Everyone loves these threads....DEATH WOBBLE

[Crawldit]

Yeah we've all seen these threads before and I've honestly read a good chunk of them myself. Got my new 35's mounted and balanced at Discount two weeks ago. I also put on my 2" Wheel spacers and Big Daddy Tie Rod. I did the "do-it-yourself" toe set and the jeep road like a dream for a week. Then one day I'm cruising down Union Hills and when I hit 40 mph all heck breaks loose.....literally. Got the dreaded death wobble and was lucky to get her pulled over. Took neighborhoods back to my house and when I got under the front end my track bar was just hanging there :eek: Yep, my track bar bolt had snapped clean in half. I drilled out the hole and bushing to fit a larger 7/16 Grade 8 bolt and torqued it down to 120 ft/lbs. Took it for a spin and now death wobble kicks in around 40 mph everytime. I've retorqued everything on the front end, removed the wheels and retorqued the spacers (they were still tight) and have rechecked the toe (still at 5/32 toe-in). I'm completely at a loss. My rig is a DD for over 80 miles and I have been driving surface streets to work for a week now ( to the tune of 2 hours one way :rolleyes: ). What else should I look for that would cause this? Just want to make sure I'm not missing anything before I bite the bullet and take it back to the dealership.......

[papajeep]

I run my 35s at 0 toe in and seems to work good. No wobble at all.

[xFallen]

Yeah we've all seen these threads before and I've honestly read a good chunk of them myself. Got my new 35's mounted and balanced at Discount two weeks ago. I also put on my 2" Wheel spacers and Big Daddy Tie Rod. I did the "do-it-yourself" toe set and the jeep road like a dream for a week. Then one day I'm cruising down Union Hills and when I hit 40 mph all heck breaks loose.....literally. Got the dreaded death wobble and was lucky to get her pulled over. Took neighborhoods back to my house and when I got under the front end my track bar was just hanging there :eek: Yep, my track bar bolt had snapped clean in half. I drilled out the hole and bushing to fit a larger 7/16 Grade 8 bolt and torqued it down to 120 ft/lbs. Took it for a spin and now death wobble kicks in around 40 mph everytime. I've retorqued everything on the front end, removed the wheels and retorqued the spacers (they were still stight) and have rechecked the toe (still at 5/32 toe-in). I'm completely at a loss. My rig is a DD for over 80 miles and I have been driving surface streets to work for a week now ( to the tune of 2 hours one way :rolleyes: ). What else should I look for that would cause this? Just want to make sure I'm not missing anything before I bite the bullet and take it back to the dealership.......

If you go through everything that can cause the problem, you will find it. It just takes patience.

I can tell you when I have DW exactly which of three things it will be each and every time based simply on when it happens. No magic, just dealt with it a lot on my own rig after poiunding the snot out of it on the trails. Your items may or may not be the same as mine, but the point is you can find them with perseverance.

Here's what I have found to be the top issues although this list is not exhaustive. You can get a complete list from any of dozens of places by searching as this topic has been hashed and rehashed hundreds of times as you know. Frustrating, but the problem can be found, you just have to chase it. Seriously, it helps to make a paper check list for yourself and go through everytying twice if need be until you are intimiate with what wears or loosens on your vehicle.

Check the fitment and torque on the tie rod. Carefully inspect the TREs.

Check the fitment and torque on the drag link. Carefully inspect the TREs.

Make sure your steering arm nut is at torque on the steering box.

Check the torque of the track bar on the frame end. Make sure the mount is not worn or damaged.

Check the torque on the (3) unit bearing bolts and make sure the unit bearings themselves are in good shape. Ensure wheel lug nuts are properly torqued also.

Are you noticing any wheel vibrations? If you are running steel wheels you may have bent a rim, or you may have one or more out of balance tires. One trip is all it takes.

By the way, toe by itself is rarely the cause of severe DW. Incorrect toe may highlight an existing problem and in some combinations of setups be the culprit that restores balance. People run anywhere from 1/8" -ve to positive and everything in between with and without DW.


Barry

[4 Wheelers Supply]

Or take it to 4 Wheelers,Desert Fab or Absolute off road. DONT TAKE IT TO THE DEALER!!. Call Mike in our service dept. Tell him you are with the AZVJC and you want him to look at your front end.:)

[Crawldit]

That's a heck of a list Barry, thanks. I've checked a couple of those things already but will go through the list again. The rims are stock Moabs and I haven't been out with the new tires so I shouldn't have knocked anything out of whack. The Big Daddy Tie Rod was used and the TRE's came with it so it is possible that they may be bad. I'll try swapping them out with the one's that are on my stock Tie Rod.

Simon: I just called Mike and the soonest he could get me in was next Wednesday so I guess I still have some time to get under the front end and check everything that Barry had mentioned.

Thanks for the input guys.

[YGOHOME]

dealerships are useless against this problem... thats why there are so many DW posts... dealerships usually can't,don't,won't fix it. they'll just rebalance (maybe) the tires and then tell you that your spacers are the problem and that you'll need to buy one of the terraflex track bars they sell for $200 + $100 labor. Take it to someone you know will actually research and fix it and not just give you excuses like the dealership does. It will cost you a few bucks for the alignment but you'll be happy.

[SavageSun4x4]

Virtually any front suspension component can initiate, magnify, exacerbate and aggravate DW. That said: [and much of this is only a repeat of above] Inspect every bushing and connection of forward suspension components. I would throw a socket wrench on them and see if they will loosen or tighten with mild hand pressure. If so tighten as needed.

Look closely to see if any bushings are torn or deformed. I found two the other day and it solved my DW problem I had [that week]. If you have OEM bushings that are replaceable, 4wheelers has them in stock, ask Simon.

Toe: Everyone has a fav, but 1/16 inch toe in +/- 1/16 is a safe bet.

Caster: You run 35's so some caster adjustment is in order. Shoot for 6 degrees +/- .5 degree. If your not sure how to set caster in your driveway, just ask and I will tell you how and some TIPS on doing it right the first time!

Tire pressure: 35 will call for reduced TP. I run 20 in my 37 MTRs. If you not sure how much to run, just ask I will give you a couple of surefire methods to ascertain the correct pressure for YOUR rig and tire size.

TRE: TREs are the weak points of Jeep suspension when suspension modded and or running larger tires. They are cheap and worth the replace if for no other reason than you eliminated another point of failure.

If after following all of the advice on here and you still find DW showing up like your Uncle Harry at Christmas time and staying way to long afterwards...Then you might want to take a hard look at your Track Bar which is more often than not the genesis for DW issues.
Check out the following for a low cost fix for that TB issue!

www.savagesun4x4.com

"TJ, Track Bar, Death Wobble Fix"

Let me know if I can help you and keep us in the loop on your efforts at solving the issues...:)

[Crawldit]

Hey Don, thanks for the added advice. I have never adjusted caster before so any input would be appreciated. For the tire pressure I generally use the chalk test but honestly haven't checked these yet. I just went on good faith that the guys at Discount knew what they were doing( I know, my bad). Do you have any methods other than the chalk test? As for the TRE's, the ones on the stock Tie Rod are good so I might switch them over. The BD Tie Rod that I bought was used so I can't vouch for them. In the end I'm afraid that I might have to replace the track bar no matter what. It is still stock and with the 3" lift I'm guessing that my wheels aren't centered. It didn't cause a problem with the 31's but it may be an issue with the 35's.

[SavageSun4x4]

Hey Don, thanks for the added advice. I have never adjusted caster before so any input would be appreciated. For the tire pressure I generally use the chalk test but honestly haven't checked these yet. I just went on good faith that the guys at Discount knew what they were doing( I know, my bad). Do you have any methods other than the chalk test? As for the TRE's, the ones on the stock Tie Rod are good so I might switch them over. The BD Tie Rod that I bought was used so I can't vouch for them. In the end I'm afraid that I might have to replace the track bar no matter what. It is still stock and with the 3" lift I'm guessing that my wheels aren't centered. It didn't cause a problem with the 31's but it may be an issue with the 35's.
You are welcome:)

Caster:
1) Stop off at Sears/ACE/Home Depot and pick up a magnetic angle finder.

2) On a FLAT surface such as a garage floor.

3) Place angle finder under the knuckle using the magnetic strip to attach. INSURE that the angle finder is on a line parallel with the frame of the Jeep.

4) Read the angle...Make sure you are looking dead on and not at an angle.

5) Do the other wheel and compare, they should be within 1/2 degree of each other.

6) Adjust your caster angle but adjusting either the upper or lower control arms. Use a "strongarm" to bounce Jeep to get it to settle and get accurate readings.

7) Test drive and make corrections as needed.

Tire pressure: Chalk, water or just road dust from a dusty parking lot will give a pattern on the tire. Keep adding air 2 lbs at a time until the "dust" does not leave a pattern mark on the edges. At that point let out out 2-4 lbs and watch your tread wear after that.

Tire centering:
1) Remove the easiest end of the TB or both ends if you like.

2) Use a tape measure to a common point on the tire and Jeep that I can duplicate on the opposite side. I measure from the common point on tire to the spring tower, outer rolled lip. This will get you to with in about a 1/4 inch.

3) Reinstall TB, check measurements again.

4) Set/check toe

5) Set steering wheel using drag link.

If that doesn't provide a cure to TB issues then do the JKS custom track bar as outlined on my site...its cheaper than a HD TB anyhow and you get your frame boxed...

Enjoy and keep me in the loop, do not hesitate to ask me any question:) I will do my best to give you an answer or pass it to someone who can.

[azcharlie]

Check to see if your lower bushing on the trrack bar is worn. I just replaced mine and it fixed my DW. (THANKS SIMON)

[xFallen]

Check to see if your lower bushing on the trrack bar is worn. I just replaced mine and it fixed my DW. (THANKS SIMON)

Yeah, meant to mention that too. These go away quickly under duress of continual extreme flexing.

Also there was some mention of drilling out the trackbar bushing. If you reamed out the rubber that may not be so good. If you took away metal from a sleeve it might be okay. Either way make sure it is in good shape. If it is loose or flexes too much DW is almost guaranteed.


Barry

[thedon]

Yeah we've all seen these threads before and I've honestly read a good chunk of them myself. Got my new 35's mounted and balanced at Discount two weeks ago. I also put on my 2" Wheel spacers and Big Daddy Tie Rod. I did the "do-it-yourself" toe set and the jeep road like a dream for a week. Then one day I'm cruising down Union Hills and when I hit 40 mph all heck breaks loose.....literally. Got the dreaded death wobble and was lucky to get her pulled over. Took neighborhoods back to my house and when I got under the front end my track bar was just hanging there :eek: Yep, my track bar bolt had snapped clean in half. I drilled out the hole and bushing to fit a larger 7/16 Grade 8 bolt and torqued it down to 120 ft/lbs. Took it for a spin and now death wobble kicks in around 40 mph everytime. I've retorqued everything on the front end, removed the wheels and retorqued the spacers (they were still tight) and have rechecked the toe (still at 5/32 toe-in). I'm completely at a loss. My rig is a DD for over 80 miles and I have been driving surface streets to work for a week now ( to the tune of 2 hours one way :rolleyes: ). What else should I look for that would cause this? Just want to make sure I'm not missing anything before I bite the bullet and take it back to the dealership.......

Sounds like you need a track bar. The stock track bar is weak. Jeep has had a bad problom with there track bar.I had to replace the one on my 06 unlimited with only 300 miles on it and only 25 miles on the 3" lift. YOu said that you drilled out the bushing and hole. That can be a problom when replacing the track bar.All the aftermarket track bar use the stock size bolts on the bushing.You may need to do some thing there. I bet 4 wheels could help you with that.
Good luck.

[DsrtJeeper]

Also; are you running factory arms? If so; this can definitely cause DW. They flex like mad when you hit a bump or oscillate at speeds. The stock arm bushings don't help the situation. The stock control arms are not meant to be run at extreme angles.

[Crawldit]

Thanks all

Barry: When I drilled out the bushing I drilled out the metal sleeve. When I installed the bolt everything was tight enough that I had to tap it in with a rubber mallet. Probably wasn't a good idea but it was something that I had read in a couple of different threads over on JU and JF (yeah I know, my bad).

DsrtJeeper: Yes they are stock arms. I don't think that the angle is too bad with only a 3" lift but I don't know. They are dinged up pretty good from running trails like Martinez Canyon on only 31's but they appear to be straight and have no cracks either in the arms or the mounts (that I can see at least).
Looks like I'm going to need to replace the arms anyway if I need to adjust the caster.

So for right now the jeep is in the garage and I'm driving my wifes Titan. I'll have plenty of time to get under the front end this weekend and retorque everything that was mentioned by Barry and others. I'm also going to swap out the tires F/R and see if that helps as well as swapping out the TRE's. Looks like my short list of upgrades includes adjustable Tracbars F/R as well as a full set of Adjustable control arms F/R. Funny thing is that my wife was talking to a Jeeper at Discount Tire (while waiting to get a flat plugged) and she asked his opinion about my "Death Wobble" problem. He told her that it sounded like bad control arms or a tracbar issue. So now she at least has it in her head so it won't come as a suprise when I bring it up to her. I'll let you know what I come up with after I've done some wrenching this weekend. Thanks again.

[xFallen]

Thanks all

Barry: When I drilled out the bushing I drilled out the metal sleeve. When I installed the bolt everything was tight enough that I had to tap it in with a rubber mallet. Probably wasn't a good idea but it was something that I had read in a couple of different threads over on JU and JF (yeah I know, my bad).

DsrtJeeper: Yes they are stock arms. I don't think that the angle is too bad with only a 3" lift but I don't know. They are dinged up pretty good from running trails like Martinez Canyon on only 31's but they appear to be straight and have no cracks either in the arms or the mounts (that I can see at least).
Looks like I'm going to need to replace the arms anyway if I need to adjust the caster.

So for right now the jeep is in the garage and I'm driving my wifes Titan. I'll have plenty of time to get under the front end this weekend and retorque everything that was mentioned by Barry and others. I'm also going to swap out the tires F/R and see if that helps as well as swapping out the TRE's. Looks like my short list of upgrades includes adjustable Tracbars F/R as well as a full set of Adjustable control arms F/R. Funny thing is that my wife was talking to a Jeeper at Discount Tire (while waiting to get a flat plugged) and she asked his opinion about my "Death Wobble" problem. He told her that it sounded like bad control arms or a tracbar issue. So now she at least has it in her head so it won't come as a suprise when I bring it up to her. I'll let you know what I come up with after I've done some wrenching this weekend. Thanks again.

Did you set the caster since putting those springs in? You have to consider caster angle as well as pinion angle. Pinion angle has to win or you'll destroy front DS rapidly. If you can get between 5.5 and 6.5 degrees you'll get a great ride but measure the pinion angle for sure. I'd have to check but 3.5 seems like the max. Ask Joe Daro. He'll tell you the amount you can run.

I just kept setting mine until it rode well but didn't stress out the front DS u-joint. It is pretty much maxed out and is mostly stable even up to exceeding the speed rating of the tires (oops) except for when the TB bushing destroys itself, or the RK steering bracket performs it's monthly crack and fracture routine.


Barry

[Jdemonto@Airpark Jeep Sales]

Or take it to 4 Wheelers,Desert Fab or Absolute off road. DONT TAKE IT TO THE DEALER!!. Call Mike in our service dept. Tell him you are with the AZVJC and you want him to look at your front end.:)

Why not?????? Give Eric a call..he'll get it fixed..cheap!!!! X2 on trac bar, upgrade to a JKS..I run 37's and the only problem I ever had was that it got loose on me!!! Tightened it up and nooooo problem.



Jason

[ob1jeeper]

Thanks all

Barry: When I drilled out the bushing I drilled out the metal sleeve. When I installed the bolt everything was tight enough that I had to tap it in with a rubber mallet. Probably wasn't a good idea but it was something that I had read in a couple of different threads over on JU and JF (yeah I know, my bad).

The compressive forces of having that original sleeve in there raise the effective durometer of the OEM bushing SEVERAL points.

As long as you have this damaged/modified bushing in place, you will have DW. You need to get a bushing in that location which is significantly stiffer from a durometer perspective than what you have created by removing the inner sleeve.

If you want to try to keep your OEM track bar, try locating poly bushings or machine a bushing out of aluminum bar-stock, and add some small grooves to allow you to keep it lubricated.

Understand that neither option are likely to be a long term permantent fix either, as the OEM track bar is not sized to handle the compressive / tensile force dymanics caused by the rotating mass of the system you've created with the addition of 35's & spacers.

Good Luck ;)

[DsrtJeeper]

Thanks all



DsrtJeeper: Yes they are stock arms. I don't think that the angle is too bad with only a 3" lift but I don't know. They are dinged up pretty good from running trails like Martinez Canyon on only 31's but they appear to be straight and have no cracks either in the arms or the mounts (that I can see at least).
Looks like I'm going to need to replace the arms anyway if I need to adjust the caster.



Ask TripleXJ what aftermarket arms did for his death wobble. The stock arms flex sideways like mad. I'm betting on the trackbar, but stock arms also cause DW.

[xFallen]

Thanks all

Barry: When I drilled out the bushing I drilled out the metal sleeve. When I installed the bolt everything was tight enough that I had to tap it in with a rubber mallet. Probably wasn't a good idea but it was something that I had read in a couple of different threads over on JU and JF (yeah I know, my bad).


You need to get a decent bushing in there. Drilling the stock one out was not a good idea. Tapping it with a hammer will do nothing compared to the forces imposed by the vehicle in operation and won't tell you a thing.

The stock control arms are fine for now if they are straight, torqued to spec, the bushings are not worn and you have appropriate caster.


Barry

[Crawldit]

Alright, so just in case anyone would like an update.....I give up! Spent all day Saturday under the heep. I printed out this thread as a check list and went over everything that I could with my "shadetree mechanic skills". Every nut/bolt that I put the torque wrench on was tight and I swapped out the tires front/rear just for kicks. The only thing I could not do was swap out my stock TRE's cause apparently I hit them a little TOO hard when getting them out and now the threads are shot. All I know is that it shakes even worse now.....I'm at a complete loss. I just hope that I can keep it on the street long enough to get it to Mike on Wednesday. I can't wait to see how many people I piss off driving 30mph on surface streets from North Glendale to their shop by the airport. There has got to be something bent/tweaked or a bad bushing somewhere that I'm not just not seeing. DEATH WOBBLE SUCKS!

[xFallen]

Alright, so just in case anyone would like an update.....I give up! Spent all day Saturday under the heep. I printed out this thread as a check list and went over everything that I could with my "shadetree mechanic skills". Every nut/bolt that I put the torque wrench on was tight and I swapped out the tires front/rear just for kicks. The only thing I could not do was swap out my stock TRE's cause apparently I hit them a little TOO hard when getting them out and now the threads are shot. All I know is that it shakes even worse now.....I'm at a complete loss. I just hope that I can keep it on the street long enough to get it to Mike on Wednesday. I can't wait to see how many people I piss off driving 30mph on surface streets from North Glendale to their shop by the airport. There has got to be something bent/tweaked or a bad bushing somewhere that I'm not just not seeing. DEATH WOBBLE SUCKS!

Drive 50. Usually goes away by then. Yes, it is a drag. Has to be that bushing you hogged out, or something bent somewhere. Mike will find it I am sure.


Barry

[Crawldit]

Drive 50. Usually goes away by then. Yes, it is a drag. Has to be that bushing you hogged out, or something bent somewhere. Mike will find it I am sure.


Barry
I wish I could hit 50 but I can't get through 40 without Death wobble kicking in. I've tried to ease my way through and I've tried to power my way through 40 but everytime I get close all heck breaks loose. I've got to be honest, driving the Jeep scares the crap outta me right now and I'm not really looking forward to Wednesday morning :(

[xFallen]

I wish I could hit 50 but I can't get through 40 without Death wobble kicking in. I've tried to ease my way through and I've tried to power my way through 40 but everytime I get close all heck breaks loose. I've got to be honest, driving the Jeep scares the crap outta me right now and I'm not really looking forward to Wednesday morning :(

I was actually somewhat serious. Drive through it (that is, hit the throttle and accelerate past 50 mph) and it goes away. Seems counter intuitive but that's exactly what happens. You can sometimes make it go away with a flick of the steering wheel or a longer turn one direction or the other, and sometimes some throttle.

I have lived with an inferior track bar bushing design and drive my TJ to and from the trails. DW is very familiar.

You can take side streets, and avoid bumps, but you'll get it a bunch of times I imagine. Or, take the freeway and avoid slowing below about 50 mph. If you can do that I have money that says you won't induce DW until you hit the surface streets again.

I am not recommending you do anything at all except get it fixed, by the way, just telling you how it behaves on my vehicle. I'd show you in my Jeep but I have managed to mostly eliminate it. Guess I could loosen the lower track bar bolt...or loosen one of the steering bolts...That'd do it huh...


Barry

[Crawldit]

Alright, just picked up the Jeep from 4 Wheelers. The Death Wobble is cured! There is still a shimmy at about 40 but it's not too noticeable and feels like a balance issue. I'm gonna see if I can pick up some airsofts and put them in the tires over the long weekend. Now for the repairs......I am no longer allowing myself to set toe :o Apparently it was toed in a full inch :eek: Mike also replaced my stock steering stabilizer with a Rancho unit. So my two weeks of terror were easily solved for under $100. Guess I need to go back to "shade tree mechanic" school and take some refresher courses :rolleyes: I'll definitely be giving 4 wheelers my business from now on :D

[azcharlie]

Glad to hear your DW is gone. I know first hand.....Death Wobble sucks.