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Sandee McCullen
01-16-2007, 05:56 PM
CONFIRMED MEETING LOCATIONS, TIMES AND DATES FOR THE FJ ROUTE PLANNING ARE BELOW.

WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 24
6:00 p.m. - 9:00 p.m.
Barros Pizza
15440 N. 7th Street, Phx
(in a strip mall on the northwest corner of 7th STREET & Coral Gables just south of Greenway)

SATURDAY, JANUARY 27
1:00 p.m. - 4:00 p.m.
El Galeon Restaurant
1526 E. Main Street, Mesa
(North side of Main Street 2 blks west of Gilbert)

WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 31 (if needed)
6:00 p.m. - 9:00 p.m.
El Galeon Restaurant
1526 E. Main Street, Mesa
(North side of Main Street 2 blks west of Gilbert)

I will have the computer with the Evaluation Data as well as the maps that correspond. What I need from all of you is specific information regarding each trail.

I would like someone to start the action with a specific trail. I will be at the computer listing all the issues or data each can apply.

After we compile all we have we can put it together in a Proposed Plan. Each meeting will have a sign in sheet and each of these will be included in the proposed plan.

Any additional ideas are appreciated.

Jeeppeepin
01-16-2007, 06:19 PM
Sandee,

I can make the Wed meeting if I get out of work on time.

Rachel

azcharlie
01-16-2007, 06:31 PM
I'll be there for the Mesa meeting.

rockwerks
01-16-2007, 06:33 PM
I've never been on any of the trails at FJ, If I can be of any help LMK

Brian

Sandee McCullen
01-16-2007, 06:39 PM
Exactly what information, in detail please, are you expecting from attendees? That will help a lot.


Barry

Please go back through the thread on FJ.............
I cannot go through all this again.

Bottom line..............
I will have the evaluation data and maps.
I need outside information from all of you as to the
1)HISTORY of each trail.
2)An open mind regarding "mitigation".......... i.e. "gating vs closure"
3)If you have old maps of this area.......... bring them.
4)If you have aerial maps..........
5)Pictures are good

Sandee McCullen
01-16-2007, 06:42 PM
I've never been on any of the trails at FJ, If I can be of any help LMK

Brian

Brian,
I would love to have you attend......... you may not know the trails or the history but you can certainly help ORGANIZE the data.

Every little bit of help or information is appreciated.

Sandee McCullen
01-16-2007, 06:45 PM
Sandee,

I can make the Wed meeting if I get out of work on time.

Rachel

Join in whenever you can............. don't have to attend all if it doesn't work for you. THANKS

John_P
01-16-2007, 07:49 PM
Please go back through the thread on FJ.............
I cannot go through all this again.

Bottom line..............
I will have the evaluation data and maps.
I need outside information from all of you as to the
1)HISTORY of each trail.
2)An open mind regarding "mitigation".......... i.e. "gating vs closure"
3)If you have old maps of this area.......... bring them.
4)If you have aerial maps..........
5)Pictures are good

Maybe I am just being pessimisitc, but I fail to see how 1, 3, 4, 5 can be submitted as legitimate "data".

Think about it this way...If you were asked to independently consider the validity of the data...how would you view nothing more than personal accounts from a [relatively] small sample of OHV'rs?

Sandee McCullen
01-16-2007, 08:07 PM
Maybe I am just being pessimisitc, but I fail to see how 1, 3, 4, 5 can be submitted as legitimate "data".

Think about it this way...If you were asked to independently consider the validity of the data...how would you view nothing more than personal accounts from a [relatively] small sample of OHV'rs?

OK guys........ I've had enough. If you don't want to be a part of putting a OHV Transportation plan together don't. I will not continue with this stupidity of constantly defending what I say.
ONE last time.........
BOTTOM LINE IS WE NEED TO PRESENT A PLAN SHOWING DATA SUPPORTING "NO SIGNIFICANT IMPACT"............
1) History is part of substantive documentated data in that it could be that
a)this trail has been part of the transportation system for 40+ years........ why close now.
b)the knowledge and DATA that a specific trail has had numerous permits issued (see LW info from other post)
c)no data showing damage or SIGNIFICANT impact.
d)there is no riparian or resource issues involved.
etc etc etc........... I've covered and explained these issues several times already.
3, 4, 5)
a) maps show documentation of the existing history / use of a trail
b) pictures also reflect documentation of "whats there"

BLM CANNOT close anything without DOCUMENTATION and public input (sans an Emergency Closure) but they can close if the only "Documentation/Data" they get is from the Indian Nation or the Enviros. If the enviros show pictures of tire tracks or oil spills or trees down etc etc and we do not stand toe to toe with data defending "no significant impact" they WIN BY DEFAULT. BLM, or any land manager will simply "take the path of least resistance". If we're not at the table they will automatically assume we don't care. Obviously many don't.

Part of this planning is just simple, idiot free, COMMON SENSE. If you are not interested in helping presenting an OHV Transportation Plan don't say one blasted word about "shoulda, coulda, woulda" when the Preferred Plan does come out the way you "woulda" done or recommended.

Following this thread and the Coke Ovens closure has convinced me I will not continue posting any land use issues on this board in the future. I am not a God, nor am I craming anything down anyones throats.............. I'm simply trying to tell "what's happening". I do not have time to support nor explain every word I say.

John_P
01-16-2007, 08:26 PM
OK guys........ I've had enough. If you don't want to be a part of putting a OHV Transportation plan together don't. I will not continue with this stupidity of constantly defending what I say.
ONE last time.........
BOTTOM LINE IS WE NEED TO PRESENT A PLAN SHOWING DATA SUPPORTING "NO SIGNIFICANT IMPACT"............
1) History is part of substantive documentated data in that it could be that
a)this trail has been part of the transportation system for 40+ years........ why close now.
b)the knowledge and DATA that a specific trail has had numerous permits issued (see LW info from other post)
c)no data showing damage or SIGNIFICANT impact.
d)there is no riparian or resource issues involved.
etc etc etc...........
3, 4, 5)
a) maps show documentation of the existing history / use of a trail
b) pictures also reflect documentation

BLM CANNOT close anything without DOCUMENTATION but they can close if the only "Documentation/Data" they get is from the Indian Nation or the Enviros this constitutes DOCUMENTATION. If the enviros show pictures of tire tracks or oil spills or trees down etc etc and we do not stand toe to toe with data defending "no significant impact" they WIN BY DEFAULT. BLM, or any land manager will simply "take the path of least resistance".
Part of this planning is just simple, idiot free, COMMON SENSE. If you are not interested in helping presenting an OHV Transportation Plan don't say one blasted word about "shoulda, coulda, woulda" when the Preferred Plan does come out the way you "woulda" done or recommended.

Following this thread and the Coke Ovens closure has convinced me I will not continue posting any land use issues on this board in the future. I am not a God, nor am I craming anything down anyones throats.............. I'm simply trying to tell "what's happening". I do not have time to support nor explain every word I say.

Why the defensiveness? Not neccesary.

If you think this is bad, can you imagine how other groups will criticize our "data"?

My point is simple...

How does Joe Wheelers memory about his trail escapades in 1992 make our case?

You do realize that data like this is way behind in the credibility curve, don't you?

I hope someone brings something more than "personal maps"....

If memory was "good enough", the natives have us covered. :)

westy
01-16-2007, 08:54 PM
Those of us asking conflicting questions are not trying to argue but rather try to generate new ideas and or get a better understanding of what exactly we need to do in order to be prepared

My1stJeep
01-16-2007, 10:15 PM
Maybe I am just being pessimisitc, but I fail to see how 1, 3, 4, 5 can be submitted as legitimate "data".

Think about it this way...If you were asked to independently consider the validity of the data...how would you view nothing more than personal accounts from a [relatively] small sample of OHV'rs?

Ok let us look at it one at a time:

1) The history of the trail has alot of importance. One the history of how long that trail has been used is very significant. Often times we have been told that a trail that has been used and run for over 20 years is being claimed by the land management as a "new Trail" when in fact it is not. A tactic used to close it. Also historical significance like the Cabins, the right by those who choose OHV as their access to go out and see things of historical signficance, something the opposition also uses as a reason to close them, why can we not use them as a reason to keep them open so we too can go see them? I see both as legitimate reasons, to counter both claims that the trail is new when it is not and to allow access to see things of historical significance.

In addition the significance of people's "1992 trail escapades" will be to document the trail. It can be used to show where the OHV community and the land management have already worked together to mitigate issues, and show how long the trails have existed. You are correct, telling them I got a flat tire on the trail in 1992 is going to do nothing, but documenting that the trail was run back in 1992, when someone else is trying to document the trail was just created can counter that. Is this perfect data, well according to John it is not, but if the Anti-OHV crowd is standing up to say trail xyz, 123, def and *** are all new trails cut as wildcats in the last 5 years, and an OHV person can show pictures (yes may be hard to prove when they were taken) but it would be documented proof rather than just claims, which is all the Anti-OHV person is going to have. So perfect maybe not, but better then not having anything. Allot will depend on how we present everything we get, so as you say it, does not come across like we are behind the credibility curve. Rather then just bash the ideas, why not tell us what you think would be more crediable and would serve us better?

3) The old maps will allow us to validate that trails being claimed as new are in deed not and that they did exist and may even prove that at one time they were on previous route inventories and were dropped off mysteriously. Yes I know for you John this constitutes a conspiracy theory, but we can chalk it up to a mistake or clerical error if you like that somewhere along the line it dropped off. A historical map that depics it, especially if someone were to have a route inventory map from a land management org would do alot of good proving that it is a valid trail and has been for along time. It would also help validate trails and trail names. There has been some controversy at times over this, out at the White Tanks we had lower tax collecter and upper, but then after doing some note swapping it was later determined that upper was really Firebird. Bringing all the data to the table to ensure we have all the trails depicted, names line up and trails are documented along with history is a better sound basis to start off with don't you think?

4) Aerial maps can help support both of the previous comments.

5) Same here, it can help prove the above as well as provide documentation that OHV do some good. Clean up pictures of before and after, supporting the BLM with the construction of walking paths for non OHV users, etc... can help paint a different picture of OHV users. I have been to many of these meetings and believe me, presented to us in the data by the Anti-OHV crowd are pictures of trash of destruction or perceived destruction on their part. So pictures showing responsible OHV are not a bad thing. They will not do alot to help, but at this point everything and anything that can help we should do.

It is funny, some of these questions are almost resembling an attempt to put this whole thing into a conspiracy light.

I think it is sad, here someone is putting together meetings to help us and instead we are trashing our own people.

For the record, at the last few meetings I have been too, the Anti-OHV crowd have not presented even this much in the way of facts to get areas closed, and have used not tangible data. Not that we should rest on that and do the same, we need to go after tangible data whenever possible and I think showing the history of the trail, how long it has been in existance and used and any historical facts of what the trail means are tangible. To add to it we should show the affects and hopefully be and to quantify it as minimal on those trails. The only way to be sure we have all the trails is to review all the data, and that comes from the old maps, pictures, and if we have them aerial photos.

Thank you Sandee for putting this together. I hope this answers the questions well enough for those who see the glass as half empty.

corwyyn
01-16-2007, 11:36 PM
Sandee, I can make the Mesa meeting on the 27th (heck its just a couple of blocks from my apartment). I have USA Photomaps on my computer and have aerial and topo images of the entire FJ area from the Terraserver site downloaded if this will help. Most of the topos are at least 15 years old but that could actually be beneficial as there are many 'Jeep trails' documented on them (not sure how they correspond to the current trails in the area). Most of the aerial images are around 10-15 years old as well.

rockwerks
01-17-2007, 12:21 AM
Brian,
I would love to have you attend......... you may not know the trails or the history but you can certainly help ORGANIZE the data.

Every little bit of help or information is appreciated.

LMK which ones you need me at.... I will definitely be at the 31st and can make the 24th also if needed.. I can bring a laptop if needed

Tom Jacobson
01-17-2007, 06:56 AM
I defintely plan to be at the Mesa meeting. I may not understand exactly how this case of ours is going to be put together, but I will bring this:

2)An OPEN MIND...

And will LISTEN.

Sandee, I can't promise this, but I may be able to get a portable projector from work to bring to the meeting. We could plug your computer into it and that way, share the maps, pics, whatever everyone brings much more easily with everyone. (Provided there is a nice clear wall to project onto...or someone has a screen). If you've got the capability, and there is wireless service inside the restaurant, there are also a couple good online sat-map and topo map services that actually show the trails fairly well, too.

In the meantime...any specific pics that would be good to illustrate the areas of concern? Like the petroglyphs in LWP and UWP? I'm sure we've all got pics of our rigs on the obstacles nearby the 'glyphs, but I know I've never taken detail pics of them by themselves.

I won't be wheeling between now and the meetings...anyone else???

Tom

the toad
01-17-2007, 07:05 AM
I'm w/ Tom.

I will bring the same to the Mesa meeting.

Marv

rockwerks
01-17-2007, 07:10 AM
I'm w/ Tom.

I will bring the same to the Mesa meeting.

Marv


which mesa meeting? there are 2?

Tom Jacobson
01-17-2007, 07:20 AM
which mesa meeting? there are 2?

The one on the 27th for sure. If another is held on the 31st to further the discussion...will likely be there, too.

Tom

rockwerks
01-17-2007, 07:29 AM
The one on the 27th for sure. If another is held on the 31st to further the discussion...will likely be there, too.

Tom

I will change my schedule so I can be there on the 24th for sure.

Im traveling on the 27th so cant make that one but will make the 31st if needed

willtjx
01-17-2007, 08:10 AM
thanks sandee, i would like to be there if only for support. i will see if my schedule will allow it.

will

heatstroke
01-17-2007, 08:47 AM
OK guys........ I've had enough. If you don't want to be a part of putting a OHV Transportation plan together don't. I will not continue with this stupidity of constantly defending what I say.


Sandee, as I'm sure you are well aware, there are many other OHV groups around the Phoenix area. Much of this information has been shared between the various sites that we all traverse. Please know that there are other people willing to help in this effort from other boards. I will (as others do too) continue to cross post to those sites and get the word out to as many as I can. Thank you for your hard work and tremendous amount of time you put in on this daily. I will see you at at least one of the meetings if not more.

~Heatstroke
Mike
AzTTORA

John_P
01-17-2007, 08:49 AM
Well...so many responses, so little time to respond to them all...

let me premise my comments with the following...

I care, or I would not be commenting.

I would like to admit my ignorance of the BLM, or for that matter any gov't agency's, decision making process.

Finally,

IF the purpose of gathering anecdotal evidence is for the sole purpose of just providing something, rather than nothing, than by all means have fun at your meeting.

However,

If the gov't decision making process involves any sort of weighting of the data...that is, if they make decisions based on the quality of the data...I have to admit that I would be skeptical of anecdotal evidence. Wouldn't you?

I apologize if it came off the wrong way...BUT, and I mentioned this before not only to Sandee but in the meeting I did attend, there is not enough information on the decision making process.

If you don't know how they make decisions, then how do you knwo what counts in terms of evidence?

On to the comments of my fellow jeepers...




Joe Wheelers memory is as substantial as the Native Americans Aura... most of which have not entered the land in a very long time... They have gliffs we have tracks... and lets not forget, gliffs are little more than graffitti that we've decided are important because we want to be PC. A person paints on a wall... If it happened 10,000 years ago its valuable, if it happened last week its criminal... 300 years from now, a new group of hippies will gather around cabin and awe at the "tags" on the cabin...

Has nothing to do with political correctness, but rather the cultural foundations of a group of people. If your reasoning was correct, the historcial significance of the Pantheon would be no different than my lcoal neighborhood church. This sort of historical relativism is absurd.



This data, while it may not be empirical, is more substantial than what the other group is showing up with.

So enlighten us as to the quality of their evidence? If on par with ours, I would end my ramblings now.



We're presenting a history of existance; these trails exist and have for a long time... It makes me nervouse to make this point because I'm afraid it can be used against us, but Sandee is the one who is in the trenches here not us... We don't need to bring a tank to a knife fight. The enviros aren't going to have long term impact studies of diff oil on rocks... If that was the case we'd have these areas open for another twenty years while they conducted it.

Clearly, the relavant data here is recreation history. Sure, simply showing that the trail was "recognize" by some locals is a good starting point. But this can be a sticky issue, as that argument could be used for ANY wash that you can fit a Jeep through...How do you get around this issue? Something important to consider, as they certainly take take that stance.

That is why EMPIRICAL data is CRITICAL.



If you're unhappy with the level of data being presented, then you should get into the process and organize something more substantial...

I might have to attend, because frankly, I am unsure exactly what level we have to begin with...



we've all read what you know won't work; please enrich us with what we should be doing. If Joe's memories have no impact, what would you replace it with?

Would have to think about it some more. One example would be to find PUBLISHED references to some of the trails in question. Maybe an old published trail guide...certainly adds a bit more legitmacy if you ask me.



If old personal maps and photos aren't good enough, please for God's sake tell us what its going to take for us make our case... It's obviouse you know, otherwise you wouldn't constantly be interjecting yourself into the conversation.

Actually, I would argue the exact opposite. I would say I don't know that is why I am voicing my questions and concerns. I need clarification.



On the other hand, if you don't know how to do this better than Sandee, maybe its time to shut your pie hole and let her do her thing before we lose her.

If this is how she reacts to questions from the group she represents, how will she react to the comments from opposing groups??? Like I posted above...defensiveness is not neccesary. If her intent is to establish an open dialogue with the group she represents than this much INTEREST should be of great value to the "cause".



I'll admit I'm the last guy they want in the process, I don't know the area and I wouldn't have a clue what to present; yes I've asked questions because I need calrification and yes I have some of my own opinions... but I'm sure as isht not going to tell the only person who is actually helping us, that she is going about this the wrong way. Lets not forget (I've been around long enough to figure this out)... if Sandee walks away from these issues... we are ****IN ****ED... So how about until we're all ready to jump in and take over, we give her three feet of personal space and stop playin arm chair QB for like five minutes...

Well...I agree with you somewhat...However, if that mantle is to eventually be passed on, than once again this dialogue HAS TO HAPPEN.

My intent was to be skeptical...having one of your own be skeptical is better than some BLM agent or Enviro on the otehr side...this is what prevents "group-think"...Someone has to play devils-advocate.

westy
01-17-2007, 08:51 AM
Here is a prime example of what we are OHV users are up against - this will give you an idea of the type of information and data the greenies are compiling to close areas in the Florence Junction area -

scroll down to page 7 (Martinez Canyon) -
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:MBVNLblGQHIJ:www.azwild.org/documents/AZWILDFall2006-07LR.pdf+historic+information+data+arizona+travel+ route+%22martinez+canyon%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3

John_P
01-17-2007, 09:04 AM
Here is a prime example of what we are OHV users are up against - this will give you an idea of the type of information and data the greenies are compiling to close areas in the Florence Junction area -

scroll down to page 7 (Martinez Canyon) -
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:MBVNLblGQHIJ:www.azwild.org/documents/AZWILDFall2006-07LR.pdf+historic+information+data+arizona+travel+ route+%22martinez+canyon%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3

Studies and documentation of abuse. Wow.

I wonder how that will look side by side with our "pictures" of jeeps negotiating those same trails?

Also...did you see those numbers concerning the level of OHV sales?? Man...I can't even begin to think how you "manage" those numbers...

Shocker
01-17-2007, 09:13 AM
.......

westy
01-17-2007, 09:13 AM
I think it will be beneficial to have some skeptics at the meetings to throw out some new ideas on the table. I will be very interested to see what kind of historic information and data is compiled to help our cause. Critical thinking and debates are what will help develop the best plan of action...

John_P
01-17-2007, 10:22 AM
John,
You should be embarrassed. Sandee is working her butt off and instead of giving her a pat on the back or a helping hand, you are slapping her in the face. What's wrong with you? It's a free country--you can say what you want. However, there are times when it's just better to keep your mouth shut (it's called class and tact).

I have never posted before but this upset me so much that I felt the need to lend Sandee a little more support.

Nothing is wrong with me, I am fine, thank you for asking.

I never said Sandee wasn't working hard. Her posts speak volumes in terms of her dedication and level of involvment. That said, I have given my support. In my view, every comment I have posted is a form of support. I have been to a meeting and heard all the passsion and emotion, accusations and anecdotes of those dedicated to keeping trails open.

However, it has always been, and will always be my opinion that until a clear outline of the decision process is presented, it will be difficult to constrcut and effective and persuasive argument.

We know the Enviros have general studies and documentation of abuse. We know that the areas DO contain archealogically important sites. (if anyone else is familiar with other evidence they may present, please speak up).

Now. This is a good start.

Here is how I would start...

Do we have published sources denoting these trails? Mapping them for recreational use? Trail guides?

Do we have a HISTORICAL record of recreation use estimates for each trail (hard numebrs)? How far back does that record go? What does the trend look like? If an increase is evident, how will we argue that despite the increase we can mitigate damage due to increased use?

Do we have examples or data that demonstrates that closure here would impact other areas? Again, hard numbers would be great...soemthing to the effect of:

Use of trail A at time X was 100
Adjacent trail B at time X was 100
Closure of trail A at time Y
Increase in adjacent trail B at time Y was 200

Permits and such are great pieces of data, these would need to be played hard.

Do we have documentation of the last clean up out at FJ? Maybe on some of the trails said abuses took place? Most importantly, can we estbalish a verfied record of cleanups thoughout the years?

Can we provide a rationale concerning, a summary statement of sorts, on WHY recreation in this area is vital?

Do we have retail and economic data that would link recreation in this area to local businesses?

Etc...etc...etc...get the picture?

My1stJeep
01-17-2007, 10:44 AM
Studies and documentation of abuse. Wow.

I wonder how that will look side by side with our "pictures" of jeeps negotiating those same trails?

Also...did you see those numbers concerning the level of OHV sales?? Man...I can't even begin to think how you "manage" those numbers...

Studies, I saw accusations in the document, agreed that I was reading the Martinez page, and if you read it and take if for face value it is a study. SO why can't we do the same? Show pictures of us cleaning it up? Negotiating obstacles in a way that does not harm the environment and has minimal impact? There are no accusations in that document that cannot be mitigated, only the opinion of the author. If you are looking for such hard core facts, please show me where you see them in here? Are there dates and pictures for each of the 20 claimed spills they have seen over the years?

As for pictures and claims, really funny how they have a picture there, taken by one of the people who he himself vandalized the cabin...DOH yet no mention of that in the article... funny how OHV is blamed when there own have too damaged it... hmmm so is this the type of study you are referring too that is valid?

Also interesting, isn't it considered circumstantial claiming that OHV have damaged it? Do we have pictures that it was OHV people who caused the damage or are they just saying it because they don't want us there? Could it have been hikers who were cold at night at a camp over that pulled some wood for a fire? Could it have been some partiers have a desert party? Could it have been irresponsible OHV users? It could have been any of them, there are no hard facts other than claims and opinions, yet you say this is a study and that we are not putting together a good enough case for OHV access? As for the oil spills, it very well could have been an OHV, it also could be someone taking out a coffee cup of oil and pooring out a little and taking a picture to make it look like and OHV did it, yes this cries conspiracy to you John, but it could happen. Are the spills documented with proof that they did indeed drop from an OHV other than being able to say it is a high probability? Yes I will give it that common sense would say it came from a vehicle, but knowing what we do today about the tactics used by these anti-OHV groups that have out right lied and planted evidence before can you safely say there is no chance they planted the evidence?

Your comments have confused more than helped. What Sandee is doing it putting together a baseline so we can expand. Usefull suggestions like type of data and how it should be presented are very welcome, but vagueness is not very helpful and isn't it whole problem you have with this, that what is truly needed is not a quick easy list and if vague, yet you make your comments in a vague fashion? You can't have it both ways, if you want specifics then be specific.

Sandee I will see you at the meeting on the 24th.

John_P
01-17-2007, 11:06 AM
Studies, I saw accusations in the document, agreed that I was reading the Martinez page, and if you read it and take if for face value it is a study. SO why can't we do the same? Show pictures of us cleaning it up? Negotiating obstacles in a way that does not harm the environment and has minimal impact? There are no accusations in that document that cannot be mitigated, only the opinion of the author. If you are looking for such hard core facts, please show me where you see them in here? Are there dates and pictures for each of the 20 claimed spills they have seen over the years?

You know what I saw? They have documented evidence of:

Vegetation destruction (for firewood, trail blockage)
Oil spills (20)
Severe erosion
Vandalism

If you read further they cite that studies have shown the deleterious effects of roads. I assume this is published in a scientific journal, but would have to see it...

These are not opinions but documented incidents and evidence.

The opinion of the author is that the canyon should be closed and that further damage will insue if noting is done. The author uses the above evidence as support for this opinion.



As for pictures and claims, really funny how they have a picture there, taken by one of the people who he himself vandalized the cabin...DOH yet no mention of that in the article... funny how OHV is blamed when there own have too damaged it... hmmm so is this the type of study you are referring too that is valid?

Do you have evidence that this gentleman vandalized the cabin?

Do we have record of their damage?

This article is not a study but an argument for closure. You have to remember that even IF OHV did not cause the damage, damage was done. Pure and simple. No matter the cause, that is still evidence for closure in their minds.





Your comments have confused more than helped. What Sandee is doing it putting together a baseline so we can expand. Usefull suggestions like type of data and how it should be presented are very welcome, but vagueness is not very helpful and isn't it whole problem you have with this, that what is truly needed is not a quick easy list and if vague, yet you make your comments in a vague fashion? You can't have it both ways, if you want specifics then be specific.

Maybe they have confused you, Chris, but others on here understand my comments.

If simply blowing me off is how you deal with my arguments, I suggest not trying that with the BLM or the Enviros.

Sean K.
01-17-2007, 11:17 AM
Wow....more herd mentality. Bison follow the leader off a cliff, lemmings into the sea.

By all means, keep attacking anyone that merely questions Sandee.

Sean

My1stJeep
01-17-2007, 11:25 AM
You know what I saw? They have documented evidence of:

Vegetation destruction (for firewood, trail blockage)
Oil spills (20)
Severe erosion
Vandalism

If you read further they cite that studies have shown the deleterious effects of roads. I assume this is published in a scientific journal, but would have to see it...

These are not opinions but documented incidents and evidence.

The opinion of the author is that the canyon should be closed and that further damage will insue if noting is done. The author uses the above evidence as support for this opinion.



Do you have evidence that this gentleman vandalized the cabin?

Do we have record of there damage?

This article is not a study but an argument for closure.



Maybe they have confused you, Chris, but others on here understand my comments.

If simply blowing me off is how you deal with my arguments, I suggest not trying that with the BLM or the Enviros.

Damage? Yes it is damage, and yes it could have been done by anyone, which is my point. If that were they main concern they would want it closed to everyone. Guess what they only want it closed to OHV and are in fact trying to blame everything on OHV. If it were only about the damage they would ask for it closed entirely, but they do have an agenda and that is to get the OHV out and let them continue using it.

20 spills, and do you have them documented? DO you have proof as to who dropped them or how or are you just assuming who it was?

Errosion? Could this be from natural, what proof is offered that OHV caused the errosion? Could it be natural run off? There is no proof that it caused by OHV, just accusation and last I knew accusations were not studies.

Vegitation destruction for firewood? And the proof that is only from OHV users and not hikers is? Not that it makes it any better who is doing it, but why is it only OHV users who can get into an area and return in one day easier than a hiker covering the same distance are the ones having the fires? Why are the hikers not blamed? As for trail blockage, just as with the tree incident recently, we worked with the BLM and the BLM worked to remove it. Not sure how this one applies other than the use of natural resources by anti-OHV users in attempt to block passage on the trail.

Vandalism? This could be from any hiker, OHV users, or goof ball out there. Why is that OHV is the only one mentioned, or better yet where is the proof that only OHV people are doing all this damage?

Sandee is asking us to bring maps, pictures etc... so we can have documented evidence that we clean up our own mess if we truly created it, document the history of how long these trails have been in existance, show minimal impact, which you say is not doing enough, but when the anti-OHV do it you say they have done there job? I would say that consitutes confusing.

As for the damage done by one of there own, he admitted to several people and is not shy at hiding or at least wasn't in the past. You can also see signs of damage by anti-OHV recently. When the tree incident happened, the so called BLM Volunteer (a tag line the person who painted the cabin with a do not paint on the walls used to use) took parts of the cabin and made make shift sign telling people to stay out. Not sure if the guy would have the guts to admit these things again, but he has in the past.

Blowing you off, funny, I think I pretty well answered your questions the first time, yet you ignored them an continued down this path of vagueness. If I were blowing you off I would simply call you a blow fish and be done instead I have answered your vague questions as best one can. You may want to re-read some of them I don't think you have near the support you would like to think you have.

Again if you have suggestions on what other types of data you would see as more irrefutable and would benefit us better I think we would be all ears and welcome it, but being vague is not helping any more than the vagueness you are feeling.

desertboy
01-17-2007, 11:47 AM
Please go back through the thread on FJ.............
I cannot go through all this again.

Bottom line..............
I will have the evaluation data and maps.
I need outside information from all of you as to the
1)HISTORY of each trail.
2)An open mind regarding "mitigation".......... i.e. "gating vs closure"
3)If you have old maps of this area.......... bring them.
4)If you have aerial maps..........
5)Pictures are good


I have GPS coordinates for several trails, anyone else want to help me with what they have?? Maybe print an aerial map(s)...

I`m don`t a frequent member here, please e-mail me at-
C_Grady1@hotmail.com

John_P
01-17-2007, 12:12 PM
Damage? Yes it is damage, and yes it could have been done by anyone, which is my point. If that were they main concern they would want it closed to everyone. Guess what they only want it closed to OHV and are in fact trying to blame everything on OHV. If it were only about the damage they would ask for it closed entirely, but they do have an agenda and that is to get the OHV out and let them continue using it.

Do you see that OHV is an easy target? A "not me" attitude is not going to be a seller. Do you really think they are going to remove hiking trails? Wake up, Chris, this is NOT going to be the way it works. Hiking trails are perceived as less damaging, plain and simple. Even with NO evidence, that assumption is tough to challenge. I wouldn't even go there.

EDIT: There may be some scientific data on the impact of hiking trails in areas where there were previously no trials. it is information such that, that can be informative.



20 spills, and do you have them documented? DO you have proof as to who dropped them or how or are you just assuming who it was?

Do I? No, but the author seems to have the evidence, which I assume will be used in their argument. They do not need to say "Tom Jones" dropped the oil...But I can assure you, that in all my hiking experience, I have carried no oil with me.



Errosion? Could this be from natural, what proof is offered that OHV caused the errosion? Could it be natural run off? There is no proof that it caused by OHV, just accusation and last I knew accusations were not studies.

Depends. Obviously they indicate it is documented...would have to examine their evidence. At this point, I think our assumption should be that it does exist...if it does not...than we don't lose ground.

Also, the issue of erosion may only be addressable by an expert. You can't really believe that trekking 10 jeeps through a trail does not impact erosion patterns, can you? The real question is, does it make a significant impact? Unfortunately, I don't have the expertise to address that, and again, a "not me" attitude is not much better. If anything, I would be insisting on empricial data to support their claims. Put the onus of proof on them.

One way, in my mind to possibly challenge errosion claims is to compare analyses between areas where OHV trails exist, only hiking trails exist, and where they do not...if they are similar, it would be hard to argue that OHV impacts errosion significantly.

Savy?



Vegitation destruction for firewood? And the proof that is only from OHV users and not hikers is? Not that it makes it any better who is doing it, but why is it only OHV users who can get into an area and return in one day easier than a hiker covering the same distance are the ones having the fires? Why are the hikers not blamed? As for trail blockage, just as with the tree incident recently, we worked with the BLM and the BLM worked to remove it. Not sure how this one applies other than the use of natural resources by anti-OHV users in attempt to block passage on the trail.

I agree...hikers do forage for firewood. However, usually you are looking for fallen wood, it is usually drier and easier to burn. Anyow, if you have documentation of working with the BLM on this issue....BRING IT.



Vandalism? This could be from any hiker, OHV users, or goof ball out there. Why is that OHV is the only one mentioned, or better yet where is the proof that only OHV people are doing all this damage?

Because OHV users are most likely goof-balls? I don't know! Again, I think the damage itself serves their purpose. How do you negate that?



Sandee is asking us to bring maps, pictures etc... so we can have documented evidence that we clean up our own mess if we truly created it

I would highly suggest that this type of evidence NOT be brought. RATHER, I would suggest organizing documentation of organized cleanups. If you want to inform BLM of HOW we advocate cleaning up a spill...than that might be useful. I just wouldn't hand them a knife to stab us with. Who knows...some of the oil spills they documented COULD have been botched or poorly done cleanups.

Maps are good...but they better be published maps with clearly identifiable routes. I have seveal 7.5' topos that have "Jeep trail" in several places, but in actuality they are hiking trails. So, that is not going to cut it...

Try to find published articles or trail guides listing the trails. That adds legitmacy to their existence in my mind.

I kind of see it like someone trying to argue a trail in the Well's Guide is not a "real" OHV trail. Sort of hard to do when you have published materials on the trail.



Document the history of how long these trails have been in existance, show minimal impact, which you say is not doing enough, but when the anti-OHV do it you say they have done there job? I would say that consitutes confusing.

No. You are confusing yourself. They have documented evidence of trail abuse. I don't see how providing pictures of guys wheeling, presumably not abusing the trail, furthers our argument? That "some" people can do it right? No duh. Who wouldn't assume that anyhow? That is why we need a history of cleanups and working with the BLM on trail issues. This demonstrates how cognizant we are of the impact of OHV use, and our effort to mitigate said impact.



As for the damage done by one of there own, he admitted to several people and is not shy at hiding or at least wasn't in the past. You can also see signs of damage by anti-OHV recently. When the tree incident happened, the so called BLM Volunteer (a tag line the person who painted the cabin with a do not paint on the walls used to use) took parts of the cabin and made make shift sign telling people to stay out. Not sure if the guy would have the guts to admit these things again, but he has in the past.

lol...yea. Good luck with that.

John_P
01-17-2007, 12:21 PM
If John and I decide to have a heated debate, thats fine; we're two turds out in the field arguing over who smells the worst...

Ic an accept that!


Instead of John talking about the lack of quality in the data, he should compile something meaningful and give it to her to help the cause...

My list...

1. Do we have published sources denoting these trails? Mapping them for recreational use? Trail guides?

2. Do we have a HISTORICAL record of recreation use estimates for each trail (hard numebrs)? How far back does that record go? What does the trend look like? If an increase is evident, how will we argue that despite the increase we can mitigate damage due to increased use?

3. Do we have examples or data that demonstrates that closure here would impact other areas? Again, hard numbers would be great...soemthing to the effect of:

Use of trail A at time X was 100
Adjacent trail B at time X was 100
Closure of trail A at time Y
Increase in adjacent trail B at time Y was 200

4. Do we have documentation of the last clean up out at FJ? Maybe on some of the trails said abuses took place? Most importantly, can we estbalish a verfied record of cleanups thoughout the years?

5. Do we have retail and economic data that would link recreation in this area to local businesses?

6. There may be some scientific data on the impact of hiking trails in areas where there were previously no trials. it is information such that, that can be informative.

7. One way, in my mind to possibly challenge errosion claims is to compare analyses between areas where OHV trails exist, only hiking trails exist, and where they do not...if they are similar, it would be hard to argue that OHV impacts errosion significantly.

John_P
01-17-2007, 12:43 PM
Comments on my list are welcome..

rockwerks
01-17-2007, 01:19 PM
The only thing I have is that book that everyone has with some of the local trails in it... I know it has the cabins, marinez canyon etc, but don't know that it has the harder core stuff... Its been out for a few years, could we use that as a start.

Is there any old data on this server or the old yahoo groups that is time stamped and could be compiled... Is it too circumstantial. If I'm pointed to or given data I can and will organize it, if Sandee thinks its something that will help.

Some of that data, if it survives, might also provide us with "use" although for sure it will not even come close... That said it could represent what this one group has been involved in.

For number three, we might want to look at the rubicon etc... have there been closures there that have resulted in increased traffic damage else where... I don't totally understand how we use that to our benefit though.


Number 5... Not a bad idea... Not sure how much financial data these companies would be willing to disclose... but there are a number of large and smaller shops making a living off of 4wheelin... its going to be hard to put a % on it that is directly associated with FJ, but we can make a broader argument regarding the activity.

With number 7 we'd also have to compare surfaces... few people are hicking the lines we drive through LW... so the surfaces are different...

Don't know... If someone can get me data I'll do my best to organize it...

approaching it along the lines of icreased use on other area trails is a good approach.. the more open trails the less the overall impact on each...Id also suggest we might volunteer to give up one obstacle (firehole etc) to show concern in the glyphs, and figure a way to divert traffic around

John_P
01-17-2007, 01:32 PM
What is the most common form of reporting our side to the BLM??

Should we create a report?


The only thing I have is that book that everyone has with some of the local trails in it... I know it has the cabins, marinez canyon etc, but don't know that it has the harder core stuff... Its been out for a few years, could we use that as a start.

Good. We need to list these publications in an organized matter, with author, pub year, title and publisher.



Is there any old data on this server or the old yahoo groups that is time stamped and could be compiled... Is it too circumstantial. If I'm pointed to or given data I can and will organize it, if Sandee thinks its something that will help.

Dates, location, number of volunteers, clubs and government agencies involved, and pictures would be ideal.

For example, mcyinart organized a cleanup at the coves and did so by contacting some of the Tonto folks...



Some of that data, if it survives, might also provide us with "use" although for sure it will not even come close... That said it could represent what this one group has been involved in.

Data from pictures would just be pure speculation. The use data I am talking about are usually averages per time period sort of stuff. BLM may have this data already.



For number three, we might want to look at the rubicon etc... have there been closures there that have resulted in increased traffic damage else where... I don't totally understand how we use that to our benefit though.

I would prefer it be an Arizona example. This assumes there is sufficient archival data to substantiate the claim that closing trails increases impact in adjacent areas.



Number 5... Not a bad idea... Not sure how much financial data these companies would be willing to disclose... but there are a number of large and smaller shops making a living off of 4wheelin... its going to be hard to put a % on it that is directly associated with FJ, but we can make a broader argument regarding the activity.

We might be able to estimate this impact if we had the number of visitors to the area for a given year. I am not a financial guy, but they are always writing articles that say "tourism brought in X number of dollars last year"...if you could generate a similar estimate...that would be cool.



With number 7 we'd also have to compare surfaces... few people are hicking the lines we drive through LW... so the surfaces are different...

Do we even have reports to look at?

John_P
01-17-2007, 01:35 PM
approaching it along the lines of icreased use on other area trails is a good approach.. the more open trails the less the overall impact on each...

The idea came from members here...I always hear this claim...it makes sense, but we need numbers to justify the "claim".

My1stJeep
01-17-2007, 01:36 PM
John you are out there as far as you have ever been. I am just pointing out a simple fact, that when you read something that is green through and through you always believe it at face value. When on OHV person says they are going to put together a similar document including their point of view with facts to back it up you call it into question. It is never good enough for you and you end up attacking them with your verbiage instead of truly questioning it.

We are trying to get people together to find out what facts we have documention on. Yes it includes pictures of clean ups(since this is an example of how we are being stewards of the land) and anything else. And when we say anything we mean anything, until everyone comes to the table we have no idea what facts we truly have for each an every trail we would like to save. So why when a brain storming session begins do you have to take a negative approach? I am not going to even respond to your each point as it would take a novel to get it through to you the point being made. You are reading it and not taking a devils advocate approach but a very negative and argumentative one when you should be looking at with your opinion and asking how can I help? Being so argumentative is not helping the situation.

Again historical maps (published is better I agree, and if you had made that suggestion to try and locate historical maps that have been published would have made sense rather than I don't see how they will help) can show the length of time that a trail has existed and thereby help negate claims that it is a new trail. A previous post explained that, but seems that you never responded to that one so I am not sure if you saw it or not. Each of the things mentioned will help and as people bring them to the table we can find out what we have and what we have to work with. Then from there proceed with what we need to still get, but if we don't have the initial meetings where do you propose we start?

Again suggestions that we use books, and hard numbers that we can verify are great, but too bad you had to start it off in such a negative fashion before you got there. As for errosion I never said that the OHV's may not have an impact, but why do we have to just accept it an accusation without proof? You said a "not me" attitude will not work, never said not me, just said why are we not taking all things including mother nature into account? If the errosion is not across or part of the trail it need to be looked at closer, and are we sure the errosion they speak of is? Upon closer look we can determine if the trail has any responsibility for the errosion and if anything can be done to mitigate. Often working with the land management organization to alter the path of the trail and helping to put plants in the area can naturally correct any excessive errosion of the trail is deemed to be adding to the factors of the errosion. However this is something that can be mitigated and we need proof that the errosion they speak of are caused by the traffic on the trail.

As for dry firewood, how much drier can you get than a cabin wall of wood that is that old? Sorry you comment here does not fly. You are saying that a hiker would look for dry wood on the ground and not take from the cabin, but an OHV person would take from the cabin and not the ground? That makes not sense. Why would it not be assumed that they would both be forging for the same type of wood? In addition, what if we had someone come forth that had knowledge from many years ago, that would show that indeed water flowed through the cabin and was a major factor in the deteriation of the cabin? Just a question, would that be good enough if someone who lived there came forth to offer proof of that or would that not fly? Just curious...

So no presenting a "not me" attitude has never been the idea it was merely to show you that you seem to just jump on the green side as fact and tear down the OHV side. You seem to forget that we do have proof that in other cases nation wide these green groups have lied and planted false evidence in order to get their way, so while you may not carry a can of oil, does not mean someone else does not. If you are staying out there for days yo might have cooking oil that got spilled and was anything done to ensure those oils spots were from vehicle oil and not cooking oil? Again just curious why we take it at face value. Now I don't have the resources to validate that either, but it is a possibility. We are not looking to do anything but present facts, things that we can back up.

The process that is being started here is no different than the one we and I mean we as several members of this club stepped up to the plate for the White Tanks and the end result was a document of facts, a trail inventory and mitigation for any issues that we know might come up and we won. At this time OHV is going to be an approved activity within the park boundaries. They are quite a ways off in getting it built, but we did work with them, within the system and we as a team pulled it off. That whole process started off with the same type meetings and in the end netted us a nice document and saving our trails out there. It was also because people gave suggestions and did not bash those doing the work.

John_P
01-17-2007, 01:40 PM
When I get into a fight...my assumption is that enemy "can"...until I prove him wrong. Fewer surprises that way. :)

rockwerks
01-17-2007, 01:42 PM
The idea came from members here...I always hear this claim...it makes sense, but we need numbers to justify the "claim".

it is common sense, if you have 20 trails in the area and 200 vehicles each weekend on average use the trails. closing 5 trails would increase the traffic by 25% on the remaining trails......and increased the impact on the remaining trails.

Our approach should be to keep the trails open and divert around the culturally important areas. This will minimize impact and still provide needed access to the cultural sites needed by the disabled.

and as the areas grows the trails in the system become even more important (thinking out loud)

1BLKJP
01-17-2007, 01:42 PM
John, Yes most of the trails out there are listed in trail guide publications that are regularly sold by 4Wheelers, 4WheelParts etc..... That really brings us no additional credible evidence because as far as the BLM is concerned if a trail was inventoried as of the last evaluation then it is considered a trail for all intensive purposes. That being said however is not a gaurantee that it will remain open. I can't remember which it was (Jawbreaker I believe) that Francisco sited in his emergency closure that there was no way that trail could be reasonably traversed by an off road vehicle. Well that trail was being traversed by miners for how many ever years before that. That's why it was listed as a trail. The same could be said for H2H, but it's definitely traversable by mine and numberous other members rigs. What we have to show is that our trails are being used and used responsibly. IE why good pictures can help our cause. IMO the publicity that a trail receives from being in a "Trail Guide" is not good for us. That puts more traffic on a trail than it needs and lends to people that are not built for a trail to try and traverse the trail which can lead to the destruction of said trail.

If we are to bring an additional route that has never been inventoried before we have to show our position on that route so that it can be inventoried now. That is why we are working on our own preferred alternative for the FJ area. We need to load up with information so that when the BLM takes it all under consideration they do have our versions of how we responsibly recreate on a certain trail and weigh that with the oppositions version of why we shouldn't recreate on a certain trail. For years and years the Tucson Field Office has not been held to a level of partnership with OHV as they have with Environmental concerns. We are now holding them to task and it can help us in the end, but we must be persistent and give them any information that we can to support our cause. There is a place in the wide open spaces of Arizona for the Wilderness and the recreationists to co-habitate. We just have to make sure that we can overprove our reason for existence.

As far as the evidence that they are pointing to in that article from Jason at the Wilderness Coalition. I have heard first hand and so have others on here that Tom Taylor was the one that damaged the cabin in the past. Tom Taylor is the one the "BLM Volunteer" that tore pieces off of the cabin to make the sign about the tree that fell down (Which Jason of the Wilderness Coalition did not know about when he was sitting right next to Mr. Taylor at a recent meeting). Of which he was also making incorrect staments about the tree being alive. Which were taken to task when Chris worked tirelessly on Francisco and Patrick to put together a group to go out and cut that tree up to move it out of the way of the trail itself. The signs they have of the destruction of the cabin have been proven to the BLM to have been caused by erosion from flooding of the trail and not from human causes. It's hard to refute pictures of oil spills and vehicles leaks as we all know it does happen and at times is not cleaned up properly. However they mention 20 instances in 34 years of inspecting the area. 1 spill every 1.7 years many of which probably occurred when the trail was still used for it's initial purposes. Would this have not happened if the trail was closed? No, but one of our major points of interest with the Environmentalists on this is that if they close a trail to motorized, they better close it to all forms of recreational traffic. If an area is damaged from any number of causes then no one should be in there period. Not just us.

My1stJeep
01-17-2007, 01:44 PM
approaching it along the lines of icreased use on other area trails is a good approach.. the more open trails the less the overall impact on each...Id also suggest we might volunteer to give up one obstacle (firehole etc) to show concern in the glyphs, and figure a way to divert traffic around

100% correct. I took a class on this and that was one of the very suggestions about land use. That as our sport continues to grow over use on a few trails will cause much greater affects, it would rather be better to spread out the OHV users to more trails and lesson the affects with less traffic on each.

Again there is mitigation for almost every issue. Just an example: If you have a long down hill decent, and it is creating errosion, alter the trail to perform switchbacks and plant some vegitation to take hold along the errosion path to stop it. It is tried and proven method.

In this instance finding a way to ensure we don't encrouch on the petroglyphs is probably going to be key if we want to save the trail. Not exaclty sure how we would, so suggestions on this would be GREATLY welcomed. Maybe some signage pointing them out and their historical value? If placed in the right spot it not only educates OHV users and hikers, but would keep OHV traffic from getting too close. Just something else they mentioned in that class about the use of signage.

John_P
01-17-2007, 01:55 PM
I am not naive to think that because a trail is in a published guide, it cannot be closed. However, the presence of the trail in the guide establishes a broader acknowlegdment of the trails existence. That is, outside of what some local has to say.

And...if a trail was not on the last inventory, but is broadly acknowledged, then that simply reflects the fact that the previous inventory is out of date...something we want to accomplish anyhow. No?

And the fact that it is braodly acknowledged lends itself nicely to being included in the current RMP. No?

Sure...lets include GPS and pictures to clearly define the route...but if possible, lets give that route some broader legitimacy as well.

You can't have it both ways either...Inventoried trails are public knowledge and keeping them a "secret" doesn't benefit the people you represent.



Environmentalists on this is that if they close a trail to motorized, they better close it to all forms of recreational traffic. If an area is damaged from any number of causes then no one should be in there period. Not just us.

Good luck trying to argue for that...it has been WELL documented (as I just did a fairly thorough search through ASU scientific journals) that motorized recreation is harsher than hiking...sometimes on par with bicycles and hroseback riding, but that depends on the intensity of use.

If I were arguing the other side...I would take you to task on that one.

rockwerks
01-17-2007, 01:59 PM
We can actually layout the trails to enhance the locations of the petroglyph's

like you said by using signage and historical markers in front of and behind those areas

1BLKJP
01-17-2007, 02:15 PM
Good luck trying to argue for that...it has been WELL documented (as I just did a fairly thorough search through ASU scientific journals) that motorized recreation is harsher than hiking...sometimes on par with bicycles and hroseback riding, but that depends on the intensity of use.

If I were arguing the other side...I would take you to task on that one.

This truly is what the pure environmentalist want for an area. When they talk about prong horns and other species needing to recover they are not wanting anyone in an area. When the CBD wants a closure they want everyone out. They are pretty good on that. Now the Wilderness Coalition does not have same goals and still wants to be treated on par with the CBD. The last meeting that Jason was at it was brought to him that if he wanted Martinez closed then it needed to be close to everyone. That means him, me, Tom Taylor everyone. Patrick was pretty much in agreement with Chris on that point and then Jason started back pedaling. There are many ways that mitigation can be used to protect an asset. We are starting to come to the table with these methods and they can work and have proven to have worked.

westy
01-17-2007, 02:18 PM
What about historical information/data on old mining routes and access points - Does anyone have this sort of information or know where it can be found at?

I've looked into it briefly and the obvious trails such as Martinez, Ajax and H2H were old mining routes...but others must fall into this category as well. This would serve as proving these trails have existed long before the sport of 4wheeling -

1BLKJP
01-17-2007, 02:22 PM
What about historical information/data on old mining routes and access points - Does anyone have this sort of information or know where it can be found at?

I've looked into it briefly and the obvious trails such as Martinez, Ajax and H2H were old mining routes...but others must fall into this category as well. This would serve as proving these trails have existed long before the sport of 4wheeling -

Yes, this information does exist and I believe the last route inventories were back in the early eighties or late seventies. I personally don't have any of these maps that show exact mining routes, but I do know they exist.

Sandee McCullen
01-17-2007, 02:24 PM
Guys we can't even agree on the data that we may or may not want to present to Sandee that she may or may not want to use... We need to find a way to get on the same page. We're sphincter deep on the sit and spin and getting no where...

If there is data out there, I'll be happy to organize it... but I don't have time do engage in the mining to extract it, nor the access to it in its raw form.

Guys......... we are asked to present an OHV Transportation PLAN with substantive data supporting why the trail SHOULD NOT BE CLOSED. This can consist of almost anything other than: "My family has wheeled here for 30 years"; "This is my favorite trail"..... etc.
Pictures, maps, HISTORY including prior permits or activities, the changes in the OHV activity, numbers but not necessarily EXACT counts on any given day, ........... all this is considered "substantive" in some way. We have a COMPLETE INVENTORY and a COMPLETE Route EVALUATION of ALL trails. We already know if it's in a wash or uplands; is it in a wildlife corridor; does it have T&E or cultural issues; riparian; erosive issues; who uses it and how much......... light, med, high; ................. we can RE-use this data as well as add our SPECIALTY
DATA. Please stop picking issues apart. If you don't like the planning.......... get out. If you want to be a part of it please bring whatever information you feel will help us prove "no significant impact" and validation of the use. It's not a hard deal. We may use ALL data, we may use only some of it.
WE ARE DEVELOPING A SOLID TRANSPORTATION PLAN TO GIVE TO THE BLM to allow them to have DATA FROM BOTH SIDES TO ALLOW THEM TO BALANCE THE DATA AND JUSTIFY THEIR FINAL DESIGNATION. I don't want this PLAN to come from me.......... it needs to come from ALL of us. .......... this will also include ATV and dirt bike info. and data. We MUST JOIN TOGETHER.

Believe me the enviros are following this thread and are laughing their butts off. THEY HAVE ORGANIZATION............. What do you think AZVJC looks like to them???

John_P
01-17-2007, 02:28 PM
Guys......... we are asked to present an OHV Transportation PLAN with substantive data supporting why the trail SHOULD NOT BE CLOSED. This can consist of almost anything other than: "My family has wheeled here for 30 years"; "This is my favorite trail"..... etc.
Pictures, maps, HISTORY including prior permits or activities, the changes in the OHV activity, numbers but not necessarily EXACT counts on any given day, ........... all this is considered "substantive" in some way. We have a COMPLETE INVENTORY and a COMPLETE Route EVALUATION of ALL trails. We already know if it's in a wash or uplands; is it in a wildlife corridor; does it have T&E or cultural issues; riparian; erosive issues; who uses it and how much......... light, med, high; ................. we can RE-use this data as well as add our SPECIALTY
DATA. Please stop picking issues apart. If you don't like the planning.......... get out. If you want to be a part of it please bring whatever information you feel will help us prove "no significant impact" and validation of the use. It's not a hard deal. We may use ALL data, we may use only some of it.
WE ARE DEVELOPING A SOLID TRANSPORTATION PLAN TO GIVE TO THE BLM to allow them to have DATA FROM BOTH SIDES TO ALLOW THEM TO BALANCE THE DATA AND JUSTIFY THEIR FINAL DESIGNATION. I don't want this PLAN to come from me.......... it needs to come from ALL of us. .......... this will also include ATV and dirt bike info. and data. We MUST JOIN TOGETHER.

Believe me the enviros are following this thread and are laughing their butts off. THEY HAVE ORGANIZATION............. What do you think AZVJC looks like to them???


Is some of this data in a spreadsheet format?

May I have a copy if it is?

westy
01-17-2007, 02:31 PM
How about information, pictures and data to support large scale annual 4x4 events such as TTORA's annual AZRocks or the Bronco Stampede held annually in Florence Junction.

People come from across the US, clean-ups are held, local business (restaurants,bars, gas stations and 4x4 shops) all benefit greatly from these events.

RufftyTuffty
01-17-2007, 03:14 PM
Well if they can hang out here...i'm sure we can do the same.

http://www.azwild.org/

Also found this on their site from 2005 !!!

"Agua Fria National Monument, which received a “C” for visitor management and law enforcement because it has only one ranger and no formal public education or interpretation program for a monument that is suffering from illegal off-road vehicle use. "

And this is a letter they did for a 66 page report on Aqua Fria

"Kathy Pedrick
Agua Fria NM Manager
Phoenix Field Office
21605 N. 7th Ave.
Phoenix, AZ 85027
Dear Kathy Pedrick:
The Sierra Club Grand Canyon Chapter and the Arizona Wilderness Coalition (AWC) thank you for this opportunity to offer comments on the Agua Fria National Monument, we hope that our comments are informative and helpful in the ongoing scoping process. We have been developing our wilderness proposals for the monument and have begun to learn and appreciate the outstanding resource values that the Agua Fria NM has to offer. With the start of this planning process the AWC is excited to work with your staff in a collaborative effort to develop wilderness alternatives for the Agua Fria National Monument.
In this time before the scoping meetings there are a few things we would like to bring to your attention that we feel will have significant ramifications for the entire planning process. In our research we have realized that certain lands in the Agua Fria National Monument have been acquired by the BLM since the last Resource Management Plan in 1988. Under the USDI BLM Wilderness Inventory Handbook H-6310, in section .06(B) “All lands acquired through exchange shall undergo a wilderness inventory.” Also in section 1.06 (D) it is outlined that lands that have “…new or supplemental information regarding resource uses and condition…” should be inventoried for wilderness characteristics. The January 2000 Agua Fria NM proclamation is the new “…information regarding resource uses…”. An integral part of the wilderness inventory process is differentiating roads from routes. The Phoenix BLM has done a route inventory, but this inventory did not collect information with the intention of differentiating roads from routes based on the definition of a road as outlined in H.R. 94-1163 page 17, 1976 and explained in the handbook H-6310-.13 (A) 1., “The word ‘roadless’ refers to the absence of roads which have been improved and maintained by mechanical means to insure relatively regular and

Arizona Wilderness Coalition 2002 62
continuous use. A way maintained solely by the passage of vehicles does not constitute a road.”
The Arizona Wilderness Coalition believes it would be misleading and ethically questionable, if not legal to produce a map showing all routes and roads in an area without first legally defining roads. Showing the public a map of all the routes and asking them which ones they want open is not what the BLM is legally mandated to do. In the January 2000 Agua Fria National Monument Proclamation it clearly states, “For the purpose of protecting the objects identified above, all motorized and mechanized vehicle use off road will be prohibited, except for emergency or authorized administrative purposes.” This means that all routes existing at the time of the proclamation that didn’t meet the definition of a road should now be closed. There is no evidence that management has followed this mandate to date. Furthermore, from a legal perspective it would be pointless for the BLM to go to the expense of producing a map of all of the routes in the Agua Fria NM and to display it to citizens without using the FLPMA definition of a road as stated above.
The Arizona Wilderness Coalition believes the BLM should be defining roads using the only legal definition given to them by congress, as quoted above. The protection of the monument objects should be the number one priority of the BLM, not providing or identifying recreational opportunities for Off Road Vehicle use through a route inventory process. Addressing this priority and adequately managing our National Monuments can be achieved without sacrificing the BLM’s multiple use philosophy. Multiple use does not dictate that all uses must occur within a given area. The art of multiple use management is to be able to determine the appropriate mix of uses for a given area. The proclamation clearly prohibits motorized and mechanized vehicle use off of roads. To continue to inventory off road opportunities in the monument would be a waste of time and resources – for the BLM and everyone involved. We expect that the BLM will see the open house meetings as an opportunity to inform the public of the terms of the proclamations and to ensure them that there are other lands in the Phoenix resource area that can and do provide for Off Road Vehicle opportunities.
The Arizona Wilderness Coalition thanks the BLM for this opportunity to offer comments and is available to answer any questions you may have.
Please acknowledge that you have received and processed this letter by contacting us through mail, phone, or e-mail.
Sincerely,


Jason Williams
Arizona Wilderness Coalition
Central Mountains/Sonoran Region
AND
Julie Sherman

Arizona Wilderness Coalition 2002 63
Sierra Club Grand Canyon Chapter
CC: Elaine Zelinski
AZ BLM State Director
Carl Rountree
AZ BLM Associate State Director
Ken Mahoney
NLCS"
~Mike

Tom Jacobson
01-17-2007, 03:49 PM
In this instance finding a way to ensure we don't encrouch on the petroglyphs is probably going to be key if we want to save the trail. Not exaclty sure how we would, so suggestions on this would be GREATLY welcomed. Maybe some signage pointing them out and their historical value? If placed in the right spot it not only educates OHV users and hikers, but would keep OHV traffic from getting too close. Just something else they mentioned in that class about the use of signage.


Propose that said signage also will include a mandatory fee $$ collection box and I'm positive the issue with us "disturbing the aura of the land" will go away.

(Sorry...my cynical side took over the keyboard for a minute)

Tom

Tom Jacobson
01-17-2007, 03:53 PM
How about information, pictures and data to support large scale annual 4x4 events such as TTORA's annual AZRocks or the Bronco Stampede held annually in Florence Junction.

People come from across the US, clean-ups are held, local business (restaurants,bars, gas stations and 4x4 shops) all benefit greatly from these events.


Actually, I think this might be some very interesting evidence. Sandee mentioned she has event reports from several of the past ASA jamborees, rock crawling events and whatever else has taken place in the FJ area. It sounded like these all gave favorable reviews of the OHV activity (large scale) for those weekends...from crowd management, to post-run environmental impact assessments. Should be good evidence for us.

Despite what I may be saying on here, I plan to drink a big cup of **** just before the meeting starts so I can listen and digest what those with the most direct information have to say!

Tom

Tom Jacobson
01-17-2007, 03:57 PM
Oh man, the **** above???? Can only imagine what some of you are plugging in to fill those blanks right now! ;-)

Actually was S T F U

Sean K.
01-17-2007, 07:12 PM
I believe I have some old 4wd magazines that might detail trails like Martinez loop and Upper Woodpecker.....but they are from the mid to late 90s. I'm betting others do too.....whether or not they'd be beneficial since they are well after the 88 RMP, I do not know.

Should I spend some time trying to dig them up?

As for the AZWild letter Mike posted......that should scare the **** out of all of us. I'm not exactly sure though.....I seem to remember when the inventory was going on with PHX BLM that the area in the monument was to be inventoried....but most of that was just dirt roads leading to old, historic sites and were generally very easy dirt roads. If they are talking about the actual trails west of the 17, completely different story.

Sean

westy
01-17-2007, 07:47 PM
In regard to Sean's post above. I know I have some old 4wd magazines from the mid 90s with old trail reports of Martinez, Highway to Hell and probably some other trails. I'm pretty sure I even have one with the competitions from Woodpecker as well.

Let us know if these would be helpful??

westy
01-17-2007, 08:06 PM
I was reading some other forums regarding the FJ route planning and came across this (post #3) regarding United Four Wheel Drive Association -

http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3901
http://www.ufwda.org/landuse.htm

"Has anybody contacted Carla (the full time lawyer) at United about this? That is what she is there for."
http://www.ufwda.org/landuse.htm

Sandee McCullen
01-17-2007, 08:20 PM
I believe I have some old 4wd magazines that might detail trails like Martinez loop and Upper Woodpecker.....but they are from the mid to late 90s. I'm betting others do too.....whether or not they'd be beneficial since they are well after the 88 RMP, I do not know.

Should I spend some time trying to dig them up?

As for the AZWild letter Mike posted......that should scare the **** out of all of us. I'm not exactly sure though.....I seem to remember when the inventory was going on with PHX BLM that the area in the monument was to be inventoried....but most of that was just dirt roads leading to old, historic sites and were generally very easy dirt roads. If they are talking about the actual trails west of the 17, completely different story.

Sean

No Sean............. I have the authorization permits as well as the post reports from all the Jamboree's in the mid - late 90's. Thanks for the thought.

What I don't have in my hands are copies of the flyers and information for the workgroups that did "oil clean ups" with the new PeatSorb and PIG pad products. I'd like to be able to include our outreach for this kind of mitigation if possible. We can do a writeup on it but actual flyers advertising them would help. My computer crashed between then and now.

I have pictures and info on the big cleanup at Annihalator a couple of years ago but nothing from Martinez and LW.

Sandee McCullen
01-17-2007, 08:35 PM
I defintely plan to be at the Mesa meeting. I may not understand exactly how this case of ours is going to be put together, but I will bring this:

2)An OPEN MIND...

And will LISTEN.

Sandee, I can't promise this, but I may be able to get a portable projector from work to bring to the meeting. We could plug your computer into it and that way, share the maps, pics, whatever everyone brings much more easily with everyone. (Provided there is a nice clear wall to project onto...or someone has a screen). If you've got the capability, and there is wireless service inside the restaurant, there are also a couple good online sat-map and topo map services that actually show the trails fairly well, too.

In the meantime...any specific pics that would be good to illustrate the areas of concern? Like the petroglyphs in LWP and UWP? I'm sure we've all got pics of our rigs on the obstacles nearby the 'glyphs, but I know I've never taken detail pics of them by themselves.

I won't be wheeling between now and the meetings...anyone else???

Tom


I have a projector and will have it at the meetings. One computer can portray the evaluation data.......... the other, I (or someone) can type in data to eventually be a part of the PLAN itself. I haven't been able to do wireless at either of the sites we're meeting at in the past............

Thank you for your comment re "OPEN MIND"> If everyone cannot come with an open mind........... please don't come. We do not have the time or ability to enter into "I think, I want" issues. There WILL be compromise. OHV is NOT the only user of public lands.

Once we compile "data" we will then pick/choose/decide how much data or what data is needed in the plan itself.

Also remember we are not here to lie, fabricate, argue or, at this time, CARE if the trail is legal under the 1988 RMP. This is planning from an What's On The Ground inventory that was mandated by Washington to do as a base for DESIGNATION. THAT is what we are doing. Showing data for reasons NOT to close due to environmental, resource, or conflict reasons. Please don't keep harping on whether your pictures, maps or articles are from AFTER 1988. IT DOESN'T MATTER.

I propose we start with the Alternative D map which is the "OPEN evaluation". I will have all three maps at the table but the "tweeners" map (Alternative C) is a bit to the environmental side in my opinion so if we use the OPEN which is probably equally opposite of the environmental alternative it gives us room to negotiate.

RufftyTuffty
01-17-2007, 09:10 PM
........................

PMFG!ItsaGP
01-17-2007, 09:12 PM
In the meantime...any specific pics that would be good to illustrate the areas of concern? Like the petroglyphs in LWP and UWP? I'm sure we've all got pics of our rigs on the obstacles nearby the 'glyphs, but I know I've never taken detail pics of them by themselves.
Tom
Just so happens, I have several detailed 'glyph pics from UWP (11/05). If y'all want to use them youre more then welcome. Give me an email addy to send them too, and I will.

Sean K.
01-18-2007, 04:35 AM
Also remember we are not here to lie, fabricate, argue or, at this time, CARE if the trail is legal under the 1988 RMP. This is planning from an What's On The Ground inventory that was mandated by Washington to do as a base for DESIGNATION. THAT is what we are doing. Showing data for reasons NOT to close due to environmental, resource, or conflict reasons. Please don't keep harping on whether your pictures, maps or articles are from AFTER 1988. IT DOESN'T MATTER.



So, if the 88 RMP doesn't matter, what's the cut off date......when the route inventories started/ended or what's on the ground today (Jan. 07)? I think we all know there's some "differences" between the inventory and now. Showing up with something not on the inventory wouldn't be helpful to our cause if you know what I mean.

Sean

rockwerks
01-18-2007, 06:24 AM
So, if the 88 RMP doesn't matter, what's the cut off date......when the route inventories started/ended or what's on the ground today (Jan. 07)? I think we all know there's some "differences" between the inventory and now. Showing up with something not on the inventory wouldn't be helpful to our cause if you know what I mean.

Sean

yep whats on the ground now.............took ya a while to get that huh LOL:D ;)

John_P
01-18-2007, 06:53 AM
Does anyone have an example plan or previous plan I can read? I would like to understand the "nature" of the document to be submitted a bit more.

Thanks.

Sandee McCullen
01-18-2007, 07:06 AM
So, if the 88 RMP doesn't matter, what's the cut off date......when the route inventories started/ended or what's on the ground today (Jan. 07)? I think we all know there's some "differences" between the inventory and now. Showing up with something not on the inventory wouldn't be helpful to our cause if you know what I mean.

Sean

We have ONLY the inventoried trails to work with. If there are additional trails they will need to be submitted for evaluation as new or additional trails............ NEPA will need to be done and the entire "designation" process will happen. We will not be doing this now.

rockwerks
01-18-2007, 07:28 AM
We have ONLY the inventoried trails to work with. If there are additional trails they will need to be submitted for evaluation as new or additional trails............ NEPA will need to be done and the entire "designation" process will happen. We will not be doing this now.

OOps my badd:D

RufftyTuffty
01-18-2007, 07:51 AM
Does anyone have an example plan or previous plan I can read? I would like to understand the "nature" of the document to be submitted a bit more.

Thanks.

I don't know about 'ours' but here's a link to 'theirs'...i'm guessing.

http://www.azwild.org/resources/proposals.php#proposals

I think we need before and after monsoon pics to show little to no difference.

Also really old pics and new pics of the same area again to show what 20 years of wheelin has done...good examples only :)

Then pics of family events, campouts, bbq's, also pics of kids preferabiliy laughing...etc...etc.

~Mike

westy
01-18-2007, 02:22 PM
The Economic importance of OHV use in Maricopa County and AZ - via 460Crawler from the Wheelingarizona board - Thanks!


found this today http://www.pr.state.az.us/partnerships/ohv/OHVEcon/8maricopa.pdf

just in maricopa ohv use generates $1.8 billion, that includes from what we spend on fuel and parts and everything between

and ohv use gives 13k people jobs

this one is for the whole state
http://www.pr.state.az.us/partnerships/ohv/OHVEcon/az_ohv_econ.pdf

ohv use generates $3.1 billion, and 37k jobs


i think those were the numbers from 2002, so the numbers for last year should be even higher with the growth for the sport.

westy
01-18-2007, 02:28 PM
In relation to both the economic importance of OHV use and ALSO how closure would increase impact greatly on other OHV areas we could use graphs and charts to depict roughly the total number of OHV areas near PHX metro area and the number of trails most used vs. closing a said amount of trails - this could be forecasted to predict how much more impact other trails or areas would recieve and also could probably tie into the economic value to a degree ? Just another idea...

My1stJeep
01-18-2007, 03:02 PM
In relation to both the economic importance of OHV use and ALSO how closure would increase impact greatly on other OHV areas we could use graphs and charts to depict roughly the total number of OHV areas near PHX metro area and the number of trails most used vs. closing a said amount of trails - this could be forecasted to predict how much more impact other trails or areas would recieve and also could probably tie into the economic value to a degree ? Just another idea...

That would be a great way to show the impact, is there anyone that would volunteer to put this together?

John_P
01-18-2007, 06:15 PM
If you can provide the data, I can setup the presentation of it.

Washington_XJ
01-20-2007, 12:40 PM
I don't know anything about the trails in arizona but I'd like to come to a meeting anyway. Whats FJ? If you tell me where that is I can fly over it and take pictures (I'm a pilot)

I can probably make the meeting on Saturday the 27th

rockwerks
01-20-2007, 12:43 PM
Florence Junction.......east of queen creek

Washington_XJ
01-20-2007, 12:49 PM
Ok, I know the area. I will see if I can get a camera and take some real aerial photographs.

k7mto
01-20-2007, 02:29 PM
Ok, I know the area. I will see if I can get a camera and take some real aerial photographs.

If you need a passenger who can show you where the trails are, I'd love to take a ride :)

Washington_XJ
01-20-2007, 05:20 PM
Let me know when and we'll grab a bite to eat and hit the skies.

k7mto
01-20-2007, 05:37 PM
I get a day off next week for working pageouts this weekend (any day but Mon or Wed) so whatever works for you.

I have GPS coords to most of the trails in FJ which should help us locate them from above, but my GPS is dead. I'll bring the coords if you have one in the plane or a handheld unit.

I'll PM you my phone number.

Washington_XJ
01-20-2007, 05:41 PM
Yeah we have GPS in the planes. I'm looking around on the google "satelite" map for places to goto and explore from the air. I might be going up tomorrow, if I do I'll deffinately fly over in that general direction and see what I can find.

Sandee McCullen
01-20-2007, 07:10 PM
Yeah we have GPS in the planes. I'm looking around on the google "satelite" map for places to goto and explore from the air. I might be going up tomorrow, if I do I'll deffinately fly over in that general direction and see what I can find.

I have inventory maps................ there are not exact GPS coordinances for each trail head but overall cross check is there. I live in Mesa if you're interested in picking one up.
Southern & Val Vista area.

Washington_XJ
01-20-2007, 07:23 PM
Looking closer at the google satellite I've tracked down a road that seems to lead off of highway 79 called "E Cottonwood Canyon Rd". Does that ring a bell anyone? This road branches off into a honeycomb of trails, I can't tell if they are Jeep worthy or if their flat. I think I may go exploring in a few days. :D

k7mto
01-20-2007, 07:59 PM
Everyone who wheels FJ is well aware of it.

Cottonwood Canyon is one of the main entrances into the FJ trail areas and there is a large parking/airdown lot at the intersection of Cottonwood Canyon and 79. Most FJ runs use this as the meeting spot and many of the trails are reached via this road.

The first few miles between 79 and the where the trails are located is open/flat area used occasionally by the National Guard for firing practice. The area where the trails are is very hilly and full of canyons and washes. Most of the trails *are* washes.

Another popular entrance is Price Rd in north Florence. It leads you to the entrance of Box Canyon. The other end of Box Canyon meets up with Cotton Wood Canyon at an area popularly known as "the intersection". From there roads lead off to other areas such as Martinez Canyon and the Coke Ovens.

Sandee McCullen
01-21-2007, 05:34 PM
Everyone who wheels FJ is well aware of it.

Cottonwood Canyon is one of the main entrances into the FJ trail areas and there is a large parking/airdown lot at the intersection of Cottonwood Canyon and 79. Most FJ runs use this as the meeting spot and many of the trails are reached via this road.

The first few miles between 79 and the where the trails are located is open/flat area used occasionally by the National Guard for firing practice. The area where the trails are is very hilly and full of canyons and washes. Most of the trails *are* washes.

Another popular entrance is Price Rd in north Florence. It leads you to the entrance of Box Canyon. The other end of Box Canyon meets up with Cotton Wood Canyon at an area popularly known as "the intersection". From there roads lead off to other areas such as Martinez Canyon and the Coke Ovens.

The there are basically 5 entrances to the BLM lands/trails.
1) Cottonwood Canyon Rd from Hwy 79, M.P. 144
2) Price Rd entrance from Florence through Box Canyon
3) FR 2 from Superior
4) Battleaxe Rd from Hwy 177
5) Mineral Mtn Rd from Hwy 60 at M.P. 215.9

Cottonwood Canyon Rd. entrance will be closed to through traffic during military maneuvers. Entry will still be open at the gate but vehicle traffic will have to follow the gasline north, northeast to the connection at Mineral Rd.

k7mto
01-21-2007, 07:08 PM
I'm aware of them, but didn't feel the need to post all of them for our new member. He's planning on doing some exploring so I thought I'd just mention the main two.

btw, we've entered through Cottonwood Canyon Rd. many times while they've been doing maneuvers. As long as you stay on the road all the way back to the farm you're fine.

Sandee McCullen
01-21-2007, 08:50 PM
I'm aware of them, but didn't feel the need to post all of them for our new member. He's planning on doing some exploring so I thought I'd just mention the main two.

btw, we've entered through Cottonwood Canyon Rd. many times while they've been doing maneuvers. As long as you stay on the road all the way back to the farm you're fine.

Things are to soon change............ the entire Army National Guard LEASED area will soon be fenced. The fence will run along the gas pipe line road and the gate across Cottonwood Canyon Rd will be locked to through traffic during live fire maneuvers.

At this time the only scheduled LIVE FIRE weekend is
March 3-4, 2007

Jan. 20/21: Maneuvers
May 5-6: Maneuvers
June 7-10 Maneuvers

However.............. watch for the flying RED FLAG noting closures as any scheduled weekend can be LIVE FIRE with no notice. I'm not sure if ASLD have given permission for complete closure during other than live fire.

Entry from Hwy 60 (Mineral Mtn Rd) is open as are the other entrances. There will still be a RED flag at the Mineral Mtn entrance but that is only posted for warning that the trails to the west of the road are closed to traffic during this time.

k7mto
01-21-2007, 09:37 PM
Thanks, Sandee. This is good info to know.

corwyyn
01-21-2007, 11:27 PM
Headed out to Box Canyon yesterday with some other Liberty owners, we had to wait at the Cottonwood Canyon parking area while the NG guys went in. They turned south toward the range on one of the roads but I was able to get a good shot of one of the guns:
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k180/corwyyn/stuff/big-gun.jpg
I'll have to keep in mind to look for the flags when I go out that way next time to see if anything is going on. Thanks for the heads-up Sandee.

rhino105
01-22-2007, 07:48 AM
I have maps handed out in the late 60's early 70's at Western Savings bank called the Western Weekend series. Apparently channel 12 aired a show by that name that was hosted by Dolan Ellis. Would these maps be useful? They are numbered and dated. They are hand drawn and a little crude, but show a lot of details.

Sandee McCullen
01-22-2007, 11:44 AM
I have maps handed out in the late 60's early 70's at Western Savings bank called the Western Weekend series. Apparently channel 12 aired a show by that name that was hosted by Dolan Ellis. Would these maps be useful? They are numbered and dated. They are hand drawn and a little crude, but show a lot of details.

Certainly can't hurt to take a look at them........... every little bit of HISTORY of our trails will support our side. Please remember, we are simply supporting "open access". BLM must, on the other side, SUPPORT WITH DOCUMENTATION, to close any trail other than an emergency closure which is suppose to be a temporary (3 yr max) closure for rehab or study.

The more data we can provide regarding past use of any trail will help us.
BTW: Thanks for the "tip". I know Dolan and am thinking he may have numerous maps or info to support our cause. I'll contact him.

Washington_XJ
01-23-2007, 01:01 AM
I typed up a basic map showing those entrances that Sandee mentioned. It looks like theres also an Uno Road entrance. I wish I had someone to go with for the first time, might help me out a little bit on direction once inside there.

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/1852/mapforfj1ac.png

Sean K.
01-23-2007, 04:13 AM
Anyone know the approximate mile marker for the Price road enterance?

Sean

BTW, I think the maps way points are off.....#2 is Price road and you've got it up near the 60....

Sandee McCullen
01-23-2007, 07:03 AM
I typed up a basic map showing those entrances that Sandee mentioned. It looks like theres also an Uno Road entrance. I wish I had someone to go with for the first time, might help me out a little bit on direction once inside there.

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/1852/mapforfj1ac.png

Don't have the MP but re the entrances off Hwy 60 the one marked as "6" is not a recognized entrance because it enters directly into the National Guard lands. (at the RR tracks).
The entrance at MP 215.9 has a flag and is the designated entry. Going south on Hwy 79 there are several entry gates but Cottonwood Canyon is the designated entry.

There are several entry points east of Mineral Mtn but most are closed to motorized. The Arizona Trail is in this area.

Re the Price Rd.......... not sure other than it's just before you enter Florence. I can probably make some calls if it's needed.

If you're able to attend the first meeting tomorrow night it may help you understand the layout of the area.

Washington_XJ
01-23-2007, 09:30 AM
Unfortunately, no. I was planning on making the Saturday meeting to say hello and learn a little bit about the area.

corwyyn
01-23-2007, 10:51 AM
Anyone know the approximate mile marker for the Price road enterance?

Sean

BTW, I think the maps way points are off.....#2 is Price road and you've got it up near the 60....
Should be right around MP137. It's 8.4 miles south of Cottonwood Canyon road, and 1/4 mile north of the Hunt Highway. If you cross the Gila you've gone too far :D Its the last turn you can make before you hit the river, and theres a double powerline that crosses the road right at Price. Hope this helps.

And speaking of the Price road entrance/Box Canyon area, when we were coming out Saturday we noticed that at the one obstacle where there is a LARGE boulder in the middle of the wash that someone had gone in and dumped a whole butt-load of rocks around it to make it easier, so easy in fact that Vern (oldhockeyvb) mentioned that he saw a Ford Fiesta back there :eek: Might be time to go do some de-rocking. Here's a pic:
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k180/corwyyn/stuff/bc-obstacle.jpg

Sean K.
01-23-2007, 10:59 AM
Thanks for the info. I may be out there Saturday and some friends are coming up from Tucson and are going in that way.

Sean

RufftyTuffty
01-23-2007, 09:33 PM
Another information source...some may know of it...some may not.

http://asa4wdc.org/content/wheeldust/current.pdf

Martinez now PERMIT ONLY?

~Mike

k7mto
01-23-2007, 09:53 PM
The easiest way to find Price Rd. is that it is just south of the RR tracks on the north end of Florence. As you crest a hill and see the town of Florence, you will shortly thereafter cross the RR tracks. Price Rd. is *immediately* on your left. As stated, if you pass the Riverbottom Saloon (great place for a burger and beer and the owner is one of us) on your left and cross the bridge over the Gila River, you've gone too far.

Sandee McCullen
01-24-2007, 07:01 AM
Another information source...some may know of it...some may not.

http://asa4wdc.org/content/wheeldust/current.pdf

Martinez now PERMIT ONLY?

~Mike

At this time Martinez Canyon is OPEN. Hopefully ALL OHV'ers will stay away from the buildings and clean up after themselves. Oil most certainly. No rock stacking and no exploring.

There are plans to gate the entrance in the near future. Access to the canyon will be by permit but no fee attached. Just a paper trail...............

Haven't figured out the process to obtain the permit yet.

More as I get it.

RufftyTuffty
01-24-2007, 07:34 AM
Yeah...i know.

What is the date of the USGS maps for that area...they have alot of mine roads & jeep trails on them?

~Mike

Sandee McCullen
01-24-2007, 01:22 PM
Yeah...i know.

What is the date of the USGS maps for that area...they have alot of mine roads & jeep trails on them?

~Mike

As of this exact moment ALL existing trails/roads are open to OHV. If we don't join together to present an OHV transportation plan to BLM to fit into their "designations" who knows how many we'll end up with. If the enviros and G&F have their way it will be the MAIN ROADS only.

The "maps" being used by BLM are what result from the "on the ground inventory" done in this area. USGS and aerials were used originally to get an idea for those doing the inventory. OHV helped identify trails also.

My1stJeep
01-24-2007, 09:37 PM
:mad: ***!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

I was going to wait until tomorrow to post, but dang I am a bit ticked off. I know FJ is in the East valley and expect that the showing there will be better, and I know some have family stuff, some have work and some have emergencies, so don't everyone start posting I had <insert reason here> to explain, however is it too much to ask that at least a few show up???? :mad:

And when I say a few, of course since Sandee organized it and volunteered to show up and take notes she was going to be there, then there were 3 guys from the TTora club, and then oh yah I was the only one from the AZVJC to show up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Like I said I know many had very valid reasons why they could not make it and this is not in any way directed at you, but I know there is more than one person in the West or Central Valley that could have attended this meeting, and for those who figured someone else would do it, or it was too much to miss your favorite show on TV, or just had to throw down a few with a buddy at your local waterhole and that was more important that this meeting, I am glad you have other interests, cause with this lack of support you can kiss your trails good bye!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

East side I hope and pray that you have a better showing and hopefully some of you West siders that couldn't make the time tonight can find the time Saturday, but to say the least I and each and everyone of us should be very dissappointed in the attendance tonight.

rockwerks
01-24-2007, 10:07 PM
Sorry I didn't make it down tonight, back went out when I slipped on ice this morning....been lying around all day...with massive pain killers........I will try to be down on Saturday.

k7mto
01-24-2007, 11:12 PM
Thanks for showing up, Chris (and Sandee and the TTORA guys). As I posted in the other thread, I'm sure the numbers for Saturdays meeting will be much better.

Gettiing beyond the poor turnout, how about some input on what you guys discussed? What data/information was provided to help our cause? This information could help spark the thought process of those planning to attend Saturday's meeting and may help it be more productive.

Tom Jacobson
01-25-2007, 06:36 AM
X2 on what Matt said above.

And just a little OT...is the food at El Galeon any good?!?!? The Saturday meeting is at 1PM, so I know a few people talking about meeting for lunch first...either there (Galeon) or something else nearby.

Sandee McCullen
01-25-2007, 07:35 AM
X2 on what Matt said above.

And just a little OT...is the food at El Galeon any good?!?!? The Saturday meeting is at 1PM, so I know a few people talking about meeting for lunch first...either there (Galeon) or something else nearby.

FOOD is terrific!!!!!!!!!!!!

rockwerks
01-25-2007, 07:37 AM
If Im able to drive Ill be there

Tom Jacobson
01-25-2007, 08:08 AM
FOOD is terrific!!!!!!!!!!!!

Awesome! I think I'll/we'll plan to get there about noon and grab some lunch before we start.

Anyone else is welcome to join!

Tom

My1stJeep
01-25-2007, 08:42 AM
Again I am not trying to get everyone to say they should have been there no matter what, having your back go out is an emergency, and I don't want everyone feeling like they have to defend themselves, as you don't. I just want people to understand that with our numbers we should have been able to garner more support in attendance than 1.

As for the conversation, the TTora guys were a wealth of knowledge on the trails. After the discussion about the reasons that are being given for closure they were looking to make some additional runs out there ASAP to do some additional fact finding to dispute things. They also brought ideas on mitigation for issue areas. They were able to discuss mitigation to some issue areas we know of and if it will or will not be able to work.

I wanted to see the maps, as Sandee has an early draft of comments that have been submitted from a group of us. It is a work in progress and I hope that can have it complete sometime this week.

Hopefully Sandee will chime in as I was only there for the last hour.

Xiled1
01-25-2007, 02:52 PM
I'm not too familiar with all the details of whats going on, but wanted to ask a question anyway. Will the sign in sheet act like a petition? Meaning, the more that sign the better?

I plan on stopping buy and signing on Sat, but I've never been to FJ so I can't help with the maps. Trying to get a few others to join me.

Sandee McCullen
01-25-2007, 03:20 PM
I'm not too familiar with all the details of whats going on, but wanted to ask a question anyway. Will the sign in sheet act like a petition? Meaning, the more that sign the better?

I plan on stopping buy and signing on Sat, but I've never been to FJ so I can't help with the maps. Trying to get a few others to join me.

NO, the sign in sheet is not a "Petition". The sign in sheets will be included in the PLAN simply to show a "wide range" of OHV enthusiasts worked on developing a plan. It doesn't matter if you KNOW the trails. Our goal is to write an "OHV Transportation Plan". This includes the data we already have, historical data, maps AND ideas re mitigation; maybe a re-route; gating vs closure; something you encountered from another area that could help here.

A lot of the information is already before us. Our goals are simply to present a PLAN to re-confirm the data from the ARS Evaluation data. The enviros do NOT like, nor approve, the ARS Evaluation process. The reason is simple: It covers NEPA to the level of closing the loopholes the enviros use when they drag EVERY plan into the courts. What BLM is asking us to do is just giving them more support when their Land Use Plans are contested by the enviros.

OHV have NEVER written a PLAN............ this will be the first time and we are including OUR fellow recreationists. CBD, Wilderness Coalition, Sierra Club, Forest Guardians etc etc have PAID employees that do nothing but write or compile plans or complaints, injunctions, or compile false documentation.

Our data will be truthful and up front................... Just a reminder. We WILL most likely lose some trails but we also have the OHV Strategy behind us that allows for "alternative routes" and/or "new routes". Some trails simply are not suitable for motorized use. There are still a BUNCH of old timers within the ranks of BLM that believe as the enviros that there should only be so many trails in a certain area. They do NOT consider the growth of the motorized recreation sport, nor do they want to acknowledge the more they close, the more damage and impact to those left open. WE must make these points in our plan. We can ask for "areas" be located and approved for such things as an "open area" or a "rock crawling AREA vs a trail". We can suggest Historical markers/interpretative signing for the numerous mines and historical buildings. We need to mention staging areas, maybe multi-use staging areas, maybe ATV routes or single track. ALL these things fit into a PLAN. Our biggest wish would be this plan be complete enough BLM would accept it as the Preferred Alternative as presented!

Washington_XJ
01-25-2007, 04:13 PM
I'll be there for noon, if I can find my way :D

Washington_XJ
01-25-2007, 05:19 PM
A little off topic, but I'm actually planning on going to Florance for part of the day saturday to break in my new rig. Anyone interested?

06GrnRubi
01-25-2007, 06:46 PM
I wasn't planning on attending Wednesday evening's meeting, as I live in Gilbert and Saturday's is more convenient for me. However, I forgot all about the meeting on Wednesday. There must be some way to send messages to everyone registered on this site, and a reminder would have been nice.

DFRacing
01-26-2007, 06:51 AM
I wasn't planning on attending Wednesday evening's meeting, as I live in Gilbert and Saturday's is more convenient for me. However, I forgot all about the meeting on Wednesday. There must be some way to send messages to everyone registered on this site, and a reminder would have been nice.

Sticky note on your computer.:D

My1stJeep
01-26-2007, 03:08 PM
Ok, here is a reminder that there is a meeting tomorrow.:D

rockwerks
01-26-2007, 03:30 PM
Ok, here is a reminder that there is a meeting tomorrow.:D


Just tried driving...........back wont let me....:( ......Ig uess the 31st is my last shot:(

06GrnRubi
01-26-2007, 03:31 PM
I also added it to the calendar on my cell phone. No excuses. I'm planning on being there.

You care, you really do care. :o

Fire Ball
01-27-2007, 11:05 AM
Just tried driving...........back wont let me....:( ......Ig uess the 31st is my last shot:(

Where do you live, need a ride

My1stJeep
01-27-2007, 08:57 PM
Just tried driving...........back wont let me....:( ......Ig uess the 31st is my last shot:(


Are you really in Flagstaff? Maybe next weekend I can swing trying to meet you with any information, if this might work for you I will talk with Sandee about borrowing the maps and information so you can review it and turn in your comments. Let me know.

rockwerks
01-27-2007, 09:02 PM
Are you really in Flagstaff? Maybe next weekend I can swing trying to meet you with any information, if this might work for you I will talk with Sandee about borrowing the maps and information so you can review it and turn in your comments. Let me know.

The only trail I have been on in that area is axle alley, I was just coming for immoral support and help anyway I could

Sandee McCullen
01-28-2007, 03:14 AM
MANY THANKS to ALL that have showed to the map/evaluation meetings. Wed. evening and to the 46 that showed to the Mesa meeting.............

I've CANCELLED the Wed, January 31st meeting as we made huge progress yesterday. With the suggestion and help of Rob from CK5 we broke into 5 groups (specific attention to Lower Woodpecker, Upper Woodpecker entrance, Woody's Wash, Overdose and Martinez). The issues were listed along with suggested mitigation for each. The remaining trails will fall within the same mitigation. I will put facts together and send out a draft Plan prior to presenting to BLM.

To those that felt they didn't contribute anything because they didn't know the specific trails.................. You were ALL "Part of the Planning". Your suggestions re mitigation is most of what we needed. We have substantive "on the ground data" from the specialists in their field. We also now have an evaluation for Lower Woodpecker & Martinez from a private biologist that will be included. THIS puts us equal to the environmentalists which will also give us equal and professional standing with BLM. We're not done yet so ANY thoughts or comments are appreciated and will be submitted as alternatives within OUR plan.

the toad
01-28-2007, 05:51 AM
Sandee,

Thanks for your efforts and for coordinating this....

It was good to see a decent turnout.

Marv

Tom Jacobson
01-28-2007, 07:18 AM
Sandee,

Thanks also for putting together the meetings.

I thought of one other thing that might be worth including to the signs, that I believe were common to the mitigation plans for all trails discussed. How about inclusion of a phone number and website for someone to call to report issues (spills, stacks, etc)? We kind of discussed trail "adoption" anyway, so if there was something brought up, at least we could form a small group of volunteers to respond quickly when either someone comes across, or even causes, a spill but are not equipped to clean it.

Tom

k7mto
01-28-2007, 07:49 AM
Sandee,

Thanks also for putting together the meetings.

I thought of one other thing that might be worth including to the signs, that I believe were common to the mitigation plans for all trails discussed. How about inclusion of a phone number and website for someone to call to report issues (spills, stacks, etc)? We kind of discussed trail "adoption" anyway, so if there was something brought up, at least we could form a small group of volunteers to respond quickly when either someone comes across, or even causes, a spill but are not equipped to clean it.

Tom


I think thats a good idea. Assuming the number is to a BLM or G&F office, they would need a way to disseminate the information to us so we could round up the volunteers to attack the issue in a timely manner.

Another idea which may/may not be feasible. The issue of spillage applies to all trails, not just those discussed above. I think signage at the main entrances would be wise and, if possible, a way to supply/dispense Peatsorb and/or Pig pads to those who may show up without them, eg a 55 gallon drum of Peatsorb which can be refilled when needed.

Sandee McCullen
01-28-2007, 08:20 AM
Sandee,

Thanks also for putting together the meetings.

I thought of one other thing that might be worth including to the signs, that I believe were common to the mitigation plans for all trails discussed. How about inclusion of a phone number and website for someone to call to report issues (spills, stacks, etc)? We kind of discussed trail "adoption" anyway, so if there was something brought up, at least we could form a small group of volunteers to respond quickly when either someone comes across, or even causes, a spill but are not equipped to clean it.

Tom

We've been working on a phone number procedure for 5 years. There's always a "reason" one of the agencies cannot do it: the number is very expensive, WHO disburses the information collected; HOW or WHO pays for the extra use of the G&F Game Theft #? yada yada. Same ole crap................ no one is willing to do anything extra. Still working on it though.

Sandee McCullen
01-28-2007, 08:23 AM
I think thats a good idea. Assuming the number is to a BLM or G&F office, they would need a way to disseminate the information to us so we could round up the volunteers to attack the issue in a timely manner.

Another idea which may/may not be feasible. The issue of spillage applies to all trails, not just those discussed above. I think signage at the main entrances would be wise and, if possible, a way to supply/dispense Peatsorb and/or Pig pads to those who may show up without them, eg a 55 gallon drum of Peatsorb which can be refilled when needed.

We need to simply encourage everyone to carry their own. Can't you imagine the mess and cost involved when the bubbas decide to spread this stuff everywhere just for the fun of it? There will be "information kiosks" at each entry (those are ready to go in now) to post "Take In-Take Out"; clean your spills; Respect our History etc..........

Washington_XJ
01-28-2007, 05:47 PM
I like everything I've seen on here so far. The information kiosks might also alert those who don't keep up with the forums and these issues to be on the look out for spills, vandalism, etc. I'm afrade I didn't know enough about the trails to really be of any use but I enjoyed attending the meeting anyway.

heatstroke
01-28-2007, 08:47 PM
MANY THANKS to ALL that have showed to the map/evaluation meetings. Wed. evening and to the 46 that showed to the Mesa meeting.............


A big thumbs up to everyone who showed! It was great to see the meeting room filled up! It was very encouraging to see people from several groups make the effort to be there. Hopefully we can continue to get the word out and all band together to keep the greenies at bay. See you guys on the trails!

Jsk8r1
01-28-2007, 10:20 PM
Will there be actual kiosks being put in with signs on them because i know that we put up all those stands and everything out at Lower Woodpecker for Francisco and they have done nothing with those still just blank stands from when we left off that day.

RokNRich
01-28-2007, 10:31 PM
Some signs were up today. The big kiosk was still blank, but there were signsalong the walking trail towards the wash.

FWIW.

Sandee McCullen
01-29-2007, 06:41 AM
Will there be actual kiosks being put in with signs on them because i know that we put up all those stands and everything out at Lower Woodpecker for Francisco and they have done nothing with those still just blank stands from when we left off that day.

National Guard put the one up at the entrance to Cottonwood Canyon from Hwy 79 a few years ago. G&F, Tammy Pike and I put up 3 cheapy ones about 5 years ago. One at the Mineral Mtn rd off Hwy 60; one at Cottonwood Canyon that Natl Guard tore down and rebuilt the nice one; and one on the south near Oracle. We HAVE 8 nice new steel kiosks ready to go up but BLM have to do NEPA first. Should be going in soon. Most likely we'll need volunteers to help along with individuals or groups adopting each kiosk to keep them up to date with information. We've done 4 at Castle Hot Springs Rd. The MGCP group will probably be working on "what to post".
I'll bug them about the "blank" kiosk. They seem to procrastinate on everything!!!
DON'T expect anything to be quick if BLM or FS are involved!!!! It's a constant battle. Actually that is part of the reason they're so far behind the 8 ball regarding OHV's.

Tom Jacobson
01-29-2007, 06:55 AM
The big kiosk at Cottonwood entrance has held up quite nicely, right? There's no blatant shotgun holes or vandalism...so that's encouraging.

I think the addition of a trash barrel at that kiosk has been much appreciated by people using the area.

rhino105
01-30-2007, 06:31 AM
I was at the meeting with the CK5 group, and was pleased with all the good stuff that came out of the meeting, but I have been thinking about some of this stuff since then. One of the biggest problems that I see in all of this never was addressed. Once all the signs are in place, gates are up and the education and information phase is over, the next step NEEDS to be enforcement, which we didn't cover at all. For the rules to be followed there must be consequences to those who break the rules. I think we need to have meetings with any law enforcement agencies with jurisdiction over the area, and the county prosecutors office and make sure they WILL punish those who violate the law out there, whether it be littering, tresspassing or destruction of property etc. We need to find out what kind of evidence is needed to prosecute, for example Martinez gets gated and we see someone winching the gate down and happen to take photos or videotape it and are willing to go to court and testify, is this sufficent to prosecute, and more importantly will they prosecute? Right now there is NO incentive at all for the morons who destroy stuff to not do it. To me it is like doing cleanups. They infuriate me (but I still do them) because we are not doing anything to stop the trashing of the desert, in fact I think it makes things worse because the people trashing it know that someone will clean up after them. There are no consequences to their actions and in fact we reward them by cleaning up their junk for them! What needs to happen is to have some of these people caught and totally slammed in court, jail time, huge fines, only then will this stuff stop. I would be willing to sit out there with a video camera and have to testify in court if the prosecutors would actually prosecute these cases. I don't really want to see heavy handed law enforcement out there, but I feel that right now it is the only way to stop some of these activities. Once these people see that there is a price to pay it may make them think twice about their destructive behavior. Let people know what the rules are then also show them they WILL be enforced.

Sandee McCullen
01-30-2007, 06:39 AM
I was at the meeting with the CK5 group, and was pleased with all the good stuff that came out of the meeting, but I have been thinking about some of this stuff since then. One of the biggest problems that I see in all of this never was addressed. Once all the signs are in place, gates are up and the education and information phase is over, the next step NEEDS to be enforcement, which we didn't cover at all. For the rules to be followed there must be consequences to those who break the rules. I think we need to have meetings with any law enforcement agencies with jurisdiction over the area, and the county prosecutors office and make sure they WILL punish those who violate the law out there, whether it be littering, tresspassing or destruction of property etc. We need to find out what kind of evidence is needed to prosecute, for example Martinez gets gated and we see someone winching the gate down and happen to take photos or videotape it and are willing to go to court and testify, is this sufficent to prosecute, and more importantly will they prosecute? Right now there is NO incentive at all for the morons who destroy stuff to not do it. To me it is like doing cleanups. They infuriate me (but I still do them) because we are not doing anything to stop the trashing of the desert, in fact I think it makes things worse because the people trashing it know that someone will clean up after them. There are no consequences to their actions and in fact we reward them by cleaning up their junk for them! What needs to happen is to have some of these people caught and totally slammed in court, jail time, huge fines, only then will this stuff stop. I would be willing to sit out there with a video camera and have to testify in court if the prosecutors would actually prosecute these cases. I don't really want to see heavy handed law enforcement out there, but I feel that right now it is the only way to stop some of these activities. Once these people see that there is a price to pay it may make them think twice about their destructive behavior. Let people know what the rules are then also show them they WILL be enforced.

We did not talk about law enforcement for several reasons. First it is not part of a Transportation Plan. Second is there is NO MONEY for law enforcement. We all know this needs to happen but from the other side when we try to get a "copper sticker" (OHV sticker) program inacted our people vote it down. We receive some dollars from a Gas Tax Fund dedicated to OHV issues but it isn't a fraction of money needed besides at this time there are none, or very few, OHV laws to be inforced. At least this is what G&F seem to want everyone to believe. Anyway....... these are issues of MANAGEMENT.......... not a transportation plan.

Re the courts.................... law enforcement simply do not have the dollars nor the time to do some. Remember, each officer that writes a citation has to also follow up as a court witness. Courts are full with cases other than "illegal dumping" so all this adds up. I know it sounds like it should work and I agree that the biggest lesson is to hit them in their pockets but until we a Plan is implemented and then education and signs it's hard to do much. As far as the law is concerned these guys have to KNOW it's illegal................... we know they know what they're doing but there has to be signs, maps or information available before courts will uphold anything.

Trash containers are another issue mentioned here....... This is an ugly issue. If we put trash dumpsters out they end up being targets for the shooters; containers for the illegal dumpers from roofing, landscaping etc. Besides this it's VERY EXPENSIVE. What is the problem with "Pack in, pack out".?

Again.............. there is a difference between a Transportation Plan and a Management Plan. We're doing a Transportation Plan which intails providing substantive data to support trails being open to OHV use. This includes mitigation methods related directly to the trail but not to adoption, cleanups, dumpsters etc. It does however include a portion of "Education". This would included recommendation of information kiosks, or specific signing with requirements, limits, level of challenge etc. These things all relate to "protection" of the resources or the impacts to the lands.

"Friends" groups or partnerships between the public and the agencies will work on "Management" issues............