Rock stacking BS

[xFallen]

In case the perpetrators are reading this here (I know that is a leap that they can actually read), here's a song for the rock stacking morons of the big fall on Collateral Damage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikrYzz1pxwU


Barry

[FlexyXJ]

Barry, I too witnessed some of this yesterday and was quite pissed off also. bad thing was, it was 2 VERY well known people of AZVJC, along with a well known competitor in the rock crawling comp's. We watched them attempt an obsticle with well built bugies, only to keep being knocked off line by a rock ledge hiting the right front tire. Soulution?? Make an attempt to pull down that ledge and throw many rocks down to pretty much make a road to get up it. Well after watching it for about 10 min from a distance, we walked up there to "watch". They must have known what they were doing was BS, because they stopped. Yes, I did say something to them (Sarcasticly) about making it up in a buggy after building a road but did not get a respose. The people know who they are and I m SURE they wont be here to say anything. I am also sure that they didnt clean up ANY of the oil mess either:rolleyes:


Joe

[SHNIPE]

I <3 Carlos Mencia! Stacking sucks! And people wonder why most of the trail locations arent discussed! Stacking is one thing if youre stuck and need a bit more traction but put all the damn rocks back where you got em! I do :D

[joedokes28]

That's sad.

[xFallen]

Barry, I too witnessed some of this yesterday and was quite pissed off also. bad thing was, it was 2 VERY well known people of AZVJC, along with a well known competitor in the rock crawling comp's. We watched them attempt an obsticle with well built bugies, only to keep being knocked off line by a rock ledge hiting the right front tire. Soulution?? Make an attempt to pull down that ledge and throw many rocks down to pretty much make a road to get up it. Well after watching it for about 10 min from a distance, we walked up there to "watch". They must have known what they were doing was BS, because they stopped. Yes, I did say something to them (Sarcasticly) about making it up in a buggy after building a road but did not get a respose. The people know who they are and I m SURE they wont be here to say anything. I am also sure that they didnt clean up ANY of the oil mess either:rolleyes:


Joe

I am certain I know exactly who you are talking about and exactly which obstacle. People who climb that obstacle are going to be totally pissed off about what was done to it.

The hydraulic fluid is still there although I did pick up one of the beer cans they left behind. I had pig pads and peat sorb for my own spills should I make them, but nowhere near enough to even make a dent in what was there since two vehicles were leaking badly. A few drops here and there are one thing. What was left is entirely another story.

I am no saint, and I doubt you believe you are either, nor are most of us (well, one person THINKS he is but we'll leave that alone), but this is pretty sad.


Barry

[xFallen]

I <3 Carlos Mencia! Stacking sucks! And people wonder why most of the trail locations arent discussed! Stacking is one thing if youre stuck and need a bit more traction but put all the damn rocks back where you got em! I do :D

Exactly. Just de-rock when you are done.

And you are right. The good trails will remain secret and the clueless and under-prepared can whine and cry all they like. If anyone thinks that is eliteist, because I just know that remark is coming, you are totally missing the point and you are quite likely part of the problem.


Barry

[Allen]

That is real sad! I keep building my rig so It'll do tougher trails, and some guys are breaking up the trails making it easyer :mad:

And to leave an oil slick behind!!

BAD BAD BAD

[SHNIPE]

I dont know where a majority of the good trails are and i know cause im not ready :D Id much rather listen to people whine about no one giving directions to a particular trail then have it ruined for good or end up spending hours unstacking just to make the rough stuff fun. In do time everyone will progress to a level where they will get to run the good stuff... guess we all dont have as much common sense and patience as we should.

Ive found a really tough trail taht i know a majority of people arent ready for but you havent heard me tellign the world about it cause i know itll just get ruined. Only some people that i know will manage the trail in a mature way and not stack and not ruin it have been told. Its just how it has to be to keep things right.

[xFallen]

I dont know where a majority of the good trails are and i know cause im not ready :D Id much rather listen to people whine about no one giving directions to a particular trail then have it ruined for good or end up spending hours unstacking just to make the rough stuff fun. In do time everyone will progress to a level where they will get to run the good stuff... guess we all dont have as much common sense and patience as we should.

This sounds really weird even to me, but I gues (here it comes) not everyone is as sensible as you Dennis! Did anyone hear a cracking sound? Did hell just freeze over?


Barry

[GLEN REAMS]

barry yeah its getting really cold right now i think hell just might have froze over!

[SHNIPE]

Barry i might be single... but quit hitting on me :D

I just dont get how some grown men can act like babies when they cant be part of every goings on that comes up. I guess its just me not being experienced in the world yet but it just comes as a surprise to me. Oh well.

hey barry i got a secret trail for ya :D lets go stack it so we can make it :D

[Antman]

It's really sad to hear this kinda stuff. I have known, second hand, of people throwing cigarettes out their window on Payette Draw, take shortcuts when they were told not to just because they were mad and wanted to leave, or get back to camp for lunch.

Everyone seems to think the rules apply to everyone except them!:mad:

I am not an angel, but come on people.:o

[SHNIPE]

Make an attempt to pull down that ledge and throw many rocks down to pretty much make a road to get up it.

WAIT SERIOUS??? Like actually physically trying to pull down the rocks in the middle of the fall to make it easier to get up? Not like moving rocks from the side to fill the bottom? but ACTUALLY PERMANANTLY DESTROYING part of the fall??

[desertfabmotors]

Exactly. Just de-rock when you are done.

And you are right. The good trails will remain secret and the clueless and under-prepared can whine and cry all they like. If anyone thinks that is eliteist, because I just know that remark is coming, you are totally missing the point and you are quite likely part of the problem.


Barry

Amen,

We also need to unstack areas when we see that it is stacked. It seems we get people complain about obsticles being stacked and they will not take time to unstack while they are out there.
Last Sun. when we ran AA we had to unstack the big fall about 2 feet. This only took about 10 min. of our time.
If we do this maybe we can stay ahead of the stackers.

[SHNIPE]

Amen,

We also need to unstack areas when we see that it is stacked. It seems we get people complain about obsticles being stacked and they will not take time to unstack while they are out there.
Last Sun. when we ran AA we had to unstack the big fall about 2 feet. This only took about 10 min. of our time.
If we do this maybe we can stay ahead of the stackers.

Good point. Kinda common sense but could easily not be thought of. I remember a post a while back about stacking and the idea of unstacking when people notice areas being stacked. I think part of the problem could be when peopel are running a trail for the first time and its stacked, they might not realize it and dont unstack. Rule of thumb: if there are rocks at the bottom... move em? I guess theres really not challenge regardless of the trail to have rocks in em. If you cant make it as is, you cant make it.

[xFallen]

Amen,

We also need to unstack areas when we see that it is stacked. It seems we get people complain about obsticles being stacked and they will not take time to unstack while they are out there.
Last Sun. when we ran AA we had to unstack the big fall about 2 feet. This only took about 10 min. of our time.
If we do this maybe we can stay ahead of the stackers.

We de-rock when we are able as much as we are able for conditions at hand and I know lots that do as do you. But yes, there's more stacking than there is de-rocking, no question.


Barry

[yldkat]

Hmm.:mad:

If you guys are done dancing around who was responsible, I'll say that one of my club members witnessed the event, tried to warn them verbally against their actions, and I'd be MORE than happy to spill who the culprits were...

Personally, I don't like the guy anyway...

[SHNIPE]

I would like to know who it was. Especially if its someone holds quite as much clout as it would seem. Everyones accountable for their own actions and if we are to be a collective and responsible group we should do our part to hold those responsible for their actions then I think they should be called out. Enough beating around the bush and playing games like we're a freakin Tip Toe Club. If I did it, I would expect you guys to do the same. All this petty talk about who does what and yet still no accountability. Whats the point of it if there is no reprecussions from OUR OHV community?? Why even bother to post about it? Why bother to complain?

[Hackle]

As was also in that location I will not dance around this. Does the phrase TXT mean anything to you as Troy was the main one kicking down the rocks and there was also talk about using the winch to pull down another rock before we walked up. The conversation we could hear from where we had been sitting. It was not Troy's rig on the obsticle that they stacked rocks for nor his rig that spilled all the fuild. I know these others by sight and rig but am not sure enough of names to post those. It was a group led by Troy.
Hackle

[yldkat]

Get A Rope!! :D

[SHNIPE]

Somehow that stuck out in my mind as a clear possibility. I dunno but that just leaves a very bad taste in my mouth about a local vendor acting in such a foolish manner. I understand that many times peopel make bad decisions on the trail and that there are always two sides to the story but this one should have been clearly defined as soemthing you just dont do regardless of who you are, what you do or what club you belong to.

Your original statment didnt state clearly that it wasnt Troy DOING the destruction but being a part of it still sucks bigtime. Leading at trip should mean controlling things if they get out of hand or if participants are doing something they shouldnt.

[Hackle]

As I stated it was not for Troy's rig that he was pushing rocks down for. Also he was not driving the buggy it was his TJ?
Jim F.

[xFallen]

Hmm.:mad:

If you guys are done dancing around who was responsible, I'll say that one of my club members witnessed the event, tried to warn them verbally against their actions, and I'd be MORE than happy to spill who the culprits were...

Personally, I don't like the guy anyway...

I am missing the point of that comment apparently. It sounds like you're inferring others are skirting the issue and not naming the people, yet you do the same thing. Bill, lay off the liquor.

Not that I have to explain my actions to you or anyone else, I am going to anyway.

Whether I like the people or not is immaterial. The issue for me is not about who did stuff, but what stuff was done. I won't discuss the specifics of this particular issue beyond those details I have already mentioned except person to person. That's just me.

I did not say who it was because I am not interested in hanging out individuals. My motivator is an interest in people not pulling these types of stunts because it ruins the trails for everyone else and makes us as a group look bad. The time for me to say something was to the individuals involved yesterday but the damage had already been done. I wasn't in a position to make it much better by helping other than the limited way I did at the time.

As for the fluids lost, maybe they weren't prepared to clean it up either. I do not know what they had in their minds. How many people here carry enough cleanup materials to rid the trail of two vehicles hyrdraulic fluids let alone their own? I know of only a few that would even come close. That one is hard to judge.

I am, however, unable find any rational excuse for modifying the obstacle or for the amount of stacking on CD. If you cannot negotiate an obstacle, find another way around, winch, or build your rig so you can deal with it the way you want. If you have to stack, de-rock when you are done. Simple.


Barry

[yldkat]

Barry,
I am inferring that others were skirting around the issue and not naming names.
I was fully prepared to disclose who it was if there was an interest in this club knowing. However, before much interest was generated, the person responsible was revealed by a first hand witness.
BTW, it extends FURTHER than the trail you mentioned, because the trail I heard about was Annihilator.

In closing to you, my comments weren't directed at you, but if the shoe fits...

Now for my explanation.

If someone is f'ing up a trail and you witness it and don't have the nads to say who it was when you know who it was, then you are giving leverage to those people who seek to destroy what we all work hard for preventing. Sometimes the ONLY leverage you have as a group is PUBLIC HUMILITY for their actions. Not being willing to step up and CONFRONT publicly is weaksauce.

[FlexyXJ]

YES. I guess it was because they "thought" they had the "perfect" line, EXCEPT that "one rock on the right keeps knocking you off line" As of when I left, the ledge was still there, but for almost 5 minuites they (3 of them) tried to knock it down. Nice huh???

Joe


WAIT SERIOUS??? Like actually physically trying to pull down the rocks in the middle of the fall to make it easier to get up? Not like moving rocks from the side to fill the bottom? but ACTUALLY PERMANANTLY DESTROYING part of the fall??

[FlexyXJ]

Bill, I was standing right next to the club member you are talking about. You and I both know that the people who were involved wont fess up, and the people who support those people will defend them even though they were not there for it. Lets wait for a while (day or so) and see what comes out of this.


Joe


Hmm.:mad:

If you guys are done dancing around who was responsible, I'll say that one of my club members witnessed the event, tried to warn them verbally against their actions, and I'd be MORE than happy to spill who the culprits were...

Personally, I don't like the guy anyway...

[Hackle]

The trail I was watching was Annihilator. Not Colateral Damage just to clarify.
Jim F.

[Craig]

From the looks of things, Troy's jeep may have been stuck in the chute and they needed to get someone up and over to lend assistance. After a number of attemps at the wall without success, Troy who was standing at the top of the wall, started moving rocks, lots of them. More attempts and more rocks. When Troy tried to move the big rock, we had to go say something. When we got there, after hearing talk of using the winch, I said, that "I had seen that buggy climb the right side line without all the rocks" and they were "ruining the line". The reply was that "the line had changed". Like that somehow makes it OK? :confused:

Everyone knows how tough that right side line is, but to even consider pulling down the big rock below the tree is outrageous! It is that rock that makes the line so difficult. You have to go left, underneath it, while climbing to make it up. There are very few obstacles of this caliber that will consistantly challenge even the hardestcore buggies. If you can't get up it, pull cable. But please leave it unchanged for the next guy.

[xFallen]

Barry,
I am inferring that others were skirting around the issue and not naming names.
I was fully prepared to disclose who it was if there was an interest in this club knowing. However, before much interest was generated, the person responsible was revealed by a first hand witness.
BTW, it extends FURTHER than the trail you mentioned, because the trail I heard about was Annihilator.

In closing to you, my comments weren't directed at you, but if the shoe fits...

Now for my explanation.

If someone is f'ing up a trail and you witness it and don't have the nads to say who it was when you know who it was, then you are giving leverage to those people who seek to destroy what we all work hard for preventing. Sometimes the ONLY leverage you have as a group is PUBLIC HUMILITY for their actions. Not being willing to step up and CONFRONT publicly is weaksauce.

The stacking was on CD. I do not know who did that.

The BS I and others witnessed was Annihilator.

I don't care if anyone else names names, but I wasn't interested in doing that and won't be chided or cajoled into doing things I don't feel I need to do. You can call me names or whatever other BS you want to pull, I make my own decisions.

After all is said and done, you are STILL doing exactly what you are claiming other people are doing -- dancing around.

You also don't have all your facts straight, as you will eventually find out. Some of us were actually present.


Barry

[yldkat]

The stacking was on CD. I do not know who did that.

The BS I and others witnessed was Annihilator.

I don't care if anyone else names names, but I wasn't interested in doing that and won't be chided or cajoled into doing things I don't feel I need to do. You can call me names or whatever other BS you want to pull, I make my own decisions.

After all is said and done, you are STILL doing exactly what you are claiming other people are doing -- dancing around.

You also don't have all your facts straight, as you will eventually find out. Some of us were actually present.


Barry


I'm sorry, what was this thread about again? :rolleyes:

[FlexyXJ]

Hey guys, lets not turn this into a pissing match between VJC members. Thats not what its about. Bottom line is we have a SERIOUS PROBLEM here. Names are out, actions are out, and acountability needs to be assed. Bottom line. I didnt post any names for the OBVIOUS reasons. Hackle and Craig were also there to witness it. Now, WHAT SHOULD WE DO ABOUT THE PROBLEM?


Joe

[jbjarko]

In all honesty, why don't we just hit the trails that have been stacked, and do our best to de-rock them and bring back the original line(s). Kind of like a clean up, but more or less a de-rocking event. I can understand moving a rock or two to aid in traction, or what have you, but atleast move it back when finished. Changing the characteristic of an obstacle is an entirely different thing and reflects badly IMO.

[OlneyJeeps]

I think :eek: it is a shame that 90%+ of this threas is concerned with stacking (and therefore ruining the challange), and the need to correct such changes and very very little is devoted to the ecological (god forbid the greenies get ahold of this info like they did the Mookie rescue) ramifications of the oil spill:mad:

Sorry if this is "polically incorrect" for this forum, but if you use those trails (and would like to keep them open), SCREW the finger pointing and holier than thou calls for unstacking and organize a group with the capibility and supplies to get to and CLEAN UP THE MESS.

I feel better now (gonna put my flame suit on)

[xFallen]

Hey guys, lets not turn this into a pissing match between VJC members. Thats not what its about. Bottom line is we have a SERIOUS PROBLEM here. Names are out, actions are out, and acountability needs to be assed. Bottom line. I didnt post any names for the OBVIOUS reasons. Hackle and Craig were also there to witness it. Now, WHAT SHOULD WE DO ABOUT THE PROBLEM?


Joe

It burns weaksauce when I pee, apparently, so I am not doing that. I think that means I am well hydrated though.

I don't know how it can be stopped. The people involved in the Annihilator incident clearly knew better. The damage was done, comments were made, but would not have fixed any thing on the spot. None of us are in a position to physically stop anyone form doing anything.

Personally I try to leave the places we wheel better than found. That means picking up grabage when possible, and de-rocking as time and circumstances permit.

We can try to educate. I am not convinced public humiliation is always the right way. It can be effective. It can also backlash.

You can vote with your wallets by not purchasing from the vendor involved, I suppose, but that doesn't really even address the real issue.


Barry

[jbjarko]

None of us are in a position to physically stop anyone form doing anything.


I think this is the kicker right here. We all have to take it upon ourselves to do what is right and can't affect anyone elses actions. I wish there was more we could do to be honest and I am not NEARLY educated enough on trail etiquette, however, I would like to be more so. I know this may be repetitive but maybe we should organize a refresher course for etiquette?

[Craig]

You can vote with your wallets by not purchasing from the vendor involved, I suppose, but that doesn't really even address the real issue.

True Barry, But the offender may think twice about it next time. Its not a solution, but it is a start.

[xFallen]

I think :eek: it is a shame that 90%+ of this threas is concerned with stacking (and therefore ruining the challange), and the need to correct such changes and very very little is devoted to the ecological (god forbid the greenies get ahold of this info like they did the Mookie rescue) ramifications of the oil spill:mad:

Sorry if this is "polically incorrect" for this forum, but if you use those trails (and would like to keep them open), SCREW the finger pointing and holier than thou calls for unstacking and organize a group with the capibility and supplies to get to and CLEAN UP THE MESS.

I feel better now (gonna put my flame suit on)

What I read in Joe's comments was more about the ongoing issue of how to keep the problem from recurring, not one specific incident.

Cleanup efforts are great. We have done it in the past and should continue to do that. Some of those efforts are made public and others are not. Sometimes they happen and they are not made real public because they are ad hoc sort of things. The few get POed because they feel like they are the only ones not causing the trouble and are the only ones who do clean up.

I am not sure where the "holier than though" comments originate. Maybe it is an innocent figure of speach. You must understand and accept that many people run these trails and do not leave stacked obstacles to do it. Understand that use of such terms has the effect minimalizing the problem and even the people who raise the concern. Is that the intent? If so there is a double standard at play.


Barry

[Jeeppeepin]

I feel that having this tread out in the open is a decent start.
When I rode with some good people out at Asylum yesterday, the trail leader had a driver's meeting before we hit the trail. Maybe if every trip leader decided to mention about de-rocking if stacking is needed at a "driver's Meeting", perhaps more people will think twice. And a mention of cleaning up spills would be great too. Perhaps someone should be appointed to bring peat sorb or pig pads during out sign up process here on the BBS. I hardly bring spare parts, but I sure as heck bring a handy spill kit with me.

BTW, we found that lot's of stacking had been left at Asylum too. Very dissappointing.

[SHNIPE]

I think :eek: it is a shame that 90%+ of this threas is concerned with stacking (and therefore ruining the challange), and the need to correct such changes and very very little is devoted to the ecological (god forbid the greenies get ahold of this info like they did the Mookie rescue) ramifications of the oil spill:mad:

Sorry if this is "polically incorrect" for this forum, but if you use those trails (and would like to keep them open), SCREW the finger pointing and holier than thou calls for unstacking and organize a group with the capibility and supplies to get to and CLEAN UP THE MESS.

I feel better now (gonna put my flame suit on)

I was viewing this more of a we should know better and work harder to prevent it from happening the future. i doubt anyone failed to understand the gravity of the fluid spill. I think the concern was geared, at the moment, specifically at the permanent destruction of the trail. We understand that the fluids need to be cleaned in the immediate. But long term just gotta stop it from happening again. Im sure the de-rocking that is being discussed would include efforts to undo the damage from the fluids as well.

As was said... what to do about it now to further prevent it? how can it be attacked when its our own thats doing the damage?

[Renob]

The rock stacking we witnessed on Collateral Damage yesterday was the typical relocation of small, loose rocks from one area to another. This is generally accepted with the understanding that they will be returned to their former vicinity. They were not and so the obstacles had been changed but could easily be unstacked and returned to their former condition.

This is not the case with what we saw on Annihilator. The right side wall has been forever modified by ripping a large rock from its embedded location at the top of the obstacle. This rock now rests, vertically on the face of the wall as do a number of smaller rocks that had moved with it.

And as you all have already learned, this was done by guys with built rigs. The ones that the new guys look to for trail etiquette.

[DsrtJeeper]

Once again; I am not a bit surprised. I ask that all involved be named so I don't make the mistake of wheeling with them. Self policeing can be accomplished in many different ways. Public redicule and abandonment of the guilty should be a start. Could someone please PM me the names for my personal record? Thanks!

P.S. I'm also wondering why it was easy to mention TXT and not the others? Have I missed something?

[Wildcat455]

My guess is because he was leading the trip, and on top of the fall doing all the damage.

[DsrtJeeper]

My guess is because he was leading the trip, and on top of the fall doing all the damage.

Gotcha. So he dumped all the oil also?

The others are guilty by association if they didn't clean up and destack in my book.

[FlexyXJ]

Bill, we actually have 2 different things that happened here. 1) Known leaking of fluid with no recourse to remove/clean it up. 2) WILLFULLY AND PURPOSELY DESTROYING A TRAIL. I guess that being able to say you drove up it is better than saying you couldn't, even with a built buggy. I think that there are 2 options here: 1) Get a group of people together (5-6 should do it) purchase the peat-sorb and bill the offending people for clean up (15 dollars per hour, per person + supplies) But we all know this wont work or be reasonable
2) Maybe these people will go back out there and clean it up themselves.
3)maybe the ARC and the RockRats can get together and do it.
4) Maybe the VJC could get together (Steve Olney included, since he feels so strongly about it) and get out there and clean it up, all the while remembering who did it.

What does everyone think????


Joe


My guess is because he was leading the trip, and on top of the fall doing all the damage.

[desertfabmotors]

I think :eek: it is a shame that 90%+ of this threas is concerned with stacking (and therefore ruining the challange), and the need to correct such changes and very very little is devoted to the ecological (god forbid the greenies get ahold of this info like they did the Mookie rescue) ramifications of the oil spill:mad:

Sorry if this is "polically incorrect" for this forum, but if you use those trails (and would like to keep them open), SCREW the finger pointing and holier than thou calls for unstacking and organize a group with the capibility and supplies to get to and CLEAN UP THE MESS.

I feel better now (gonna put my flame suit on)

LOL!!!


Bottom line is if you need to build roads to get through a trail than you do not belong there.!! Why should I have to always clean up after the wanna be's.
If you can not make, use a friggin winch!!! or strap.

[Wildcat455]

The BTG and the ARC cleaned up Annihilator, H2H, and Anaconda a couple years ago, returning them to their former glory. You wouldn't know it to look at them today. It's allot of backbreaking work, that will most assuredly be undermined by a few assshats.

I still have a bunch of supplies that were left over from donations on the Pirate board. Mostly Simple Green, trashbags etc. There may be some Peatsorb in there somewhere, I'll have to look. This stuff was donated to the cause by BTG, ARC, Mountain States Contracting, and a few others that were concerned about the trails. If you guys are serious about cleaning it up, set something up and I'll see who I can get to help.

[DsrtJeeper]

Flexy says I'll never change and that I'm just looking for drama so I'm deleting my post to please him. Maybe we can just sweep this one under the carpet also? Why bring the whole thing up if you aren't willing to go straight to the problem? Who are we protecting here?

[jeeper05]

I dont think my jeep is capable of getting in there but if someone has a open jumpseat Ill help cleanup and derock.I really dont think waiting for the people that caused the mess to clean it up will work as far as the fluid goes the longer it sits the worse the contamination will be.

[Jeeppeepin]

I dont think my jeep is capable of getting in there but if someone has a open jumpseat Ill help cleanup and derock.I really dont think waiting for the people that caused the mess to clean it up will work as far as the fluid goes the longer it sits the worse the contamination will be.

You can get to the beginning of Annihilator via dirt road. It begins where Predator ends. But you're right, I really don't think the guilty parties will be out there cleaning their mess any time soon. :mad: They have probably already rationalized their actions somehow to themselves and will never admit fault. That's just one group I will never wheel with. Ever.
It just angers me that the obstacle will never be the same. I'm so dissappointed. I haven't built my jeep yet to even try it yet, and now it's tainted. :( What a bunch of knobs.

[FlexyXJ]

.

[jbjarko]

I'd for sure be down. time and a date and i'll do anything to help out.

[OlneyJeeps]

LOL!!!

Bottom line is if you need to build roads to get through a trail than you do not belong there.!! Why should I have to always clean up after the wanna be's.
If you can not make, use a friggin winch!!! or strap.


I think this may answer Barry's question
I am rather sick of this chest beating "...you don't belong there" crap

from what I have read, those who were there were well equipped but chose to change trail so they could complete it on their terms

on far too many occasions I have been with well "equipped" vehicles who have torn up the trail / adjoining areas (clearly off trail) and stacked rocks (which they did not unstack) because they were showing off/being STUPID. Several occasions were while I was with / met up with on trails some of the groups mentioned (most recently Saguaro Lake run I watched in near disbelief as another club cut 10-15 yards OFF THE TRAIL (yes there was plenty of room to pass and stay on trail) so they could have a "group meeting"). I have watched (30years or so now) the Saguaro Lake area and several areas get cut to crap including new extreme trails cut by these vehicles (and yes ripped up further by those equiped/unequiped trying to duplicate).

Another shruged off the oil spill because the thread was concentrating on "perminant trail damage"..... HELLO!!!! while pulling down a large ledge is reprhensible (and permanant), oil does not just wash away. If you remember the press we got from the Mookie rescue, the pictures posted on the greenie site were not of stacked rocks, they were of OIL SPILL and that (along with cutting off and making new trails) is what will get trails closed

I'm just sick of this "if your vehicle is not built good enough (by us), stay off the trail" CRAP

IT'S NOT THE VEHICLE... IT'S THE A**HOLE BEHIND THE WHEEL!!!
From what I have read, these were well equipped vehicles with drivers capable of completing trail... THEY chose to act irresponsibly.

As for the respondant who volunteered that I should be part of the cleanup, I have never done either trail, I don't know if I / my Jeep could complete trail. Because (from what I have seen of trail) the destination does not interest me enough to subject my vehicle to damage/breakage I have not ventured as far as even checking out the trail (as opposed to Sandy Beach, which I have scouted from ground as far a I could safely take Jeep with supplies/backup I had at time, then by air twice, then by foot, and will eventually attempt fully prepared and equipped. ). Eventhough the trail being repaired is not one which I use or is of the type which I forseeably would use ( for the purpose I have my Jeep: primarily sceenery / hunting... to me the challenge is an added benifit ), I would be more than happy to join someone else in their Jeep to this area for a cleenup.

gonna stop now
AAAAAARGH!

[xFallen]

I think this may answer Barry's question
I am rather sick of this chest beating "...you don't belong there" crap

from what I have read, those who were there were well equipped but chose to change trail so they could complete it on their terms

on far too many occasions I have been with well "equipped" vehicles who have torn up the trail / adjoining areas (clearly off trail) and stacked rocks (which they did not unstack) because they were showing off/being STUPID. Several occasions were while I was with / met up with on trails some of the groups mentioned (most recently Saguaro Lake run I watched in near disbelief as another club cut 10-15 yards OFF THE TRAIL (yes there was plenty of room to pass and stay on trail) so they could have a "group meeting"). I have watched (30years or so now) the Saguaro Lake area and several areas get cut to crap including new extreme trails cut by these vehicles (and yes ripped up further by those equiped/unequiped trying to duplicate).

Another shruged off the oil spill because the thread was concentrating on "perminant trail damage"..... HELLO!!!! while pulling down a large ledge is reprhensible (and permanant), oil does not just wash away. If you remember the press we got from the Mookie rescue, the pictures posted on the greenie site were not of stacked rocks, they were of OIL SPILL and that (along with cutting off and making new trails) is what will get trails closed

I'm just sick of this "if your vehicle is not built good enough (by us), stay off the trail" CRAP

IT'S NOT THE VEHICLE... IT'S THE A**HOLE BEHIND THE WHEEL!!!
From what I have read, these were well equipped vehicles with drivers capable of completing trail... THEY chose to act irresponsibly.

As for the respondant who volunteered that I should be part of the cleanup, I have never done either trail, I don't know if I / my Jeep could complete trail. Because (from what I have seen of trail) the destination does not interest me enough to subject my vehicle to damage/breakage I have not ventured as far as even checking out the trail (as opposed to Sandy Beach, which I have scouted from ground as far a I could safely take Jeep with supplies/backup I had at time, then by air twice, then by foot, and will eventually attempt fully prepared and equipped. ). Eventhough the trail being repaired is not one which I use or is of the type which I forseeably would use ( for the purpose I have my Jeep: primarily sceenery / hunting... to me the challenge is an added benifit ), I would be more than happy to join someone else in their Jeep to this area for a cleenup.

gonna stop now
AAAAAARGH!

I do not think anyone will disagree with you in that it is presumed that the vehicles in question are driven by people who drive their rigs into areas where they cannot seem to drive them without damaging the trail. If we are to maintain our trails as open access to all, then it stands to reason that those people should not be threre. If we do not care about having trails open, then sure, let it be a free for all. Do you disagree with that statement? If not, then there really should not be an issue because that's all anyone else is or ever has been saying.

Personally, when someone who knows me and how my rig performs advises me against going on a certain run, I tend to listen up. I am not sure why would anyone get offended at that. Seems very ood to me.

I don't understand why bringing this up is "crap", why it is "chest pounding" or why it is "holier than thou" to bring it out into the open and condemn it as unacceptable behavior when that behavior needs to change. You seem to agree rock stacking, tearing up the desert and leaving spills is unacceptable behavior. So does pretty much everyone else. What's the disconnect? I guess I am missing something, but that's okay. No need for an explanation if it's going to get anyone (or anyone's Jeep maybe?) upset, I just find it somewhat odd, is all.


Barry

[desertfabmotors]

I think this may answer Barry's question
I am rather sick of this chest beating "...you don't belong there" crap

from what I have read, those who were there were well equipped but chose to change trail so they could complete it on their terms

on far too many occasions I have been with well "equipped" vehicles who have torn up the trail / adjoining areas (clearly off trail) and stacked rocks (which they did not unstack) because they were showing off/being STUPID. Several occasions were while I was with / met up with on trails some of the groups mentioned (most recently Saguaro Lake run I watched in near disbelief as another club cut 10-15 yards OFF THE TRAIL (yes there was plenty of room to pass and stay on trail) so they could have a "group meeting"). I have watched (30years or so now) the Saguaro Lake area and several areas get cut to crap including new extreme trails cut by these vehicles (and yes ripped up further by those equiped/unequiped trying to duplicate).

Another shruged off the oil spill because the thread was concentrating on "perminant trail damage"..... HELLO!!!! while pulling down a large ledge is reprhensible (and permanant), oil does not just wash away. If you remember the press we got from the Mookie rescue, the pictures posted on the greenie site were not of stacked rocks, they were of OIL SPILL and that (along with cutting off and making new trails) is what will get trails closed

I'm just sick of this "if your vehicle is not built good enough (by us), stay off the trail" CRAP

IT'S NOT THE VEHICLE... IT'S THE A**HOLE BEHIND THE WHEEL!!!
From what I have read, these were well equipped vehicles with drivers capable of completing trail... THEY chose to act irresponsibly.

As for the respondant who volunteered that I should be part of the cleanup, I have never done either trail, I don't know if I / my Jeep could complete trail. Because (from what I have seen of trail) the destination does not interest me enough to subject my vehicle to damage/breakage I have not ventured as far as even checking out the trail (as opposed to Sandy Beach, which I have scouted from ground as far a I could safely take Jeep with supplies/backup I had at time, then by air twice, then by foot, and will eventually attempt fully prepared and equipped. ). Eventhough the trail being repaired is not one which I use or is of the type which I forseeably would use ( for the purpose I have my Jeep: primarily sceenery / hunting... to me the challenge is an added benifit ), I would be more than happy to join someone else in their Jeep to this area for a cleenup.

gonna stop now
AAAAAARGH!


You do not get it!!!!!!!!

I do not care what you drive. IF YOU HAVE TO BUILD ROADS TO GET THROUGH A TRAIL YOU DO NOT BELONG ON THE TRAIL.!!!!!

If you need to use a winch through the entire trail, great but do not ruin the trail by stacking.

It has nothing to do with chest pounding as you put it, it is called COMMON SENSE!!

[Heinz57]

Perhaps Craig Zeller, Brad K, Chad and Troy should own up and clean the mess. I haven't heard both sides of the story yet, but their were enough credible witnesses to catch my interest. How's that for tip toeing around? :rolleyes:

Yep, no dancing there.:D I am very shocked by this and extremely dissapointed. I plan on talking to Criag and Troy today. I spoke with Craig M. who also witnessed the Annihilator thing so I can not imagine any excuse will be accepted. If Troy was stuck, and they could not manage the optional difficult line then they should have used their winches. I fully expect that Craig and Troy along with Brad and Chad will gladly help in un-stacking and clean up. Now, on to Collateral, holy cow, did not know there were that many rocks around that water fall. We spent a deal of time on Sunday de-stacking the hole but did not get it all out. Also, I mentioned stacking on Asylum, man what are you doing on that trail if you need to stack?:mad:
It is real simple, it is much easier to strap up or winch than to stack rocks and get Annihilated by bad PR. I have been wheeling alot lately with some hard core wheelers and rule is no stacking period. You make it or you don't, there is way more rock stacking in comps than what they do. Have I stacked yes, have I unstacked yes!

[DsrtJeeper]

Yep, no dancing there.:D I am very shocked by this and extremely dissapointed. I plan on talking to Criag and Troy today. I spoke with Craig M. who also witnessed the Annihilator thing so I can not imagine any excuse will be accepted. If Troy was stuck, and they could not manage the optional difficult line then they should have used their winches. I fully expect that Craig and Troy along with Brad and Chad will gladly help in un-stacking and clean up. Now, on to Collateral, holy cow, did not know there were that many rocks around that water fall. We spent a deal of time on Sunday de-stacking the hole but did not get it all out. Also, I mentioned stacking on Asylum, man what are you doing on that trail if you need to stack?:mad:
It is real simple, it is much easier to strap up or winch than to stack rocks and get Annihilated by bad PR. I have been wheeling alot lately with some hard core wheelers and rule is no stacking period. You make it or you don't, there is way more rock stacking in comps than what they do. Have I stacked yes, have I unstacked yes!

Barry;
Thanks for taking the first step. I believe personal accountability is the right way to proceed. You're well respected in the wheeling community and I believe your words will have meaning to the ears of the guilty. Why anyone would chastize me for bringing forth names is beyond me. This needs to be adressed people. If I made a mistake on any of the names; I truley apologize and will correct the issue immediately.

[Antman]

I think this may answer Barry's question
I am rather sick of this chest beating "...you don't belong there" crap

from what I have read, those who were there were well equipped but chose to change trail so they could complete it on their terms

on far too many occasions I have been with well "equipped" vehicles who have torn up the trail / adjoining areas (clearly off trail) and stacked rocks (which they did not unstack) because they were showing off/being STUPID. Several occasions were while I was with / met up with on trails some of the groups mentioned (most recently Saguaro Lake run I watched in near disbelief as another club cut 10-15 yards OFF THE TRAIL (yes there was plenty of room to pass and stay on trail) so they could have a "group meeting"). I have watched (30years or so now) the Saguaro Lake area and several areas get cut to crap including new extreme trails cut by these vehicles (and yes ripped up further by those equiped/unequiped trying to duplicate).

Another shruged off the oil spill because the thread was concentrating on "perminant trail damage"..... HELLO!!!! while pulling down a large ledge is reprhensible (and permanant), oil does not just wash away. If you remember the press we got from the Mookie rescue, the pictures posted on the greenie site were not of stacked rocks, they were of OIL SPILL and that (along with cutting off and making new trails) is what will get trails closed

I'm just sick of this "if your vehicle is not built good enough (by us), stay off the trail" CRAP

IT'S NOT THE VEHICLE... IT'S THE A**HOLE BEHIND THE WHEEL!!!
From what I have read, these were well equipped vehicles with drivers capable of completing trail... THEY chose to act irresponsibly.

As for the respondant who volunteered that I should be part of the cleanup, I have never done either trail, I don't know if I / my Jeep could complete trail. Because (from what I have seen of trail) the destination does not interest me enough to subject my vehicle to damage/breakage I have not ventured as far as even checking out the trail (as opposed to Sandy Beach, which I have scouted from ground as far a I could safely take Jeep with supplies/backup I had at time, then by air twice, then by foot, and will eventually attempt fully prepared and equipped. ). Eventhough the trail being repaired is not one which I use or is of the type which I forseeably would use ( for the purpose I have my Jeep: primarily sceenery / hunting... to me the challenge is an added benifit ), I would be more than happy to join someone else in their Jeep to this area for a cleenup.

gonna stop now
AAAAAARGH!

I Am sorry to see these "agendas" come into this discussion. I agree with Barry or should say both Barrys. Find out what happened from someone who was actually there, confront the perpetrators, and with or without their help, get it cleaned up and de-rocked! If they are not remiss, let all know about it.
If the time is right, I'll come down for the cleanup.

[mingoglia]

I've been watching the back and forth and really don't want to mix it up... others have already voiced their concerns and I fully agree with them.

I have a weekend next month that I have to meet a client and I'm not exactly sure yet so I can't plan anything right now...but I'll find out within the next day or so. What I propose is that we decide let's say 6 or 8 trails that need destacking the most (I know just about all trails probably need it, but we might be able to prioritize this). Once we come up with this group of trails (and maybe a better number is 3 or 4 trails) we should break up into teams and plan on spending that day on the trail. I would keep the teams to probably 3 or 4 rigs. A signup sheet like this:

Trail 1
Me
Jane Doe
Joe bob

Trail 2
Jane smith
curly
bob smith

...and so on.


...you get the idea.

These 3 or 4 folks on this signup list will destack each trail on day X in January. Afterwards we'll try to make a point to be back to the airdown spot at a certain time... all head to Denny's on Deer Valley (assuming these trails that are done are in Table Mesa) and debrief.

I don't know about you, but I have just as much fun being on the trail regardless of what I'm doing. I sure as heck know the friendships that are created while doing this type of work will definitely help with the pissing contests that seem to be happening here on a daily basis. Oh yeah, also while on the trail pick up garbage.

BTW, on JD and Predator yesterday I was happy that I didn't find a single beer can for the first time ever. I did manage to haul out with me someone's fender flare, a broken u-joint, and a couple other pieces of carnage. Now the air down spot that's another story...and another thread that we need to discuss.

Mike

[T.C.'S TOY]

Amen,

We also need to unstack areas when we see that it is stacked. It seems we get people complain about obsticles being stacked and they will not take time to unstack while they are out there.
Last Sun. when we ran AA we had to unstack the big fall about 2 feet. This only took about 10 min. of our time.
If we do this maybe we can stay ahead of the stackers.

Todd! I was on Upper Crusher the other day and there were even stacked rocks on that Donna and i did our best to unstack everything we could,for the most part this run is still a pretty secret place hope to hell it stays that way......Thom (T.C.'S TOY):( :( :(

[Tom Jacobson]

"Also, I mentioned stacking on Asylum, man what are you doing on that trail if you need to stack?"

But Barry...in the thread about the Asylum run, someone said it would probably rate a 4.0-4.5. I've run Upper Woodpecker, and it's also a 4.0. Think I'll give Asylum a try next weekend.

OK...yeah, I'm being REALLY sarcastic here. I've wheeled with Barry and some of the other guys who ran Asylum. He might even tell me I'd be all right, or that he'd take care of me and make sure we made it...but still. I can clearly see from the pics that this trail is on the very upper end of any rating scale, and certainly a long ways from other "easier" trails that might also fit into the same category.

EVERYONE needs to apply a bit of common sense to this whole sport/activity/whatchamacallit we call wheeling. Listen to what's being said by people who've done the trails before you. Why should you feel offended if someone that knows you and your rig tells you to stay off a given trail??? Do you not think they're trying to help? There's no power trip involved, or "chest beating". Show some respect...for the people and the land.

[Heinz57]

Tom, you would do fine on Asylum!:D

[desertfabmotors]

"Also, I mentioned stacking on Asylum, man what are you doing on that trail if you need to stack?"

But Barry...in the thread about the Asylum run, someone said it would probably rate a 4.0-4.5. I've run Upper Woodpecker, and it's also a 4.0. Think I'll give Asylum a try next weekend.

OK...yeah, I'm being REALLY sarcastic here. I've wheeled with Barry and some of the other guys who ran Asylum. He might even tell me I'd be all right, or that he'd take care of me and make sure we made it...but still. I can clearly see from the pics that this trail is on the very upper end of any rating scale, and certainly a long ways from other "easier" trails that might also fit into the same category.

EVERYONE needs to apply a bit of common sense to this whole sport/activity/whatchamacallit we call wheeling. Listen to what's being said by people who've done the trails before you. Why should you feel offended if someone that knows you and your rig tells you to stay off a given trail??? Do you not think they're trying to help? There's no power trip involved, or "chest beating". Show some respect...for the people and the land.


On a scale of 1 - 5

Woodpecker is a 2

Asylum is a 4.5 - 5

But you know everyone has thier own rating.:D

[Jeeppeepin]

If there is to be a sign up sheet for De-Rocking/clean up, be sure that I will volunteer. I have seen so much trash and stacking on most trails, and try to pick up some as I go along. But there is still a lot out there.

Lets start a list of trails that need work:

Annihilator
Collateral Damage
Upper and lower terminator
Asylum (WT)

What else?

[xFallen]

If there is to be a sign up sheet for De-Rocking/clean up, be sure that I will volunteer. I have seen so much trash and stacking on most trails, and try to pick up some as I go along. But there is still a lot out there.

Lets start a list of trails that need work:

Annihilator
Collateral Damage
Upper and lower terminator
Asylum (WT)

What else?

That list would be a great start. For a change H2H is not so badly stacked. The notch is in great rig eating shape or was the last 3-4 times we ran it these past several weeks. But, it could use some scrubbing due to spills left somewhat recently. One of the falls could probably use some cleanup as it fell in due to natural wear and tear. Even the crack in UW was good as was the Firehole. I/we de-rocked the bypass to H2H last time out ("Hello, I'd like to buy a clue please") but I bet it needs it again.


Barry

[RufftyTuffty]

:( :( :(

IMO there's no real need for a list...just remember the following :

* When you see some stacking...STOP, GET OUT and throw it OFF the trail.

* NEVER STACK...all this BS about it's ok to stack as long as you unstack is simply BS...it doesn't happen 90% of the time.

* Educate the people (stackers) who don't understand the damage they are causing.

Also there is 'natural' trail errosion...i guess trails need to be maintained.

A bit little the HAMMERS...the local club 'maintains' the trails to a set difficulty.

My 0.02c

~Mike

[Jeeppeepin]

:( :( :(

IMO there's no real need for a list...just remember the following :

* When you see some stacking...STOP, GET OUT and throw it OFF the trail.

* NEVER STACK...all this BS about it's ok to stack as long as you unstack is simply BS...it doesn't happen 90% of the time.

* Educate the people (stackers) who don't understand the damage they are causing.

Also there is 'natural' trail errosion...i guess trails need to be maintained.

A bit little the HAMMERS...the local club 'maintains' the trails to a set difficulty.

My 0.02c

~Mike

Well Mike, I would agree with you, but....

Obviously people are not doing what they are Suppose To Do. I think, IMO, that we need to do some pro-active work here. If nothing else, maybe some people will catch on. If One person sees us out there working, maybe on his/her next trip out, they will do the same (in hopes of an exponential effect). It may seem that I have a bit too much faith in humanity, but I'm still willing to give it a try.
I've never thought that AZVJC was just a stand by and maybe something good will happen club. VJC is about getting it done.
My 0.02

[Wildcat455]

Jeeppeepin and Rufty Tufty BOTH have valid points, and I'm sure the answer lies somewhere in the middle. We are going to have to do BOTH things to get this under control.
Some immediate action on several trails to get the ball rolling, then sustained actions as we run the trails to keep them up.

Perhaps those who cannot participate in the organized de- stacking and cleaning will remember to preserve the efforts of those who did participate, by simply de- stacking and cleaning as they run the trails. There's also nothing stopping those who did participate in doing the same.

I guess all I'm saying is there are allot of People in this club, and they are pretty diverse, so a "one problem one solution" approach may not work.

As long as EVERYONE does something, it should work.

[wannabejeeper]

LOL!!!


Bottom line is if you need to build roads to get through a trail than you do not belong there.!! Why should I have to always clean up after the WANNA BE's.
If you can not make, use a friggin winch!!! or strap.

Hey, how'd I get drug into this?:D I don't stack at all, there's no rocks around curbs.:o


Carry on.

[jeff krause]

"
EVERYONE needs to apply a bit of common sense to this whole sport/activity/whatchamacallit we call wheeling. Listen to what's being said by people who've done the trails before you. Why should you feel offended if someone that knows you and your rig tells you to stay off a given trail??? Do you not think they're trying to help? There's no power trip involved, or "chest beating". Show some respect...for the people and the land.

Hey Tom,,,,

Think I can take my current set up through H2H or AA and be OK ??????
the malls getting boring.... ... I trust a few people to get me through stuff and not let me break my junk.. Tj's one of them... Listen to people otherwise you could easily be "that Guy" on the trail.

Jeff

[Tom Jacobson]

AA was done last weekend by a guy with a stock YJ on street tire 31's. No lockers and no regards for "cosmetics".

He's also a pretty good driver...but not quite right in the head! ;-) (Hope you're reading, Ryan!!!)

You're prolly being somewhat sarcastic in even asking, but you want an honest answer, Jeff? Yeah...I think you could get thru both trails. But not on your own. Going to need a winch on AA for sure (first fall). Someone else in group can cover you there (was done for me a few times before I got my own winch installed). A rear locker would be a huge help, but strap/winch and we'd get you thru. Spare parts are a must. Better to have and not need than vice versa!!!

And to be further honest...some more seat time out wheeling wouldn't hurt either. I don't think either of those are trails to be taken lightly. But...you gotta get it somewhere, sometime, right?!?!

[k7mto]

I had to winch in the first fall and the exit hill (is that really a "fall"?).
The rest of the trail is pretty tame.

[DsrtJeeper]

Hmm.:mad:

If you guys are done dancing around who was responsible, I'll say that one of my club members witnessed the event, tried to warn them verbally against their actions, and I'd be MORE than happy to spill who the culprits were...

Personally, I don't like the guy anyway...

Had you revealed the names before I did; you would have most likely received a PM from Joe Daro like I did...

"Do you feel better knowing those Names so you dont have to wheel with them??? Or do you feel better being the one to put the names out there??? Not that I am trying to hide names or tip toe around, But Eric, You were not even one of the people there, So now its 3rd party info, which may or may not be correct. Why dont you try to stay out of the drama, and just offer to come out and help clean up???? You have not changed one bit, and still have to be in front of all the drama, all the time.


Joe"

I still can't figure out why there is all this puthy footin around and the names were being withheld EXCEPT TBT???? Did you help clean up the mess Joe?

[DsrtJeeper]

Barry,
I am inferring that others were skirting around the issue and not naming names.
I was fully prepared to disclose who it was if there was an interest in this club knowing. However, before much interest was generated, the person responsible was revealed by a first hand witness.
BTW, it extends FURTHER than the trail you mentioned, because the trail I heard about was Annihilator.

In closing to you, my comments weren't directed at you, but if the shoe fits...

Now for my explanation.

If someone is f'ing up a trail and you witness it and don't have the nads to say who it was when you know who it was, then you are giving leverage to those people who seek to destroy what we all work hard for preventing. Sometimes the ONLY leverage you have as a group is PUBLIC HUMILITY for their actions. Not being willing to step up and CONFRONT publicly is weaksauce.

A-men! I do believe you found the real hypocrites at last.

[DsrtJeeper]

Hey guys, lets not turn this into a pissing match between VJC members. Thats not what its about. Bottom line is we have a SERIOUS PROBLEM here. Names are out, actions are out, and acountability needs to be assed. Bottom line. I didnt post any names for the OBVIOUS reasons. Hackle and Craig were also there to witness it. Now, WHAT SHOULD WE DO ABOUT THE PROBLEM?


Joe

Yes Joe....What are you doing about it?

[DsrtJeeper]

You can get to the beginning of Annihilator via dirt road. It begins where Predator ends. But you're right, I really don't think the guilty parties will be out there cleaning their mess any time soon. :mad: They have probably already rationalized their actions somehow to themselves and will never admit fault. That's just one group I will never wheel with. Ever.
It just angers me that the obstacle will never be the same. I'm so dissappointed. I haven't built my jeep yet to even try it yet, and now it's tainted. :( What a bunch of knobs.

Umm according to Jamie's PUSU report; you did ride with one of the group.???

Excuse me.....associated with, walked with whatever.

[DsrtJeeper]

Is anyone willing to drag my gimpy arse out to the oil spillage? I'd be glad to help clean the area. I have peat sorb and Simple Green. I know Barry's group is to be commended for actually doing what was suggested in this thread. Is anymore cleanup needed? I'm not ready to drive my own rig out there yet.

[Wind_Danzer]

Actually Eric, we didn't wheel with him/them, he showed us the trail that was run by him, his brother and I believe a few other BTG guys after asking if we wanted to see it. I was even the one to "ride" with him to the spot as she rode with her BTG friend. There was no wheeling to be had (only hiking of the trail) with him or anyone from that particular party and she had a very length discussion with the man in question afterwords and if she feels the need to tell you what that conversation entailed, she has every right to do so. I'll be honest though, she didn't go into much detail with me and I really didn't even ask her to. I just hope she got the info she needed to satisfy her.

What I saw this weekend he was a very nice guy in general and pleasant to be around. Granted we didn't wheel with him or see him wheel out on any particular trail though so I cannot comment on his trail ethics.

Please don't go assuming based on my post what exactly happened at PUSU on Friday night. If you have questions please ask you know I'll tell you the god honest truth.

[DsrtJeeper]

Actually Eric, we didn't wheel with him/them, he showed us the trail that was run by him, his brother and I believe a few other BTG guys after asking if we wanted to see it. I was even the one to "ride" with him to the spot as she rode with her BTG friend. There was no wheeling to be had (only hiking of the trail) with him or anyone from that particular party and she had a very length discussion with the man in question afterwords and if she feels the need to tell you what that conversation entailed, she has every right to do so. I'll be honest though, she didn't go into much detail with me and I really didn't even ask her to. I just hope she got the info she needed to satisfy her.

What I saw this weekend he was a very nice guy in general and pleasant to be around. Granted we didn't wheel with him or see him wheel out on any particular trail though so I cannot comment on his trail ethics.

Please don't go assuming based on my post what exactly happened at PUSU on Friday night. If you have questions please ask you know I'll tell you the god honest truth.

PMed you as you were typing this. :D

P.S. I've wheeled with a couple of the guys involved and also found them to be nice. It doesn't make them any less guilty. It's good to hear that Rachel had that talk. It needed to be done.

[Wind_Danzer]

PMed you as you were typing this. :D

P.S. I've wheeled with a couple of the guys involved and also found them to be nice. It doesn't make them any less guilty. It's good to hear that Rachel had that talk. It needed to be done.

PM'ed you back.

I know it doesn't make them any less guilty and I stated that (ie Trail ethics), I was going on personal observation in the moment as it was my first real meeting.

Just don't assume things with me Eric, you know better then that.

[DsrtJeeper]

PM'ed you back.

I know it doesn't make them any less guilty and I stated that (ie Trail ethics), I was going on personal observation in the moment as it was my first real meeting.

Just don't assume things with me Eric, you know better then that.

Jamie;
Nowhere in my post did I implicate you. Please re-read.

In reference to Rachel's post: Umm according to Jamie's PUSU report; you did ride with one of the group.???

[Wind_Danzer]

See your PM's, and you'll have a better understanding of where I am coming from.

As for re-reading... please re-read my PUSU section on him and tell me where I mentioned "wheel" in there.

[DsrtJeeper]

See your PM's, and you'll have a better understanding of where I am coming from.

As for re-reading... please re-read my PUSU section on him and tell me where I mentioned "wheel" in there.

You are correct and I changed my post to reflect so, if you read back.

[Wind_Danzer]

Ok dude..... thanks for the fix but now your PM has thrown me off.

So did we wheel with him based on your definition or not? Do you see how much hair splitting is happening here, just to call her out on this?

[DsrtJeeper]

Also; take note of the question marks at the end.

Umm according to Jamie's PUSU report; you did ride with one of the group.???

What do you suppose the question marks are posted there for? I gave Rachel the benefit of a doubt while still asking her if it were so. I'm done.

[Fire Ball]

All this talk of stacking I'll go one further.

I can't remember the trail we were on but it was out in the Tortilla Flats area on the way out to the hiking trails. Right after the parking lot, there is a very small ledge that I think a stocker might be able to make it up and some idiots were in the process of trying to put bags of concrete down to make permanent changes to the ledge. Obvious to say I told them this was not going to happen. I took pictures of their rigs so I had license numbers. They picked up their stuff and left. What a bunch of morons.

[Wind_Danzer]

I'm done too, you have fried my brain.

How was I supposed to know what the "???" stood for.

[DsrtJeeper]

All this talk of stacking I'll go one further.

I can't remember the trail we were on but it was out in the Tortilla Flats area on the way out to the hiking trails. Right after the parking lot, there is a very small ledge that I think a stocker might be able to make it up and some idiots were in the process of trying to put bags of concrete down to make permanent changes to the ledge. Obvious to say I told them this was not going to happen. I took pictures of their rigs so I had license numbers. They picked up their stuff and left. What a bunch of morons.

Thanks for confronting them and doing your part. Everyone is paranoid about this group or that group taking away our trails. The actual people using the trails are more of a threat! Anyone remember "The Ledge" on the way to CK? Why were the hills at Glamis closed at night? The Mookie incident that almost caused a big problem? There's many more examples in AZ and many other states. This crap is taken way too lightly.

[Jeeppeepin]

To clarify here.....

Bill and I did de-rock Annihilator.
There was no oil on the rocks as Craig Z did clean it up the following weekend.
And yes you can get to Annihilator via dirt road. It starts where Predator ends, and there is a dirt road just to the left.

[SHNIPE]

To clarify here.....

Bill and I did de-rock Annihilator.
There was no oil on the rocks as Craig Z did clean it up the following weekend.
And yes you can get to Upper Predator via dirt road. It starts where Predator ends, and there is a dirt road just to the left.


SHHHH!!!

Bill said it wasnt anything special and that it was called Upper Predator... Was he fibbing? I think he was messing with me.

So much being said in private and then half discussed in public that it confuses the issue. But if you guys talked to him about it thats cool on your part. I know Rachels not one to let stuff ride when it should be said.

Eric, Get to work! :D

[Jeeppeepin]

SHHHH!!!

Bill said it wasnt anything special and that it was called Upper Predator... Was he fibbing? I think he was messing with me.

So much being said in private and then half discussed in public that it confuses the issue. But if you guys talked to him about it thats cool on your part. I know Rachels not one to let stuff ride when it should be said.

Eric, Get to work! :D

D Sweetie, I don't think I posted publicly that I talked to anyone privately.
If you are reading someone elses PM, that may be where you are getting confused.

[Wind_Danzer]

I can sort of see his confusion as Eric and I were hashing it out here and in PM so some stuff might have gotten lost in translation someplace.

If you have questions, feel free to ask Dennis.

[SHNIPE]

D Sweetie, I don't think I posted publicly that I talked to anyone privately.
If you are reading someone elses PM, that may be where you are getting confused.

LOL Not you sweet pea :p I was talkin bout eric and jamie.

Nah jamie i think i got it somewhat sorted out. Just makin a point about the confusion it seemed to create (for me at least) Im good now.

[Jeeppeepin]

LOL Not you sweet pea :p I was talkin bout eric and jamie.

Nah jamie i think i got it somewhat sorted out. Just makin a point about the confusion it seemed to create (for me at least) Im good now.

Well quit reading "other's PM's" and there will be less confusion!:p
Glad you got it cleared up.

[SHNIPE]

Well quit reading "other's PM's" and there will be less confusion!:p
Glad you got it cleared up.
I hadnt read anyones PMs. Just seeing other peopel talking about stuff THEY pm'd each other :confused: Pay tension lil one :D

[Jeeppeepin]

I hadnt read anyones PMs. Just seeing other peopel talking about stuff THEY pm'd each other :confused: Pay tension lil one :D

K pookie.

[Wind_Danzer]

Ok, well it seems we don't have to worry about this anymore as Eric has actually followed through with the leaving thing this time.

It's kind of unfortunate but at the same time me getting drug into the cat fight annoied me a bit too.

Eric, if you do read this we'll be in touch. This crap I won't let get in the way of our friendship and I'll still wheel with you no problem.

[SHNIPE]

Ok, well it seems we don't have to worry about this anymore as Eric has actually followed through with the leaving thing this time.

It's kind of unfortunate but at the same time me getting drug into the cat fight annoied me a bit too.

Eric, if you do read this we'll be in touch. This crap I won't let get in the way of our friendship and I'll still wheel with you no problem.

Ill make sure he hears this :D

[LOST TJ]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=D4G1lr30bzc :D

[xFallen]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=D4G1lr30bzc :D

Yeah, no guano.

[Jeeppeepin]

Now that's just funny right there!

[mookee54]

Wow, incredible stuff here. Some really good ideas brought up but I think we're missing something here and that's communicate with those involved in the stacking (it looks like one or two may have though - good job!).
Nothing ever really makes things better by talking about peeps but typically things can and do get better by talking with them. I know when someone's PO'd at me about something, I'd much rather have them let me know what they're thinking than have them talking behind my back. Doesn't usually make for building bridges, only tears them down and makes you take sides.
Just my 2 sense worth.

[NVRSTUKXJ]

If someone is f'ing up a trail and you witness it and don't have the nads to say who it was when you know who it was, then you are giving leverage to those people who seek to destroy what we all work hard for preventing. Sometimes the ONLY leverage you have as a group is PUBLIC HUMILITY for their actions. Not being willing to step up and CONFRONT publicly is weaksauce.


peer pressure is a wonderful thing......thanx for posting up Bill

[Renob]

peer pressure is a wonderful thing......thanx for posting up BillThis only works if the offenders believe themselves to be peers of the accusers.