Since CONCERNS are todays topic....

[FlexyXJ]

So I got up this morning and headed out to Table mesa for some good wheelin. As I am unloading, I see a Silver XJ with a AZVJC sticker on it heading towards the Terminators. Figuring that I would be able too get with some other wheelers to run a trail, He turned off at the Big shooting gallery on the Left after the 2nd "Y". Now, lets flash back to the area that I spent (as well as MANY other VJC'ers) Many hours cleaning up, I stopped to see If he was pulling over to meet up or what. Well he turned down into the shooting gallery, so I kept going on my own. Went and ran Collateral damage, then headed back to the trailer. As I drive back by the shooting gallery about 2 hours later, I see a XJ with the hatch open (Nice, clean bright AZVJC stickers on the fenders) just shooting away at nothing. I sat and watched for about 10 min where he could see me and about 15 away from view. There, along with 3 other vehicles, just sat and shot at the junk on the ground or whatever was around. Took some pictures and some video, and headed on home. Now. Does anyone remember when the pride of AZVJC was in what you did for the OHV community????? Those many hours we spent cleaning out there went away today. Granted, as with all shooters, I am sure they picked up all of thier stuff (EVERY shooter Hackle spoke to during the clean up told him they did) But This is one of our "own". C'mon people lets not do this, there are many places to shoot, lets not contribute to the problem. 'Nuff said. I hope this member see's this and can explain.


Joe

[WalterD]

You know what they say. One aaww sh*t wipes out a thousand atta boys.
Walter

[DsrtJeeper]

Not surprised in the least. :mad:

[John_P]

Interesting.

[PMFG!ItsaGP]

Sorry about that...I was drunk and forgot you guys spent all that time cleaning up.*stirring the pot*

[DsrtJeeper]

Sorry about that...I was drunk and forgot you guys spent all that time cleaning up.*stirring the pot*

I'm glad you can find humor in this and the BBQ post. It shows your maturity and how you'd handle this situation.

[PMFG!ItsaGP]

I'm glad you can find humor in this and the BBQ post. It shows your maturity and how you'd handle this situation.You are one seriously wound up dude. Its know wonder everyone thinks you're a douche bag.

[FrenchChili]

You are one seriously wound up dude. Its know wonder everyone thinks you're a douche bag.

And you were complaining about people's spelling errors:rolleyes: pfff sad....

...and how much effort have you put into this community anyways?

[DsrtJeeper]

You are one seriously wound up dude. Its know wonder everyone thinks you're a douche bag.

I could care less what anyone thinks of me. Your reply once again shows your immaturity. Sounds like a high school popularity contest...:rolleyes:

[PMFG!ItsaGP]

And you were complaining about people's spelling errors:rolleyes: pfff sad....

...and how much effort have you put into this community anyways?I left a bunch of brass behind for you to clean up the next time you go on a clean up. I would say thats a pretty good effort. Drunken spelling is off limits to ridicule. Frog.:rolleyes:

[Markos]

Wow.

So I guess I'm not the only one who thinks you should be mindful of your actions when sporting an AZVJC sticker...

[azdesertrhino]

Sorry about that...I was drunk and forgot you guys spent all that time cleaning up.*stirring the pot*


I assume you are trying to make a joke about it. Either that or you're as big an idiot as your posts make sound. No need to respond to my post, I'm now testing the "ignore list" function!

[PMFG!ItsaGP]

Wow.

So I guess I'm not the only one who thinks you should be mindful of your actions when sporting an AZVJC sticker...
Youre right. Its a good thing I dont own a silver XJ with a AZVJC sticker on it or a gun, or I might get in trouble

[PMFG!ItsaGP]

I assume you are trying to make a joke about it. Either that or you're as big an idiot as your posts make sound. No need to respond to my post, I'm now testing the "ignore list" function!
Thats a neat silver XJ in your avatar. And you cant ignore the drama

[Boo69]

[QUOTE=PMFG!ItsaGP;137924]Thats a neat silver XJ in your avatar.


I'm not shir I understand. Why was he driving around in his silver XJ drunk and shooting.:confused:

[Jdemonto@Airpark Jeep Sales]

PMFG!ItsaGP has been on my ignore list since that whole trip leader post:rolleyes:

[jeremy rice]

here we go again.

[PMFG!ItsaGP]

PMFG!ItsaGP has been on my ignore list since that whole trip leader post:rolleyes:
Yet youre still like a moth to a flame...

[GLEN REAMS]

so set aside everything else goin on does anyone have an idea who it might have been? i have a silver xj but no club stickers so i guess im off the hook :D

[YJunk]

You are one seriously wound up dude. Its know wonder everyone thinks you're a douche bag.

Just for the record... I don't think Ericks a douche... I want to make that clear.

Some people like him some don't, some don't care... He's never attacked me on a personal level and I think honestly the few times we've crossed on the board we've actually handled our isht pretty well. In person I find him to be a stand up guy... We all have opinions and they're easy to express on a board where pretty much anything goes.

We're people, molded by our past, environments etc... we're all different. The true measure (to me) of our ability to exist is our willingness to meet an issue or belief head on and deal with... Crap, if Cronk and I agreed on everything what would all of you do... Despite our little dance last week, we put it to bed over some jack and the evntual dissapreance of my jeep...

So for what its worth, on the board Erick may always be Nancy to me... but in the bigger picture, he's never done me wrong and I think thats worth noting.

[desertfabmotors]

Personally, All shooting should be shut down out there, If you want to shoot go to a shooting range.

I was out there a couple weeks ago and people were shooting across the road. If things do not change out there someone is going to be killed!!!
We will also lose access to this area to wheel.

I do not feel this is something to be joking about!!

[Spongebob]

I don't think that shooting should be shut down out there, but I do think that safety rules should be enforced. I've been shooting out there for years in a safe respectable manner and never had a problem. It's the idiots that pull right off of the road and unload a couple hundred rapid fire rounds that are the problem. The shooting world has its irresponsible idiots just as the OHV community does.

[GLEN REAMS]

Personally, All shooting should be shut down out there, If you want to shoot go to a shooting range.

I was out there a couple weeks ago and people were shooting across the road. If things do not change out there someone is going to be killed!!!
We will also lose access to this area to wheel.

I do not feel this is something to be joking about!!

X2 im really suprised that there have no been any deaths shooting related accidents out there yet with the people out there that shoot across the roads or shoot propaine tanks sometime i really wonder how stupid can some people really be
-Glen

[PMFG!ItsaGP]

I don't think that shooting should be shut down out there, but I do think that safety rules should be enforced. I've been shooting out there for years in a safe respectable manner and never had a problem. It's the idiots that pull right off of the road and unload a couple hundred rapid fire rounds that are the problem. The shooting world has its irresponsible idiots just as the OHV community does.
Exactly! Sadly though "John Q. Public" doesnt care about the good guys that do their part and practice their hobbies responsibly.

[YJunk]

... i really wonder how stupid can some people really be -Glen

I'm sure me and flexy joe can give you some insight into that...

[desertfabmotors]

I don't think that shooting should be shut down out there, but I do think that safety rules should be enforced. I've been shooting out there for years in a safe respectable manner and never had a problem. It's the idiots that pull right off of the road and unload a couple hundred rapid fire rounds that are the problem. The shooting world has its irresponsible idiots just as the OHV community does.

BS, It needs to be shut down, it is out of control out there. The only way to clean the area up is to close it to shooting.
Go to a shooting range, saftey rules are already in place.

[Spongebob]

And for the record, whenever I am out there, I ALWAYS police my brass and remove my targets. I have a wooden frame that I bring out with me to staple targets to. That keeps it simple and easy to carry away. I cannot tell you how irritating it is too see people bring out glass and steel trash to shoot at then just leave it there. I would much rather see people bring out melons or something to shoot at that simply decomposes with time. Oh well, all that we can really do is continue to clean up after these people.

[desertfabmotors]

Exactly! Sadly though "John Q. Public" doesnt care about the good guys that do their part and practice their hobbies responsibly.

I do not care about the responsible shooters out there, there are not very many. Just look at the area, it is a fuc*** mess out there. and it is dangerous.
Go to a shooting range!!

[Spongebob]

BS, It needs to be shut down, it is out of control out there. The only way to clean the area up is to close it to shooting.
Go to a shooting range, saftey rules are already in place.

Perhaps, but the same could also be said about all othe OHV'ers that roam around out there and throw out trash. I'm sure that we've also seen crazy folks out there going way too fast with just a little too much liquor in them causing just as much of a safety hazard as those with guns. And let's not forget about the numerous jeepers that I've seen out there forging their own trails rather than using the ones that are already cut. There is plenty of desert out there for everyone. We all just need to use it respectfully and safely.

[jeeper05]

Well bein a shooter and a wheeler why would want to shoot where other people are recreating you can be a responsable shooter only until the bullet leaves the barrel unless you firing at a target backed by a HUGE pile of dirt or an enclosed backstop once that bullet contacts a rock its any bodys guess where that bullet is headed personally I wouldnt want to be responsable for a zingin bullet in the open desert full other people.Just my thoughts

[desertfabmotors]

Perhaps, but the same could also be said about all othe OHV'ers that roam around out there and throw out trash. I'm sure that we've also seen crazy folks out there going way too fast with just a little too much liquor in them causing just as much of a safety hazard as those with guns. And let's not forget about the numerous jeepers that I've seen out there forging their own trails rather than using the ones that are already cut. There is plenty of desert out there for everyone. We all just need to use it respectfully and safely.

Two separate issues, In the worst case, do you ever see trash like that on the trail, and my life is not in danger.
There is so much shi* on the ground you can not see dirt. Then the ones shooting across the road, and shooting at night. It is not getting better out there it is getting worse. Now add more people riding, jeepin, ect.. some one is going to shot.

[desertfabmotors]

Well bein a shooter and a wheeler why would want to shoot where other people are recreating you can be a responsable shooter only until the bullet leaves the barrel unless you firing at a target backed by a HUGE pile of dirt or an enclosed backstop once that bullet contacts a rock its any bodys guess where that bullet is headed personally I wouldnt want to be responsable for a zingin bullet in the open desert full other people.Just my thoughts

exactly!!!

[joedokes28]

I do not care about the responsible shooters out there, there are not very many. Just look at the area, it is a fuc*** mess out there. and it is dangerous.
Go to a shooting range!!


I understand your frustration. I have heard bullets go whizzing by while riding my quad out there on more than one occasion.

I feel that closing this area to shooters is a bad idea. I feel it would "set the wheels in motion" for other types of closures as well.

Law Enforcement at Table Mesa is key. With it's proximity to Anthem, and the amount of use use the area sees, one would think that law enforcement would be more active in the area. I would wager that 95% of the users of the area don't know that a State Trust permit is required. If LEO's were to start ticketing people for this infraction alone, things at Table Mesa would improve.

[Spongebob]

Two separate issues, In the worst case, do you ever see trash like that on the trail, and my life is not in danger.
There is so much shi* on the ground you can not see dirt. Then the ones shooting across the road, and shooting at night. It is not getting better out there it is getting worse. Now add more people riding, jeepin, ect.. some one is going to shot.

I agree with you on these examples. Again, there needs to be a lot more common sense out there. But to single out one group of outdoor enthusiasts from using the desert because of the actions of a few is not the answer. Sure, shooters could go to the range, but 4x4 enthusiasts could also be required to go to a designated track. And I have been out there with drunks driving at speeds well over 50 MPH on the MSR roads.....they ARE endangering my life out there. It may be two different issues, but common sense is needed everywhere out there.

[desertfabmotors]

I understand your frustration. I have heard bullets go whizzing by while riding my quad out there on more than one occasion.

I feel that closing this area to shooters is a bad idea. I feel it would "set the wheels in motion" for other types of closures as well.

Law Enforcement at Table Mesa is key. With it's proximity to Anthem, and the amount of use use the area sees, one would think that law enforcement would be more active in the area. I would wager that 95% of the users of the area don't know that a State Trust permit is required. If LEO's were to start ticketing people for this infraction alone, things at Table Mesa would improve.

When someone is shot or killed, it will be shut down. Law enforcement has already been brought up. Thier excuse is there in not any money in the budget for that.

[Spongebob]

Well bein a shooter and a wheeler why would want to shoot where other people are recreating you can be a responsable shooter only until the bullet leaves the barrel unless you firing at a target backed by a HUGE pile of dirt or an enclosed backstop once that bullet contacts a rock its any bodys guess where that bullet is headed personally I wouldnt want to be responsable for a zingin bullet in the open desert full other people.Just my thoughts


You are correct! Being a responsible shooter means that you find a good backstop and don't shoot where you have no idea of the final impact. Again, what gives the OHV community the sole lease on the desert? It is there for everyone's enjoyment and safe use......not just one specific group.

[FlexyXJ]

IMHO, When and IF you need to go out an target shoot, then do that. Shoot @ a TARGET. Clean up your mess. Like I said, I watched this person just shoot at trash that was out there on the ground. Shoot @ an old propane tank on a stick, and other misc trash on the ground. I know he saw me, I didnt try to hide. My jeep is pretty obvious at who owns it. My problem that really bothers me is That was the area I spent almost 4 hours cleaning up, so it rather pisses me off. I too, am a gun owner, but when I go shooting, its at an indoor range @ TARGETS. Not to just hear the noise. Sorry, I am still rather pissed about this whole thing.


Joe

[jeeper05]

I agree with that to a point however I still wonder how a responsable shooter would fire a gun in a area that is full of people not knowing where the shot will end up.Sorry but just pickin up your targets and brass doesnt = responable to me while I agree that you and I should be allowed to shoot in the desert there is a lot a desert with no trails.As far as the drunkin speedin offroaders while I agree with you once again at least you were able to and or hear them before they could impact the side of your head or even worse a loved one..

[desertfabmotors]

You are correct! Being a responsible shooter means that you find a good backstop and don't shoot where you have no idea of the final impact. Again, what gives the OHV community the sole lease on the desert? It is there for everyone's enjoyment and safe use......not just one specific group.


The friggin point is we are going to lose access to this area in the near future because of the mess and the danger. There will be no access to OHV or shooting.
The ones making the mess are the shooters, so i say close it to shooting or find a way to clean it up and keep it clean and safe.
It would piss me off to lose access to OHV because of the shooters.

[jeeper05]

This is a pretty hot topic as well it should be I just wonder if the individual responsable for causin this thread has the bag to man up and say I did it I doubt it but stranger things have happened.

[AZG23]

Todd...you sounds JUST like the Sierra club....and every other environmental group...


"it's baaaaaaad, shut it down!"

Not to be disprespectful...but you need to chill out about closing areas....the desert is there for everyone...even the irresponsible idiots...

I dont like, no wait...I HATE the fact that there are people who dont give a ish about the world they live in....but you have no right to yell close an area to shooters (otherwise known as ME) when I am safe and responsible...

As for the dipwad shooting out there...hey stupid..knock it off...

[Spongebob]

The friggin point is we are going to lose access to this area in the near future because of the mess and the danger. There will be no access to OHV or shooting.
The ones making the mess are the shooters, so i say close it to shooting or find a way to clean it up and keep it clean and safe.
It would piss me off to lose access to OHV because of the shooters.

Sad to say it, but the only way that we can keep it clean and safe is to continue to clean up after other people and practice safe shooting techniques. It is perfectly legal to shoot out there provided of course that you're following all of the applicable state laws concerning the discharge of a firearm. I feel that it would be a great injustice to close off any portion of these public lands to a hobby that I feel can be enjoyed safely and responsibly. A shooting range is not always the answer. For instance, in-door ranges often disallow large caliber high powered rifles for good reason. Where do you go to shoot those?

It is not only the shooters that are going to get the lands taken away from us.....it is the irresponsible folks on all different sides of the equasion that are going to cost us in the long run.

[AZG23]

It is not only the shooters that are going to get the lands taken away from us.....it is the irresponsible folks on all different sides of the equasion that are going to cost us in the long run.


Amen!

[PMFG!ItsaGP]

Todd...you sounds JUST like the Sierra club....and every other environmental group...


"it's baaaaaaad, shut it down!"

Not to be disprespectful...but you need to chill out about closing areas....the desert is there for everyone...even the irresponsible idiots...:eek: Oh no you didnt!!

but you have no right to yell close an area to shooters (otherwise known as ME) when I am safe and responsible...

Actually he does have a right to yell "shut it down". Just like you have the right to tell him he sounds like a wacko greenie.

[azdesertrhino]

PMFG!ItsaGP has been on my ignore list since that whole trip leader post:rolleyes:


It's the first I've used it but appears to work well. Can still read the thread without "listening" to unwanted interference.

[desertdawg]

I have done my fair share of shooting in the desert as a kid. Now when I shoot it's always at a shooting range. It's not only safer but it's also better for the environment. You all say that you pick up your brass and only shoot at targets but have you ever thought about where all the lead is going. All that lead is doing more harm to the environment then anything else.

It's getting so bad out there that I have to agree with Todd. I think they should close the area off to shooting and allow access with a free permit like they do for Bulldog Canyon. Bulldog Canyon was getting to be the same way with illegal dumping and shooting. Have any of you been out there lately? It's rare to see trash on that trail. Why can't they do the same for TM?

[YJunk]

I have done my fair share of shooting in the desert as a kid. Now when I shoot it's always at a shooting range. It's not only safer but it's also better for the environment. You all say that you pick up your brass and only shoot at targets but have you ever thought about where all the lead is going. All that lead is doing more harm to the environment then anything else.

It's getting so bad out there that I have to agree with Todd. I think they should close the area off to shooting and allow access with a free permit like they do for Bulldog Canyon. Bulldog Canyon was getting to be the same way with illegal dumping and shooting. Have any of you been out there lately? It's rare to see trash on that trail. Why can't they do the same for TM?

I've already put my pickle in the grinder today so I'm not gonna stick it in this one... I would say though, I was really impressed with the condition of Bulldog Canyon... I think this is a good model and one that should be adopted elsewhere. It has to be one of the cleanest area's I've seen...

[AZG23]

I fully disagree that ranges are safer...Ive had more guns pointed at me, or my general direction at ranges than I EVER have in the desert..

ummm.....where does lead come from..?? ;)

[GLEN REAMS]

kinda off topic but does anyone know who to contact when it comes to seeing people dumping trash in the desert and just leaving there trash behind when they leave?i saw someone dumping 4 trash barrels today in the desert behind my house becuase they forgot to put out there trash cans i tryed to chase them they had a hemi i have a jeep so they won but i got a plate number but dont know who to contact about it, Thanks
-Glen

[PMFG!ItsaGP]

ummm.....where does lead come from..?? ;)lol!

[desertdawg]

I fully disagree that ranges are safer...Ive had more guns pointed at me, or my general direction at ranges than I EVER have in the desert..

ummm.....where does lead come from..?? ;)

Uh yes I know.:rolleyes: But it's not exposed like it is at TM. Do you know they will shut down shooting ranges for high levels of lead.

[desertdawg]

I fully disagree that ranges are safer...Ive had more guns pointed at me, or my general direction at ranges than I EVER have in the desert..

I disagree with you there. Most ranges I have been on the rangemasters are pretty strict about handling your weapons while people are down range plus you don't have the risk of richochets or stray bullets hitting wheelers or hikers. Tell me it's safer shooting in the desert with your buddies who are loading their weapons while your fixing the targets.:rolleyes:

[AZG23]

Im not talking downrange....Im talking at the tables at Ben Avery...I quit doing rnges after the 3rd time...Ive seen unsafe handling at Scottsdale GC and Caswells also...

and I dont know bout you..but I dont shoot with unsafe yahoos..:D

[azrubyman]

Just my .02.
What is with all this, fence 'em gate 'em and lets all pay another freaking fee everytime there is an issue?
I'm sorry folks, but when I add it all up, it sounds like surrender on our part.
Fences, and gates and fees wont stop the illegal dumpers, the illegal shooters, the vandals or any of the other criminal nimrods out there. Sure the area that is fenced and has a fee will improve but the rot will just be pushed to another spot.
What will stop them is law enforcement, fines and jail time. Period.
When you see them, call the law, if you can get their plate numbers and vehicle description even better.
I know the resounding cry from the law.."we don't have enough officers" and I believe them. So what we need to do is put pressure on our illustrious governor to ACTUALLY do something and hire more cops. And we need to put pressure on our legislature to pay for them.
Ken

[chopped7]

I dont shoot with unsafe yahoos..

Yes you do if you're at Table Mesa. There are plenty of them out there. I've had a bullet whizz by real close to my camp. Close enough to scare me. Another time I was camping up there, there were 2 motorhomes (my family and another) camped in an an area just off the main road. Some trigger happy idiots came tearing right through our camp in the middle of the night blasting a handgun out the window. I guess they just wanted to hear their gun or something.

It's good to know that you and your friends are responsible about shooting but unfortunately, I think you're in the minority. THe majority of the shooters up there on the weekends don't give a sh*t. If they did, the area wouldn't look like it does. If you get off the main road, where only the 'wheelers and atvs can go, it is much cleaner.

[AZXJ]

I have done my fair share of shooting in the desert as a kid. Now when I shoot it's always at a shooting range. It's not only safer but it's also better for the environment. You all say that you pick up your brass and only shoot at targets but have you ever thought about where all the lead is going. ?

Straight into Lake pleasent.. one of our drinking water/irrigation sources.. HMMM... now theres food for thought..

[RufftyTuffty]

After the greenies get finished with FJ...they will start on TM.

So...with all the trash on the ground round every bend....how long do you think it's gonna take them to get it gated???

The answer : Not long.

~Mike

[jeeper05]

with all the trash left in the desert by illegals wonder why the greenies dont push for a gate down south as hard as they push to keep legals out of the desert.

[desertfabmotors]

:eek: Oh no you didnt!!

Actually he does have a right to yell "shut it down". Just like you have the right to tell him he sounds like a wacko greenie.

Yea, that is it I am a Wacko Greene, Give me a break!!! This area is a fuc** disaster. I have been going out there for 20 years and all it has done is got worst. How many clean ups have we had ou there over the years??? It is not getting cleaner that is for sure. 90% of the people that shoot out there are not responsible JUST LOOK AT THE AREA.
My biggest problem out there the shooting where ever you want, there are to many people riding out there to b e shooting like they do.
someone is going to be killed or shot.
I take my kids shooting all the time, I go to a shooting range!!! I sure do not teach my kids firing rounds at junk, trash or just into a dirt mound is responsible.

All I am saying if things do not change out there we will lose it!!

I am done with this.

Todd
The Greene:p

[knockonit]

Shutting it down will come soon enough, as soon as Yavapai county can come up with the money to put in some improvements for access to the lake, it will be over.
Once and if they shut it down to shooters, camper access will be shut down right behind it along with all the access uses.
Condoning a shut down is or can be foolish. It gives them a foothold to complete the lack of access to the public. I'm sure many of you involved in the forest service and blm issues know how this works, one it starts the snowball will only stop when nothing is left.
Several gun clubs have tried to advise people of the problems, but these are people that will cut down the fence, cut the lock and do as they please no matter what, their concern for your intended use and access is not on their list of things to consider, they will just move on to another location and start over.
Just because some idiots create a problem doesnt' mean the whole be punished.
NOt sure what the answer is, will somebody be hurt by a idiot with a gun, probably one day, will someone be hurt wheeling, probably one day, do we shut it down because of it. It would be like shutting down the freeway because an accident happened.
IS wheeling access different from shooting, I'm sure those that wheel will tell you a confirmed YES but those that shoot will have the same say. The idiots that shoot and wheel outside the box, won't even show up or care.
The public has lost plenty of access to public lands from the so called "green weenies", giving them ammo to start locking down another location is silly, as mentioned before it will happen soon enough.
Its one of those things that rubs alot the wrong way, perhaps perseverance with the clean ups and communitcation will eventually rule the day.
One can only hope.

[xFallen]

Straight into Lake pleasent.. one of our drinking water/irrigation sources.. HMMM... now theres food for thought..

That ship sailed a long time ago. There's so much mercury around due to the gold and other forms of mining done in Arizona that it absolutely pales compared to lead content in the very small quantities introduced by the target shooter's out there. I don't have the numbers at hand but any one interested could easily find them. Or, maybe someone here can make up some "facts" for us. There are countless numbers of mines above that artificial lake, and it probably scooped up a few when the area was flooded.

Like many charged discussions, there's not a lot of fact and lots of emotional content here, and I am not referring to the lead thing Dave. I am referring to the comment about good shooters being the minority and the very apparent general tone of objectifying them as some bad evil group.

What a bunch of crap. It was already pointed out (and ignoredthat like any group there are good and there are not so good. The good ones go un-noticed and the few bad ones are used as poster examples for the entire group. Again, what a bunch of crap.

That doesn't mean there is not a problem. There is, so let's address it.

Using the land for target shooting is legal and no different, absolutely no diffeerent, than off-road driving on trails, according to some. They both can do damge to the environment. So does taking a crap in the wood and peeing on rocks, and getting up in the morning, but I digress.

Just be aware, the very same arguments many of you are using against "the shooters" are used against "the wheelers" and "the OHVers". It all sounds the same. One effective way to win against a group is to divide and conquer. Keep it up, you're doing a great job at nailing our coffin.

Maybe some degree of segregation makes sense, especially where bullets are involved, I get it. But I would not want to see it in the form of fences and gates. There are plenty of laws on the books now that would make this all work if they were observed. Law enforcement involveent may help curb the stupid people who shoot unsafely and the discourteous people who litter the desert with trash. You know, like some of you dimwits who leave your beer, water and soda cans on the trails.

Think instead of things to IMPROVE it. For example, do the cleanups. Continue with education within and outside of your own ranks. Write constructive letters to the right people. Press for sensible laws that retain access to all areas for all users.


Barry

[paparonbo]

Thre are many Forest Service areas with signs saying "High population density, No target shooting". I know that along the Verde river near Needle Rock the have this kind of designation. Why can't the BLM have a similar policy?

[xFallen]

Thre are many Forest Service areas with signs saying "High population density, No target shooting". I know that along the Verde river near Needle Rock the have this kind of designation. Why can't the BLM have a similar policy?

People would probably shoot the sign so much you wouldn't be able to see it.

Remember the sign that went up out at the parking area at TM? I would have liked to have been around when the clueless wonders who started in on it were in the act.


Barry

[WalterD]

Or maybe it was an enviro. Put a sticker on your Jeep, go out, bust up and trash some trails. Then go over and shoot the crap out of the desert. Then let each group try to "shut down" the other. Guess who wins?

Walter

[WalterD]

"High population density, No target shooting"

I used to shoot out on the West side North of Buckeye at the local shooting area "desert". I was with several others, excellent place to shoot, no homes for miles, good backstop and burms on the sides. We had just finished shooting and was reloading when kids on dirt bikes came riding through between us and our targets. No more desert shooting for me, shooting range only.
Closing it is NOT the answer.
Walter

[Wildcat455]

Let's go Wheelin'!!

[FlexyXJ]

I think this thread got sidetracked somewhere around the 2nd page. BOTTOM LINE....IT WAS AN ARIZONA VIRTUAL JEEP CLUB MEMBER. You dont get those stickers out of a Lucky Charms box, so he had to buy it from someone. Instead of bouncing this around with closures and such (which will happen sooner rather than later) lets see a response from that person. Damn it! We spend so much time out there cleaning it up, that even if you dont like shooting ranges, at least go somewhere else to shoot other than TABLE MESA!!! If you want to go shoot in the desert, fine. Just go somewhere other than Table Mesa where its such a hot spot. (I know I dont have to tell you to pick up the trash, because EVERY shoother does so. Just ask them)


Joe