blooddrive
01-04-2004, 09:06 AM
37452-37476
37452 From: Scott Kruize <scottkruize@e...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 0:19pm
Subject: RE: ........GUNS----->Please read this
Good point. In this scenario you probably were within your legal rights to
protect your family from harm. Had they proceeded to try to run over your
kids I doubt there is a jury anywhere (except maybe in California) that
wouldn't acquit you.
These are the types of scenarios that never show up in the propaganda
statistics put out by the Gun Control people. They like to only show
information regarding actual shootings of children, etc wihtout including
the number of lives that are saved evey year by guns that are never even
fired. But again, this is another debate.
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: Siade, Randy [mailto:randy.siade@u...]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:08 PM
To: 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jon
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
Here is a true story at the coves. I took my wife and kids to the first
cover for some recreation swimming and fishing. My kids are in the water
playing with my wife close by when these drunk guys in a jeep come down the
big hill and want to travel through the water where my kids are playing.
They tell my wife to move the kids out of the way or they will run them
over. My wife stepped in between them and the kids. They start yelling and
moving forward. In the mean time I had pulled my 9mm out walked up to them
and they yelled at me to get my wife and kids out of the way or they where
going to run them over. I calmly pulled my 9mm out and told them the "I have
a 9mm says you don't". They decided to go around another way.
-----Original Message-----
From: Nick [mailto:nnote@a...]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:18 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jon
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
More than once while wheeling I've come across a group of ATF people, you
know, smoking drinking and shooting guns. It makes me nervous as hell and I
do plan on getting my own gun to carry someday.
There was an article in the paper the other day about this. The author was
writing that he always carried his gun at night but on this particular night
he wasn't. He got cut off by a driver and when he gave the guy the finger,
the other driver flashed a gun at him. He said that in reallity he was glad
he had forgotten his gun that day because the situation could have very
easily escalated into someone getting shot. It's just another interesting
view of what may happen. If those ATF people had seen a gun on me it could
have frightened them into pointing theirs at me.
On the other hand, when I went hiking into four peaks a couple of weekends
ago, I had a shotgun with me, and it made me feel more secure. Not for
people but because it is a prime bear habitat.
Nick
----- Original Message -----
From: "sinclare_jon" <sinclare_jon@y...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:03 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
> what do you all think?
> I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel alone and
> I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and take
> pictures.
> I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but the
> last guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. His
> point is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.
>
> So the question is: What do you carry and where?
>
> thanks
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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37453 From: Fred <fredtj@h...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 0:26pm
Subject: Re: Any word on that girl who was hurt out at Chiva Falls this past weekend?
Never heard anything that happened. What was it. A wheel'n accident ?
Fred
jeeperaz wrote:
>Just curious if anyone knows how she is doing.
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
37454 From: David R. W. Withers <dr_ww@h...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 0:24pm
Subject: RE: Any word on that girl who was hurt out at Chiva Falls this past weekend?
Inform us all please
-----Original Message-----
From: Fred [mailto:fredtj@h...]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:26 PM
To: jeeperaz
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Any word on that girl who was hurt out at Chiva
Falls this past weekend?
Never heard anything that happened. What was it. A wheel'n accident ?
Fred
jeeperaz wrote:
>Just curious if anyone knows how she is doing.
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
37455 From: JW <joew@a...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 0:42pm
Subject: RE: ........GUNS----->Please read this
Hi Jon,
I carry a .45 sig concealed and I carry it with me at all times.
One of our members Tom LaFrance, teaches concealed carry... I would highly
recommend
that you take a concealed carry class. Even if you don't carry concealed,
the training
is outstanding.
Kind Regards,
Joe West
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sinclare_jon [mailto:sinclare_jon@y...]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:03 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
>
>
> what do you all think?
> I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel alone and
> I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and take
> pictures.
> I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but the
> last guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. His
> point is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.
>
> So the question is: What do you carry and where?
>
> thanks
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
37456 From: jetowle2000 <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 0:48pm
Subject: Re: Macromotive Discount Question
Who, what is the persons name, that you talked to?
They honor the club discount at the stores.
....Tony from ORU are you listening now. I know you listen in....
We have been through this several times before, how frustrating. If
you would like to have it from the store you can get it. It is up to
you.
If I can help let me know.
--James
--- In az_vjc@y..., "jeepfanatic97" <itsajeepthing@a...> wrote:
> I'm looking to buy some stuff off of Macromotive.com but when i
> called them they told me to use the discount i have to do everthing
> online ........when i'm online i don't see any where to put our
club
> acct # in at......Can some one please help me out on this.
>
> Thanks
> Rob
> 97 TJ
37457 From: <fls82@a...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 8:00am
Subject: Re: GUNS->Please read ... Bull - oney!
ATF?...
IF they are doing something illegal, and not just something that makes you feel uncomfortable or nervous, get the plate number and report it ...
It IS your DUTY to do so...
Editor "glad" that He didn't have "his gun" that night?... Oh Really?
Editor was "cut off" and then "gave the guy the finger"...
"other driver flashed gun"
Did the "good editor" report that (to the police)? Nooooo, I'll Bet he didn't!!
What was the "good editor" going to do, if he DID have "his gun" ??
I have been carrying a pistol legally and illegally since before 1972 ...
I have been in this state (Arizona) for 21 years now ... L.A. Calif. for 25 years ...
and N.Y. before that ...
In this state you can get a CCW, "Concealed Carry" permit ...
Not hard to do and not terribly expensive ...
(you may also LEGALLY have a firearm on your person without one.)
You are also given SOME instruction as to when and where you can carry and if necessary, when you "MAY" be JUSTIFIED in using your firearm ...
Your BEST move is ALWAYS avoiding situations ... Drive around or walk away ...
Mine is like any other insurance policy ...
I pray that I will never have to use it ... but, I do want to be protected.
Now, if no one had "guns" and the "ATF" were pounding on a vehicle with pipes and baseball bats instead, would you be any LESS intimidated?... HELL NO !!
They could be doing that on a city street on Friday night, in YOUR neighborhood!!
And when they get thirsty from all of this "allowable" behavior, what keeps them from walking right into YOUR house?
Surely not the police .... At least not in time to do much more than to take a report!
It is not up to me to say if firearms are good or bad.
I'm just glad that I have the "INALIENABLE RIGHT" to make that choice.
And yes, I SHALL also protect my neighbor, even if he or she does care to personally own a gun.
The best "insurance" that I ever got, was a week at GUNSITE in Paulden Arizona ...
Better training than in The Marine Corps!!
(My wife also took the class, not all that strenuous!)
You just got a nickel's worth.
Jim B.
Flag.,AZ
YOU, are the weapon.
The tools that you choose,
only make you more efficient.
(an old DI said that.)
37458 From: JW <joew@a...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:02pm
Subject: RE: ........GUNS----->Please read this
No probably about it... if these guys had continued to threaten Randy's wife
and children with a deadly weapon (the vehicle), Randy would have been
within his legal rights to use deadly force to stop the driver.
Hopefully, Tom will speak out on this thread, but, having just taken a CCW
class this topic is fresh in my mind.
It is legal to display and threaten to use (in Arizona anyway) a weapon to
protect a third party (in this case, Randy's family) from deadly force. It
would have been legal for me or anyone else to protect Randy's family as
well.
Scott has touched on a number of great points (kudos Scott).
There was a time when I would have argued that having a weapon is just plain
not needed since statistically, you will probably never have occasion to use
it to protect yourself...
When the Indian gas station attendant died by being shot dead two blocks
from my house in Mesa at the gas station that I go to twice a week... and I
was going there to get gas just after he was shot and I saw the police just
pulling up... my mind was changed forever.
If I had been at the gas station 5 minutes earlier, I would have been there
at the time of the shooting. Had I been there, and had to stand idly by and
watch a man get shot to death; it would have caused me no end of grief.
I signed up for a concealed carry class and purchased my .45 sig a few days
later.
I hope that I never need to use my weapon... but if I ever encounter a
situation where I need it, I will not hesitate a nanosecond to use it.
Kind Regards,
Joe West
PS. I joined the NRA to support their efforts to help ensure our second
amendment rights are never violated by our own government... I guess this
makes me a red-neck engineering geek. <grin>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Kruize [mailto:scottkruize@e...]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:19 PM
> To: Siade, Randy; 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jon
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
>
>
> Good point. In this scenario you probably were within your
> legal rights to
> protect your family from harm. Had they proceeded to try to
> run over your
> kids I doubt there is a jury anywhere (except maybe in
> California) that
> wouldn't acquit you.
>
> These are the types of scenarios that never show up in the propaganda
> statistics put out by the Gun Control people. They like to only show
> information regarding actual shootings of children, etc
> wihtout including
> the number of lives that are saved evey year by guns that are
> never even
> fired. But again, this is another debate.
>
> Scott K
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Siade, Randy [mailto:randy.siade@u...]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:08 PM
> To: 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jon
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
>
>
> Here is a true story at the coves. I took my wife and kids to
> the first
> cover for some recreation swimming and fishing. My kids are
> in the water
> playing with my wife close by when these drunk guys in a jeep
> come down the
> big hill and want to travel through the water where my kids
> are playing.
> They tell my wife to move the kids out of the way or they
> will run them
> over. My wife stepped in between them and the kids. They
> start yelling and
> moving forward. In the mean time I had pulled my 9mm out
> walked up to them
> and they yelled at me to get my wife and kids out of the way
> or they where
> going to run them over. I calmly pulled my 9mm out and told
> them the "I have
> a 9mm says you don't". They decided to go around another way.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nick [mailto:nnote@a...]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:18 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jon
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
>
>
> More than once while wheeling I've come across a group of ATF
> people, you
> know, smoking drinking and shooting guns. It makes me
> nervous as hell and I
> do plan on getting my own gun to carry someday.
> There was an article in the paper the other day about this.
> The author was
> writing that he always carried his gun at night but on this
> particular night
> he wasn't. He got cut off by a driver and when he gave the
> guy the finger,
> the other driver flashed a gun at him. He said that in
> reallity he was glad
> he had forgotten his gun that day because the situation could
> have very
> easily escalated into someone getting shot. It's just
> another interesting
> view of what may happen. If those ATF people had seen a gun
> on me it could
> have frightened them into pointing theirs at me.
> On the other hand, when I went hiking into four peaks a
> couple of weekends
> ago, I had a shotgun with me, and it made me feel more
> secure. Not for
> people but because it is a prime bear habitat.
> Nick
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "sinclare_jon" <sinclare_jon@y...>
> To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:03 PM
> Subject: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
>
>
> > what do you all think?
> > I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel
> alone and
> > I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and take
> > pictures.
> > I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but the
> > last guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. His
> > point is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.
> >
> > So the question is: What do you carry and where?
> >
> > thanks
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
37459 From: jaylalib <jaylalib@h...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:08pm
Subject: Re: ........GUNS----->Please read this
First let me say Randy that if I thought my family was in danger, I
would do what ever it took to protect them,
It may have been what was necessary to get them to leave you and your
kids alone. But what if one of "them" had a gun and decided to bring
it into the equation.
I owned a p89 9mm for years, until I moved in with my wife now and
her children. And now we have my son. I have been debating about
getting another one.
Food for thought....
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Siade, Randy" <randy.siade@u...> wrote:
> Here is a true story at the coves. I took my wife and kids to the
first
> cover for some recreation swimming and fishing. My kids are in the
water
> playing with my wife close by when these drunk guys in a jeep come
down the
> big hill and want to travel through the water where my kids are
playing.
> They tell my wife to move the kids out of the way or they will run
them
> over. My wife stepped in between them and the kids. They start
yelling and
> moving forward. In the mean time I had pulled my 9mm out walked up
to them
> and they yelled at me to get my wife and kids out of the way or
they where
> going to run them over. I calmly pulled my 9mm out and told them
the "I have
> a 9mm says you don't". They decided to go around another way.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nick [mailto:nnote@a...]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:18 PM
> To: az_vjc@y...; sinclare_jon
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
>
>
> More than once while wheeling I've come across a group of ATF
people, you
> know, smoking drinking and shooting guns. It makes me nervous as
hell and I
> do plan on getting my own gun to carry someday.
> There was an article in the paper the other day about this. The
author was
> writing that he always carried his gun at night but on this
particular night
> he wasn't. He got cut off by a driver and when he gave the guy the
finger,
> the other driver flashed a gun at him. He said that in reallity he
was glad
> he had forgotten his gun that day because the situation could have
very
> easily escalated into someone getting shot. It's just another
interesting
> view of what may happen. If those ATF people had seen a gun on me
it could
> have frightened them into pointing theirs at me.
> On the other hand, when I went hiking into four peaks a couple of
weekends
> ago, I had a shotgun with me, and it made me feel more secure. Not
for
> people but because it is a prime bear habitat.
> Nick
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "sinclare_jon" <sinclare_jon@y...>
> To: <az_vjc@y...>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:03 PM
> Subject: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
>
>
> > what do you all think?
> > I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel alone
and
> > I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and take
> > pictures.
> > I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but the
> > last guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. His
> > point is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.
> >
> > So the question is: What do you carry and where?
> >
> > thanks
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
37460 From: Nick <nnote@a...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:15pm
Subject: How many hoses off evap can.
Can someone with a yj tell me how many hoses they have coming off their charcol canister? I want to make sure I'm not missing one. I don't see how those emissions people clamped one off...the hoses are stiff plastic?!?!
Nick
37461 From: my1stjeep <my1stjeep@e...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:15pm
Subject: Re: ........GUNS----->Please read this
Can't say what for sure is the right call, obviously it worked out,
but I think I have to agree, if one of those drunks had pulled a gun
the next picture could have been very different. Thinking that having
the kids get out of the water would have been smarter, then when the
mess up and cry for help you just sit back and say I don't want to
chance getting run over. :o)~
Going back to lurking now.
Chris
"AzA"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- In az_vjc@y..., "jaylalib" <jaylalib@h...> wrote:
> First let me say Randy that if I thought my family was in danger, I
> would do what ever it took to protect them,
>
> It may have been what was necessary to get them to leave you and
your
> kids alone. But what if one of "them" had a gun and decided to
bring
> it into the equation.
>
> I owned a p89 9mm for years, until I moved in with my wife now and
> her children. And now we have my son. I have been debating about
> getting another one.
>
> Food for thought....
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Siade, Randy" <randy.siade@u...> wrote:
> > Here is a true story at the coves. I took my wife and kids to the
> first
> > cover for some recreation swimming and fishing. My kids are in the
> water
> > playing with my wife close by when these drunk guys in a jeep come
> down the
> > big hill and want to travel through the water where my kids are
> playing.
> > They tell my wife to move the kids out of the way or they will run
> them
> > over. My wife stepped in between them and the kids. They start
> yelling and
> > moving forward. In the mean time I had pulled my 9mm out walked up
> to them
> > and they yelled at me to get my wife and kids out of the way or
> they where
> > going to run them over. I calmly pulled my 9mm out and told them
> the "I have
> > a 9mm says you don't". They decided to go around another way.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Nick [mailto:nnote@a...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:18 PM
> > To: az_vjc@y...; sinclare_jon
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
> >
> >
> > More than once while wheeling I've come across a group of ATF
> people, you
> > know, smoking drinking and shooting guns. It makes me nervous as
> hell and I
> > do plan on getting my own gun to carry someday.
> > There was an article in the paper the other day about this. The
> author was
> > writing that he always carried his gun at night but on this
> particular night
> > he wasn't. He got cut off by a driver and when he gave the guy
the
> finger,
> > the other driver flashed a gun at him. He said that in reallity
he
> was glad
> > he had forgotten his gun that day because the situation could have
> very
> > easily escalated into someone getting shot. It's just another
> interesting
> > view of what may happen. If those ATF people had seen a gun on me
> it could
> > have frightened them into pointing theirs at me.
> > On the other hand, when I went hiking into four peaks a couple of
> weekends
> > ago, I had a shotgun with me, and it made me feel more secure.
Not
> for
> > people but because it is a prime bear habitat.
> > Nick
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "sinclare_jon" <sinclare_jon@y...>
> > To: <az_vjc@y...>
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:03 PM
> > Subject: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
> >
> >
> > > what do you all think?
> > > I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel
alone
> and
> > > I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and take
> > > pictures.
> > > I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but
the
> > > last guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. His
> > > point is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.
> > >
> > > So the question is: What do you carry and where?
> > >
> > > thanks
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
37462 From: Nick <nnote@a...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:18pm
Subject: Re: GUNS->Please read ... Bull - oney!
Ya, the editor called the police and reported it. He did escalate it and glad he didn't have his gun because he was scared he may have taken it further. I was just mentioning the article, not making an opinion about the situation.
Nick
----- Original Message -----
From: fls82@aol.com
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] GUNS->Please read ... Bull - oney!
ATF?...
IF they are doing something illegal, and not just something that makes you feel uncomfortable or nervous, get the plate number and report it ...
It IS your DUTY to do so...
Editor "glad" that He didn't have "his gun" that night?... Oh Really?
Editor was "cut off" and then "gave the guy the finger"...
"other driver flashed gun"
Did the "good editor" report that (to the police)? Nooooo, I'll Bet he didn't!!
What was the "good editor" going to do, if he DID have "his gun" ??
I have been carrying a pistol legally and illegally since before 1972 ...
I have been in this state (Arizona) for 21 years now ... L.A. Calif. for 25 years ...
and N.Y. before that ...
In this state you can get a CCW, "Concealed Carry" permit ...
Not hard to do and not terribly expensive ...
(you may also LEGALLY have a firearm on your person without one.)
You are also given SOME instruction as to when and where you can carry and if necessary, when you "MAY" be JUSTIFIED in using your firearm ...
Your BEST move is ALWAYS avoiding situations ... Drive around or walk away ...
Mine is like any other insurance policy ...
I pray that I will never have to use it ... but, I do want to be protected.
Now, if no one had "guns" and the "ATF" were pounding on a vehicle with pipes and baseball bats instead, would you be any LESS intimidated?... HELL NO !!
They could be doing that on a city street on Friday night, in YOUR neighborhood!!
And when they get thirsty from all of this "allowable" behavior, what keeps them from walking right into YOUR house?
Surely not the police .... At least not in time to do much more than to take a report!
It is not up to me to say if firearms are good or bad.
I'm just glad that I have the "INALIENABLE RIGHT" to make that choice.
And yes, I SHALL also protect my neighbor, even if he or she does care to personally own a gun.
The best "insurance" that I ever got, was a week at GUNSITE in Paulden Arizona ...
Better training than in The Marine Corps!!
(My wife also took the class, not all that strenuous!)
You just got a nickel's worth.
Jim B.
Flag.,AZ
YOU, are the weapon.
The tools that you choose,
only make you more efficient.
(an old DI said that.)
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
37463 From: my1stjeep <my1stjeep@e...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:20pm
Subject: [MS] Black ZJ in Surprise on Sunday
Tried to wave, not sure if you saw us, White Lifted XJ right be the
entrance to Home Depot on Bell Road. Anyway here is another wave.
Chris
"AzA"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
37464 From: JW <joew@a...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:20pm
Subject: RE: ........GUNS----->Please read this
Naw... I'm but a mere novice when it comes to ballistics. Scott Kruize has
probably forgotten more than I know.
Having fired both revolvers and automatics though... I'd have to disagree
with his preference for a revolver on the trail.
A good semi-automatic pistol and a couple of extra magazines and you'll be
in much better shape if you face a very large 4 legged critter. I don't
care how fast you are with a revolver speed loader... I can get off MANY
more rounds on my semi-automatic than you can with a revolver.
Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Wixom [mailto:certifiedinsp@m...]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:55 PM
> To: sinclare_jon; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; Scott Kruize
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
>
>
> Hey Joe W. I think we can start a whole discussion on ballistics now.
>
> Mike Wixom
> 85 CJ-7
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott Kruize" <scottkruize@e...>
> To: "sinclare_jon" <sinclare_jon@y...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:34 PM
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
>
>
> > Jon,
> >
> > I like to carry a .357 Magnum on the trail. It doesn't come
> out of the
> Jeep
> > unless its needed. It's not a good idea to brandish it
> unless your life is
> > threatened. I personally don't like wear it on my side
> either. I have
> found
> > that it tends to intimidate the other unarmed people out there.
> >
> > For a trail gun I would recommend a revolver, either .357
> Magnum or .44
> > Magnum. Its a much more reliable weapon IMO and typically
> has much more
> > knock down power than an automatic. Automatics (9mm,
> .40S&W, and .45)
> > typically are great for 2 legged critters but are
> underpowered for an
> > encounter with a 4 legged creature. I no longer carry in
> town, but when I
> > did I preferred my 9mm to the .357 Magnum for that type of use.
> >
> > I've wheeled for almost 8 years in Arizona and carried my
> .357 Magnum most
> > of the time. I've never needed it but you never know. There
> is alot of
> hype
> > and fear out there that I think is unwarranted. Don't let
> yourself get
> > carried away on the fear bandwagon. Use a little common
> sense. The odds
> are
> > that you'll never need a weapon. Of course it's also nice
> to know its
> there
> > just in case.
> >
> > Scott K
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: sinclare_jon [mailto:sinclare_jon@y...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:03 PM
> > To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
> >
> >
> > what do you all think?
> > I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel
> alone and
> > I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and take
> > pictures.
> > I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but the
> > last guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. His
> > point is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.
> >
> > So the question is: What do you carry and where?
> >
> > thanks
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
37465 From: Fred <fredtj@h...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:36pm
Subject: Re: ........GUNS----->Please read this
Mmmmm, unless they've changed a law or two in the last couple of years, when I checked last, it *IS* illegal to threaten to use of firearm, even if it's ok to use the firmarm (that is shoot someone) for that event. . It's not, of course, illegal to use the firearm to protect a third party from certain activities, but it is (or was) illegal to threaten to do so. . It's also illegal to shoot someone with the intent to wound, even if it was legal to use deadly force (ie shooting someone) to prevent the event. Lastly, this state also had a "fleeing felon" law that makes it illegal for a civilian (ie non police) to shot a person fleeing the scene regardless of what that person may have done. Anyways, this is how it was couple or so years ago.
:)
Fred
JW wrote:
No probably about it... if these guys had continued to threaten Randy's wifeand children with a deadly weapon (the vehicle), Randy would have beenwithin his legal rights to use deadly force to stop the driver.Hopefully, Tom will speak out on this thread, but, having just taken a CCWclass this topic is fresh in my mind.It is legal to display and threaten to use (in Arizona anyway) a weapon toprotect a third party (in this case, Randy's family) from deadly force. Itwould have been legal for me or anyone else to protect Randy's family aswell.Scott has touched on a number of great points (kudos Scott).There was a time when I would have argued that having a weapon is just plainnot needed since statistically, you will probably never have occasion to useit to protect yourself...When the Indian gas station attendant died by being shot dead two blocksfrom my house in Mesa at the gas station that I
go to twice a week... and Iwas going there to get gas just after he was shot and I saw the police justpulling up... my mind was changed forever.If I had been at the gas station 5 minutes earlier, I would have been thereat the time of the shooting. Had I been there, and had to stand idly by andwatch a man get shot to death; it would have caused me no end of grief.I signed up for a concealed carry class and purchased my .45 sig a few dayslater.I hope that I never need to use my weapon... but if I ever encounter asituation where I need it, I will not hesitate a nanosecond to use it.Kind Regards,Joe WestPS. I joined the NRA to support their efforts to help ensure our secondamendment rights are never violated by our own government... I guess thismakes me a red-neck engineering geek.
-----Original Message-----From: Scott Kruize [mailto:scottkruize@earthlink.net]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:19 PMTo: Siade, Randy; 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisGood point. In this scenario you probably were within yourlegal rights toprotect your family from harm. Had they proceeded to try torun over yourkids I doubt there is a jury anywhere (except maybe inCalifornia) thatwouldn't acquit you.These are the types of scenarios that never show up in the propagandastatistics put out by the Gun Control people. They like to only showinformation regarding actual shootings of children, etcwihtout includingthe number of lives that are saved evey year by guns that arenever evenfired. But again, this is another debate.Scott K-----Original Message-----From: Siade, Randy [mailto:randy.siade@unisys.com]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:08 PMTo: 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisHere is a true story at the coves. I took my wife and kids tothe firstcover for some recreation swimming and fishing. My kids arein the waterplaying with my wife close by when these drunk guys in a jeepcome down thebig hill and want to travel through the water where my kidsare playing.They tell my wife to move the kids out of the way or theywill run themover. My wife stepped in between them and the kids. Theystart yelling andmoving forward. In the mea
n time I had pulled my 9mm outwalked up to themand they yelled at me to get my wife and kids out of the wayor they wheregoing to run them over. I calmly pulled my 9mm out and toldthem the "I havea 9mm says you don't". They decided to go around another way.-----Original Message-----From: Nick [mailto:nnote@azboss.net]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:18 PMTo: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisMore than once while wheeling I've come across a group of ATFpeople, youknow, smoking drinking and shooting guns. It makes menervous as hell and Ido plan on getting my own gun to carry someday.There was an article in the paper the other day about this.The author waswriting that he always carried h
is gun at night but on thisparticular nighthe wasn't. He got cut off by a driver and when he gave theguy the finger,the other driver flashed a gun at him. He said that inreallity he was gladhe had forgotten his gun that day because the situation couldhave veryeasily escalated into someone getting shot. It's justanother interestingview of what may happen. If those ATF people had seen a gunon me it couldhave frightened them into pointing theirs at me.On the other hand, when I went hiking into four peaks acouple of weekendsago, I had a shotgun with me, and it made me feel moresecure. Not forpeople but because it is a prime bear habitat.Nick----- Original Message -----From: "sinclare_jon" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:03 PMSubject: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
what do you all think?I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel
alone and
I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and takepictures.I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but thelast guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. Hispoint is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.So the question is: What do you carry and where?thanksYour use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
37466 From: jeepin_in_az <jeepin_in_az@y...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:32pm
Subject: Fire Extinquisher
Just got back from Sam's Club (I gotta stay away from there!), and
picked up a 2 pack of 2.5 lbs fire extinquishers for $17. That is
pretty cheap from what I have seen. I am going to wrap mine up and
put it under the tree, "To: Mike, From: Santa!"
Mike Baney
37467 From: jaylalib <jaylalib@h...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:33pm
Subject: Re: ........GUNS----->Please read this
Uh Oh....here it comes
--- In az_vjc@y..., Fred <fredtj@h...> wrote:
> Mmmmm, unless they've changed a law or two in the last couple of
years,
> when I checked last, it *IS* illegal to threaten to use of firearm,
even
> if it's ok to use the firmarm (that is shoot someone) for that
event. .
> It's not, of course, illegal to use the firearm to protect a third
party
> from certain activities, but it is (or was) illegal to threaten to
do
> so. . It's also illegal to shoot someone with the intent to wound,
even
> if it was legal to use deadly force (ie shooting someone) to
prevent
> the event. Lastly, this state also had a "fleeing felon" law that
makes
> it illegal for a civilian (ie non police) to shot a person fleeing
the
> scene regardless of what that person may have done. Anyways, this
is how
> it was couple or so years ago.
>
> :)
> Fred
>
> JW wrote:
>
> >No probably about it... if these guys had continued to threaten
Randy's wife
> >and children with a deadly weapon (the vehicle), Randy would have
been
> >within his legal rights to use deadly force to stop the driver.
> >
> >Hopefully, Tom will speak out on this thread, but, having just
taken a CCW
> >class this topic is fresh in my mind.
> >It is legal to display and threaten to use (in Arizona anyway) a
weapon to
> >protect a third party (in this case, Randy's family) from deadly
force. It
> >would have been legal for me or anyone else to protect Randy's
family as
> >well.
> >
> >Scott has touched on a number of great points (kudos Scott).
> >
> >There was a time when I would have argued that having a weapon is
just plain
> >not needed since statistically, you will probably never have
occasion to use
> >it to protect yourself...
> >
> >When the Indian gas station attendant died by being shot dead two
blocks
> >from my house in Mesa at the gas station that I go to twice a
week... and I
> >was going there to get gas just after he was shot and I saw the
police just
> >pulling up... my mind was changed forever.
> >
> >If I had been at the gas station 5 minutes earlier, I would have
been there
> >at the time of the shooting. Had I been there, and had to stand
idly by and
> >watch a man get shot to death; it would have caused me no end of
grief.
> >
> >I signed up for a concealed carry class and purchased my .45 sig a
few days
> >later.
> >
> >I hope that I never need to use my weapon... but if I ever
encounter a
> >situation where I need it, I will not hesitate a nanosecond to use
it.
> >
> >Kind Regards,
> >
> >Joe West
> >
> >PS. I joined the NRA to support their efforts to help ensure our
second
> >amendment rights are never violated by our own government... I
guess this
> >makes me a red-neck engineering geek. <grin>
> >
> >
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Scott Kruize [mailto:scottkruize@e...]
> >>Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:19 PM
> >>To: Siade, Randy; 'Nick'; az_vjc@y...; sinclare_jon
> >>Subject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
> >>
> >>
> >>Good point. In this scenario you probably were within your
> >>legal rights to
> >>protect your family from harm. Had they proceeded to try to
> >>run over your
> >>kids I doubt there is a jury anywhere (except maybe in
> >>California) that
> >>wouldn't acquit you.
> >>
> >>These are the types of scenarios that never show up in the
propaganda
> >>statistics put out by the Gun Control people. They like to only
show
> >>information regarding actual shootings of children, etc
> >>wihtout including
> >>the number of lives that are saved evey year by guns that are
> >>never even
> >>fired. But again, this is another debate.
> >>
> >>Scott K
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Siade, Randy [mailto:randy.siade@u...]
> >>Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:08 PM
> >>To: 'Nick'; az_vjc@y...; sinclare_jon
> >>Subject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
> >>
> >>
> >>Here is a true story at the coves. I took my wife and kids to
> >>the first
> >>cover for some recreation swimming and fishing. My kids are
> >>in the water
> >>playing with my wife close by when these drunk guys in a jeep
> >>come down the
> >>big hill and want to travel through the water where my kids
> >>are playing.
> >>They tell my wife to move the kids out of the way or they
> >>will run them
> >>over. My wife stepped in between them and the kids. They
> >>start yelling and
> >>moving forward. In the mean time I had pulled my 9mm out
> >>walked up to them
> >>and they yelled at me to get my wife and kids out of the way
> >>or they where
> >>going to run them over. I calmly pulled my 9mm out and told
> >>them the "I have
> >>a 9mm says you don't". They decided to go around another way.
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Nick [mailto:nnote@a...]
> >>Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:18 PM
> >>To: az_vjc@y...; sinclare_jon
> >>Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
> >>
> >>
> >>More than once while wheeling I've come across a group of ATF
> >>people, you
> >>know, smoking drinking and shooting guns. It makes me
> >>nervous as hell and I
> >>do plan on getting my own gun to carry someday.
> >>There was an article in the paper the other day about this.
> >>The author was
> >>writing that he always carried his gun at night but on this
> >>particular night
> >>he wasn't. He got cut off by a driver and when he gave the
> >>guy the finger,
> >>the other driver flashed a gun at him. He said that in
> >>reallity he was glad
> >>he had forgotten his gun that day because the situation could
> >>have very
> >>easily escalated into someone getting shot. It's just
> >>another interesting
> >>view of what may happen. If those ATF people had seen a gun
> >>on me it could
> >>have frightened them into pointing theirs at me.
> >>On the other hand, when I went hiking into four peaks a
> >>couple of weekends
> >>ago, I had a shotgun with me, and it made me feel more
> >>secure. Not for
> >>people but because it is a prime bear habitat.
> >>Nick
> >>
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: "sinclare_jon" <sinclare_jon@y...>
> >>To: <az_vjc@y...>
> >>Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:03 PM
> >>Subject: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
> >>
> >>
> >>>what do you all think?
> >>>I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel
> >>>
> >>alone and
> >>
> >>>I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and take
> >>>pictures.
> >>>I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but the
> >>>last guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. His
> >>>point is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.
> >>>
> >>>So the question is: What do you carry and where?
> >>>
> >>>thanks
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >>>
> >>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
37468 From: sinanturel <sinanturel@y...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:40pm
Subject: Re: Any word on that girl who was hurt out at Chiva Falls this past weekend?
There is/was a theard on another board, about a girl/woman lossing
some fingers in a roll over/tip over .
But the loacatin was not clear to me, but close to CHIxxxx .
Sinan
--- In az_vjc@y..., "David R. W. Withers" <dr_ww@h...> wrote:
> Inform us all please
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fred [mailto:fredtj@h...]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:26 PM
> To: jeeperaz
> Cc: az_vjc@y...
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Any word on that girl who was hurt out at
Chiva
> Falls this past weekend?
>
>
> Never heard anything that happened. What was it. A wheel'n accident
?
>
> Fred
>
> jeeperaz wrote:
>
> >Just curious if anyone knows how she is doing.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
37469 From: Siade, Randy <randy.siade@u...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:40pm
Subject: RE: Re: ........GUNS----->Please read this
As for myself I have been trained on firearms for many years. That is why
when I approached their vehicle I did not allow them to see the weapon until
I knew that I was going to have to display it. This action did not allow
them time to pull a weapon and if they had I would have shot to kill no
questions asked.
-----Original Message-----
From: jaylalib [mailto:jaylalib@h...]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 2:09 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: ........GUNS----->Please read this
First let me say Randy that if I thought my family was in danger, I
would do what ever it took to protect them,
It may have been what was necessary to get them to leave you and your
kids alone. But what if one of "them" had a gun and decided to bring
it into the equation.
I owned a p89 9mm for years, until I moved in with my wife now and
her children. And now we have my son. I have been debating about
getting another one.
Food for thought....
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Siade, Randy" <randy.siade@u...> wrote:
> Here is a true story at the coves. I took my wife and kids to the
first
> cover for some recreation swimming and fishing. My kids are in the
water
> playing with my wife close by when these drunk guys in a jeep come
down the
> big hill and want to travel through the water where my kids are
playing.
> They tell my wife to move the kids out of the way or they will run
them
> over. My wife stepped in between them and the kids. They start
yelling and
> moving forward. In the mean time I had pulled my 9mm out walked up
to them
> and they yelled at me to get my wife and kids out of the way or
they where
> going to run them over. I calmly pulled my 9mm out and told them
the "I have
> a 9mm says you don't". They decided to go around another way.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nick [mailto:nnote@a...]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:18 PM
> To: az_vjc@y...; sinclare_jon
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
>
>
> More than once while wheeling I've come across a group of ATF
people, you
> know, smoking drinking and shooting guns. It makes me nervous as
hell and I
> do plan on getting my own gun to carry someday.
> There was an article in the paper the other day about this. The
author was
> writing that he always carried his gun at night but on this
particular night
> he wasn't. He got cut off by a driver and when he gave the guy the
finger,
> the other driver flashed a gun at him. He said that in reallity he
was glad
> he had forgotten his gun that day because the situation could have
very
> easily escalated into someone getting shot. It's just another
interesting
> view of what may happen. If those ATF people had seen a gun on me
it could
> have frightened them into pointing theirs at me.
> On the other hand, when I went hiking into four peaks a couple of
weekends
> ago, I had a shotgun with me, and it made me feel more secure. Not
for
> people but because it is a prime bear habitat.
> Nick
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "sinclare_jon" <sinclare_jon@y...>
> To: <az_vjc@y...>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:03 PM
> Subject: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
>
>
> > what do you all think?
> > I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel alone
and
> > I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and take
> > pictures.
> > I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but the
> > last guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. His
> > point is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.
> >
> > So the question is: What do you carry and where?
> >
> > thanks
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
37470 From: rlpeckii <rlpii@q...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:43pm
Subject: Re: ........GUNS----->Please read this
Jon,
If you do decide to carry a firearm, get one that you are comfortable
with, get as much training as possible, _KNOW_ that you can use it if
necessary (only you can answer that question), and pray you _NEVER_
have to use it. (IMVHO)
Good Luck,
rlp
74 CJ-5
--- In az_vjc@y..., "sinclare_jon" <sinclare_jon@y...> wrote:
> what do you all think?
> I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel alone
and
> I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and take
> pictures.
> I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but the
> last guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. His
> point is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.
>
> So the question is: What do you carry and where?
>
> thanks
37471 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:47pm
Subject: RE: Axle Alley trip leader needed
Chris....don't feel special....I'm trying to figure out how I got tossed into this group outing too! LOL Geez....ya spend a few wrenching sessions with Scott and look where it lands you! I don't know....I'm still making payments on my Jeep! LOL
Stu
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@mac.com]
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 11:50 PM
To: Bill Mish
Cc: AZ_VJC
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Axle Alley trip leader needed
Yup, definately the driver in my case. I need more stick time before I tackle the really tough trails. The Jeep is probably ready though.
Chris K
http://www.arizonatj.com
On Monday, December 17, 2001, at 11:49 PM, Bill Mish wrote:
What's your vehicle specs?
If a TJ like Scott's can make it, surely your Jeep can.....Well, OK, TJ's are limited by their drivers, I've seen Doug B do things that might make Scott wet his pants......
Hehehe, Scott's sleeping now, that's how I'm getting away with harassing him so much without him responding.
Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Krieg<>color>
To: Bill Mish<>color>
Cc: AZ_VJC<>color>
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 11:21 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Axle Alley trip leader needed
Hey, how did I get in that. Axle Alley is a bit extreme for me still. I'm still learning the ropes.
Chris K
On Monday, December 17, 2001, at 11:16 PM, Bill Mish wrote:
Sounds like an AZX4W run. Sure you guys are up for it?
Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Kruize
To: AZ_VJC
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 10:42 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Axle Alley trip leader needed
Some of us got the bug to run Axle Alley but we need a trip leader. Sometime between Christmas and New Years would be best.
From what I've heard we need at least 33's (35+ preferable) , traction devices front and rear, and a 4:1 low range (or auto tranny). A winch is required and you should also carry spare axleshafts, ujoints, etc and the necessary parts to repair them. Oh yeah, don't forget your cajones.
So far Flexxy, Joe W, Chris K, Stu O, and myself have expressed interest in going if we can find a trip leader and an acceptable date for all. (Stu, I don't think there will be any strippers so quit thinking like that ;) Joe W, leave your thesis on impedance at home, I don't want to have to pry you and Stu apart.
Who wants to be the "Big Dog" and show us the way?
Thanks in advance,
Scott
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37472 From: Siade, Randy <randy.siade@u...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:45pm
Subject: RE: ........GUNS----->Please read this
You are correct in part. You may only use deadly force if a threat of life to you or a third party exists. If the perpetrator is fleeing there is no threat. In my case I was within my legal right to stop the threat.
-----Original Message-----
From: Fred [mailto:fredtj@home.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 2:36 PM
To: joew@avanticorp.com
Cc: 'Scott Kruize'; Siade, Randy; 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; 'sinclare_jon'
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
Mmmmm, unless they've changed a law or two in the last couple of years, when I checked last, it *IS* illegal to threaten to use of firearm, even if it's ok to use the firmarm (that is shoot someone) for that event. . It's not, of course, illegal to use the firearm to protect a third party from certain activities, but it is (or was) illegal to threaten to do so. . It's also illegal to shoot someone with the intent to wound, even if it was legal to use deadly force (ie shooting someone) to prevent the event. Lastly, this state also had a "fleeing felon" law that makes it illegal for a civilian (ie non police) to shot a person fleeing the scene regardless of what that person may have done. Anyways, this is how it was couple or so years ago.
:)
Fred
JW wrote:
No probably about it... if these guys had continued to threaten Randy's wifeand children with a deadly weapon (the vehicle), Randy would have beenwithin his legal rights to use deadly force to stop the driver.Hopefully, Tom will speak out on this thread, but, having just taken a CCWclass this topic is fresh in my mind.It is legal to display and threaten to use (in Arizona anyway) a weapon toprotect a third party (in this case, Randy's family) from deadly force. Itwould have been legal for me or anyone else to protect Randy's family aswell.Scott has touched on a number of great points (kudos Scott).There was a time when I would have argued that having a weapon is just plainnot needed since statistically, you will probably never have occasion to useit to protect yourself...When the Indian gas station attendant died by being shot dead two blocksfrom my house in Mesa at the gas station that I
go to twice a week... and Iwas going there to get gas just after he was shot and I saw the police justpulling up... my mind was changed forever.If I had been at the gas station 5 minutes earlier, I would have been thereat the time of the shooting. Had I been there, and had to stand idly by andwatch a man get shot to death; it would have caused me no end of grief.I signed up for a concealed carry class and purchased my .45 sig a few dayslater.I hope that I never need to use my weapon... but if I ever encounter asituation where I need it, I will not hesitate a nanosecond to use it.Kind Regards,Joe WestPS. I joined the NRA to support their efforts to help ensure our secondamendment rights are never violated by our own government... I guess thismakes me a red-neck engineering geek.
-----Original Message-----From: Scott Kruize [maiilto:scottkruize@earthlink.net]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:19 PMTo: Siade, Randy; 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisGood point. In this scenario you probably were within yourlegal rights toprotect your family from harm. Had they proceeded to try torun over yourkids I doubt there is a jury anywhere (except maybe inCalifornia) thatwouldn't acquit you.These are the types of scenarios that never show up in the propagandastatistics put out by the Gun Control people. They like to only showinformation regarding actual shootings of children, etcwihtout includingthe number of lives that are saved evey year by guns that arenever evenfired. But again, this is another debate.Scott K-----Original Message-----From: Siade, Randy [mailtoo:randy.siade@unisys.com]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:08 PMTo: 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisHere is a true story at the coves. I took my wife and kids tothe firstcover for some recreation swimming and fishing. My kids arein the waterplaying with my wife close by when these drunk guys in a jeepcome down thebig hill and want to travel through the water where my kidsare playing.They tell my wife to move the kids out of the way or theywill run themover. My wife stepped in between them and the kids. Theystart yelling andmoving forward. In the mea
n time I had pulled my 9mm outwalked up to themand they yelled at me to get my wife and kids out of the wayor they wheregoing to run them over. I calmly pulled my 9mm out and toldthem the "I havea 9mm says you don't". They decided to go around another way.-----Original Message-----From: Nick [mailto:nnote@azboss..net]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:18 PMTo: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisMore than once while wheeling I've come across a group of ATFpeople, youknow, smoking drinking and shooting guns. It makes menervous as hell and Ido plan on getting my own gun to carry someday.There was an article in the paper the other day about this.The author waswriting that he always carried h
is gun at night but on thisparticular nighthe wasn't. He got cut off by a driver and when he gave theguy the finger,the other driver flashed a gun at him. He said that inreallity he was gladhe had forgotten his gun that day because the situation couldhave veryeasily escalated into someone getting shot. It's justanother interestingview of what may happen. If those ATF people had seen a gunon me it couldhave frightened them into pointing theirs at me.On the other hand, when I went hiking into four peaks acouple of weekendsago, I had a shotgun with me, and it made me feel moresecure. Not forpeople but because it is a prime bear habitat.Nick----- Original Message -----From: "sinclare_jon" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:03 PMSubject: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
what do you all think?I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel
alone and
I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and takepictures.I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but thelast guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. Hispoint is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.So the question is: What do you carry and where?thanksYour use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
37473 From: Fred <fredtj@h...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 2:07pm
Subject: Re: ........GUNS----->Please read this
The only point that I was making, specifically to what you stated below:
"
It is legal to display and threaten to use (in Arizona anyway)
"
is that it, at least didn't use to be, legally to *threaten* for use a firearm, not that you can't use it. :)
The biggest thing to remember, is that when a person shoots another person, one of those two has committed a very serious crime.
Cheers,
Fred
Siade, Randy wrote:
You are correct in part. You may only use deadly force if a threat of life to you or a third party exists. If the perpetrator is fleeing there is no threat. In my case I was within my legal right to stop the threat.
-----Original Message-----
From: Fred [mailto:fredtj@home.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 2:36 PM
To: joew@avanticorp.com
Cc: 'Scott Kruize'; Siade, Randy; 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; 'sinclare_jon'
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
Mmmmm, unless they've changed a law or two in the last couple of years, when I checked last, it *IS* illegal to threaten to use of firearm, even if it's ok to use the firmarm (that is shoot someone) for that event. . It's not, of course, illegal to use the firearm to protect a third party from certain activities, but it is (or was) illegal to threaten to do so. . It's also illegal to shoot someone with the intent to wound, even if it was legal to use deadly force (ie shooting someone) to prevent the event. Lastly, this state also had a "fleeing felon" law that makes it illegal for a civilian (ie non police) to shot a person fleeing the scene regardless of what that person may have done. Anyways, this is how it was couple or so years ago.
:)
Fred
JW wrote:
No probably about it... if these guys had continued to threaten Randy's wifeand children with a deadly weapon (the vehicle), Randy would have beenwithin his legal rights to use deadly force to stop the driver.Hopefully, Tom will speak out on this thread, but, having just taken a CCWclass this topic is fresh in my mind.It is legal to display and threaten to use (in Arizona anyway) a weapon toprotect a third party (in this case, Randy's family) from deadly force. Itwould have been legal for me or anyone else to protect Randy's family aswell.Scott has touched on a number of great points (kudos Scott).There was a time when I would have argued that having a weapon is just plainnot needed since statistically, you will probably never have occasion to useit to protect yourself...When the Indian gas station attendant died by being shot dead two blocksfrom my house in Mesa at the gas station th
at I go to twice a week... and Iwas going there to get gas just after he was shot and I saw the police justpulling up... my mind was changed forever.If I had been at the gas station 5 minutes earlier, I would have been thereat the time of the shooting. Had I been there, and had to stand idly by andwatch a man get shot to death; it would have caused me no end of grief.I signed up for a concealed carry class and purchased my .45 sig a few dayslater.I hope that I never need to use my weapon... but if I ever encounter asituation where I need it, I will not hesitate a nanosecond to use it.Kind Regards,Joe WestPS. I joined the NRA to support their efforts to help ensure our secondamendment rights are never violated by our own government... I guess thismakes me a red-neck engineering geek.
-----Original Message-----From: Scott Kruize [maiilto:scottkruize@earthlink.net]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:19 PMTo: Siade, Randy; 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisGood point. In this scenario you probably were within yourlegal rights toprotect your family from harm. Had they proceeded to try torun over yourkids I doubt there is a jury anywhere (except maybe inCalifornia) thatwouldn't acquit you.These are the types of scenarios that never show up in the propagandastatistics put out by the Gun Control people. They like to only showinformation regarding actual shootings of children, etcwihtout includingthe number of lives that are saved evey year by guns that arenever evenfired. But again, this is another debate.Scott K-----Original Message-----From: Siade, Randy [mailtoo:randy.siade@unisys.com]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:08 PMTo: 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisHere is a true story at the coves. I took my wife and kids tothe firstcover for some recreation swimming and fishing. My kids arein the waterplaying with my wife close by when these drunk guys in a jeepcome down thebig hill and want to travel through the water where my kidsare playing.They tell my wife to move the kids out of the way or theywill run themover. My wife stepped in between them and the kids. Theystart yelling andmoving forward. In the mean time I had pulled my 9mm outwalked up to themand they yelled at me to get my wife and kids out of the wayor they wheregoing to run them over. I calmly pulled my 9mm out and toldthem the "I havea 9mm says you don't". They decided to go around another way.-----Original Message-----From: Nick [mailto:nnote@azboss..net]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:18 PMTo: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisMore than once while wheeling I've come across a group of ATFpeople, youknow, smoking drinking and shooting guns. It makes menervous as hell and Ido plan on getting my own gun to carry someday.There was an article in the paper the other day about this.The author waswriting that he a
lways carried his gun at night but on thisparticular nighthe wasn't. He got cut off by a driver and when he gave theguy the finger,the other driver flashed a gun at him. He said that inreallity he was gladhe had forgotten his gun that day because the situation couldhave veryeasily escalated into someone getting shot. It's justanother interestingview of what may happen. If those ATF people had seen a gunon me it couldhave frightened them into pointing theirs at me.On the other hand, when I went hiking into four peaks acouple of weekendsago, I had a shotgun with me, and it made me feel moresecure. Not forpeople but because it is a prime bear habitat.Nick----- Original Message -----From: "sinclare_jon" To: <
az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:03 PMSubject: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
what do you all think?I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel
alone and
I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and takepictures.I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but thelast guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. Hispoint is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.So the question is: What do you carry and where?thanksYour use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service .
37474 From: JW <joew@a...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 2:01pm
Subject: RE: ........GUNS----->Please read this
Fred,
There are circumstances where it is legal to threaten use of a firearm and there are circumstances where it is illegal to threaten use of a firearm. The bottom line is;
If it would be legal for you to USE your weapon, it is legal for you to DRAW your weapon.
If you are in a situation where it would be illegal for you to use your weapon, it is illegal for you to draw your weapon.
It is illegal for instance, for you to draw your weapon and threaten someone who is about to shoot your dog.
It is legal for instance, for you to draw your weapon and threaten someone who is about to shoot your child.
There is a GREAT book entitled something like "Arizona Gun Laws" or some such title (I have it at home not at work). It is a great paperback book which I would recommend to everyone who carries a gun in Arizona.
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: Fred [mailto:fredtj@home.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 2:36 PM
To: joew@avanticorp.com
Cc: 'Scott Kruize'; 'Siade, Randy'; 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; 'sinclare_jon'
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
Mmmmm, unless they've changed a law or two in the last couple of years, when I checked last, it *IS* illegal to threaten to use of firearm, even if it's ok to use the firmarm (that is shoot someone) for that event. . It's not, of course, illegal to use the firearm to protect a third party from certain activities, but it is (or was) illegal to threaten to do so. . It's also illegal to shoot someone with the intent to wound, even if it was legal to use deadly force (ie shooting someone) to prevent the event. Lastly, this state also had a "fleeing felon" law that makes it illegal for a civilian (ie non police) to shot a person fleeing the scene regardless of what that person may have done. Anyways, this is how it was couple or so years ago.
:)
Fred
JW wrote:
No probably about it... if these guys had continued to threaten Randy's wifeand children with a deadly weapon (the vehicle), Randy would have beenwithin his legal rights to use deadly force to stop the driver.Hopefully, Tom will speak out on this thread, but, having just taken a CCWclass this topic is fresh in my mind.It is legal to display and threaten to use (in Arizona anyway) a weapon toprotect a third party (in this case, Randy's family) from deadly force. Itwould have been legal for me or anyone else to protect Randy's family aswell.Scott has touched on a number of great points (kudos Scott).There was a time when I would have argued that having a weapon is just plainnot needed since statistically, you will probably never have occasion to useit to protect yourself...When the Indian gas station attendant died by being shot dead two blocksfrom my house in Mesa at the gas station that I
go to twice a week... and Iwas going there to get gas just after he was shot and I saw the police justpulling up... my mind was changed forever.If I had been at the gas station 5 minutes earlier, I would have been thereat the time of the shooting. Had I been there, and had to stand idly by andwatch a man get shot to death; it would have caused me no end of grief.I signed up for a concealed carry class and purchased my .45 sig a few dayslater.I hope that I never need to use my weapon... but if I ever encounter asituation where I need it, I will not hesitate a nanosecond to use it.Kind Regards,Joe WestPS. I joined the NRA to support their efforts to help ensure our secondamendment rights are never violated by our own government... I guess thismakes me a red-neck engineering geek.
-----Original Message-----From: Scott Kruize [mailto:scottkruize@earthlink.net]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:19 PMTo: Siade, Randy; 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisGood point. In this scenario you probably were within yourlegal rights toprotect your family from harm. Had they proceeded to try torun over yourkids I doubt there is a jury anywhere (except maybe inCalifornia) thatwouldn't acquit you.These are the types of scenarios that never show up in the propagandastatistics put out by the Gun Control people. They like to only showinformation regarding actual shootings of children, etcwihtout includingthe number of lives that are saved evey year by guns that arenever evenfired. But again, this is another debate.Scott K-----Original Message-----From: Siade, Randy [mailto:randy.siade@unisys.com]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:08 PMTo: 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisHere is a true story at the coves. I took my wife and kids tothe firstcover for some recreation swimming and fishing. My kids arein the waterplaying with my wife close by when these drunk guys in a jeepcome down thebig hill and want to travel through the water where my kidsare playing.They tell my wife to move the kids out of the way or theywill run themover. My wife stepped in between them and the kids. Theystart yelling andmoving forward. In the mea
n time I had pulled my 9mm outwalked up to themand they yelled at me to get my wife and kids out of the wayor they wheregoing to run them over. I calmly pulled my 9mm out and toldthem the "I havea 9mm says you don't". They decided to go around another way.-----Original Message-----From: Nick [mailto:nnote@azboss.net]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:18 PMTo: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisMore than once while wheeling I've come across a group of ATFpeople, youknow, smoking drinking and shooting guns. It makes menervous as hell and Ido plan on getting my own gun to carry someday.There was an article in the paper the other day about this.The author waswriting that he always carried h
is gun at night but on thisparticular nighthe wasn't. He got cut off by a driver and when he gave theguy the finger,the other driver flashed a gun at him. He said that inreallity he was gladhe had forgotten his gun that day because the situation couldhave veryeasily escalated into someone getting shot. It's justanother interestingview of what may happen. If those ATF people had seen a gunon me it couldhave frightened them into pointing theirs at me.On the other hand, when I went hiking into four peaks acouple of weekendsago, I had a shotgun with me, and it made me feel moresecure. Not forpeople but because it is a prime bear habitat.Nick----- Original Message -----From: "sinclare_jon" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:03 PMSubject: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
what do you all think?I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel
alone and
I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and takepictures.I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but thelast guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. Hispoint is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.So the question is: What do you carry and where?thanksYour use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
37475 From: Siade, Randy <randy.siade@u...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 2:06pm
Subject: RE: ........GUNS----->Please read this
Yes I have the book and you are correct.
-----Original Message-----
From: JW [mailto:joew@avanticorp.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 3:02 PM
To: 'Fred'
Cc: 'Scott Kruize'; Siade, Randy; 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; 'sinclare_jon'
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
Fred,
There are circumstances where it is legal to threaten use of a firearm and there are circumstances where it is illegal to threaten use of a firearm. The bottom line is;
If it would be legal for you to USE your weapon, it is legal for you to DRAW your weapon.
If you are in a situation where it would be illegal for you to use your weapon, it is illegal for you to draw your weapon.
It is illegal for instance, for you to draw your weapon and threaten someone who is about to shoot your dog.
It is legal for instance, for you to draw your weapon and threaten someone who is about to shoot your child.
There is a GREAT book entitled something like "Arizona Gun Laws" or some such title (I have it at home not at work). It is a great paperback book which I would recommend to everyone who carries a gun in Arizona.
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: Fred [mailto:fredtj@home.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 2:36 PM
To: joew@avanticorp.com
Cc: 'Scott Kruize'; 'Siade, Randy'; 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; 'sinclare_jon'
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
Mmmmm, unless they've changed a law or two in the last couple of years, when I checked last, it *IS* illegal to threaten to use of firearm, even if it's ok to use the firmarm (that is shoot someone) for that event. . It's not, of course, illegal to use the firearm to protect a third party from certain activities, but it is (or was) illegal to threaten to do so. . It's also illegal to shoot someone with the intent to wound, even if it was legal to use deadly force (ie shooting someone) to prevent the event. Lastly, this state also had a "fleeing felon" law that makes it illegal for a civilian (ie non police) to shot a person fleeing the scene regardless of what that person may have done. Anyways, this is how it was couple or so years ago.
:)
Fred
JW wrote:
No probably about it... if these guys had continued to threaten Randy's wifeand children with a deadly weapon (the vehicle), Randy would have beenwithin his legal rights to use deadly force to stop the driver.Hopefully, Tom will speak out on this thread, but, having just taken a CCWclass this topic is fresh in my mind.It is legal to display and threaten to use (in Arizona anyway) a weapon toprotect a third party (in this case, Randy's family) from deadly force. Itwould have been legal for me or anyone else to protect Randy's family aswell.Scott has touched on a number of great points (kudos Scott).There was a time when I would have argued that having a weapon is just plainnot needed since statistically, you will probably never have occasion to useit to protect yourself...When the Indian gas station attendant died by being shot dead t!
wo blocksfrom my house in Mesa at the gas stat!
ion that I
go to twice a week... and Iwas going there to get gas just after he was shot and I saw the police justpulling up... my mind was changed forever.If I had been at the gas station 5 minutes earlier, I would have been thereat the time of the shooting. Had I been there, and had to stand idly by andwatch a man get shot to death; it would have caused me no end of grief.I signed up for a concealed carry class and purchased my .45 sig a few dayslater.I hope that I never need to use my weapon... but if I ever encounter asituation where I need it, I will not hesitate a nanosecond to use it.Kind Regards,Joe WestPS. I joined the NRA to support their efforts to help ensure our secondamendment rights are never violated by our own government... I guess thismakes me a red-neck engineering geek.
-----Original Message-----From: Scott Kruize [mailto:scottkruize@earthlink.net]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:19 PMTo: Siade, Randy; 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisGood point. In this scenario you probably were within yourlegal rights toprotect your family from harm. Had they proceeded to try torun over yourkids I doubt there is a jury anywhere (except maybe inCalifornia) thatwouldn't acquit you.These are the types of scenarios that never show up in the propagandastatistics put out by the Gun Control people. They like to only showinformation regarding actual shootings of children, etcwihtout includingthe number of lives that are saved eve!
y !
year by guns that arenever evenfired. But again, this is another debate.Scott K-----Original Message-----From: Siade, Randy [mailto:randy.siade@unisys.com]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:08 PMTo: 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisHere is a true story at the coves. I took my wife and kids tothe firstcover for some recreation swimming and fishing. My kids arein the waterplaying with my wife close by when these drunk guys in a jeepcome down thebig hill and want to travel through the water where my kidsare playing.They tell my wife to move the kids out of the way or theywill run themover. My wife stepped in between them and the kids. Theystart yelling andmoving forward. In the mea
n time I had pulled my 9mm outwalked up to themand they yelled at me to get my wife and kids out of the wayor they wheregoing to run them over. I calmly pulled my 9mm out and toldthem the "I havea 9mm says you don't". They decided to go around another way.-----Original Message-----From: Nick [mailto:nnote@azboss.net]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:18 PMTo: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisMore than once while wheeling I've come across a group of ATFpeople, youknow, smoking drinking and shooting guns. It makes menervous as hell and Ido plan on getting my own gun to carry someday.There was an article in the paper the other day about this.The author waswriting that he always carried h
is gun at night but on thisparticular nighthe wasn't. He got cut off by a driver and when he gave theguy the finger,the other driver flashed a gun at him. He said that inreallity he was gladhe had forgotten his gun that day because the situation couldhave veryeasily escalated into someone getting shot. It's justanother interestingview of what may happen. If those ATF people had seen a gunon me it couldhave frightened them into pointing theirs at me.On the other hand, when I went hiking into four peaks acouple of weekendsago, I had a shotgun with me, and it made me feel moresecure. Not forpeople but because it is a prime bear habitat.Nick----- Original Message -----From: "sinclare_jon" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:03 PMSubject: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
what do you all think?I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel
alone and
I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and takepictures.I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but thelast guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. Hispoint is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.So the question is: What do you carry and where?thanksYour use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
37476 From: Siade, Randy <randy.siade@u...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 2:11pm
Subject: RE: ........GUNS----->Please read this
-----Original Message-----
From: Fred [mailto:fredtj@home.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 3:07 PM
To: Siade, Randy
Cc: joew@avanticorp.com; 'Scott Kruize'; 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; 'sinclare_jon'
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
The only point that I was making, specifically to what you stated below:
"
It is legal to display and threaten to use (in Arizona anyway)[Siade, Randy] It is legal, in the state of Arizona read Arizona gun laws, to threaten
the use of deadly force if the threat is used to protect life of yourself or a third party.
"
is that it, at least didn't use to be, legally to *threaten* for use a firearm, not that you can't use it. :)
The biggest thing to remember, is that when a person shoots another person, one of those two has committed a very serious crime.
[Siade, Randy] True but it is not always the one doing the shooting that has committed the crime.
Cheers,
Fred
Siade, Randy wrote:
You are correct in part. You may only use deadly force if a threat of life to you or a third party exists. If the perpetrator is fleeing there is no threat. In my case I was within my legal right to stop the threat.
-----Original Message-----
From: Fred [mailto:fredtj@home.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 2:36 PM
To: joew@avanticorp.com
Cc: 'Scott Kruize'; Siade, Randy; 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; 'sinclare_jon'
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
Mmmmm, unless they've changed a law or two in the last couple of years, when I checked last, it *IS* illegal to threaten to use of firearm, even if it's ok to use the firmarm (that is shoot someone) for that event. . It's not, of course, illegal to use the firearm to protect a third party from certain activities, but it is (or was) illegal to threaten to do so. . It's also illegal to shoot someone with the intent to wound, even if it was legal to use deadly force (ie shooting someone) to prevent the event. Lastly, this state also had a "fleeing felon" law that makes it illegal for a civilian (ie non police) to shot a person fleeing the scene regardless of what that person may have done. Anyways, this is how it was couple or so years ago.
:)
Fred
JW wrote:
No probably about it... if these guys had continued to threaten Randy's wifeand children with a deadly weapon (the vehicle), Randy would have beenwithin his legal rights to use deadly force to stop the driver.Hopefully, Tom will speak out on this thread, but, having just taken a CCWclass this topic is fresh in my mind.It is legal to display and threaten to use (in Arizona anyway) a weapon toprotect a third party (in this case, Randy's family) from deadly force. Itwould have been legal for me or anyone else to protect Randy's family aswell.Scott has touched on a number of great points (kudos Scott).There was a time when I would have argued that having a weapon is just plainnot needed since statistically, you will probably never have occasion to useit to protect yourself...When the Indian gas station attendant died by being shot dead two blocksfrom my house in Mesa at the gas station th
at I go to twice a week... and Iwas going there to get gas just after he was shot and I saw the police justpulling up... my mind was changed forever.If I had been at the gas station 5 minutes earlier, I would have been thereat the time of the shooting. Had I been there, and had to stand idly by andwatch a man get shot to death; it would have caused me no end of grief.I signed up for a concealed carry class and purchased my .45 sig a few dayslater.I hope that I never need to use my weapon... but if I ever encounter asituation where I need it, I will not hesitate a nanosecond to use it.Kind Regards,Joe WestPS. I joined the NRA to support their efforts to help ensure our secondamendment rights are never violated by our own government... I guess thismakes me a red-neck engineering geek.
-----Original Message-----From: Scott Kruize [maiilto:scottkruize@earthlink.net]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:19 PMTo: Siade, Randy; 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisGood point. In this scenario you probably were within yourlegal rights toprotect your family from harm. Had they proceeded to try torun over yourkids I doubt there is a jury anywhere (except maybe inCalifornia) thatwouldn't acquit you.These are the types of scenarios that never show up in the propagandastatistics put out by the Gun Control people. They like to only showinformation regarding actual shootings of children, etcwihtout includingthe number of lives that are saved evey year by guns that arenever evenfired. But again, this is another debate.Scott K-----Original Message-----From: Siade, Randy [mailtoo:randy.siade@unisys.com]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:08 PMTo: 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisHere is a true story at the coves. I took my wife and kids tothe firstcover for some recreation swimming and fishing. My kids arein the waterplaying with my wife close by when these drunk guys in a jeepcome down thebig hill and want to travel through the water where my kidsare playing.They tell my wife to move the kids out of the way or theywill run themover. My wife stepped in between them and the kids. Theystart yelling andmoving forward. In the mean time I had pulled my 9mm outwalked up to themand they yelled at me to get my wife and kids out of the wayor they wheregoing to run them over. I calmly pulled my 9mm out and toldthem the "I havea 9mm says you don't". They decided to go around another way.-----Original Message-----From: Nick [mailto:nnote@azboss..net]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:18 PMTo: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisMore than once while wheeling I've come across a group of ATFpeople, youknow, smoking drinking and shooting guns. It makes menervous as hell and Ido plan on getting my own gun to carry someday.There was an article in the paper the other day about this.The author waswriting that he a
lways carried his gun at night but on thisparticular nighthe wasn't. He got cut off by a driver and when he gave theguy the finger,the other driver flashed a gun at him. He said that inreallity he was gladhe had forgotten his gun that day because the situation couldhave veryeasily escalated into someone getting shot. It's justanother interestingview of what may happen. If those ATF people had seen a gunon me it couldhave frightened them into pointing theirs at me.On the other hand, when I went hiking into four peaks acouple of weekendsago, I had a shotgun with me, and it made me feel moresecure. Not forpeople but because it is a prime bear habitat.Nick----- Original Message -----From: "sinclare_jon" To: <
az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:03 PMSubject: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
what do you all think?I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel
alone and
I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and takepictures.I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but thelast guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. Hispoint is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.So the question is: What do you carry and where?thanksYour use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service .
37452 From: Scott Kruize <scottkruize@e...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 0:19pm
Subject: RE: ........GUNS----->Please read this
Good point. In this scenario you probably were within your legal rights to
protect your family from harm. Had they proceeded to try to run over your
kids I doubt there is a jury anywhere (except maybe in California) that
wouldn't acquit you.
These are the types of scenarios that never show up in the propaganda
statistics put out by the Gun Control people. They like to only show
information regarding actual shootings of children, etc wihtout including
the number of lives that are saved evey year by guns that are never even
fired. But again, this is another debate.
Scott K
-----Original Message-----
From: Siade, Randy [mailto:randy.siade@u...]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:08 PM
To: 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jon
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
Here is a true story at the coves. I took my wife and kids to the first
cover for some recreation swimming and fishing. My kids are in the water
playing with my wife close by when these drunk guys in a jeep come down the
big hill and want to travel through the water where my kids are playing.
They tell my wife to move the kids out of the way or they will run them
over. My wife stepped in between them and the kids. They start yelling and
moving forward. In the mean time I had pulled my 9mm out walked up to them
and they yelled at me to get my wife and kids out of the way or they where
going to run them over. I calmly pulled my 9mm out and told them the "I have
a 9mm says you don't". They decided to go around another way.
-----Original Message-----
From: Nick [mailto:nnote@a...]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:18 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jon
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
More than once while wheeling I've come across a group of ATF people, you
know, smoking drinking and shooting guns. It makes me nervous as hell and I
do plan on getting my own gun to carry someday.
There was an article in the paper the other day about this. The author was
writing that he always carried his gun at night but on this particular night
he wasn't. He got cut off by a driver and when he gave the guy the finger,
the other driver flashed a gun at him. He said that in reallity he was glad
he had forgotten his gun that day because the situation could have very
easily escalated into someone getting shot. It's just another interesting
view of what may happen. If those ATF people had seen a gun on me it could
have frightened them into pointing theirs at me.
On the other hand, when I went hiking into four peaks a couple of weekends
ago, I had a shotgun with me, and it made me feel more secure. Not for
people but because it is a prime bear habitat.
Nick
----- Original Message -----
From: "sinclare_jon" <sinclare_jon@y...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:03 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
> what do you all think?
> I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel alone and
> I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and take
> pictures.
> I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but the
> last guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. His
> point is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.
>
> So the question is: What do you carry and where?
>
> thanks
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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37453 From: Fred <fredtj@h...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 0:26pm
Subject: Re: Any word on that girl who was hurt out at Chiva Falls this past weekend?
Never heard anything that happened. What was it. A wheel'n accident ?
Fred
jeeperaz wrote:
>Just curious if anyone knows how she is doing.
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
37454 From: David R. W. Withers <dr_ww@h...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 0:24pm
Subject: RE: Any word on that girl who was hurt out at Chiva Falls this past weekend?
Inform us all please
-----Original Message-----
From: Fred [mailto:fredtj@h...]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:26 PM
To: jeeperaz
Cc: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Any word on that girl who was hurt out at Chiva
Falls this past weekend?
Never heard anything that happened. What was it. A wheel'n accident ?
Fred
jeeperaz wrote:
>Just curious if anyone knows how she is doing.
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
37455 From: JW <joew@a...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 0:42pm
Subject: RE: ........GUNS----->Please read this
Hi Jon,
I carry a .45 sig concealed and I carry it with me at all times.
One of our members Tom LaFrance, teaches concealed carry... I would highly
recommend
that you take a concealed carry class. Even if you don't carry concealed,
the training
is outstanding.
Kind Regards,
Joe West
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sinclare_jon [mailto:sinclare_jon@y...]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:03 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
>
>
> what do you all think?
> I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel alone and
> I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and take
> pictures.
> I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but the
> last guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. His
> point is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.
>
> So the question is: What do you carry and where?
>
> thanks
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
37456 From: jetowle2000 <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 0:48pm
Subject: Re: Macromotive Discount Question
Who, what is the persons name, that you talked to?
They honor the club discount at the stores.
....Tony from ORU are you listening now. I know you listen in....
We have been through this several times before, how frustrating. If
you would like to have it from the store you can get it. It is up to
you.
If I can help let me know.
--James
--- In az_vjc@y..., "jeepfanatic97" <itsajeepthing@a...> wrote:
> I'm looking to buy some stuff off of Macromotive.com but when i
> called them they told me to use the discount i have to do everthing
> online ........when i'm online i don't see any where to put our
club
> acct # in at......Can some one please help me out on this.
>
> Thanks
> Rob
> 97 TJ
37457 From: <fls82@a...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 8:00am
Subject: Re: GUNS->Please read ... Bull - oney!
ATF?...
IF they are doing something illegal, and not just something that makes you feel uncomfortable or nervous, get the plate number and report it ...
It IS your DUTY to do so...
Editor "glad" that He didn't have "his gun" that night?... Oh Really?
Editor was "cut off" and then "gave the guy the finger"...
"other driver flashed gun"
Did the "good editor" report that (to the police)? Nooooo, I'll Bet he didn't!!
What was the "good editor" going to do, if he DID have "his gun" ??
I have been carrying a pistol legally and illegally since before 1972 ...
I have been in this state (Arizona) for 21 years now ... L.A. Calif. for 25 years ...
and N.Y. before that ...
In this state you can get a CCW, "Concealed Carry" permit ...
Not hard to do and not terribly expensive ...
(you may also LEGALLY have a firearm on your person without one.)
You are also given SOME instruction as to when and where you can carry and if necessary, when you "MAY" be JUSTIFIED in using your firearm ...
Your BEST move is ALWAYS avoiding situations ... Drive around or walk away ...
Mine is like any other insurance policy ...
I pray that I will never have to use it ... but, I do want to be protected.
Now, if no one had "guns" and the "ATF" were pounding on a vehicle with pipes and baseball bats instead, would you be any LESS intimidated?... HELL NO !!
They could be doing that on a city street on Friday night, in YOUR neighborhood!!
And when they get thirsty from all of this "allowable" behavior, what keeps them from walking right into YOUR house?
Surely not the police .... At least not in time to do much more than to take a report!
It is not up to me to say if firearms are good or bad.
I'm just glad that I have the "INALIENABLE RIGHT" to make that choice.
And yes, I SHALL also protect my neighbor, even if he or she does care to personally own a gun.
The best "insurance" that I ever got, was a week at GUNSITE in Paulden Arizona ...
Better training than in The Marine Corps!!
(My wife also took the class, not all that strenuous!)
You just got a nickel's worth.
Jim B.
Flag.,AZ
YOU, are the weapon.
The tools that you choose,
only make you more efficient.
(an old DI said that.)
37458 From: JW <joew@a...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:02pm
Subject: RE: ........GUNS----->Please read this
No probably about it... if these guys had continued to threaten Randy's wife
and children with a deadly weapon (the vehicle), Randy would have been
within his legal rights to use deadly force to stop the driver.
Hopefully, Tom will speak out on this thread, but, having just taken a CCW
class this topic is fresh in my mind.
It is legal to display and threaten to use (in Arizona anyway) a weapon to
protect a third party (in this case, Randy's family) from deadly force. It
would have been legal for me or anyone else to protect Randy's family as
well.
Scott has touched on a number of great points (kudos Scott).
There was a time when I would have argued that having a weapon is just plain
not needed since statistically, you will probably never have occasion to use
it to protect yourself...
When the Indian gas station attendant died by being shot dead two blocks
from my house in Mesa at the gas station that I go to twice a week... and I
was going there to get gas just after he was shot and I saw the police just
pulling up... my mind was changed forever.
If I had been at the gas station 5 minutes earlier, I would have been there
at the time of the shooting. Had I been there, and had to stand idly by and
watch a man get shot to death; it would have caused me no end of grief.
I signed up for a concealed carry class and purchased my .45 sig a few days
later.
I hope that I never need to use my weapon... but if I ever encounter a
situation where I need it, I will not hesitate a nanosecond to use it.
Kind Regards,
Joe West
PS. I joined the NRA to support their efforts to help ensure our second
amendment rights are never violated by our own government... I guess this
makes me a red-neck engineering geek. <grin>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Kruize [mailto:scottkruize@e...]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:19 PM
> To: Siade, Randy; 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jon
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
>
>
> Good point. In this scenario you probably were within your
> legal rights to
> protect your family from harm. Had they proceeded to try to
> run over your
> kids I doubt there is a jury anywhere (except maybe in
> California) that
> wouldn't acquit you.
>
> These are the types of scenarios that never show up in the propaganda
> statistics put out by the Gun Control people. They like to only show
> information regarding actual shootings of children, etc
> wihtout including
> the number of lives that are saved evey year by guns that are
> never even
> fired. But again, this is another debate.
>
> Scott K
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Siade, Randy [mailto:randy.siade@u...]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:08 PM
> To: 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jon
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
>
>
> Here is a true story at the coves. I took my wife and kids to
> the first
> cover for some recreation swimming and fishing. My kids are
> in the water
> playing with my wife close by when these drunk guys in a jeep
> come down the
> big hill and want to travel through the water where my kids
> are playing.
> They tell my wife to move the kids out of the way or they
> will run them
> over. My wife stepped in between them and the kids. They
> start yelling and
> moving forward. In the mean time I had pulled my 9mm out
> walked up to them
> and they yelled at me to get my wife and kids out of the way
> or they where
> going to run them over. I calmly pulled my 9mm out and told
> them the "I have
> a 9mm says you don't". They decided to go around another way.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nick [mailto:nnote@a...]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:18 PM
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jon
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
>
>
> More than once while wheeling I've come across a group of ATF
> people, you
> know, smoking drinking and shooting guns. It makes me
> nervous as hell and I
> do plan on getting my own gun to carry someday.
> There was an article in the paper the other day about this.
> The author was
> writing that he always carried his gun at night but on this
> particular night
> he wasn't. He got cut off by a driver and when he gave the
> guy the finger,
> the other driver flashed a gun at him. He said that in
> reallity he was glad
> he had forgotten his gun that day because the situation could
> have very
> easily escalated into someone getting shot. It's just
> another interesting
> view of what may happen. If those ATF people had seen a gun
> on me it could
> have frightened them into pointing theirs at me.
> On the other hand, when I went hiking into four peaks a
> couple of weekends
> ago, I had a shotgun with me, and it made me feel more
> secure. Not for
> people but because it is a prime bear habitat.
> Nick
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "sinclare_jon" <sinclare_jon@y...>
> To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:03 PM
> Subject: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
>
>
> > what do you all think?
> > I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel
> alone and
> > I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and take
> > pictures.
> > I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but the
> > last guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. His
> > point is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.
> >
> > So the question is: What do you carry and where?
> >
> > thanks
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
37459 From: jaylalib <jaylalib@h...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:08pm
Subject: Re: ........GUNS----->Please read this
First let me say Randy that if I thought my family was in danger, I
would do what ever it took to protect them,
It may have been what was necessary to get them to leave you and your
kids alone. But what if one of "them" had a gun and decided to bring
it into the equation.
I owned a p89 9mm for years, until I moved in with my wife now and
her children. And now we have my son. I have been debating about
getting another one.
Food for thought....
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Siade, Randy" <randy.siade@u...> wrote:
> Here is a true story at the coves. I took my wife and kids to the
first
> cover for some recreation swimming and fishing. My kids are in the
water
> playing with my wife close by when these drunk guys in a jeep come
down the
> big hill and want to travel through the water where my kids are
playing.
> They tell my wife to move the kids out of the way or they will run
them
> over. My wife stepped in between them and the kids. They start
yelling and
> moving forward. In the mean time I had pulled my 9mm out walked up
to them
> and they yelled at me to get my wife and kids out of the way or
they where
> going to run them over. I calmly pulled my 9mm out and told them
the "I have
> a 9mm says you don't". They decided to go around another way.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nick [mailto:nnote@a...]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:18 PM
> To: az_vjc@y...; sinclare_jon
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
>
>
> More than once while wheeling I've come across a group of ATF
people, you
> know, smoking drinking and shooting guns. It makes me nervous as
hell and I
> do plan on getting my own gun to carry someday.
> There was an article in the paper the other day about this. The
author was
> writing that he always carried his gun at night but on this
particular night
> he wasn't. He got cut off by a driver and when he gave the guy the
finger,
> the other driver flashed a gun at him. He said that in reallity he
was glad
> he had forgotten his gun that day because the situation could have
very
> easily escalated into someone getting shot. It's just another
interesting
> view of what may happen. If those ATF people had seen a gun on me
it could
> have frightened them into pointing theirs at me.
> On the other hand, when I went hiking into four peaks a couple of
weekends
> ago, I had a shotgun with me, and it made me feel more secure. Not
for
> people but because it is a prime bear habitat.
> Nick
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "sinclare_jon" <sinclare_jon@y...>
> To: <az_vjc@y...>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:03 PM
> Subject: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
>
>
> > what do you all think?
> > I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel alone
and
> > I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and take
> > pictures.
> > I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but the
> > last guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. His
> > point is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.
> >
> > So the question is: What do you carry and where?
> >
> > thanks
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
37460 From: Nick <nnote@a...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:15pm
Subject: How many hoses off evap can.
Can someone with a yj tell me how many hoses they have coming off their charcol canister? I want to make sure I'm not missing one. I don't see how those emissions people clamped one off...the hoses are stiff plastic?!?!
Nick
37461 From: my1stjeep <my1stjeep@e...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:15pm
Subject: Re: ........GUNS----->Please read this
Can't say what for sure is the right call, obviously it worked out,
but I think I have to agree, if one of those drunks had pulled a gun
the next picture could have been very different. Thinking that having
the kids get out of the water would have been smarter, then when the
mess up and cry for help you just sit back and say I don't want to
chance getting run over. :o)~
Going back to lurking now.
Chris
"AzA"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- In az_vjc@y..., "jaylalib" <jaylalib@h...> wrote:
> First let me say Randy that if I thought my family was in danger, I
> would do what ever it took to protect them,
>
> It may have been what was necessary to get them to leave you and
your
> kids alone. But what if one of "them" had a gun and decided to
bring
> it into the equation.
>
> I owned a p89 9mm for years, until I moved in with my wife now and
> her children. And now we have my son. I have been debating about
> getting another one.
>
> Food for thought....
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Siade, Randy" <randy.siade@u...> wrote:
> > Here is a true story at the coves. I took my wife and kids to the
> first
> > cover for some recreation swimming and fishing. My kids are in the
> water
> > playing with my wife close by when these drunk guys in a jeep come
> down the
> > big hill and want to travel through the water where my kids are
> playing.
> > They tell my wife to move the kids out of the way or they will run
> them
> > over. My wife stepped in between them and the kids. They start
> yelling and
> > moving forward. In the mean time I had pulled my 9mm out walked up
> to them
> > and they yelled at me to get my wife and kids out of the way or
> they where
> > going to run them over. I calmly pulled my 9mm out and told them
> the "I have
> > a 9mm says you don't". They decided to go around another way.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Nick [mailto:nnote@a...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:18 PM
> > To: az_vjc@y...; sinclare_jon
> > Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
> >
> >
> > More than once while wheeling I've come across a group of ATF
> people, you
> > know, smoking drinking and shooting guns. It makes me nervous as
> hell and I
> > do plan on getting my own gun to carry someday.
> > There was an article in the paper the other day about this. The
> author was
> > writing that he always carried his gun at night but on this
> particular night
> > he wasn't. He got cut off by a driver and when he gave the guy
the
> finger,
> > the other driver flashed a gun at him. He said that in reallity
he
> was glad
> > he had forgotten his gun that day because the situation could have
> very
> > easily escalated into someone getting shot. It's just another
> interesting
> > view of what may happen. If those ATF people had seen a gun on me
> it could
> > have frightened them into pointing theirs at me.
> > On the other hand, when I went hiking into four peaks a couple of
> weekends
> > ago, I had a shotgun with me, and it made me feel more secure.
Not
> for
> > people but because it is a prime bear habitat.
> > Nick
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "sinclare_jon" <sinclare_jon@y...>
> > To: <az_vjc@y...>
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:03 PM
> > Subject: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
> >
> >
> > > what do you all think?
> > > I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel
alone
> and
> > > I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and take
> > > pictures.
> > > I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but
the
> > > last guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. His
> > > point is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.
> > >
> > > So the question is: What do you carry and where?
> > >
> > > thanks
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
37462 From: Nick <nnote@a...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:18pm
Subject: Re: GUNS->Please read ... Bull - oney!
Ya, the editor called the police and reported it. He did escalate it and glad he didn't have his gun because he was scared he may have taken it further. I was just mentioning the article, not making an opinion about the situation.
Nick
----- Original Message -----
From: fls82@aol.com
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] GUNS->Please read ... Bull - oney!
ATF?...
IF they are doing something illegal, and not just something that makes you feel uncomfortable or nervous, get the plate number and report it ...
It IS your DUTY to do so...
Editor "glad" that He didn't have "his gun" that night?... Oh Really?
Editor was "cut off" and then "gave the guy the finger"...
"other driver flashed gun"
Did the "good editor" report that (to the police)? Nooooo, I'll Bet he didn't!!
What was the "good editor" going to do, if he DID have "his gun" ??
I have been carrying a pistol legally and illegally since before 1972 ...
I have been in this state (Arizona) for 21 years now ... L.A. Calif. for 25 years ...
and N.Y. before that ...
In this state you can get a CCW, "Concealed Carry" permit ...
Not hard to do and not terribly expensive ...
(you may also LEGALLY have a firearm on your person without one.)
You are also given SOME instruction as to when and where you can carry and if necessary, when you "MAY" be JUSTIFIED in using your firearm ...
Your BEST move is ALWAYS avoiding situations ... Drive around or walk away ...
Mine is like any other insurance policy ...
I pray that I will never have to use it ... but, I do want to be protected.
Now, if no one had "guns" and the "ATF" were pounding on a vehicle with pipes and baseball bats instead, would you be any LESS intimidated?... HELL NO !!
They could be doing that on a city street on Friday night, in YOUR neighborhood!!
And when they get thirsty from all of this "allowable" behavior, what keeps them from walking right into YOUR house?
Surely not the police .... At least not in time to do much more than to take a report!
It is not up to me to say if firearms are good or bad.
I'm just glad that I have the "INALIENABLE RIGHT" to make that choice.
And yes, I SHALL also protect my neighbor, even if he or she does care to personally own a gun.
The best "insurance" that I ever got, was a week at GUNSITE in Paulden Arizona ...
Better training than in The Marine Corps!!
(My wife also took the class, not all that strenuous!)
You just got a nickel's worth.
Jim B.
Flag.,AZ
YOU, are the weapon.
The tools that you choose,
only make you more efficient.
(an old DI said that.)
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
37463 From: my1stjeep <my1stjeep@e...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:20pm
Subject: [MS] Black ZJ in Surprise on Sunday
Tried to wave, not sure if you saw us, White Lifted XJ right be the
entrance to Home Depot on Bell Road. Anyway here is another wave.
Chris
"AzA"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
37464 From: JW <joew@a...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:20pm
Subject: RE: ........GUNS----->Please read this
Naw... I'm but a mere novice when it comes to ballistics. Scott Kruize has
probably forgotten more than I know.
Having fired both revolvers and automatics though... I'd have to disagree
with his preference for a revolver on the trail.
A good semi-automatic pistol and a couple of extra magazines and you'll be
in much better shape if you face a very large 4 legged critter. I don't
care how fast you are with a revolver speed loader... I can get off MANY
more rounds on my semi-automatic than you can with a revolver.
Joe
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Wixom [mailto:certifiedinsp@m...]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:55 PM
> To: sinclare_jon; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; Scott Kruize
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
>
>
> Hey Joe W. I think we can start a whole discussion on ballistics now.
>
> Mike Wixom
> 85 CJ-7
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott Kruize" <scottkruize@e...>
> To: "sinclare_jon" <sinclare_jon@y...>; <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:34 PM
> Subject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
>
>
> > Jon,
> >
> > I like to carry a .357 Magnum on the trail. It doesn't come
> out of the
> Jeep
> > unless its needed. It's not a good idea to brandish it
> unless your life is
> > threatened. I personally don't like wear it on my side
> either. I have
> found
> > that it tends to intimidate the other unarmed people out there.
> >
> > For a trail gun I would recommend a revolver, either .357
> Magnum or .44
> > Magnum. Its a much more reliable weapon IMO and typically
> has much more
> > knock down power than an automatic. Automatics (9mm,
> .40S&W, and .45)
> > typically are great for 2 legged critters but are
> underpowered for an
> > encounter with a 4 legged creature. I no longer carry in
> town, but when I
> > did I preferred my 9mm to the .357 Magnum for that type of use.
> >
> > I've wheeled for almost 8 years in Arizona and carried my
> .357 Magnum most
> > of the time. I've never needed it but you never know. There
> is alot of
> hype
> > and fear out there that I think is unwarranted. Don't let
> yourself get
> > carried away on the fear bandwagon. Use a little common
> sense. The odds
> are
> > that you'll never need a weapon. Of course it's also nice
> to know its
> there
> > just in case.
> >
> > Scott K
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: sinclare_jon [mailto:sinclare_jon@y...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:03 PM
> > To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
> >
> >
> > what do you all think?
> > I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel
> alone and
> > I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and take
> > pictures.
> > I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but the
> > last guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. His
> > point is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.
> >
> > So the question is: What do you carry and where?
> >
> > thanks
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
37465 From: Fred <fredtj@h...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:36pm
Subject: Re: ........GUNS----->Please read this
Mmmmm, unless they've changed a law or two in the last couple of years, when I checked last, it *IS* illegal to threaten to use of firearm, even if it's ok to use the firmarm (that is shoot someone) for that event. . It's not, of course, illegal to use the firearm to protect a third party from certain activities, but it is (or was) illegal to threaten to do so. . It's also illegal to shoot someone with the intent to wound, even if it was legal to use deadly force (ie shooting someone) to prevent the event. Lastly, this state also had a "fleeing felon" law that makes it illegal for a civilian (ie non police) to shot a person fleeing the scene regardless of what that person may have done. Anyways, this is how it was couple or so years ago.
:)
Fred
JW wrote:
No probably about it... if these guys had continued to threaten Randy's wifeand children with a deadly weapon (the vehicle), Randy would have beenwithin his legal rights to use deadly force to stop the driver.Hopefully, Tom will speak out on this thread, but, having just taken a CCWclass this topic is fresh in my mind.It is legal to display and threaten to use (in Arizona anyway) a weapon toprotect a third party (in this case, Randy's family) from deadly force. Itwould have been legal for me or anyone else to protect Randy's family aswell.Scott has touched on a number of great points (kudos Scott).There was a time when I would have argued that having a weapon is just plainnot needed since statistically, you will probably never have occasion to useit to protect yourself...When the Indian gas station attendant died by being shot dead two blocksfrom my house in Mesa at the gas station that I
go to twice a week... and Iwas going there to get gas just after he was shot and I saw the police justpulling up... my mind was changed forever.If I had been at the gas station 5 minutes earlier, I would have been thereat the time of the shooting. Had I been there, and had to stand idly by andwatch a man get shot to death; it would have caused me no end of grief.I signed up for a concealed carry class and purchased my .45 sig a few dayslater.I hope that I never need to use my weapon... but if I ever encounter asituation where I need it, I will not hesitate a nanosecond to use it.Kind Regards,Joe WestPS. I joined the NRA to support their efforts to help ensure our secondamendment rights are never violated by our own government... I guess thismakes me a red-neck engineering geek.
-----Original Message-----From: Scott Kruize [mailto:scottkruize@earthlink.net]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:19 PMTo: Siade, Randy; 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisGood point. In this scenario you probably were within yourlegal rights toprotect your family from harm. Had they proceeded to try torun over yourkids I doubt there is a jury anywhere (except maybe inCalifornia) thatwouldn't acquit you.These are the types of scenarios that never show up in the propagandastatistics put out by the Gun Control people. They like to only showinformation regarding actual shootings of children, etcwihtout includingthe number of lives that are saved evey year by guns that arenever evenfired. But again, this is another debate.Scott K-----Original Message-----From: Siade, Randy [mailto:randy.siade@unisys.com]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:08 PMTo: 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisHere is a true story at the coves. I took my wife and kids tothe firstcover for some recreation swimming and fishing. My kids arein the waterplaying with my wife close by when these drunk guys in a jeepcome down thebig hill and want to travel through the water where my kidsare playing.They tell my wife to move the kids out of the way or theywill run themover. My wife stepped in between them and the kids. Theystart yelling andmoving forward. In the mea
n time I had pulled my 9mm outwalked up to themand they yelled at me to get my wife and kids out of the wayor they wheregoing to run them over. I calmly pulled my 9mm out and toldthem the "I havea 9mm says you don't". They decided to go around another way.-----Original Message-----From: Nick [mailto:nnote@azboss.net]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:18 PMTo: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisMore than once while wheeling I've come across a group of ATFpeople, youknow, smoking drinking and shooting guns. It makes menervous as hell and Ido plan on getting my own gun to carry someday.There was an article in the paper the other day about this.The author waswriting that he always carried h
is gun at night but on thisparticular nighthe wasn't. He got cut off by a driver and when he gave theguy the finger,the other driver flashed a gun at him. He said that inreallity he was gladhe had forgotten his gun that day because the situation couldhave veryeasily escalated into someone getting shot. It's justanother interestingview of what may happen. If those ATF people had seen a gunon me it couldhave frightened them into pointing theirs at me.On the other hand, when I went hiking into four peaks acouple of weekendsago, I had a shotgun with me, and it made me feel moresecure. Not forpeople but because it is a prime bear habitat.Nick----- Original Message -----From: "sinclare_jon" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:03 PMSubject: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
what do you all think?I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel
alone and
I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and takepictures.I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but thelast guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. Hispoint is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.So the question is: What do you carry and where?thanksYour use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
37466 From: jeepin_in_az <jeepin_in_az@y...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:32pm
Subject: Fire Extinquisher
Just got back from Sam's Club (I gotta stay away from there!), and
picked up a 2 pack of 2.5 lbs fire extinquishers for $17. That is
pretty cheap from what I have seen. I am going to wrap mine up and
put it under the tree, "To: Mike, From: Santa!"
Mike Baney
37467 From: jaylalib <jaylalib@h...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:33pm
Subject: Re: ........GUNS----->Please read this
Uh Oh....here it comes
--- In az_vjc@y..., Fred <fredtj@h...> wrote:
> Mmmmm, unless they've changed a law or two in the last couple of
years,
> when I checked last, it *IS* illegal to threaten to use of firearm,
even
> if it's ok to use the firmarm (that is shoot someone) for that
event. .
> It's not, of course, illegal to use the firearm to protect a third
party
> from certain activities, but it is (or was) illegal to threaten to
do
> so. . It's also illegal to shoot someone with the intent to wound,
even
> if it was legal to use deadly force (ie shooting someone) to
prevent
> the event. Lastly, this state also had a "fleeing felon" law that
makes
> it illegal for a civilian (ie non police) to shot a person fleeing
the
> scene regardless of what that person may have done. Anyways, this
is how
> it was couple or so years ago.
>
> :)
> Fred
>
> JW wrote:
>
> >No probably about it... if these guys had continued to threaten
Randy's wife
> >and children with a deadly weapon (the vehicle), Randy would have
been
> >within his legal rights to use deadly force to stop the driver.
> >
> >Hopefully, Tom will speak out on this thread, but, having just
taken a CCW
> >class this topic is fresh in my mind.
> >It is legal to display and threaten to use (in Arizona anyway) a
weapon to
> >protect a third party (in this case, Randy's family) from deadly
force. It
> >would have been legal for me or anyone else to protect Randy's
family as
> >well.
> >
> >Scott has touched on a number of great points (kudos Scott).
> >
> >There was a time when I would have argued that having a weapon is
just plain
> >not needed since statistically, you will probably never have
occasion to use
> >it to protect yourself...
> >
> >When the Indian gas station attendant died by being shot dead two
blocks
> >from my house in Mesa at the gas station that I go to twice a
week... and I
> >was going there to get gas just after he was shot and I saw the
police just
> >pulling up... my mind was changed forever.
> >
> >If I had been at the gas station 5 minutes earlier, I would have
been there
> >at the time of the shooting. Had I been there, and had to stand
idly by and
> >watch a man get shot to death; it would have caused me no end of
grief.
> >
> >I signed up for a concealed carry class and purchased my .45 sig a
few days
> >later.
> >
> >I hope that I never need to use my weapon... but if I ever
encounter a
> >situation where I need it, I will not hesitate a nanosecond to use
it.
> >
> >Kind Regards,
> >
> >Joe West
> >
> >PS. I joined the NRA to support their efforts to help ensure our
second
> >amendment rights are never violated by our own government... I
guess this
> >makes me a red-neck engineering geek. <grin>
> >
> >
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Scott Kruize [mailto:scottkruize@e...]
> >>Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:19 PM
> >>To: Siade, Randy; 'Nick'; az_vjc@y...; sinclare_jon
> >>Subject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
> >>
> >>
> >>Good point. In this scenario you probably were within your
> >>legal rights to
> >>protect your family from harm. Had they proceeded to try to
> >>run over your
> >>kids I doubt there is a jury anywhere (except maybe in
> >>California) that
> >>wouldn't acquit you.
> >>
> >>These are the types of scenarios that never show up in the
propaganda
> >>statistics put out by the Gun Control people. They like to only
show
> >>information regarding actual shootings of children, etc
> >>wihtout including
> >>the number of lives that are saved evey year by guns that are
> >>never even
> >>fired. But again, this is another debate.
> >>
> >>Scott K
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Siade, Randy [mailto:randy.siade@u...]
> >>Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:08 PM
> >>To: 'Nick'; az_vjc@y...; sinclare_jon
> >>Subject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
> >>
> >>
> >>Here is a true story at the coves. I took my wife and kids to
> >>the first
> >>cover for some recreation swimming and fishing. My kids are
> >>in the water
> >>playing with my wife close by when these drunk guys in a jeep
> >>come down the
> >>big hill and want to travel through the water where my kids
> >>are playing.
> >>They tell my wife to move the kids out of the way or they
> >>will run them
> >>over. My wife stepped in between them and the kids. They
> >>start yelling and
> >>moving forward. In the mean time I had pulled my 9mm out
> >>walked up to them
> >>and they yelled at me to get my wife and kids out of the way
> >>or they where
> >>going to run them over. I calmly pulled my 9mm out and told
> >>them the "I have
> >>a 9mm says you don't". They decided to go around another way.
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Nick [mailto:nnote@a...]
> >>Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:18 PM
> >>To: az_vjc@y...; sinclare_jon
> >>Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
> >>
> >>
> >>More than once while wheeling I've come across a group of ATF
> >>people, you
> >>know, smoking drinking and shooting guns. It makes me
> >>nervous as hell and I
> >>do plan on getting my own gun to carry someday.
> >>There was an article in the paper the other day about this.
> >>The author was
> >>writing that he always carried his gun at night but on this
> >>particular night
> >>he wasn't. He got cut off by a driver and when he gave the
> >>guy the finger,
> >>the other driver flashed a gun at him. He said that in
> >>reallity he was glad
> >>he had forgotten his gun that day because the situation could
> >>have very
> >>easily escalated into someone getting shot. It's just
> >>another interesting
> >>view of what may happen. If those ATF people had seen a gun
> >>on me it could
> >>have frightened them into pointing theirs at me.
> >>On the other hand, when I went hiking into four peaks a
> >>couple of weekends
> >>ago, I had a shotgun with me, and it made me feel more
> >>secure. Not for
> >>people but because it is a prime bear habitat.
> >>Nick
> >>
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: "sinclare_jon" <sinclare_jon@y...>
> >>To: <az_vjc@y...>
> >>Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:03 PM
> >>Subject: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
> >>
> >>
> >>>what do you all think?
> >>>I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel
> >>>
> >>alone and
> >>
> >>>I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and take
> >>>pictures.
> >>>I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but the
> >>>last guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. His
> >>>point is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.
> >>>
> >>>So the question is: What do you carry and where?
> >>>
> >>>thanks
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >>>
> >>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
37468 From: sinanturel <sinanturel@y...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:40pm
Subject: Re: Any word on that girl who was hurt out at Chiva Falls this past weekend?
There is/was a theard on another board, about a girl/woman lossing
some fingers in a roll over/tip over .
But the loacatin was not clear to me, but close to CHIxxxx .
Sinan
--- In az_vjc@y..., "David R. W. Withers" <dr_ww@h...> wrote:
> Inform us all please
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fred [mailto:fredtj@h...]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:26 PM
> To: jeeperaz
> Cc: az_vjc@y...
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Any word on that girl who was hurt out at
Chiva
> Falls this past weekend?
>
>
> Never heard anything that happened. What was it. A wheel'n accident
?
>
> Fred
>
> jeeperaz wrote:
>
> >Just curious if anyone knows how she is doing.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
37469 From: Siade, Randy <randy.siade@u...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:40pm
Subject: RE: Re: ........GUNS----->Please read this
As for myself I have been trained on firearms for many years. That is why
when I approached their vehicle I did not allow them to see the weapon until
I knew that I was going to have to display it. This action did not allow
them time to pull a weapon and if they had I would have shot to kill no
questions asked.
-----Original Message-----
From: jaylalib [mailto:jaylalib@h...]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 2:09 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: ........GUNS----->Please read this
First let me say Randy that if I thought my family was in danger, I
would do what ever it took to protect them,
It may have been what was necessary to get them to leave you and your
kids alone. But what if one of "them" had a gun and decided to bring
it into the equation.
I owned a p89 9mm for years, until I moved in with my wife now and
her children. And now we have my son. I have been debating about
getting another one.
Food for thought....
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Siade, Randy" <randy.siade@u...> wrote:
> Here is a true story at the coves. I took my wife and kids to the
first
> cover for some recreation swimming and fishing. My kids are in the
water
> playing with my wife close by when these drunk guys in a jeep come
down the
> big hill and want to travel through the water where my kids are
playing.
> They tell my wife to move the kids out of the way or they will run
them
> over. My wife stepped in between them and the kids. They start
yelling and
> moving forward. In the mean time I had pulled my 9mm out walked up
to them
> and they yelled at me to get my wife and kids out of the way or
they where
> going to run them over. I calmly pulled my 9mm out and told them
the "I have
> a 9mm says you don't". They decided to go around another way.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nick [mailto:nnote@a...]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:18 PM
> To: az_vjc@y...; sinclare_jon
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
>
>
> More than once while wheeling I've come across a group of ATF
people, you
> know, smoking drinking and shooting guns. It makes me nervous as
hell and I
> do plan on getting my own gun to carry someday.
> There was an article in the paper the other day about this. The
author was
> writing that he always carried his gun at night but on this
particular night
> he wasn't. He got cut off by a driver and when he gave the guy the
finger,
> the other driver flashed a gun at him. He said that in reallity he
was glad
> he had forgotten his gun that day because the situation could have
very
> easily escalated into someone getting shot. It's just another
interesting
> view of what may happen. If those ATF people had seen a gun on me
it could
> have frightened them into pointing theirs at me.
> On the other hand, when I went hiking into four peaks a couple of
weekends
> ago, I had a shotgun with me, and it made me feel more secure. Not
for
> people but because it is a prime bear habitat.
> Nick
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "sinclare_jon" <sinclare_jon@y...>
> To: <az_vjc@y...>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:03 PM
> Subject: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
>
>
> > what do you all think?
> > I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel alone
and
> > I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and take
> > pictures.
> > I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but the
> > last guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. His
> > point is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.
> >
> > So the question is: What do you carry and where?
> >
> > thanks
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
37470 From: rlpeckii <rlpii@q...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:43pm
Subject: Re: ........GUNS----->Please read this
Jon,
If you do decide to carry a firearm, get one that you are comfortable
with, get as much training as possible, _KNOW_ that you can use it if
necessary (only you can answer that question), and pray you _NEVER_
have to use it. (IMVHO)
Good Luck,
rlp
74 CJ-5
--- In az_vjc@y..., "sinclare_jon" <sinclare_jon@y...> wrote:
> what do you all think?
> I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel alone
and
> I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and take
> pictures.
> I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but the
> last guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. His
> point is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.
>
> So the question is: What do you carry and where?
>
> thanks
37471 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:47pm
Subject: RE: Axle Alley trip leader needed
Chris....don't feel special....I'm trying to figure out how I got tossed into this group outing too! LOL Geez....ya spend a few wrenching sessions with Scott and look where it lands you! I don't know....I'm still making payments on my Jeep! LOL
Stu
Stu Olson
www.stu-offroad.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Krieg [mailto:rv6a@mac.com]
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 11:50 PM
To: Bill Mish
Cc: AZ_VJC
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Axle Alley trip leader needed
Yup, definately the driver in my case. I need more stick time before I tackle the really tough trails. The Jeep is probably ready though.
Chris K
http://www.arizonatj.com
On Monday, December 17, 2001, at 11:49 PM, Bill Mish wrote:
What's your vehicle specs?
If a TJ like Scott's can make it, surely your Jeep can.....Well, OK, TJ's are limited by their drivers, I've seen Doug B do things that might make Scott wet his pants......
Hehehe, Scott's sleeping now, that's how I'm getting away with harassing him so much without him responding.
Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Krieg<>color>
To: Bill Mish<>color>
Cc: AZ_VJC<>color>
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 11:21 PM
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Axle Alley trip leader needed
Hey, how did I get in that. Axle Alley is a bit extreme for me still. I'm still learning the ropes.
Chris K
On Monday, December 17, 2001, at 11:16 PM, Bill Mish wrote:
Sounds like an AZX4W run. Sure you guys are up for it?
Bill Mish
1955 Willys CJ3B
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Kruize
To: AZ_VJC
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 10:42 PM
Subject: [az_vjc] Axle Alley trip leader needed
Some of us got the bug to run Axle Alley but we need a trip leader. Sometime between Christmas and New Years would be best.
From what I've heard we need at least 33's (35+ preferable) , traction devices front and rear, and a 4:1 low range (or auto tranny). A winch is required and you should also carry spare axleshafts, ujoints, etc and the necessary parts to repair them. Oh yeah, don't forget your cajones.
So far Flexxy, Joe W, Chris K, Stu O, and myself have expressed interest in going if we can find a trip leader and an acceptable date for all. (Stu, I don't think there will be any strippers so quit thinking like that ;) Joe W, leave your thesis on impedance at home, I don't want to have to pry you and Stu apart.
Who wants to be the "Big Dog" and show us the way?
Thanks in advance,
Scott
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.<>bigger>
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37472 From: Siade, Randy <randy.siade@u...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:45pm
Subject: RE: ........GUNS----->Please read this
You are correct in part. You may only use deadly force if a threat of life to you or a third party exists. If the perpetrator is fleeing there is no threat. In my case I was within my legal right to stop the threat.
-----Original Message-----
From: Fred [mailto:fredtj@home.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 2:36 PM
To: joew@avanticorp.com
Cc: 'Scott Kruize'; Siade, Randy; 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; 'sinclare_jon'
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
Mmmmm, unless they've changed a law or two in the last couple of years, when I checked last, it *IS* illegal to threaten to use of firearm, even if it's ok to use the firmarm (that is shoot someone) for that event. . It's not, of course, illegal to use the firearm to protect a third party from certain activities, but it is (or was) illegal to threaten to do so. . It's also illegal to shoot someone with the intent to wound, even if it was legal to use deadly force (ie shooting someone) to prevent the event. Lastly, this state also had a "fleeing felon" law that makes it illegal for a civilian (ie non police) to shot a person fleeing the scene regardless of what that person may have done. Anyways, this is how it was couple or so years ago.
:)
Fred
JW wrote:
No probably about it... if these guys had continued to threaten Randy's wifeand children with a deadly weapon (the vehicle), Randy would have beenwithin his legal rights to use deadly force to stop the driver.Hopefully, Tom will speak out on this thread, but, having just taken a CCWclass this topic is fresh in my mind.It is legal to display and threaten to use (in Arizona anyway) a weapon toprotect a third party (in this case, Randy's family) from deadly force. Itwould have been legal for me or anyone else to protect Randy's family aswell.Scott has touched on a number of great points (kudos Scott).There was a time when I would have argued that having a weapon is just plainnot needed since statistically, you will probably never have occasion to useit to protect yourself...When the Indian gas station attendant died by being shot dead two blocksfrom my house in Mesa at the gas station that I
go to twice a week... and Iwas going there to get gas just after he was shot and I saw the police justpulling up... my mind was changed forever.If I had been at the gas station 5 minutes earlier, I would have been thereat the time of the shooting. Had I been there, and had to stand idly by andwatch a man get shot to death; it would have caused me no end of grief.I signed up for a concealed carry class and purchased my .45 sig a few dayslater.I hope that I never need to use my weapon... but if I ever encounter asituation where I need it, I will not hesitate a nanosecond to use it.Kind Regards,Joe WestPS. I joined the NRA to support their efforts to help ensure our secondamendment rights are never violated by our own government... I guess thismakes me a red-neck engineering geek.
-----Original Message-----From: Scott Kruize [maiilto:scottkruize@earthlink.net]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:19 PMTo: Siade, Randy; 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisGood point. In this scenario you probably were within yourlegal rights toprotect your family from harm. Had they proceeded to try torun over yourkids I doubt there is a jury anywhere (except maybe inCalifornia) thatwouldn't acquit you.These are the types of scenarios that never show up in the propagandastatistics put out by the Gun Control people. They like to only showinformation regarding actual shootings of children, etcwihtout includingthe number of lives that are saved evey year by guns that arenever evenfired. But again, this is another debate.Scott K-----Original Message-----From: Siade, Randy [mailtoo:randy.siade@unisys.com]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:08 PMTo: 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisHere is a true story at the coves. I took my wife and kids tothe firstcover for some recreation swimming and fishing. My kids arein the waterplaying with my wife close by when these drunk guys in a jeepcome down thebig hill and want to travel through the water where my kidsare playing.They tell my wife to move the kids out of the way or theywill run themover. My wife stepped in between them and the kids. Theystart yelling andmoving forward. In the mea
n time I had pulled my 9mm outwalked up to themand they yelled at me to get my wife and kids out of the wayor they wheregoing to run them over. I calmly pulled my 9mm out and toldthem the "I havea 9mm says you don't". They decided to go around another way.-----Original Message-----From: Nick [mailto:nnote@azboss..net]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:18 PMTo: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisMore than once while wheeling I've come across a group of ATFpeople, youknow, smoking drinking and shooting guns. It makes menervous as hell and Ido plan on getting my own gun to carry someday.There was an article in the paper the other day about this.The author waswriting that he always carried h
is gun at night but on thisparticular nighthe wasn't. He got cut off by a driver and when he gave theguy the finger,the other driver flashed a gun at him. He said that inreallity he was gladhe had forgotten his gun that day because the situation couldhave veryeasily escalated into someone getting shot. It's justanother interestingview of what may happen. If those ATF people had seen a gunon me it couldhave frightened them into pointing theirs at me.On the other hand, when I went hiking into four peaks acouple of weekendsago, I had a shotgun with me, and it made me feel moresecure. Not forpeople but because it is a prime bear habitat.Nick----- Original Message -----From: "sinclare_jon" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:03 PMSubject: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
what do you all think?I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel
alone and
I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and takepictures.I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but thelast guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. Hispoint is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.So the question is: What do you carry and where?thanksYour use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
37473 From: Fred <fredtj@h...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 2:07pm
Subject: Re: ........GUNS----->Please read this
The only point that I was making, specifically to what you stated below:
"
It is legal to display and threaten to use (in Arizona anyway)
"
is that it, at least didn't use to be, legally to *threaten* for use a firearm, not that you can't use it. :)
The biggest thing to remember, is that when a person shoots another person, one of those two has committed a very serious crime.
Cheers,
Fred
Siade, Randy wrote:
You are correct in part. You may only use deadly force if a threat of life to you or a third party exists. If the perpetrator is fleeing there is no threat. In my case I was within my legal right to stop the threat.
-----Original Message-----
From: Fred [mailto:fredtj@home.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 2:36 PM
To: joew@avanticorp.com
Cc: 'Scott Kruize'; Siade, Randy; 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; 'sinclare_jon'
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
Mmmmm, unless they've changed a law or two in the last couple of years, when I checked last, it *IS* illegal to threaten to use of firearm, even if it's ok to use the firmarm (that is shoot someone) for that event. . It's not, of course, illegal to use the firearm to protect a third party from certain activities, but it is (or was) illegal to threaten to do so. . It's also illegal to shoot someone with the intent to wound, even if it was legal to use deadly force (ie shooting someone) to prevent the event. Lastly, this state also had a "fleeing felon" law that makes it illegal for a civilian (ie non police) to shot a person fleeing the scene regardless of what that person may have done. Anyways, this is how it was couple or so years ago.
:)
Fred
JW wrote:
No probably about it... if these guys had continued to threaten Randy's wifeand children with a deadly weapon (the vehicle), Randy would have beenwithin his legal rights to use deadly force to stop the driver.Hopefully, Tom will speak out on this thread, but, having just taken a CCWclass this topic is fresh in my mind.It is legal to display and threaten to use (in Arizona anyway) a weapon toprotect a third party (in this case, Randy's family) from deadly force. Itwould have been legal for me or anyone else to protect Randy's family aswell.Scott has touched on a number of great points (kudos Scott).There was a time when I would have argued that having a weapon is just plainnot needed since statistically, you will probably never have occasion to useit to protect yourself...When the Indian gas station attendant died by being shot dead two blocksfrom my house in Mesa at the gas station th
at I go to twice a week... and Iwas going there to get gas just after he was shot and I saw the police justpulling up... my mind was changed forever.If I had been at the gas station 5 minutes earlier, I would have been thereat the time of the shooting. Had I been there, and had to stand idly by andwatch a man get shot to death; it would have caused me no end of grief.I signed up for a concealed carry class and purchased my .45 sig a few dayslater.I hope that I never need to use my weapon... but if I ever encounter asituation where I need it, I will not hesitate a nanosecond to use it.Kind Regards,Joe WestPS. I joined the NRA to support their efforts to help ensure our secondamendment rights are never violated by our own government... I guess thismakes me a red-neck engineering geek.
-----Original Message-----From: Scott Kruize [maiilto:scottkruize@earthlink.net]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:19 PMTo: Siade, Randy; 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisGood point. In this scenario you probably were within yourlegal rights toprotect your family from harm. Had they proceeded to try torun over yourkids I doubt there is a jury anywhere (except maybe inCalifornia) thatwouldn't acquit you.These are the types of scenarios that never show up in the propagandastatistics put out by the Gun Control people. They like to only showinformation regarding actual shootings of children, etcwihtout includingthe number of lives that are saved evey year by guns that arenever evenfired. But again, this is another debate.Scott K-----Original Message-----From: Siade, Randy [mailtoo:randy.siade@unisys.com]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:08 PMTo: 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisHere is a true story at the coves. I took my wife and kids tothe firstcover for some recreation swimming and fishing. My kids arein the waterplaying with my wife close by when these drunk guys in a jeepcome down thebig hill and want to travel through the water where my kidsare playing.They tell my wife to move the kids out of the way or theywill run themover. My wife stepped in between them and the kids. Theystart yelling andmoving forward. In the mean time I had pulled my 9mm outwalked up to themand they yelled at me to get my wife and kids out of the wayor they wheregoing to run them over. I calmly pulled my 9mm out and toldthem the "I havea 9mm says you don't". They decided to go around another way.-----Original Message-----From: Nick [mailto:nnote@azboss..net]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:18 PMTo: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisMore than once while wheeling I've come across a group of ATFpeople, youknow, smoking drinking and shooting guns. It makes menervous as hell and Ido plan on getting my own gun to carry someday.There was an article in the paper the other day about this.The author waswriting that he a
lways carried his gun at night but on thisparticular nighthe wasn't. He got cut off by a driver and when he gave theguy the finger,the other driver flashed a gun at him. He said that inreallity he was gladhe had forgotten his gun that day because the situation couldhave veryeasily escalated into someone getting shot. It's justanother interestingview of what may happen. If those ATF people had seen a gunon me it couldhave frightened them into pointing theirs at me.On the other hand, when I went hiking into four peaks acouple of weekendsago, I had a shotgun with me, and it made me feel moresecure. Not forpeople but because it is a prime bear habitat.Nick----- Original Message -----From: "sinclare_jon" To: <
az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:03 PMSubject: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
what do you all think?I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel
alone and
I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and takepictures.I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but thelast guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. Hispoint is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.So the question is: What do you carry and where?thanksYour use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service .
37474 From: JW <joew@a...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 2:01pm
Subject: RE: ........GUNS----->Please read this
Fred,
There are circumstances where it is legal to threaten use of a firearm and there are circumstances where it is illegal to threaten use of a firearm. The bottom line is;
If it would be legal for you to USE your weapon, it is legal for you to DRAW your weapon.
If you are in a situation where it would be illegal for you to use your weapon, it is illegal for you to draw your weapon.
It is illegal for instance, for you to draw your weapon and threaten someone who is about to shoot your dog.
It is legal for instance, for you to draw your weapon and threaten someone who is about to shoot your child.
There is a GREAT book entitled something like "Arizona Gun Laws" or some such title (I have it at home not at work). It is a great paperback book which I would recommend to everyone who carries a gun in Arizona.
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: Fred [mailto:fredtj@home.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 2:36 PM
To: joew@avanticorp.com
Cc: 'Scott Kruize'; 'Siade, Randy'; 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; 'sinclare_jon'
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
Mmmmm, unless they've changed a law or two in the last couple of years, when I checked last, it *IS* illegal to threaten to use of firearm, even if it's ok to use the firmarm (that is shoot someone) for that event. . It's not, of course, illegal to use the firearm to protect a third party from certain activities, but it is (or was) illegal to threaten to do so. . It's also illegal to shoot someone with the intent to wound, even if it was legal to use deadly force (ie shooting someone) to prevent the event. Lastly, this state also had a "fleeing felon" law that makes it illegal for a civilian (ie non police) to shot a person fleeing the scene regardless of what that person may have done. Anyways, this is how it was couple or so years ago.
:)
Fred
JW wrote:
No probably about it... if these guys had continued to threaten Randy's wifeand children with a deadly weapon (the vehicle), Randy would have beenwithin his legal rights to use deadly force to stop the driver.Hopefully, Tom will speak out on this thread, but, having just taken a CCWclass this topic is fresh in my mind.It is legal to display and threaten to use (in Arizona anyway) a weapon toprotect a third party (in this case, Randy's family) from deadly force. Itwould have been legal for me or anyone else to protect Randy's family aswell.Scott has touched on a number of great points (kudos Scott).There was a time when I would have argued that having a weapon is just plainnot needed since statistically, you will probably never have occasion to useit to protect yourself...When the Indian gas station attendant died by being shot dead two blocksfrom my house in Mesa at the gas station that I
go to twice a week... and Iwas going there to get gas just after he was shot and I saw the police justpulling up... my mind was changed forever.If I had been at the gas station 5 minutes earlier, I would have been thereat the time of the shooting. Had I been there, and had to stand idly by andwatch a man get shot to death; it would have caused me no end of grief.I signed up for a concealed carry class and purchased my .45 sig a few dayslater.I hope that I never need to use my weapon... but if I ever encounter asituation where I need it, I will not hesitate a nanosecond to use it.Kind Regards,Joe WestPS. I joined the NRA to support their efforts to help ensure our secondamendment rights are never violated by our own government... I guess thismakes me a red-neck engineering geek.
-----Original Message-----From: Scott Kruize [mailto:scottkruize@earthlink.net]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:19 PMTo: Siade, Randy; 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisGood point. In this scenario you probably were within yourlegal rights toprotect your family from harm. Had they proceeded to try torun over yourkids I doubt there is a jury anywhere (except maybe inCalifornia) thatwouldn't acquit you.These are the types of scenarios that never show up in the propagandastatistics put out by the Gun Control people. They like to only showinformation regarding actual shootings of children, etcwihtout includingthe number of lives that are saved evey year by guns that arenever evenfired. But again, this is another debate.Scott K-----Original Message-----From: Siade, Randy [mailto:randy.siade@unisys.com]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:08 PMTo: 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisHere is a true story at the coves. I took my wife and kids tothe firstcover for some recreation swimming and fishing. My kids arein the waterplaying with my wife close by when these drunk guys in a jeepcome down thebig hill and want to travel through the water where my kidsare playing.They tell my wife to move the kids out of the way or theywill run themover. My wife stepped in between them and the kids. Theystart yelling andmoving forward. In the mea
n time I had pulled my 9mm outwalked up to themand they yelled at me to get my wife and kids out of the wayor they wheregoing to run them over. I calmly pulled my 9mm out and toldthem the "I havea 9mm says you don't". They decided to go around another way.-----Original Message-----From: Nick [mailto:nnote@azboss.net]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:18 PMTo: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisMore than once while wheeling I've come across a group of ATFpeople, youknow, smoking drinking and shooting guns. It makes menervous as hell and Ido plan on getting my own gun to carry someday.There was an article in the paper the other day about this.The author waswriting that he always carried h
is gun at night but on thisparticular nighthe wasn't. He got cut off by a driver and when he gave theguy the finger,the other driver flashed a gun at him. He said that inreallity he was gladhe had forgotten his gun that day because the situation couldhave veryeasily escalated into someone getting shot. It's justanother interestingview of what may happen. If those ATF people had seen a gunon me it couldhave frightened them into pointing theirs at me.On the other hand, when I went hiking into four peaks acouple of weekendsago, I had a shotgun with me, and it made me feel moresecure. Not forpeople but because it is a prime bear habitat.Nick----- Original Message -----From: "sinclare_jon" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:03 PMSubject: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
what do you all think?I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel
alone and
I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and takepictures.I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but thelast guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. Hispoint is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.So the question is: What do you carry and where?thanksYour use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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37475 From: Siade, Randy <randy.siade@u...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 2:06pm
Subject: RE: ........GUNS----->Please read this
Yes I have the book and you are correct.
-----Original Message-----
From: JW [mailto:joew@avanticorp.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 3:02 PM
To: 'Fred'
Cc: 'Scott Kruize'; Siade, Randy; 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; 'sinclare_jon'
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
Fred,
There are circumstances where it is legal to threaten use of a firearm and there are circumstances where it is illegal to threaten use of a firearm. The bottom line is;
If it would be legal for you to USE your weapon, it is legal for you to DRAW your weapon.
If you are in a situation where it would be illegal for you to use your weapon, it is illegal for you to draw your weapon.
It is illegal for instance, for you to draw your weapon and threaten someone who is about to shoot your dog.
It is legal for instance, for you to draw your weapon and threaten someone who is about to shoot your child.
There is a GREAT book entitled something like "Arizona Gun Laws" or some such title (I have it at home not at work). It is a great paperback book which I would recommend to everyone who carries a gun in Arizona.
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: Fred [mailto:fredtj@home.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 2:36 PM
To: joew@avanticorp.com
Cc: 'Scott Kruize'; 'Siade, Randy'; 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; 'sinclare_jon'
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
Mmmmm, unless they've changed a law or two in the last couple of years, when I checked last, it *IS* illegal to threaten to use of firearm, even if it's ok to use the firmarm (that is shoot someone) for that event. . It's not, of course, illegal to use the firearm to protect a third party from certain activities, but it is (or was) illegal to threaten to do so. . It's also illegal to shoot someone with the intent to wound, even if it was legal to use deadly force (ie shooting someone) to prevent the event. Lastly, this state also had a "fleeing felon" law that makes it illegal for a civilian (ie non police) to shot a person fleeing the scene regardless of what that person may have done. Anyways, this is how it was couple or so years ago.
:)
Fred
JW wrote:
No probably about it... if these guys had continued to threaten Randy's wifeand children with a deadly weapon (the vehicle), Randy would have beenwithin his legal rights to use deadly force to stop the driver.Hopefully, Tom will speak out on this thread, but, having just taken a CCWclass this topic is fresh in my mind.It is legal to display and threaten to use (in Arizona anyway) a weapon toprotect a third party (in this case, Randy's family) from deadly force. Itwould have been legal for me or anyone else to protect Randy's family aswell.Scott has touched on a number of great points (kudos Scott).There was a time when I would have argued that having a weapon is just plainnot needed since statistically, you will probably never have occasion to useit to protect yourself...When the Indian gas station attendant died by being shot dead t!
wo blocksfrom my house in Mesa at the gas stat!
ion that I
go to twice a week... and Iwas going there to get gas just after he was shot and I saw the police justpulling up... my mind was changed forever.If I had been at the gas station 5 minutes earlier, I would have been thereat the time of the shooting. Had I been there, and had to stand idly by andwatch a man get shot to death; it would have caused me no end of grief.I signed up for a concealed carry class and purchased my .45 sig a few dayslater.I hope that I never need to use my weapon... but if I ever encounter asituation where I need it, I will not hesitate a nanosecond to use it.Kind Regards,Joe WestPS. I joined the NRA to support their efforts to help ensure our secondamendment rights are never violated by our own government... I guess thismakes me a red-neck engineering geek.
-----Original Message-----From: Scott Kruize [mailto:scottkruize@earthlink.net]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:19 PMTo: Siade, Randy; 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisGood point. In this scenario you probably were within yourlegal rights toprotect your family from harm. Had they proceeded to try torun over yourkids I doubt there is a jury anywhere (except maybe inCalifornia) thatwouldn't acquit you.These are the types of scenarios that never show up in the propagandastatistics put out by the Gun Control people. They like to only showinformation regarding actual shootings of children, etcwihtout includingthe number of lives that are saved eve!
y !
year by guns that arenever evenfired. But again, this is another debate.Scott K-----Original Message-----From: Siade, Randy [mailto:randy.siade@unisys.com]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:08 PMTo: 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisHere is a true story at the coves. I took my wife and kids tothe firstcover for some recreation swimming and fishing. My kids arein the waterplaying with my wife close by when these drunk guys in a jeepcome down thebig hill and want to travel through the water where my kidsare playing.They tell my wife to move the kids out of the way or theywill run themover. My wife stepped in between them and the kids. Theystart yelling andmoving forward. In the mea
n time I had pulled my 9mm outwalked up to themand they yelled at me to get my wife and kids out of the wayor they wheregoing to run them over. I calmly pulled my 9mm out and toldthem the "I havea 9mm says you don't". They decided to go around another way.-----Original Message-----From: Nick [mailto:nnote@azboss.net]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:18 PMTo: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisMore than once while wheeling I've come across a group of ATFpeople, youknow, smoking drinking and shooting guns. It makes menervous as hell and Ido plan on getting my own gun to carry someday.There was an article in the paper the other day about this.The author waswriting that he always carried h
is gun at night but on thisparticular nighthe wasn't. He got cut off by a driver and when he gave theguy the finger,the other driver flashed a gun at him. He said that inreallity he was gladhe had forgotten his gun that day because the situation couldhave veryeasily escalated into someone getting shot. It's justanother interestingview of what may happen. If those ATF people had seen a gunon me it couldhave frightened them into pointing theirs at me.On the other hand, when I went hiking into four peaks acouple of weekendsago, I had a shotgun with me, and it made me feel moresecure. Not forpeople but because it is a prime bear habitat.Nick----- Original Message -----From: "sinclare_jon" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:03 PMSubject: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
what do you all think?I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel
alone and
I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and takepictures.I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but thelast guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. Hispoint is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.So the question is: What do you carry and where?thanksYour use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
37476 From: Siade, Randy <randy.siade@u...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 2:11pm
Subject: RE: ........GUNS----->Please read this
-----Original Message-----
From: Fred [mailto:fredtj@home.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 3:07 PM
To: Siade, Randy
Cc: joew@avanticorp.com; 'Scott Kruize'; 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; 'sinclare_jon'
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
The only point that I was making, specifically to what you stated below:
"
It is legal to display and threaten to use (in Arizona anyway)[Siade, Randy] It is legal, in the state of Arizona read Arizona gun laws, to threaten
the use of deadly force if the threat is used to protect life of yourself or a third party.
"
is that it, at least didn't use to be, legally to *threaten* for use a firearm, not that you can't use it. :)
The biggest thing to remember, is that when a person shoots another person, one of those two has committed a very serious crime.
[Siade, Randy] True but it is not always the one doing the shooting that has committed the crime.
Cheers,
Fred
Siade, Randy wrote:
You are correct in part. You may only use deadly force if a threat of life to you or a third party exists. If the perpetrator is fleeing there is no threat. In my case I was within my legal right to stop the threat.
-----Original Message-----
From: Fred [mailto:fredtj@home.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 2:36 PM
To: joew@avanticorp.com
Cc: 'Scott Kruize'; Siade, Randy; 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; 'sinclare_jon'
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
Mmmmm, unless they've changed a law or two in the last couple of years, when I checked last, it *IS* illegal to threaten to use of firearm, even if it's ok to use the firmarm (that is shoot someone) for that event. . It's not, of course, illegal to use the firearm to protect a third party from certain activities, but it is (or was) illegal to threaten to do so. . It's also illegal to shoot someone with the intent to wound, even if it was legal to use deadly force (ie shooting someone) to prevent the event. Lastly, this state also had a "fleeing felon" law that makes it illegal for a civilian (ie non police) to shot a person fleeing the scene regardless of what that person may have done. Anyways, this is how it was couple or so years ago.
:)
Fred
JW wrote:
No probably about it... if these guys had continued to threaten Randy's wifeand children with a deadly weapon (the vehicle), Randy would have beenwithin his legal rights to use deadly force to stop the driver.Hopefully, Tom will speak out on this thread, but, having just taken a CCWclass this topic is fresh in my mind.It is legal to display and threaten to use (in Arizona anyway) a weapon toprotect a third party (in this case, Randy's family) from deadly force. Itwould have been legal for me or anyone else to protect Randy's family aswell.Scott has touched on a number of great points (kudos Scott).There was a time when I would have argued that having a weapon is just plainnot needed since statistically, you will probably never have occasion to useit to protect yourself...When the Indian gas station attendant died by being shot dead two blocksfrom my house in Mesa at the gas station th
at I go to twice a week... and Iwas going there to get gas just after he was shot and I saw the police justpulling up... my mind was changed forever.If I had been at the gas station 5 minutes earlier, I would have been thereat the time of the shooting. Had I been there, and had to stand idly by andwatch a man get shot to death; it would have caused me no end of grief.I signed up for a concealed carry class and purchased my .45 sig a few dayslater.I hope that I never need to use my weapon... but if I ever encounter asituation where I need it, I will not hesitate a nanosecond to use it.Kind Regards,Joe WestPS. I joined the NRA to support their efforts to help ensure our secondamendment rights are never violated by our own government... I guess thismakes me a red-neck engineering geek.
-----Original Message-----From: Scott Kruize [maiilto:scottkruize@earthlink.net]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:19 PMTo: Siade, Randy; 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisGood point. In this scenario you probably were within yourlegal rights toprotect your family from harm. Had they proceeded to try torun over yourkids I doubt there is a jury anywhere (except maybe inCalifornia) thatwouldn't acquit you.These are the types of scenarios that never show up in the propagandastatistics put out by the Gun Control people. They like to only showinformation regarding actual shootings of children, etcwihtout includingthe number of lives that are saved evey year by guns that arenever evenfired. But again, this is another debate.Scott K-----Original Message-----From: Siade, Randy [mailtoo:randy.siade@unisys.com]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 1:08 PMTo: 'Nick'; az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: RE: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisHere is a true story at the coves. I took my wife and kids tothe firstcover for some recreation swimming and fishing. My kids arein the waterplaying with my wife close by when these drunk guys in a jeepcome down thebig hill and want to travel through the water where my kidsare playing.They tell my wife to move the kids out of the way or theywill run themover. My wife stepped in between them and the kids. Theystart yelling andmoving forward. In the mean time I had pulled my 9mm outwalked up to themand they yelled at me to get my wife and kids out of the wayor they wheregoing to run them over. I calmly pulled my 9mm out and toldthem the "I havea 9mm says you don't". They decided to go around another way.-----Original Message-----From: Nick [mailto:nnote@azboss..net]Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:18 PMTo: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com; sinclare_jonSubject: Re: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read thisMore than once while wheeling I've come across a group of ATFpeople, youknow, smoking drinking and shooting guns. It makes menervous as hell and Ido plan on getting my own gun to carry someday.There was an article in the paper the other day about this.The author waswriting that he a
lways carried his gun at night but on thisparticular nighthe wasn't. He got cut off by a driver and when he gave theguy the finger,the other driver flashed a gun at him. He said that inreallity he was gladhe had forgotten his gun that day because the situation couldhave veryeasily escalated into someone getting shot. It's justanother interestingview of what may happen. If those ATF people had seen a gunon me it couldhave frightened them into pointing theirs at me.On the other hand, when I went hiking into four peaks acouple of weekendsago, I had a shotgun with me, and it made me feel moresecure. Not forpeople but because it is a prime bear habitat.Nick----- Original Message -----From: "sinclare_jon" To: <
az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:03 PMSubject: [az_vjc] ........GUNS----->Please read this
what do you all think?I've been wheeling in Arizona for about a year now. I wheel
alone and
I go as far from the main roads as I can go. I explore and takepictures.I've met more than one jeep driver that carries. I don't, but thelast guy I met said I need to if I expect to stay unscathed. Hispoint is when the bad guys see you have a piece they move on.So the question is: What do you carry and where?thanksYour use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service .