blooddrive
01-04-2004, 12:48 PM
44360-44384
44360 From: Joe Kearney <joe@j...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:01pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
OK I think that this takes the prize for the longest thread.
What do ya think?
Joe Kearney
Joe@J...
-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:50 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
If there appears to be enough interest, I'll set something up.
The poll will end after one Week (on March 7th) we'll see what the
interest is then.
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Brian Hill" <brian@a...> wrote:
> Hi Mike,
>
> Will there be a signup sheet for those interested who would
participate? There are probably a lot of people out here like me who
would buy into this. If there is a signup area will it be made public
so we can see who does want to participate? There are probably a lot
of conventional thinkers who are just lurking that may sign up.
>
> ~B~
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: az_jeeper_mike
> To: az_vjc@y...
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:52 PM
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Joe,
>
> I think you missed the point here. The idea is not to change the
> AzVJC as it is, but in essence to create a 2nd club, a shadow
club.
> The AzVJC will remain unchanged, people will still come and go as
> they please, there will still be no dues, no elections, no rules,
> just as it is now. However, members of the AzVJC will have the
> OPTION to join the 2nd club and the only requirement that is
> different is that they will need to pay dues; in addition, the
> other "requirements" (ie. live in Az, own a Jeep) will simply be
> enforced.
>
> I agree that the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club does not need anything
> else. However, offering the OPTION of joining a "Real" club that
is a
> shadow of the Az "Virtual" JC, I can only see this as a good
thing
> for both the individuals and our sport in general. Once again to
be
> part of the AzVJC, nothing changes. To join the shadow club, you
> simply need to pay dues.
>
> I thought alot about the name for the 2nd group. And even though
the
> V stands for "Virtual," I really think it should be the same
name.
> Any other name wouldn't fit right "Arizona Real Jeep
Club", "Arizona
> Jeep Club" and besides, then I'd have to create a whole new
website
> (www.AzRJC.org or www.AzJC.org).
>
> Again this isn't an effort to ORGANIZE the AzVJC, it is an effort
to
> provide the membership of the AzVJC another OPTION. And I
disagree
> that the entire AzVJC membership would have to approve of such a
> thing, those that don't approve or don't want to don't have to
join
> the shadow club. All we need is enough interest to see it
through
> and enough initial members to split the costs of incorporation.
>
> I could even add a field to the Member Profiles
called "Affiliated
> Club" in which members could put whatever "real" club they belong
to.
> I suspect that alot of AzVJC members are members of the Az Lo-
Rangers
> as well.
>
> The bottom line here is that I'm trying to make it easy for
members
> of the AzVJC to join and maintain membership of an "organized
club."
> The idea is to provide a webpage where they can pay their dues
via
> PayPal and be done with it. No meetings to attend no check to
write
> and mail, just an online payment. If the AzVJC shadow club
doesn't
> interest anyone, would the membership of the Az LowRangers
perhaps be
> willing to let our members join "On-Line" and pay their dues via
> PayPal? Since the Az-Low Rangers rules are very similiar to the
> AzVJC's anyhow.
>
> - Mike
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer...
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVERTISEMENT
44361 From: David R. W. Withers <dr_ww@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 0:59pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
read the history of the club, and maybe you'll understand.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:48 PM
To: David R. W. Withers
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
No I'm not. I'm kinda new around here. Thought I found myself a home though. Not sure yet why I want to be a member of that organization yet, but I'll figure it out eventually. Newbies get a break on this don't they? You must be a big time member or you wouldn't be asking. Good for you! You should be proud.
I guess if the ASA4WDC changes it's mind next year then so be it. I'm sure that they'll miss both the revenue and ability to influence what we do at AzVJC inc. Let's cross that bridge when we come to it.
If you're not investing in a paid membership in an incorporated AzVJC club then you really don't have anything to complain about do you? What's the beef?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'Brian Hill'
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:29 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
The question is, why aren't you a ASA4WDC member already????
probably not
What happens next year when the ASAWDC says, we changed our minds, you need to have meetings and by-laws?
What then?!!!!
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:26 PM
To: David R. W. Withers; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Hi David,
I thought you were going away for awhile... What happened?
How about not telling me how to spend my money... If I want to spend it on AzVJC for a membership club I should be able to. I want to contribute to this club in that way.
If you don't want to participate then don't. Continue to be a member in the form you are now. Still sounds like everyone is welcome. Even You
Do you think it devalues your membership because there are those who are willing to contribute monetarily to the club and those who aren't?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
If you want to help out, give your money to those organized clubs.
-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@azvjc.org]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:53 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Joe,
I think you missed the point here. The idea is not to change the AzVJC
as it is, but in essence to create a 2nd club, a shadow club. The AzVJC
will remain unchanged, people will still come and go as they please,
there will still be no dues, no elections, no rules, just as it is now.
However, members of the AzVJC will have the OPTION to join the 2nd club
and the only requirement that is different is that they will need to pay
dues; in addition, the other "requirements" (ie. live in Az, own a Jeep)
will simply be enforced.
I agree that the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club does not need anything else.
However, offering the OPTION of joining a "Real" club that is a shadow
of the Az "Virtual" JC, I can only see this as a good thing for both the
individuals and our sport in general. Once again to be part of the
AzVJC, nothing changes. To join the shadow club, you simply need to pay
dues.
I thought alot about the name for the 2nd group. And even though the V
stands for "Virtual," I really think it should be the same name. Any
other name wouldn't fit right "Arizona Real Jeep Club", "Arizona Jeep
Club" and besides, then I'd have to create a whole new website
(www.AzRJC.org or www.AzJC.org).
Again this isn't an effort to ORGANIZE the AzVJC, it is an effort to
provide the membership of the AzVJC another OPTION. And I disagree that
the entire AzVJC membership would have to approve of such a thing, those
that don't approve or don't want to don't have to join the shadow club.
All we need is enough interest to see it through and enough initial
members to split the costs of incorporation.
I could even add a field to the Member Profiles called "Affiliated Club"
in which members could put whatever "real" club they belong to. I
suspect that alot of AzVJC members are members of the Az Lo-Rangers as
well.
The bottom line here is that I'm trying to make it easy for members of
the AzVJC to join and maintain membership of an "organized club." The
idea is to provide a webpage where they can pay their dues via PayPal
and be done with it. No meetings to attend no check to write and mail,
just an online payment. If the AzVJC shadow club doesn't interest
anyone, would the membership of the Az LowRangers perhaps be willing to
let our members join "On-Line" and pay their dues via PayPal? Since the
Az-Low Rangers rules are very similiar to the AzVJC's anyhow.
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44362 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:01pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Hi Mike,
Splitting the group into two clubs will ultimately lead to the demise of one
or the other. I see absolutely no reason to become a "real" club or have a
mirror "real" club at all. Should we become real so we can be regulated?
Should we become real so we can have officers or pay dues? I'm sorry, but
the benefits of being virtual far outweigh the benefits of being real. If
you'd care to elaborate on the benefits you see to being real; I'd be more
than happy to have a nice debate with you.
As far as taking the AzVJC name... ABSOLUTELY NOT! If you want to create a
separate group, you create it with a completely different name (unless of
course, EVERYONE in the club agrees to allowing our name to be used by this
new offshoot group).
Your suggestion of having people join the Arizona LowRangers is a good one.
If anyone craves reality, this will be a good option for them and will
ensure that any "real" club remains absolutely separate.
You've done a good job with our webpage Mike... you've invested more
personal time than perhaps any other member of our club; for this, I thank
you. However, I believe your attempts to "organize" our group are misguided
and not at all in the interests of the majority of the people in our club.
This is yet another case of; if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
The AZVJC isn't broke, and it doesn't need to be changed. I look forward to
our continued discussion...
Joe
>
44363 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:07pm
Subject: Re: New poll for az_vjc
Oh no! Not this again!
Chris K
> From: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Date: 28 Feb 2002 17:33:12 -0000
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] New poll for az_vjc
>
>
> Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
> az_vjc group:
>
> Would you be interested in Joining an
> Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated?
>
> o Yes
> o Maybe
> o No
>
>
> To vote, please visit the following web page:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/az_vjc/polls
>
> Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
> not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
> web site listed above.
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44364 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:08pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
David,
This is something that isn't going to happen. Don't take your stickers
off... <grin>
The really cool thing about this club is that most of the people who
actually participate in club activities feel the same way that we do.
If Mike creates a sign-up sheet for this new "real" club, he will have to
keep it completely separate from our clubs activities and web page... if
there are indeed a bunch of "conventional" thinkers out in AZVJC land who
think that Mike's idea is a good one, they can join the Arizona Jeep Club or
whatever Mike decides to call it, and they can go on their Merry way.
Hang tight David; we've been through this many times and the crash and burn
phase will happen soon.
Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David R. W. Withers [mailto:dr_ww@h...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:09 PM
> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> If you want to help out, give your money to those organized clubs.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:53 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Joe,
>
> I think you missed the point here. The idea is not to change
> the AzVJC
> as it is, but in essence to create a 2nd club, a shadow club.
> The AzVJC
> will remain unchanged, people will still come and go as they please,
> there will still be no dues, no elections, no rules, just as
> it is now.
> However, members of the AzVJC will have the OPTION to join
> the 2nd club
> and the only requirement that is different is that they will
> need to pay
> dues; in addition, the other "requirements" (ie. live in Az,
> own a Jeep)
> will simply be enforced.
>
> I agree that the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club does not need
> anything else.
> However, offering the OPTION of joining a "Real" club that is a shadow
> of the Az "Virtual" JC, I can only see this as a good thing
> for both the
> individuals and our sport in general. Once again to be part of the
> AzVJC, nothing changes. To join the shadow club, you simply
> need to pay
> dues.
>
> I thought alot about the name for the 2nd group. And even
> though the V
> stands for "Virtual," I really think it should be the same name. Any
> other name wouldn't fit right "Arizona Real Jeep Club", "Arizona Jeep
> Club" and besides, then I'd have to create a whole new website
> (www.AzRJC.org or www.AzJC.org).
>
> Again this isn't an effort to ORGANIZE the AzVJC, it is an effort to
> provide the membership of the AzVJC another OPTION. And I
> disagree that
> the entire AzVJC membership would have to approve of such a
> thing, those
> that don't approve or don't want to don't have to join the
> shadow club.
> All we need is enough interest to see it through and enough initial
> members to split the costs of incorporation.
>
> I could even add a field to the Member Profiles called
> "Affiliated Club"
> in which members could put whatever "real" club they belong to. I
> suspect that alot of AzVJC members are members of the Az Lo-Rangers as
> well.
>
> The bottom line here is that I'm trying to make it easy for members of
> the AzVJC to join and maintain membership of an "organized club." The
> idea is to provide a webpage where they can pay their dues via PayPal
> and be done with it. No meetings to attend no check to write
> and mail,
> just an online payment. If the AzVJC shadow club doesn't interest
> anyone, would the membership of the Az LowRangers perhaps be
> willing to
> let our members join "On-Line" and pay their dues via PayPal?
> Since the
> Az-Low Rangers rules are very similiar to the AzVJC's anyhow.
>
> - Mike
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer...
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44365 From: Casper <casper@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:08pm
Subject: Joe/FlexyXJ is the MAN!!!
44366 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:12pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Hi Brian,
If it turns out that you want to spend your money on a real club, feel free... try the Arizona LowRangers, I hear that they are a good group of guys and gals.
I will suggest that you don't get your hopes up too high for a separate group with the AZVJC name though... cause it isn't going to happen.
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:26 PM
To: David R. W. Withers; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Hi David,
I thought you were going away for awhile... What happened?
How about not telling me how to spend my money... If I want to spend it on AzVJC for a membership club I should be able to. I want to contribute to this club in that way.
If you don't want to participate then don't. Continue to be a member in the form you are now. Still sounds like everyone is welcome. Even You
Do you think it devalues your membership because there are those who are willing to contribute monetarily to the club and those who aren't?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
If you want to help out, give your money to those organized clubs.
-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@azvjc.org]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:53 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Joe,
I think you missed the point here. The idea is not to change the AzVJC
as it is, but in essence to create a 2nd club, a shadow club. The AzVJC
will remain unchanged, people will still come and go as they please,
there will still be no dues, no elections, no rules, just as it is now.
However, members of the AzVJC will have the OPTION to join the 2nd club
and the only requirement that is different is that they will need to pay
dues; in addition, the other "requirements" (ie. live in Az, own a Jeep)
will simply be enforced.
I agree that the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club does not need anything else.
However, offering the OPTION of joining a "Real" club that is a shadow
of the Az "Virtual" JC, I can only see this as a good thing for both the
individuals and our sport in general. Once again to be part of the
AzVJC, nothing changes. To join the shadow club, you simply need to pay
dues.
I thought alot about the name for the 2nd group. And even though the V
stands for "Virtual," I really think it should be the same name. Any
other name wouldn't fit right "Arizona Real Jeep Club", "Arizona Jeep
Club" and besides, then I'd have to create a whole new website
(www.AzRJC.org or www.AzJC.org).
Again this isn't an effort to ORGANIZE the AzVJC, it is an effort to
provide the membership of the AzVJC another OPTION. And I disagree that
the entire AzVJC membership would have to approve of such a thing, those
that don't approve or don't want to don't have to join the shadow club.
All we need is enough interest to see it through and enough initial
members to split the costs of incorporation.
I could even add a field to the Member Profiles called "Affiliated Club"
in which members could put whatever "real" club they belong to. I
suspect that alot of AzVJC members are members of the Az Lo-Rangers as
well.
The bottom line here is that I'm trying to make it easy for members of
the AzVJC to join and maintain membership of an "organized club." The
idea is to provide a webpage where they can pay their dues via PayPal
and be done with it. No meetings to attend no check to write and mail,
just an online payment. If the AzVJC shadow club doesn't interest
anyone, would the membership of the Az LowRangers perhaps be willing to
let our members join "On-Line" and pay their dues via PayPal? Since the
Az-Low Rangers rules are very similiar to the AzVJC's anyhow.
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
44367 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:14pm
Subject: Re: ot: Ultimate Fantasy
LMAO - Its great to talk about something other than the "O" word in the other threads.
Chris
From: Gary Holmes
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:39:16 -0700
To: Mike & Karen Acuna
Cc: AZVJC AZVJC
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ot: Ultimate Fantasy
Great Mike! Or did this come from your wife?
Gary Holmes
Mike & Karen Acuna wrote:
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:
Fwd: [Fw: Ultimate Fantasy]
From:
Rebecca Ayers
Date:
28 Feb 2002 10:30:30 EST
To:
mike karen acuna
__________________________________________________ __________________
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:
Fw: Ultimate Fantasy
From:
"MARILYN PERROTTA"
Date:
Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:58:42 -0800
To:
"Barbara&Joe Perrotta" , "Darlene Chang" , "Debbie England" , "Donna Brotherton" , "Charles D. Hein Jr" , "Juanita-Becky" , "MIKEL&KATHERINE Eisenbeis" , "SM Milam"
: Ultimate Fantasy
A Woman's Ultimate Fantasy
In a recent Harris On-line poll 38,562 men across the US
were asked to identify a woman's ultimate fantasy. 97.8%
of the respondents said that a woman's ultimate fantasy
is to have two men at once.
While this has been verified by a recent sociological study,
it appears that most men do not realize that in this fantasy,
one man is cooking and the other is cleaning.
44368 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:15pm
Subject: Re: Organized Club...
BAH!
From: "Chatfield, Mike"
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:15:16 -0700
To: "'AZ_VJC@YahooGroups.com'"
Subject: [az_vjc] Organized Club...
2nd try, this didn't go through the first time...
To all of those that already belong to an organized club, you may now delete this message (or continue reading if you're curious).
For everyone here that is interested:
I talked to Sandee McCullen at the cleanup in January and have been trying to figure out a way to bring this up to the group. Well it looks like this may be the perfect time with all that has happened in the past day or so.
We can make the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club an incorporated club and become a member club of the Arizona State Association of 4WD Clubs WITHOUT organizing (at least not any more than we already have). Sandee said that we need three "officers" and bylaws, we don't have to have membership requirements, elections, "official" club runs. All the bylaws have to say is who the officers are, how new members join, and when we have meetings (even if it is never).
Here is the way it would work. As it is now, anyone can join the AzVJC via the website and post messages to the group, this WILL NOT change. What changes is, once someone has joined the AzVJC and gone on one run (so we can verify that they live in Arizona and HAVE a JEEP) then they can join the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated (AzVJC Inc). All they have to do is pay their dues for the year. If they want to drop out of the AzVJC Inc then they just don't pay the dues; it doesn't mean that they will be dropped from the website or mailing list. Nothing else changes... all we're doing is adding another option for our members.
Here is what I'm thinking for the incorporation:
For the three officers:
President - Responsible for turning in New Membership Information to ASA4WDC, attend ASA4WDC meetings. (I nominate DougB if he's interested)
Treasurer - Responsible for collecting money from members and paying ASA4WDC and Az State. (I nominate Jon Loveless, if he's interested, since he already does alot with stickers, etc...)
Webmaster - Responsible for maintaining the website and e-mail list.
How to become a New Member: 1. Join the AzVJC 2. Go on a run with the AzVJC (with at least one member of the AzVJC Inc present) 3. Pay Dues. That's it.
How to become a Non Member: 1. Don't pay your dues.
Meetings and Elections: None. If a club officer steps down, he/she chooses the replacement.
Dues: I am thinking since Az State has decided that clubs are only allowed 2 runs per month that we just include an individual permit in the cost of the dues for the year. This way members of the AzVJC Inc are double covered and they won't have to remember to get one every year (like me). Also included in the cost of dues would be ASA4WDC membership. Because of the incorporation, we'll likely have to start paying for the webspace (which we currently get for free) which is $21.25/month. We could also include things like paying to get rid of advertisements on Yahoo Groups, extra stickers to hand out at events, flyers, banners, etc... I estimate roughly $40/year which is right in line with most clubs.
The benefits are: 1. The AzVJC will be covered by the ASA4WDC million dollar insurance. 2. ASA4WDC and united will get more money to fight the eco-nazis. 3. The AzVJC will finally be recognized as the largest club at the ASA4WDC Jamboree :) 4. I'm sure there's more but my mind is drawing a blank.
The downside is: 1. Paying Dues. 2. There are no other downsides, other than paying dues, nothing changes, and you only have to pay dues if you want to (you just remain a member of AzVJC but not AzVJC Inc).
Does this make sense? I'll post a poll to find out how many may be interested. The initial start up costs will depend on the number of people starting the AzVJC Inc as incorporation can initially be expensive ($500?) ALSO, if anyone has been through the incorporation process before, we could use your assistance.
Thanks,
- Mike
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service .
44369 From: Brian Hill <brian@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:17pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
David,
Already read it before joining. You think I didn't. Ha! You make a lot of assumptions for such a bright individual.
In life everything changes and evolves. This will happen to AzVJC too. Sorry you don't like it, but you don't have to. This won't hurt you a bit.
Don't look now but the response to the poll is about 50/50 with 16 percent undecided.
If you do it the way you've always done it, then you'll get what you've always got.
I like change... Change is good.
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'Brian Hill'
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
read the history of the club, and maybe you'll understand.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:48 PM
To: David R. W. Withers
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
No I'm not. I'm kinda new around here. Thought I found myself a home though. Not sure yet why I want to be a member of that organization yet, but I'll figure it out eventually. Newbies get a break on this don't they? You must be a big time member or you wouldn't be asking. Good for you! You should be proud.
I guess if the ASA4WDC changes it's mind next year then so be it. I'm sure that they'll miss both the revenue and ability to influence what we do at AzVJC inc. Let's cross that bridge when we come to it.
If you're not investing in a paid membership in an incorporated AzVJC club then you really don't have anything to complain about do you? What's the beef?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'Brian Hill'
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:29 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
The question is, why aren't you a ASA4WDC member already????
probably not
What happens next year when the ASAWDC says, we changed our minds, you need to have meetings and by-laws?
What then?!!!!
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:26 PM
To: David R. W. Withers; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Hi David,
I thought you were going away for awhile... What happened?
How about not telling me how to spend my money... If I want to spend it on AzVJC for a membership club I should be able to. I want to contribute to this club in that way.
If you don't want to participate then don't. Continue to be a member in the form you are now. Still sounds like everyone is welcome. Even You
Do you think it devalues your membership because there are those who are willing to contribute monetarily to the club and those who aren't?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
If you want to help out, give your money to those organized clubs.
-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@azvjc.org]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:53 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Joe,
I think you missed the point here. The idea is not to change the AzVJC
as it is, but in essence to create a 2nd club, a shadow club. The AzVJC
will remain unchanged, people will still come and go as they please,
there will still be no dues, no elections, no rules, just as it is now.
However, members of the AzVJC will have the OPTION to join the 2nd club
and the only requirement that is different is that they will need to pay
dues; in addition, the other "requirements" (ie. live in Az, own a Jeep)
will simply be enforced.
I agree that the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club does not need anything else.
However, offering the OPTION of joining a "Real" club that is a shadow
of the Az "Virtual" JC, I can only see this as a good thing for both the
individuals and our sport in general. Once again to be part of the
AzVJC, nothing changes. To join the shadow club, you simply need to pay
dues.
I thought alot about the name for the 2nd group. And even though the V
stands for "Virtual," I really think it should be the same name. Any
other name wouldn't fit right "Arizona Real Jeep Club", "Arizona Jeep
Club" and besides, then I'd have to create a whole new website
(www.AzRJC.org or www.AzJC.org).
Again this isn't an effort to ORGANIZE the AzVJC, it is an effort to
provide the membership of the AzVJC another OPTION. And I disagree that
the entire AzVJC membership would have to approve of such a thing, those
that don't approve or don't want to don't have to join the shadow club.
All we need is enough interest to see it through and enough initial
members to split the costs of incorporation.
I could even add a field to the Member Profiles called "Affiliated Club"
in which members could put whatever "real" club they belong to. I
suspect that alot of AzVJC members are members of the Az Lo-Rangers as
well.
The bottom line here is that I'm trying to make it easy for members of
the AzVJC to join and maintain membership of an "organized club." The
idea is to provide a webpage where they can pay their dues via PayPal
and be done with it. No meetings to attend no check to write and mail,
just an online payment. If the AzVJC shadow club doesn't interest
anyone, would the membership of the Az LowRangers perhaps be willing to
let our members join "On-Line" and pay their dues via PayPal? Since the
Az-Low Rangers rules are very similiar to the AzVJC's anyhow.
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
44370 From: David R. W. Withers <dr_ww@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:16pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Amen
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:02 PM
To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Hi Mike,
Splitting the group into two clubs will ultimately lead to the demise of
one or the other. I see absolutely no reason to become a "real" club or
have a mirror "real" club at all. Should we become real so we can be
regulated? Should we become real so we can have officers or pay dues?
I'm sorry, but the benefits of being virtual far outweigh the benefits
of being real. If you'd care to elaborate on the benefits you see to
being real; I'd be more than happy to have a nice debate with you.
As far as taking the AzVJC name... ABSOLUTELY NOT! If you want to
create a separate group, you create it with a completely different name
(unless of course, EVERYONE in the club agrees to allowing our name to
be used by this new offshoot group). Your suggestion of having people
join the Arizona LowRangers is a good one. If anyone craves reality,
this will be a good option for them and will ensure that any "real" club
remains absolutely separate.
You've done a good job with our webpage Mike... you've invested more
personal time than perhaps any other member of our club; for this, I
thank you. However, I believe your attempts to "organize" our group are
misguided and not at all in the interests of the majority of the people
in our club. This is yet another case of; if it ain't broke, don't fix
it.
The AZVJC isn't broke, and it doesn't need to be changed. I look
forward to our continued discussion...
Joe
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44371 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:18pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a good idea for
those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without everyone's
authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
separate, and must not be liked to our current website any more than any
other club currently is.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:54 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> This is exactly what I mean. IF you want to participate then do so
> (pay your dues, get the ASA4WDC membership, United Membership, and
> Land Use Permit), IF you do not want to participate then don't (no
> different than what you have now)
>
> - Mike
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe Kearney" <joe@j...> wrote:
> > If someone chooses not o participate then it would be just like the
> > club was before, no problem.
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44372 From: Brian Hill <brian@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:19pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
I just checked the copyright office and did not find the AzVJC logo copyrighted.
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe W
To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:01 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Hi Mike,
Splitting the group into two clubs will ultimately lead to the demise of one
or the other. I see absolutely no reason to become a "real" club or have a
mirror "real" club at all. Should we become real so we can be regulated?
Should we become real so we can have officers or pay dues? I'm sorry, but
the benefits of being virtual far outweigh the benefits of being real. If
you'd care to elaborate on the benefits you see to being real; I'd be more
than happy to have a nice debate with you.
As far as taking the AzVJC name... ABSOLUTELY NOT! If you want to create a
separate group, you create it with a completely different name (unless of
course, EVERYONE in the club agrees to allowing our name to be used by this
new offshoot group).
Your suggestion of having people join the Arizona LowRangers is a good one.
If anyone craves reality, this will be a good option for them and will
ensure that any "real" club remains absolutely separate.
You've done a good job with our webpage Mike... you've invested more
personal time than perhaps any other member of our club; for this, I thank
you. However, I believe your attempts to "organize" our group are misguided
and not at all in the interests of the majority of the people in our club.
This is yet another case of; if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
The AZVJC isn't broke, and it doesn't need to be changed. I look forward to
our continued discussion...
Joe
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44373 From: Joe Kearney <joe@j...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:24pm
Subject: More info
I have been following these threads a while now and even gave my opinion. I am in a little of a dilemma.
I have heard Mikes side and I have not heard too much from the people who do not want this.
I personally would like to have my opinion but I would like to hear both sides so I can get an educated (as much as I can be educated) opinion.
Can someone please try to put together both sides as unbiased as possible for all of us who have not been here before and have send this before.
I would like to hear both unbiased sides good and bad.
Joe Kearney
Joe@JRKearney.com
44374 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:19pm
Subject: RE: New poll for az_vjc
It's that time of the year... <grin>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:07 PM
> To: Virtual Jeep Club
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] New poll for az_vjc
>
>
> Oh no! Not this again!
>
> Chris K
>
> > From: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: 28 Feb 2002 17:33:12 -0000
> > To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [az_vjc] New poll for az_vjc
> >
> >
> > Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
> > az_vjc group:
> >
> > Would you be interested in Joining an
> > Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated?
> >
> > o Yes
> > o Maybe
> > o No
> >
> >
> > To vote, please visit the following web page:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/az_vjc/polls
> >
> > Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
> > not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
> > web site listed above.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44375 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:19pm
Subject: Re: Magazine Subscription at Expo
4wd and su. More to my harder core tastes and their tech articles tend to be
more useful. The problem I have w/ JU is that they've never seen a product
they don't love. As w/ most mags, they're probably not wanting to piss off
advertisers, but they seem to fall all over themselves to laud products.
Just my 2 cents.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "David R. W. Withers" <dr_ww@h...>
To: "'DougB'" <azjeep@c...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>; "'Gary Holmes'"
<niitoyis@w...>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:09 AM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Magazine Subscription at Expo
> So witch do you prefer to jp?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DougB [mailto:azjeep@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 7:45 AM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; Gary Holmes
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Magazine Subscription at Expo
>
>
> JP takes forever to get once you since up. They're not the most
> organized bunch. Took me about 3 months. I ended up dropping it, though.
> There are better mags out there.
>
> Doug
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gary Holmes" <niitoyis@w...>
> To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 7:32 AM
> Subject: [az_vjc] Magazine Subscription at Expo
>
>
> > Group:
> >
> > Did anyone besides me get sucked into a magazine subscription (in my
> > case to JP) as the Expo when they gave you a knife set as a gift for
> > signing up? I have yet to receive the magazine and was wondering if I
>
> > was the exception or the rule here.
> >
> > Gary Holmes
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44376 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:21pm
Subject: Re: AZVJC, how it has grown.
Sure is. We started with 6 of us from the J+W NG. the term 'exponential' comes to mind.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: David Withers
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:28 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] AZVJC, how it has grown.
When I first joined, there was right around 700 members. The start page had maybe 10 items on it, and they were all trails primarily. It's amazing how much we have grown in such a short time. For you older members (I'm not inferring age here) it must be all the more amazing.
David R. W. Withers
AKA Pink Unimog man
AKA the stupid guy who dared mention change
Desk: 480.551.4667
Mobile: 480.215.6992
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
44377 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:21pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs
Unfortunately, this club has grown so large that it may come to be this time. od I hope not!
Just like in the everything else, others come in and feel they need to change things to their liking without thinking of the roots of the group.
AZVJC was never started to be an organized anything. Please don't try to make it what it was never meant to be. If you want organization, go join one of the many clubs that are. Leave us alone. I like the club the way it is and so do many others.
Just my $.02
Chris K
From: "Joe W"
Reply-To:
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:54:02 -0700
To: "'Chatfield, Mike'" ,
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Organized Clubs
Mike,
Organization is in the air again.... and I suspect that once again, it shall be shot down completely.
There are enough organized clubs to join here in the valley if people want to join. The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer, and we already have a Webmaster who is doing a fantastic job .
The only way that this group will become an organized entity is if you can get every single member to vote for organization... and I hate to tell you this; but I'll never vote for it...put it to a vote and watch how badly it gets shot down.
If people want to belong to an organized group, go off and start your own organized group. Call it the Arizona Jeep Club or the Arizona Axlebreakers or whatever... but I suggest that people not get their hopes up to high for the AZVJC to EVER become organized.
Ta-Ta till next year's organizational pleas start anew...
Joe West
Long live Anarchy!
-----Original Message-----
From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@AzChatfield.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:29 AM
To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [az_vjc] Organized Clubs
To all of those that already belong to an organized club, you may now delete this message (or continue reading if you're curious).
For everyone here that is interested:
I talked to Sandee McCullen at the cleanup in January and have been trying to figure out a way to bring this up to the group. Well it looks like this may be the perfect time with all that has happened in the past day or so.
We can make the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club an incorporated club and become a member club of the Arizona State Association of 4WD Clubs WITHOUT organizing (at least not any more than we already have). Sandee said that we need three "officers" and bylaws, we don't have to have membership requirements, elections, "official" club runs. All the bylaws have to say is who the officers are, how new members join, and when we have meetings (even if it is never).
Here is the way it would work. As it is now, anyone can join the AzVJC via the website and post messages to the group, this WILL NOT change. What changes is, once someone has joined the AzVJC and gone on one run (so we can verify that they live in Arizona and HAVE a JEEP) then they can join the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated (AzVJC Inc). All they have to do is pay their dues for the year. If they want to drop out of the AzVJC Inc then they just don't pay the dues; it doesn't mean that they will be dropped from the website or mailing list. Nothing else changes... all we're doing is adding another option for our members.
Here is what I'm thinking for the incorporation:
For the three officers:
President - Responsible for turning in New Membership Information to ASA4WDC, attend ASA4WDC meetings. (I nominate DougB if he's interested)
Treasurer - Responsible for collecting money from members and paying ASA4WDC and Az State. (I nominate Jon Loveless, if he's interested, since he already does alot with stickers, etc...)
Webmaster - Responsible for maintaining the website and e-mail list.
How to become a New Member: 1. Join the AzVJC 2. Go on a run with the AzVJC (with at least one member of the AzVJC Inc present) 3. Pay Dues. That's it.
How to become a Non Member: 1. Don't pay your dues.
Meetings and Elections: None. If a club officer steps down, he/she chooses the replacement.
Dues: I am thinking since Az State has decided that clubs are only allowed 2 runs per month that we just include an individual permit in the cost of the dues for the year. This way members of the AzVJC Inc are double covered and they won't have to remember to get one every year (like me). Also included in the cost of dues would be ASA4WDC membership. Because of the incorporation, we'll likely have to start paying for the webspace (which we currently get for free) which is $21.25/month. We could also include things like paying to get rid of advertisements on Yahoo Groups, extra stickers to hand out at events, flyers, banners, etc... I estimate roughly $40/year which is right in line with most clubs.
The benefits are: 1. The AzVJC will be covered by the ASA4WDC million dollar insurance. 2. ASA4WDC and united will get more money to fight the eco-nazis. 3. The AzVJC will finally be recognized as the largest club at the ASA4WDC Jamboree :) 4. I'm sure there's more but my mind is drawing a blank.
The downside is: 1. Paying Dues. 2. There are no other downsides, other than paying dues, nothing changes, and you only have to pay dues if you want to (you just remain a member of AzVJC but not AzVJC Inc).
Does this make sense? I'll post a poll to find out how many may be interested. The initial start up costs will depend on the number of people starting the AzVJC Inc as incorporation can initially be expensive ($500?) ALSO, if anyone has been through the incorporation process before, we could use your assistance.
Thanks,
- Mike
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service .
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service .
44378 From: Robert McNeeley <robert.mcneeley@p...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:21pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Like they say...
The most effective way to cope with change is to help create it.
L. W. Lynett
Robert aka Fat Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
To: David R. W. Withers
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
David,
Already read it before joining. You think I didn't. Ha! You make a lot of assumptions for such a bright individual.
In life everything changes and evolves. This will happen to AzVJC too. Sorry you don't like it, but you don't have to. This won't hurt you a bit.
Don't look now but the response to the poll is about 50/50 with 16 percent undecided.
If you do it the way you've always done it, then you'll get what you've always got.
I like change... Change is good.
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'Brian Hill'
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
read the history of the club, and maybe you'll understand.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:48 PM
To: David R. W. Withers
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
No I'm not. I'm kinda new around here. Thought I found myself a home though. Not sure yet why I want to be a member of that organization yet, but I'll figure it out eventually. Newbies get a break on this don't they? You must be a big time member or you wouldn't be asking. Good for you! You should be proud.
I guess if the ASA4WDC changes it's mind next year then so be it. I'm sure that they'll miss both the revenue and ability to influence what we do at AzVJC inc. Let's cross that bridge when we come to it.
If you're not investing in a paid membership in an incorporated AzVJC club then you really don't have anything to complain about do you? What's the beef?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'Brian Hill'
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:29 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
The question is, why aren't you a ASA4WDC member already????
probably not
What happens next year when the ASAWDC says, we changed our minds, you need to have meetings and by-laws?
What then?!!!!
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:26 PM
To: David R. W. Withers; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Hi David,
I thought you were going away for awhile... What happened?
How about not telling me how to spend my money... If I want to spend it on AzVJC for a membership club I should be able to. I want to contribute to this club in that way.
If you don't want to participate then don't. Continue to be a member in the form you are now. Still sounds like everyone is welcome. Even You
Do you think it devalues your membership because there are those who are willing to contribute monetarily to the club and those who aren't?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
If you want to help out, give your money to those organized clubs.
-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@azvjc.org]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:53 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Joe,
I think you missed the point here. The idea is not to change the AzVJC
as it is, but in essence to create a 2nd club, a shadow club. The AzVJC
will remain unchanged, people will still come and go as they please,
there will still be no dues, no elections, no rules, just as it is now.
However, members of the AzVJC will have the OPTION to join the 2nd club
and the only requirement that is different is that they will need to pay
dues; in addition, the other "requirements" (ie. live in Az, own a Jeep)
will simply be enforced.
I agree that the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club does not need anything else.
However, offering the OPTION of joining a "Real" club that is a shadow
of the Az "Virtual" JC, I can only see this as a good thing for both the
individuals and our sport in general. Once again to be part of the
AzVJC, nothing changes. To join the shadow club, you simply need to pay
dues.
I thought alot about the name for the 2nd group. And even though the V
stands for "Virtual," I really think it should be the same name. Any
other name wouldn't fit right "Arizona Real Jeep Club", "Arizona Jeep
Club" and besides, then I'd have to create a whole new website
(www.AzRJC.org or www.AzJC.org).
Again this isn't an effort to ORGANIZE the AzVJC, it is an effort to
provide the membership of the AzVJC another OPTION. And I disagree that
the entire AzVJC membership would have to approve of such a thing, those
that don't approve or don't want to don't have to join the shadow club.
All we need is enough interest to see it through and enough initial
members to split the costs of incorporation.
I could even add a field to the Member Profiles called "Affiliated Club"
in which members could put whatever "real" club they belong to. I
suspect that alot of AzVJC members are members of the Az Lo-Rangers as
well.
The bottom line here is that I'm trying to make it easy for members of
the AzVJC to join and maintain membership of an "organized club." The
idea is to provide a webpage where they can pay their dues via PayPal
and be done with it. No meetings to attend no check to write and mail,
just an online payment. If the AzVJC shadow club doesn't interest
anyone, would the membership of the Az LowRangers perhaps be willing to
let our members join "On-Line" and pay their dues via PayPal? Since the
Az-Low Rangers rules are very similiar to the AzVJC's anyhow.
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
44379 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:22pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
And pay close attention to the number of people who have voted... pathetic isn't it? Mike's idea won't even get a SIMPLE majority of the total number of members... and we're not going to be making such decisions based on anything less... Is there anyone out here who believes we should make such a decision based on the wants of 2% of our membership? We'll see...
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
To: David R. W. Withers
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
David,
Already read it before joining. You think I didn't. Ha! You make a lot of assumptions for such a bright individual.
In life everything changes and evolves. This will happen to AzVJC too. Sorry you don't like it, but you don't have to. This won't hurt you a bit.
Don't look now but the response to the poll is about 50/50 with 16 percent undecided.
If you do it the way you've always done it, then you'll get what you've always got.
I like change... Change is good.
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'Brian Hill'
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
read the history of the club, and maybe you'll understand.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:48 PM
To: David R. W. Withers
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
No I'm not. I'm kinda new around here. Thought I found myself a home though. Not sure yet why I want to be a member of that organization yet, but I'll figure it out eventually. Newbies get a break on this don't they? You must be a big time member or you wouldn't be asking. Good for you! You should be proud.
I guess if the ASA4WDC changes it's mind next year then so be it. I'm sure that they'll miss both the revenue and ability to influence what we do at AzVJC inc. Let's cross that bridge when we come to it.
If you're not investing in a paid membership in an incorporated AzVJC club then you really don't have anything to complain about do you? What's the beef?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'Brian Hill'
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:29 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
The question is, why aren't you a ASA4WDC member already????
probably not
What happens next year when the ASAWDC says, we changed our minds, you need to have meetings and by-laws?
What then?!!!!
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:26 PM
To: David R. W. Withers; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Hi David,
I thought you were going away for awhile... What happened?
How about not telling me how to spend my money... If I want to spend it on AzVJC for a membership club I should be able to. I want to contribute to this club in that way.
If you don't want to participate then don't. Continue to be a member in the form you are now. Still sounds like everyone is welcome. Even You
Do you think it devalues your membership because there are those who are willing to contribute monetarily to the club and those who aren't?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
If you want to help out, give your money to those organized clubs.
-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@azvjc.org]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:53 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Joe,
I think you missed the point here. The idea is not to change the AzVJC
as it is, but in essence to create a 2nd club, a shadow club. The AzVJC
will remain unchanged, people will still come and go as they please,
there will still be no dues, no elections, no rules, just as it is now.
However, members of the AzVJC will have the OPTION to join the 2nd club
and the only requirement that is different is that they will need to pay
dues; in addition, the other "requirements" (ie. live in Az, own a Jeep)
will simply be enforced.
I agree that the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club does not need anything else.
However, offering the OPTION of joining a "Real" club that is a shadow
of the Az "Virtual" JC, I can only see this as a good thing for both the
individuals and our sport in general. Once again to be part of the
AzVJC, nothing changes. To join the shadow club, you simply need to pay
dues.
I thought alot about the name for the 2nd group. And even though the V
stands for "Virtual," I really think it should be the same name. Any
other name wouldn't fit right "Arizona Real Jeep Club", "Arizona Jeep
Club" and besides, then I'd have to create a whole new website
(www.AzRJC.org or www.AzJC.org).
Again this isn't an effort to ORGANIZE the AzVJC, it is an effort to
provide the membership of the AzVJC another OPTION. And I disagree that
the entire AzVJC membership would have to approve of such a thing, those
that don't approve or don't want to don't have to join the shadow club.
All we need is enough interest to see it through and enough initial
members to split the costs of incorporation.
I could even add a field to the Member Profiles called "Affiliated Club"
in which members could put whatever "real" club they belong to. I
suspect that alot of AzVJC members are members of the Az Lo-Rangers as
well.
The bottom line here is that I'm trying to make it easy for members of
the AzVJC to join and maintain membership of an "organized club." The
idea is to provide a webpage where they can pay their dues via PayPal
and be done with it. No meetings to attend no check to write and mail,
just an online payment. If the AzVJC shadow club doesn't interest
anyone, would the membership of the Az LowRangers perhaps be willing to
let our members join "On-Line" and pay their dues via PayPal? Since the
Az-Low Rangers rules are very similiar to the AzVJC's anyhow.
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
44380 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:22pm
Subject: Re: Motor mount question
Don't have to but it's a good time to.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "jeepfanatic97" <itsajeepthing@a...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:52 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Motor mount question
> quick question for anyone that has done a MM Lift....are you
> required/advised to do a body lift at the same time? I'm getting my
> lift the second week of march (4 inch tera) but its going to be about
> another month after that before I can do an SYE, and i'm trying to
> keep drive line vibes down until then.
>
> Thanks for the help
>
> Rob
> 97 TJ
> 4.0 5 speed
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44381 From: jeepin_in_az <jeepin_in_az@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:24pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs
OK, when I voted an hour ago, I went with maybe. I just changed it
to no. If I want to "pay my dues", I will join the ASA4WDC as an
individual, and if I feel it nessasary to attend meetings, I will
join a local club. The VJC is working PERFECT as it is, no need to
change. This is a VIRTUAL club, and let it be that. If you feel you
need to belong to another "official" club, do it, no body is holding
you back. Why can't you be in 2 clubs at once? There are quite a
few VJC members that also belong to the Lo Rangers already. Does it
seem to cause a conflict now? NO it does not.
The word "you" that was used in the above paragraph, was used
generally, not to anyone specifically
Mike Baney, with my 2 cents.
In az_vjc@y..., "Brian Hill" <brian@a...> wrote:
> I just checked the copyright office and did not find the AzVJC logo
copyrighted.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joe W
> To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@y...
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:01 PM
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> Splitting the group into two clubs will ultimately lead to the
demise of one
> or the other. I see absolutely no reason to become a "real" club
or have a
> mirror "real" club at all. Should we become real so we can be
regulated?
> Should we become real so we can have officers or pay dues? I'm
sorry, but
> the benefits of being virtual far outweigh the benefits of being
real. If
> you'd care to elaborate on the benefits you see to being real;
I'd be more
> than happy to have a nice debate with you.
>
> As far as taking the AzVJC name... ABSOLUTELY NOT! If you want
to create a
> separate group, you create it with a completely different name
(unless of
> course, EVERYONE in the club agrees to allowing our name to be
used by this
> new offshoot group).
> Your suggestion of having people join the Arizona LowRangers is a
good one.
> If anyone craves reality, this will be a good option for them and
will
> ensure that any "real" club remains absolutely separate.
>
> You've done a good job with our webpage Mike... you've invested
more
> personal time than perhaps any other member of our club; for
this, I thank
> you. However, I believe your attempts to "organize" our group
are misguided
> and not at all in the interests of the majority of the people in
our club.
> This is yet another case of; if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
>
> The AZVJC isn't broke, and it doesn't need to be changed. I look
forward to
> our continued discussion...
>
> Joe
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44382 From: Brian Hill <brian@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:26pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
It will happen here eventually, Better start callin' all your friends to get 'em to vote in the poll. Oh no, someone might actually contribute to the club, God knows we can't have that! Let's just use Mike to keep our website. Talk about Take, take, take.... gheesh!
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe W
To: 'Brian Hill' ; 'David R. W. Withers' ; 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:12 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Hi Brian,
If it turns out that you want to spend your money on a real club, feel free... try the Arizona LowRangers, I hear that they are a good group of guys and gals.
I will suggest that you don't get your hopes up too high for a separate group with the AZVJC name though... cause it isn't going to happen.
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:26 PM
To: David R. W. Withers; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Hi David,
I thought you were going away for awhile... What happened?
How about not telling me how to spend my money... If I want to spend it on AzVJC for a membership club I should be able to. I want to contribute to this club in that way.
If you don't want to participate then don't. Continue to be a member in the form you are now. Still sounds like everyone is welcome. Even You
Do you think it devalues your membership because there are those who are willing to contribute monetarily to the club and those who aren't?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
If you want to help out, give your money to those organized clubs.
-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@azvjc.org]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:53 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Joe,
I think you missed the point here. The idea is not to change the AzVJC
as it is, but in essence to create a 2nd club, a shadow club. The AzVJC
will remain unchanged, people will still come and go as they please,
there will still be no dues, no elections, no rules, just as it is now.
However, members of the AzVJC will have the OPTION to join the 2nd club
and the only requirement that is different is that they will need to pay
dues; in addition, the other "requirements" (ie. live in Az, own a Jeep)
will simply be enforced.
I agree that the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club does not need anything else.
However, offering the OPTION of joining a "Real" club that is a shadow
of the Az "Virtual" JC, I can only see this as a good thing for both the
individuals and our sport in general. Once again to be part of the
AzVJC, nothing changes. To join the shadow club, you simply need to pay
dues.
I thought alot about the name for the 2nd group. And even though the V
stands for "Virtual," I really think it should be the same name. Any
other name wouldn't fit right "Arizona Real Jeep Club", "Arizona Jeep
Club" and besides, then I'd have to create a whole new website
(www.AzRJC.org or www.AzJC.org).
Again this isn't an effort to ORGANIZE the AzVJC, it is an effort to
provide the membership of the AzVJC another OPTION. And I disagree that
the entire AzVJC membership would have to approve of such a thing, those
that don't approve or don't want to don't have to join the shadow club.
All we need is enough interest to see it through and enough initial
members to split the costs of incorporation.
I could even add a field to the Member Profiles called "Affiliated Club"
in which members could put whatever "real" club they belong to. I
suspect that alot of AzVJC members are members of the Az Lo-Rangers as
well.
The bottom line here is that I'm trying to make it easy for members of
the AzVJC to join and maintain membership of an "organized club." The
idea is to provide a webpage where they can pay their dues via PayPal
and be done with it. No meetings to attend no check to write and mail,
just an online payment. If the AzVJC shadow club doesn't interest
anyone, would the membership of the Az LowRangers perhaps be willing to
let our members join "On-Line" and pay their dues via PayPal? Since the
Az-Low Rangers rules are very similiar to the AzVJC's anyhow.
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
44383 From: Joe Kearney <joe@j...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:30pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Joe,
I am holding my opinions for all of the unbiased (hopefully) information.
Joe Kearney
Joe@JRKearney.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@cox.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:23 PM
To: 'Brian Hill'; 'David R. W. Withers'
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
And pay close attention to the number of people who have voted... pathetic isn't it? Mike's idea won't even get a SIMPLE majority of the total number of members... and we're not going to be making such decisions based on anything less... Is there anyone out here who believes we should make such a decision based on the wants of 2% of our membership? We'll see...
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
To: David R. W. Withers
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
David,
Already read it before joining. You think I didn't. Ha! You make a lot of assumptions for such a bright individual.
In life everything changes and evolves. This will happen to AzVJC too. Sorry you don't like it, but you don't have to. This won't hurt you a bit.
Don't look now but the response to the poll is about 50/50 with 16 percent undecided.
If you do it the way you've always done it, then you'll get what you've always got.
I like change... Change is good.
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'Brian Hill'
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
read the history of the club, and maybe you'll understand.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:48 PM
To: David R. W. Withers
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
No I'm not. I'm kinda new around here. Thought I found myself a home though. Not sure yet why I want to be a member of that organization yet, but I'll figure it out eventually. Newbies get a break on this don't they? You must be a big time member or you wouldn't be asking. Good for you! You should be proud.
I guess if the ASA4WDC changes it's mind next year then so be it. I'm sure that they'll miss both the revenue and ability to influence what we do at AzVJC inc. Let's cross that bridge when we come to it.
If you're not investing in a paid membership in an incorporated AzVJC club then you really don't have anything to complain about do you? What's the beef?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'Brian Hill'
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:29 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
The question is, why aren't you a ASA4WDC member already????
probably not
What happens next year when the ASAWDC says, we changed our minds, you need to have meetings and by-laws?
What then?!!!!
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:26 PM
To: David R. W. Withers; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Hi David,
I thought you were going away for awhile... What happened?
How about not telling me how to spend my money... If I want to spend it on AzVJC for a membership club I should be able to. I want to contribute to this club in that way.
If you don't want to participate then don't. Continue to be a member in the form you are now. Still sounds like everyone is welcome. Even You
Do you think it devalues your membership because there are those who are willing to contribute monetarily to the club and those who aren't?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
If you want to help out, give your money to those organized clubs.
-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@azvjc.org]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:53 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Joe,
I think you missed the point here. The idea is not to change the AzVJC
as it is, but in essence to create a 2nd club, a shadow club. The AzVJC
will remain unchanged, people will still come and go as they please,
there will still be no dues, no elections, no rules, just as it is now.
However, members of the AzVJC will have the OPTION to join the 2nd club
and the only requirement that is different is that they will need to pay
dues; in addition, the other "requirements" (ie. live in Az, own a Jeep)
will simply be enforced.
I agree that the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club does not need anything else.
However, offering the OPTION of joining a "Real" club that is a shadow
of the Az "Virtual" JC, I can only see this as a good thing for both the
individuals and our sport in general. Once again to be part of the
AzVJC, nothing changes. To join the shadow club, you simply need to pay
dues.
I thought alot about the name for the 2nd group. And even though the V
stands for "Virtual," I really think it should be the same name. Any
other name wouldn't fit right "Arizona Real Jeep Club", "Arizona Jeep
Club" and besides, then I'd have to create a whole new website
(www.AzRJC.org or www.AzJC.org).
Again this isn't an effort to ORGANIZE the AzVJC, it is an effort to
provide the membership of the AzVJC another OPTION. And I disagree that
the entire AzVJC membership would have to approve of such a thing, those
that don't approve or don't want to don't have to join the shadow club.
All we need is enough interest to see it through and enough initial
members to split the costs of incorporation.
I could even add a field to the Member Profiles called "Affiliated Club"
in which members could put whatever "real" club they belong to. I
suspect that alot of AzVJC members are members of the Az Lo-Rangers as
well.
The bottom line here is that I'm trying to make it easy for members of
the AzVJC to join and maintain membership of an "organized club." The
idea is to provide a webpage where they can pay their dues via PayPal
and be done with it. No meetings to attend no check to write and mail,
just an online payment. If the AzVJC shadow club doesn't interest
anyone, would the membership of the Az LowRangers perhaps be willing to
let our members join "On-Line" and pay their dues via PayPal? Since the
Az-Low Rangers rules are very similiar to the AzVJC's anyhow.
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
44384 From: David R. W. Withers <dr_ww@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:24pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
to threaten a group is the worst way to get people to follow you.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:19 PM
To: arizonajeep@cox.net; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
I just checked the copyright office and did not find the AzVJC logo copyrighted.
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe W
To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:01 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Hi Mike,
Splitting the group into two clubs will ultimately lead to the demise of one
or the other. I see absolutely no reason to become a "real" club or have a
mirror "real" club at all. Should we become real so we can be regulated?
Should we become real so we can have officers or pay dues? I'm sorry, but
the benefits of being virtual far outweigh the benefits of being real. If
you'd care to elaborate on the benefits you see to being real; I'd be more
than happy to have a nice debate with you.
As far as taking the AzVJC name... ABSOLUTELY NOT! If you want to create a
separate group, you create it with a completely different name (unless of
course, EVERYONE in the club agrees to allowing our name to be used by this
new offshoot group).
Your suggestion of having people join the Arizona LowRangers is a good one.
If anyone craves reality, this will be a good option for them and will
ensure that any "real" club remains absolutely separate.
You've done a good job with our webpage Mike... you've invested more
personal time than perhaps any other member of our club; for this, I thank
you. However, I believe your attempts to "organize" our group are misguided
and not at all in the interests of the majority of the people in our club.
This is yet another case of; if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
The AZVJC isn't broke, and it doesn't need to be changed. I look forward to
our continued discussion...
Joe
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
44360 From: Joe Kearney <joe@j...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:01pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
OK I think that this takes the prize for the longest thread.
What do ya think?
Joe Kearney
Joe@J...
-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:50 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
If there appears to be enough interest, I'll set something up.
The poll will end after one Week (on March 7th) we'll see what the
interest is then.
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Brian Hill" <brian@a...> wrote:
> Hi Mike,
>
> Will there be a signup sheet for those interested who would
participate? There are probably a lot of people out here like me who
would buy into this. If there is a signup area will it be made public
so we can see who does want to participate? There are probably a lot
of conventional thinkers who are just lurking that may sign up.
>
> ~B~
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: az_jeeper_mike
> To: az_vjc@y...
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:52 PM
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Joe,
>
> I think you missed the point here. The idea is not to change the
> AzVJC as it is, but in essence to create a 2nd club, a shadow
club.
> The AzVJC will remain unchanged, people will still come and go as
> they please, there will still be no dues, no elections, no rules,
> just as it is now. However, members of the AzVJC will have the
> OPTION to join the 2nd club and the only requirement that is
> different is that they will need to pay dues; in addition, the
> other "requirements" (ie. live in Az, own a Jeep) will simply be
> enforced.
>
> I agree that the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club does not need anything
> else. However, offering the OPTION of joining a "Real" club that
is a
> shadow of the Az "Virtual" JC, I can only see this as a good
thing
> for both the individuals and our sport in general. Once again to
be
> part of the AzVJC, nothing changes. To join the shadow club, you
> simply need to pay dues.
>
> I thought alot about the name for the 2nd group. And even though
the
> V stands for "Virtual," I really think it should be the same
name.
> Any other name wouldn't fit right "Arizona Real Jeep
Club", "Arizona
> Jeep Club" and besides, then I'd have to create a whole new
website
> (www.AzRJC.org or www.AzJC.org).
>
> Again this isn't an effort to ORGANIZE the AzVJC, it is an effort
to
> provide the membership of the AzVJC another OPTION. And I
disagree
> that the entire AzVJC membership would have to approve of such a
> thing, those that don't approve or don't want to don't have to
join
> the shadow club. All we need is enough interest to see it
through
> and enough initial members to split the costs of incorporation.
>
> I could even add a field to the Member Profiles
called "Affiliated
> Club" in which members could put whatever "real" club they belong
to.
> I suspect that alot of AzVJC members are members of the Az Lo-
Rangers
> as well.
>
> The bottom line here is that I'm trying to make it easy for
members
> of the AzVJC to join and maintain membership of an "organized
club."
> The idea is to provide a webpage where they can pay their dues
via
> PayPal and be done with it. No meetings to attend no check to
write
> and mail, just an online payment. If the AzVJC shadow club
doesn't
> interest anyone, would the membership of the Az LowRangers
perhaps be
> willing to let our members join "On-Line" and pay their dues via
> PayPal? Since the Az-Low Rangers rules are very similiar to the
> AzVJC's anyhow.
>
> - Mike
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer...
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVERTISEMENT
44361 From: David R. W. Withers <dr_ww@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 0:59pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
read the history of the club, and maybe you'll understand.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:48 PM
To: David R. W. Withers
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
No I'm not. I'm kinda new around here. Thought I found myself a home though. Not sure yet why I want to be a member of that organization yet, but I'll figure it out eventually. Newbies get a break on this don't they? You must be a big time member or you wouldn't be asking. Good for you! You should be proud.
I guess if the ASA4WDC changes it's mind next year then so be it. I'm sure that they'll miss both the revenue and ability to influence what we do at AzVJC inc. Let's cross that bridge when we come to it.
If you're not investing in a paid membership in an incorporated AzVJC club then you really don't have anything to complain about do you? What's the beef?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'Brian Hill'
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:29 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
The question is, why aren't you a ASA4WDC member already????
probably not
What happens next year when the ASAWDC says, we changed our minds, you need to have meetings and by-laws?
What then?!!!!
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:26 PM
To: David R. W. Withers; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Hi David,
I thought you were going away for awhile... What happened?
How about not telling me how to spend my money... If I want to spend it on AzVJC for a membership club I should be able to. I want to contribute to this club in that way.
If you don't want to participate then don't. Continue to be a member in the form you are now. Still sounds like everyone is welcome. Even You
Do you think it devalues your membership because there are those who are willing to contribute monetarily to the club and those who aren't?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
If you want to help out, give your money to those organized clubs.
-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@azvjc.org]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:53 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Joe,
I think you missed the point here. The idea is not to change the AzVJC
as it is, but in essence to create a 2nd club, a shadow club. The AzVJC
will remain unchanged, people will still come and go as they please,
there will still be no dues, no elections, no rules, just as it is now.
However, members of the AzVJC will have the OPTION to join the 2nd club
and the only requirement that is different is that they will need to pay
dues; in addition, the other "requirements" (ie. live in Az, own a Jeep)
will simply be enforced.
I agree that the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club does not need anything else.
However, offering the OPTION of joining a "Real" club that is a shadow
of the Az "Virtual" JC, I can only see this as a good thing for both the
individuals and our sport in general. Once again to be part of the
AzVJC, nothing changes. To join the shadow club, you simply need to pay
dues.
I thought alot about the name for the 2nd group. And even though the V
stands for "Virtual," I really think it should be the same name. Any
other name wouldn't fit right "Arizona Real Jeep Club", "Arizona Jeep
Club" and besides, then I'd have to create a whole new website
(www.AzRJC.org or www.AzJC.org).
Again this isn't an effort to ORGANIZE the AzVJC, it is an effort to
provide the membership of the AzVJC another OPTION. And I disagree that
the entire AzVJC membership would have to approve of such a thing, those
that don't approve or don't want to don't have to join the shadow club.
All we need is enough interest to see it through and enough initial
members to split the costs of incorporation.
I could even add a field to the Member Profiles called "Affiliated Club"
in which members could put whatever "real" club they belong to. I
suspect that alot of AzVJC members are members of the Az Lo-Rangers as
well.
The bottom line here is that I'm trying to make it easy for members of
the AzVJC to join and maintain membership of an "organized club." The
idea is to provide a webpage where they can pay their dues via PayPal
and be done with it. No meetings to attend no check to write and mail,
just an online payment. If the AzVJC shadow club doesn't interest
anyone, would the membership of the Az LowRangers perhaps be willing to
let our members join "On-Line" and pay their dues via PayPal? Since the
Az-Low Rangers rules are very similiar to the AzVJC's anyhow.
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44362 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:01pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Hi Mike,
Splitting the group into two clubs will ultimately lead to the demise of one
or the other. I see absolutely no reason to become a "real" club or have a
mirror "real" club at all. Should we become real so we can be regulated?
Should we become real so we can have officers or pay dues? I'm sorry, but
the benefits of being virtual far outweigh the benefits of being real. If
you'd care to elaborate on the benefits you see to being real; I'd be more
than happy to have a nice debate with you.
As far as taking the AzVJC name... ABSOLUTELY NOT! If you want to create a
separate group, you create it with a completely different name (unless of
course, EVERYONE in the club agrees to allowing our name to be used by this
new offshoot group).
Your suggestion of having people join the Arizona LowRangers is a good one.
If anyone craves reality, this will be a good option for them and will
ensure that any "real" club remains absolutely separate.
You've done a good job with our webpage Mike... you've invested more
personal time than perhaps any other member of our club; for this, I thank
you. However, I believe your attempts to "organize" our group are misguided
and not at all in the interests of the majority of the people in our club.
This is yet another case of; if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
The AZVJC isn't broke, and it doesn't need to be changed. I look forward to
our continued discussion...
Joe
>
44363 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:07pm
Subject: Re: New poll for az_vjc
Oh no! Not this again!
Chris K
> From: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Date: 28 Feb 2002 17:33:12 -0000
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] New poll for az_vjc
>
>
> Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
> az_vjc group:
>
> Would you be interested in Joining an
> Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated?
>
> o Yes
> o Maybe
> o No
>
>
> To vote, please visit the following web page:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/az_vjc/polls
>
> Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
> not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
> web site listed above.
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44364 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:08pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
David,
This is something that isn't going to happen. Don't take your stickers
off... <grin>
The really cool thing about this club is that most of the people who
actually participate in club activities feel the same way that we do.
If Mike creates a sign-up sheet for this new "real" club, he will have to
keep it completely separate from our clubs activities and web page... if
there are indeed a bunch of "conventional" thinkers out in AZVJC land who
think that Mike's idea is a good one, they can join the Arizona Jeep Club or
whatever Mike decides to call it, and they can go on their Merry way.
Hang tight David; we've been through this many times and the crash and burn
phase will happen soon.
Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David R. W. Withers [mailto:dr_ww@h...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:09 PM
> To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> If you want to help out, give your money to those organized clubs.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:53 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Joe,
>
> I think you missed the point here. The idea is not to change
> the AzVJC
> as it is, but in essence to create a 2nd club, a shadow club.
> The AzVJC
> will remain unchanged, people will still come and go as they please,
> there will still be no dues, no elections, no rules, just as
> it is now.
> However, members of the AzVJC will have the OPTION to join
> the 2nd club
> and the only requirement that is different is that they will
> need to pay
> dues; in addition, the other "requirements" (ie. live in Az,
> own a Jeep)
> will simply be enforced.
>
> I agree that the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club does not need
> anything else.
> However, offering the OPTION of joining a "Real" club that is a shadow
> of the Az "Virtual" JC, I can only see this as a good thing
> for both the
> individuals and our sport in general. Once again to be part of the
> AzVJC, nothing changes. To join the shadow club, you simply
> need to pay
> dues.
>
> I thought alot about the name for the 2nd group. And even
> though the V
> stands for "Virtual," I really think it should be the same name. Any
> other name wouldn't fit right "Arizona Real Jeep Club", "Arizona Jeep
> Club" and besides, then I'd have to create a whole new website
> (www.AzRJC.org or www.AzJC.org).
>
> Again this isn't an effort to ORGANIZE the AzVJC, it is an effort to
> provide the membership of the AzVJC another OPTION. And I
> disagree that
> the entire AzVJC membership would have to approve of such a
> thing, those
> that don't approve or don't want to don't have to join the
> shadow club.
> All we need is enough interest to see it through and enough initial
> members to split the costs of incorporation.
>
> I could even add a field to the Member Profiles called
> "Affiliated Club"
> in which members could put whatever "real" club they belong to. I
> suspect that alot of AzVJC members are members of the Az Lo-Rangers as
> well.
>
> The bottom line here is that I'm trying to make it easy for members of
> the AzVJC to join and maintain membership of an "organized club." The
> idea is to provide a webpage where they can pay their dues via PayPal
> and be done with it. No meetings to attend no check to write
> and mail,
> just an online payment. If the AzVJC shadow club doesn't interest
> anyone, would the membership of the Az LowRangers perhaps be
> willing to
> let our members join "On-Line" and pay their dues via PayPal?
> Since the
> Az-Low Rangers rules are very similiar to the AzVJC's anyhow.
>
> - Mike
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> > The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer...
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44365 From: Casper <casper@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:08pm
Subject: Joe/FlexyXJ is the MAN!!!
44366 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:12pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Hi Brian,
If it turns out that you want to spend your money on a real club, feel free... try the Arizona LowRangers, I hear that they are a good group of guys and gals.
I will suggest that you don't get your hopes up too high for a separate group with the AZVJC name though... cause it isn't going to happen.
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:26 PM
To: David R. W. Withers; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Hi David,
I thought you were going away for awhile... What happened?
How about not telling me how to spend my money... If I want to spend it on AzVJC for a membership club I should be able to. I want to contribute to this club in that way.
If you don't want to participate then don't. Continue to be a member in the form you are now. Still sounds like everyone is welcome. Even You
Do you think it devalues your membership because there are those who are willing to contribute monetarily to the club and those who aren't?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
If you want to help out, give your money to those organized clubs.
-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@azvjc.org]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:53 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Joe,
I think you missed the point here. The idea is not to change the AzVJC
as it is, but in essence to create a 2nd club, a shadow club. The AzVJC
will remain unchanged, people will still come and go as they please,
there will still be no dues, no elections, no rules, just as it is now.
However, members of the AzVJC will have the OPTION to join the 2nd club
and the only requirement that is different is that they will need to pay
dues; in addition, the other "requirements" (ie. live in Az, own a Jeep)
will simply be enforced.
I agree that the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club does not need anything else.
However, offering the OPTION of joining a "Real" club that is a shadow
of the Az "Virtual" JC, I can only see this as a good thing for both the
individuals and our sport in general. Once again to be part of the
AzVJC, nothing changes. To join the shadow club, you simply need to pay
dues.
I thought alot about the name for the 2nd group. And even though the V
stands for "Virtual," I really think it should be the same name. Any
other name wouldn't fit right "Arizona Real Jeep Club", "Arizona Jeep
Club" and besides, then I'd have to create a whole new website
(www.AzRJC.org or www.AzJC.org).
Again this isn't an effort to ORGANIZE the AzVJC, it is an effort to
provide the membership of the AzVJC another OPTION. And I disagree that
the entire AzVJC membership would have to approve of such a thing, those
that don't approve or don't want to don't have to join the shadow club.
All we need is enough interest to see it through and enough initial
members to split the costs of incorporation.
I could even add a field to the Member Profiles called "Affiliated Club"
in which members could put whatever "real" club they belong to. I
suspect that alot of AzVJC members are members of the Az Lo-Rangers as
well.
The bottom line here is that I'm trying to make it easy for members of
the AzVJC to join and maintain membership of an "organized club." The
idea is to provide a webpage where they can pay their dues via PayPal
and be done with it. No meetings to attend no check to write and mail,
just an online payment. If the AzVJC shadow club doesn't interest
anyone, would the membership of the Az LowRangers perhaps be willing to
let our members join "On-Line" and pay their dues via PayPal? Since the
Az-Low Rangers rules are very similiar to the AzVJC's anyhow.
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
44367 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:14pm
Subject: Re: ot: Ultimate Fantasy
LMAO - Its great to talk about something other than the "O" word in the other threads.
Chris
From: Gary Holmes
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:39:16 -0700
To: Mike & Karen Acuna
Cc: AZVJC AZVJC
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ot: Ultimate Fantasy
Great Mike! Or did this come from your wife?
Gary Holmes
Mike & Karen Acuna wrote:
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:
Fwd: [Fw: Ultimate Fantasy]
From:
Rebecca Ayers
Date:
28 Feb 2002 10:30:30 EST
To:
mike karen acuna
__________________________________________________ __________________
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:
Fw: Ultimate Fantasy
From:
"MARILYN PERROTTA"
Date:
Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:58:42 -0800
To:
"Barbara&Joe Perrotta" , "Darlene Chang" , "Debbie England" , "Donna Brotherton" , "Charles D. Hein Jr" , "Juanita-Becky" , "MIKEL&KATHERINE Eisenbeis" , "SM Milam"
: Ultimate Fantasy
A Woman's Ultimate Fantasy
In a recent Harris On-line poll 38,562 men across the US
were asked to identify a woman's ultimate fantasy. 97.8%
of the respondents said that a woman's ultimate fantasy
is to have two men at once.
While this has been verified by a recent sociological study,
it appears that most men do not realize that in this fantasy,
one man is cooking and the other is cleaning.
44368 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:15pm
Subject: Re: Organized Club...
BAH!
From: "Chatfield, Mike"
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:15:16 -0700
To: "'AZ_VJC@YahooGroups.com'"
Subject: [az_vjc] Organized Club...
2nd try, this didn't go through the first time...
To all of those that already belong to an organized club, you may now delete this message (or continue reading if you're curious).
For everyone here that is interested:
I talked to Sandee McCullen at the cleanup in January and have been trying to figure out a way to bring this up to the group. Well it looks like this may be the perfect time with all that has happened in the past day or so.
We can make the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club an incorporated club and become a member club of the Arizona State Association of 4WD Clubs WITHOUT organizing (at least not any more than we already have). Sandee said that we need three "officers" and bylaws, we don't have to have membership requirements, elections, "official" club runs. All the bylaws have to say is who the officers are, how new members join, and when we have meetings (even if it is never).
Here is the way it would work. As it is now, anyone can join the AzVJC via the website and post messages to the group, this WILL NOT change. What changes is, once someone has joined the AzVJC and gone on one run (so we can verify that they live in Arizona and HAVE a JEEP) then they can join the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated (AzVJC Inc). All they have to do is pay their dues for the year. If they want to drop out of the AzVJC Inc then they just don't pay the dues; it doesn't mean that they will be dropped from the website or mailing list. Nothing else changes... all we're doing is adding another option for our members.
Here is what I'm thinking for the incorporation:
For the three officers:
President - Responsible for turning in New Membership Information to ASA4WDC, attend ASA4WDC meetings. (I nominate DougB if he's interested)
Treasurer - Responsible for collecting money from members and paying ASA4WDC and Az State. (I nominate Jon Loveless, if he's interested, since he already does alot with stickers, etc...)
Webmaster - Responsible for maintaining the website and e-mail list.
How to become a New Member: 1. Join the AzVJC 2. Go on a run with the AzVJC (with at least one member of the AzVJC Inc present) 3. Pay Dues. That's it.
How to become a Non Member: 1. Don't pay your dues.
Meetings and Elections: None. If a club officer steps down, he/she chooses the replacement.
Dues: I am thinking since Az State has decided that clubs are only allowed 2 runs per month that we just include an individual permit in the cost of the dues for the year. This way members of the AzVJC Inc are double covered and they won't have to remember to get one every year (like me). Also included in the cost of dues would be ASA4WDC membership. Because of the incorporation, we'll likely have to start paying for the webspace (which we currently get for free) which is $21.25/month. We could also include things like paying to get rid of advertisements on Yahoo Groups, extra stickers to hand out at events, flyers, banners, etc... I estimate roughly $40/year which is right in line with most clubs.
The benefits are: 1. The AzVJC will be covered by the ASA4WDC million dollar insurance. 2. ASA4WDC and united will get more money to fight the eco-nazis. 3. The AzVJC will finally be recognized as the largest club at the ASA4WDC Jamboree :) 4. I'm sure there's more but my mind is drawing a blank.
The downside is: 1. Paying Dues. 2. There are no other downsides, other than paying dues, nothing changes, and you only have to pay dues if you want to (you just remain a member of AzVJC but not AzVJC Inc).
Does this make sense? I'll post a poll to find out how many may be interested. The initial start up costs will depend on the number of people starting the AzVJC Inc as incorporation can initially be expensive ($500?) ALSO, if anyone has been through the incorporation process before, we could use your assistance.
Thanks,
- Mike
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service .
44369 From: Brian Hill <brian@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:17pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
David,
Already read it before joining. You think I didn't. Ha! You make a lot of assumptions for such a bright individual.
In life everything changes and evolves. This will happen to AzVJC too. Sorry you don't like it, but you don't have to. This won't hurt you a bit.
Don't look now but the response to the poll is about 50/50 with 16 percent undecided.
If you do it the way you've always done it, then you'll get what you've always got.
I like change... Change is good.
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'Brian Hill'
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
read the history of the club, and maybe you'll understand.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:48 PM
To: David R. W. Withers
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
No I'm not. I'm kinda new around here. Thought I found myself a home though. Not sure yet why I want to be a member of that organization yet, but I'll figure it out eventually. Newbies get a break on this don't they? You must be a big time member or you wouldn't be asking. Good for you! You should be proud.
I guess if the ASA4WDC changes it's mind next year then so be it. I'm sure that they'll miss both the revenue and ability to influence what we do at AzVJC inc. Let's cross that bridge when we come to it.
If you're not investing in a paid membership in an incorporated AzVJC club then you really don't have anything to complain about do you? What's the beef?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'Brian Hill'
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:29 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
The question is, why aren't you a ASA4WDC member already????
probably not
What happens next year when the ASAWDC says, we changed our minds, you need to have meetings and by-laws?
What then?!!!!
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:26 PM
To: David R. W. Withers; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Hi David,
I thought you were going away for awhile... What happened?
How about not telling me how to spend my money... If I want to spend it on AzVJC for a membership club I should be able to. I want to contribute to this club in that way.
If you don't want to participate then don't. Continue to be a member in the form you are now. Still sounds like everyone is welcome. Even You
Do you think it devalues your membership because there are those who are willing to contribute monetarily to the club and those who aren't?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
If you want to help out, give your money to those organized clubs.
-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@azvjc.org]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:53 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Joe,
I think you missed the point here. The idea is not to change the AzVJC
as it is, but in essence to create a 2nd club, a shadow club. The AzVJC
will remain unchanged, people will still come and go as they please,
there will still be no dues, no elections, no rules, just as it is now.
However, members of the AzVJC will have the OPTION to join the 2nd club
and the only requirement that is different is that they will need to pay
dues; in addition, the other "requirements" (ie. live in Az, own a Jeep)
will simply be enforced.
I agree that the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club does not need anything else.
However, offering the OPTION of joining a "Real" club that is a shadow
of the Az "Virtual" JC, I can only see this as a good thing for both the
individuals and our sport in general. Once again to be part of the
AzVJC, nothing changes. To join the shadow club, you simply need to pay
dues.
I thought alot about the name for the 2nd group. And even though the V
stands for "Virtual," I really think it should be the same name. Any
other name wouldn't fit right "Arizona Real Jeep Club", "Arizona Jeep
Club" and besides, then I'd have to create a whole new website
(www.AzRJC.org or www.AzJC.org).
Again this isn't an effort to ORGANIZE the AzVJC, it is an effort to
provide the membership of the AzVJC another OPTION. And I disagree that
the entire AzVJC membership would have to approve of such a thing, those
that don't approve or don't want to don't have to join the shadow club.
All we need is enough interest to see it through and enough initial
members to split the costs of incorporation.
I could even add a field to the Member Profiles called "Affiliated Club"
in which members could put whatever "real" club they belong to. I
suspect that alot of AzVJC members are members of the Az Lo-Rangers as
well.
The bottom line here is that I'm trying to make it easy for members of
the AzVJC to join and maintain membership of an "organized club." The
idea is to provide a webpage where they can pay their dues via PayPal
and be done with it. No meetings to attend no check to write and mail,
just an online payment. If the AzVJC shadow club doesn't interest
anyone, would the membership of the Az LowRangers perhaps be willing to
let our members join "On-Line" and pay their dues via PayPal? Since the
Az-Low Rangers rules are very similiar to the AzVJC's anyhow.
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
44370 From: David R. W. Withers <dr_ww@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:16pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Amen
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@c...]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:02 PM
To: 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Hi Mike,
Splitting the group into two clubs will ultimately lead to the demise of
one or the other. I see absolutely no reason to become a "real" club or
have a mirror "real" club at all. Should we become real so we can be
regulated? Should we become real so we can have officers or pay dues?
I'm sorry, but the benefits of being virtual far outweigh the benefits
of being real. If you'd care to elaborate on the benefits you see to
being real; I'd be more than happy to have a nice debate with you.
As far as taking the AzVJC name... ABSOLUTELY NOT! If you want to
create a separate group, you create it with a completely different name
(unless of course, EVERYONE in the club agrees to allowing our name to
be used by this new offshoot group). Your suggestion of having people
join the Arizona LowRangers is a good one. If anyone craves reality,
this will be a good option for them and will ensure that any "real" club
remains absolutely separate.
You've done a good job with our webpage Mike... you've invested more
personal time than perhaps any other member of our club; for this, I
thank you. However, I believe your attempts to "organize" our group are
misguided and not at all in the interests of the majority of the people
in our club. This is yet another case of; if it ain't broke, don't fix
it.
The AZVJC isn't broke, and it doesn't need to be changed. I look
forward to our continued discussion...
Joe
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44371 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:18pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Feel free to create a separate club... I think that this is a good idea for
those who need it... do not however, try to relate it to the AZVJC....
webmaster or not, this is not a decision you can make without everyone's
authorization... and that you ain't gonna get. The new club must be
separate, and must not be liked to our current website any more than any
other club currently is.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:Mike@A...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:54 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> This is exactly what I mean. IF you want to participate then do so
> (pay your dues, get the ASA4WDC membership, United Membership, and
> Land Use Permit), IF you do not want to participate then don't (no
> different than what you have now)
>
> - Mike
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe Kearney" <joe@j...> wrote:
> > If someone chooses not o participate then it would be just like the
> > club was before, no problem.
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
44372 From: Brian Hill <brian@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:19pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
I just checked the copyright office and did not find the AzVJC logo copyrighted.
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe W
To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:01 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Hi Mike,
Splitting the group into two clubs will ultimately lead to the demise of one
or the other. I see absolutely no reason to become a "real" club or have a
mirror "real" club at all. Should we become real so we can be regulated?
Should we become real so we can have officers or pay dues? I'm sorry, but
the benefits of being virtual far outweigh the benefits of being real. If
you'd care to elaborate on the benefits you see to being real; I'd be more
than happy to have a nice debate with you.
As far as taking the AzVJC name... ABSOLUTELY NOT! If you want to create a
separate group, you create it with a completely different name (unless of
course, EVERYONE in the club agrees to allowing our name to be used by this
new offshoot group).
Your suggestion of having people join the Arizona LowRangers is a good one.
If anyone craves reality, this will be a good option for them and will
ensure that any "real" club remains absolutely separate.
You've done a good job with our webpage Mike... you've invested more
personal time than perhaps any other member of our club; for this, I thank
you. However, I believe your attempts to "organize" our group are misguided
and not at all in the interests of the majority of the people in our club.
This is yet another case of; if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
The AZVJC isn't broke, and it doesn't need to be changed. I look forward to
our continued discussion...
Joe
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44373 From: Joe Kearney <joe@j...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:24pm
Subject: More info
I have been following these threads a while now and even gave my opinion. I am in a little of a dilemma.
I have heard Mikes side and I have not heard too much from the people who do not want this.
I personally would like to have my opinion but I would like to hear both sides so I can get an educated (as much as I can be educated) opinion.
Can someone please try to put together both sides as unbiased as possible for all of us who have not been here before and have send this before.
I would like to hear both unbiased sides good and bad.
Joe Kearney
Joe@JRKearney.com
44374 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:19pm
Subject: RE: New poll for az_vjc
It's that time of the year... <grin>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@m...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:07 PM
> To: Virtual Jeep Club
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] New poll for az_vjc
>
>
> Oh no! Not this again!
>
> Chris K
>
> > From: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: 28 Feb 2002 17:33:12 -0000
> > To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [az_vjc] New poll for az_vjc
> >
> >
> > Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
> > az_vjc group:
> >
> > Would you be interested in Joining an
> > Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated?
> >
> > o Yes
> > o Maybe
> > o No
> >
> >
> > To vote, please visit the following web page:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/az_vjc/polls
> >
> > Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
> > not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
> > web site listed above.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44375 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:19pm
Subject: Re: Magazine Subscription at Expo
4wd and su. More to my harder core tastes and their tech articles tend to be
more useful. The problem I have w/ JU is that they've never seen a product
they don't love. As w/ most mags, they're probably not wanting to piss off
advertisers, but they seem to fall all over themselves to laud products.
Just my 2 cents.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "David R. W. Withers" <dr_ww@h...>
To: "'DougB'" <azjeep@c...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>; "'Gary Holmes'"
<niitoyis@w...>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:09 AM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Magazine Subscription at Expo
> So witch do you prefer to jp?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DougB [mailto:azjeep@c...]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 7:45 AM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; Gary Holmes
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Magazine Subscription at Expo
>
>
> JP takes forever to get once you since up. They're not the most
> organized bunch. Took me about 3 months. I ended up dropping it, though.
> There are better mags out there.
>
> Doug
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gary Holmes" <niitoyis@w...>
> To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 7:32 AM
> Subject: [az_vjc] Magazine Subscription at Expo
>
>
> > Group:
> >
> > Did anyone besides me get sucked into a magazine subscription (in my
> > case to JP) as the Expo when they gave you a knife set as a gift for
> > signing up? I have yet to receive the magazine and was wondering if I
>
> > was the exception or the rule here.
> >
> > Gary Holmes
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44376 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:21pm
Subject: Re: AZVJC, how it has grown.
Sure is. We started with 6 of us from the J+W NG. the term 'exponential' comes to mind.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: David Withers
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:28 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] AZVJC, how it has grown.
When I first joined, there was right around 700 members. The start page had maybe 10 items on it, and they were all trails primarily. It's amazing how much we have grown in such a short time. For you older members (I'm not inferring age here) it must be all the more amazing.
David R. W. Withers
AKA Pink Unimog man
AKA the stupid guy who dared mention change
Desk: 480.551.4667
Mobile: 480.215.6992
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
44377 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:21pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs
Unfortunately, this club has grown so large that it may come to be this time. od I hope not!
Just like in the everything else, others come in and feel they need to change things to their liking without thinking of the roots of the group.
AZVJC was never started to be an organized anything. Please don't try to make it what it was never meant to be. If you want organization, go join one of the many clubs that are. Leave us alone. I like the club the way it is and so do many others.
Just my $.02
Chris K
From: "Joe W"
Reply-To:
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:54:02 -0700
To: "'Chatfield, Mike'" ,
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Organized Clubs
Mike,
Organization is in the air again.... and I suspect that once again, it shall be shot down completely.
There are enough organized clubs to join here in the valley if people want to join. The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer, and we already have a Webmaster who is doing a fantastic job .
The only way that this group will become an organized entity is if you can get every single member to vote for organization... and I hate to tell you this; but I'll never vote for it...put it to a vote and watch how badly it gets shot down.
If people want to belong to an organized group, go off and start your own organized group. Call it the Arizona Jeep Club or the Arizona Axlebreakers or whatever... but I suggest that people not get their hopes up to high for the AZVJC to EVER become organized.
Ta-Ta till next year's organizational pleas start anew...
Joe West
Long live Anarchy!
-----Original Message-----
From: Chatfield, Mike [mailto:Mike@AzChatfield.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:29 AM
To: 'az_vjc@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [az_vjc] Organized Clubs
To all of those that already belong to an organized club, you may now delete this message (or continue reading if you're curious).
For everyone here that is interested:
I talked to Sandee McCullen at the cleanup in January and have been trying to figure out a way to bring this up to the group. Well it looks like this may be the perfect time with all that has happened in the past day or so.
We can make the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club an incorporated club and become a member club of the Arizona State Association of 4WD Clubs WITHOUT organizing (at least not any more than we already have). Sandee said that we need three "officers" and bylaws, we don't have to have membership requirements, elections, "official" club runs. All the bylaws have to say is who the officers are, how new members join, and when we have meetings (even if it is never).
Here is the way it would work. As it is now, anyone can join the AzVJC via the website and post messages to the group, this WILL NOT change. What changes is, once someone has joined the AzVJC and gone on one run (so we can verify that they live in Arizona and HAVE a JEEP) then they can join the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club Incorporated (AzVJC Inc). All they have to do is pay their dues for the year. If they want to drop out of the AzVJC Inc then they just don't pay the dues; it doesn't mean that they will be dropped from the website or mailing list. Nothing else changes... all we're doing is adding another option for our members.
Here is what I'm thinking for the incorporation:
For the three officers:
President - Responsible for turning in New Membership Information to ASA4WDC, attend ASA4WDC meetings. (I nominate DougB if he's interested)
Treasurer - Responsible for collecting money from members and paying ASA4WDC and Az State. (I nominate Jon Loveless, if he's interested, since he already does alot with stickers, etc...)
Webmaster - Responsible for maintaining the website and e-mail list.
How to become a New Member: 1. Join the AzVJC 2. Go on a run with the AzVJC (with at least one member of the AzVJC Inc present) 3. Pay Dues. That's it.
How to become a Non Member: 1. Don't pay your dues.
Meetings and Elections: None. If a club officer steps down, he/she chooses the replacement.
Dues: I am thinking since Az State has decided that clubs are only allowed 2 runs per month that we just include an individual permit in the cost of the dues for the year. This way members of the AzVJC Inc are double covered and they won't have to remember to get one every year (like me). Also included in the cost of dues would be ASA4WDC membership. Because of the incorporation, we'll likely have to start paying for the webspace (which we currently get for free) which is $21.25/month. We could also include things like paying to get rid of advertisements on Yahoo Groups, extra stickers to hand out at events, flyers, banners, etc... I estimate roughly $40/year which is right in line with most clubs.
The benefits are: 1. The AzVJC will be covered by the ASA4WDC million dollar insurance. 2. ASA4WDC and united will get more money to fight the eco-nazis. 3. The AzVJC will finally be recognized as the largest club at the ASA4WDC Jamboree :) 4. I'm sure there's more but my mind is drawing a blank.
The downside is: 1. Paying Dues. 2. There are no other downsides, other than paying dues, nothing changes, and you only have to pay dues if you want to (you just remain a member of AzVJC but not AzVJC Inc).
Does this make sense? I'll post a poll to find out how many may be interested. The initial start up costs will depend on the number of people starting the AzVJC Inc as incorporation can initially be expensive ($500?) ALSO, if anyone has been through the incorporation process before, we could use your assistance.
Thanks,
- Mike
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service .
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service .
44378 From: Robert McNeeley <robert.mcneeley@p...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:21pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Like they say...
The most effective way to cope with change is to help create it.
L. W. Lynett
Robert aka Fat Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
To: David R. W. Withers
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
David,
Already read it before joining. You think I didn't. Ha! You make a lot of assumptions for such a bright individual.
In life everything changes and evolves. This will happen to AzVJC too. Sorry you don't like it, but you don't have to. This won't hurt you a bit.
Don't look now but the response to the poll is about 50/50 with 16 percent undecided.
If you do it the way you've always done it, then you'll get what you've always got.
I like change... Change is good.
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'Brian Hill'
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
read the history of the club, and maybe you'll understand.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:48 PM
To: David R. W. Withers
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
No I'm not. I'm kinda new around here. Thought I found myself a home though. Not sure yet why I want to be a member of that organization yet, but I'll figure it out eventually. Newbies get a break on this don't they? You must be a big time member or you wouldn't be asking. Good for you! You should be proud.
I guess if the ASA4WDC changes it's mind next year then so be it. I'm sure that they'll miss both the revenue and ability to influence what we do at AzVJC inc. Let's cross that bridge when we come to it.
If you're not investing in a paid membership in an incorporated AzVJC club then you really don't have anything to complain about do you? What's the beef?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'Brian Hill'
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:29 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
The question is, why aren't you a ASA4WDC member already????
probably not
What happens next year when the ASAWDC says, we changed our minds, you need to have meetings and by-laws?
What then?!!!!
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:26 PM
To: David R. W. Withers; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Hi David,
I thought you were going away for awhile... What happened?
How about not telling me how to spend my money... If I want to spend it on AzVJC for a membership club I should be able to. I want to contribute to this club in that way.
If you don't want to participate then don't. Continue to be a member in the form you are now. Still sounds like everyone is welcome. Even You
Do you think it devalues your membership because there are those who are willing to contribute monetarily to the club and those who aren't?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
If you want to help out, give your money to those organized clubs.
-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@azvjc.org]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:53 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Joe,
I think you missed the point here. The idea is not to change the AzVJC
as it is, but in essence to create a 2nd club, a shadow club. The AzVJC
will remain unchanged, people will still come and go as they please,
there will still be no dues, no elections, no rules, just as it is now.
However, members of the AzVJC will have the OPTION to join the 2nd club
and the only requirement that is different is that they will need to pay
dues; in addition, the other "requirements" (ie. live in Az, own a Jeep)
will simply be enforced.
I agree that the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club does not need anything else.
However, offering the OPTION of joining a "Real" club that is a shadow
of the Az "Virtual" JC, I can only see this as a good thing for both the
individuals and our sport in general. Once again to be part of the
AzVJC, nothing changes. To join the shadow club, you simply need to pay
dues.
I thought alot about the name for the 2nd group. And even though the V
stands for "Virtual," I really think it should be the same name. Any
other name wouldn't fit right "Arizona Real Jeep Club", "Arizona Jeep
Club" and besides, then I'd have to create a whole new website
(www.AzRJC.org or www.AzJC.org).
Again this isn't an effort to ORGANIZE the AzVJC, it is an effort to
provide the membership of the AzVJC another OPTION. And I disagree that
the entire AzVJC membership would have to approve of such a thing, those
that don't approve or don't want to don't have to join the shadow club.
All we need is enough interest to see it through and enough initial
members to split the costs of incorporation.
I could even add a field to the Member Profiles called "Affiliated Club"
in which members could put whatever "real" club they belong to. I
suspect that alot of AzVJC members are members of the Az Lo-Rangers as
well.
The bottom line here is that I'm trying to make it easy for members of
the AzVJC to join and maintain membership of an "organized club." The
idea is to provide a webpage where they can pay their dues via PayPal
and be done with it. No meetings to attend no check to write and mail,
just an online payment. If the AzVJC shadow club doesn't interest
anyone, would the membership of the Az LowRangers perhaps be willing to
let our members join "On-Line" and pay their dues via PayPal? Since the
Az-Low Rangers rules are very similiar to the AzVJC's anyhow.
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
44379 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:22pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
And pay close attention to the number of people who have voted... pathetic isn't it? Mike's idea won't even get a SIMPLE majority of the total number of members... and we're not going to be making such decisions based on anything less... Is there anyone out here who believes we should make such a decision based on the wants of 2% of our membership? We'll see...
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
To: David R. W. Withers
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
David,
Already read it before joining. You think I didn't. Ha! You make a lot of assumptions for such a bright individual.
In life everything changes and evolves. This will happen to AzVJC too. Sorry you don't like it, but you don't have to. This won't hurt you a bit.
Don't look now but the response to the poll is about 50/50 with 16 percent undecided.
If you do it the way you've always done it, then you'll get what you've always got.
I like change... Change is good.
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'Brian Hill'
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
read the history of the club, and maybe you'll understand.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:48 PM
To: David R. W. Withers
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
No I'm not. I'm kinda new around here. Thought I found myself a home though. Not sure yet why I want to be a member of that organization yet, but I'll figure it out eventually. Newbies get a break on this don't they? You must be a big time member or you wouldn't be asking. Good for you! You should be proud.
I guess if the ASA4WDC changes it's mind next year then so be it. I'm sure that they'll miss both the revenue and ability to influence what we do at AzVJC inc. Let's cross that bridge when we come to it.
If you're not investing in a paid membership in an incorporated AzVJC club then you really don't have anything to complain about do you? What's the beef?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'Brian Hill'
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:29 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
The question is, why aren't you a ASA4WDC member already????
probably not
What happens next year when the ASAWDC says, we changed our minds, you need to have meetings and by-laws?
What then?!!!!
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:26 PM
To: David R. W. Withers; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Hi David,
I thought you were going away for awhile... What happened?
How about not telling me how to spend my money... If I want to spend it on AzVJC for a membership club I should be able to. I want to contribute to this club in that way.
If you don't want to participate then don't. Continue to be a member in the form you are now. Still sounds like everyone is welcome. Even You
Do you think it devalues your membership because there are those who are willing to contribute monetarily to the club and those who aren't?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
If you want to help out, give your money to those organized clubs.
-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@azvjc.org]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:53 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Joe,
I think you missed the point here. The idea is not to change the AzVJC
as it is, but in essence to create a 2nd club, a shadow club. The AzVJC
will remain unchanged, people will still come and go as they please,
there will still be no dues, no elections, no rules, just as it is now.
However, members of the AzVJC will have the OPTION to join the 2nd club
and the only requirement that is different is that they will need to pay
dues; in addition, the other "requirements" (ie. live in Az, own a Jeep)
will simply be enforced.
I agree that the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club does not need anything else.
However, offering the OPTION of joining a "Real" club that is a shadow
of the Az "Virtual" JC, I can only see this as a good thing for both the
individuals and our sport in general. Once again to be part of the
AzVJC, nothing changes. To join the shadow club, you simply need to pay
dues.
I thought alot about the name for the 2nd group. And even though the V
stands for "Virtual," I really think it should be the same name. Any
other name wouldn't fit right "Arizona Real Jeep Club", "Arizona Jeep
Club" and besides, then I'd have to create a whole new website
(www.AzRJC.org or www.AzJC.org).
Again this isn't an effort to ORGANIZE the AzVJC, it is an effort to
provide the membership of the AzVJC another OPTION. And I disagree that
the entire AzVJC membership would have to approve of such a thing, those
that don't approve or don't want to don't have to join the shadow club.
All we need is enough interest to see it through and enough initial
members to split the costs of incorporation.
I could even add a field to the Member Profiles called "Affiliated Club"
in which members could put whatever "real" club they belong to. I
suspect that alot of AzVJC members are members of the Az Lo-Rangers as
well.
The bottom line here is that I'm trying to make it easy for members of
the AzVJC to join and maintain membership of an "organized club." The
idea is to provide a webpage where they can pay their dues via PayPal
and be done with it. No meetings to attend no check to write and mail,
just an online payment. If the AzVJC shadow club doesn't interest
anyone, would the membership of the Az LowRangers perhaps be willing to
let our members join "On-Line" and pay their dues via PayPal? Since the
Az-Low Rangers rules are very similiar to the AzVJC's anyhow.
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
44380 From: DougB <azjeep@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:22pm
Subject: Re: Motor mount question
Don't have to but it's a good time to.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "jeepfanatic97" <itsajeepthing@a...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 9:52 AM
Subject: [az_vjc] Motor mount question
> quick question for anyone that has done a MM Lift....are you
> required/advised to do a body lift at the same time? I'm getting my
> lift the second week of march (4 inch tera) but its going to be about
> another month after that before I can do an SYE, and i'm trying to
> keep drive line vibes down until then.
>
> Thanks for the help
>
> Rob
> 97 TJ
> 4.0 5 speed
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
44381 From: jeepin_in_az <jeepin_in_az@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:24pm
Subject: Re: Organized Clubs
OK, when I voted an hour ago, I went with maybe. I just changed it
to no. If I want to "pay my dues", I will join the ASA4WDC as an
individual, and if I feel it nessasary to attend meetings, I will
join a local club. The VJC is working PERFECT as it is, no need to
change. This is a VIRTUAL club, and let it be that. If you feel you
need to belong to another "official" club, do it, no body is holding
you back. Why can't you be in 2 clubs at once? There are quite a
few VJC members that also belong to the Lo Rangers already. Does it
seem to cause a conflict now? NO it does not.
The word "you" that was used in the above paragraph, was used
generally, not to anyone specifically
Mike Baney, with my 2 cents.
In az_vjc@y..., "Brian Hill" <brian@a...> wrote:
> I just checked the copyright office and did not find the AzVJC logo
copyrighted.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joe W
> To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@y...
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:01 PM
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
>
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> Splitting the group into two clubs will ultimately lead to the
demise of one
> or the other. I see absolutely no reason to become a "real" club
or have a
> mirror "real" club at all. Should we become real so we can be
regulated?
> Should we become real so we can have officers or pay dues? I'm
sorry, but
> the benefits of being virtual far outweigh the benefits of being
real. If
> you'd care to elaborate on the benefits you see to being real;
I'd be more
> than happy to have a nice debate with you.
>
> As far as taking the AzVJC name... ABSOLUTELY NOT! If you want
to create a
> separate group, you create it with a completely different name
(unless of
> course, EVERYONE in the club agrees to allowing our name to be
used by this
> new offshoot group).
> Your suggestion of having people join the Arizona LowRangers is a
good one.
> If anyone craves reality, this will be a good option for them and
will
> ensure that any "real" club remains absolutely separate.
>
> You've done a good job with our webpage Mike... you've invested
more
> personal time than perhaps any other member of our club; for
this, I thank
> you. However, I believe your attempts to "organize" our group
are misguided
> and not at all in the interests of the majority of the people in
our club.
> This is yet another case of; if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
>
> The AZVJC isn't broke, and it doesn't need to be changed. I look
forward to
> our continued discussion...
>
> Joe
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
44382 From: Brian Hill <brian@a...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:26pm
Subject: Re: Re: Organized Clubs
It will happen here eventually, Better start callin' all your friends to get 'em to vote in the poll. Oh no, someone might actually contribute to the club, God knows we can't have that! Let's just use Mike to keep our website. Talk about Take, take, take.... gheesh!
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe W
To: 'Brian Hill' ; 'David R. W. Withers' ; 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:12 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Hi Brian,
If it turns out that you want to spend your money on a real club, feel free... try the Arizona LowRangers, I hear that they are a good group of guys and gals.
I will suggest that you don't get your hopes up too high for a separate group with the AZVJC name though... cause it isn't going to happen.
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:26 PM
To: David R. W. Withers; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Hi David,
I thought you were going away for awhile... What happened?
How about not telling me how to spend my money... If I want to spend it on AzVJC for a membership club I should be able to. I want to contribute to this club in that way.
If you don't want to participate then don't. Continue to be a member in the form you are now. Still sounds like everyone is welcome. Even You
Do you think it devalues your membership because there are those who are willing to contribute monetarily to the club and those who aren't?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
If you want to help out, give your money to those organized clubs.
-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@azvjc.org]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:53 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Joe,
I think you missed the point here. The idea is not to change the AzVJC
as it is, but in essence to create a 2nd club, a shadow club. The AzVJC
will remain unchanged, people will still come and go as they please,
there will still be no dues, no elections, no rules, just as it is now.
However, members of the AzVJC will have the OPTION to join the 2nd club
and the only requirement that is different is that they will need to pay
dues; in addition, the other "requirements" (ie. live in Az, own a Jeep)
will simply be enforced.
I agree that the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club does not need anything else.
However, offering the OPTION of joining a "Real" club that is a shadow
of the Az "Virtual" JC, I can only see this as a good thing for both the
individuals and our sport in general. Once again to be part of the
AzVJC, nothing changes. To join the shadow club, you simply need to pay
dues.
I thought alot about the name for the 2nd group. And even though the V
stands for "Virtual," I really think it should be the same name. Any
other name wouldn't fit right "Arizona Real Jeep Club", "Arizona Jeep
Club" and besides, then I'd have to create a whole new website
(www.AzRJC.org or www.AzJC.org).
Again this isn't an effort to ORGANIZE the AzVJC, it is an effort to
provide the membership of the AzVJC another OPTION. And I disagree that
the entire AzVJC membership would have to approve of such a thing, those
that don't approve or don't want to don't have to join the shadow club.
All we need is enough interest to see it through and enough initial
members to split the costs of incorporation.
I could even add a field to the Member Profiles called "Affiliated Club"
in which members could put whatever "real" club they belong to. I
suspect that alot of AzVJC members are members of the Az Lo-Rangers as
well.
The bottom line here is that I'm trying to make it easy for members of
the AzVJC to join and maintain membership of an "organized club." The
idea is to provide a webpage where they can pay their dues via PayPal
and be done with it. No meetings to attend no check to write and mail,
just an online payment. If the AzVJC shadow club doesn't interest
anyone, would the membership of the Az LowRangers perhaps be willing to
let our members join "On-Line" and pay their dues via PayPal? Since the
Az-Low Rangers rules are very similiar to the AzVJC's anyhow.
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
44383 From: Joe Kearney <joe@j...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:30pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
Joe,
I am holding my opinions for all of the unbiased (hopefully) information.
Joe Kearney
Joe@JRKearney.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@cox.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:23 PM
To: 'Brian Hill'; 'David R. W. Withers'
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
And pay close attention to the number of people who have voted... pathetic isn't it? Mike's idea won't even get a SIMPLE majority of the total number of members... and we're not going to be making such decisions based on anything less... Is there anyone out here who believes we should make such a decision based on the wants of 2% of our membership? We'll see...
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:18 PM
To: David R. W. Withers
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
David,
Already read it before joining. You think I didn't. Ha! You make a lot of assumptions for such a bright individual.
In life everything changes and evolves. This will happen to AzVJC too. Sorry you don't like it, but you don't have to. This won't hurt you a bit.
Don't look now but the response to the poll is about 50/50 with 16 percent undecided.
If you do it the way you've always done it, then you'll get what you've always got.
I like change... Change is good.
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'Brian Hill'
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
read the history of the club, and maybe you'll understand.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:48 PM
To: David R. W. Withers
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
No I'm not. I'm kinda new around here. Thought I found myself a home though. Not sure yet why I want to be a member of that organization yet, but I'll figure it out eventually. Newbies get a break on this don't they? You must be a big time member or you wouldn't be asking. Good for you! You should be proud.
I guess if the ASA4WDC changes it's mind next year then so be it. I'm sure that they'll miss both the revenue and ability to influence what we do at AzVJC inc. Let's cross that bridge when we come to it.
If you're not investing in a paid membership in an incorporated AzVJC club then you really don't have anything to complain about do you? What's the beef?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'Brian Hill'
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:29 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
The question is, why aren't you a ASA4WDC member already????
probably not
What happens next year when the ASAWDC says, we changed our minds, you need to have meetings and by-laws?
What then?!!!!
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:26 PM
To: David R. W. Withers; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Hi David,
I thought you were going away for awhile... What happened?
How about not telling me how to spend my money... If I want to spend it on AzVJC for a membership club I should be able to. I want to contribute to this club in that way.
If you don't want to participate then don't. Continue to be a member in the form you are now. Still sounds like everyone is welcome. Even You
Do you think it devalues your membership because there are those who are willing to contribute monetarily to the club and those who aren't?
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: David R. W. Withers
To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
If you want to help out, give your money to those organized clubs.
-----Original Message-----
From: az_jeeper_mike [mailto:azvjc@azvjc.org]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:53 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Joe,
I think you missed the point here. The idea is not to change the AzVJC
as it is, but in essence to create a 2nd club, a shadow club. The AzVJC
will remain unchanged, people will still come and go as they please,
there will still be no dues, no elections, no rules, just as it is now.
However, members of the AzVJC will have the OPTION to join the 2nd club
and the only requirement that is different is that they will need to pay
dues; in addition, the other "requirements" (ie. live in Az, own a Jeep)
will simply be enforced.
I agree that the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club does not need anything else.
However, offering the OPTION of joining a "Real" club that is a shadow
of the Az "Virtual" JC, I can only see this as a good thing for both the
individuals and our sport in general. Once again to be part of the
AzVJC, nothing changes. To join the shadow club, you simply need to pay
dues.
I thought alot about the name for the 2nd group. And even though the V
stands for "Virtual," I really think it should be the same name. Any
other name wouldn't fit right "Arizona Real Jeep Club", "Arizona Jeep
Club" and besides, then I'd have to create a whole new website
(www.AzRJC.org or www.AzJC.org).
Again this isn't an effort to ORGANIZE the AzVJC, it is an effort to
provide the membership of the AzVJC another OPTION. And I disagree that
the entire AzVJC membership would have to approve of such a thing, those
that don't approve or don't want to don't have to join the shadow club.
All we need is enough interest to see it through and enough initial
members to split the costs of incorporation.
I could even add a field to the Member Profiles called "Affiliated Club"
in which members could put whatever "real" club they belong to. I
suspect that alot of AzVJC members are members of the Az Lo-Rangers as
well.
The bottom line here is that I'm trying to make it easy for members of
the AzVJC to join and maintain membership of an "organized club." The
idea is to provide a webpage where they can pay their dues via PayPal
and be done with it. No meetings to attend no check to write and mail,
just an online payment. If the AzVJC shadow club doesn't interest
anyone, would the membership of the Az LowRangers perhaps be willing to
let our members join "On-Line" and pay their dues via PayPal? Since the
Az-Low Rangers rules are very similiar to the AzVJC's anyhow.
- Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Joe W" <arizonajeep@c...> wrote:
> The AZVJC does not need a President, or a Treasurer...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
44384 From: David R. W. Withers <dr_ww@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:24pm
Subject: RE: Re: Organized Clubs
to threaten a group is the worst way to get people to follow you.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Hill [mailto:brian@alacartephoto.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:19 PM
To: arizonajeep@cox.net; 'az_jeeper_mike'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
I just checked the copyright office and did not find the AzVJC logo copyrighted.
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe W
To: 'az_jeeper_mike' ; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:01 PM
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: Organized Clubs
Hi Mike,
Splitting the group into two clubs will ultimately lead to the demise of one
or the other. I see absolutely no reason to become a "real" club or have a
mirror "real" club at all. Should we become real so we can be regulated?
Should we become real so we can have officers or pay dues? I'm sorry, but
the benefits of being virtual far outweigh the benefits of being real. If
you'd care to elaborate on the benefits you see to being real; I'd be more
than happy to have a nice debate with you.
As far as taking the AzVJC name... ABSOLUTELY NOT! If you want to create a
separate group, you create it with a completely different name (unless of
course, EVERYONE in the club agrees to allowing our name to be used by this
new offshoot group).
Your suggestion of having people join the Arizona LowRangers is a good one.
If anyone craves reality, this will be a good option for them and will
ensure that any "real" club remains absolutely separate.
You've done a good job with our webpage Mike... you've invested more
personal time than perhaps any other member of our club; for this, I thank
you. However, I believe your attempts to "organize" our group are misguided
and not at all in the interests of the majority of the people in our club.
This is yet another case of; if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
The AZVJC isn't broke, and it doesn't need to be changed. I look forward to
our continued discussion...
Joe
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.