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TBob
01-09-2007, 07:25 AM
owner request No trespassing

http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3823

xFallen
01-09-2007, 08:44 AM
owner request No trespassing

http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3823

That's really a loss. It's been coming for a while though since the owner has been rightfully concerned about this for quite some time.

One of the people over there suggested they enforce BLM permits. No permit is required to be on BLM land, of course. They are confusing State Trust Land with BLM managed resources.


Barry

fatbob309
01-09-2007, 09:15 AM
That sucks...
Im glad I was able to see the place before it got trashed.

corwyyn
01-09-2007, 10:59 AM
Thats too bad, since that is a really fun run :( TBob, can you keep us updated on any possible clean-ups or other volunteer work they may be doing/wanting out there?

TBob
01-09-2007, 01:50 PM
Ok - looks like they are allreay talking about doing something. I'll post once I hear something.


Thats too bad, since that is a really fun run :( TBob, can you keep us updated on any possible clean-ups or other volunteer work they may be doing/wanting out there?

Wind_Danzer
01-09-2007, 03:08 PM
That stinks. Keep me informed of any clean ups as I have not gotten out there either and wanted to sometime.

Tom Jacobson
01-09-2007, 04:14 PM
That sucks...
Im glad I was able to see the place before it got trashed.


So you must have seen them a few years ago then?? :( :(

Unfortunate? Yes

Surprising? Hardly

I really haven't been wheeling all that long, but still in the past 8yrs or so, it's sad what has happened to the coke ovens as well as the cabins and mill on Martinez. The very first trail I ever went on was a run out to the coke ovens in, I think, 1996. Didn't even have a jeep back then. Rode passenger in a friends "huge" XJ (6" lift, 33's) on a ASA Jambo weekend. That oven with the green carpet and loft was in really good shape back then (ie. you probably could have considered sleeping on the carpet without picking up a disease).

Shame...but don't blame the owner.

Tom

oldhockeyvb
01-09-2007, 05:51 PM
It does not appear to me that the ovens are on private land, therefore they cannot be closed by private land owners. The ovens are adjacent to private land but are in fact on Bureau of Reclamation land. The cabin and the road coming around from the east appear to be on private land and should not be used if the owner wishes it. There is still a road coming in from the west that is also on Bureau of Reclamation land and therefore open. This is a tougher road than the one to the east and has one major obstacle that is not for everyone.
Someone else take a look at this and tell me if I'm wrong but I don't think so. These are the public records of ownership of the whole state. There is a mix of B of R, state trust, BLM, and private land in this area. The land ownership layer clearly shows the ownership.
I am sensitive to the private land owners plight and would like to help with cleanups and adoptions as a show of support. Clearly there is a problem.

http://www.dot.co.pima.az.us/gis/maps/mapguide/mgmap.cfm?path=/gis/maps/az/mapguide/arizona65.mwf&scriptpath=mgmapinitnullAPI.inc

expeditionswest
01-09-2007, 07:18 PM
Vern,

Thank you so much for posting that link. I will send a copy of the screen shot to the owners to help clarify the boundaries. It is the daughter of the land owner and she has been good to work with. For those of us who visited the area when the house was still occupied (that was the early 90's for me), then you know how much damage has been done to the site.

It looks like access is still ok from the NW (the more challenging shelf road).

TomHatch
01-10-2007, 10:43 AM
I don't think the map is accurate. According to Pinal County, the Coke Ovens are on private property.

fatbob309
01-10-2007, 11:19 AM
So you must have seen them a few years ago then?? :( :(

Tom

Yeah I was out there before all the glass was gone in the cabin and there was still furniture in it. The ovens still had the loft in it and it was in good shape.

k7mto
01-10-2007, 11:40 AM
It does not appear to me that the ovens are on private land, therefore they cannot be closed by private land owners. The ovens are adjacent to private land but are in fact on Bureau of Reclamation land. The cabin and the road coming around from the east appear to be on private land and should not be used if the owner wishes it. There is still a road coming in from the west that is also on Bureau of Reclamation land and therefore open. This is a tougher road than the one to the east and has one major obstacle that is not for everyone.
Someone else take a look at this and tell me if I'm wrong but I don't think so. These are the public records of ownership of the whole state. There is a mix of B of R, state trust, BLM, and private land in this area. The land ownership layer clearly shows the ownership.
I am sensitive to the private land owners plight and would like to help with cleanups and adoptions as a show of support. Clearly there is a problem.

http://www.dot.co.pima.az.us/gis/maps/mapguide/mgmap.cfm?path=/gis/maps/az/mapguide/arizona65.mwf&scriptpath=mgmapinitnullAPI.inc



According to that map, the ovens are on land designated as "Other" which is more of a "brown" and a shade darker than BLM "beige" color. Zoom out and you will see much more BLM "beige" to the north.

There are two blocks of Private Land (white) nearby. Unsure what "Other" denotes but maybe at the time the map was generated the land was in a transitory state?

In any case, we should assume this is, in fact, private land unless/until we can prove otherwise and honor the request of the folks who requested we not drive on the property.

According to the map, there is another Jeep trail which splits off to the SE towards the old town of Cochran as you come down the ridge just north of the Private Land boundary. This leads down to the river upstream from the normal crossing and might be an alternate route to cross the river while remaining off the private property.

corwyyn
01-10-2007, 12:26 PM
According to the map, there is another Jeep trail which splits off to the SE towards the old town of Cochran as you come down the ridge just north of the Private Land boundary. This leads down to the river upstream from the normal crossing and might be an alternate route to cross the river while remaining off the private property.
I think that is the crossing that John Schott posted a picture of in the fj 12/26 thread (http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/showthread.php?t=18919&page=6) Looks a bit more difficult than the one down by the railroad bridge.

oldhockeyvb
01-11-2007, 12:19 PM
The ovens are on private land. The maps I had from BLM and the state are incorrect. Here is the parcel map. The ovens are in parcel 1C.

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/672767/1

RokNRich
01-13-2007, 02:53 PM
Went through there Friday. The place was actually pretty clean, I picked up about half a big bag of trash from the hill below the ovens themselves, but the ovens themselves were clean. No signs indicating closed or anything.

The roads through there are a "right of way" I think. It will be hard to cut off access to the ovens without closing the roads.

Jdemonto
01-13-2007, 04:37 PM
I like to know where that other river crossing is????? the term up river being north or south of the current crossing. it will be near impossible to close that area unless they fence the whole area off. Its a shame that folks have to tear up such a neat area with all that history.

Jason

RufftyTuffty
01-13-2007, 07:09 PM
http://mikesjeeping.com/albums/4x4AZCokeOvens-Jan07/4x4_AZ_Coke_Ovens_Jan_07_005.sized.jpg

The cabin (Jan 07).

~Mike

Jsk8r1
01-15-2007, 12:07 AM
Coke Ovens Closed

Billy 4 hp
01-15-2007, 08:26 AM
My question is this, it has been posted that the Coke Ovens are closed due to the owners request. Yet people are still going there. It has been posted that the owners live out of state so they probably are unlikely to run down and put out no trespassing signs and gate the place up.

My questions / observations are:

1) Is the area actually closed, is there an official letter on file from the property owners? I have seen nothing official so if I was inclined to go out there I just might this instant.

2) If there is a circulating official letter or statement from the owners asking for people to stop trespassing on their property, then we should respect that and encourage others to do the same. What I see on this open forum (you don't think others are monitoring your activity through this site?) is people stating, hey the owner is closing the property. So right now even more people are going to the Coke Ovens than would normally in fear that they will never be able to do it again. Heck we're even posting the pics online proving that you can still do it.

3) If the property is indeed closed, then make is public and aware to everyone, all clubs, make it a sticky on the land use forum. Help the owner rather than hinder them. Maybe if enough people do this and police the area, help clean things up the owner might reopen it if they did indeed close it...

4) Common sense, if ultimately the property owners make it known that they have closed the property, respect that. Do you put no trespassing signs on your home? Obviously not, but it's common sense that you do not enter another person's property without consent...

My take, going to put on my 3 layer fire suit as I might get flamed...

Billy

Sandee McCullen
01-15-2007, 08:45 AM
My question is this, it has been posted that the Coke Ovens are closed due to the owners request. Yet people are still going there. It has been posted that the owners live out of state so they probably are unlikely to run down and put out no trespassing signs and gate the place up.

My questions / observations are:

1) Is the area actually closed, is there an official letter on file from the property owners? I have seen nothing official so if I was inclined to go out there I just might this instant.

2) If there is a circulating official letter or statement from the owners asking for people to stop trespassing on their property, then we should respect that and encourage others to do the same. What I see on this open forum (you don't think others are monitoring your activity through this site?) is people stating, hey the owner is closing the property. So right now even more people are going to the Coke Ovens than would normally in fear that they will never be able to do it again. Heck we're even posting the pics online proving that you can still do it.

3) If the property is indeed closed, then make is public and aware to everyone, all clubs, make it a sticky on the land use forum. Help the owner rather than hinder them. Maybe if enough people do this and police the area, help clean things up the owner might reopen it if they did indeed close it...

4) Common sense, if ultimately the property owners make it known that they have closed the property, respect that. Do you put no trespassing signs on your home? Obviously not, but it's common sense that you do not enter another person's property without consent...

My take, going to put on my 3 layer fire suit as I might get flamed...

Billy

The area is CLOSED. It doesn't matter that the owner lives out of state. A "circulating official letter or statement from the owners asking for people to stop trespassing on their property" means nothing. There were "Private Property, no Trespassing" signs up not long ago. About a year ago there were berms built across the road.

We have very little law enforcement available for issues like this but you can be assured if I hear of any trespass I will turn you in. Deliberate trespass is what makes all of the OHV sport look bad. You've been told and you now know the PRIVATE LAND is closed............. respect it.

rockwerks
01-15-2007, 09:00 AM
The area is CLOSED. It doesn't matter that the owner lives out of state. A "circulating official letter or statement from the owners asking for people to stop trespassing on their property" means nothing. There were "Private Property, no Trespassing" signs up not long ago. About a year ago there were berms built across the road.

We have very little law enforcement available for issues like this but you can be assured if I hear of any trespass I will turn you in. Deliberate trespass is what makes all of the OHV sport look bad. You've been told and you now know the PRIVATE LAND is closed............. respect it.

X20! Id be pissed if it where my land

RufftyTuffty
01-15-2007, 09:41 AM
Well maybe we should contact the owner and put up some signs for them....there's some proactive thinking!!!

Requirements....map of boundary, plastic no tresspass signs, plywood, and posts....must be less than $100.

I'll throw in a $20.

~Mike

twstdtj
01-15-2007, 10:12 AM
I got $20 also

Billy 4 hp
01-15-2007, 11:02 AM
The area is CLOSED. It doesn't matter that the owner lives out of state. A "circulating official letter or statement from the owners asking for people to stop trespassing on their property" means nothing. There were "Private Property, no Trespassing" signs up not long ago. About a year ago there were berms built across the road.

We have very little law enforcement available for issues like this but you can be assured if I hear of any trespass I will turn you in. Deliberate trespass is what makes all of the OHV sport look bad. You've been told and you now know the PRIVATE LAND is closed............. respect it.

So in my opinion for the sake of this virtual club as well as the State clubs it should be put up as a sticky on this forum or front page news on all other websites and print media if possible. "Coke Ovens closed." Period end of statement...

In this thread we have people posting pics on how they have just been there. I am an out of state property owner and I feel their pains.... If they give us permission I would be more than happy to help post their property for them...Money included...

Billy

Billy 4 hp
01-15-2007, 11:10 AM
From Sandee McCullen, probably the best voice in the state (IMO) who is fighting to perserve access to our public lands...

"The area is CLOSED. It doesn't matter that the owner lives out of state. A "circulating official letter or statement from the owners asking for people to stop trespassing on their property" means nothing. There were "Private Property, no Trespassing" signs up not long ago. About a year ago there were berms built across the road.

We have very little law enforcement available for issues like this but you can be assured if I hear of any trespass I will turn you in. Deliberate trespass is what makes all of the OHV sport look bad. You've been told and you now know the PRIVATE LAND is closed............. respect it."

Jsk8r1,

If you value your sport/recreation I would ask for your post to be removed!!!

Billy

Sandee McCullen
01-15-2007, 11:31 AM
The AZOHV Coalition have some dollars from grants. I'll check into some "Private Property, No Trespassing" signs.

As for Jsk8r1............. please do take your post down. Don't ever think the environmentalists are not tracking this site. I know persons from the Tucson BLM do........ like Francisco.

The AZVJC cannot afford to have bubbas as members or for it to even "look" like irresponsible use by it's members. AZVJC have spent hours upon hours doing recovering work, cleanups, volunteer projects and work diligently at portraying RESPONSIBLE use. This is NOT the time to lose that respect and support from the agencies.

k7mto
01-15-2007, 12:17 PM
Won't do much good for jsk8r1 to remove his/her post if all those who quoted it (including the pics) don't edit theirs too.

Can't count the number of times I've sent PM's to folks who posted Martinez run pics to webshots, etc. showing shots from inside the Mill and/or the mines. Most are quick to oblige and remove incriminating pics, explaining their ignorance and thanking me for letting them know.

Regardless of how many internet posts exist on closed areas, etc. there will always be folks who are not aware and the ONLY way to ensure folks are aware the area is private property is to post it and maintain the posts. I'm not entirely sure any judge would prosecute if there is no proof of the property being posted private/no trespassing. This, of course, would not apply to anyone who knows ahead of time the area is closed but still trespasses.

If the land owner is distant they need to retain someone local to maintain their property, including keeping it signed. We might, as a club, offer to do just that.

desertdawg
01-15-2007, 12:49 PM
Regardless of how many internet posts exist on closed areas, etc. there will always be folks who are not aware and the ONLY way to ensure folks are aware the area is private property is to post it and maintain the posts. I'm not entirely sure any judge would prosecute if there is no proof of the property being posted private/no trespassing. This, of course, would not apply to anyone who knows ahead of time the area is closed but still trespasses.

If the land owner is distant they need to retain someone local to maintain their property, including keeping it signed. We might, as a club, offer to do just that.

Your right Matt! Signs need to be posted before they will prosecute.

The culpable mental state for 3rd Degree trespass is knowingly. That means you need either one of the following elements to prosecute the individual.

If the person entering the property has been told by the owner, or by a person with legal control over the property, to leave and he doesn't.

The person returns and enters the property at a later date after being told not to enter by one the above mentioned.

If the person enters the property that is clearly marked prohibiting entry.

If you don't have either of the above, they will not prosecute.

Jsk8r1
01-15-2007, 03:21 PM
Post has been changed for everyone, sorry if it offended anyone i for one am not out tearing **** up but saw others out there while we were there and took down license plates. Just wanted to head out and see if it was open or not and when there was no signs and no gates we just kept on going along the trail. Many people were out there and unless there is gates or signs posted people are going to continue going out there. I understand the owner is out of state as some have said and i would help out as well if needed to go out and post signs or gates to block the entrance. Sorry for causing a problem if it did, not my intentions just giving some trail info that was up to date, at least from my point of view and everyone else that was out there.

RufftyTuffty
01-15-2007, 03:47 PM
Without signs the so called closure is meaningless....bikes, quads & rhino's probably make up 75% of the travel there.

Go tell them......to stop going :rolleyes:

Jsk8r1
01-15-2007, 03:53 PM
"Without signs the so called closure is meaningless...."

You are exactly right, there was a group of about 40 quads, dirtbikes, rhinos out there, with no signs or gates people will continue to go and there will be no punishment for people goign there without any signs. You can post it on as many websites as you want but the *******s that do the stupid ***** out there dont get on the computer and just go out and tear whatever they want up. It wont stop unless there is some gates or signs posted blocking entrance, and you know that.

ShottsCruisers
01-15-2007, 04:15 PM
I think that is the crossing that John Schott posted a picture of in the fj 12/26 thread (http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/showthread.php?t=18919&page=6) Looks a bit more difficult than the one down by the railroad bridge.

The other ford is on the Battleaxe Trail. When coming in toward the Coke Ovens (east entry) you make a left instead of a right at the last hilltop. After decending the hill and driving through some wooded area you'll run into the ford. It's been severely washed out since my last ford here. Entry now with our full-sized Land Cruisers would require some branch cutting. It's really tight in there now.

ShottsCruisers
01-15-2007, 04:21 PM
This will be a tough area to "Police".

Entries from:

*Price via the Gila River channel
*West ford from road to the Kelvin-Florence Highway
*East ford from road to the Kelvin-Florence Highway and/or Battleaxe/Walnut Canyon Trail
*Main road from Martinex area with east and west access roads

It'll be a shame to view the Ovens from a distance. I just hope this closure will not effect entry to the "area"....if you follow me. I hope we can "go around".

I think a major clean up effort would be the minimum we all could propose. If they insist on closure we should adopt a plan to keep vehicles off their property.

Getting the quads to stay out might be a real task.

papajeep
01-15-2007, 04:51 PM
Ok I will let you in on a little secret (Its been closed since 1979 the first time I was there) Ok flame suit is on

RufftyTuffty
01-15-2007, 06:08 PM
Ok I will let you in on a little secret (Its been closed since 1979 the first time I was there) Ok flame suit is on

:D

RokNRich
01-15-2007, 06:38 PM
Ok I will let you in on a little secret (Its been closed since 1979 the first time I was there) Ok flame suit is on

:D :D

Jsk8r1
01-15-2007, 06:39 PM
:( :( :(

WalterD
01-15-2007, 06:53 PM
Ok I will let you in on a little secret (Its been closed since 1979 the first time I was there) Ok flame suit is on
So it's been closed since '79 but you can still go there:confused:
Walter

Sandee McCullen
01-15-2007, 07:17 PM
Ok I will let you in on a little secret (Its been closed since 1979 the first time I was there) Ok flame suit is on

No it has not been closed since 1979. It's closed, re-opened, closed again, sold, re-opened and again closed in this time.

Sandee McCullen
01-15-2007, 07:20 PM
I found some signs...................... I have to get an exact count but I think there's 8-10. We can mount them on T posts (might have a few of those also). Will meet my counterpart on Wed. evening so I'll have exacts at that time. We may have to donate to the pot to purchase bolts and maybe some T posts. There is room to put AZVJC and the Coalition Stickers on them. It will reflect "Peer Support".

Re "going in because there are no signs"........... that's understandable but "going in when you KNOW it's private and closed" is wrong.

More on Thursday.

rockwerks
01-15-2007, 07:55 PM
cant come down to help put up signs this week but will be happy to donate a few bucks toward sign t posts or what ever

waywest
01-16-2007, 09:18 AM
You guys are so quick to jump. Hey you don’t even stop to find out if it is Real info from the owner. I could be someone that thinks the area should be shut down because i don't like see the damage. Then I would do go send letters to off road sites posing as the land owner. This would help my agenda. From what i see here it would work. There is nothing Wrong with Questioning things. Things in life can't always be taken at face value .I agree it would be wrong to go on private property if the land owner wishes it.But all we are going on is a email sent to expeditions west. We don't know who sent it.I could send emails saying Its not opened and your welcome to use.I know us as off roaders don't want bad press. But this seems to eager to please to me. Lets Think this out and go about this like people that can think for ourselves and find more about this. Blm has stated to me and my friends If it is not posted it is ok to pass. I'm sorry if the owner lives out of state but it is her responsibility to post and not a clubs .If she comes out to prove ownership and still would like help in closing this trail then by all means help.
Flame on .I'm not a sheep waiting to be led.

ShottsCruisers
01-16-2007, 09:24 AM
You guys are so quick to jump. Hey you don’t even stop to find out if it is Real info from the owner. I could be someone that thinks the area should be shut down because i don't like see the damage. Then I would do go send letters to off road sites posing as the land owner. This would help my agenda. From what i see here it would work. There is nothing Wrong with Questioning things. Things in life can't always be taken at face value .I agree it would be wrong to go on private property if the land owner wishes it.But all we are going on is a email sent to expeditions west. We don't know who sent it.I could send emails saying Its not opened and your welcome to use.I know us as off roaders don't want bad press. But this seems to eager to please to me. Lets Think this out and go about this like people that can think for ourselves and find more about this. Blm has stated to me and my friends If it is not posted it is ok to pass. I'm sorry if the owner lives out of state but it is her responsibility to post and not a clubs .If she comes out to prove ownership and still would like help in closing this trail then by all means help.
Flame on .I'm not a sheep waiting to be led.

I trust Scott Brady and Sandee McCullen and see them as "good sources". I personally will hold off on recommendations to my various clubs and friends until I hear from them.
I don't think the owners should be bombarded by various individuals attempting to obtain information. Scott and Sandee say "closed"....that's good for me for now. There's PLENTY of other places to four wheel to while this gets settled. :)

waywest
01-16-2007, 09:38 AM
I trust Scott Brady and Sandee McCullen and see them as "good sources". I personally will hold off on recommendations to my various clubs and friends until I hear from them.
I don't think the owners should be bombarded by various individuals attempting to obtain information. Scott and Sandee say "closed"....that's good for me for now. There's PLENTY of other places to four wheel to while this gets settled. :)

I,m sure you trust them as a source but don't expect All off roaders to go by what they say.That is not a personal attack .Yes there is plenty of time and it is not posted .Don't hate people if they don't agree and jump.This is the land of the free and we are allowed to think for ourselves.Turn people in it won't do anygood until its posted.Thats part of the problem the people are not allowed to police even with Video evidence.

06GrnRubi
01-16-2007, 10:33 AM
Sandee - PM sent.

Sandee McCullen
01-16-2007, 11:21 AM
I,m sure you trust them as a source but don't expect All off roaders to go by what they say.That is not a personal attack .Yes there is plenty of time and it is not posted .Don't hate people if they don't agree and jump.This is the land of the free and we are allowed to think for ourselves.Turn people in it won't do anygood until its posted.Thats part of the problem the people are not allowed to police even with Video evidence.

OK................
I HAVE PERSONALLY BEEN TOLD BY THE OWNER OF THE PARCEL THE COKE OVENS ARE ON THAT "HE NO LONGER OWNED THE PARCEL AND THAT IT HAD REVERTED BACK TO THE ORIGINAL OWNER AND THAT THE OWNER WAS CLOSING ACCESS." Berms were built across the access via Battle Axe Rd at that time. (About 1 = 1 1/2 years ago) How many drove over the berms as though they didn't mean anything?
BLM knew of this closure and it was announced at the BLM Resource Advisory Council meeting. I am a member of the BLM/RAC.
Specific contacts "in the know" from Florence have also told me this was happening. Additional information from this source was the owner would like to "trade" or "sell" the property. I have been working for over a year to find the dollars through grants to enable BLM to purchase the property. This would make it PUBLIC property to be managed as Historical property for the benefit of the public.

Again............ IT IS PRIVATE LAND AND IT IS CLOSED.

Constant trespass only substantiates "ABUSE of lands & resources" as well the reasons OHV'ers are protrayed as "BUBBAS". Instead of trespassing onto property because YOU don't "see a sign" how about becoming an OHV Ambassador and "Spread the word re RESPONSIBLE" ethics on public AND private lands. How about YOU joining a group at the entrance to the private lands and explain to others the story of the property and ask they not trespass. No, some will flip you off and go in anyway but many will be thankful for the information and be respectful.

I'm certain you would be the first person to stand in line screaming for YOUR RIGHTS..... and all the time fuming because irresponsible land ethics and abuse are the cause of closures. What a shame............... if you'd use some of your energy fighting for the rights of ALL instead of your own beliefs we might not be in the situation we're in. Think of what we ALL could gain together.

Put yourself in the position of being the land owner of the Coke Ovens. If you were seeing the abuse & destruction to the ovens, personal property at the cabin, the trails etc..... would you not close the property to the public?
Would YOU be angry if people like yourself continued to treaspass because the posted signs were gone?......... hmmmmmm......... ???

Don't push this crap that "ALL" OHV'ers to use as an excuse to continue what YOU want. (BTW: we are NOT 'off-roaders'........... we should not be going "off roads". The enviros love this terminology. Look at those yahoos going "OFF ROADS".) There are laws and regs or decisions made every day by people more in the know than you. This does not mean YOU do not have to abide by the rules because you weren't involved or didn't "hear it from the horses' mouth". Give a break............ unity will bring us a lot more than the on going ill will and excuses.

papajeep
01-16-2007, 11:28 AM
OK................
I HAVE BEEN PERSONALLY TOLD BY THE OWNER OF THE PARCEL THE COKE OVENS ARE ON THAT HE NO LONGER OWNED THE PARCEL AND THAT IT HAD REVERTED BACK TO THE ORIGINAL OWNER AND THAT THE OWNER WAS CLOSING ACCESS. Berms were built across the access via Battle Axe Rd at that time. (About 1 = 1 1/2 years ago)
BLM knew of this and it was announced at the BLM Resource Advisory Council meeting. I am a member of the BLM/RAC.
Specific contacts "in the know" from Florence have also told me this was happening. Additional information from this source was the owner would like to "trade" or "sell" the property. I have been working for over a year to find the dollars through grants to enable BLM to purchase the property. This would make it PUBLIC property to be managed as Historical property for the benefit of the public.

Again............ IT IS PRIVATE LAND AND IT IS CLOSED.

Constant trespass only substantiates "ABUSE of lands & resources" as well the reasons OHV'ers are protrayed as "BUBBAS". Instead of trespassing onto property because YOU don't "see a sign" how about becoming an OHV Ambassador and "Spread the word re RESPONSIBLE" ethics on public AND private lands.

I'm certain you are the first person to stand in line screaming for YOUR RIGHTS..... and all the time fuming because irresponsible land ethics and abuse are the cause of closures. What a shame............... if you'd use some of your energy fighting for the rights of ALL instead of your own beliefs we might not be in the situation we're in.

Put yourself in the position of being the land owner of the Coke Ovens. If you were seeing the abuse & destruction to the ovens, personal property of the cabin, the trails etc..... would you not close the property to the public?
Would YOU be angry if people like yourself continued to treaspass because the posted signs were gone?......... hmmmmmm......... ???

Don't push this crap that "ALL" OHV'ers (BTW: we are NOT 'off-roaders'........... we should not be going "off roads". The enviros love this terminology. Look at those yahoos going "OFF ROADS".) to use as an excuse to continue what YOU want. There are laws and regs or decisions made every day by people more in the know than you. This does not mean YOU do not have to abide by the rules because you weren't involved or didn't "hear it from the horses' mouth". Give a break............ unity will bring us a lot more than the on going ill will and excuses.

If this would have been one of the first posts all this bull **** and bickering wouldnt have gone on. Thanks Sandy for your work and info on this place.
Can we close this thread now?

Jsk8r1
01-16-2007, 12:07 PM
Seems as though if the owner is so determined to have this place closed down he would come out, spend the money on some decent locked gates and post some signs. If it was my property and i didnt want people to come in i would fly in or drive down and head out there and close it off at least the best that i could. For the most part people would abide by the signs and gates, a select few would continue in but the majority would stop at the gates and signs.

rockwerks
01-16-2007, 12:14 PM
Seems as though if the owner is so determined to have this place closed down he would come out, spend the money on some decent locked gates and post some signs. If it was my property and i didnt want people to come in i would fly in or drive down and head out there and close it off at least the best that i could. For the most part people would abide by the signs and gates, a select few would continue in but the majority would stop at the gates and signs.


The signs and berms where there and someone or people has removed and driven over the berms

So do you have no trespass signs at your house? is your lot fully fenced with gates... Whats your street address I'm thinking it might be a good place to wheel.........in your front yard:rolleyes:

ShottsCruisers
01-16-2007, 12:16 PM
The signs and berms where there and someone or people has removed and driven over the berms

So do you have no trespass signs at your house? is your lot fully fenced with gates... Whats your street address I'm thinking it might be a good place to wheel.........in your front yard:rolleyes:

Good Lord....I'm rolling on the floor! GOOD ONE! :D

Jsk8r1
01-16-2007, 12:18 PM
ahaha, if you can get on base go for it. Good point but my house is also not in the middle of nowhere. If you dont want someone accessing the site by vehicles then a Strong nicely built gate should be put up. Dirt hills are just another obstacle you know that, people see a dirt mound.... will my jeep can drive over that.

ShottsCruisers
01-16-2007, 12:20 PM
ahaha, if you can get on base go for it. Good point but my house is also not in the middle of nowhere. If you dont want someone accessing the site by vehicles then a Strong nicely built gate should be put up. Dirt hills are just another obstacle you know that, people see a dirt mound.... will my jeep can drive over that.

I wasn't picking on ya. I just thought his post was hilarious.

Your thoughts are noted.

Jsk8r1
01-16-2007, 12:22 PM
oh i dont care i thought it was funny too, but i just think a gate would be a better solution than a pile of dirt...

rockwerks
01-16-2007, 12:23 PM
ahaha, if you can get on base go for it. Good point but my house is also not in the middle of nowhere. If you dont want someone accessing the site by vehicles then a Strong nicely built gate should be put up. Dirt hills are just another obstacle you know that, people see a dirt mound.... will my jeep can drive over that.

Only ****IN morons and idiots purposely drive over obvious place berms in a roadway....and location has nothing to do with personal property rights.....90% of us would stop.........I guess you are one of the 10%ers that screw it up for the rest of us.......Im done and I hope you are smarter and more considerate than your posts imply

redwolf_747
01-16-2007, 12:26 PM
I myself went out to the Coke Ovens New Years day with a group and had it not been for seeing this post today i would never have known it was closed. There was one gate we opened and closed behind our group but that was after the river crossing on our way out. Not even one sign posted anywhere. I as well as the others with me had no idea it was closed. But i do know if it had been posted or if we had any idea that it was we would not have gone on. I do feel it is important for us as a group to get together and help keep these areas open. I will definately keep an eye on this post to see when we can help post some signs. And if i can join you i will be there.

Jsk8r1
01-16-2007, 12:30 PM
When i was out there, no dirt piles, no gates, no signs. I am not out tearing anyones property up and with signs and gates i know like you said 90% of people would stop and not trespass and im not part of the 10% that does. Just saying gates would definately be better than dirt.

rockwerks
01-16-2007, 12:39 PM
When i was out there, no dirt piles, no gates, no signs. I am not out tearing anyones property up and with signs and gates i know like you said 90% of people would stop and not trespass and im not part of the 10% that does. Just saying gates would definately be better than dirt.

:rolleyes:

UHHHUUHHH.......... This discussion was in progress, you knew that the owner had requested people to stop using the property. Yet youuu knowingly continued on to the coke ovens, and took pics there. Am I missing something here? Or did you knowingly trespass?

Jsk8r1
01-16-2007, 01:27 PM
How is it knowingly trespassing without having anything posted saying "Dont Trespass" If i told you that FJ is closed dont go out there would you stop going???

waywest
01-16-2007, 01:46 PM
OK................
I HAVE PERSONALLY BEEN TOLD BY THE OWNER OF THE PARCEL THE COKE OVENS ARE ON THAT "HE NO LONGER OWNED THE PARCEL AND THAT IT HAD REVERTED BACK TO THE ORIGINAL OWNER AND THAT THE OWNER WAS CLOSING ACCESS." Berms were built across the access via Battle Axe Rd at that time. (About 1 = 1 1/2 years ago) How many drove over the berms as though they didn't mean anything?
BLM knew of this closure and it was announced at the BLM Resource Advisory Council meeting. I am a member of the BLM/RAC.
Specific contacts "in the know" from Florence have also told me this was happening. Additional information from this source was the owner would like to "trade" or "sell" the property. I have been working for over a year to find the dollars through grants to enable BLM to purchase the property. This would make it PUBLIC property to be managed as Historical property for the benefit of the public.




Again............ IT IS PRIVATE LAND AND IT IS CLOSED.

Constant trespass only substantiates "ABUSE of lands & resources" as well the reasons OHV'ers are protrayed as "BUBBAS". Instead of trespassing onto property because YOU don't "see a sign" how about becoming an OHV Ambassador and "Spread the word re RESPONSIBLE" ethics on public AND private lands. How about YOU joining a group at the entrance to the private lands and explain to others the story of the property and ask they not trespass. No, some will flip you off and go in anyway but many will be thankful for the information and be respectful.

I'm certain you would be the first person to stand in line screaming for YOUR RIGHTS..... and all the time fuming because irresponsible land ethics and abuse are the cause of closures. What a shame............... if you'd use some of your energy fighting for the rights of ALL instead of your own beliefs we might not be in the situation we're in. Think of what we ALL could gain together.

Put yourself in the position of being the land owner of the Coke Ovens. If you were seeing the abuse & destruction to the ovens, personal property at the cabin, the trails etc..... would you not close the property to the public?
Would YOU be angry if people like yourself continued to treaspass because the posted signs were gone?......... hmmmmmm......... ???

Don't push this crap that "ALL" OHV'ers to use as an excuse to continue what YOU want. (BTW: we are NOT 'off-roaders'........... we should not be going "off roads". The enviros love this terminology. Look at those yahoos going "OFF ROADS".) There are laws and regs or decisions made every day by people more in the know than you. This does not mean YOU do not have to abide by the rules because you weren't involved or didn't "hear it from the horses' mouth". Give a break............ unity will bring us a lot more than the on going ill will and excuses.

You should have posted this info in the beganing of the post.All i see was a email info.The organial info said the owner was a Woman.We did call the BLM and they told us if it was posted then respect it if not it was up to us.So we Did try to get informed.

I think you have had a bad attitude from the beganing of this post.I hear you screaming at people with treats and cut downs .You should have leval head and be informative.Not the control freak you are coming across as.

I use the term off road because that is what it is.A road is paved or maintaned.I not using my 4x4 for that purpose. I don't go of trail.Don't confuse the two.

Don't speak like i have no interst in keep our lands open to us for useage.I'm new to this OFF ROAD thing .I have took part in all the meetings that are presented to me.


I do agree That it need to be respected if that is what the owner wants.Im sorry it ain't tresspassing if it is not posted,We didn'tt see signs or gates that look like they were used or place in a couple of decades.I do agree that some thing needs to be done about the bubbas.I'm not one.You again made a judgement without all the info.I don't think i was out of line to want more than a email soruce To base how the trail usage should be stopped.Unlike some I like to think for myself.This does not mean i disrespect laws.I,m a very law abiding person.No record And only have had two Tickets in my life.You jump to many conculsion about things.Sorry i did not bow to you your hindness .Ya i did spell it right.


Don't be so quick to jump people that don't see things your way.The ability to talk about things is the rights we have here in the land of the free.Use some of your energy to work with people instead of spewing piss and vinegar.

waywest
01-16-2007, 01:46 PM
OK................
I HAVE PERSONALLY BEEN TOLD BY THE OWNER OF THE PARCEL THE COKE OVENS ARE ON THAT "HE NO LONGER OWNED THE PARCEL AND THAT IT HAD REVERTED BACK TO THE ORIGINAL OWNER AND THAT THE OWNER WAS CLOSING ACCESS." Berms were built across the access via Battle Axe Rd at that time. (About 1 = 1 1/2 years ago) How many drove over the berms as though they didn't mean anything?
BLM knew of this closure and it was announced at the BLM Resource Advisory Council meeting. I am a member of the BLM/RAC.
Specific contacts "in the know" from Florence have also told me this was happening. Additional information from this source was the owner would like to "trade" or "sell" the property. I have been working for over a year to find the dollars through grants to enable BLM to purchase the property. This would make it PUBLIC property to be managed as Historical property for the benefit of the public.




Again............ IT IS PRIVATE LAND AND IT IS CLOSED.

Constant trespass only substantiates "ABUSE of lands & resources" as well the reasons OHV'ers are protrayed as "BUBBAS". Instead of trespassing onto property because YOU don't "see a sign" how about becoming an OHV Ambassador and "Spread the word re RESPONSIBLE" ethics on public AND private lands. How about YOU joining a group at the entrance to the private lands and explain to others the story of the property and ask they not trespass. No, some will flip you off and go in anyway but many will be thankful for the information and be respectful.

I'm certain you would be the first person to stand in line screaming for YOUR RIGHTS..... and all the time fuming because irresponsible land ethics and abuse are the cause of closures. What a shame............... if you'd use some of your energy fighting for the rights of ALL instead of your own beliefs we might not be in the situation we're in. Think of what we ALL could gain together.

Put yourself in the position of being the land owner of the Coke Ovens. If you were seeing the abuse & destruction to the ovens, personal property at the cabin, the trails etc..... would you not close the property to the public?
Would YOU be angry if people like yourself continued to treaspass because the posted signs were gone?......... hmmmmmm......... ???

Don't push this crap that "ALL" OHV'ers to use as an excuse to continue what YOU want. (BTW: we are NOT 'off-roaders'........... we should not be going "off roads". The enviros love this terminology. Look at those yahoos going "OFF ROADS".) There are laws and regs or decisions made every day by people more in the know than you. This does not mean YOU do not have to abide by the rules because you weren't involved or didn't "hear it from the horses' mouth". Give a break............ unity will bring us a lot more than the on going ill will and excuses.

You should have posted this info in the beganing of the post.All i see was a email info.The organial info said the owner was a Woman.We did call the BLM and they told us if it was posted then respect it if not it was up to us.So we Did try to get informed.

I think you have had a bad attitude from the beganing of this post.I hear you screaming at people with treats and cut downs .You should have leval head and be informative.Not the control freak you are coming across as.

I use the term off road because that is what it is.A road is paved or maintaned.I not using my 4x4 for that purpose. I don't go of trail.Don't confuse the two.

Don't speak like i have no interst in keep our lands open to us for useage.I'm new to this OFF ROAD thing .I have took part in all the meetings that are presented to me.


I do agree That it need to be respected if that is what the owner wants.Im sorry it ain't tresspassing if it is not posted,We didn'tt see signs or gates that look like they were used or place in a couple of decades.I do agree that some thing needs to be done about the bubbas.I'm not one.You again made a judgement without all the info.I don't think i was out of line to want more than a email soruce To base how the trail usage should be stopped.Unlike some I like to think for myself.This does not mean i disrespect laws.I,m a very law abiding person.No record And only have had two Tickets in my life.You jump to many conculsion about things.Sorry i did not bow to you your hindness .Ya i did spell it right.


Don't be so quick to jump people that don't see things your way.The ability to talk about things is the rights we have here in the land of the free.Use some of your energy to work with people instead of spewing piss and vinegar.

waywest
01-16-2007, 01:51 PM
:rolleyes:

UHHHUUHHH.......... This discussion was in progress, you knew that the owner had requested people to stop using the property. Yet youuu knowingly continued on to the coke ovens, and took pics there. Am I missing something here? Or did you knowingly trespass?


Get a clue its not tresspassing unless it is posted.Do cut down my friends.He has more honor and integrity than you ever know.

waywest
01-16-2007, 02:52 PM
Well Spoken.I agree.

rockwerks
01-16-2007, 04:14 PM
Get a clue its not tresspassing unless it is posted.Do cut down my friends.He has more honor and integrity than you ever know.

Trespass:



Whether in the Phoenix area, or anywhere in Arizona, per A.R.S. §13-1502, §13-1503 and §13-1504, "Trespass" occurs when a person enters or remains unlawfully on a piece of property after they have been requested to leave, or without the expressed permission of the owner, or in violation of a posted sign warning of Trespass. Per A.R.S. §13-1504,

I have prosecuted a young man who kept driving over my property for this and won. I have never had a sign posted nor do I need one

Under AZ law it does not have to be posted.

1. He knew it was private land, and was not asked.

2. because of this thread he knew prior knowledge before he went out that the owner asked for people to not trespass.

the fact is he broke the law and all those who follow suit do also

Sandee McCullen
01-16-2007, 04:34 PM
I'm a little confused by that Sandee... A good majority of us (Todd included), wheel in areas that were never roads so I'm assuming that is "Off-Road"... LW was never a road, its always been a wash... is it your position that we shouldn't be in these areas; is this what you're pushing for as part of the BLM, or what the BLM wants. Or are we trying to convince the enviro's that these are indeed "roads" by the shear fact that we can and do transverse them.

I'm really new to all this, so I'm asking this out of ignorance and trying to get an idea of where all this is heading... If we're eventually going to be foreced "on-road" I'm not sure that spending all the money on my rig that I plan to makes sense.

Do you see a future for hard core wheeling the way we know it now in these areas or are we going to be relagated to dirt roads that I can drive my S10 down.

On a different note... and this is just my two cents... I think you can fence, berm and post all you want and it will make no difference. Anyone who cares so little about something as unique and attractive as the cabins and the ovens will not care about the deterents... The idiot who spray painted the cabins will not suddenly decide that he should no longer do it because there is a fence there. I was raised on a 1000 Acre farm, spent nearly twenty years of my life there and EVERY year we had to re-fence and repost the upper end of the land, because every year hunters who didn't care would cut the fence, remove the posts and hunt our deer (or shoot our cows or horses). We never won the battle; as long as the area is out in the boonies, lightly patrolled and relatively accesible, we'll be having this conversation again and again.

It's just like going to TM, Sycamore and BJ for clean ups, our work never ends... Fences will never deter or stop those who want to poke around at the ovens. Every year a new crop of drivers discovers these areas, drivers who don't know we even exist (and don't care), and every year a certain percentage of them are going to be pre-disposed to "seeing whats in there" and some of them will take it a step futher and see what they can "do" or "F" up...

This is an area that to many of you is historical and beautiful and has great memories for you, but for others, its little more than abondoned wood, stone and dirt... Without Value or sentiment... It means nothing to them and we need to get a handle on that because that's not going to change.

Yes there is ownership and owners rights involved, but for better or worse, this is not an active owner and his abscence leaves his property at a heightened risk for attack. How many of us would leave our Jeeps in Central Phoenix unprotected, and unlocked for several weeks in an abandoned lot... It's not my "fault" if someone decides to steal it, but, I know I'm taking on risk if I leave it there. This is the same thing. There are a lot of people who don't care what the VJC thinks... and our efforts amongst ourselves doesn't impact, educate or deter them.

Thats not to say we stop the fight, but we have to be realistic in our expectations. Jawbreaker has been closed for how long now, and the BLM meeting I attended, there was much discussion about the recent tire marks found heading up that trail. This could be defiant wheelers or those who truly don't know... Either way the affect is the same.

I think its going to be a long time before these areas see real relief from abuse... because the ones that don't care, don't care what we do and until its actively policed there is little real detterent.

My gut tells me, they can close all the trails they want and there will still be people hitting those trails; no doubt, even some who are reading this right now, because the risk of being caught is worth the reward of hitting hard core trails that become even more attractive by the fact that someone has said "No, you can't go there"... Most American's have a hard time being told no; we are generations thick with entitlement, freedom and an explorative nature. This will only compound as more trails are closed and more areas are lost... The more that is taken away, the more we rebel and the less we care to compromise. We are less likely to try to meet in the middle if what we see as radical fails to work with us, regardless of how radical we ourselves may be... which is also part of the problem. Much of what we're fighting for is not what the mass majority of jeep owners are interested in running... which means we may be as radical as Francisco is in his passion for nature. I dount these extremes will ever come together; this might just as well be the Gaza Strip.

I think there is something we also need to take into consideration here. The group that opposes us takes this seriously... The lady who watched over my shoulder at LW, litteraly cried when I was transplanting cactus... begging me not to kill them. Have you ever heard of eviro's taking extreme action to prevent destruction of lands they want protected from lumbering or development; I have... let's not fool ourselves, we could literaly be wheeling at higher levels of risk in these areas if one of these turds falls off the deep end and decides that "by any means necesary" is justifiable to protect their "precious" land.

Within every group there are those willing to push the enevelope; we are not alone in our passions to protect what we believe in. I understand that is a little far fetched right now, but I know there are those of us (I may or may not be in this group) who will wheel regardless of the sign, what is closed or opened etc, because wheeling is what we do... There are those on the other side of the fence who will be willing to match our daring if they can find us; err I mean you.

The word "off-road" to the enviros means "across virgin lands, destroying resources".

This is the reason OHV came about. OFF HIGHWAY VEHICLES ......... this allows for trails, roads or routes. The new Copper Sticker bill or laws reference ALL ROUTES OFF HIGHWAY or not intended for 2 wheel drive passenger vehicles.

Sorry, don't have any more in me to go in to another flame war........ Just trying to inform you all what the higher ups are asking or supporting.

Jsk8r1
01-16-2007, 04:44 PM
I dont have a problem with anyone on here and there is no use in argueing, all im saying is people will continue to go out there without anything stopping them from going. Nobody will ever be able to stop EVERYONE from accessing this place. If they want to get to it bad enough they will. I wont take my vehicle past a sign that says no trespassing but there will always be those that will. Not everyone thats in AZ gets on the AZVJC or any of the other sites with this posted so dont get upset when other people are still going out there. Facts are i had heard rumor that the coke ovens might be closed, we called BLM asked if this was true they said go for it and if signs were posted then respect them, and if not then where you go is up to you.

k7mto
01-16-2007, 04:51 PM
Trespass:

Whether in the Phoenix area, or anywhere in Arizona, per A.R.S. §13-1502, §13-1503 and §13-1504, "Trespass" occurs when a person enters or remains unlawfully on a piece of property after they have been requested to leave, or without the expressed permission of the owner, or in violation of a posted sign warning of Trespass. Per A.R.S. §13-1504,

I have prosecuted a young man who kept driving over my property for this and won. I have never had a sign posted nor do I need one

Under AZ law it does not have to be posted.

1. He knew it was private land, and was not asked.

2. because of this thread he knew prior knowledge before he went out that the owner asked for people to not trespass.

the fact is he broke the law and all those who follow suit do also



As our resident LEO, and someone I regard very highly, stated earlier in this thread....



The culpable mental state for 3rd Degree trespass is knowingly. That means you need either one of the following elements to prosecute the individual.

If the person entering the property has been told by the owner, or by a person with legal control over the property, to leave and he doesn't.

The person returns and enters the property at a later date after being told not to enter by one the above mentioned.

If the person enters the property that is clearly marked prohibiting entry.


Meaning the owner or a person with legal control must inform you directly, not via word of mouth or internet forums.

Still, anyone who "knows" it's private property, whether told by the owner or via this or other forums, yet still enters the property, while maybe not in direct violation of the law, is still taking an unnecessary risk and potentially causing more problems for the rest of us.

rockwerks
01-16-2007, 04:55 PM
As our resident LEO, and someone I regard very highly, stated earlier in this thread....



Meaning the owner or a person with legal control must inform you directly, not via word of mouth or internet forums.

Still, anyone who "knows" it's private property, whether told by the owner or via this or other forums, yet still enters the property, while maybe not in direct violation of the law, is still taking an unnecessary risk and potentially causing more problems for the rest of us.

that is for third degree, the definition of each degree is different.

k7mto
01-16-2007, 04:56 PM
that is for third degree, the definition of each degree is different.

Thanks for clarifying. Mike didn't differentiate :)

rockwerks
01-16-2007, 05:03 PM
Thanks for clarifying. Mike didn't quantify :)

Like I said I have already prosecuted a young man for trespass. I never talked to him until the second time. he crossed our property. He was not warned but He Knew it was private property.

I gave the licence plate to an officer and he found the young man and gave him a citation for trespass.

The Judge said "because he knew it was private property and decided to cross it a second time, he was guilt of criminal trespass"

Jsk8r1
01-16-2007, 05:09 PM
Then the owner should head out there for a day on any given weekend, and start taking down license plate numbers of everyone going through. Otherwise there is hundreds of people out there that have no idea that this is supposively closed and private property

rockwerks
01-16-2007, 05:13 PM
Then the owner should head out there for a day on any given weekend, and start taking down license plate numbers of everyone going through. Otherwise there is hundreds of people out there that have no idea that this is supposively closed and private property

that is why many of us have volunteered to set signs and post to keep vehicles out.....

DesertRat
01-16-2007, 05:56 PM
Perhaps we should remove the Coke ovens trail information:
http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/showthread.php?t=16960

Maybe create a a new section:
Closed trails, with just the pictures (For good memory's) :(

waywest
01-16-2007, 06:09 PM
The word "off-road" to the enviros means "across virgin lands, destroying resources".

This is the reason OHV came about. OFF HIGHWAY VEHICLES ......... this allows for trails, roads or routes. The new Copper Sticker bill or laws reference ALL ROUTES OFF HIGHWAY or not intended for 2 wheel drive passenger vehicles.

Sorry, don't have any more in me to go in to another flame war........ Just trying to inform you all what the higher ups are asking or supporting.

Sorry that the enviros are wrong about the term off roader.But it is getting silly to have to be change terms because they are misinformed

rockwerks
01-16-2007, 06:14 PM
Sorry that the enviros are wrong about the term off roader.But it is getting silly to have to be change terms because they are misinformed

But that mis information is spread far and wide. if you ask the average Joe Blow he will agree with the terminology of the enviro.......So what do ya do?

We need to be flexible to survive

papajeep
01-16-2007, 06:31 PM
Perhaps we should remove the Coke ovens trail information:
http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/showthread.php?t=16960

Maybe create a a new section:
Closed trails, with just the pictures (For good memory's) :(

Great idea. and then close this dumb ***** thread. arizona virtual Payton place

Sandee McCullen
01-16-2007, 06:47 PM
Sorry that the enviros are wrong about the term off roader.But it is getting silly to have to be change terms because they are misinformed

Their "misinformation" is USED AGAINST US!!!!

Even the BLM CFR's now reflect OHV in lieu of ORV.... maybe others believe there is a reason to support motorized recreationists in a good light. You certainly have the right to call motorized recreation whatever you'd like. I was simply explaining the fact that the use of ORV or "off-road" HURTS ALL OF US AND OUR SPORT.

desertdawg
01-16-2007, 06:59 PM
that is for third degree, the definition of each degree is different.

I didn't diferentiate between the three degrees because were talking about Real property here, which is 3rd degree.

2nd degree applies to non residential structure or commercial yard (entering the coke oven structures themselves would fall under this).

1st degree is residential ( At least in Maricopa County, the charging standards for this one requires the residential structure to be occupied before they will charge it as a felony).

I have personally filed many trespassing cases and have worked with both the county and city attorneys on these cases and like I said before, you need to have the element of "knowingly." That means the person needs to be told he's trespassing or he obviously disregards a clearly posted sign stating "No Trespassing."

In Mesa we have trespass logs that are used to keep track of who has been told not to enter a particular property or establishment. If that person refuses to leave, or enters again after being told not to, or he's on the trespass log then we can charge him with trespassing.

If there's nobody at the coke ovens to officially tell people they are trespassing, then a sign needs to be posted, "No Trespassing" which is considered "Reasonable notice prohibiting entry."

You can take all the license plate numbers down you want but your wasting your time unless the owner, a person with lawful control, a LEO, or a sign is posted at the coke ovens telling them they are trespassing.

I hope this clarifies the issues of trespassing and what you need to do to successfully prosecute an individual for it.

desertdawg
01-16-2007, 07:07 PM
As our resident LEO, and someone I regard very highly

Gosh Matt I'm flattered. Now I'll have to act like a decent person when I'm wheeling with you and not rag on you about your Oregon plate.:D

michaelp
01-17-2007, 01:21 AM
"Enviros", "Natives", "Bubbas" etc.
Its funny that most of the people on this board are like lemmings falling in line to whatever belief or opinion is bandied about by the most "respected" or whatever. Its truly amazing that a group of people with supposedly the same interests would be so divided in thought and action.
UNLESS.....they arent really interested in the activity as so much as belonging to a community and fitting in. I have never seen any group of people bicker incessantly about such trivial subjects as I have on here and in the "OHV":rolleyes: community. Jesus people, wake up and understand that you are living in the waning years of human development and through overpopulation most if not all of the trails you cherish will eventually be lost. Will it be tomorrow, or will it be 20 years from now, you decide. Its not going to be the coke oven trespass or some guy in a toyota parking alongside a trail taking photos, or even some guy destroying some "sacred" rockpile with a winch, it will be public opinion and the only way to sway public opinion is to, well, um, not run over the beautiful and coveted rockpiles and sand in your gas guzzling "SUV's". Guess what, your hobby is destructive and scars the landscape and serves no peticular purpose except as a genital measuring contest between alpha males in the eyes of 95% of the people out there not involved with OHV.
The only real way to win this losing battle is to educate non-4x4 type people and to stop bickering amongst yourselves.

bdozeraz
01-17-2007, 08:42 AM
"Enviros", "Natives", "Bubbas" etc.
Its funny that most of the people on this board are like lemmings falling in line to whatever belief or opinion is bandied about by the most "respected" or whatever. Its truly amazing that a group of people with supposedly the same interests would be so divided in thought and action.
UNLESS.....they arent really interested in the activity as so much as belonging to a community and fitting in. I have never seen any group of people bicker incessantly about such trivial subjects as I have on here and in the "OHV":rolleyes: community. Jesus people, wake up and understand that you are living in the waning years of human development and through overpopulation most if not all of the trails you cherish will eventually be lost. Will it be tomorrow, or will it be 20 years from now, you decide. Its not going to be the coke oven trespass or some guy in a toyota parking alongside a trail taking photos, or even some guy destroying some "sacred" rockpile with a winch, it will be public opinion and the only way to sway public opinion is to, well, um, not run over the beautiful and coveted rockpiles and sand in your gas guzzling "SUV's". Guess what, your hobby is destructive and scars the landscape and serves no peticular purpose except as a genital measuring contest between alpha males in the eyes of 95% of the people out there not involved with OHV.
The only real way to win this losing battle is to educate non-4x4 type people and to stop bickering amongst yourselves.

Well said. If you can't stop pissing and moaning and being derogatory towards the people that are trying to make a difference then shut the f*** up and give up. Go crawl in a hole somewhere. I have been reading these threads trying to get usefull information to help protect the past time I love and I am just getting sick and pissed off at all the bickering and negativity. My biggest fear right now is that people are going to badger Sandy and a few others on hear that are really trying to make a differenc until they say F*** you all and give up. Then we will really be lost.

Brent

rockwerks
01-17-2007, 08:46 AM
"Enviros", "Natives", "Bubbas" etc.
Its funny that most of the people on this board are like lemmings falling in line to whatever belief or opinion is bandied about by the most "respected" or whatever. Its truly amazing that a group of people with supposedly the same interests would be so divided in thought and action.
UNLESS.....they arent really interested in the activity as so much as belonging to a community and fitting in. I have never seen any group of people bicker incessantly about such trivial subjects as I have on here and in the "OHV":rolleyes: community. Jesus people, wake up and understand that you are living in the waning years of human development and through overpopulation most if not all of the trails you cherish will eventually be lost. Will it be tomorrow, or will it be 20 years from now, you decide. Its not going to be the coke oven trespass or some guy in a toyota parking alongside a trail taking photos, or even some guy destroying some "sacred" rockpile with a winch, it will be public opinion and the only way to sway public opinion is to, well, um, not run over the beautiful and coveted rockpiles and sand in your gas guzzling "SUV's". Guess what, your hobby is destructive and scars the landscape and serves no peticular purpose except as a genital measuring contest between alpha males in the eyes of 95% of the people out there not involved with OHV.
The only real way to win this losing battle is to educate non-4x4 type people and to stop bickering amongst yourselves.

Well said!

Kevin Sherwood
01-18-2007, 09:29 AM
Sorry that the enviros are wrong about the term off roader.But it is getting silly to have to be change terms because they are misinformed

From the Arizona State Land Department website (accessed via the State Land Permit thread stickied in this forum).

RECREATIONAL ACTIVITIES ALLOWED ON STATE LANDS WITH A PERMIT INCLUDE:

• Off highway vehicle use (restricted to existing roads and trails)

I don't remember the exact words, but the signs posted at the entrances to State Land say that off road travel is prohibited.

rockwerks
01-18-2007, 10:31 AM
From the Arizona State Land Department website (accessed via the State Land Permit thread stickied in this forum).

RECREATIONAL ACTIVITIES ALLOWED ON STATE LANDS WITH A PERMIT INCLUDE:

• Off highway vehicle use (restricted to existing roads and trails)

I don't remember the exact words, but the signs posted at the entrances to State Land say that off road travel is prohibited.

100% correct, they are using the correct term OHV, we do no travel off road or trail..........

waywest
01-18-2007, 12:34 PM
From the Arizona State Land Department website (accessed via the State Land Permit thread stickied in this forum).

RECREATIONAL ACTIVITIES ALLOWED ON STATE LANDS WITH A PERMIT INCLUDE:

• Off highway vehicle use (restricted to existing roads and trails)

I don't remember the exact words, but the signs posted at the entrances to State Land say that off road travel is prohibited.

Hey some trails are washes and never a road.So i guess i'll never see you on those kind of trails.Lighten up man.

The correct term should be No off trail usage.Don't knock me because the term off road has been twisted.

Kevin Sherwood
01-18-2007, 02:10 PM
Hey some trails are washes and never a road.So i guess i'll never see you on those kind of trails.Lighten up man.

The correct term should be No off trail usage.Don't knock me because the term off road has been twisted.

Did you purchase a permit to recreate on State Trust Land?

waywest
01-18-2007, 02:23 PM
To you that think I'm a bubba for not knowing what the meaning of "OFF ROAD "means.Here you go.


YOU can't argue with a ENCYCLOPEDIA

Off-roading
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Off-road)
Jump to: navigation, search

Off Roading is a recreational pursuit popular among a small sub-section of the owners of four wheel drive or all-terrain vehicles. The term "Off-Road" refers to a driving surface which is not conventionally paved such as sand, gravel, riverbeds, mud, snow, rocks and other natural terrain. These terrains can sometimes only be traveled by vehicles designed for off-road driving (such as heavy-duty trucks and equipment, SUVs, ATVs, snowmobiles, motorcycles, mountain bicycles) or vehicles that have extra ground clearance, sturdy tires, and in some cases, front and rear locking differential. Notable examples of vehicle manufacturers that produce a type of off-road vehicle (ORV) include AM General, Land Rover, Ford, General Motors, Jeep, Toyota, and Volkswagen



This also states what a off road vehicle is.

Off-road vehicle
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An off-road vehicle is considered to be any type of vehicle which is capable of driving off paved or gravel surface. It is generally characterized by having caterpillar tracks or large tires with deep, open treads and a flexible suspension. Other vehicles that do not travel streets or highways are generally termed off-highway vehicles, which would include things like tractors, forklifts, cranes, backhoes, bulldozers and Golf carts.

Off-road vehicles have an enthusiastic following because of their many uses and versatility. Several types of motorsports involve racing off-road vehicles. The three largest "4 wheel vehicle" off-road types of competitions are Rally, Desert Racing, and Rockcrawling. The three largest types of All Terrain Vehicle (ATV) / Motorcycle competitions are Motocross, Enduro, and Desert Racing. These sports are often celebrated in competition events due to public interest. The most common use of these vehicles is for sight seeing in areas distant from pavement. The use of higher clearance and higher traction vehicles enables access on trails and forest roads that have rough and low traction surfaces.
.

This is why i don't use the term OHV."Other vehicles that do not travel streets or highways are generally termed off-highway vehicles, which would include things like tractors, forklifts, cranes, backhoes, bulldozers and Golf carts" I don't drive the trails with on of these.


mMcomputer gives me the def too.Microsoft

off-road

adj
for use away from public roads: designed, manufactured, or used for travel off public roads, especially over rough terrain

Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.


or
vehicle used away from public roads: a motorized vehicle designed or used for travel away from public roads or on rough terrain
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.


See this is way i won't change my usage of these words .I'm not wrong.Instead of Trying to educate me work on the ones looking for fault anywhere they can find it with with off roading crowd.You think changing the terms we use is going to get them to agree with the use of OFF road Vehicles on lands is ok.We need to stand up to them and not worrie if they aprove of every little thing we do.If.They don't understand and never will.So why kiss their butts.

waywest
01-18-2007, 02:35 PM
Did you purchase a permit to recreate on State Trust Land?


YES.I do stay informed Just because i don't agree with you don't mean I'm not.I too have people with contacts and knowledge I can refer to.I aways learn all i can of a trail before I go run it.I don't wheel with bubbas.

My1stJeep
01-18-2007, 02:40 PM
I'm not wrong.

You may be correct with the dictionary and every other place, however in the real world the word has been twisted. The enviros have used it to mislead the general public and even the land management orgs. The label us off roaders and at the same time call our vehicle of road vehicles and then when they acuse OHV users of going of trail, they instead use the term going off road. By doing this every time they use the term off road it sends a negative message of OHV users going off the trails/roads and destroying the lands.

So while those places you looked it up have a definition that may back up your use, keep in mind that in the real world it has been altered and continued use will only continue to mislead people including the general public who vote on land use issues and closures.

Dish - plate or other device to eat off of. Yet it also used to be used in the real world during a prior generation to refer to a good looking girl. We can go on and on about words that have a definition in the dictionary, encyclopedia, internet etc... all day long, but it won't get us anywhere.

No one can make you change how you use words, but I would ask you consider the information I have given you about the enviros missuse and how it is viewed by the general public and land management and maybe consider using OHV user instead. Again no one can force you too, however due to the negative view point that it presents to all of us I would appreciate it if you would think about and consider the change of terminology.

In any case, it has been posted and we need to spread the word and help keep fellow OHV users off the private property. Regardless of having a STL permit or any other land management permit none of those cover PRIVATE PROPERTY. Posted or not, get a ticket or not does not matter. What will matter is when the property owner reaches out to the public via the news or any other form and Joe Public and the surrounding land management organizations hear about the trespassing and continue to purpetuate a negative attitude toward our sport and OHV users.

Kevin Sherwood
01-18-2007, 03:06 PM
YES.I do stay informed Just because i don't agree with you don't mean I'm not.I too have people with contacts and knowledge I can refer to.I aways learn all i can of a trail before I go run it.I don't wheel with bubbas.

Then read the permit (and the ASLD website) and pay attention to the terminology used by the agency controlling the land.

waywest
01-18-2007, 03:19 PM
You may be correct with the dictionary and every other place, however in the real world the word has been twisted. The enviros have used it to mislead the general public and even the land management orgs. The label us off roaders and at the same time call our vehicle of road vehicles and then when they acuse OHV users of going of trail, they instead use the term going off road. By doing this every time they use the term off road it sends a negative message of OHV users going off the trails/roads and destroying the lands.

So while those places you looked it up have a definition that may back up your use, keep in mind that in the real world it has been altered and continued use will only continue to mislead people including the general public who vote on land use issues and closures.

Dish - plate or other device to eat off of. Yet it also used to be used in the real world during a prior generation to refer to a good looking girl. We can go on and on about words that have a definition in the dictionary, encyclopedia, internet etc... all day long, but it won't get us anywhere.

No one can make you change how you use words, but I would ask you consider the information I have given you about the enviros missuse and how it is viewed by the general public and land management and maybe consider using OHV user instead. Again no one can force you too, however due to the negative view point that it presents to all of us I would appreciate it if you would think about and consider the change of terminology.

In any case, it has been posted and we need to spread the word and help keep fellow OHV users off the private property. Regardless of having a STL permit or any other land management permit none of those cover PRIVATE PROPERTY. Posted or not, get a ticket or not does not matter. What will matter is when the property owner reaches out to the public via the news or any other form and Joe Public and the surrounding land management organizations hear about the trespassing and continue to purpetuate a negative attitude toward our sport and OHV users.


Ohver can be twisted too.just give it time.The point is you have to make a stand on things .Those that hate you will aways use terms to confuse .

Just because joe blow tells me info don't mean they are always right.Yes they can be.When your told by people that are the goverment that you can go if it is not posted i tend to side with them.The owner needed to inform them not a site.Thats how some verify facts.

waywest
01-18-2007, 03:23 PM
Then read the permit (and the ASLD website) and pay attention to the terminology used by the agency controlling the land.

By that terminolgy i can't use the parking lots near by.They are not a road or a trail.See how silly it is to dwell on terms.

rockwerks
01-18-2007, 05:43 PM
By that terminolgy i can't use the parking lots near by.They are not a road or a trail.See how silly it is to dwell on terms.

You are a bonefied DIP................LOL :rolleyes: all parking areas are considered by the nature to be driven on and too. A parking lot is part of a road system. Explanation is not needed.

The term off roader had become negative. and did so about 5 to 6 years ago.

terminology changes all the time. I just dont understand your beef about the use ofa word or 2, smart people move on and adapt with change.......

waywest
01-18-2007, 09:59 PM
You are a bonefied DIP................LOL :rolleyes: all parking areas are considered by the nature to be driven on and too. A parking lot is part of a road system. Explanation is not needed.

The term off roader had become negative. and did so about 5 to 6 years ago.

terminology changes all the time. I just dont understand your beef about the use ofa word or 2, smart people move on and adapt with change.......


what i have seen of you reminds me of a little dog Around someones feet barking.I also take you as a treat about the same.People i talk to think your a dip **** for yours and the other follower ways.My beef ******* is being told i don't now **** for using a common term still used by others not over thinking every single non issue.Trust me your silly.look around the term is used everywhere.But on the bright side i gave you a perpose in your life.Hunt down the horriable off roaders.That is after you pull your head out of The
Nature Nazis butts.

06GrnRubi
01-18-2007, 10:02 PM
You are a bonefied DIP................LOL :rolleyes: all parking areas are considered by the nature to be driven on and too. A parking lot is part of a road system. Explanation is not needed.

If parking lots are part of the ROAD SYSTEM, then ho come I can get a ticket for going through a parking lot in order to avoid an intersection?

rockwerks
01-19-2007, 07:54 AM
what i have seen of you reminds me of a little dog Around someones feet barking.I also take you as a treat about the same.People i talk to think your a dip **** for yours and the other follower ways.My beef ******* is being told i don't now **** for using a common term still used by others not over thinking every single non issue.Trust me your silly.look around the term is used everywhere.But on the bright side i gave you a perpose in your life.Hunt down the horriable off roaders.That is after you pull your head out of The
Nature Nazis butts.

You crack me up.:D

rockwerks
01-19-2007, 07:57 AM
If parking lots are part of the ROAD SYSTEM, then ho come I can get a ticket for going through a parking lot in order to avoid an intersection?

The distinction is between parking lots in town and trail head parking lots. And even still you do drive on those parking lots dont you? LOL. You also cant turn left from a right hand lane.

waywest
01-19-2007, 08:42 AM
You crack me up.:D


Thanks. You too

rockwerks
01-19-2007, 09:13 AM
Thanks. You too

Its all good........My off roader buddy!;)

My1stJeep
01-19-2007, 09:21 AM
Ohver can be twisted too.just give it time.The point is you have to make a stand on things .Those that hate you will aways use terms to confuse .

Just because joe blow tells me info don't mean they are always right.Yes they can be.When your told by people that are the goverment that you can go if it is not posted i tend to side with them.The owner needed to inform them not a site.Thats how some verify facts.

You are correct over time anything can be twisted. This is one you can make a stand on if you want, but from being at the meetings, talking with the land management and those that are anti-OHV it is too late for this term.

As for just because Joe blow tells you info does not mean they are always right, you are correct, no one is always right, but that means too that you are not always right.

My1stJeep
01-19-2007, 09:25 AM
By that terminolgy i can't use the parking lots near by.They are not a road or a trail.See how silly it is to dwell on terms.

Yet you dwell on terms (See Off Roader)...hmmm now that is just plain funny...

waywest
01-19-2007, 12:41 PM
Yet you dwell on terms (See Off Roader)...hmmm now that is just plain funny...


A other clueless person:rolleyes: I wasn't the one out for heads of people using the term.Freedom of Speech you commie .I think the whole thing is silly.Thats my point. Istated why I don't think it was just to flame on a word..But every time I post the reasons I tought that way and many do.I got the green party *** kissers coming back to defend there veiw.so i'm not the only one DWELLING here.Sorry i don't see it being life or death which term me and others use.Let go do some OHV ing and knock this chit off.

waywest
01-19-2007, 12:46 PM
You are correct over time anything can be twisted. This is one you can make a stand on if you want, but from being at the meetings, talking with the land management and those that are anti-OHV it is too late for this term.

As for just because Joe blow tells you info does not mean they are always right, you are correct, no one is always right, but that means too that you are not always right.


Yes being right goes both ways .For you too.Sorry me and my club went to those in power instead of the hear say off this site.You guys say people should stay informed but you guys want to be the only source for that info.What we heard was considered thats why we did our own calling.Tucson blm office.