope with change is to help create it.
L. W. Lynett
Robert aka Fat Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
To: David R. W. Withers
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
David,
Already read it before joining. You think I didn't. Ha! You make a lot of assumptions for such a bright individual.
In life everything changes and evolves. This will happen to AzVJC too. Sorry you don't like it, but you don't have to. This won't hurt you a bit.
Don't look now but the response to the poll is about 50/50 with 16 percent undecided.
If you do it the way you've always done it, then you'll get what you've always got.
I like change... Change is good.
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'Brian Hill'
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
read the history of the club, and maybe you'll understand.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:48 PM
To: David R. W. Withers
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
No I'm not. I'm kinda new around here. Thought I found myself a home though. Not sure yet why I want to be a member of that organization yet, but I'll figure it out eventually. Newbies get a break on this don't they? You must be a big time member or you wouldn't be asking. Good for you! You should be proud.
I guess if the ASA4WDC changes it's mind next year then so be it. I'm sure that they'll miss both the revenue and ability to influence what we do at AzVJC inc. Let's cross that bridge when we come to it.
If you're not investing in a paid membership in an incorporated AzVJC club then you really don't have anything to complain about do you? What's the beef?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'Brian Hill'
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:29 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
The question is, why aren't you a ASA4WDC member already????
probably not
What happens next year when the ASAWDC says, we changed our minds, you need to have meetings and by-laws?
What then?!!!!
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:26 PM
To: David R. W. Withers; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Hi David,
I thought you were going away for awhile... What happened?
How about not telling me how to spend my money... If I want to spend it on AzVJC for a membership club I should be able to. I want to contribute to this club in that way.
If you don't want to participate then don't. Continue to be a member in the form you are now. Still sounds like everyone is welcome. Even You
Do you think it devalues your membership because there are those who are willing to contribute monetarily to the club and those who aren't?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
If you want to help out, give your money to those organized clubs.
-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@azvjc.org]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:53 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Joe,
I think you missed the point here. The idea is not to change the AzVJC
as it is, but in essence to create a 2nd club, a shadow club. The AzVJC
will remain unchanged, people will still come and go as they please,
there will still be no dues, no elections, no rules, just as it is now.
However, members of the AzVJC will have the OPTION to join the 2nd club
and the only requirement that is different is that they will need to pay
dues; in addition, the other "requirements" (ie. live in Az, own a Jeep)
will simply be enforced.
I agree that the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club does not need anything else.
However, offering the OPTION of joining a "Real" club that is a shadow
of the Az "Virtual" JC, I can only see this as a good thing for both the
individuals and our sport in general. Once again to be part of the
AzVJC, nothing changes. To join the shadow club, you simply need to pay
dues.
I thought alot about the name for the 2nd group. And even though the V
stands for "Virtual," I really think it should be the same name. Any
other name wouldn't fit right "Arizona Real Jeep Club", "Arizona Jeep
Club" and besides, then I'd have to create a whole new website
(www.AzRJC.org or www.AzJC.org).
Again this isn't an effort to ORGANIZE the AzVJC, it is an effort to
provide the membership of the AzVJC another OPTION. And I disagree that
the entire AzVJC membership would have to approve of such a thing, those
that don't approve or don't want to don't have to join the shadow club.
All we need is enough interest to see it through and enough initial
members to split the costs of incorporation.
I could even add a field to the Member Profiles called "Affiliated Club"
in which members could put whatever "real" club they belong to. I
suspect that alot of AzVJC members are members of the Az Lo-Rangers as
well.
The bottom line here is that I'm trying to make it easy for members of
the AzVJC to join and maintain membership of an "organized club." The
idea is to provide a webpage where they can pay their dues via PayPal
and be done with it. No meetings to attend no check to write and mail,
just an online payment. If the AzVJC shadow club doesn't interest
anyone, would the membership of the Az LowRangers perhaps be willing to
let our members join "On-Line" and pay their dues via PayPal? Since the
Az-Low Rangers rules are very similiar to the AzVJC's anyhow.
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
44387 From: <flatfendr@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:32am
Subject: Re: ZJ parts
According to the dealer the bushings are shot. They replaced the lower front ones about 4 months ago. Nothing was said then about warranty issues. By the way , can you just replace the bushings?
44388 From: Chatfield, Mike <Mike@A...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:34pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non entity) has legal
right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it, the AzVJC never
incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't own anything
(including the copyrighted webpages).
Just something to think about.
BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want to be a part
of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change unless YOU make
the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
- Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a good idea for
those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without everyone's
authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
separate, and must not be liked to our current website any more than any
other club currently is.
44389 From: paparoach85251 <lespaparoach@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:34pm
Subject: Axle swap wrenching party -Sun 9am
Hey everyone! Just wanted to let everyone know that we will be
swapping my new Dana 44 into my TJ this Sunday at 9 am at Chris
Krieg's house. Several of you had mentioned that you would be willing
to help out so here's your chance. Especially needed is someone with
lots of brake experience as we will be swapping the drums off my old
Dana 35 on to the new axle. I can provide refreshments for everyone.
Send me an email if you would like to help out and I can send you
directions to Chris' house in Chandler.
Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Les R
44390 From: rick_logan2002 <rlogan@d...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:35pm
Subject: Flagstaff 4 x4
Anybody have an opionion on this company
44391 From: David R. W. Withers <dr_ww@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:35pm
Subject: RE: ZJ parts
most warranty work has a warranty itself. I would check on it.
David
-----Original Message-----
From: flatfendr@aol.com [mailto:flatfendr@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:32 PM
To: macunasprint@earthlink.net; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ZJ parts
According to the dealer the bushings are shot. They replaced the lower front ones about 4 months ago. Nothing was said then about warranty issues. By the way , can you just replace the bushings?
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
44392 From: <rlpii@q...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:39pm
Subject: Re: "Nearly Jeepers..Trail Destroyers" Part II
Neal,
Man would I love to go camping this weekend. Unfortunately I'm booked all day Saturday. I hope that I didn't give the impression that all rock crawlers were bad. That is definitely NOT the case! This was just my way of describing this one idiot. His vehicle, like the trucks, had no sign of any affiliation with any club, they just drove and acted without regard to our sport and our environment.
We had in our group two AZVJC's (Nick Smith and Jason LaLiberty) who have nicely built rigs, and while not extreme rock crawlers, they were able to go places the rest of of couldn't (or elected not to) go. I really don't know what the answer is to these renegade off-roaders? Maybe we could solicit the help of the AZVGC? :-)
Again, I got no bone to pick with rock crawlers, they are exciting to watch and they do some amazing things with those vehicles. Have fun camping this weekend, and maybe when you get back we'll have some new ideas on our challenges.
Bob
74 CJ-5
Neal Han**** wrote:
Bob, there are many of us that are extreme rock crawlers that know the issues and fight for our rights. I personally invite you and anyone else to come out to the old Jamboree site this weekend to have dinner and a camp out and some intelligent conversations about 4 wheeling and where its going in this state. :)
Neal Han****, 74cj5 rock crawler
rlpeckii wrote:
Well, I've read most of the recent posts regarding destroying trails
and the need to belong to an organized club to help keep the trails
open. I just can't keep it in any longer . . . .:-)
I have been wheelin for over 40 years and for the past 4 years here in
Arizona. We have some of the best, and most accessable, trails I have
ever seen, and I have wheeled in California, Alaska, Colorado, Utah,
Nevada, and of course in Arizona.
Recently I attended an AZVJC run out to Box Canyon and Martinez
Canyon. For me, this was the best wheelin yet. I found the members
to be friendly, helpful, knowledgeable, and very concerned about the
environment. I was proud to be wheelin with these folks . . .
Unfortunately, there were other folks out on this trail too. One in
particular was a well built "crawler" (looked like a modified Blazer
without the body), who took it upon himself to go off the trails and
run over bushes and trees to get by the slower vehicles. We also
encountered a group of trucks that were drinking heavily (the drivers
where actucally the ones that were doing the drinking) and pretty much
tore up their vehicles and the trail. In addition, we encountered a
lone pick-up truck that couldn't even make it up Box Canyon without
being strapped up.
I guess my point is that it is not the true "Jeepers" that we have
worry about, it is these sudo Baja Racers and Rock Crawlers that don't
read these posts (that would be assuming that they could read), they
don't even know that lands are being closed, much less they probably
don't care. Just look at what has happened to Sycamore Creek.
Everytime I venture out there, I am amazed that it is still open.
I have not seen any evidence that the members of AZVJC ever knowingly
damage the trails or the environment. While a few may be slightly
outspoken (grin). They do a lot for our sport/hobby and I only wish I
had more time and resources to contribute.
I had a few extra cents, so there they are . . .
Keep on wheelin,
Bob
74 CJ-5
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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44393 From: scramzilla <allvol@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:41pm
Subject: The good, Bad and the Ulgy.....
I've read most of the posts on the subject of Rock stacking, by-pass
building and organized clubs ect....ect.... And I have kept and open
mind about it. Most of the people in this group have done the same. My
last message will address the people that I believe are the minority
few.
First let me give the primmer for this post. If you are a member of
any organization that promotes public land use and helps keep it open
to the general public.....Attend regular "clean up" events in your
area.....Or attend or speak out at land issue meetings that try to
prevent groups from closing more and more of our public land, the rest
of this message does NOT apply to you....I repeat, does NOT apply to
you.
************************************************** ********************
************************************************** ********************
************************************************** *********
Delete this message now if you fall into one or all of the categories
that I listed above.
************************************************** ********************
************************************************** ********************
************************************************** *********
After reading the VJC over the last few days I can see that the Yahoo
portion of the VJC is no more than a message board turned into a chat
group. There is nothing wrong with that....just stating a fact. This
was even alluded to by several posting members. Now the other main
web page is another story.....I'm talking about the dot Org. page. It
is set up like another club pages with Trips, members rides, events,
yada yada yada. It is very interesting to me that the VJC tries very
hard not to become a club but is a club in spite of itself. It's like
the members of this group want to be a group but for one reason or
another, fail to go that extra step....(As I stated many times, I
don't care one way or the other)....just making a point.
I have heard from many posters that trumpet the club membership
numbers.....anywhere from a 1000 to 1400+. Now that is all well and
good but big numbers do NOT equate to a Jeeper behind every poster. I
would be willing to bet that there are members that do not even
believe in the recreational 4-wheelin' Yep! I bet there are a few
eco-Nazis in this group watching and listing what is discussed....If I
were one of their Ilk, that's what I'd do. Also, there are many people
that read this board solely for it's entertainment value.
Entertainment in watching people smack around each other and watching
people post messages about 4-wheelin' that do not have a clue of which
they speak.
Now I would very much like to address the people that do NOT fall into
ANY of the categories that I listed above. I'll call these people:
Jeepers marooned on the Island of misfit toys. You know the Christmas
story. It's a place for toys that did not fit the "norm" as far as
toys go. There was a "Charlie in the box".........and Water Pistol
that shot jelly.... Oh, and don't forget the Elephant with the pink
spots.......I think you get the picture. They are in a world of there
on. These wheelin' misfits don't give a flying monkeys *** about club
dues, ASA or ANY organization that asks for money. Oh they have
money. And have nooooooooo problem spending tons of it on their rig!
They think that it's a by-gawd free country and they can do whatever
they want, whenever they want, and nobody by-gawd better try stop-um.
Then you have the "I've been here longer that you" group of people
that will whip up a story about wheelin' a certain place for X-number
of years and that's just the way it's gonna be. It was free 30 years
ago so it's gonna be free now!......Most of the time they blame
everything on the younger generation.
Which brings me to the younger generation. There are many youths
driving Quads now that were not around years ago and these things
cause MAJOR damage to land a vegetation. A careless quad rider can do
more damage in a week than a parking lot full of trail riding Jeeps
can do in a year!
Last but not least is probably most dangerous group of wheelers out
there. It's the "no opinion whatsoever" group. They just go about
there
business, not a care in the world until it effects them directly. A
large % of Dune people are this way but last year they got their wake
up call. Yep! They were fat dumb and happy until the Eco-Nazis found a
weed that is on the endangered species list growing in the
Dunes.......then BAM!!!!!!!.....Half the Dunes were closed in the
blink of an eye.
I'll summarize my point now by saying: EVERY MEMBER IN THIS GROUP CAN
COME UP WITH $25.00 AND JOIN THE ASA! IF YOU ARE TO FREAKIN' CHEAP TO
SPEND $25.00 A YEAR TO HELP KEEP THE LAND THAT YOU SAY IS YOURS
......I CONSIDER YOU A PARASITE ON THE BACK OF EVERY WHEELER IN THIS
STATE THAT LIVES UP TO THAT MINIMUM STANDARD. Now before you start
sending me hate mail, make sure that you re-read the first section
again just in case you missed it.
Clay Forrester
44394 From: Ross Skinner <rskinner@s...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:36pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Whirlwind in a teapot.....thats all this is as usual. Mike, start a
club...fine, have fun.. leave this thing alone, the only folks I believe
have a say are the ones that founded it...even though you do alot for
it...they really have "ownership" of this. Using what they did to create
another AZVJC does NOT pass the smell test. Maybe you should talk them into
starting a club...AZOJF...AZ Old Jeep Farts..or some such.
Ross..(nearly a founder )
-----Original Message-----
From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non entity) has legal
right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it, the AzVJC never
incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't own anything
(including the copyrighted webpages).
Just something to think about.
BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want to be a part
of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change unless YOU make
the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
- Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a good idea for
those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without everyone's
authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
separate, and must not be liked to our current website any more than any
other club currently is.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44395 From: <flatfendr@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:46am
Subject: Re: ZJ parts
Can you believe the policy is in the glove box. When we pick the Jeep up this afternoon I will do some research.
Thanks for the input,
Sam
44396 From: Joe Kearney <joe@j...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:54pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
I have asked Doug that exact same question.
I would like to hear what he and the other 5 originals say.
Joe Kearney
Joe@J...
-----Original Message-----
From: Ross Skinner [mailto:rskinner@s...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:36 PM
To: AZVJC (E-mail)
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Whirlwind in a teapot.....thats all this is as usual. Mike, start a
club...fine, have fun.. leave this thing alone, the only folks I believe
have a say are the ones that founded it...even though you do alot for
it...they really have "ownership" of this. Using what they did to create
another AZVJC does NOT pass the smell test. Maybe you should talk them
into
starting a club...AZOJF...AZ Old Jeep Farts..or some such.
Ross..(nearly a founder )
-----Original Message-----
From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non entity) has legal
right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it, the AzVJC
never
incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't own
anything
(including the copyrighted webpages).
Just something to think about.
BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want to be a
part
of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change unless YOU
make
the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
- Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a good idea
for
those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without everyone's
authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
separate, and must not be liked to our current website any more than any
other club currently is.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44397 From: Eric Marble <emarble3@p...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:02pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
Just a quick question. how many members carry a blm permit anyways? Even a
club permit doesn't cover when your out wheeling alone with friends. From
what I've heard they are going to start ticketing this year. Two weeks ago I
ran into some rangers out in the Florence area, first time other then jambo
or Arca.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ross Skinner" <rskinner@s...>
To: "AZVJC (E-mail)" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:36 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> Whirlwind in a teapot.....thats all this is as usual. Mike, start a
> club...fine, have fun.. leave this thing alone, the only folks I believe
> have a say are the ones that founded it...even though you do alot for
> it...they really have "ownership" of this. Using what they did to create
> another AZVJC does NOT pass the smell test. Maybe you should talk them
into
> starting a club...AZOJF...AZ Old Jeep Farts..or some such.
> Ross..(nearly a founder )
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non entity) has legal
> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it, the AzVJC
never
> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't own anything
> (including the copyrighted webpages).
>
> Just something to think about.
>
> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want to be a part
> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change unless YOU make
> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
>
> - Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a good idea
for
> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without everyone's
> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any more than any
> other club currently is.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44398 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:55pm
Subject: Doug Ballard is silent...
I see that Doug is posting, yet he remains silent on the subject of
organization... Many posts exist in which he has stated his
anti-organization thoughts... I hope the lure of a presidency hasn't caused
him to change his mind.
Oh well... I have created another Arizona Virtual Jeep Club group on Yahoo
Groups which has the name AzVJC@yahoogroups.com
If, for some reason, there ever comes a day when this group organizes
without at least 50% of the actual membership count voting for organization,
I will activate the group and those who wish to continue to be virtual can
do so.
Kind Regards,
Joe West
44399 From: Neal Han**** <azredrocker@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:55pm
Subject: Re: Flagstaff work
Try Scott Dana at American Spring INC. He's a good friend and should be able to help.
rick_logan2002 wrote:
Does anybody know of another shop in Flagstaff and not Flagstaff 4x4
I will never take my jeep to them again I will go to 4 wheel supply
in Phoenix
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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44400 From: rlpeckii <rlpii@q...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:55pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs
Mike,
I think what Joe is saying is that it is OK to create a new club, just
don't "affiliate" it with the AZVJC. If some of the members want to
get together and set up the "Organized Arizona Jeep Club" or the
"Official Arizona Jeep Club" that is OK. Post something on the
AZVJC's site that it exists, and folks can join or not join as they
see fit. Under those circumstances, hell, I might even join :-)
What most of us (I hope) don't want, is to F**k up a good thing like
the AZVJC. You, the orginal 6 (?) and all the rest of the active
members have done a fantastic job of creating probably the largest
(member wise) group of four wheelers in the nation and probably in the
world. There is nothing stopping current members from starting a new
and organized club with dues, officers, and a charter etc. And I
don't think there is anything stopping a AZVJCer from joining and
affiliating with both clubs?
This thread is starting to get ugly, the next thing will be attorneys.
lawsuits and counter lawsuits. Can't we all just get along? :-)
Let's go wheelin or something?
Bob
74 CJ-5
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...> wrote:
> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non entity) has
legal
> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it, the
AzVJC never
> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't own
anything
> (including the copyrighted webpages).
>
> Just something to think about.
>
> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want to be
a part
> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change unless
YOU make
> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
>
> - Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@y...
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a good
idea for
> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the
AZVJC....
> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without
everyone's
> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any more than
any
> other club currently is.
44401 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:57pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
Typical corporate mentality. "I don't like it the way it is so I think it should be changed. Who cares what it was created for?"
Again, I say BAH!
Chris K
From: "Brian Hill"
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:17:48 -0700
To: "David R. W. Withers"
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
David,
Already read it before joining. You think I didn't. Ha! You make a lot of assumptions for such a bright individual.
In life everything changes and evolves. This will happen to AzVJC too. Sorry you don't like it, but you don't have to. This won't hurt you a bit.
Don't look now but the response to the poll is about 50/50 with 16 percent undecided.
If you do it the way you've always done it, then you'll get what you've always got.
I like change... Change is good.
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'Brian Hill'
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
read the history of the club, and maybe you'll understand.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:48 PM
To: David R. W. Withers
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
No I'm not. I'm kinda new around here. Thought I found myself a home though. Not sure yet why I want to be a member of that organization yet, but I'll figure it out eventually. Newbies get a break on this don't they? You must be a big time member or you wouldn't be asking. Good for you! You should be proud.
I guess if the ASA4WDC changes it's mind next year then so be it. I'm sure that they'll miss both the revenue and ability to influence what we do at AzVJC inc. Let's cross that bridge when we come to it.
If you're not investing in a paid membership in an incorporated AzVJC club then you really don't have anything to complain about do you? What's the beef?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'Brian Hill'
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:29 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
The question is, why aren't you a ASA4WDC member already????
probably not
What happens next year when the ASAWDC says, we changed our minds, you need to have meetings and by-laws?
What then?!!!!
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:26 PM
To: David R. W. Withers; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Hi David,
I thought you were going away for awhile... What happened?
How about not telling me how to spend my money... If I want to spend it on AzVJC for a membership club I should be able to. I want to contribute to this club in that way.
If you don't want to participate then don't. Continue to be a member in the form you are now. Still sounds like everyone is welcome. Even You
Do you think it devalues your membership because there are those who are willing to contribute monetarily to the club and those who aren't?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
If you want to help out, give your money to those organized clubs.
-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@azvjc.org]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:53 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Joe,
I think you missed the point here. The idea is not to change the AzVJC
as it is, but in essence to create a 2nd club, a shadow club. The AzVJC
will remain unchanged, people will still come and go as they please,
there will still be no dues, no elections, no rules, just as it is now.
However, members of the AzVJC will have the OPTION to join the 2nd club
and the only requirement that is different is that they will need to pay
dues; in addition, the other "requirements" (ie. live in Az, own a Jeep)
will simply be enforced.
I agree that the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club does not need anything else.
However, offering the OPTION of joining a "Real" club that is a shadow
of the Az "Virtual" JC, I can only see this as a good thing for both the
individuals and our sport in general. Once again to be part of the
AzVJC, nothing changes. To join the shadow club, you simply need to pay
dues.
I thought alot about the name for the 2nd group. And even though the V
stands for "Virtual," I really think it should be the same name. Any
other name wouldn't fit right "Arizona Real Jeep Club", "Arizona Jeep
Club" and besides, then I'd have to create a whole new website
(www.AzRJC.org or www.AzJC.org ).
Again this isn't an effort to ORGANIZE the AzVJC, it is an effort to
provide the membership of the AzVJC another OPTION. And I disagree that
the entire AzVJC membership would have to approve of such a thing, those
that don't approve or don't want to don't have to join the shadow club.
All we need is enough interest to see it through and enough initial
members to split the costs of incorporation.
I could even add a field to the Member Profiles called "Affiliated Club"
in which members could put whatever "real" club they belong to. I
suspect that alot of AzVJC members are members of the Az Lo-Rangers as
well.
The bottom line here is that I'm trying to make it easy for members of
the AzVJC to join and maintain membership of an "organized club." The
idea is to provide a webpage where they can pay their dues via PayPal
and be done with it. No meetings to attend no check to write and mail,
just an online payment. If the AzVJC shadow club doesn't interest
anyone, would the membership of the Az LowRangers perhaps be willing to
let our members join "On-Line" and pay their dues via PayPal? Since the
Az-Low Rangers rules are very similiar to the AzVJC's anyhow.
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" wrote:
> The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service .
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service .
44402 From: Baja Fleg <fleigle@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:58pm
Subject: RE: Organzied Clubs
Brian your digging yourself a hole here and being very immature. Just to
make sure you understand how copyrights really work and what you can and can
not do I have taken the pleasure of digging up an old article just for you.
I'm only including the first two paragraphs of it because its very long and
wordy but I think you will get the point. You will see that even though the
AZVJC is not copyrighted with the copyright office they are still owned by a
person and you are not able to claim anything from AZVJC as your own. You
would need to get the endorsement from the webmaster and every member of the
AZVJC to be legal. Good Luck!! If you would like the rest of the article
shoot me an email, I would be happy to send it to you.
Michael
-----------------------------------------------
1.) The Webmaster's Copyright
So you'd like to use some content on someone else's site or would
like to know what your rights as a web developer are? Then great,
because that's exactly what this article is about. To start out, your
images, photographs, and text are copyrighted the moment you create
them without any need of registering them or including a copyright
symbol on them. However, registering them will help in the case
that you'd ever need to take anyone to court.
"Fair Use"
Fair use is placing another's work such as text out of an article
on one of your web pages. You can usually get away with 2-3 sentences
quoting them and making sure to give them credit. Also, never mislead
the reader to think that the author of that article is endorsing you
in anyway. You should still always try to get the author's permission
for something like this, although it isn't usually required.
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
I just checked the copyright office and did not find the AzVJClogo
copyrighted.
__________________________________________________ _______________
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44403 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:00pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
Crap, This is all starting to sound like a hostile corporate takeover.
LEAVE THE AZVJC ALONE!
Chris K
> From: "Chatfield, Mike" <Mike@A...>
> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:34:11 -0700
> To: "'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non entity) has legal
> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it, the AzVJC never
> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't own anything
> (including the copyrighted webpages).
>
> Just something to think about.
>
> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want to be a part
> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change unless YOU make
> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
>
> - Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a good idea for
> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without everyone's
> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any more than any
> other club currently is.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44404 From: Bill Mish <yldkat55@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:07pm
Subject: Re: Re: Thanks (more)
Nah, we just don't like you.
Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B
----- Original Message -----
From: "David R. W. Withers" <dr_ww@h...>
To: "'Jayke Thorpe'" <jeepboy_3@y...>; "'Ross Skinner'"
<rskinner@s...>; "'AZVJC (E-mail)'" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:03 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Thanks (more)
> What happened to all the people that jumped down my throat (flamed me)
> for wanting to change/add a few things to the club?!!!
> Have you already joined another one?
> David Withers
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jayke Thorpe [mailto:jeepboy_3@y...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 11:54 AM
> To: Ross Skinner; AZVJC (E-mail)
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Thanks (more)
>
>
> I think the AZVJC is great!
> --- Ross Skinner <rskinner@s...> wrote:
> > After hearing some of the LIMITATIONS being placed
> > upon the clubs by the
> > State and I am sure the Feds are not far behind...I
> > am alarmed...who in the
> > hell rolled over and let themselves be boxed in like
> > that. You are not
> > using state lands for profit...where is there an
> > ordinance allowing them
> > that kind of control?
> >
> > If you don't think this is not a methodical effort
> > to get your access
> > ultimately removed or severely limited ...lets say
> > one run a quarter..I have
> > a bridge to sell you.
> >
> > Yes, clubs can be fun and can focus activism to
> > better influence
> > bureaucrats, but, it is looking like the usual
> > closed cliques (you know,
> > care more, know more, better, smarter and so on) are
> > forming and are doing
> > things that may not be in the best interest of our
> > use of our lands. Again,
> > I am not sure of this but it seems to be a
> > consistent outcome of groups like
> > this.
> >
> > Now it is our responsibility as independents to do
> > things and say things
> > that represent a broader reality of our desires then
> > what some small
> > cliquish clubs think.
> >
> > This has been an interesting discussion.
> >
> > Ross
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Clay Forrester [mailto:allvol@c...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:07 AM
> > To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; akamofoe
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Thanks (more)
> >
> >
> > What will end up happing is that your land (private
> > property) would be the
> > last to go.....that's all. The rest of the public
> > State land and the rest of
> > the country would lose theirs. I for one do not want
> > to go wheelin' in the
> > same area over and over and over................Do
> > you? If we lose the
> > clubs, we lose it all
> >
> >
> > Clay
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "akamofoe" <akamoefo@h...>
> > To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 10:17 PM
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Thanks (more)
> >
> >
> > > I've been wheel'n for more than 20 years now and
> > have never been a
> > > member of a club that collects dues. It's always
> > been a good group of
> > > friends, their friends, etc.. Don't get me wrong,
> > I agree that those
> > > clubs (or organizations) that are collecting money
> > (I mean dues) are
> > > using them for good purposes, keeping our lands
> > open.
> > > But I had an Idea. Why don't we get together and
> > start a non-profit
> > > organization, collect donations (tax deductible),
> > contact a couple of
> > > the Big Three Dealers, some Magazines, etc.. With
> > all those
> > > contributions we could go out and purchase our own
> > land and open our
> > > own OHV area. Select a couple of area groups to
> > head a panel to
> > > oversee OUR LANDS.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44405 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:01pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
I prefer AZVJC Classic.
Chris
> From: Ross Skinner <rskinner@s...>
> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:36:20 -0700
> To: "AZVJC (E-mail)" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
> Whirlwind in a teapot.....thats all this is as usual. Mike, start a
> club...fine, have fun.. leave this thing alone, the only folks I believe
> have a say are the ones that founded it...even though you do alot for
> it...they really have "ownership" of this. Using what they did to create
> another AZVJC does NOT pass the smell test. Maybe you should talk them into
> starting a club...AZOJF...AZ Old Jeep Farts..or some such.
> Ross..(nearly a founder )
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:34 PM
> To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> And why is that? Are you saying that the AzVJC (a non entity) has legal
> right to the name "Arizona Virtual Jeep Club?" How can it, the AzVJC never
> incorporated, it doesn't exist legally so therefore it can't own anything
> (including the copyrighted webpages).
>
> Just something to think about.
>
> BTW, why are you (or anyone) so against it, if you don't want to be a part
> of the shadow club then don't. Nothing is going to change unless YOU make
> the choice to join the shadow and if you do IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
>
> - Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a good idea for
> those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
> webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without everyone's
> authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
> separate, and must not be liked to our current website any more than any
> other club currently is.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44406 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:03pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
Again, typical corporate mentality
From: "Brian Hill"
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:19:21 -0700
To: arizonajeep@cox.net, "'az_jeeper_mike'" , az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
I just checked the copyright office and did not find the AzVJC logo copyrighted.
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe W
To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:01 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Hi Mike,
Splitting the group into two clubs will ultimately lead to the demise of one
or the other. I see absolutely no reason to become a "real" club or have a
mirror "real" club at all. Should we become real so we can be regulated?
Should we become real so we can have officers or pay dues? I'm sorry, but
the benefits of being virtual far outweigh the benefits of being real. If
you'd care to elaborate on the benefits you see to being real; I'd be more
than happy to have a nice debate with you.
As far as taking the AzVJC name... ABSOLUTELY NOT! If you want to create a
separate group, you create it with a completely different name (unless of
course, EVERYONE in the club agrees to allowing our name to be used by this
new offshoot group).
Your suggestion of having people join the Arizona LowRangers is a good one.
If anyone craves reality, this will be a good option for them and will
ensure that any "real" club remains absolutely separate.
You've done a good job with our webpage Mike... you've invested more
personal time than perhaps any other member of our club; for this, I thank
you. However, I believe your attempts to "organize" our group are misguided
and not at all in the interests of the majority of the people in our club.
This is yet another case of; if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
The AZVJC isn't broke, and it doesn't need to be changed. I look forward to
our continued discussion...
Joe
>
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44407 From: Mark Mesalam <m_mesalam@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:05pm
Subject: RE: New poll for az_vjc
I sent this 20 minutes ago, before the explanation. Dump this...
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Mesalam [mailto:m_mesalam@y...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:27 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] New poll for az_vjc
Before I would be able to decide I would need to know what would be the
benefit of Incorporating.
-----Original Message-----
From: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:az_vjc@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:33 AM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] New poll for az_vjc
Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
az_vjc group:
Would you be interested in Joining an
Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated?
o Yes
o Maybe
o No
To vote, please visit the following web page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/az_vjc/polls
Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.
Thanks!
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44408 From: Bill Mish <yldkat55@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 2:10pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
You get out of it whet you put into it.
Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B
----- Original Message -----
From: "jeepthang87yj" <jeep_thang@h...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:53 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
> Oh come on as if there isn't enough clubs that want your money
> already, and have little requirements you need to stay in the club,
> and besides it's really stupid to pay money just to watch people talk
> on the net.
> Not me I'll vote against it.
>
> Sincerely: JEEP THANG
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > Mike,
> >
> > Organization is in the air again.... and I suspect that once again,
> it shall
> > be shot down completely.
> >
> > There are enough organized clubs to join here in the valley if
> people want
> > to join. The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer, and
> we
> > already have a Webmaster who is doing a fantastic job <grin>.
> >
> > The only way that this group will become an organized entity is if
> you can
> > get every single member to vote for organization... and I hate to
> tell you
> > this; but I'll never vote for it...put it to a vote and watch how
> badly it
> > gets shot down.
> >
> > If people want to belong to an organized group, go off and start
> your own
> > organized group. Call it the Arizona Jeep Club or the Arizona
> Axlebreakers
> > or whatever... but I suggest that people not get their hopes up to
> high for
> > the AZVJC to EVER become organized.
> >
> > Ta-Ta till next year's organizational pleas start anew...
> >
> >
> > Joe West
> >
> > Long live Anarchy!
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:29 AM
> > To: 'az_vjc@y...'
> > Subject: [az_vjc] Organized Clubs
> >
> >
> > To all of those that already belong to an organized club, you may
> now
> > delete this message (or continue reading if you're curious).
> >
> > For everyone here that is interested:
> >
> > I talked to Sandee McCullen at the cleanup in January and have
> been trying
> > to figure out a way to bring this up to the group. Well it looks
> like this
> > may be the perfect time with all that has happened in the past day
> or so.
> >
> > We can make the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club an incorporated club
> and become
> > a member club of the Arizona State Association of 4WD Clubs WITHOUT
> > organizing (at least not any more than we already have). Sandee
> said that we
> > need three "officers" and bylaws, we don't have to have membership
> > requirements, elections, "official" club runs. All the bylaws have
> to say
> > is who the officers are, how new members join, and when we have
> meetings
> > (even if it is never).
> >
> > Here is the way it would work. As it is now, anyone can join the
> AzVJC
> > via the website and post messages to the group, this WILL NOT
> change. What
> > changes is, once someone has joined the AzVJC and gone on one run
> (so we can
> > verify that they live in Arizona and HAVE a JEEP) then they can
> join the
> > Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated (AzVJC Inc). All they have
> to do is
> > pay their dues for the year. If they want to drop out of the AzVJC
> Inc then
> > they just don't pay the dues; it doesn't mean that they will be
> dropped from
> > the website or mailing list. Nothing else changes... all we're
> doing is
> > adding another option for our members.
> >
> > Here is what I'm thinking for the incorporation:
> >
> > For the three officers:
> >
> > President - Responsible for turning in New Membership Information
> to
> > ASA4WDC, attend ASA4WDC meetings. (I nominate DougB if he's
> interested)
> > Treasurer - Responsible for collecting money from members and
> paying
> > ASA4WDC and Az State. (I nominate Jon Loveless, if he's interested,
> since he
> > already does alot with stickers, etc...)
> > Webmaster - Responsible for maintaining the website and e-mail
> list.
> >
> > How to become a New Member: 1. Join the AzVJC 2. Go on a run
> with the
> > AzVJC (with at least one member of the AzVJC Inc present) 3. Pay
> Dues.
> > That's it.
> >
> > How to become a Non Member: 1. Don't pay your dues.
> >
> > Meetings and Elections: None. If a club officer steps down,
> he/she
> > chooses the replacement.
> >
> > Dues: I am thinking since Az State has decided that clubs are
> only
> > allowed 2 runs per month that we just include an individual permit
> in the
> > cost of the dues for the year. This way members of the AzVJC Inc
> are double
> > covered and they won't have to remember to get one every year (like
> me).
> > Also included in the cost of dues would be ASA4WDC membership.
> Because of
> > the incorporation, we'll likely have to start paying for the
> webspace (which
> > we currently get for free) which is $21.25/month. We could also
> include
> > things like paying to get rid of advertisements on Yahoo Groups,
> extra
> > stickers to hand out at events, flyers, banners, etc... I estimate
> roughly
> > $40/year which is right in line with most clubs.
> >
> > The benefits are: 1. The AzVJC will be covered by the ASA4WDC
> million
> > dollar insurance. 2. ASA4WDC and united will get more money to
> fight the
> > eco-nazis. 3. The AzVJC will finally be recognized as the largest
> club at
> > the ASA4WDC Jamboree :) 4. I'm sure there's more but my mind is
> drawing a
> > blank.
> >
> > The downside is: 1. Paying Dues. 2. There are no other
> downsides, other
> > than paying dues, nothing changes, and you only have to pay dues if
> you want
> > to (you just remain a member of AzVJC but not AzVJC Inc).
> >
> > Does this make sense? I'll post a poll to find out how many may
> be
> > interested. The initial start up costs will depend on the number
> of people
> > starting the AzVJC Inc as incorporation can initially be expensive
> ($500?)
> > ALSO, if anyone has been through the incorporation process before,
> we could
> > use your assistance.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > - Mike
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44409 From: Ross Skinner <rskinner@s...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:57pm
Subject: RE: Doug Ballard is silent...
I like the way you act buddy! The NSA needs that kind of initiative..
He may be forming an exploratory committee to consider a run ;-)
Ross
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:55 PM
To: Azvjc (E-mail)
Subject: [az_vjc] Doug Ballard is silent...
I see that Doug is posting, yet he remains silent on the subject of
organization... Many posts exist in which he has stated his
anti-organization thoughts... I hope the lure of a presidency hasn't caused
him to change his mind.
Oh well... I have created another Arizona Virtual Jeep Club group on Yahoo
Groups which has the name AzVJC@yahoogroups.com
If, for some reason, there ever comes a day when this group organizes
without at least 50% of the actual membership count voting for organization,
I will activate the group and those who wish to continue to be virtual can
do so.
Kind Regards,
Joe West
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