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View Full Version : BLM day Lower Wood Pecker Results !!



etropic
09-30-2006, 02:32 PM
Just returned from the BLM event at Lower Woodpecker.

Great turn out, over 30 people total. 3 BLM a few people on their own and the rest jeepers. Tuscon Offroad showed up with 15 people. At least 10-12 or so from AZVJC.

All in all we installed a kiosk on the main road near the wood pecker entrance. We also cut a trail from the road down to the petroglyphs near wash. And installed three signs along the trail.

When I saw cut, I mean cut. We destroyed the land that was there and forced a foot path. We dug up cactus, trees, shrubs, rocks and anything else in the way. I alone did more destruction to nature this morning than any jeep outing I have ever been on, combined.

There were only two "greenies", but they were VERY obvious to spot. They were the ones pacing the trail, complaining, and not picking up any tools.

As afternoon approached the crowd started getting smaller. The last hour or so was a handful of VJC members with pick axes installing that last two signs ALONE. The rest of everyone, greenies and BLM alike took off for lunch. We (the last from vjc) installed the last two signs, cemented, cleaned up all the tools, cleaned up all the trash, INCLUDING the cup that Jane from the BLM discarded in a cactus earlier and took everything to the top off the hill.

All in all it was a good day. We accomplished what I would have wanted. The OHV crowd stuck it 'till the end, and everyone else complained about how hard the work was.

It was nice to see when the last of us finally made it back to camp to see if any food remained (there was plenty)... that the Tuscon offroad club was just returning from running lower woodpecker while the rest of us where swinging axes into solid rock for the last few signs. But hey, I heard them talking about Adopting Martinez Canyon, so we are all saved right?

I bit my tongue as much as possible. Jane from the BLM kept talking about how they are trying to shut woodpecker down cause its sacred land and no one wants us there. "Sacred land, sacred hill, sacred rock, sacred water, sacred fish..." everything must have been sacred.

I jumped in and reminded her about how the BLM is there to mitigate ALL interested parties interests, not just shut trails down for the fun of it. She eventually caved ;)

Hey now, I was nice, it was a civil conversation!!!

Anyway....

I"m rambling, I'm tired, I'm hungry, I'm dirty.

AZVJC showed up. Did the hard work. Stuck it till the end. Didn't complain. And all in all, showed a few BLM members that we are serious about these issues and are willing to participate in the overall plan. Check it out when your out there next time. When you go through the fence just past the ranch go up the hill (not into wood pecker) and it's on your left. Down the road farther there is a turn out with rocks lined up, that's the start of the foot path. The sign posts are installed but there is no sign media yet.

oh, and I managed to scribble AZVJC in the cement at the main kiosk when everyone was putting in thier initials :)

peace

EDIT: ok I took a shower ;) Now I feel better.

Didn't want anyone to get the wrong idea. It was a great day. Everything went very well. A great lunch was provided by the BLM and they seemed honestly appreciative of every ones involvement. When we left, Francisco said that he would keep everyone updated on the progress, and when the signage will be delivered. They also want to clear the turn around spots with some heavy equipment again, since the machines didn't show up for some reason today.

We thanked him for the opportunity, letting him know that AZVJC and OHV in general is here to help where we can.

xFallen
09-30-2006, 03:10 PM
Sounds like a success.

Did you return to Jane the cup she "forgot" on the desert?


Barry

etropic
09-30-2006, 03:15 PM
Sounds like a success.

Did you return to Jane the cup she "forgot" on the desert?


Barry

ya really lol... I'm sure it was an accident (to forget it) it was just really ironic.

There were a few people that designated themselves "cactus savers". Most of the cactus worth saving the transplated to an area off the trail. That was the plan from the start.

I feel good about what we did though. It really was a good day. My hands are freakin' sore from swinging that axe!! (my poor little programmer hands lol).

ROKCRLR
09-30-2006, 03:35 PM
That's some great work guys!

georgia
09-30-2006, 03:56 PM
I was gonna write an almost identicle response so I'll just X2 it... I can't believe how little work they did and how much outright destruction we cause to create that foot path. One of the ladies literally almost started crying when I was relocating the cactus from the area "they" wanted as a parking place... "Please don't kill it" she said three times.

I love animal and plant life but come on...

The foot path itself (to me) is a good idea because it would let someone like my mother see rock carvings; something that she might not otherwise be able to do.

I drove up into lower pecker and thought about trying that first obsticle to the right, got out and walked it and found some oil on the trail... I didn't have anything to clean it up with and didn't want to get blamed for spilling it so I flipped a biaatch and headed back out.

All in all it was a good day... I worked on the parking lot area and can tell you for sure if it hadn't been for the AZVJC those rocks would have never made it there, gotten distributed or stacked they way they did.

Ummm...I think ALL of TOR worked on getting the rocks up there as well as the AZVJC members in stacking them. BUT TOR MOVED all the rocks...with my jeep...

etropic
09-30-2006, 04:03 PM
Don't get me wrong... everyone worked their asses off. I just went to work, not bail halfway through and run a trail.

But it's not about that....

Everyone that helped at all deserves a lot of credit :)

georgia
09-30-2006, 04:06 PM
It was nice to see when the last of us finally made it back to camp to see if any food remained (there was plenty)... that the Tuscon offroad club was just returning from running lower woodpecker while the rest of us where swinging axes into solid rock for the last few signs. But hey, I heard them talking about Adopting Martinez Canyon, so we are all saved right?

Please help me understand the point of this section of your post? After we had completed our appointed task of transporting and stacking rocks to the parking site, we went back to the main trail, filled in a washed out section of the road with rock and also removed an old, bent up, sharp fence post so that it would not cut YOUR tire.

By the time that I chose to go out and play in the lower woodpecker section along with one other TOR member's rig, everyone was eating lunch. By the time that TOR had gotten back to the main camp to eat lunch, we were one of the last few to eat and most of the other folks were having seconds.... I'm sorry if I took a little offense to your post, but you make it sound as though we were out ****ing off while AZVJC did all of the work..

Let see...

We had a LARGE crew loading, unloading, stacking and moving rocks. We had three members at the parking lot site, and we had one member at the main kiosk in main camp...so I guess we didn't do anything?

BULL****. Sorry if I am a little pissed off.

georgia
09-30-2006, 04:08 PM
Don't get me wrong... everyone worked their asses off. I just went to work, not bail halfway through and run a trail.

But it's not about that....

Everyone that helped at all deserves a lot of credit :)


Excuse me, but by the time I decided to go and play, almost EVERYONE was headed back to the main camp. I think you have you timing a little off, not to mention that fact that the first guy to BAIL to run the trail was from AZVJC...he was coming OUT OF THE TRAIL as we were headed in. We too only went to the first obstacle and turned back. We were notified within five minutes of leaving camp that LUNCH WAS READY...which tells me that we were done.... was I wrong to go and play for a few minutes....

And if its "not about that" THEN WHY EVEN MENTION IT....unless you want to talk ****.

Allen
09-30-2006, 04:08 PM
Yeah! The VJC had a lot of hard workers, most of the other jeepers worked hard too ;) We cleared the first 40 or so feet of path, then started relocating cactus for the greenies! (they knew where they wanted them, but not how to dig a hole :confused: ) Then we went down to the middle of the trail and started diggin holes and setting posts. I went down to the bottom to see that the rest of the VJC had almost finished the bottom. It was a lot of hard work and some people seemed to spend the whole time working on the same 3 feet of trail, but it got done and looks good!

I agree that we did tear up more desert than I ever seen tore up before.

After we were all done I ran down to lower woodpecker and drove up half way (up to the pictographs:rolleyes:

I seen that oil spill and did my best to clean it up. ( I had some spill sand and some alcohol on a rag!)

I got some pics, but I'm too tired to d/l them from the camera:o

georgia
09-30-2006, 04:18 PM
Ok...here's one for ya....one of the guys swinging the axe into the solid rock while TOR was off running a trail...oh yea, his name is Jim Russell and he is TOR Member as well...

I think you have your facts a LITTLE OFF....

Hunter
09-30-2006, 04:21 PM
I had fun today. Here are some of my thoughts..

I agree. I thought the greenies did a great job of telling us what to do.:rolleyes: Whatever. In fairness, I did see 2 greenie guys working pretty hard, but for the rest, argh.....

But all in all, we showed up in good numbers, far out numbered "them" which is what I really wanted to see. We got everything done that needed to be done.

It was ironic to be hacking up the ground with Fransico right next to me. I found sick joy in that. "So, go ahead and dig up these bushes right?"
"Yes, please." :eek: OKAY!

One thing I have to give credit to the BLM, was they came prepared! Had plenty of tools, water, ice, shade tents, gloves and even brought some power tools to help dig some holes. Very impressive with plenty to go around. Even brought plenty of food and bathrooms.

Part I enjoyed the most was the company. Was great to see plenty of new faces. I got as kick out of how the conversation would go...
"You in the AZVJC?"
"Yeah, you?"
"Whats you username?"

Nice to see such a huge gang from Tucson come up. Unexpected but they came to dig. And there was a much bigger turn out of AZVJCer's then I expected. I have a feeling alot of the lurkes showed up and that was a good feeling. Had fun, did good. Was better then spenidng the day in the shop that's for sure.

Thanks to all that showed up and chipped in. We did good today. Now, if you excuse me, I need to take my Adveil and my 3 shots of Jack for my back. :(

georgia
09-30-2006, 04:26 PM
I had fun today. Here are some of my thoughts..

I agree. I thought the greenies did a great job of telling us what to do.:rolleyes: Whatever. In fairness, I did see 2 greenie guys working pretty hard, but for the rest, argh.....

But all in all, we showed up in good numbers, far out numbered "them" which is what I really wanted to see. We got everything done that needed to be done.

It was ironic to be hacking up the ground with Fransico right next to me. I found sick joy in that. "So, go ahead and dig up these bushes right?"
"Yes, please." :eek: OKAY!

One thing I have to give credit to the BLM, was they came prepared! Had plenty of tools, water, ice, shade tents, gloves and even brought some power tools to help dig some holes. Very impressive with plenty to go around. Even brought plenty of food and bathrooms.

Part I enjoyed the most was the company. Was great to see plenty of new faces. I got as kick out of how the conversation would go...
"You in the AZVJC?"
"Yeah, you?"
"Whats you username?"

Nice to see such a huge gang from Tucson come up. Unexpected but they came to dig. And there was a much bigger turn out of AZVJCer's then I expected. I have a feeling alot of the lurkes showed up and that was a good feeling. Had fun, did good. Was better then spenidng the day in the shop that's for sure.

Thanks to all that showed up and chipped in. We did good today. Now, if you excuse me, I need to take my Adveil and my 3 shots of Jack for my back. :(

Thanks Hunter...Could not have said it any better and probably would have posted the same thing if given the opportunity...

etropic
09-30-2006, 04:26 PM
We were notified within five minutes of leaving camp that LUNCH WAS READY...which tells me that we were done.... was I wrong to go and play for a few minutes....

And if its "not about that" THEN WHY EVEN MENTION IT....unless you want to talk ****.

Dude... I'm simply commenting on the fact that AFTER everyone was done getting their first round of food(or running trails or whatever) there were 5 of us still digging holes on the trail. By the time we cleaned everything up and got back, you guys were rolling up talking about how you just did lower woodpecker.

To be honest.... i was a little T'ed off at that point. Excuse me if I brought it up on our forums.

But THANK YOU for coming, THANK YOU for getting so many people together and driving all the way up here and helping out. I PERSONALY appreciate it. Seriously.

georgia
09-30-2006, 04:33 PM
Dude... I'm simply commenting on the fact that AFTER everyone was done getting their first round of food(or running trails or whatever) there were 5 of us still digging holes on the trail. By the time we cleaned everything up and got back, you guys were rolling up talking about how you just did lower woodpecker.

To be honest.... i was a little T'ed off at that point. Excuse me if I brought it up on our forums.

But THANK YOU for coming, THANK YOU for getting so many people together and driving all the way up here and helping out. I PERSONALY appreciate it. Seriously.

Ok, so now I ask...why direct it towards TOR...There were also VJC members back at the camp already...

How was I supposed to know that you were still digging? If I had known, I'd of been the first guy down there digging with you...fact remains, is that there was TOR folks DIGGIN ALONG SIDE YOU..

All I'm asking is that if you had/have a personal issue with me and my actions, talk to me about it, or at least direct it at me...not my club, Tucson Off Road.

I'm going to get cleaned up now and rest for a bit...:mad:

azdesertrhino
09-30-2006, 04:33 PM
Wow, I've been home a little over an hour and already the crap has started.

Yes, I was one of the last to leave the work area. After everyone headed back to the staging area to eat lunch there were five or six of us left at the bottom of the trail to finish digging the final holes, pouring concrete, leveling posts, picking up all the tools, the garbage left by others and moving the tools to the top of the trail head. We joked about everyone being left being Jeep owners and I thought we were all on the same page working toward a common goal. Man was I freakin' mistaken!

Two of the five or six people left to complete the work were TOR members. Myself and Jason.

The original task assigned to TOR was to load rocks from the wash and transport the up to the work area. I belive everyone involved in this were TOR members except Charlie (AZVJC member). All the rock in the wall was loaded into the trailer and hauled up there by TOR. My assignment changed from rock loader to rock unloader and wall builder after around the 2nd or 3rd load.

I was present when Francisco advised Georgia that the last load of rock should be used to fill in the washed out section of the wash.

By the time we got back to the staging area most everyone had been fed and were getting ready to have seconds.

If y'all want to turn this into a pissing contest it's your right, just get your facts straight.

etropic
09-30-2006, 04:42 PM
Are you on azjvc ?

Ok, so when I asked if everyone was AZVJC and you all repied YES... then when we got back TOR proudly proclaimed running the trail....

whatever...

I have my facts straight, I was there....

Apologies to TOR and all offended members. whether you were digging, stacking, eating or otherwise.... SERIOUSLY

georgia
09-30-2006, 04:48 PM
Are you on azjvc ?

Ok, so when I asked if everyone was AZVJC and you all repied YES... then when we got back TOR proudly proclaimed running the trail....

whatever...

I have my facts straight, I was there....

Appologies to TOR and all offended members.

The mistake you made is when you asked if they were AZVJC and you assumed that they were not part of another club.... Also, we did not run the entire trail...I went to the first obstacle and turned around...we were gone for twenty or twenty five minutes.... You were at the far site, so I think you assumed a little too much. I went to "play" after I had talked to other folks and came to the conclusion we were about done. As Jim stated, I was told by Fransisco that our "task" had been completed.

Thank you for the apology. I'm sure it will help with the club. I apologize for the harsh responses to your posts, but I was pretty t'd off as well. If you had an issue with me, then it should have been brought up there before any of us left....not on this forum.... It's funny how the mask of an internet forum can give you balls...

etropic
09-30-2006, 04:55 PM
I don't have an issue with anyone. YOu or any other TOR or non TOR member personaly.

I'm sorry I offended everyone.

I'm sorry I ASSUMED based on all the info at hand, that it was AZVJC members at the end working. (Not realizing two were TOR).

I thought it was ****ty that everyone left us down there to finish and clean up. Not TOR but BLM etc...

It was not my intent to draw line between TOR and VJC or say one was better or helped more etc....

I posted my original post based on what I felt after working hard and returnig late to lunch to see a few jeeps roll up TOR pop out and say they just ran a trail. It was what happened for good or bad.

Again, no problems with any of you guys for any reason.

see ya on the trail.

dragon51
09-30-2006, 04:58 PM
Ya no kidding

dragon51
09-30-2006, 05:01 PM
at least a lot of work did get done for the good for everone

georgia
09-30-2006, 05:06 PM
I don't have an issue with anyone. YOu or any other TOR or non TOR member personaly.

I'm sorry I offended everyone.

I'm sorry I ASSUMED based on all the info at hand, that it was AZVJC members at the end working. (Not realizing two were TOR).

I thought it was ****ty that everyone left us down there to finish and clean up. Not TOR but BLM etc...

It was not my intent to draw line between TOR and VJC or say one was better or helped more etc....

I posted my original post based on what I felt after working hard and returnig late to lunch to see a few jeeps roll up TOR pop out and say they just ran a trail. It was what happened for good or bad.

Again, no problems with any of you guys for any reason.

see ya on the trail.

Thank you for erasing that "line". I just felt like it was an attack on TOR, and there was no bias for it...

Hunter
09-30-2006, 05:28 PM
Ok, now that all that is cleared up.... Did anyone else notice that some of the greenies werent wearing deoderant? Man, you stayed up wind!

azdesertrhino
09-30-2006, 05:33 PM
Ok, now that all that is cleared up.... Did anyone else notice that some of the greenies werent wearing deoderant? Man, you stayed up wind!

So that's what the smell was. I thought maybe there was a dead animal in the area!! :eek:

John,

Nice meeting you, finally able to put a face to the name!

Hunter
09-30-2006, 05:41 PM
So that's what the smell was. I thought maybe there was a dead animal in the area!! :eek:

John,

Nice meeting you, finally able to put a face to the name!

Caught a whiff and had the same thoughts.... reminded me of my time in Flagstaff at NAU. There were some serious tree-huggers up there. SOmetimes you want to take a aside and tell them, "Look man, you stink. I know you are tryign to be a pure with nature and all..... but your killin' the squirels man."


Like wise, I got to put alot of names to faces and that was the best part of the day. :D I wanted to stick around and shoot the breeze with everyone at the lunch table, after all the work, I was really looking foward to catching up. But I was done. I took a big rock the wrong way and my back took all it had. I needed to get home and laydown. Yuck...... Just reminded me that I really need to get out more

azdesertrhino
09-30-2006, 05:48 PM
Caught a whiff and had the same thoughts.... reminded me of my time in Flagstaff at NAU. There were some serious tree-huggers up there. SOmetimes you want to take a aside and tell them, "Look man, you stink. I know you are tryign to be a pure with nature and all..... but your killin' the squirels man."


Like wise, I got to put alot of names to faces and that was the best part of the day. :D I wanted to stick around and shoot the breeze with everyone at the lunch table, after all the work, I was really looking foward to catching up. But I was done. I took a big rock the wrong way and my back took all it had. I needed to get home and laydown. Yuck...... Just reminded me that I really need to get out more

Poor squirrels!!:eek: ROFLMAO!! Hope your back is o.k. John. I know I got hold of those rocks and thought maybe a forklift was in order! :D

Take care, see everyone again!

azrubyman
09-30-2006, 06:18 PM
I had a great time and maybe I wasn't watching real close, but I thought everyone was working.
I guess two of the "greenies" were Tim and Jill. They were designated right off the bat as trail directors as they were the about the only ones that raised their hands when Francisco asked if anyone had "cut" a trail before and knew the proper way. Their jobs were to get us trained and doing the trail work correctly. I think they did that and did it well and I saw both of them working side by side with the rest of us. In fact I think everyone worked pretty darn hard today. It was hot, heavy work and the result is something that is very nice and very useful to the public.
Makes me proud to be associated with guys and gals from the Jeep community. We rocked today and made a very positive impact!!
Tucson Off Roaders...thanks for driving all the way up here and contributing!
Ken

Hunter
09-30-2006, 06:50 PM
They were designated right off the bat as trail directors as they were the about the only ones that raised their hands when Francisco asked if anyone had "cut" a trail before.....
Ken

I have to be honest... when he asked that, I was afraid to raise my hand as it might have been a trick question.

:rolleyes:

azdesertrhino
09-30-2006, 07:11 PM
I have to be honest... when he asked that, I was afraid to raise my hand as it might have been a trick question.

:rolleyes:

LMAO!! Let's not go there!!:eek:

azcharlie
09-30-2006, 09:18 PM
You guys aren't kidding!!!!! After I got tired of loading rocks I walked down to the "WALKING TRAIL" and I was like :eek: :eek: And they tell us to tread lightly. It was nice to see ALL the OHV people doing the work. Yeah I was one of the guys who left early. Family stuff that I couldn't miss. Still had a good time meeting the TOR and many others. Thanks to everyone who was able to help.

TinyMan
10-01-2006, 01:53 AM
Caught a whiff and had the same thoughts.... reminded me of my time in Flagstaff at NAU. There were some serious tree-huggers up there. SOmetimes you want to take a aside and tell them, "Look man, you stink. I know you are tryign to be a pure with nature and all..... but your killin' the squirels man."


Like wise, I got to put alot of names to faces and that was the best part of the day. :D I wanted to stick around and shoot the breeze with everyone at the lunch table, after all the work, I was really looking foward to catching up. But I was done. I took a big rock the wrong way and my back took all it had. I needed to get home and laydown. Yuck...... Just reminded me that I really need to get out more

Sorry about handing off that rock to you the way it happened, hope your back will be better soon.

k7mto
10-01-2006, 10:29 AM
First of all, kudos to everyone who attended and helped out. I was on pager so I had to stay local.

Sounds like the project was a success in that it provides access to those who otherwise might not be able to hike in to see the petroglyphs.

What worries me, is whether this project is/will be a catalyst to close Lower Woodpecker in the future. As the new trail becomes known to the general public, more folks drive in and hike down to view the ancient drawings, then a group of wheelers comes crawling past, interrupting their tranquility or something. God forbid someone gets stuck, rolls or spills fluids in front of greenie spectators.

azrubyman
10-01-2006, 10:59 AM
First of all, kudos to everyone who attended and helped out. I was on pager so I had to stay local.

Sounds like the project was a success in that it provides access to those who otherwise might not be able to hike in to see the petroglyphs.

What worries me, is whether this project is/will be a catalyst to close Lower Woodpecker in the future. As the new trail becomes known to the general public, more folks drive in and hike down to view the ancient drawings, then a group of wheelers comes crawling past, interrupting their tranquility or something. God forbid someone gets stuck, rolls or spills fluids in front of greenie spectators.

Matt,
That certainly is my concern. And that concern was heightened considerably yesterday when I saw where the last "landing and view area is. It will be located ~5-10' of an obstacle by-pass trail.
I voiced my concern in another thread earlier and I was not going to participate in this because of the trail closure fears. I listened to what the BLM directors response was to Sandee and Chris (no closure of Woodpecker) and I thought, "OK. I will take his word for it this time." And I will participate and help with this, based solely on Patrick Madigans word. I'm using it as sort of litmus test.
If we get some BS from the BLM as you mentioned and/or part of the trail or all of it is closed, my response will be:
"I will never trust the BLM or any of it's employees again. I will never assist them, help them or otherwise be any type of BLM "friend". I will fight them in every way possible to include legal means as well as civil dis-obedience and through pressure on my legislature and the Whitehouse." This will include every single thing that the BLM attempts to do.

Ken

Hunter
10-01-2006, 11:27 AM
Sorry about handing off that rock to you the way it happened, hope your back will be better soon.


Ah man! So it was you!

Ah, just kidding. It was my fault, I should have known better. I saw the rock and took it anyway. 1, I misjudged how heavy it would be after dealing with rocks down in the wash, and they were lighter. 2, I should have taken another step closer, 3, Simnply could have said, 'Ah, no" :)

I do feel better today. Nice thing is the wife banned me from doing back yard work today. Yeah, I put up a fight.....not. Foot ball for me today

Hunter
10-01-2006, 11:41 AM
Matt,
That certainly is my concern. And that concern was heightened considerably yesterday when I saw where the last "landing and view area is. It will be located ~5-10' of an obstacle by-pass trail.
I voiced my concern in another thread earlier and I was not going to participate in this because of the trail closure fears. I listened to what the BLM directors response was to Sandee and Chris (no closure of Woodpecker) and I thought, "OK. I will take his word for it this time." And I will participate and help with this, based solely on Patrick Madigans word. I'm using it as sort of litmus test.
If we get some BS from the BLM as you mentioned and/or part of the trail or all of it is closed, my response will be:
"I will never trust the BLM or any of it's employees again. I will never assist them, help them or otherwise be any type of BLM "friend". I will fight them in every way possible to include legal means as well as civil dis-obedience and through pressure on my legislature and the Whitehouse." This will include every single thing that the BLM attempts to do.

Ken


Actually, the "landing" is closer than that. Roger Thomas (I think, Nice 94 Blue YJ) and were the ones that actually built the landing down by the by-pass road. When we were all discussing it, mostly the greenies and the BLM folks. I stepped up and remimded them of the traffic patterns that occur here and that we should move the landing up a bit. I went into a good explantion and everyone bought in to it. I was surprised as even Fransico seemed to agree. Ironically, the path cleared by the 4wheelers was seemed by the others (being a greenies) as a benifit.

Roger was talking to Fransico ealier in the day when he was laying out the path. There was one large rock out-cropping that he made mention in his plans for the path. Roger explained that the rock was used as a winch anchor point and was important to us. Fransico agreed and said that he would make sure it was left alone.

Over all, I felt very postive about the postion toward us. I was certinaly expecting worse. I am not worried about them useing this to eventully close the trail. If they did, it would blow up as the biggest stink in their faces that would have HUGE repercussions. Simply, the fact was that we did 95% of the work since we made up 95% of the work force that day. In a way, I see it as Fransico made a deal with the Devil by useing us. Sorta live by the gun, or die by the gun.

I know he was shocked by the numbers that turned out. Seemed like everytime a guy walked up, Fransico greeted them and said glad you could make it... Then the 4Wheeler would beem and say, "well, better wait, there are bunch more coming"

I remember when one of the TOR guys walked up and said, "15 more coming"... I think he almost dropped his clipboard.

georgia
10-01-2006, 12:25 PM
Actually, the "landing" is closer than that. Roger Thomas (I think, Nice 94 Blue YJ) and were the ones that actually built the landing down by the by-pass road. When we were all discussing it, mostly the greenies and the BLM folks. I stepped up and remimded them of the traffic patterns that occur here and that we should move the landing up a bit. I went into a good explantion and everyone bought in to it. I was surprised as even Fransico seemed to agree. Ironically, the path cleared by the 4wheelers was seemed by the others (being a greenies) as a benifit.

Roger was talking to Fransico ealier in the day when he was laying out the path. There was one large rock out-cropping that he made mention in his plans for the path. Roger explained that the rock was used as a winch anchor point and was important to us. Fransico agreed and said that he would make sure it was left alone.

Over all, I felt very postive about the postion toward us. I was certinaly expecting worse. I am not worried about them useing this to eventully close the trail. If they did, it would blow up as the biggest stink in their faces that would have HUGE repercussions. Simply, the fact was that we did 95% of the work since we made up 95% of the work force that day. In a way, I see it as Fransico made a deal with the Devil by useing us. Sorta live by the gun, or die by the gun.

I know he was shocked by the numbers that turned out. Seemed like everytime a guy walked up, Fransico greeted them and said glad you could make it... Then the 4Wheeler would beem and say, "well, better wait, there are bunch more coming"

I remember when one of the TOR guys walked up and said, "15 more coming"... I think he almost dropped his clipboard.

Yea, that was me that made introduced TOR...the look on his face was pretty funny...

Sandee McCullen
10-01-2006, 02:19 PM
First: THANKS TO ALL !!!!! If I could I'd hug each and every one of you. I'm proud to be a friend to you all.

Second: Please realize the Lower Woodpecker project and the Martinez Canyon project are two separate issues. Neither Chris or I have been told "lower Woodpecker would not be closed". This was in reference to Martinez Canyon only.

The LW project was very "iffy" from the beginning..... lots of issues from behind closed doors but you all came through... AGAIN.....
I know the first thought is "why would OHV help develop a non-motorized (GREENIE) staging/trail/cultural site when we all know the intent is to try closing Lower Woodpecker to OHV. This has been Francisco's plan for a number of years. It showed through the inventory and evaluation plans; it showed when he approached the new BLM Tucson District Manager with questions of "how to close L. Woodpecker; and again when the Field Manager arrived. For as hard as it is for me to say "there are times I feel sorry for anyone from BLM"........ I have to admit I certainly wouldn't want to be in Patrick Madigan's shoes. (Tucson Field Manager) He came to Tucson from Montecello UT having developed a quality ATV trail system. He's OHV positive, he understands the needs, and was able to work within an area VERY GREEN. I'm finding he's not being told the entire "history" of the Florence Junction area or the part of OHV. Francisco was truly betting OHV wouldn't show thusly he could use this against us when actual "designation" comes about.

DON"T relax and anywhere near believe OHV participation in this project is ensuring OHV use through here. It will continue to be a battle but this certainly gives us STANDING. They now have to produce SCIENTIFIC DATA to close it to OHV. They cannot show damage or "significant" impact. The only thing they're going on is the Indians have determined it's "SACRED"......... motorized vehicles "break their aura with the lands" if we drive by. The other side............ when's the last time you've seen the Indians out there within a religious ceremony? What we MUST do is take extra care in keeping ALL oil "spots" and/or spills cleaned up. Don't give them the smallest thing to hold over us.

Please remember........... Martinez Canyon is under the same issues.

THANKS for your reports including who did what and who was there.................. It was interesting to hear where they positioned the kiosk/sign. I was specifically told (with witnesses) nothing would block the by-pass on the right side of the canyon. .................... "Don't kill the cactus?????? These guys really don't have a life!!!!

azrubyman
10-01-2006, 04:13 PM
First: THANKS TO ALL !!!!! If I could I'd hug each and every one of you. I'm proud to be a friend to you all.

Second: Please realize the Lower Woodpecker project and the Martinez Canyon project are two separate issues. Neither Chris or I have been told "lower Woodpecker would not be closed". This was in reference to Martinez Canyon only.

The LW project was very "iffy" from the beginning..... lots of issues from behind closed doors but you all came through... AGAIN.....
I know the first thought is "why would OHV help develop a non-motorized (GREENIE) staging/trail/cultural site when we all know the intent is to try closing Lower Woodpecker to OHV. This has been Francisco's plan for a number of years. It showed through the inventory and evaluation plans; it showed when he approached the new BLM Tucson District Manager with questions of "how to close L. Woodpecker; and again when the Field Manager arrived. For as hard as it is for me to say "there are times I feel sorry for anyone from BLM"........ I have to admit I certainly wouldn't want to be in Patrick Madigan's shoes. (Tucson Field Manager) He came to Tucson from Montecello UT having developed a quality ATV trail system. He's OHV positive, he understands the needs, and was able to work within an area VERY GREEN. I'm finding he's not being told the entire "history" of the Florence Junction area or the part of OHV. Francisco was truly betting OHV wouldn't show thusly he could use this against us when actual "designation" comes about.

DON"T relax and anywhere near believe OHV participation in this project is ensuring OHV use through here. It will continue to be a battle but this certainly gives us STANDING. They now have to produce SCIENTIFIC DATA to close it to OHV. They cannot show damage or "significant" impact. The only thing they're going on is the Indians have determined it's "SACRED"......... motorized vehicles "break their aura with the lands" if we drive by. The other side............ when's the last time you've seen the Indians out there within a religious ceremony? What we MUST do is take extra care in keeping ALL oil "spots" and/or spills cleaned up. Don't give them the smallest thing to hold over us.

Please remember........... Martinez Canyon is under the same issues.

THANKS for your reports including who did what and who was there.................. It was interesting to hear where they positioned the kiosk/sign. I was specifically told (with witnesses) nothing would block the by-pass on the right side of the canyon. .................... "Don't kill the cactus?????? These guys really don't have a life!!!!


Sorry Sandee. It was comments like yours below that I copied from this thread http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/showthread.php?t=15838&highlight=lower+woodpecker this that led me to believe Patrick said he was keeping Lower Woodpecker open
Ken

Quote:
Ken, Sometimes actions cannot be stated in "words". Patrick is locked within "government bureauracry" is never speedy but he is standing firm behind decision to NOT close Martinez and Lower Woodpecker. Unless we chill out and support him he will be overpowered by his "interdisiplinary team" of which our non-friend Francisco is part of. So far Patrick has not heard much of what has truly happened within that office and he's just now beginning to realize the half truths or outright lies he's been told. He IS listening to us. He IS working for US. In the end we probably won't keep EVERYTHING but if we show reasonable support and legitimate reasons for the need of our existing trails or connecting of some to make loops he will support us. He is probably the only person in the Tucson Field Office that truly supports the OHV Strategy from D.C. in 2001. This is more than we get from most field offices. I'm asking you get involved and find out for yourself how this process works. It's not necessarily fun and it IS frustrating but we're make huge steps forward.................... we cannot afford to tick these guys off. It it comes to having to defend his staff over us.......... most likely he will. Be positive, honest and respectful will get us more than demands.

Hang in there................ I truly believe we can win.
__________________
Sandee

Quote

Sandee McCullen
10-01-2006, 05:42 PM
Ken,
My apologies back to you........... the comment re: "not closing Martinez or Lower Woodpecker" was out of context by me. Patrick has stated "Martinez Canyon will not be closed"........ meaning "at this time or within an emergency closure as tried by Francisco". Lower Woodpecker simply will not be closed "at this time". Patrick has not stated this specifically. The District Manager has said this and Patrick is backing the statement. He's planning on doing evaluations leading to designations. This is where Lower Woodpecker stands to be closed!!! FRANCISCO's plans, as well as several others from the Tucson office, WANT LOWER WOODPECKER CLOSED and they will continue to strive for this.

The Tucson office did not get funding to start their Land Use Plan for this area but since all the inventory has been done as well as evaluations submitting 3 alternatives to the BLM office, they are planning on moving forward with what they call: "Activity Plans" for the FJ area north of Calvin-Florence Hwy to Hwy 60. They now want a special Task Team formed to work within the MGCP to develop a Preferred Alternative. They have a basic "map" of trails that the 3 alternatives agreed on. They want the task team to identify "designation" for the remaining trails..... this means: Martinez, Lower Woodpecker, Woodys Wash, OverDose, Broken Ankle, the entrance to Upper Woodpecker, and several others. These are the major ones that G&F and the enviros WANT CLOSED to OHV. If we don't stay involved we will lose these trails! What I need in the next week or so are names of individuals that know Florence Junction Trails like the back of their hand and can take the time to spend 2-3 full 8 hour day weekends to put this preferred alternative together. G&F are pushing hard for BLM to develop a MAP reflecting the ONLY trails OHV can use. This preferred alternative will be that map!!! G&F and every environmental group will be involved so we need to have "expert" people on our side. I'm not sure how many OHV persons we'll be allowed but I know there will be at least two for 4x4; 2 for ATV's and 2 for MC. I have maps and we can meet and "know our facts" prior to the workshops.
Anyone interested please contact me ASAP.

Once again Ken, my apologies for not being more precise. Sometimes the issue roll together. Attitudes at each other certainly are not to our advantage. I do appreciate each of you for whatever you can contribute to our cause. We need to be united in our goals.

LOWTECH
10-01-2006, 06:38 PM
-------------- Yikes----------------

LOWTECH
10-01-2006, 06:39 PM
GREAT TO SEE SANDEE THERE ................. oh that's right she wasn't there.

k7mto
10-01-2006, 07:06 PM
GREAT TO SEE SANDEE THERE ................. oh that's right she wasn't there.

Like she doesn't do enough for us already, she has to come out there and do physical labor too?

LOWTECH
10-01-2006, 07:08 PM
Yep

Hunter
10-01-2006, 07:12 PM
GREAT TO SEE SANDEE THERE ................. oh that's right she wasn't there.

Please tell me you did not just take a cheap shot at Sandee not being present at Woodpecker on Saturday? That woman has sat through more meetings, more hours of politcal bull****, written more emails, organized more events, spent more of her personal time and money and dealt with more people at the BLM than everyone on this board COMBINED. .

Triple-XJ
10-01-2006, 07:21 PM
GREAT TO SEE SANDEE THERE ................. oh that's right she wasn't there.

I hope that was a JOKE!

and if it was, its not funny :(

azcharlie
10-01-2006, 07:32 PM
GREAT TO SEE SANDEE THERE ................. oh that's right she wasn't there.

:( :( :(

k7mto
10-01-2006, 07:36 PM
Based on the post he made in another thread, he apparently has something against Sandee...


Doh, forgot about the Woodpecker project Saturday, think I may do it instead, (even if Sandee is involved :rolleyes: ).

jeep4offrd
10-01-2006, 07:56 PM
Lowtech
Are you kidding me. Even if you were a close friend of the family, this would'nt be funny. If this is your way at making a joke. You need to read up on delivering a joke. No one's going to find anything funny about this.

Thank god Sandee knows better than to even bat an eye at your insensitivity.

LOWTECH
10-01-2006, 08:55 PM
NO JOKE ........ mean what I say

LOWTECH
10-01-2006, 08:57 PM
PS --------- don't care what you think eather

Antman
10-01-2006, 09:05 PM
NO JOKE ........ mean what I say





:( :( :( :confused:

k7mto
10-01-2006, 09:33 PM
He is entitled to his own opinion, even though most of us find it hard to understand.

Kudos to LOWTECH for showing up and helping out.

azrubyman
10-01-2006, 11:03 PM
Ken,
My apologies back to you........... the comment re: "not closing Martinez or Lower Woodpecker" was out of context by me. Patrick has stated "Martinez Canyon will not be closed"........ meaning "at this time or within an emergency closure as tried by Francisco". Lower Woodpecker simply will not be closed "at this time". Patrick has not stated this specifically. The District Manager has said this and Patrick is backing the statement. He's planning on doing evaluations leading to designations. This is where Lower Woodpecker stands to be closed!!! FRANCISCO's plans, as well as several others from the Tucson office, WANT LOWER WOODPECKER CLOSED and they will continue to strive for this.

The Tucson office did not get funding to start their Land Use Plan for this area but since all the inventory has been done as well as evaluations submitting 3 alternatives to the BLM office, they are planning on moving forward with what they call: "Activity Plans" for the FJ area north of Calvin-Florence Hwy to Hwy 60. They now want a special Task Team formed to work within the MGCP to develop a Preferred Alternative. They have a basic "map" of trails that the 3 alternatives agreed on. They want the task team to identify "designation" for the remaining trails..... this means: Martinez, Lower Woodpecker, Woodys Wash, OverDose, Broken Ankle, the entrance to Upper Woodpecker, and several others. These are the major ones that G&F and the enviros WANT CLOSED to OHV. If we don't stay involved we will lose these trails! What I need in the next week or so are names of individuals that know Florence Junction Trails like the back of their hand and can take the time to spend 2-3 full 8 hour day weekends to put this preferred alternative together. G&F are pushing hard for BLM to develop a MAP reflecting the ONLY trails OHV can use. This preferred alternative will be that map!!! G&F and every environmental group will be involved so we need to have "expert" people on our side. I'm not sure how many OHV persons we'll be allowed but I know there will be at least two for 4x4; 2 for ATV's and 2 for MC. I have maps and we can meet and "know our facts" prior to the workshops.
Anyone interested please contact me ASAP.

Once again Ken, my apologies for not being more precise. Sometimes the issue roll together. Attitudes at each other certainly are not to our advantage. I do appreciate each of you for whatever you can contribute to our cause. We need to be united in our goals.

Sandee,
Thanks for the clarification Sandee.
Ken

azrubyman
10-01-2006, 11:03 PM
Ken,
My apologies back to you........... the comment re: "not closing Martinez or Lower Woodpecker" was out of context by me. Patrick has stated "Martinez Canyon will not be closed"........ meaning "at this time or within an emergency closure as tried by Francisco". Lower Woodpecker simply will not be closed "at this time". Patrick has not stated this specifically. The District Manager has said this and Patrick is backing the statement. He's planning on doing evaluations leading to designations. This is where Lower Woodpecker stands to be closed!!! FRANCISCO's plans, as well as several others from the Tucson office, WANT LOWER WOODPECKER CLOSED and they will continue to strive for this.

The Tucson office did not get funding to start their Land Use Plan for this area but since all the inventory has been done as well as evaluations submitting 3 alternatives to the BLM office, they are planning on moving forward with what they call: "Activity Plans" for the FJ area north of Calvin-Florence Hwy to Hwy 60. They now want a special Task Team formed to work within the MGCP to develop a Preferred Alternative. They have a basic "map" of trails that the 3 alternatives agreed on. They want the task team to identify "designation" for the remaining trails..... this means: Martinez, Lower Woodpecker, Woodys Wash, OverDose, Broken Ankle, the entrance to Upper Woodpecker, and several others. These are the major ones that G&F and the enviros WANT CLOSED to OHV. If we don't stay involved we will lose these trails! What I need in the next week or so are names of individuals that know Florence Junction Trails like the back of their hand and can take the time to spend 2-3 full 8 hour day weekends to put this preferred alternative together. G&F are pushing hard for BLM to develop a MAP reflecting the ONLY trails OHV can use. This preferred alternative will be that map!!! G&F and every environmental group will be involved so we need to have "expert" people on our side. I'm not sure how many OHV persons we'll be allowed but I know there will be at least two for 4x4; 2 for ATV's and 2 for MC. I have maps and we can meet and "know our facts" prior to the workshops.
Anyone interested please contact me ASAP.

Once again Ken, my apologies for not being more precise. Sometimes the issue roll together. Attitudes at each other certainly are not to our advantage. I do appreciate each of you for whatever you can contribute to our cause. We need to be united in our goals.


Thanks for the clarification Sandee.
Ken

RufftyTuffty
10-02-2006, 07:23 AM
They want the task team to identify "designation" for the remaining trails..... this means: Martinez, Lower Woodpecker, Woodys Wash, OverDose, Broken Ankle, the entrance to Upper Woodpecker, and several others. These are the major ones that G&F and the enviros WANT CLOSED to OHV.

[Off Topic] This has got to be the biggest farse i've ever heard.

The whole of FJ has been excavated, smashed open, roads cut and generally ripped apart by legal mining and they are picking on us!!! :confused: :mad:

~Mike

roger
10-02-2006, 07:46 AM
Wow, what a disappointing thread. A great job was done - lots of OHV folks with red shirts and green shirts working side by side (except for a couple greenies who thought they were supervisor). But instead of just acknowledging the cooperation and work that was done, there's bickering among our own and there's a cheap shot at Sandee.

FWIW, I let Fransisco give me a tour of the area as I wan't really familiar with it from an archealogical perspective. He pointed out all of the petroglyphs and the grinding holes in the bedrock. There are petroglyphs on both sides of the canyon. Most of them are higher up on the canyon walls but some of them are down near the canyon floor and these can be damaged by vehicles climbing or scraping along the walls. There are also some petroglyphs on a couple large boulders on the south side of the canyon. Judging from the scrap marks, these boulders are apparently used as an obstacle by some. It seems to me that there might be room for some compromise from OHV and some mitigation from BLM. If BLM can sign or "fence off" two areas, that would protect the petroglyphs that are in danger of damage from vehicles. At the same time, it would still leave most of the canyon floor accessible to vehicles. I don't consider the grinding holes in the bedrock as being at risk for any kind of damage from vehicles passing over them.

Of course, Fransico mentioned talking to various Indian tribes and, as someone else pointed out, there could be an issue of the "sacredness" of the area. Personally, I thought a sacred area was an area used for burials or worship - not just any place someone happened to live, wash clothes, grind corn, or take a dump. Maybe the meaning of the petroglyphs indicates the meaning of the area?

My1stJeep
10-02-2006, 09:00 AM
Ken,
My apologies back to you........... the comment re: "not closing Martinez or Lower Woodpecker" was out of context by me. Patrick has stated "Martinez Canyon will not be closed"........ meaning "at this time or within an emergency closure as tried by Francisco". Lower Woodpecker simply will not be closed "at this time". Patrick has not stated this specifically. The District Manager has said this and Patrick is backing the statement. He's planning on doing evaluations leading to designations. This is where Lower Woodpecker stands to be closed!!! FRANCISCO's plans, as well as several others from the Tucson office, WANT LOWER WOODPECKER CLOSED and they will continue to strive for this.

The Tucson office did not get funding to start their Land Use Plan for this area but since all the inventory has been done as well as evaluations submitting 3 alternatives to the BLM office, they are planning on moving forward with what they call: "Activity Plans" for the FJ area north of Calvin-Florence Hwy to Hwy 60. They now want a special Task Team formed to work within the MGCP to develop a Preferred Alternative. They have a basic "map" of trails that the 3 alternatives agreed on. They want the task team to identify "designation" for the remaining trails..... this means: Martinez, Lower Woodpecker, Woodys Wash, OverDose, Broken Ankle, the entrance to Upper Woodpecker, and several others. These are the major ones that G&F and the enviros WANT CLOSED to OHV. If we don't stay involved we will lose these trails! What I need in the next week or so are names of individuals that know Florence Junction Trails like the back of their hand and can take the time to spend 2-3 full 8 hour day weekends to put this preferred alternative together. G&F are pushing hard for BLM to develop a MAP reflecting the ONLY trails OHV can use. This preferred alternative will be that map!!! G&F and every environmental group will be involved so we need to have "expert" people on our side. I'm not sure how many OHV persons we'll be allowed but I know there will be at least two for 4x4; 2 for ATV's and 2 for MC. I have maps and we can meet and "know our facts" prior to the workshops.
Anyone interested please contact me ASAP.

Once again Ken, my apologies for not being more precise. Sometimes the issue roll together. Attitudes at each other certainly are not to our advantage. I do appreciate each of you for whatever you can contribute to our cause. We need to be united in our goals.


This part may be old news, but when I talked to Patrick we said this would not be used as a reason to close LWP. I know he is ultimately held to higher parts of the government and something other than this walking path could come up as a reason for closure, but when talking with him I was told this would not be used as a reason to close it.

My1stJeep
10-02-2006, 09:09 AM
I would also like to thank everyone from every club who took the time and money out of their lives and wallets to make this trip and help. Things like this are going to make a difference down the stretch.

I too can't believe how we have taken such a positive event and amongst ourselves turned on one another, I don't know maybe it was just the heat. Either way let try to keep this as the positive event it was.

Lowtech, thanks for going, but taking cheaps shots at someone who in one weekend does more for keeping lands open for you and I to wheel on than most do in a year and in many cases more than people do in a life time is just plain crazy. Not sure what you have against here, but I know for a fact she was at other land use meetings Saturday, helping to take other issues in other areas. She was not off in cancun sitting on the beach enjoying a cold beverage and taking on the sun rays. While not out there with you, she was still doing the same thing you were just on a different front. Might want to know the facts before stroking those keys.

etropic
10-02-2006, 10:01 AM
Personally, I thought a sacred area was an area used for burials or worship - not just any place someone happened to live, wash clothes, grind corn, or take a dump. Maybe the meaning of the petroglyphs indicates the meaning of the area?


HAHA my wife said the SAME thing while we were down there !!

Whow says that this is sacred? Maybe they drew some pictures while taking a stinky **** !

I can tell you who DIDN'T say anything... All the native americans that were NOT there. The only one complaining about it being sacred was Jane (blm) and she wasn't much of an indian.

Also...

There is no Kiosk at the bottom of the hill.

There are THREE sign posts 1/2 way down the hill and the main kiosk back down conttonwood road at the crest above woodpecker.

Hunter
10-02-2006, 10:09 AM
Low Tech can hold what ever thought he wants. If he wants to go against the grain, so be it. His life, his actions, his path.


Getting this thread back on track, lets enjoy it eh? We have alot to be proud of and be happy about. We as club put up a good showing whic not only for us should feel good, we made one hell of a statement to the BLM folks. We showed that we cared, we will compromise, we will work for a better life for all, that We MATTER. In my mind, it just made it that much harder for him to put us in the ground when we can say... "Hey, remember Woodpecker.... who came to dig your holes." Personally, if I had been Franisco and wanted to really keep us out of the loop, I would not have had us out there at all. Just for the reasons above.

We found out that there is another group with plenty of drive to make a difference (that would be the Tucson Off Road guys) and if anything....that show me the 4x4 community is getting stronger, better connected and aware of the strides we need to make to make a difference. Yes, it was a small step foward...but one I like to see none the less. OK, fine, cal it a warm fuzzy. [:D]

dragon51
10-02-2006, 10:22 AM
That was one of the biggest things that our club Tucson Off Road wanted to show, is that were not just another club who really just don't give a dam. WE wanted to show that off there are people out there who do enjoy wheeling are willing to work to keep our sport thriving so that not only we are able to enjoy this wonderful sport but our children had the same chance to do the same.

We also are trying to change the general public?s onion about 4 wheelers that were not all a bunch of redneck out there just destroying property, but we do care and were willing to take action to also help protect our land, and our future in this sport.

TinyMan
10-02-2006, 10:33 AM
Hey leave us rednecks out of this, lol, there are some of us who care. Although it was fun trying to not get thrown off the trailer's spare tire with Georgia's driving.

p.s. Just for the record I was the second Jeep with Georgia, for the lunch time run up to the first obstacle.

azrubyman
10-02-2006, 11:01 AM
Low Tech can hold what ever thought he wants. If he wants to go against the grain, so be it. His life, his actions, his path.


Getting this thread back on track, lets enjoy it eh? We have alot to be proud of and be happy about. We as club put up a good showing whic not only for us should feel good, we made one hell of a statement to the BLM folks. We showed that we cared, we will compromise, we will work for a better life for all, that We MATTER. In my mind, it just made it that much harder for him to put us in the ground when we can say... "Hey, remember Woodpecker.... who came to dig your holes." Personally, if I had been Franisco and wanted to really keep us out of the loop, I would not have had us out there at all. Just for the reasons above.

We found out that there is another group with plenty of drive to make a difference (that would be the Tucson Off Road guys) and if anything....that show me the 4x4 community is getting stronger, better connected and aware of the strides we need to make to make a difference. Yes, it was a small step foward...but one I like to see none the less. OK, fine, cal it a warm fuzzy. [:D]


Well said!
Thx,
Ken

1BLKJP
10-02-2006, 05:00 PM
Please everyone let me echo Sandee and Chris's comments on this project. Thank you very very much (Although I probably won't hug you :D) for everyone's participation in this event. I haven't had the opportunity to speak with Francisco yet on his thoughts from Saturday, but I do have a message into him about it. I know that some of you that had talked to me previously couldn't make it for one reason or another and that is completely understandable. And yet we "OHV" still managed to deliver about 25 bodies to work on this project. I couldn't have asked for anymore. Thank you all again.

I'm also sorry that people have to read thru so much negativity to find the bright spots of this experience. This is what they want from us people. To have us bickering between ourselves. It's gone on too long in the OHV communities. What we need now is to stand up together and unite as ONE OHV voice to protect the lands that we enjoy recreating on. Whether you are from Tucson or Phoenix, AZVJC, Rockrats, Rough Riders, etc.....whether your drive, ride, or both to recreate. Let's work on accentuating the positives of what we can bring to the table instead of pushing forward with every little negative thing we can find. Believe me the greenies do plenty of that with us already. If you want to post something about a project or trail that we are working on with an agency I implore you to think twice about what you write. To think twice if you want to bash any of our own people for helping all that they can for our cause. Especially when these thoughts are being put into a very "Public" forum like the VJC.

roger
10-02-2006, 10:04 PM
Just to clarify about the landing down near the bypass road, if you have to take the bypass, you don't belong on the trail!

:eek:

Just kidding. Everyone settle down. :D

Actually, Hunter and I made sure the landing didn't extend out into the bypass road. Of course, the landing didn't end up as big as Fransisco wanted either. ;) There shouldn't be any issues unless someone purposely goes out of their way to drive up on the landing. :rolleyes:

Also, just to clear the air about what I previously posted, in no way did I intend to offend any native Americans with my comments about what is considered sacred. Rather, I'd be suspicious of the BLM (or certain members thereof) taking it upon themselves to label the area as sacred to justify their wants. I was sincere in my feeling that some compromise could appease all parties and in my question about the meaning of the petroglyphs providing an indication of what the area was or was used for.

-Roger

DFRacing
10-03-2006, 07:29 AM
GREAT TO SEE SANDEE THERE ................. oh that's right she wasn't there.

You have know idea the time she puts in on land issues. It is a full time job for her and she does not get a penny for it.

So I would appreciate if you keep your SMART ***** comments to yourself.;)

macinyart
10-03-2006, 08:01 AM
From two thousand miles away, literally, it sounds like you guys did a great job. I was bit disheartened by the negative thoughts expressed on the topic however. But on to the job, we need clarity here. It sounds as if Francisco was impressed by the number of Jeepers who showed up, no matter to me where they came from. We must keep this up so that he gets ongoing positive input from us. He is perceived to want to close LW (why?) therefore since this old adage is workable: A poor excuse is just as good as a good excuse if you want to do something, it is important that we give him no solid reasons to close the trails. This also goes for the so called "greenie" contingent. Whether they like it or not, they will have to acknowledge our presence since it seems our group did most of the work. And if we continue to do this we will be ahead. I see some of this attitude developing about the Coves area. As far as Sandee's part in this, I must assure you that she is our pipeline into the bureaucratic workings of these issues. This is where the decisions are being made that impact us all and we need someone there to speak for us. It is not necessary for her to "be all" and she need not move rocks to be effective. She puts in more time than the rest of us put together. Bureaucratic meetings are " hard time" and most of us, me included, simply wouldn't do it. Sandee, keep up the good work. I too would like to know who decides what is "sacred" ground. Further I didn't know that there was anyone who could decipher the petroglyph to allow interpretation of the purpose of any given area. I am pretty sure that no one alive today can really read these fascinating graphics. Let's stay alive on this issue. Thanks to all who helped. :)

1BLKJP
10-03-2006, 03:58 PM
I had an opporunity to hear from Francisco today briefly as he was only in the office for a few minutes due to some issues with his family that will put him out of the office quite a bit in the next few weeks.

He however was thrilled with the turnout that they had for this project. He wanted me to thank you all again. They were able to have double the participants than they were orginially expecting.

These are the things that we can do to help sway his intentions toward us. You all working with him out there to help balance the cultural site with the needs of the trail was perfect. If he just wanted to automatically close it down then he would've told you just to do it the way he wanted to. But he chose to listen and take your suggestions. Chris and I have had some very good conversation with him lately and he is very willing to start having us involved in the mediation of things that occur or are reported to them by others. This is a giant step for us in regards to the Tucson BLM office. With your responsible recreation, involvement, and hard work we can and will save the trails we love.

Thanks again folks.

LOWTECH
10-03-2006, 06:49 PM
You have know idea the time she puts in on land issues. It is a full time job for her and she does not get a penny for it.

So I would appreciate if you keep your SMART ***** comments to yourself.;)

Don't care what you think

DFRacing
10-03-2006, 09:17 PM
Don't care what you think

Some people.:eek: :(

LOWTECH
10-03-2006, 09:52 PM
Some people.:eek: :(

JUST WHAT I WAS THINK'en