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View Full Version : URGENT.... Copper Sticker RESPONSES



Sandee McCullen
11-20-2006, 11:09 PM
Copper Sticker proposal

OHV Enthusiasts,

I know this is lengthy but it is the background info regarding the proposed Copper Sticker (OHV Use Permit) proposed for legislation submission on Dec. 8, 2006. The "draft" as posted on the Game & Fish WEB site is NOT what the OHV community or workgroup supports. It's CLOSE but if left "open ended" OHV LOSE and the Enviros WIN. PLEASE take a few minutes and read this and then cut and paste the 5 issues and any of the suggested issues into your personal mail and send to Game & Fish immediately. OUR FUTURE depends on ALL OHV sending in their comments. You can be assured the radical environmentalists are doing just that!!!!!

Please forward this to your club/group, friends, fellow OHV'ers, family, or neighbors. Out of state groups can also be a help.
You can download the draft legislation and get additional information at the department's Web site at azgfd.gov/coppersticker. You can submit your opinion in two simple ways: through that Game and Fish Web site or by U.S. mail to OHV Comments, c/o Joe Sacco, Arizona Game and Fish Department, 2221 W. Greenway Road, Phoenix, AZ 85023-4399. www.jsacco@azgfd.gov

History:
The planning on this started behind closed doors with Game & Fish and Law Enforcement approximately 5-6 years ago. There were rumors Game & Fish were looking at all the dollars being dedicated to Law Enforcement. Two years ago there were “select” persons from the OHV community invited to join this work group. This group met monthly or nearly monthly working through OHV laws and how to fund. Again, the original percentages dedicated the larger portion to Game & Fish. This was an intense process as each time the group, as a whole, agreed on a supporting issue when it came back to the table it had been changed. This went on for months. We were told the draft proposal would go to the public and the legislators prior to submission. Then suddenly a bill appeared within the House that no one knew about. This bill was killed, and revived in the Senate with Senator Flake supporting it. This bill was close to what the workgroup had agreed but it was missing several important issues that had again been deleted or changed. This was never resolved by the time the bill started through the committees. The committees tore the proposal apart. This was from pulling all OHV laws; deleting the Copper Sticker funding; pulling the OHV funding from State Parks and directing to G&F to the OHV laws back in but with no penalties allowed. This was also killed only to be revived again through a Striker Bill. This was left to die a natural death at the end of legislative session. We were always told this was intended to be a User Driven Bill.

Back to the table. Game & Fish requested the OHV partners draft a proposal to present to the group. This was done. The following meeting all issues were agreed to except the seats on the Arizona State Parks OHV Advisory Group. The Arizona Off Highway Vehicle Coalition met and agreed on a compromise to present. This compromise was submitted to Game & Fish at the next meeting of the work group. There was no discussion and no consideration. It was then announced this was not a User Driven Bill, it was now to be presented as a “Cooperative Bill”. Game & Fish had already made plans to go forth to the public WITHOUT a presentation the group had agreed to.

G&F seem to believe this money is THEIRS……………….. To do with as they and/or the G&F Commission wish. IT IS NOT THEIRS. G&F are simply WELL PAID "ADMINISTORS". The recommendations of how and where the 50% OHV dollars go is up to the OHV Advisory Group. It is OUR money. "USER PAY, USER RECEIVE"

At this time G&F have just finished ten public meetings across the state.......... Almost no ASA4WDC clubs were represented at any of them. It may be that many of you don't want a Use Sticker but at this time THERE WILL BE ONE WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT. The problem is:

*** The "draft" as it is right now is NOT what the workgroup or the OHV group agreed to. It is CLOSE. The OHV laws are good and the basic concept is good. But no matter what the workgroup agreed to It was always turned to what G&F and the ENVIROS want. IF OHV do not get the issues listed below into this draft, the dollars WE will be REQUIRED to pay will go to G&F and the ENVIROS.

*** The other side of this issue is if G&F go ahead and submit to legislation the draft as it exists right now without support of the OHV community we can kill the bill like last year BUT if we kill it this year, and I'm certain we can, the counties are now waiting in the sidelines to implement their own permits for each county and ALL these dollars go to the specific county.............. NOTHING to OHV or our issues. OR, the feds will simply implement numerous OHV FEE AREAS that will be much more than $10.00 - $15.00 per year. OHV MUST step up to the plate and help "support their own". If land managers cannot MANAGE the lands as mandated, WE LOSE. They will close trails to meet what they determine they can "manage".


These are a MUST:
1. This "bill" MUST be submitted as a USER DRIVEN BILL.

(this has always been supported as a USER DRIVEN bill………… the first the workgroup heard of anything different was the LAST workgroup meeting prior to the public meetings.)

2. The Advisory Group MUST REMAIN as it is. ALL members must represent an OHV organization and the two public at large must represent casual recreation with knowledge and support of OHV.( This DEMAND from G&F to REQUIRE G&F be allowed THREE automatic appointments to the Advisory Group each year was first brought up at the LAST workgroup meeting before the public meetings. This demand came from the Environmental groups. Sierra Club and CBD are the two leaders. They DEMAND seats on the OHV board, the DEMAND "No dollars from this fund go to "opening new trails", They DEMAND 60% - 75% of the OHV 50% for law enforcement and an additional 20% of the 50% to Environmental rehab. No other Advisory Board in the state have OHV members………. The History; Archaeology; non-motorized trails (remember, we share the RTP dollars from Federal Highways 50/50 with non-motorized now); etc…………. If the environmentals get seats on OHVAG we'll end up like California within 3 years. NOTE #1: Also remember, this Advisory Group already oversees the OHV Gas Tax funds and the RTP funds. The enviros would also have a say in the disbursements of these dollars also!!!!!!!!!!
NOTE #2: The Coalition Resolution had originally offered a "compromise" regarding the "mandatory 3 seats for G&F on the Advisory Board". It was 2 seats with some parameters to keep the "die hard environmentalists at bay". G&F has refused to even consider this compromise so the OHV Coalition has pulled this offer and are supporting "Leave the OHVAG as is".)


3. The 60% cap on the individual catagories from the 50% OHV dollars MUST have a time limit. "The cap cannot be used in the same disbursement category two or more consecutive years".
(if no guidelines G&F will direct 60% of the OHV grants portion (50%) to law enforcement each year. G&F are already telling the enviros they can receive 60% of the 50% for law enforcement and/or enviromental rehab under a "Long term agreement". G&F have announced in the public meetings they plan on using this 50% of OHV funds to fund "long term funding". Remember, G&F already receive 7% for administering the fund; 15% for JUST G&F law enforcement; and an additional 15% for OHV education!!! They receive 30% of the Gas Tax dollars now ($800,000.00) for OHV law enforcement and education…….. When's the last time anyone within OHV see any of these funds used for them? The OHV Education trailer is now sitting at the Ben Avery Shooting Range being used as an office!!!!!

4. ALL motorized vehicles that travel off a highway or maintained road must require a Copper Sticker.
(The "workgroup" proposed EVERYONE be required a sticker but G&F have time and time again changed it back to THEIR WAY. They claim the legislators will "not approve a double tax on licensed vehicles". Duh!! The proposal as is written by G&F is: ALL licensed and unlicensed ATV's; ALL licensed and unlicensed dirt bikes & dual sport bikes; but ONLY UNLICENSED UTV's (rhinos, golf carts) and full sized vehicles. WHY would it not be a double tax on ATV's and bikes if this was the reason. The real reason is IF it affects ALL it means the Sierra Clubbers; CBD; mountain bikers; bird watchers; and equestrian that actually DRIVE OFF the maintained roads that their LICENSE PAYS TO MAINTAIN will have to have a Copper Sticker. It doesn't matter if their 1st choice of sport is 'motorized recreation', they need to help pay for the maintenance of the trails and the management and education of ethical use just the same. There are exemption allowances for ranchers, miners, and county/state maintenance)

5. The "fee" MUST BE SET BY THE ADVISORY BOARD, NOT the G&F Commission.
(there is no reason G&F Commission should have any say in this fund other than the mandated "yea or nay" approval/disapproval. The Advisory Group should make the recommendations. This issue was discussed at length in the workgroup. It was always agreed the fee would "NOT exceed $20.00". The recommended fee was $15.00. Not sure when G&F slipped this new "commission rules" phrase in but remember the enviros definitely are in bed with G&F. This fee was agreed to because it fits with the surrounding states and also allows for reciprocity.
NOTE: The workgroup also recommended there be a "family discount of 1/2 fee" for all vehicles titled to the same person. G&F have ignored this.


These are issues that are important but won't make or break the bill or specifically hurt OHV:
In view that G&F have refused to even look at the compromise from the OHV Coalition re the "seats on the OHV Advisory Board" the Coalition has pulled it's support of a compromise. We ask the Advisory group remain as is. (Remember, if G&F or the enviros have 3 of 7 seats their involvement (which you all know is not OHV positive) will also affect the OHV Gas Tax dollars and the RTP (Federal Hwy's Recreational Trails Program). We'd end up like California in 3 years where 9/10 of the OHV dollars go to the enviros.

A. To allow any event or action under a Special Permit or hunting fishing license, while actively hunting or fishing, shall be exempt from the CS requirement.

(this was an agreed on issue but we are hearing from the meetings many simply want the permit to be for EVERYONE. No exceptions. )

B. State Land Dept. MUST allow the Copper Sticker to replace the State Land Permit.
(as it is now is we can "cross" but not park, camp, stop, unload etc under the CS. The 10% of $4,000,000.00 would amount to $400,000.00 to use for law enforcement OR land mitigation or improvements. The State Trust Land permit at it's highest (9/10 OHV holders) brought in $125,000.00. I would think $400,000.00 should allow us some compensations)

C. Require 1% of the 18% to G&F Education OR the 15% G&F Law Enforcement, to be directed to Search & Rescue.

(this has been asked for and approved numerous times in the past by the workgroup but G&F say it cannot be done. SAR say YES it can)

D. Ask the dealers be allowed to sell permits.
(last week was the FIRST time they agreed to this. Don't let them back down)

E. Ask the permits be "Year to date" rather than a calendar year.
(a calendar year simply makes for a backlog at the beginning of the year and does not allow for pro-rated permits purchased later in the year)

Add any/all issues you believe need to be in the bill to "cover and safeguard against loop holes for OHV".

Antman
11-21-2006, 08:47 AM
My reply sent to Mr. Sacco this am.

xFallen
11-21-2006, 09:13 AM
As an aside, has anyone else noticed that their web-based survey form hosted by zoomerang.com doesn't work properly? It was probably developed by a moron and clearly was not tested. It loses answers. If they are basing any information at all from it that information will be so far from accurate to be actually harmful to the results.

I have tried the form in several different browsers to minimize implementation details. Firefox is the worst culprit, but it also fails on the versions of IE and Nutscrape I tried. I didn't bother looking at the source to debug it. I simply won't submit anything that way since I am concerned that it will be incorrect.

Sandy, is that really Joe Sacco's email address? It is plausible, just kind of goofy is all. I could not find it on the G&F website.


Barry

Allen
11-21-2006, 05:45 PM
As an aside, has anyone else noticed that their web-based survey form hosted by zoomerang.com doesn't work properly? It was probably developed by a moron and clearly was not tested. It loses answers. If they are basing any information at all from it that information will be so far from accurate to be actually harmful to the results.

I have tried the form in several different browsers to minimize implementation details. Firefox is the worst culprit, but it also fails on the versions of IE and Nutscrape I tried. I didn't bother looking at the source to debug it. I simply won't submit anything that way since I am concerned that it will be incorrect.

Sandy, is that really Joe Sacco's email address? It is plausible, just kind of goofy is all. I could not find it on the G&F website.


Barry


It only allows you to pick 1 @ each raiting...

example:

1 #1
1 #2
1 #3
....ect


you cant have 2 items with a 5 importance

RokNRich
11-21-2006, 07:36 PM
E Mail sent to: jsacco@azgfd.gov

I've done the survey twice allready. Also printing a letter to send snail mail.

When will this be decided ?

xFallen
11-21-2006, 07:59 PM
It only allows you to pick 1 @ each raiting...

example:

1 #1
1 #2
1 #3
....ect


you cant have 2 items with a 5 importance


I didn't stop to assess the situation for very long as I had other goals at the time. Recalling back to my responses I can see that as a plausible explanation for the issue.

After reading the entire survey I still think it is poorly constructed.


Barry

RufftyTuffty
11-21-2006, 08:50 PM
DONE....email address is wrong...delete the WWW.

xFallen
11-21-2006, 09:02 PM
DONE....email address is wrong...delete the WWW.

Thanks Mike. My comments sent also.

Antman
11-22-2006, 08:05 AM
Is this all the people in this club that will respond to this thread??

If so, I am ashamed to even belong to this group!!:mad:

GET OFF YOUR ARSES PEOPLE!!!!

k7mto
11-22-2006, 08:17 AM
I sent one yesterday, but didn't feel it was necessary to resond to the thread; unless we're trying to get a count of how many have been sent.

xFallen
11-22-2006, 08:39 AM
Is this all the people in this club that will respond to this thread??

If so, I am ashamed to even belong to this group!!:mad:

GET OFF YOUR ARSES PEOPLE!!!!

I think a lot of people have sent in responses that haven't posted up Bill. I know of at least a handful. I actually sent in my response well before I posted that I had, and I only did that in hopes of helping to motivate people to do the same.

But give 'em heck anyway!


Barry

Antman
11-22-2006, 08:40 AM
I sent one yesterday, but didn't feel it was necessary to resond to the thread; unless we're trying to get a count of how many have been sent.


Thanks Matt, and yes it would be nice to see who has responded. I can't always get to the Land Use meetings because I live so far from Phoenix, but I try to respond to all needs with an email and letter.

Which reminds me, Saturday as we were loading up from TM a lady approached me who had been watching us from a 4 wheeler on the trail and asked where the shot up cars came from. I told her about the clean up you folks did out there, and she wanted to know how to get involved. I told her to find a club to join or if her and her husband had enough friends to start their own group and try to get involved. Most of the people I talked to out there know there is a problem and would like to help if they knew how. Maybe if there was more tv and newspaper coverage of these cleanups, more people would show up.

RufftyTuffty
11-22-2006, 10:08 AM
Should put this as the opening to the forum...some how.

Or atleast BIG *** sticky in all the sections.

Post up or be banned :D

mingoglia
11-22-2006, 10:18 AM
As an aside, has anyone else noticed that their web-based survey form hosted by zoomerang.com doesn't work properly? It was probably developed by a moron and clearly was not tested. It loses answers. If they are basing any information at all from it that information will be so far from accurate to be actually harmful to the results.

I have tried the form in several different browsers to minimize implementation details. Firefox is the worst culprit, but it also fails on the versions of IE and Nutscrape I tried. I didn't bother looking at the source to debug it. I simply won't submit anything that way since I am concerned that it will be incorrect.

Sandy, is that really Joe Sacco's email address? It is plausible, just kind of goofy is all. I could not find it on the G&F website.


Barry

Are you sure the profanity filter isn't just blocking some of your answers? Just a thought. :cool:

Sandee McCullen
11-22-2006, 10:22 AM
Is this all the people in this club that will respond to this thread??

If so, I am ashamed to even belong to this group!!:mad:

GET OFF YOUR ARSES PEOPLE!!!!

THANKS Bill................ you are absolutely correct. If we don't ALL............... THOUSANDS, send in comments you can be guaranteed G&F will "Count" the responses from the enviros above OHV.

1) Please DO NOT simply answer their stupid survey!!! It makes no sense and does not address the issues within the proposal itself. The "Concept" is great but we need the LOOPHOLES LOCKED UP or OHV loses big time. The comments above must be addressed by all. If there are others you can think of .......... send them; if there are some listed you have not sent in..... do so.

2) Barry, Thanks for the info re: Joe Saccos address:
s/b: jsacco@azgfd.gov SEND YOUR COMMENTS DIRECTLY TO HIM. I've told them a dozen times the WEB site is not easy to move around or find stuff in and was concerned many of the responses were not being received. Wouldn't that be nice for them. As of late last week they claim they have received a total of 125 ish responses!!!! That is NOT ENOUGH. I'm sure it also includes many enviro responses. I think that was also including the "survey". The survey will not help OHV either way. SEND IN YOUR RESPONSES THAT RELATE TO THE PROPOSAL ITSELF.

3) Matt, If sending directly to Joe everyone can cc me at: sandee@mccullens.com or someone else to ensure OHV comments are in and accounted for. Just stating "sent" won't help us on counts or issues.

4) Rok N Rich, The entire workgroup meets again on Dec 1. G&F are proposing the bill will be submitted by Dec 8. When asked if they will submit whether OHV agrees or supports it they say "YES". IF this happens OHV will LOSE. I'm sure we can kill the bill again, as last year, but we'll simply be facing "fees" from somewhere else and we won't receive any of those dollars. We will be required to pay leaving G&F and the enviros with all the money to do with as they please and you can be guaranteed it will be used to CLOSE TRAILS and WRITE TICKETS!!!!!

You all have stepped up to the front lines in the past...... don't let down now. We NEED your responses NOW. We've never been on the wire like we are now. Please do your share!

xFallen
11-22-2006, 10:47 AM
Are you sure the profanity filter isn't just blocking some of your answers? Just a thought. :cool:

What the #$%^@! are you talking about, you ^&*&%$##@? Me use profanity? Are you a ^%%$#@$%?

Sheesh.

macinyart
11-22-2006, 01:58 PM
Email sent to Joe Sacco

azcharlie
11-22-2006, 08:12 PM
I sent one yesterday, but didn't feel it was necessary to resond to the thread; unless we're trying to get a count of how many have been sent.

X2:)

RokNRich
11-23-2006, 06:53 PM
I sent one yesterday, but didn't feel it was necessary to resond to the thread; unless we're trying to get a count of how many have been sent.


The advantage of posting is that it bumps it back up to the top, just in case people didn't get around to sending it off the first time around, kind of a reminder....;)


You know I'm not aiming this at you, just trying to bump it up there...:cool:

o2bgpn
11-25-2006, 06:34 PM
Just sent an e-mail to Mr Sacco. I hope it's not to late. (Sorry, I don't get to this site every day.)

bdozeraz
11-29-2006, 01:20 PM
sent response

bdozeraz
11-29-2006, 01:20 PM
sent response