Butcher Jones & the coves tomorrow 10/31

[ROKCRLR]

John(Yelacon) and I are heading out to Butcher Jones and the coves behind Saguaro Lake tomorrow 10/31. We're meeting at the parking lot by the gate at Butcher Jones at 9:00am, heading out around 9:30. We'll be on CB channel 4.

Edit: W're both running stock rubicons, so we aren't going to be doing anything crazy, just playing in the dirt and sand. Stock rigs are welcome.

[etropic]

stock rigs? WHAT!

With those, you'll be able to do every hill out there ;)

Now you have my problem, I'm just a chicken when it comes to heights and angles :P

Was out there yesterday. Everything is becoming really erroded and cleared out.

The run out of cove 1 can be taken from any anlge, the drop in to cove 2 has about 10 entry points...

The stair step at the main hill area has a new approach from the left side that was barely there before :)

have fun ! I would go with you if I didn't have to work...

[OlneyJeeps]

the "trail" to cove 2 is NOT a trail... some drunk *****hole cut it last year (I was there the day after):mad: :mad: :mad:
this is what gives sierra club fuel: yahoos out there thinking they can go cut the crap out of anywhere they see a set of tire tracks (from some idiot)
Want the coves closed?
Tear it up
NOT with me

[ROKCRLR]

the "trail" to cove 2 is NOT a trail... some drunk *****hole cut it last year (I was there the day after):mad: :mad: :mad:
this is what gives sierra club fuel: yahoos out there thinking they can go cut the crap out of anywhere they see a set of tire tracks (from some idiot)
Want the coves closed?
Tear it up
NOT with me

Uh dude, we're just going out to explore, not make new trails....

[RandyT]

Geez Kevin!
WTF are you guys doing out there? :mad:





:D
I wish i could make it, I played hooky today so two in a row would not be good.
TTYL

[etropic]

the "trail" to cove 2 is NOT a trail... some drunk *****hole cut it last year (I was there the day after):mad: :mad: :mad:
this is what gives sierra club fuel: yahoos out there thinking they can go cut the crap out of anywhere they see a set of tire tracks (from some idiot)
Want the coves closed?
Tear it up
NOT with me

woah...

exactly which part are you refering to?

I was refering to being on top of the "finger" between 1 and 2 and heading towards the lake you drop left into cove two. There are three tree stumps sort of growing together at the bottom of the hill.

[GLEN REAMS]

i might show up out there depending on if i work or not if so ill look for you ill be in a grey xj

[SHNIPE]

woah...

exactly which part are you refering to?

I was refering to being on top of the "finger" between 1 and 2 and heading towards the lake you drop left into cove two. There are three tree stumps sort of growing together at the bottom of the hill.

If it is just at the top of te big hill out of cove one you are referring to then yes he has right to be angry about it because it was NOT there about a year ago. Accepting changes in the trial system will only lead to complacency. I know that it was not a trail down because i slid down that side about 15 feet and waited 3 hours too have somone come HAUL me back up because it wasnt a trail at the time. I know you guys weerent the ones that did it, but lets not make it worse by taking lines that are only "barely" there, let those ones be regrown at least we will know itss not the jeepers that are widening or making new one then. Steve is angry because hes been around a lot longer than most have in the OHV community and has seen LOTS of isht get closed and WE take the flack for it. Do not take offense, take notice.

[YJunk]

If it is just at the top of te big hill out of cove one you are referring to then yes he has right to be angry about it because it was NOT there about a year ago. Accepting changes in the trial system will only lead to complacency. I know that it was not a trail down because i slid down that side about 15 feet and waited 3 hours too have somone come HAUL me back up because it wasnt a trail at the time. I know you guys weerent the ones that did it, but lets not make it worse by taking lines that are only "barely" there, let those ones be regrown at least we will know itss not the jeepers that are widening or making new one then. Steve is angry because hes been around a lot longer than most have in the OHV community and has seen LOTS of isht get closed and WE take the flack for it. Do not take offense, take notice.

X2...

[etropic]

If it is just at the top of te big hill out of cove one you are referring to then yes he has right to be angry about it because it was NOT there about a year ago. Accepting changes in the trial system will only lead to complacency. I know that it was not a trail down because i slid down that side about 15 feet and waited 3 hours too have somone come HAUL me back up because it wasn't a trail at the time. I know you guys weerent the ones that did it, but lets not make it worse by taking lines that are only "barely" there, let those ones be regrown at least we will know itss not the jeepers that are widening or making new one then. Steve is angry because hes been around a lot longer than most have in the OHV community and has seen LOTS of isht get closed and WE take the flack for it. Do not take offense, take notice.

ya... NO....

Lets look at it from a different angle.

While you guys are assuming that I and others are complacent in caring about trails and land issues, and need some sort of lesson, your assumptions are incorrect.

I purchased my jeep in March. The coves were one of the first places that I went to with the VJC group. At that time the "drop" into cove 2 from the hill out of cove 1 was clearly used frequently. There was a wide path of travel, there were no shrubs being trampled.

If it is my assumption that it's ok to drive there then that's about as correct as it gets. The fact that you guys or someone else started wheeling before me has no bearing on the fact that to me this is an acceptable path to take at the time that I saw it.

Sure he (and anyone) has the right to be angry. But your preaching to the choir here.

But your right, "lets not make it worse by taking paths that are barley there". When I find one, I'll let you know we didn't take it.

I do take notice. And you know what, a little offense as well...

That "WE" that you refer to about getting flack... that includes the rest of us too.

EDIT: here is a pic of the area in question.... feel free to explain how someone is suppose to know how this is NOT part of an acceptable trail... And if you can't then just MAYBE you can see why telling "us" to take notice comes off kinda, well...

Click here. Centered on finger between cove 1 and 2. (http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&z=18&ll=33.581331,-111.496049&spn=0.002976,0.004511&t=h&om=1)

EDIT AGAIN: I erased an edit because it was sort of mean, and that wasn't my intent. So if someone saw it, then now you know.

[SHNIPE]

what im geting at is its as wide as it already needs to be. its the atvs and bikes that are makig that trial. That is why its really wide. I remembeer when the hill OUT of cove was only that wide. You can tel by the picture you posted that its obvious the trail is a lot newer due to the color of the dirt. out of cove one s dug so deep its whitish, on the down to 2 its just dirt still, not dug so far down. If you took offense that was on your own account. Ive been on cleanups with you, I know you care. That wasnt the basis of my argument nor was it aimed directly at you. My intent is to say that if a trail LOOKS new regardless of how many peopel you think may have gone down it before you, DONT MAKE IT WIDER OR WORSE JUST CAUSE SOMEONE ELSE STARTED IT.

Your points were made, mine had their chance. both had their rebuttals. End of topic.

[etropic]

cool deal.

[YJunk]

I think this whole little dance actually brings up a couple of good points... If you're new to wheelin, you don't know what you don't know... But ignorance is not an excuse. I had a ranger roll up on me out at 4 Peaks when I was on a trail "that was off the trail". I couldn't tell the diff but he could. I was looking at a fine around $300 bones.

Once you've been clued in then it becomes your responsability to do the right thing.

If you talk to some of the wheelers who've been around, like Devilman, they'll tell you that climb up out of one to the top of the finger is many times wider than it used to be, so we've had a major impact on that area by not sticking to the line up the hill. The same thing will happen with the other side.

The other concern here is, that Bish is steep, there has already been one seriouse roll out there if I'm not mistaken. It would seem to me a serious injury out there would increase our chances of having that area restricted.

The hill down into cove two makes the decsent into cove one look like childs play (at least to me, and I've run the first hill many times).

The "path" into cove two wasn't a jeep trail until recently and just me personally I think it should be left alone. I'm not sure where anyone else stands on this and I'd like to here from some of the other, more senior members about out our take and position on cutting trails. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that trail is brand new and not well worn when compared to the balance of butcher jones... Where does the forest service stand on this issue for that area... Is that first hill even part of the designated trail or is that also an "off the trail" location.

There is just so much heat on us right now with public land I don't want to see us collectively do something that makes it worse.

Just my two spins of the tire...

[SHNIPE]

Your POS Heep cant spin one tire let alone both :D Freakin 4cyl JUNKER!!


Well said on everyones part. See Logical discussions without bashing :eek: haha we can coexist without makin me wanna run away and quit the board :D

[etropic]

haha... lol...

ya, YJ your right. And it goes so much farther too. Even in the short time I"ve been wheeling in AZ that path has grown out of cove 1. I always take the "left" line which is the more defined line. This weekend though, the right side, which use to be covered in bushes is completely open as well.

Those atv's and bikes (i'm generalizing here) really tear it up going up and down. pretty soon, the next jeep (or whomever) doesn't know the difference.

But how can we or anyone possibly mitigate that? Half the people out there are more of the "public land is free land" attitude. It's hard to say who needs to be aware of what when... :( What happens when your in a group and they come across a clearly defined trail, but since you where on it YEARS ago, and it wasn't part ot the trail system, but now everyone is running it. Do you sit there and say "No, I can't run there, that wasn't part of the trail". When clearly the damage has been done. I mean... no I suppose you wouldn't but what is that really solving ?

It's sort of an endless battle. At one point in history NONE of it was part of a trail. But at some point people started using the land. Etc...
Anyway... blah blah blah... everyone knows the story...

Sorry to jump on you SHNIPE, I just was frustrated.

I like your box man kinda killer saw robot garage monster thingy avatar though ;)

[SHNIPE]

I have thick skin. Call me demented but I kinda like talkin trash... believe it or not. there was no offense taken by me for sure. I enjoy this :D

I look at it knowing that IM not part of the problem when i decide to take a different route because at that moment i know that it wasnt a trail at some point. Not quite the mitigation you would think but its more of a mind set for me. Also for anyone in the group that is with me, they would know as well that it shouldnt be taken. Drop in the bucket i know, but its all that I personally can to. We cant fence them and reseed the grasses or anything cause it wont matter but we can actively NOT take part in it. Im sure someone who thinks more outside the box will come up with better ways and reasons. Personally i HATE hill climbs, so i tend not to use any unless its part of the only way in or out.

[etropic]

HA !! I hate hill climbs too !

I say we just boycott BJ / Coves all together and stick to the rocks!

[SHNIPE]

lol think i alraedy have. I used to go there probably 2-3 times a week when i lived in Fountain Hills... Now i rarely go there unless its a cleanup or something. I learned about rocks and quit sand and hills :D

[YJunk]

Your POS Heep cant spin one tire let alone both :D Freakin 4cyl JUNKER!!

It happened once in Payson; I was stuck in the snow!! Freackin TJ guys always bashing the real Jeeps... Square Light Envy!!! HATERS!!!!

SCREW YOU GUYS I'M GOING HOME...

NO, NO... SCREW YOU ... HOME

My Junk goes in friday for its arse implant... hopefully it comes out a better, more durable rig... Cause I want to go rock brawlin... there is still some straight metal underneith which I just don't undrstand.

[SHNIPE]

Its cause you dont try hard enough. Ima make a thread in OT about NOTHING At all so we dotn wh0re up this thread anymore :D

[etropic]

YJunk, you get that locker removed so you can turn around in a football field without having to make a 90 point turn ?

And SHNIPE.... looking at your pics, I'm trying to figure out how you got upside down on such a flat road.... ?

[YJunk]

I'm not sure a football field is big enough...

Its about to get worse, I'm going to solid axle shafts up front (no disconect) so I'll be 12 pointing my way through everything.

I'm planning on a 4:1 kit and will probably opt for the 2Low kit as well which will allow me to discontect the front and hopefully improve the turning radius a lil bit.

I think Shnipe currently holds the world record for flattest, straightest roll conducted under 10 miles an hour. There are an entire group of engineers out there right now trying to figure out the math behind it; just doesn't seem possible they keep saying.

[BRNZY]

Hey Rob (etropic), Why in the H-E double hockey sticks do you have:
"Don't hate me. Hate the Steelers"
in your signature. If I didn't know any better, I would think that it is a jab at me knowing how big of a fan I am (despite the not very favorable record they have). What a "dog" (ya' know, dog ... you're a Browns fan ... dog). I don't care who you are, thats funny right there :D

[etropic]

Hey Rob (etropic), Why in the H-E double hockey sticks do you have:
"Don't hate me. Hate the Steelers"
in your signature. If I didn't know any better, I would think that it is a jab at me knowing how big of a fan I am (despite the not very favorable record they have). What a "dog" (ya' know, dog ... you're a Browns fan ... dog). I don't care who you are, thats funny right there :D


Sorry did you say something ?