blooddrive
01-04-2004, 09:07 AM
37502-37526
37502 From: Mike & Karen Acuna <macunasprint@e...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 4:38pm
Subject: Re: ........GUNS----->Please read this
I thought deadly force is justified to prevent ANY felony third party or otherwise.
Mike 98ZJ
Fred wrote:
Mmmmm, unless they've changed a law or two in the last couple of years, when I checked last, it *IS* illegal to threaten to use of firearm, even if it's ok to use the firmarm (that is shoot someone) for that event. . It's not, of course, illegal to use the firearm to protect a third party from certain activities, but it is (or was) illegal to threaten to do so. . It's also illegal to shoot someone with the intent to wound, even if it was legal to use deadly force (ie shooting someone) to prevent the event. Lastly, this state also had a "fleeing felon" law that makes it illegal for a civilian (ie non police) to shot a person fleeing the scene regardless of what that person may have done. Anyways, this is how it was couple or so years ago.
:)
Fred
JW wrote:
No probably about it... if these guys had continued to threaten Randy's wife
and children with a deadly weapon (the vehicle), Randy would have been
within his legal rights to use deadly force to stop the driver.
Hopefully, Tom will speak out on this thread, but, having just taken a CCW
class this topic is fresh in my mind.
It is legal to display and threaten to use (in Arizona anyway) a weapon to
protect a third party (in this case, Randy's family) from deadly force. It
would have been legal for me or anyone else to protect Randy's family as
well.
Scott has touched on a number of great points (kudos Scott).
There was a time when I would have argued that having a weapon is just plain
not needed since statistically, you will probably never have occasion to use
it to protect yourself...
When the Indian gas station attendant died by being shot dead two blocks
from my house in Mesa at the gas station that I
go to twice a week... and I
was going there to get gas just after he was shot and I saw the police just
pulling up... my mind was changed forever.
If I had been at the gas station 5 minutes earlier, I would have been there
at the time of the shooting. Had I been there, and had to stand idly by and
watch a man get shot to death; it would have caused me no end of grief.
I signed up for a concealed carry class and purchased my .45 sig a few days
later.
I hope that I never need to use my weapon... but if I ever encounter a
situation where I need it, I will not hesitate a nanosecond to use it.
Kind Regards,
Joe West
PS. I joined the NRA to support their efforts to help ensure our second
amendment rights are never violated by our own government... I guess this
makes me a red-neck engineering geek.
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Kruize [mailto:scottkruize@earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:19 PM
To: Siade, Randy; 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jon
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
Good point. In this scenario you probably were within your
legal rights to
protect your family from harm. Had they proceeded to try to
run over your
kids I doubt there is a jury anywhere (except maybe in
California) that
wouldn't acquit you.
These are the types of scenarios that never show up in the propaganda
statistics put out by the Gun Control people. They like to only show
information regarding actual shootings of children, etc
wihtout including
the number of lives that are saved evey year by guns that
are
never even
fired. But again, this is another debate.
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: Siade, Randy [mailto:randy.siade@unisys.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:08 PM
To: 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jon
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
Here is a true story at the coves. I took my wife and kids to
the first
cover for some recreation swimming and fishing. My kids are
in the water
playing with my wife close by when these drunk guys in a jeep
come down the
big hill and want to travel through the water where my kids
are playing.
They tell my wife to move the kids out of the way or they
will run them
over. My wife stepped in between them and the kids. They
start yelling and
moving forward. In the mea
n time I had pulled my 9mm out
walked up to them
and they yelled at me to get my wife and kids out of the way
or they where
going to run them over. I calmly pulled my 9mm out and told
them the "I have
a 9mm says you don't". They decided to go around another way.
-----Original Message-----
From: Nick [mailto:nnote@azboss.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:18 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jon
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
More than once while wheeling I've come across a group of ATF
people, you
know, smoking drinking and shooting guns. It makes me
nervous as hell and I
do plan on getting my own gun to carry someday.
There was an article in the paper the other day about this.
The author was
writing that he always carried h
is gun at night but on this
particular night
he wasn't. He got cut off by a driver and when he gave the
guy the finger,
the other driver flashed a gun at him. He said that in
reallity he was glad
he had forgotten his gun that day because the situation could
have very
easily escalated into someone getting shot. It's just
another interesting
view of what may happen. If those ATF people had seen a gun
on me it could
have frightened them into pointing theirs at me.
On the other hand, when I went hiking into four peaks a
couple of weekends
ago, I had a shotgun with me, and it made me feel more
secure. Not for
people but because it is a prime bear habitat.
Nick
----- Original Message -----
From: "sinclare_jon"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:03 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
what do you all think?
I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel
alone and
I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and take
pictures.
I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but the
last guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. His
point is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.
So the question is: What do you carry and where?
thanks
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37503 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@h...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 4:48pm
Subject: RE: Guns and self defense
Tom,
Make sure you sign up for our group... you'll be a great addition.
Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fred [mailto:fredtj@h...]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 5:40 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; Tom LaFrance
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Guns and self defense
>
>
> Thanks for clearing it up Tom. I dropped it, as no one was
> going to believe
> it. Like I mentioned, unless laws have changed in the last 4
> or 5 years,
> that's what was drilled into us when I took a the class, and
> is in the "blue
> book", as I remember it . I have the book still somewhere).. You can't
> threaten, you just do, if the case justifies it, and, as I
> mentioned, if it
> ever happens, remember that one of the two (the shooter or
> the shootee) has
> committed a very serious crime.
> The tresspassing part has another thing that I found
> interesting, regarding
> the state laws. You *can't* legally shoot someone for
> criminal tresspass,
> however you *can* threaten to. Strange state ;)
> I should probably stay updated on state laws, as maybe
> somethings changed.
> When I took the class, rape has another time where deadly
> force could be
> used.
> :)
> Fred
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom LaFrance" <tlafrance@j...>
> To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 4:54 PM
> Subject: [az_vjc] Guns and self defense
>
>
> > Only when someone is about to kill you (or a 3rd party) can you use
> > deadly force to prevent their actions.
> >
> > You may ONLY threaten the use of deadly force to prevent criminal
> > trespass.
> >
> > Anything else can be considered brandishing under the
> disorderly conduct
> > code and is a class 6 felony with an average sentence of 3 years in
> > prison.
> >
> > JW: A SIG 220 only carries 8 + 1, thats 1 more than my
> revo :-) I'll
> > take you up on some friendly competition anytime to change your mind
> > regarding reloading with speed loaders as well. BTW you
> can chose which
> > hand I use to make it fair :-p
> >
> > Tom LaFrance
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
37504 From: Scott Kruize <scottkruize@e...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 4:56pm
Subject: RE: Guns and self defense
Joe,
I've already joined. Now I need to setup a new folder and configure a filter
in outlook :)
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@h...]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 5:48 PM
To: 'Fred'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; 'Tom LaFrance'
Cc: Azvgc (E-mail)
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Guns and self defense
Tom,
Make sure you sign up for our group... you'll be a great addition.
Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fred [mailto:fredtj@h...]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 5:40 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; Tom LaFrance
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Guns and self defense
>
>
> Thanks for clearing it up Tom. I dropped it, as no one was
> going to believe
> it. Like I mentioned, unless laws have changed in the last 4
> or 5 years,
> that's what was drilled into us when I took a the class, and
> is in the "blue
> book", as I remember it . I have the book still somewhere).. You can't
> threaten, you just do, if the case justifies it, and, as I
> mentioned, if it
> ever happens, remember that one of the two (the shooter or
> the shootee) has
> committed a very serious crime.
> The tresspassing part has another thing that I found
> interesting, regarding
> the state laws. You *can't* legally shoot someone for
> criminal tresspass,
> however you *can* threaten to. Strange state ;)
> I should probably stay updated on state laws, as maybe
> somethings changed.
> When I took the class, rape has another time where deadly
> force could be
> used.
> :)
> Fred
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom LaFrance" <tlafrance@j...>
> To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 4:54 PM
> Subject: [az_vjc] Guns and self defense
>
>
> > Only when someone is about to kill you (or a 3rd party) can you use
> > deadly force to prevent their actions.
> >
> > You may ONLY threaten the use of deadly force to prevent criminal
> > trespass.
> >
> > Anything else can be considered brandishing under the
> disorderly conduct
> > code and is a class 6 felony with an average sentence of 3 years in
> > prison.
> >
> > JW: A SIG 220 only carries 8 + 1, thats 1 more than my
> revo :-) I'll
> > take you up on some friendly competition anytime to change your mind
> > regarding reloading with speed loaders as well. BTW you
> can chose which
> > hand I use to make it fair :-p
> >
> > Tom LaFrance
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
37505 From: linda luik <minihummer@w...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 4:43pm
Subject: Update - SUV Pull at the Coves
All,
I was contacted by Jason from the Mesa Ranger District asking about a
date to pull the SUV out of the 2nd Cove. Apparently the off-road
recovery tow truck that was seen heading in there was out to get another
stuck vehicle. The Ranger's Office has not been contacted by any OR
Recovery Service about the burned SUV. The USFS has already pulled the
VIN tags and plates off the SUV and the Sheriff's Dept has been notified
that we are pulling it out. I gave him the Dec 29 date. Even so, I want
to make sure it is still there. I didn't have time to make it out there
last weekend so will be going out there on Saturday (Dec 22) morning --
just a quick trip.
Linda
linda luik wrote:
>
> So far it looks like Saturday. Sorry. Right now we have 2 FS Jeep
> trucks, 2 Dodge trucks (one gas, one diesel), a FS Blazer, and a few
> winches mounted on Jeeps.
>
> Linda
>
> Shawn Passmore wrote:
> >
> > Hey guy/gals,
> > I would love to help, but unfortunately I work on Saturdays, any chance of
> > making it Sunday??? I only ask because a friend of mine said that he would
> > be willing to help also....Ok, what relevance does this have? Well he drives
> > a Unimog!!! That thing could pull a house over those tiny little hills!!
> > Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
> > Please feel free to flame away!!! LOL
> > Shawn
> > jeepcj5nut
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "linda luik" <minihummer@w...>
> > To: "Len Sullivan" <kermit@e...>; "Halverson" <byrnec@q...>;
> > "Nixon, Scott" <scnix1@h...>; "DougB" <azjeep@h...>; "Gary Holmes"
> > <Niitoyis@w...>; "Robert Holmes" <flamable_liquid@h...>;
> > "Bab****, Charles H" <charles.h.bab****@i...>; "az_vjc"
> > <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>; "graham, steve" <stevegraham@w...>
> > Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 7:04 PM
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Holiday Party - Coves Cleanup - SUV Pull
> >
> > > Well, so far it looks like we have a pretty good turnout. I will post
> > > this as trail ride for Saturday, Dec 29, if that's okay with everyone. I
> > > will contact the FS with the date. Meet at Butcher Jones at 9:00-9:30am
> > > and go from there. I hope it doesn't rain!
> > >
> > > Sign ups so far are:
> > >
> > > LenS
> > > JohnH
> > > DougB
> > > GaryH
> > > RobertH
> > > CharlesB
> > > SteveG
> > > ScottN?
> > >
> > > LindaL
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
37506 From: Ralph Williams <ralphbw@q...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 6:12pm
Subject: Re: Tailgate & shop manual for cherokee
'95's did not have the opening rear glass. Otherwise it should
fit. '97-'98 should also work.
Shop manual should be available from a dealer or from the 800
number in the back of the owners manual.
Hope this helps,
Ralph
Rollie kent wrote:
>
> I need a tailgate for my 96 grand cherokee. I was told that 95 & 96 are
> interchangeable, anyone know if this is correct?
> Anyone know where I can get a shop manual for a 96 grand cherokee? how about
> a tailgate?
>
> __________________________________________________ _______________
> Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
37507 From: Ralph Williams <ralphbw@q...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 6:16pm
Subject: Re: ........GUNS----->Please read this
We usually carry a little Baretta pistol, lays on the console.
Just bought a couple of mini-14's, suppose they will lay in the
back.
Have a ZJ so it is soft and cushy, not like the SWB's. :)
Ralph
sinclare_jon wrote:
>
> what do you all think?
> I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel alone and
> I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and take
> pictures.
> I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but the
> last guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. His
> point is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.
>
> So the question is: What do you carry and where?
>
> thanks
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
37508 From: Hackle <hackle@q...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 6:24pm
Subject: Discount Tire
This is getting old but I want to thank Rick Beer for taking such great
care of my YJ and myself today. I called him this morning to check on a set
of 35" MT/R's and he had them in stock. They are now on my Jeep and look
great. Thanks Rick and when ever you are ready for a wrench session on your
Jeep I think you will find plenty of volunteers. Jim F.
I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member. "Groucho
Marx"
Member of the original dirty half dozen.
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/index.htm/
37509 From: Len Sullivan <kermit@e...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 6:50pm
Subject: Re: Update - SUV Pull at the Coves
If we can't get it out in one piece, Mike and I can bring 2 cordless
sawzalls plus another sawzall with an inverter. We can cut it up and put it
in baggies like DougB suggested.
Len
-----Original Message-----
From: linda luik <minihummer@w...>
To: AZVJC <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>; Nixon, Scott <scnix1@h...>; bab****,
charles <charles.h.bab****@i...>
Date: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 5:48 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Update - SUV Pull at the Coves
>All,
>
>I was contacted by Jason from the Mesa Ranger District asking about a
>date to pull the SUV out of the 2nd Cove. Apparently the off-road
>recovery tow truck that was seen heading in there was out to get another
>stuck vehicle. The Ranger's Office has not been contacted by any OR
>Recovery Service about the burned SUV. The USFS has already pulled the
>VIN tags and plates off the SUV and the Sheriff's Dept has been notified
>that we are pulling it out. I gave him the Dec 29 date. Even so, I want
>to make sure it is still there. I didn't have time to make it out there
>last weekend so will be going out there on Saturday (Dec 22) morning --
>just a quick trip.
>
>Linda
>
>linda luik wrote:
>>
>> So far it looks like Saturday. Sorry. Right now we have 2 FS Jeep
>> trucks, 2 Dodge trucks (one gas, one diesel), a FS Blazer, and a few
>> winches mounted on Jeeps.
>>
>> Linda
>>
>> Shawn Passmore wrote:
>> >
>> > Hey guy/gals,
>> > I would love to help, but unfortunately I work on Saturdays, any chance
of
>> > making it Sunday??? I only ask because a friend of mine said that he
would
>> > be willing to help also....Ok, what relevance does this have? Well he
drives
>> > a Unimog!!! That thing could pull a house over those tiny little
hills!!
>> > Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
>> > Please feel free to flame away!!! LOL
>> > Shawn
>> > jeepcj5nut
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "linda luik" <minihummer@w...>
>> > To: "Len Sullivan" <kermit@e...>; "Halverson"
<byrnec@q...>;
>> > "Nixon, Scott" <scnix1@h...>; "DougB" <azjeep@h...>; "Gary
Holmes"
>> > <Niitoyis@w...>; "Robert Holmes"
<flamable_liquid@h...>;
>> > "Bab****, Charles H" <charles.h.bab****@i...>; "az_vjc"
>> > <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>; "graham, steve"
<stevegraham@w...>
>> > Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 7:04 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Holiday Party - Coves Cleanup - SUV Pull
>> >
>> > > Well, so far it looks like we have a pretty good turnout. I will post
>> > > this as trail ride for Saturday, Dec 29, if that's okay with
everyone. I
>> > > will contact the FS with the date. Meet at Butcher Jones at
9:00-9:30am
>> > > and go from there. I hope it doesn't rain!
>> > >
>> > > Sign ups so far are:
>> > >
>> > > LenS
>> > > JohnH
>> > > DougB
>> > > GaryH
>> > > RobertH
>> > > CharlesB
>> > > SteveG
>> > > ScottN?
>> > >
>> > > LindaL
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
37510 From: paparoach85251 <lespaparoach@m...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 6:54pm
Subject: update on the new Detroit Electrac
Late March.
Brent Bussell
Senior Account Administrator
Application Technician
Tractech Inc.
bbussell@t...
800-328-3850
586-759-3850
----- Original Message -----
From: <lespaparoach@m...>
To: <bbussell@t...>; <info@t...>
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 11:19 PM
Subject: Website Feedback Form
> Below is the result of your feedback form. It was submitted by
> (lespaparoach@m...) on Thursday, December 13, 2001 at 23:19:32
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
-
>
> Contact_FirstName: Les
>
> Contact_LastName: Roach
>
> Comments: When do you expect to release the new Detroit Electrac for
common Jeep axles dana 30, 35 and 44?
>
> submit: Submit Request
37511 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 6:56pm
Subject: RE: Axle Alley trip leader needed
That's funny. I'm going and Scott knows it but didn't list me at all!
Joey K
93YJ
PS I'm not drivin'. :)
-----Original Message-----
From: Stu Olson [mailto:solson8@qwest.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 2:47 PM
To: 'Chris Krieg'; 'Bill Mish'
Cc: 'AZ_VJC'
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Axle Alley trip leader needed
Chris....don't feel special....I'm trying to figure out how I got tossed into this group outing too! LOL Geez....ya spend a few wrenching sessions with Scott and look where it lands you! I don't know....I'm still making payments on my Jeep! LOL
Stu
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@mac.com]
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 11:50 PM
To: Bill Mish
Cc: AZ_VJC
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Axle Alley trip leader needed
Yup, definately the driver in my case. I need more stick time before I tackle the really tough trails. The Jeep is probably ready though.
Chris K
http://www.arizonatj.com
On Monday, December 17, 2001, at 11:49 PM, Bill Mish wrote:
What's your vehicle specs?
If a TJ like Scott's can make it, surely your Jeep can.....Well, OK, TJ's are limited by their drivers, I've seen Doug B do things that might make Scott wet his pants......
Hehehe, Scott's sleeping now, that's how I'm getting away with harassing him so much without him responding.
Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Krieg<>color>
To: Bill Mish<>color>
Cc: AZ_VJC<>color>
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 11:21 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Axle Alley trip leader needed
Hey, how did I get in that. Axle Alley is a bit extreme for me still. I'm still learning the ropes.
Chris K
On Monday, December 17, 2001, at 11:16 PM, Bill Mish wrote:
Sounds like an AZX4W run. Sure you guys are up for it?
Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Kruize
To: AZ_VJC
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 10:42 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Axle Alley trip leader needed
Some of us got the bug to run Axle Alley but we need a trip leader. Sometime between Christmas and New Years would be best.
From what I've heard we need at least 33's (35+ preferable) , traction devices front and rear, and a 4:1 low range (or auto tranny). A winch is required and you should also carry spare axleshafts, ujoints, etc and the necessary parts to repair them. Oh yeah, don't forget your cajones.
So far Flexxy, Joe W, Chris K, Stu O, and myself have expressed interest in going if we can find a trip leader and an acceptable date for all. (Stu, I don't think there will be any strippers so quit thinking like that ;) Joe W, leave your thesis on impedance at home, I don't want to have to pry you and Stu apart.
Who wants to be the "Big Dog" and show us the way?
Thanks in advance,
Scott
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37512 From: DougB <azjeep@h...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 7:23pm
Subject: Too lazy to send cards
Happy Holidays everyone!
Doug
Attachment: (image/jpeg) Jeepin Santa.jpg [not stored]
37513 From: Eric Kaufmann <edkmann@h...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 7:41pm
Subject: Re: ........GUNS----->Please read this
Always ALways makes sense to have some sort of firearm with you. You can
meet the nastiest people in the nicest places...and they will usually out
number you if you happen to be alone. Pistols are convenient, but rifles are
much more decisive and easier to use. There are many many options available,
if you do not wish to spend a lot of money, go to J&G Sales in Prescott and
pick yourself up a surplus military rifle. One of my favorite camp guns has
become a Russian Moisan-Nagant bolt action carbine in 7.62x54. You can find
a nice surplus example in very good to new condition for $50.00 or so, ammo
is inexpensive and ballistically similar to a 30-06. Doesn't matter if it
gets dinged up and is well proven. I lay my rifle behind the front seats on
the passenger compartment floor. If I have a pistol I hang it in a pouch on
the back of the front passenger seat.
Also...there have been a number of predator (animal...four legged variety)
the past few years.....out by Bartlett Lake about 2 years ago a 7 year old
girl was dragged off into the bushes by a 160 pound mountain lion. Dad was
un-armed and used yelling and rocks to get it to drop the child. Granted, a
gun would have done no good while the cat actually had the child, but a WW2
rifle makes a great club too, until a coup de grace can be administered.
anyway...just my two cents....
>From: Ralph Williams <ralphbw@q...>
>To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
>Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 19:16:01 -0700
>
>We usually carry a little Baretta pistol, lays on the console.
>Just bought a couple of mini-14's, suppose they will lay in the
>back.
>Have a ZJ so it is soft and cushy, not like the SWB's. :)
>
>Ralph
>
>
>sinclare_jon wrote:
> >
> > what do you all think?
> > I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel alone and
> > I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and take
> > pictures.
> > I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but the
> > last guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. His
> > point is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.
> >
> > So the question is: What do you carry and where?
> >
> > thanks
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
__________________________________________________ _______________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
37514 From: Nick <nnote@a...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 7:56pm
Subject: Re: Update - SUV Pull at the Coves
So where is the suv being taken after it's pulled out??
Nick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Len Sullivan" <kermit@e...>
To: "AZVJC" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Update - SUV Pull at the Coves
> If we can't get it out in one piece, Mike and I can bring 2 cordless
> sawzalls plus another sawzall with an inverter. We can cut it up and put
it
> in baggies like DougB suggested.
>
> Len
37515 From: linda luik <minihummer@w...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 7:44pm
Subject: [LU] lynx hoax seattle times
Here's a good example of a way to fence off public land.
Linda
Coop wrote:
>
> http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134379764_lynx18m.html
>
> Tuesday, December 18, 2001 - 12:00 a.m. Pacific
>
> Lynx count a hair off? Fur flies over fake find
>
> By Lynda V. Mapes lmapes@s...
> Seattle Times staff reporter
>
> U.S. Forest Service officials leapt into damage-control mode yesterday
> after a disclosure
> that federal and state employees on Washington public lands had sent
> bogus lynx-hair
> samples to a lab.
>
> The samples are used by federal scientists surveying the presence of the
> threatened Canada
> lynx, and they play a part in determining whether logging and wintertime
> motorized
> recreation should be restricted to protect the animals.
>
> The revelation that employees had mailed in hairs from captive lynx hit
> like a bombshell.
>
> "This calls into question everything they are putting out about the
> lynx. Who knows what's
> right and what's wrong?" said Adena Cook of the Blue Ribbon Coalition, a
> national
> motorized-recreation advocacy group based in Idaho Falls. "There is big
> dissatisfaction that
> the system is rigged."
>
> The Canada lynx was listed March 24, 2000, under the federal Endangered
> Species Act as
> threatened in 16 northern states, including Utah and Colorado.
>
> Officials from Washington state to Maine are trying to determine the
> range of the animal, and
> efforts are under way to improve lynx survival in 57 national forests.
>
> The employees involved, who have not been identified, said they had
> submitted the hair
> samples not to change the outcome of the survey but to determine the
> accuracy of the lab's
> DNA analysis, said Joel Holtrop, a Forest Service spokesman in
> Washington, D.C.
>
> The Forest Service has known about the hair samples since the fall of
> 2000, when an
> employee told the lynx-survey supervisor he had mailed in the samples.
>
> An outside investigator hired by the agency in February concluded in
> June that three
> employees at the Gifford Pinchot National Forest in Southwest Washington
> were involved.
>
> Investigators also learned that two U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
> employees and two
> Washington State Department of Fish and Wildlife employees were involved
> in two other
> bogus samples sent from the Wenatchee National Forest.
>
> None of the samples were included in regional survey results, or the
> national lynx survey. All
> remaining samples were determined to be legitimate.
>
> The Forest Service stands by the scientific integrity of the overall
> lynx sampling effort, which
> began in northern-tier states in 1998, said Holtrop. The incident, he
> added, was isolated.
>
> "There is no evidence or indication that anything similar to this has
> occurred on other
> species."
>
> The employees involved were "counseled" and have been forbidden from
> working on lynx
> surveys, Holtrop said.
>
> The Forest Service shared its findings with agency managers in August,
> informed
> national-forest supervisors of the survey in November, and briefed
> congressional-committee
> staffers last week.
>
> Some scoffed at the employees' explanation that they were trying to test
> the lab.
>
> "That's like saying, 'We weren't really robbing a bank, we were just
> testing to see if we
> could rob it,' " said Cook of the Blue Ribbon Coalition.
>
> "We recognize the inappropriate behavior of these individuals, and we
> don't want to see it
> happen again," Holtrop said. "This was unnecessary and inappropriate
> activity, and we don't
> support it in any way."
>
> The agency delayed making the matter public because it was a personnel
> issue, said Phil
> Mattson, acting group leader for range, watershed and fisheries for the
> Forest Service's
> Pacific Northwest region.
>
> Even if the employees had skewed the survey, follow-up work on the
> positive "hits" at the
> lab would have detected something amiss, Holtrop said.
>
> So far, the surveys have not confirmed the existence of lynx in the
> Wenatchee or Gifford
> Pinchot national forests, despite the cats' historic presence there.
>
> The Okanogan is Washington's only national forest with a current,
> confirmed lynx
> population. The animals also have been sited in the Loomis Forest in
> north-central
> Washington.
>
> Mark Skatrud, who has done numerous lynx surveys for federal and state
> agencies, said the
> Forest Service is overreacting.
>
> "Near as I can gather, these employees had decided to check the validity
> of the lab," he
> said. "I think these people were doing a service to the region."
>
> Like other defenders of the lynx, Skatrud said he feared the flap would
> distract from
> preservation of the lynx and cast a pall on biological research.
>
> Lynda V. Mapes can be reached at 206-464-2736 or
> lmapes@s....
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++
> NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, any copyrighted
> material herein is distributed without profit or payment to those who
> have
> expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for
> non-profit
> research and educational purposes only. For more information go to:
> http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml
>
> --
> "The American people will never knowingly adopt
> socialism, but under the name of liberalism they
> will adopt every fragment of the socialist program
> until one day America will be a socialist nation
> without ever knowing how it happened".
>
> --Norman Thomas, Socialist Party presidential
> candidate and one of the founders of the ACLU---
>
> _______________________________________________
> Landuse mailing list
> Landuse@l...
> http://lists.off-road.com/mailman/listinfo/landuse
37516 From: gev39 <gev39@y...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 7:59pm
Subject: GOing out Wednesday?
I dont have to work so I'm going wheeling. Table Mesa anyone?
Russell
37517 From: linda luik <minihummer@w...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 7:47pm
Subject: Re: Update - SUV Pull at the Coves
The forest service will have it towed from the Butcher Jones Rec Area.
Us moving it from Cove 2 to Butcher Jones is a money-saver for the
Forest Service and it gives us a chance improve the image of 4-wheeling
with the USFS and the public at the same time.
Linda
Nick wrote:
>
> So where is the suv being taken after it's pulled out??
> Nick
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Len Sullivan" <kermit@e...>
> To: "AZVJC" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 7:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Update - SUV Pull at the Coves
>
> > If we can't get it out in one piece, Mike and I can bring 2 cordless
> > sawzalls plus another sawzall with an inverter. We can cut it up and put
> it
> > in baggies like DougB suggested.
> >
> > Len
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
37518 From: Gary Holmes <niitoyis@w...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 8:04pm
Subject: Re: Fire Extinquisher
Lynch:
You're right, it was ABC and there is some concern about that but then again, if
you let the fire go it becomes a mote point. The Halon extinguishers were about
$180.00 each for 5 lb. If you want, I will ignore a fire on your rig.
Gary Holmes
lynch wrote:
> Gary and Mike:
>
> On both of your extinguishers, were they CO2 or the ABC dry type? I believe
> the ABC type can corrode electronics and such, can anyone verify this?
>
> Regards,
>
> lynch
>
> On Tue, Dec 18, 2001 at 04:49:38PM -0700, Gary Holmes wrote:
> > Mike and Crew:
> >
> > I went to Roadrunner Fire Extinguisher etc. company recently and picked up
> > used (but guaranteed) 5 lb. fire extinguishers for approx. $32.00 each. Put
> > 2 in the Camo Cow. Can't have enough fire extinguishers when you need them
> > (from personal experience.)
> >
> > Gary Holmes
> >
> > Yeah, they were fully charged!
> >
> > jeepin_in_az wrote:
> >
> > > Just got back from Sam's Club (I gotta stay away from there!), and
> > > picked up a 2 pack of 2.5 lbs fire extinquishers for $17. That is
> > > pretty cheap from what I have seen. I am going to wrap mine up and
> > > put it under the tree, "To: Mike, From: Santa!"
> > >
> > > Mike Baney
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
37519 From: dthorton_2000 <dt_horton@h...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 8:24pm
Subject: Re: MIG welder Questions
http://www.welding-direct.com/migwelders3.html
http://fostertool.com/hobart135.html
Miller & Hobart have good 135amp 115v models. New $400-500
3/16 inch in a single pass limit though.
Dan
--- In az_vjc@y..., "David R. W. Withers" <dr_ww@h...> wrote:
> OK, After John @ hunter off-road does a few things for me, I
want to
> start doing my own welding.
> So what do I use to compare welders?
> What are the best brands for the money?
> I need it to plug into a normal isolated household outlet.
> AND I don't have Scott K or Joe W. money, hence why I'm
buying the
> welder.
> Also, my wife isn't a doctor either.
>
> What are some good suggestions.
>
> David R. W. Withers
> Desk: 480.551.4667
> Mobile: 480.215.6992
37520 From: hiett710 <hiett710@y...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 8:25pm
Subject: Re: ........GUNS----->Please read this
This is in response to the Accidental Discharge question earlier. If
you carry your weapon accoarding to state law you shouldn't have any
problems with an "AD" while wheeling. I personally don't believe not
chambering a round is the way to go. If you need it you need it now!
You may not have time to "****/load" it. It's simple physics. If you
pull the trigger it fires if you don't pull the trigger it won't fire
and state law says if it's not in plain view it will be in a holster,
most holsters hide the trigger from the acidental finger or the
unfortunate tire pressure gague in the glovebox. If your firearm has
a safety it's best to have that engaged. In my case I carry a Glock
9mm in a plastic paddle holster that fits right into my drivers seat
adjuster. it gives me quick access, It's completely legal and it
never leaves the holster unless I pull it out (won't fall out on a
bumpy road)I can't vouch that it'll stay holstered if I flip
completely upsidedown but it's a chance I'm willing to take. As for
if it's best to carry or not to carry that is up to the individual. I
would suggest a safety and porficiency class for everyone who's not
completely familiar with a/their weapon. You also have to be carefull
when on National Park land... well I've been long winded enough. Hope
this Helps..
Mike Hiett
02 Yellow (banannannanna) TJ
Coil springs are better.
--- In az_vjc@y..., "sinclare_jon" <sinclare_jon@y...> wrote:
> what do you all think?
> I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel alone
and
> I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and take
> pictures.
> I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but the
> last guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. His
> point is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.
>
> So the question is: What do you carry and where?
>
> thanks
37521 From: hiett710 <hiett710@y...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 8:48pm
Subject: Re: GOing out Wednesday?
How long of a run is it? I have to be in Casa Grande by 2pm but my
morning is free.
Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "gev39" <gev39@y...> wrote:
> I dont have to work so I'm going wheeling. Table Mesa anyone?
> Russell
37522 From: brent_lizakowski <brent_lizakowski@h...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 9:28pm
Subject: Re: MIG welder Questions
You can pick up a 220 Volt MIG Hobart Handler 175 for about $535.
Contact the guys at http://www.tollgas.com When I got mine, the had a
deal with free shipping. I believe now that they're throwing in a
free cart with that as well. I've never welded before I bought this
thing and I've been able to figure it out without any problems (so
far).
Also, check Harbor freight. They've had good deals on both the Hobart
175 and the 135.
From what I hear, MIGs are easy to learn on (I'll attest to that -
but I can't be for certain, because I'd never done any sort of
welding before).
Brent
--- In az_vjc@y..., "dthorton_2000" <dt_horton@h...> wrote:
> http://www.welding-direct.com/migwelders3.html
>
> http://fostertool.com/hobart135.html
>
> Miller & Hobart have good 135amp 115v models. New $400-500
> 3/16 inch in a single pass limit though.
>
> Dan
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "David R. W. Withers" <dr_ww@h...> wrote:
> > OK, After John @ hunter off-road does a few things for me, I
> want to
> > start doing my own welding.
> > So what do I use to compare welders?
> > What are the best brands for the money?
> > I need it to plug into a normal isolated household outlet.
> > AND I don't have Scott K or Joe W. money, hence why I'm
> buying the
> > welder.
> > Also, my wife isn't a doctor either.
> >
> > What are some good suggestions.
> >
> > David R. W. Withers
> > Desk: 480.551.4667
> > Mobile: 480.215.6992
37523 From: trmn8rjn98 <trmn8rjn98@a...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 9:48pm
Subject: Possible selling my 87 XJ with D44 rear
Not shure yet, but having thoughts of selling the XJ to build up my
ZJ I just don't have the income to do both of them at the same time.
Here is the specs 87 XJ 4.0 aw4 242 case. D44 rear with brand new
lockrite & brake drums, front D30 non disconnect axle. Both with
3.55s still. Interior is in good to decent shape would say real good
for the year PW,PDL,Tilt all the usual stuff. Has a procomp 3" lift
(I believe) running 32" bfg muds on gamblers. Works real good did
lower terminater with Joes birthday run. Has some body damage all
small stuff mostly from vandalizim before I got it, but did add some
on terminater. Still looks pretty good though overall. It is metallic
chocolate brown with the tan interior. The price would be $3500 if
interested either shoot me an e-mail or post back here. Known
problems are speedo doesn't work right now (havent looked at it yet)
Ac doesent work now (same) Fan blows but compressor does not engage.
Some of the door locks are sticky & windows need some lubeing they
all work but slowly.
Let me know
John
trmn8rjn98@a...
37524 From: lynch <lynch@v...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 9:54pm
Subject: Re: Fire Extinquisher
I wasn't sure if the 'corrosion' bit was true or not.. and with halon one
runs the risk of asphyxiating people too. Ya can't win! As long as you
aren't spraying me with halon, by all means don't ignore my rig! :P
(i.e. no offense was intended)
At least with the old CO2 units you could spray people -- perhaps not
recommended behavior, but a science teacher way back in high school
blasted me with one for not paying attention in class. :/
-lynch
On Tue, Dec 18, 2001 at 09:04:10PM -0700, Gary Holmes wrote:
> Lynch:
>
> You're right, it was ABC and there is some concern about that but then again, if
> you let the fire go it becomes a mote point. The Halon extinguishers were about
> $180.00 each for 5 lb. If you want, I will ignore a fire on your rig.
>
> Gary Holmes
>
> lynch wrote:
>
> > Gary and Mike:
> >
> > On both of your extinguishers, were they CO2 or the ABC dry type? I believe
> > the ABC type can corrode electronics and such, can anyone verify this?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > lynch
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 18, 2001 at 04:49:38PM -0700, Gary Holmes wrote:
> > > Mike and Crew:
> > >
> > > I went to Roadrunner Fire Extinguisher etc. company recently and picked up
> > > used (but guaranteed) 5 lb. fire extinguishers for approx. $32.00 each. Put
> > > 2 in the Camo Cow. Can't have enough fire extinguishers when you need them
> > > (from personal experience.)
> > >
> > > Gary Holmes
> > >
> > > Yeah, they were fully charged!
> > >
> > > jeepin_in_az wrote:
> > >
> > > > Just got back from Sam's Club (I gotta stay away from there!), and
> > > > picked up a 2 pack of 2.5 lbs fire extinquishers for $17. That is
> > > > pretty cheap from what I have seen. I am going to wrap mine up and
> > > > put it under the tree, "To: Mike, From: Santa!"
> > > >
> > > > Mike Baney
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
>
37525 From: johnrabenius2001 <johnrabenius@h...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 9:51pm
Subject: Dana 30 front axle housing w/ 4.56 gears for sale
I am selling the Dana 30 front axle housing out of my 2000 Jeep
Cherokee.
It has Dana Spicer 4.56 gears and an open carrier.
The axle housing DOES NOT have axle shafts, hubs, rotors, or calipers.
The gears and carrier are only 8 months old, and have close to 6,000
miles on them.
I paid $225.00 for the gears
$ 50.00 for the carrier
$ 75.00 for the install kit (seals and bearings)
$250.00 for the shop to set it all up
. . . That's $600.00! Own it all AND the housing for $300.00!
All you need to do is pull the axle shaft asemblies out of your
existing Dana 30, drop them in this housing, and you have 4.56 gears!
Just remove the three bolts per side! No set up costs!
reply back or call me at:
480-236-4509 cell
480-496-4124 message
John Rabenius
37526 From: Brian Harmon <xjnation@h...>
Date: Wed Dec 19, 2001 6:09am
Subject: Sending out AA syes today.....and extending the deadline till the 30th
Hye All,
I just got the shipment of syes last night and have them all labled and will
de going out today.....and I am also extending the group buy deadline till
dec 30th for those who couldnt make the first deadline....besides I forgot
to order mine!
http://xjnation.homestead.com/index.html...shipping went up 10.00 Ilost my
shirt onthe first order!
Brian Harmon
88 XJ Laredo
http://www.cherokee-nation.com
__________________________________________________ _______________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
37502 From: Mike & Karen Acuna <macunasprint@e...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 4:38pm
Subject: Re: ........GUNS----->Please read this
I thought deadly force is justified to prevent ANY felony third party or otherwise.
Mike 98ZJ
Fred wrote:
Mmmmm, unless they've changed a law or two in the last couple of years, when I checked last, it *IS* illegal to threaten to use of firearm, even if it's ok to use the firmarm (that is shoot someone) for that event. . It's not, of course, illegal to use the firearm to protect a third party from certain activities, but it is (or was) illegal to threaten to do so. . It's also illegal to shoot someone with the intent to wound, even if it was legal to use deadly force (ie shooting someone) to prevent the event. Lastly, this state also had a "fleeing felon" law that makes it illegal for a civilian (ie non police) to shot a person fleeing the scene regardless of what that person may have done. Anyways, this is how it was couple or so years ago.
:)
Fred
JW wrote:
No probably about it... if these guys had continued to threaten Randy's wife
and children with a deadly weapon (the vehicle), Randy would have been
within his legal rights to use deadly force to stop the driver.
Hopefully, Tom will speak out on this thread, but, having just taken a CCW
class this topic is fresh in my mind.
It is legal to display and threaten to use (in Arizona anyway) a weapon to
protect a third party (in this case, Randy's family) from deadly force. It
would have been legal for me or anyone else to protect Randy's family as
well.
Scott has touched on a number of great points (kudos Scott).
There was a time when I would have argued that having a weapon is just plain
not needed since statistically, you will probably never have occasion to use
it to protect yourself...
When the Indian gas station attendant died by being shot dead two blocks
from my house in Mesa at the gas station that I
go to twice a week... and I
was going there to get gas just after he was shot and I saw the police just
pulling up... my mind was changed forever.
If I had been at the gas station 5 minutes earlier, I would have been there
at the time of the shooting. Had I been there, and had to stand idly by and
watch a man get shot to death; it would have caused me no end of grief.
I signed up for a concealed carry class and purchased my .45 sig a few days
later.
I hope that I never need to use my weapon... but if I ever encounter a
situation where I need it, I will not hesitate a nanosecond to use it.
Kind Regards,
Joe West
PS. I joined the NRA to support their efforts to help ensure our second
amendment rights are never violated by our own government... I guess this
makes me a red-neck engineering geek.
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Kruize [mailto:scottkruize@earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:19 PM
To: Siade, Randy; 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jon
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
Good point. In this scenario you probably were within your
legal rights to
protect your family from harm. Had they proceeded to try to
run over your
kids I doubt there is a jury anywhere (except maybe in
California) that
wouldn't acquit you.
These are the types of scenarios that never show up in the propaganda
statistics put out by the Gun Control people. They like to only show
information regarding actual shootings of children, etc
wihtout including
the number of lives that are saved evey year by guns that
are
never even
fired. But again, this is another debate.
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: Siade, Randy [mailto:randy.siade@unisys.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:08 PM
To: 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jon
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
Here is a true story at the coves. I took my wife and kids to
the first
cover for some recreation swimming and fishing. My kids are
in the water
playing with my wife close by when these drunk guys in a jeep
come down the
big hill and want to travel through the water where my kids
are playing.
They tell my wife to move the kids out of the way or they
will run them
over. My wife stepped in between them and the kids. They
start yelling and
moving forward. In the mea
n time I had pulled my 9mm out
walked up to them
and they yelled at me to get my wife and kids out of the way
or they where
going to run them over. I calmly pulled my 9mm out and told
them the "I have
a 9mm says you don't". They decided to go around another way.
-----Original Message-----
From: Nick [mailto:nnote@azboss.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:18 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jon
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
More than once while wheeling I've come across a group of ATF
people, you
know, smoking drinking and shooting guns. It makes me
nervous as hell and I
do plan on getting my own gun to carry someday.
There was an article in the paper the other day about this.
The author was
writing that he always carried h
is gun at night but on this
particular night
he wasn't. He got cut off by a driver and when he gave the
guy the finger,
the other driver flashed a gun at him. He said that in
reallity he was glad
he had forgotten his gun that day because the situation could
have very
easily escalated into someone getting shot. It's just
another interesting
view of what may happen. If those ATF people had seen a gun
on me it could
have frightened them into pointing theirs at me.
On the other hand, when I went hiking into four peaks a
couple of weekends
ago, I had a shotgun with me, and it made me feel more
secure. Not for
people but because it is a prime bear habitat.
Nick
----- Original Message -----
From: "sinclare_jon"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:03 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
what do you all think?
I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel
alone and
I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and take
pictures.
I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but the
last guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. His
point is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.
So the question is: What do you carry and where?
thanks
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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ADVERTISEMENT
37503 From: Joe W <arizonajeep@h...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 4:48pm
Subject: RE: Guns and self defense
Tom,
Make sure you sign up for our group... you'll be a great addition.
Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fred [mailto:fredtj@h...]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 5:40 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; Tom LaFrance
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Guns and self defense
>
>
> Thanks for clearing it up Tom. I dropped it, as no one was
> going to believe
> it. Like I mentioned, unless laws have changed in the last 4
> or 5 years,
> that's what was drilled into us when I took a the class, and
> is in the "blue
> book", as I remember it . I have the book still somewhere).. You can't
> threaten, you just do, if the case justifies it, and, as I
> mentioned, if it
> ever happens, remember that one of the two (the shooter or
> the shootee) has
> committed a very serious crime.
> The tresspassing part has another thing that I found
> interesting, regarding
> the state laws. You *can't* legally shoot someone for
> criminal tresspass,
> however you *can* threaten to. Strange state ;)
> I should probably stay updated on state laws, as maybe
> somethings changed.
> When I took the class, rape has another time where deadly
> force could be
> used.
> :)
> Fred
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom LaFrance" <tlafrance@j...>
> To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 4:54 PM
> Subject: [az_vjc] Guns and self defense
>
>
> > Only when someone is about to kill you (or a 3rd party) can you use
> > deadly force to prevent their actions.
> >
> > You may ONLY threaten the use of deadly force to prevent criminal
> > trespass.
> >
> > Anything else can be considered brandishing under the
> disorderly conduct
> > code and is a class 6 felony with an average sentence of 3 years in
> > prison.
> >
> > JW: A SIG 220 only carries 8 + 1, thats 1 more than my
> revo :-) I'll
> > take you up on some friendly competition anytime to change your mind
> > regarding reloading with speed loaders as well. BTW you
> can chose which
> > hand I use to make it fair :-p
> >
> > Tom LaFrance
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
37504 From: Scott Kruize <scottkruize@e...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 4:56pm
Subject: RE: Guns and self defense
Joe,
I've already joined. Now I need to setup a new folder and configure a filter
in outlook :)
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe W [mailto:arizonajeep@h...]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 5:48 PM
To: 'Fred'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; 'Tom LaFrance'
Cc: Azvgc (E-mail)
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Guns and self defense
Tom,
Make sure you sign up for our group... you'll be a great addition.
Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fred [mailto:fredtj@h...]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 5:40 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; Tom LaFrance
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Guns and self defense
>
>
> Thanks for clearing it up Tom. I dropped it, as no one was
> going to believe
> it. Like I mentioned, unless laws have changed in the last 4
> or 5 years,
> that's what was drilled into us when I took a the class, and
> is in the "blue
> book", as I remember it . I have the book still somewhere).. You can't
> threaten, you just do, if the case justifies it, and, as I
> mentioned, if it
> ever happens, remember that one of the two (the shooter or
> the shootee) has
> committed a very serious crime.
> The tresspassing part has another thing that I found
> interesting, regarding
> the state laws. You *can't* legally shoot someone for
> criminal tresspass,
> however you *can* threaten to. Strange state ;)
> I should probably stay updated on state laws, as maybe
> somethings changed.
> When I took the class, rape has another time where deadly
> force could be
> used.
> :)
> Fred
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom LaFrance" <tlafrance@j...>
> To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 4:54 PM
> Subject: [az_vjc] Guns and self defense
>
>
> > Only when someone is about to kill you (or a 3rd party) can you use
> > deadly force to prevent their actions.
> >
> > You may ONLY threaten the use of deadly force to prevent criminal
> > trespass.
> >
> > Anything else can be considered brandishing under the
> disorderly conduct
> > code and is a class 6 felony with an average sentence of 3 years in
> > prison.
> >
> > JW: A SIG 220 only carries 8 + 1, thats 1 more than my
> revo :-) I'll
> > take you up on some friendly competition anytime to change your mind
> > regarding reloading with speed loaders as well. BTW you
> can chose which
> > hand I use to make it fair :-p
> >
> > Tom LaFrance
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
37505 From: linda luik <minihummer@w...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 4:43pm
Subject: Update - SUV Pull at the Coves
All,
I was contacted by Jason from the Mesa Ranger District asking about a
date to pull the SUV out of the 2nd Cove. Apparently the off-road
recovery tow truck that was seen heading in there was out to get another
stuck vehicle. The Ranger's Office has not been contacted by any OR
Recovery Service about the burned SUV. The USFS has already pulled the
VIN tags and plates off the SUV and the Sheriff's Dept has been notified
that we are pulling it out. I gave him the Dec 29 date. Even so, I want
to make sure it is still there. I didn't have time to make it out there
last weekend so will be going out there on Saturday (Dec 22) morning --
just a quick trip.
Linda
linda luik wrote:
>
> So far it looks like Saturday. Sorry. Right now we have 2 FS Jeep
> trucks, 2 Dodge trucks (one gas, one diesel), a FS Blazer, and a few
> winches mounted on Jeeps.
>
> Linda
>
> Shawn Passmore wrote:
> >
> > Hey guy/gals,
> > I would love to help, but unfortunately I work on Saturdays, any chance of
> > making it Sunday??? I only ask because a friend of mine said that he would
> > be willing to help also....Ok, what relevance does this have? Well he drives
> > a Unimog!!! That thing could pull a house over those tiny little hills!!
> > Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
> > Please feel free to flame away!!! LOL
> > Shawn
> > jeepcj5nut
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "linda luik" <minihummer@w...>
> > To: "Len Sullivan" <kermit@e...>; "Halverson" <byrnec@q...>;
> > "Nixon, Scott" <scnix1@h...>; "DougB" <azjeep@h...>; "Gary Holmes"
> > <Niitoyis@w...>; "Robert Holmes" <flamable_liquid@h...>;
> > "Bab****, Charles H" <charles.h.bab****@i...>; "az_vjc"
> > <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>; "graham, steve" <stevegraham@w...>
> > Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 7:04 PM
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Holiday Party - Coves Cleanup - SUV Pull
> >
> > > Well, so far it looks like we have a pretty good turnout. I will post
> > > this as trail ride for Saturday, Dec 29, if that's okay with everyone. I
> > > will contact the FS with the date. Meet at Butcher Jones at 9:00-9:30am
> > > and go from there. I hope it doesn't rain!
> > >
> > > Sign ups so far are:
> > >
> > > LenS
> > > JohnH
> > > DougB
> > > GaryH
> > > RobertH
> > > CharlesB
> > > SteveG
> > > ScottN?
> > >
> > > LindaL
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
37506 From: Ralph Williams <ralphbw@q...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 6:12pm
Subject: Re: Tailgate & shop manual for cherokee
'95's did not have the opening rear glass. Otherwise it should
fit. '97-'98 should also work.
Shop manual should be available from a dealer or from the 800
number in the back of the owners manual.
Hope this helps,
Ralph
Rollie kent wrote:
>
> I need a tailgate for my 96 grand cherokee. I was told that 95 & 96 are
> interchangeable, anyone know if this is correct?
> Anyone know where I can get a shop manual for a 96 grand cherokee? how about
> a tailgate?
>
> __________________________________________________ _______________
> Join the world s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
37507 From: Ralph Williams <ralphbw@q...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 6:16pm
Subject: Re: ........GUNS----->Please read this
We usually carry a little Baretta pistol, lays on the console.
Just bought a couple of mini-14's, suppose they will lay in the
back.
Have a ZJ so it is soft and cushy, not like the SWB's. :)
Ralph
sinclare_jon wrote:
>
> what do you all think?
> I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel alone and
> I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and take
> pictures.
> I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but the
> last guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. His
> point is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.
>
> So the question is: What do you carry and where?
>
> thanks
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
37508 From: Hackle <hackle@q...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 6:24pm
Subject: Discount Tire
This is getting old but I want to thank Rick Beer for taking such great
care of my YJ and myself today. I called him this morning to check on a set
of 35" MT/R's and he had them in stock. They are now on my Jeep and look
great. Thanks Rick and when ever you are ready for a wrench session on your
Jeep I think you will find plenty of volunteers. Jim F.
I refuse to belong to any group that would have me as a member. "Groucho
Marx"
Member of the original dirty half dozen.
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/index.htm/
37509 From: Len Sullivan <kermit@e...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 6:50pm
Subject: Re: Update - SUV Pull at the Coves
If we can't get it out in one piece, Mike and I can bring 2 cordless
sawzalls plus another sawzall with an inverter. We can cut it up and put it
in baggies like DougB suggested.
Len
-----Original Message-----
From: linda luik <minihummer@w...>
To: AZVJC <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>; Nixon, Scott <scnix1@h...>; bab****,
charles <charles.h.bab****@i...>
Date: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 5:48 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Update - SUV Pull at the Coves
>All,
>
>I was contacted by Jason from the Mesa Ranger District asking about a
>date to pull the SUV out of the 2nd Cove. Apparently the off-road
>recovery tow truck that was seen heading in there was out to get another
>stuck vehicle. The Ranger's Office has not been contacted by any OR
>Recovery Service about the burned SUV. The USFS has already pulled the
>VIN tags and plates off the SUV and the Sheriff's Dept has been notified
>that we are pulling it out. I gave him the Dec 29 date. Even so, I want
>to make sure it is still there. I didn't have time to make it out there
>last weekend so will be going out there on Saturday (Dec 22) morning --
>just a quick trip.
>
>Linda
>
>linda luik wrote:
>>
>> So far it looks like Saturday. Sorry. Right now we have 2 FS Jeep
>> trucks, 2 Dodge trucks (one gas, one diesel), a FS Blazer, and a few
>> winches mounted on Jeeps.
>>
>> Linda
>>
>> Shawn Passmore wrote:
>> >
>> > Hey guy/gals,
>> > I would love to help, but unfortunately I work on Saturdays, any chance
of
>> > making it Sunday??? I only ask because a friend of mine said that he
would
>> > be willing to help also....Ok, what relevance does this have? Well he
drives
>> > a Unimog!!! That thing could pull a house over those tiny little
hills!!
>> > Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
>> > Please feel free to flame away!!! LOL
>> > Shawn
>> > jeepcj5nut
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "linda luik" <minihummer@w...>
>> > To: "Len Sullivan" <kermit@e...>; "Halverson"
<byrnec@q...>;
>> > "Nixon, Scott" <scnix1@h...>; "DougB" <azjeep@h...>; "Gary
Holmes"
>> > <Niitoyis@w...>; "Robert Holmes"
<flamable_liquid@h...>;
>> > "Bab****, Charles H" <charles.h.bab****@i...>; "az_vjc"
>> > <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>; "graham, steve"
<stevegraham@w...>
>> > Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 7:04 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Holiday Party - Coves Cleanup - SUV Pull
>> >
>> > > Well, so far it looks like we have a pretty good turnout. I will post
>> > > this as trail ride for Saturday, Dec 29, if that's okay with
everyone. I
>> > > will contact the FS with the date. Meet at Butcher Jones at
9:00-9:30am
>> > > and go from there. I hope it doesn't rain!
>> > >
>> > > Sign ups so far are:
>> > >
>> > > LenS
>> > > JohnH
>> > > DougB
>> > > GaryH
>> > > RobertH
>> > > CharlesB
>> > > SteveG
>> > > ScottN?
>> > >
>> > > LindaL
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
37510 From: paparoach85251 <lespaparoach@m...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 6:54pm
Subject: update on the new Detroit Electrac
Late March.
Brent Bussell
Senior Account Administrator
Application Technician
Tractech Inc.
bbussell@t...
800-328-3850
586-759-3850
----- Original Message -----
From: <lespaparoach@m...>
To: <bbussell@t...>; <info@t...>
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 11:19 PM
Subject: Website Feedback Form
> Below is the result of your feedback form. It was submitted by
> (lespaparoach@m...) on Thursday, December 13, 2001 at 23:19:32
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
-
>
> Contact_FirstName: Les
>
> Contact_LastName: Roach
>
> Comments: When do you expect to release the new Detroit Electrac for
common Jeep axles dana 30, 35 and 44?
>
> submit: Submit Request
37511 From: DesertJeep <joey@d...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 6:56pm
Subject: RE: Axle Alley trip leader needed
That's funny. I'm going and Scott knows it but didn't list me at all!
Joey K
93YJ
PS I'm not drivin'. :)
-----Original Message-----
From: Stu Olson [mailto:solson8@qwest.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 2:47 PM
To: 'Chris Krieg'; 'Bill Mish'
Cc: 'AZ_VJC'
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Axle Alley trip leader needed
Chris....don't feel special....I'm trying to figure out how I got tossed into this group outing too! LOL Geez....ya spend a few wrenching sessions with Scott and look where it lands you! I don't know....I'm still making payments on my Jeep! LOL
Stu
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@mac.com]
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 11:50 PM
To: Bill Mish
Cc: AZ_VJC
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Axle Alley trip leader needed
Yup, definately the driver in my case. I need more stick time before I tackle the really tough trails. The Jeep is probably ready though.
Chris K
http://www.arizonatj.com
On Monday, December 17, 2001, at 11:49 PM, Bill Mish wrote:
What's your vehicle specs?
If a TJ like Scott's can make it, surely your Jeep can.....Well, OK, TJ's are limited by their drivers, I've seen Doug B do things that might make Scott wet his pants......
Hehehe, Scott's sleeping now, that's how I'm getting away with harassing him so much without him responding.
Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Krieg<>color>
To: Bill Mish<>color>
Cc: AZ_VJC<>color>
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 11:21 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Axle Alley trip leader needed
Hey, how did I get in that. Axle Alley is a bit extreme for me still. I'm still learning the ropes.
Chris K
On Monday, December 17, 2001, at 11:16 PM, Bill Mish wrote:
Sounds like an AZX4W run. Sure you guys are up for it?
Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Kruize
To: AZ_VJC
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 10:42 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Axle Alley trip leader needed
Some of us got the bug to run Axle Alley but we need a trip leader. Sometime between Christmas and New Years would be best.
From what I've heard we need at least 33's (35+ preferable) , traction devices front and rear, and a 4:1 low range (or auto tranny). A winch is required and you should also carry spare axleshafts, ujoints, etc and the necessary parts to repair them. Oh yeah, don't forget your cajones.
So far Flexxy, Joe W, Chris K, Stu O, and myself have expressed interest in going if we can find a trip leader and an acceptable date for all. (Stu, I don't think there will be any strippers so quit thinking like that ;) Joe W, leave your thesis on impedance at home, I don't want to have to pry you and Stu apart.
Who wants to be the "Big Dog" and show us the way?
Thanks in advance,
Scott
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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37512 From: DougB <azjeep@h...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 7:23pm
Subject: Too lazy to send cards
Happy Holidays everyone!
Doug
Attachment: (image/jpeg) Jeepin Santa.jpg [not stored]
37513 From: Eric Kaufmann <edkmann@h...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 7:41pm
Subject: Re: ........GUNS----->Please read this
Always ALways makes sense to have some sort of firearm with you. You can
meet the nastiest people in the nicest places...and they will usually out
number you if you happen to be alone. Pistols are convenient, but rifles are
much more decisive and easier to use. There are many many options available,
if you do not wish to spend a lot of money, go to J&G Sales in Prescott and
pick yourself up a surplus military rifle. One of my favorite camp guns has
become a Russian Moisan-Nagant bolt action carbine in 7.62x54. You can find
a nice surplus example in very good to new condition for $50.00 or so, ammo
is inexpensive and ballistically similar to a 30-06. Doesn't matter if it
gets dinged up and is well proven. I lay my rifle behind the front seats on
the passenger compartment floor. If I have a pistol I hang it in a pouch on
the back of the front passenger seat.
Also...there have been a number of predator (animal...four legged variety)
the past few years.....out by Bartlett Lake about 2 years ago a 7 year old
girl was dragged off into the bushes by a 160 pound mountain lion. Dad was
un-armed and used yelling and rocks to get it to drop the child. Granted, a
gun would have done no good while the cat actually had the child, but a WW2
rifle makes a great club too, until a coup de grace can be administered.
anyway...just my two cents....
>From: Ralph Williams <ralphbw@q...>
>To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
>Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 19:16:01 -0700
>
>We usually carry a little Baretta pistol, lays on the console.
>Just bought a couple of mini-14's, suppose they will lay in the
>back.
>Have a ZJ so it is soft and cushy, not like the SWB's. :)
>
>Ralph
>
>
>sinclare_jon wrote:
> >
> > what do you all think?
> > I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel alone and
> > I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and take
> > pictures.
> > I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but the
> > last guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. His
> > point is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.
> >
> > So the question is: What do you carry and where?
> >
> > thanks
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
__________________________________________________ _______________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
37514 From: Nick <nnote@a...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 7:56pm
Subject: Re: Update - SUV Pull at the Coves
So where is the suv being taken after it's pulled out??
Nick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Len Sullivan" <kermit@e...>
To: "AZVJC" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Update - SUV Pull at the Coves
> If we can't get it out in one piece, Mike and I can bring 2 cordless
> sawzalls plus another sawzall with an inverter. We can cut it up and put
it
> in baggies like DougB suggested.
>
> Len
37515 From: linda luik <minihummer@w...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 7:44pm
Subject: [LU] lynx hoax seattle times
Here's a good example of a way to fence off public land.
Linda
Coop wrote:
>
> http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134379764_lynx18m.html
>
> Tuesday, December 18, 2001 - 12:00 a.m. Pacific
>
> Lynx count a hair off? Fur flies over fake find
>
> By Lynda V. Mapes lmapes@s...
> Seattle Times staff reporter
>
> U.S. Forest Service officials leapt into damage-control mode yesterday
> after a disclosure
> that federal and state employees on Washington public lands had sent
> bogus lynx-hair
> samples to a lab.
>
> The samples are used by federal scientists surveying the presence of the
> threatened Canada
> lynx, and they play a part in determining whether logging and wintertime
> motorized
> recreation should be restricted to protect the animals.
>
> The revelation that employees had mailed in hairs from captive lynx hit
> like a bombshell.
>
> "This calls into question everything they are putting out about the
> lynx. Who knows what's
> right and what's wrong?" said Adena Cook of the Blue Ribbon Coalition, a
> national
> motorized-recreation advocacy group based in Idaho Falls. "There is big
> dissatisfaction that
> the system is rigged."
>
> The Canada lynx was listed March 24, 2000, under the federal Endangered
> Species Act as
> threatened in 16 northern states, including Utah and Colorado.
>
> Officials from Washington state to Maine are trying to determine the
> range of the animal, and
> efforts are under way to improve lynx survival in 57 national forests.
>
> The employees involved, who have not been identified, said they had
> submitted the hair
> samples not to change the outcome of the survey but to determine the
> accuracy of the lab's
> DNA analysis, said Joel Holtrop, a Forest Service spokesman in
> Washington, D.C.
>
> The Forest Service has known about the hair samples since the fall of
> 2000, when an
> employee told the lynx-survey supervisor he had mailed in the samples.
>
> An outside investigator hired by the agency in February concluded in
> June that three
> employees at the Gifford Pinchot National Forest in Southwest Washington
> were involved.
>
> Investigators also learned that two U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
> employees and two
> Washington State Department of Fish and Wildlife employees were involved
> in two other
> bogus samples sent from the Wenatchee National Forest.
>
> None of the samples were included in regional survey results, or the
> national lynx survey. All
> remaining samples were determined to be legitimate.
>
> The Forest Service stands by the scientific integrity of the overall
> lynx sampling effort, which
> began in northern-tier states in 1998, said Holtrop. The incident, he
> added, was isolated.
>
> "There is no evidence or indication that anything similar to this has
> occurred on other
> species."
>
> The employees involved were "counseled" and have been forbidden from
> working on lynx
> surveys, Holtrop said.
>
> The Forest Service shared its findings with agency managers in August,
> informed
> national-forest supervisors of the survey in November, and briefed
> congressional-committee
> staffers last week.
>
> Some scoffed at the employees' explanation that they were trying to test
> the lab.
>
> "That's like saying, 'We weren't really robbing a bank, we were just
> testing to see if we
> could rob it,' " said Cook of the Blue Ribbon Coalition.
>
> "We recognize the inappropriate behavior of these individuals, and we
> don't want to see it
> happen again," Holtrop said. "This was unnecessary and inappropriate
> activity, and we don't
> support it in any way."
>
> The agency delayed making the matter public because it was a personnel
> issue, said Phil
> Mattson, acting group leader for range, watershed and fisheries for the
> Forest Service's
> Pacific Northwest region.
>
> Even if the employees had skewed the survey, follow-up work on the
> positive "hits" at the
> lab would have detected something amiss, Holtrop said.
>
> So far, the surveys have not confirmed the existence of lynx in the
> Wenatchee or Gifford
> Pinchot national forests, despite the cats' historic presence there.
>
> The Okanogan is Washington's only national forest with a current,
> confirmed lynx
> population. The animals also have been sited in the Loomis Forest in
> north-central
> Washington.
>
> Mark Skatrud, who has done numerous lynx surveys for federal and state
> agencies, said the
> Forest Service is overreacting.
>
> "Near as I can gather, these employees had decided to check the validity
> of the lab," he
> said. "I think these people were doing a service to the region."
>
> Like other defenders of the lynx, Skatrud said he feared the flap would
> distract from
> preservation of the lynx and cast a pall on biological research.
>
> Lynda V. Mapes can be reached at 206-464-2736 or
> lmapes@s....
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++
> NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, any copyrighted
> material herein is distributed without profit or payment to those who
> have
> expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for
> non-profit
> research and educational purposes only. For more information go to:
> http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml
>
> --
> "The American people will never knowingly adopt
> socialism, but under the name of liberalism they
> will adopt every fragment of the socialist program
> until one day America will be a socialist nation
> without ever knowing how it happened".
>
> --Norman Thomas, Socialist Party presidential
> candidate and one of the founders of the ACLU---
>
> _______________________________________________
> Landuse mailing list
> Landuse@l...
> http://lists.off-road.com/mailman/listinfo/landuse
37516 From: gev39 <gev39@y...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 7:59pm
Subject: GOing out Wednesday?
I dont have to work so I'm going wheeling. Table Mesa anyone?
Russell
37517 From: linda luik <minihummer@w...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 7:47pm
Subject: Re: Update - SUV Pull at the Coves
The forest service will have it towed from the Butcher Jones Rec Area.
Us moving it from Cove 2 to Butcher Jones is a money-saver for the
Forest Service and it gives us a chance improve the image of 4-wheeling
with the USFS and the public at the same time.
Linda
Nick wrote:
>
> So where is the suv being taken after it's pulled out??
> Nick
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Len Sullivan" <kermit@e...>
> To: "AZVJC" <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 7:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Update - SUV Pull at the Coves
>
> > If we can't get it out in one piece, Mike and I can bring 2 cordless
> > sawzalls plus another sawzall with an inverter. We can cut it up and put
> it
> > in baggies like DougB suggested.
> >
> > Len
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
37518 From: Gary Holmes <niitoyis@w...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 8:04pm
Subject: Re: Fire Extinquisher
Lynch:
You're right, it was ABC and there is some concern about that but then again, if
you let the fire go it becomes a mote point. The Halon extinguishers were about
$180.00 each for 5 lb. If you want, I will ignore a fire on your rig.
Gary Holmes
lynch wrote:
> Gary and Mike:
>
> On both of your extinguishers, were they CO2 or the ABC dry type? I believe
> the ABC type can corrode electronics and such, can anyone verify this?
>
> Regards,
>
> lynch
>
> On Tue, Dec 18, 2001 at 04:49:38PM -0700, Gary Holmes wrote:
> > Mike and Crew:
> >
> > I went to Roadrunner Fire Extinguisher etc. company recently and picked up
> > used (but guaranteed) 5 lb. fire extinguishers for approx. $32.00 each. Put
> > 2 in the Camo Cow. Can't have enough fire extinguishers when you need them
> > (from personal experience.)
> >
> > Gary Holmes
> >
> > Yeah, they were fully charged!
> >
> > jeepin_in_az wrote:
> >
> > > Just got back from Sam's Club (I gotta stay away from there!), and
> > > picked up a 2 pack of 2.5 lbs fire extinquishers for $17. That is
> > > pretty cheap from what I have seen. I am going to wrap mine up and
> > > put it under the tree, "To: Mike, From: Santa!"
> > >
> > > Mike Baney
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
37519 From: dthorton_2000 <dt_horton@h...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 8:24pm
Subject: Re: MIG welder Questions
http://www.welding-direct.com/migwelders3.html
http://fostertool.com/hobart135.html
Miller & Hobart have good 135amp 115v models. New $400-500
3/16 inch in a single pass limit though.
Dan
--- In az_vjc@y..., "David R. W. Withers" <dr_ww@h...> wrote:
> OK, After John @ hunter off-road does a few things for me, I
want to
> start doing my own welding.
> So what do I use to compare welders?
> What are the best brands for the money?
> I need it to plug into a normal isolated household outlet.
> AND I don't have Scott K or Joe W. money, hence why I'm
buying the
> welder.
> Also, my wife isn't a doctor either.
>
> What are some good suggestions.
>
> David R. W. Withers
> Desk: 480.551.4667
> Mobile: 480.215.6992
37520 From: hiett710 <hiett710@y...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 8:25pm
Subject: Re: ........GUNS----->Please read this
This is in response to the Accidental Discharge question earlier. If
you carry your weapon accoarding to state law you shouldn't have any
problems with an "AD" while wheeling. I personally don't believe not
chambering a round is the way to go. If you need it you need it now!
You may not have time to "****/load" it. It's simple physics. If you
pull the trigger it fires if you don't pull the trigger it won't fire
and state law says if it's not in plain view it will be in a holster,
most holsters hide the trigger from the acidental finger or the
unfortunate tire pressure gague in the glovebox. If your firearm has
a safety it's best to have that engaged. In my case I carry a Glock
9mm in a plastic paddle holster that fits right into my drivers seat
adjuster. it gives me quick access, It's completely legal and it
never leaves the holster unless I pull it out (won't fall out on a
bumpy road)I can't vouch that it'll stay holstered if I flip
completely upsidedown but it's a chance I'm willing to take. As for
if it's best to carry or not to carry that is up to the individual. I
would suggest a safety and porficiency class for everyone who's not
completely familiar with a/their weapon. You also have to be carefull
when on National Park land... well I've been long winded enough. Hope
this Helps..
Mike Hiett
02 Yellow (banannannanna) TJ
Coil springs are better.
--- In az_vjc@y..., "sinclare_jon" <sinclare_jon@y...> wrote:
> what do you all think?
> I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel alone
and
> I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and take
> pictures.
> I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but the
> last guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. His
> point is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.
>
> So the question is: What do you carry and where?
>
> thanks
37521 From: hiett710 <hiett710@y...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 8:48pm
Subject: Re: GOing out Wednesday?
How long of a run is it? I have to be in Casa Grande by 2pm but my
morning is free.
Mike
--- In az_vjc@y..., "gev39" <gev39@y...> wrote:
> I dont have to work so I'm going wheeling. Table Mesa anyone?
> Russell
37522 From: brent_lizakowski <brent_lizakowski@h...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 9:28pm
Subject: Re: MIG welder Questions
You can pick up a 220 Volt MIG Hobart Handler 175 for about $535.
Contact the guys at http://www.tollgas.com When I got mine, the had a
deal with free shipping. I believe now that they're throwing in a
free cart with that as well. I've never welded before I bought this
thing and I've been able to figure it out without any problems (so
far).
Also, check Harbor freight. They've had good deals on both the Hobart
175 and the 135.
From what I hear, MIGs are easy to learn on (I'll attest to that -
but I can't be for certain, because I'd never done any sort of
welding before).
Brent
--- In az_vjc@y..., "dthorton_2000" <dt_horton@h...> wrote:
> http://www.welding-direct.com/migwelders3.html
>
> http://fostertool.com/hobart135.html
>
> Miller & Hobart have good 135amp 115v models. New $400-500
> 3/16 inch in a single pass limit though.
>
> Dan
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "David R. W. Withers" <dr_ww@h...> wrote:
> > OK, After John @ hunter off-road does a few things for me, I
> want to
> > start doing my own welding.
> > So what do I use to compare welders?
> > What are the best brands for the money?
> > I need it to plug into a normal isolated household outlet.
> > AND I don't have Scott K or Joe W. money, hence why I'm
> buying the
> > welder.
> > Also, my wife isn't a doctor either.
> >
> > What are some good suggestions.
> >
> > David R. W. Withers
> > Desk: 480.551.4667
> > Mobile: 480.215.6992
37523 From: trmn8rjn98 <trmn8rjn98@a...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 9:48pm
Subject: Possible selling my 87 XJ with D44 rear
Not shure yet, but having thoughts of selling the XJ to build up my
ZJ I just don't have the income to do both of them at the same time.
Here is the specs 87 XJ 4.0 aw4 242 case. D44 rear with brand new
lockrite & brake drums, front D30 non disconnect axle. Both with
3.55s still. Interior is in good to decent shape would say real good
for the year PW,PDL,Tilt all the usual stuff. Has a procomp 3" lift
(I believe) running 32" bfg muds on gamblers. Works real good did
lower terminater with Joes birthday run. Has some body damage all
small stuff mostly from vandalizim before I got it, but did add some
on terminater. Still looks pretty good though overall. It is metallic
chocolate brown with the tan interior. The price would be $3500 if
interested either shoot me an e-mail or post back here. Known
problems are speedo doesn't work right now (havent looked at it yet)
Ac doesent work now (same) Fan blows but compressor does not engage.
Some of the door locks are sticky & windows need some lubeing they
all work but slowly.
Let me know
John
trmn8rjn98@a...
37524 From: lynch <lynch@v...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 9:54pm
Subject: Re: Fire Extinquisher
I wasn't sure if the 'corrosion' bit was true or not.. and with halon one
runs the risk of asphyxiating people too. Ya can't win! As long as you
aren't spraying me with halon, by all means don't ignore my rig! :P
(i.e. no offense was intended)
At least with the old CO2 units you could spray people -- perhaps not
recommended behavior, but a science teacher way back in high school
blasted me with one for not paying attention in class. :/
-lynch
On Tue, Dec 18, 2001 at 09:04:10PM -0700, Gary Holmes wrote:
> Lynch:
>
> You're right, it was ABC and there is some concern about that but then again, if
> you let the fire go it becomes a mote point. The Halon extinguishers were about
> $180.00 each for 5 lb. If you want, I will ignore a fire on your rig.
>
> Gary Holmes
>
> lynch wrote:
>
> > Gary and Mike:
> >
> > On both of your extinguishers, were they CO2 or the ABC dry type? I believe
> > the ABC type can corrode electronics and such, can anyone verify this?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > lynch
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 18, 2001 at 04:49:38PM -0700, Gary Holmes wrote:
> > > Mike and Crew:
> > >
> > > I went to Roadrunner Fire Extinguisher etc. company recently and picked up
> > > used (but guaranteed) 5 lb. fire extinguishers for approx. $32.00 each. Put
> > > 2 in the Camo Cow. Can't have enough fire extinguishers when you need them
> > > (from personal experience.)
> > >
> > > Gary Holmes
> > >
> > > Yeah, they were fully charged!
> > >
> > > jeepin_in_az wrote:
> > >
> > > > Just got back from Sam's Club (I gotta stay away from there!), and
> > > > picked up a 2 pack of 2.5 lbs fire extinquishers for $17. That is
> > > > pretty cheap from what I have seen. I am going to wrap mine up and
> > > > put it under the tree, "To: Mike, From: Santa!"
> > > >
> > > > Mike Baney
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
>
37525 From: johnrabenius2001 <johnrabenius@h...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 9:51pm
Subject: Dana 30 front axle housing w/ 4.56 gears for sale
I am selling the Dana 30 front axle housing out of my 2000 Jeep
Cherokee.
It has Dana Spicer 4.56 gears and an open carrier.
The axle housing DOES NOT have axle shafts, hubs, rotors, or calipers.
The gears and carrier are only 8 months old, and have close to 6,000
miles on them.
I paid $225.00 for the gears
$ 50.00 for the carrier
$ 75.00 for the install kit (seals and bearings)
$250.00 for the shop to set it all up
. . . That's $600.00! Own it all AND the housing for $300.00!
All you need to do is pull the axle shaft asemblies out of your
existing Dana 30, drop them in this housing, and you have 4.56 gears!
Just remove the three bolts per side! No set up costs!
reply back or call me at:
480-236-4509 cell
480-496-4124 message
John Rabenius
37526 From: Brian Harmon <xjnation@h...>
Date: Wed Dec 19, 2001 6:09am
Subject: Sending out AA syes today.....and extending the deadline till the 30th
Hye All,
I just got the shipment of syes last night and have them all labled and will
de going out today.....and I am also extending the group buy deadline till
dec 30th for those who couldnt make the first deadline....besides I forgot
to order mine!
http://xjnation.homestead.com/index.html...shipping went up 10.00 Ilost my
shirt onthe first order!
Brian Harmon
88 XJ Laredo
http://www.cherokee-nation.com
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