Trail Leadership skills... some bashing...thick skin required

[Skii4x4]

I want to start off by saying that I have been on many trail run and this was the first trail that I have ever been very upset at the leader about. The leader of this trail was Jason De Monto from Airpark Jeep Sales.

Jason First started off by posting to go on a trail run for Sat night from Barlett Lake to Beeline Highway via FR-89 which is rated at a 3.0 and an est length of 3-4 hours. The Meeting time for the run was 7:30 pm with a leave time by 8:00 pm. I arrived at a couple minutes before 8 pm. When then got a call that 2 jeeps were running late and we waited an additional 15-30 minutes which is understandable. We then started out for the trail.

Jason could not find where the trail started. We were driving and hiking around in the dark until we finally found the water crossing. After everyone got across the water we waited for someone that we heard on the CB. After that person meet up with us it was already 9:30 or later and we hadnt even gotten to the trail yet. (this was going to be a long night)

Jason said he had done this trail 3 times before but he couldnt seem to find where to go, so we had to keep stopping to make sure we were going the right way.

Once we found the right way to go it would be a continous drive for 5 minutes and then stop, drive for 5 minutes, if we were lucky, and stop. Jason had no idea of the flow of the trail and where and when were good stopping points. He has an unlimted jeep with a big lift, 37s, and front and rear locker. He was more scared and getting hung up more than the 3 new people with stock jeeps on the run.

Now dont think I just bad mouthing his driving. I am saying this because and a "Leader" you should know the trail and have good driving skill for the trail. He had neither and required more spotting and stopping than anyone else which lengthened the trail tremendously.

When I signed up for this trail I was thinking a nice easy 3-4 hour cruise. I wasnt expected a trail ride like when you are in high school just going out cruising looking for cool spots. I expected an organized ride.

Jason would drive way in front of everyone else and just sit and wait. There were 3 stock vehicles with drivers that have never been on trails. HE DID NOT HELP VEHICLES HUNG UP IN ROCKS!!! He just sat on the sidelines and watched. There was no organization on this trail run. I have never been so unhappy about the performance of the trail leader.

When were were finally approaching the very end of the trail as the sun was rising at 6:30 in the morning, He decided to drive off fast and we couldnt find the way out of the trail. We, everyone besides Jason, made the wrong turn because the trail "leader" didnt know how to lead. After we back tracked and found him he said on the CB "Does anyone need to air up or reconnect, I already have." Which sums it up. instead of looking for us where the rest of the group went he didnt care what happened at all and just decided to reconnect his sway bar and wait. As another person on the trail said, "Jason is just immature in his leading style."

I ended up getting home at 8 am this morning, 7-8 hours after the correct ending time. I understand being out the late for a reason, AKA breaking, but not for poor leadership.

I will never go on a trail run lead by Jason De Monto from Airpark Jeep Sales again. It was a fun trail that I would do again but he was the worst leader ever!

Kevin

PS this was also brought up in another post about the same run, see below:
http://virtualjeepclub.com/showthread.php?t=16756

[Skii4x4]

Just to add on, since I have posted this I have had multiple people send me PMs agreeing with what I wrote

[PMFG!ItsaGP]

Im sorry , but....
http://www.theinterpretersfriend.com/misc/humr/laugh.gif

[Renob]

Just to add on, since I have posted this I have had multiple people send me PMs agreeing with what I wrote If they post up they may end up on the black list and not receive the 25% discount on parts. This is important when you are being charged 45% over MSRP.

[Spongebob]

WOW! I'm sorry that you guys had a bad time! That makes for an awful long night.

[desertdawg]

That's definitely not good leading. I beleive if you volunteer to lead a trail run you have a certain responsibility to make sure everybody is okay and not left behind stranded. You need to maintain radio contact with the rest of the group and pace yourself accordingly. Make sure everybody makes the proper turns, etc. If somebody does not have a CB, put that guy in between people who do have CB's. Common sense, nothing too complicated here.

If you don't want the responsibility, don't post a trip and just wheel with a few of your buddies that are on the same level as you and can keep up with you.

[Allen]

That's definitely not good leading. I beleive if you volunteer to lead a trail run you have a certain responsibility to make sure everybody is okay and not left behind stranded. You need to maintain radio contact with the rest of the group and pace yourself accordingly. Make sure everybody makes the proper turns, etc. If somebody does not have a CB, put that guy in between people who do have CB's. Common sense, nothing too complicated here.

If you don't want the responsibility, don't post a trip and just wheel with a few of your buddies that are on the same level as you and can keep up with you.

x2 dawg!

A leaders job is to make sure all goes well.... or at least try! I'd be real upset if I went on a trail run and the leader left me behind!

I've led trips thru trails that were real hard on the stock rigs running them. I did a pre trip inspection on all rigs and required attachment points, straps, and a cb to attend. I also appointed the tailgunner to take up the rear and make sure no one was left behind.

If you dont want the responsability - dont lead......ride in the middle!

Jason: If this was your first trip leading then I'm sure you'll learn somthing from these posts. Dont take it too hard. We all have made some sort of goof-up! Trip leader isnt just the guy in front, he's the guide and trail expert on trail day!

just my $.02

[Wind_Danzer]

This is not his first trip leading, there have been a few and most have told me similar stories.

[Skii4x4]

In some defense to him he did make sure someone at the back had a CB but that doesnt help if he goes so far ahead you cant reach him.

[Jdemonto@Airpark Jeep Sales]

Kevin, this is a trail section not a I hate jason demonto section!!!! It was obvious the whole night that you felt like you wanted to be the leader..so I let you!!! I am out to have fun and a good time..Not to get into a pissing match on the trail. That said Your very child like comments don't belong here or on this clubs board...maybe you should join a toyota club??????? Just a thought, if you don't like the way I lead..don't come!!!!!! I stayed all the way till everyone was accounted for, nobody was left behind. This trail was overgrown and hard to find the water crossing because of little use..the trail was not the same and I am not going to prerun a trail just to rerun it the next day, I rather be surprised!!!!! I had a great time and most others thanked me for leading..for those who had a bad time sorry. On a side note rolling over my rig is not a option yet as I still make payments on it, when it gets paid off and I get more protection...I may wheel with less care and dis-reguard for my rig..until then I care...sorry you don't.

Jason

[Jdemonto@Airpark Jeep Sales]

For those who dont know me, I am new to this board(last year) I have been running trails with the azvjc for 2 years and lead becuase I want to wheel on a certain time or date and on occasion nice folks of this club join my trips and we wheel!!! Not my first trip and kevin may have left that out as he has been on my trips before.

[LOST TJ]

Geez. I waited all this time for your rebuttal and it sucked.

[Jdemonto@Airpark Jeep Sales]

Geez. I waited all this time for your rebuttal and it sucked.


rebuttal??? I am not big on adding fuel to the fire.....I think personal attacks on this board are not warrented and chose not to respond to kevin the same way he did to me....

Jason

[Triple-XJ]

Man, did you ever consider shrinking that avatar ad.?
Its a PITA to scroll side to side every time you post.

That said Your very child like comments don't belong here or on this clubs board...maybe you should join a toyota club???????
Jason


maybe you should join a toyota club???????
:confused: who's comment was that?
It seems like a cheap, childish remark. :rolleyes:

[DesertX04]

Jason, shrink the avatar.

[Jdemonto@Airpark Jeep Sales]

Wasn't a childish remark, but a statement. You don't see me on the toyota boards posting hate threads????

Whats wrong with a large avitar????? You know what they say about big avitars;)

[Antman]

Wasn't a childish remark, but a statement. You don't see me on the toyota boards posting hate threads????

Whats wrong with a large avitar????? You know what they say about big avitars;)

When I have to scroll to the left to hit the quote button, your avAtar is too big!

Your avAtar is out of whack..........:rolleyes: Give dialups a break. :)

[DesertX04]

Wasn't a childish remark, but a statement. You don't see me on the toyota boards posting hate threads????

Whats wrong with a large avitar????? You know what they say about big avitars;)

Telling someone to go away because you don't like what they say is childish. Embrace what's being said and learn from it.

The problem with a large avitar is that it's F'n annoying. You are getting a lot of complaints about it. Are you really going to force all of us to turn off the avitars when we're viewing posts?
http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/showthread.php?t=16663

[Joe West]

In your user control panel you can choose to turn ALL avatars off so you don't have to view any avatars :)


When I have to scroll to the left to hit the quote button, your avAtar is too big!

Your avAtar is out of whack..........:rolleyes: Give dialups a break. :)

[Antman]

In your user control panel you can choose to turn ALL avatars off so you don't have to view any avatars :)

Joe I don't wish to NOT view avatars. I just don't want to have to scroll the page to the right to see what someone wrote because their avatar is so damn big!. I do NOT have dialup and I have a 21" monitor, but that avatar is way too big. At least make it more square so we dont have to scroll off the edge.

[daniel]

I think his avatars is just to make sure that people know about hte jamboree.I do not remember his other one being large but this is one is sooooo BIG I ant see into the past:D:D:D:D:D

[Triple-XJ]

Telling someone to go away because you don't like what they say is childish. Embrace what's being said and learn from it.

The problem with a large avitar is that it's F'n annoying. You are getting a lot of complaints about it. Are you really going to force all of us to turn off the avitars when we're viewing posts?
http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/showthread.php?t=16663

thank you,
I didnt seem to get my point across.

[Antman]

I just put Jason in my ignore list. That takes care of it for me. :)

[Deviljeep]

Might be a setting somewhere....It's square for me, no having to scroll, never do unless someone posts a BIG pic. I'm on a little 15" monitor

[k7mto]

I don't know Jason personally, and I wasn't on the run, but it's clear there was miscommunication on this run in one form or another. I'm a bit surprised at Jason's response, however. I fully expected something more along the lines of "sorry for the confusion, as trip leader I accept responsibility and I'll learn from this and do a better job next time."

Bottom line - by posting a trip and assuming the leadership role (one can also post a trip and request a leader) one also assumes certain responsibilites, including, but not limited to, ensuring the group stays together, nobody gets lost, anyone needing assistance is provided such, everyone gets off the trail in one piece, etc.

[Jdemonto@Airpark Jeep Sales]

First I suck as leader and now my avitar is too big???????? You guys are the first to complain!!!!!! I'll shrink it to make just you guys happy..what else am I doing wrong???? Should I dress differently or paint my jeep blue becuase red is too bright??????? How about some of you guys volenteer too be trip leaders instead of complaining about me!!!:rolleyes:

Ps I will shrink my avitar for you guys that have not upgraded your computer since 1995!!!!:eek:

[westy]

In some defense, when you wheel at night on a trail that is prone to ever changing conditions you had better expect some issues to arise, especially if you are in stockish vehicles.
Anyone that knows anything about log corral, the verde and its crossings...well it can be a challenge to find the fords, let alone at night after monsoon season.

[danno]

If you don't want the responsibility, don't post a trip and just wheel with a few of your buddies that are on the same level as you and can keep up with you.

Yep, which is why you rarely see me posting runs here as the trail leader. Unfortunately my experience has not been with poor trail leaders but rather with horrible participants. I'd rather not take the responsibility... Unless I get paid.

[fatbob309]

In some defense, when you wheel at night on a trail that is prone to ever changing conditions you had better expect some issues to arise, especially if you are in stockish vehicles.


From reading all the post it didn't seem that the stock jeeps were the problem. I'm reading that Jason couldn't lead and then took off.

*****Oh and his avitar is to big and now thinks we all suck because we said so.******

[Jdemonto@Airpark Jeep Sales]

In some defense, when you wheel at night on a trail that is prone to ever changing conditions you had better expect some issues to arise, especially if you are in stockish vehicles.
Anyone that knows anything about log corral, the verde and its crossings...well it can be a challenge to find the fords, let alone at night after monsoon season.


AMEN

BTW I find my avitar best viewed with a 17" monitor and high speed!!! I tried to shrink it, but not sure if it worked right??? Is it smaller???;)

[westy]

From reading all the post it didn’t seem that the stock jeeps were the problem. I’m reading that Jason couldn’t lead and then took off.

Well if thats the case then thats not cool. I wasnt there so I cant say but IMO if you've got a problem with someone take it up with them personally and settle it. All this drama gets old and makes both sides look bad. :cool:

[Oldyeller]

BTW I find my avitar best viewed with a 17" monitor and high speed!!! I tried to shrink it, but not sure if it worked right??? Is it smaller???
Um, yeah, but now I can't read it on my 89 apple monitor, could you make it clearer, but smaller, and include more information in it? oh oh, and could you make the text at least 14 font so i can read it without my glasses?

[DesertX04]

AMEN

BTW I find my avitar best viewed with a 17" monitor and high speed!!! I tried to shrink it, but not sure if it worked right??? Is it smaller???;)

No, it's not smaller.

BTW, I have a 17" monitor at work and 19" at home, high speed everywhere. My home computer is 2 weeks old and it's a pos compared to my work computer. (1995?)

Didn't mean to pile on, but ya know, since we had your attention.

[Jdemonto@Airpark Jeep Sales]

From reading all the post it didn't seem that the stock jeeps were the problem. I'm reading that Jason couldn't lead and then took off.

*****Oh and his avitar is to big and now thinks we all suck because we said so.******

I never took off and left anyone or ever have unless I was not the leader. Kevin just got upset because he couldn't lead:rolleyes:

BTW this trail changes on a monthly basis and all those heavy flash floods took a toll on this one!!!! I am going to run again during the day and most likely not backwards!!

[Jdemonto@Airpark Jeep Sales]

There ya go if its still too big..sorry can't please everyone:)

BTW I am bored about reading about my self and people posting that weren't there.
BYE BYE:p

[fatbob309]

I never took off and left anyone or ever have unless I was not the leader. Kevin just got upset because he couldn't lead:rolleyes:

BTW this trail changes on a monthly basis and all those heavy flash floods took a toll on this one!!!! I am going to run again during the day and most likely not backwards!!

Like I said... From reading the post... So you didn't take off and have your jeep aired up and connected by the time they caught up to you?

[SavageSun4x4]

WOW! Not in defense, but in parallel: I talked to my buddy about a trip I would like to make and he thought he was a great idea. Then he invites about 10 or 12 other folks for the run. Albeit no one had ever run this trail, some guy decides he is gonna be the leader...fine, ok, lets do it. It is decided we will all meet at his house at 5 am on the given day and should be back about noon.

Due to every screw up you can think of to include not finding the trail, we didn't go 4 low until AFTER noon...more screw ups by the leader and we finally got home about 9 pm.

Carnage, none, broke parts, none, everyone there at 5 am, yes, everyone EXCEPT the leader properly preprepared yes, weak and poor leadership, YES!

Bottom line: I have seen of what you speak and you are correct about the trail leader. If one accepts the role of trail leader then one must accept the responsibility that goes along with it.

Not being on this run I can make no judgment of what might or might not have taken place, but leadership is a heavy burden to carry. Some time ago I was contacted by some folks that asked me to lead a group in Moab for a weeks worth of wheeling. I agreed and met them there. On the first day at the trail head in my safety meeting I asked how many had wheeled Moab and about how long most had been into OR. NO ONE had ever been to Moab or even on a wheeling trip. Only one guy had even more than a years worth of OR exp. Several folks had brand new Rubicons and were there to spank Moab. You can only imagine how I must have felt when I found out this info. I knew I had a lot of work to do in leading this crew around the trails. But most of all I had a lot of responsibility to keep someone from hurting themselves or others. We made that week, it took much coaxing and prodding to even get them to attempt even the smallest of obstacles. Turns out some had never been wheeling at all. The good news was they brought with them a good attitude, listened and paid attention to my words and spotting. But there were times I was ready to pull my hair out.

[Spongebob]

Trails can definately change, and running a trail at night or backwards is totally different compared to during the daylight hours, but the trip leader really is responsible for setting a reasonable pace that is no faster than the slowest man. Ensuring that all rigs make it out and are spotted correctly are also very important duties of the trip leader. If these things are ignored then nobody has a good time. When I lead a trail I help spot everyone, and ensure that my pace is comfortable for all who are with me. Also, something else that is overlooked all the time is that the trail leader needs to be in constant communication with everyone following. This is so important especially in very dusty conditions when there is on coming traffic. Whenever I lead, and see vehicles coming toward our column, I announce over the radio "vehicle from the front" and give a quick description of it. The consequences of keeping silent are too great. In short, if you ain't gonna lead, then follow.



Cheers,

[Antman]

Thankyou Jason for making your avatar smaller. :) I too have highspeed and a 21" monitor.
I wasnt b itching about you as trail leader as I wasnt there. :D

[etropic]

HOLY SH I T

You guys need to chill out.

First off, the avatar is an AZVJC thing. Talk to someone who controls avatar size. I don't remember it being a problem for Nick to have a sky scraper pic of Britney Spears or some stupid looking hummer.

Talk about childish? It's childish to come on this board, and talk smack about someone by name and ***** and whine like a little girl :)

How about some constructive criticism?

How about instead of a long rant about how horrible it was, maybe message him in private and direct him to an etiquette page, or tell him how you feel it should have went, or what could have been better.

So he sucks at leader, sorry your day was ruined. Maybe someone can "show him how it's done" so he (and everyone else) can be better for it.

Now THAT sounds like a good idea...

And a little less childish BTW :)

[LOST TJ]

There ya go if its still too big..sorry can't please everyone:)

BTW I am bored about reading about my self and people posting that weren't there.
BYE BYE:p

A post like this just confirms how you are and it must have showed in your leadership. It seems your technique in leading is not follow the leader, but can you follow the leader and keep up. When the wheelin turns from having fun into a contest it ruins the trip for all.

[LOST TJ]

HOLY SH I T

You guys need to chill out.

First off, the avatar is an AZVJC thing. Talk to someone who controls avatar size. I don't remember it being a problem for Nick to have a sky scraper pic of Britney Spears or some stupid looking hummer.

Talk about childish? It's childish to come on this board, and talk smack about someone by name and ***** and whine like a little girl :)

How about some constructive criticism?

How about instead of a long rant about how horrible it was, maybe message him in private and direct him to an etiquette page, or tell him how you feel it should have went, or what could have been better.

So he sucks at leader, sorry your day was ruined. Maybe someone can "show him how it's done" so he (and everyone else) can be better for it.

Now THAT sounds like a good idea...

And a little less childish BTW :)

I seem to remember one member trying to give him constructive criticism yesterday and all Jason could talk about is "it is not my fault you can't keep up" It is kinda of clear he is out for himself.

[Skii4x4]

I understand my role on a trail and I understand that the leader is the leader of the trail, but when the sun is coming up and you are already 11 hours into the trail ride that is supposed to take 3-4 hours and there are 2 stock vehicles hung up on their belly pans very bad and the trail "leader" is just standing there watching, someone needs to take charge otherwise you will be there all next day as well. And who cares about what type of vehicle I drive. I wheel is 95% jeeps because there are more of them out there. This goes back to the maturity level that a different person on the run brought up.

I am simply saying that a trail leader should follow the now sticky on the top of the page. It is your responsibility to be well prepared, keep the group together and moving at a decent pace, and to help other vehicles. If this was posted as an exploratory run that could take 8 hours then I wouldnt care at all that it lasted 11 hours. I wouldnt have signed up.

[xFallen]

This thread has gotten a bit off the path for this section of the board. I am not a fan of deleting posts or closing threads. Most have kept the discussion somewhat civil (with only a few skirts off toward the extreme) so let's please keep it on track.

The avatar size thing is and has been abused by a few (or perhaps overused is a more PC term if that suites your disposition) but that discussion really needs to be brought directly to Joe's attention and doesn't really belong in the trails section. I would encourage those that believe extremely large avatars inappropriate to contact Joe directly. Given enough feedback I am sure Joe will make a choice suitable for the goals of the board.


Barry

[BEETROOT]

How about some constructive criticism?

How about instead of a long rant about how horrible it was, maybe message him in private and direct him to an etiquette page, or tell him how you feel it should have went, or what could have been better.



I think this serves a good purpose. Based on the original post and the lack of any sort of intelligible response, I doubt I'll be heading out on any runs lead by jdemonto in the near future. If it was merely a clash of personalities, I agree that should stick to PM... but for someone like myself who is very new to the Jeep world, having a good leader is very important.

Not trying to bash on the guy or anything, but stuff like this is good to know.

[etropic]

Sorry, attacking someone because you thought he should have done it different, and acusing him of being just straight up a bad jeeper (the only reason any of us are here) serves no purpose to anyone.

If you are new and use a thread like this to make decisions or alter your jeeping expirience, then that just proves my point.

He may be the worst driver and the worst leader in recorded history, I don't know. But NO ONE is served good by this post and the attitudes of the attacking people above. No one.

[BEETROOT]

Sorry, attacking someone because you thought he should have done it different, and acusing him of being just straight up a bad jeeper (the only reason any of us are here) serves no purpose to anyone.

Care to elaborate on why this doesn't serve a purpose? I just told you how it does. I'd imagine the guys lost on the trail at 6am would have liked to know beforehand that their trail leader was going to be aired up and off the trail while they are still trying to find their way out.

If you are new and use a thread like this to make decisions or alter your jeeping expirience, then that just proves my point.

Actually, your point was that this thread serves no purpose. If I base a decision off this thread, that would be exactly contrary to your point.

He may be the worst driver and the worst leader in recorded history, I don't know. But NO ONE is served good by this post and the attitudes of the attacking people above. No one.

It was helpful to me, so there goes the 'NO ONE' statement.







edit: I don't mean to sound like a d*** here, sorry to be so argumentative. A seperate issue at work has me a little frustrated :)

[LOST TJ]

He may be the worst driver and the worst leader in recorded history, I don't know. But NO ONE is served good by this post and the attitudes of the attacking people above. No one.

Sounds logical. I'll shut up now.

[katvans]

Well, he did have some constructive info posted for him before the run.

Jason,
I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but I think you are being overly optimistic on the time and equipment requirements for this run. I ran it last week with one other rig, both rubicons on 33's, tummy tuckers, winch's etc., and it took us almost 7 hours in the daytime. Some of that time was route finding, but for the most part we were driving the whole time, no long breaks, minimal picture taking etc. I would imagine a bigger group, at night, will take at least that much time without any setbacks.

The trail is quite a bit tougher than it was a coiuple of years ago, here's a couple of threads everyone should read:

http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/showthread.php?t=16167&page=2
http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/showthread.php?t=16598

All I'm saying is be ready for bit of a challenge out there tomorrow, there is a nasty washout on the way up which will be no fun if someone were to fall in, make sure you guys have plenty of recovery gear, straps and winches, etc. It's also overgrown as hell, so you will get some serious az pinstriping, and the rock garden is now a couple of miles long instead of the 1/4 mile it used to be.

I would advise at least 33's, some form of traction aid (LSD or above), and a willingness to scratch and claw your way through this trail. Oh, and plenty of beverages ;)

From the trail rating page, (http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/showthread.php?t=13810) I'd call it a 3.5 in it's current state:


Taking off mature adult hat now. Have fun !

PS - Is your avater big enough ?

[OlneyJeeps]

to paraphrase a kindergarden book... we all poop
crap happens...get over it
reading threads like this can be rather educational about what to expect: as a leader, as a participant, what you should / shoould not do, how a rant or ranting response (expecially when physically sore and sleep deprived ) can make you look rather foolish, etc
As a trip leader who has screwed up (fortuneatly no one ever tried to rip me a new hole:confused: ), I realize crap happens. Having been on both sides, I try to make the best of the situation (notice how I said TRY). Whether leader or not, I TRY to "lead" by example.

From my perspective, I think certain people might do with a little sleep before they say things they might later regret.

Trip leaders/what to expect idea (for Joe): how about a rating system in the form of vote / comment selection (from list to avoid personal attacks) for trips / trip leaders?

Related subject (avitar): IMHO, yes too big... a little advertisement is ok, but people usually don't appreciate having gobs shoved down their throats. Omitting avitar? I miss DMAN's daily:eek:

[AZG23]

attacking someone doesnt ever solve anything....however, informing others of such experiences is important and does serve a purpose...

Ive been on several runs with Jason...and had a good time...however, the response that he has NEVER left anyone behind isnt true...we ran Martinez Canyon with a group awhile back...and on the way out it was VERY dusty...so things slowed down...Jason wasnt responding on the radio, and he was nowhere to be found...if it wasnt for another Jeeper stepping up to lead us outta there...we'd have been in for a longer day...we got out to the trail head, and Jason was long gone...

This type of leadership is dangerous....if noone else had known the area, we could have been in serious trouble...Ive since gone on other runs with Jason and didnt have the same experience, other than him getting too far ahead of the group...(log corral, CK). Jason runs some cool trails for the moderates on the board...but just needs to be aware of these issues in order to better himself in this area.

I posted the Trail Etiquette thread to help out some of the newer Jeepers (heck, Im still a Newb!)...and to bring up some of the issues Ive seen/heard/experienced on trail runs...

thanks guys/gals

[XJ Un-Limited]

Attack the issue, not the person.

Accusations get you no where, contructive criticism is much more effective.

I'm not defending or acusing anyone here, but this thread makes me mad. A whole lot of you are fast to get on the bandwagon of accusations and belittling instead of finding a solution or giving guidance.

There's a whole lot points and other variables that I think could go either way and make no one right or wrong.

In this thread alone, there are reasons (and the people behind them) for which I now RARELY go on any group runs anymore. Group runs; shouln't everyone be involved in helping solve the problem instead of pointing fingers? Not every leader has the answer or the capability to make a run fun and memorable. The leader does have responsibilities, but help from everyone should be inclusive to insure things run as smooth as possible. Eveyone has there own individual responsibilites and should be held accountive to them.

So, I blame everyone. And I wasn't even there!!

[AndyB]

Dude, if I had to turn avatars off, then I would miss the funny ones like XJ unlimited's. :D :D :D too funny, wth is that thing anyway?

ON a more serious note, stuff like this is going to happen in a club like this. Everyone should just try to keep it civil and constructive. I'm not passing judgement on anyone because I wasn't on this run. People have the right to handle situations however they want to, but it is nice when things don't get ugly.

More or less, I just wanted to comment on that avatar.... :D

[tyota]

blah blah blah blah


I have nothing positive or negative to add to this thread, so I'm adding my post count by 1


besides I like Jason's avatar, it's got my XJ on it :D

[tyota]

p.s.


who needs soap operas when you can just sign up to the virtual jeep club???:D

[Az Bratt Pakk]

Everyone can just sit on Nicks avatars thumb:) Cant we all just get along.

[Antman]

HOLY SH I T

You guys need to chill out.

First off, the avatar is an AZVJC thing. Talk to someone who controls avatar size. I don't remember it being a problem for Nick to have a sky scraper pic of Britney Spears or some stupid looking hummer.

Talk about childish? It's childish to come on this board, and talk smack about someone by name and ***** and whine like a little girl :)

How about some constructive criticism?

How about instead of a long rant about how horrible it was, maybe message him in private and direct him to an etiquette page, or tell him how you feel it should have went, or what could have been better.

So he sucks at leader, sorry your day was ruined. Maybe someone can "show him how it's done" so he (and everyone else) can be better for it.

Now THAT sounds like a good idea...

And a little less childish BTW :)



First of all, I didnt mean to get on Jason because his avatar was to BIG, it was TOOOOO WIDE! Second I dont need to "Chill out". If you read all my post with the exception of the post replying to Joe's, I was all smiley :) . Third, I dont think I talked smack as you call it about Jason and when Joe and Jason posted their reply's, I took care of it by putting Jason on my Ignore list. I thought I was giving constructive criticism! :)
As for he trail leading, I wasn't there, but suspect from all the post some weren't :) with his leading. I think several people told him how it should have went with their post on here.
BTW Jason downsized his avatar to correct page width and is not on my ignore list anymore. :) I am happy. How about you?:D

[Wind_Danzer]

attacking someone doesnt ever solve anything....however, informing others of such experiences is important and does serve a purpose...

Ive been on several runs with Jason...and had a good time...however, the response that he has NEVER left anyone behind isnt true...we ran Martinez Canyon with a group awhile back...and on the way out it was VERY dusty...so things slowed down...Jason wasnt responding on the radio, and he was nowhere to be found...if it wasnt for another Jeeper stepping up to lead us outta there...we'd have been in for a longer day...we got out to the trail head, and Jason was long gone...

This type of leadership is dangerous....if noone else had known the area, we could have been in serious trouble...Ive since gone on other runs with Jason and didnt have the same experience, other than him getting too far ahead of the group...(log corral, CK). Jason runs some cool trails for the moderates on the board...but just needs to be aware of these issues in order to better himself in this area.

I posted the Trail Etiquette thread to help out some of the newer Jeepers (heck, Im still a Newb!)...and to bring up some of the issues Ive seen/heard/experienced on trail runs...

thanks guys/gals

Agreed with this but also when he's not leading he doesn't have faith in the people trying to get him through the obsticals.

I remember a suprisingly warm January night and Upper Woodpecker.... fatbob will remember this night well too.

Late arrival by and hour and a 1/2 (which as a group we agreed to allow), air down for another 20 or so, and freaking out on every obstical and running slow because of it.... Fingers will not save your soft top on a rock face wall. A stocker of a Jeep was moving quite a bit faster because he would listen to his spotter whereas Jason who is in a lifted unlimited on 37's would not causing slowdowns throughout the evening. We might have been able to get in another trail if it was for the fact we ended after midnight after starting late and spending more then the time we thought it would take on the trail.

We all seemed to have fun, I did but Jason's name came up more then once that evening and his lack of "skill" for the Jeep he has.

[xFallen]

Is everyone done now? Let's stop the personal bashing please on both sides. That is getting way off topic for this forum.

There was some good form this:

1) Baed on an excellent suggestion we have a new sticky post that talks about some of the points of trail etiquette. Thanks to Stu Olson who has graciously allowed us the link to his site.
2) Humongous page real-estate wasting avatars were reduced slightly.
3) Nick upped his posted count.
4) Antman is happy.
5) Maybe some people gained some insight into what to do and not do for group runs.


Barry

[fatbob309]

I still have a poke or two in me... Is there some noob i can pick on? I looked on JU and they already have the noobs crying...:D

[Skii4x4]

I like #3
:D

[xFallen]

I still have a poke or two in me... Is there some noob i can pick on? I looked on JU and they already have the noobs crying...:D

If JU is all full of themselves, I suggest taking it here http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum. Some of the vultures and sharks on that board are the most notorious and unscrupulous web-wheelers around. They LOVE to be poked.

Stop in and say that you're a socialist homosexual ideally of Middle Eastern decent who drives a H2 (or better yet H3 although it doesn't matter much) and you want to show them how a real man rock crawls. If you are already a member, be sure to use a new user name and be sure NOT to introduce yourself in the newb section first. That should get you your fill for a while. Oh yeah. Read the various FAQs and then post up the same questions repeatedly. It'd be cool if you just copied the FAQ questions verbatim.

Yeah. That's the ticket.


Barry

[fatbob309]

If JU is all full of themselves, I suggest taking it here http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum. Some of the vultures and sharks on that board are the most notorious and unscrupulous web-wheelers around. They LOVE to be poked.

Stop in and say that you're a socialist homosexual ideally of Middle Eastern decent who drives a H2 (or better yet H3 although it doesn't matter much) and you want to show them how a real man rock crawls. If you are already a member, be sure to use a new user name and be sure NOT to introduce yourself in the newb section first. That should get you your fill for a while. Oh yeah. Read the various FAQs and then post up the same questions repeatedly. It'd be cool if you just copied the FAQ questions verbatim.

Yeah. That's the ticket.


Barry

I've done the question thing.... Dear God!!!

[xFallen]

I've done the question thing.... Dear God!!!

Heeee...yeah. Kinda makes you go...hmmm....


Barry

[Antman]

Is everyone done now? Let's stop the personal bashing please on both sides. That is getting way off topic for this forum.

There was some good form this:

1) Baed on an excellent suggestion we have a new sticky post that talks about some of the points of trail etiquette. Thanks to Stu Olson who has graciously allowed us the link to his site.
2) Humongous page real-estate wasting avatars were reduced slightly.
3) Nick upped his posted count.
4) Antman is happy.
5) Maybe some people gained some insight into what to do and not do for group runs.


Barry



I like #3! Thanks Barry! :D

[Joe West]

By the way folks... I changed the thread title. I promise you... Jason is NOT the worst trail leader (although he may not be as good as others). I've lead a fair number of runs and the job isn't an easy one when you have a large group... if you're doing some bashing in this thread but have never lead a run... you may want to consider leading one before you complain too much.

That being said... feedback is always welcome, good or bad... however let's try to keep it constructive shall we? Constructive is where you point out some good things and then point out some things that could have been done better in a somewhat nice way ;)

Thanks Gang.

Joe

[RokNRich]

Well, having run that trail the week before during the day, I knew you guys would be in for a treat. I won't comment on what went down on the run, because I wasn't there, but I did post a pretty good warning in the thread about the time and equipment requirements for the trail.

There is nothing worse than leading a run when not everyone is capable to be on the trail. ALL participants should try and have as much info on the trail conditions before comitting themselves to the trail. This is a general statement, not directed at anyone in particular.

As a rule of thumb, I try to not have anything planned for at least 6-8 hours after the scheduled return time, just in case. Anyways, glad everyone got home OK, that is the important part.

Who's going to lead it next weekend ? :)

[k7mto]

I'l lead it....as soon as I get my junk finished. Why don't you come up Higley and help me out, Rich ;)

[leonardg]

Jason, shrink the avatar.

[leonardg]

Ignore, I added this but now can't figure how to delete it

[vwkaferman]

That's definitely not good leading. I beleive if you volunteer to lead a trail run you have a certain responsibility to make sure everybody is okay and not left behind stranded. You need to maintain radio contact with the rest of the group and pace yourself accordingly. Make sure everybody makes the proper turns, etc. If somebody does not have a CB, put that guy in between people who do have CB's. Common sense, nothing too complicated here.

If you don't want the responsibility, don't post a trip and just wheel with a few of your buddies that are on the same level as you and can keep up with you.

I must say, you rocked out at Hackberry creek. Even put up with me not having a CB, not having lockers at all, having too small of tires. You took it in stride, and everyone was extremely understanding of me being in over my head on that trail. Thank you sir!

James

[Boo69]

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/villagestreetwear_1917_66437494Jason!!!! Make this your new avatar!!!! It will sell more!!!! Don't you agree????:) :( :o :D ;) :p :rolleyes: :cool:

[OlneyJeeps]

Jason!!!! Make this your new avatar!!!! It will sell more!!!! Don't you agree????:) :( :o :D ;) :p :rolleyes: :cool:

that's cruel and unhuman.... (no phone #'s:D ) should we start a new thread (poll/vote).... #6

[Cave Gimp]

FatBob, I'm a newb, you can make fun of me. :) Maybe Nick will chime in and raise his post count some more. :D

[OlneyJeeps]

on a serious note,:
Jason had no control over members arriving late
good participants can make the worst of leaders look good (thanks for all who attended pima cleanup:eek: )
like I said/inferred before, crap happens.... deal with it, move on

[PMFG!ItsaGP]

I just put Jason in my ignore list. That takes care of it for me. :)
lol!!

[Boo69]

that's cruel and unhuman.... (no phone #'s:D ) should we start a new thread (poll/vote).... #6



A new poll on what.... if that avatar is offensive????????????????????

[OlneyJeeps]

A new poll on what.... if that avatar is offensive????????????????????


counting left to right(your avitar).... #6:D :D

[Boo69]

counting left to right(your avitar).... #6:D :D



left to right... I like # 2

[Jdemonto@Airpark Jeep Sales]

left to right... I like # 2


I'll take them all..at the same time;)

[Renob]

Wait a minute, are we picking girl or album? If girl, #4. If album, #6.

[mingoglia]

After 6 pages I think it's about time to lock this thread and get on with life... everyone had their say... let's get back to web wheelin'.

Mike

[Jdemonto@Airpark Jeep Sales]

I just posted back up to check out my new sig!!! What do you think..too big???? I never knew trail leading and big avitars could be such a hot topic:rolleyes:

[FlexyXJ]

I am a noob, and my Jeep just plain sucks, as does my driving. Pick on me......
------------------>:D <------------------ Smiley denotes "joking", But my Jeep still sucks.

Joe



I still have a poke or two in me... Is there some noob i can pick on? I looked on JU and they already have the noobs crying...:D

[etropic]

all this sillyness and dragging pink floyd into it doesn't offset the fact that there are clearly some people on this forum who should not be invited or an runs in the near future.

quite frankly, not that I'm any saint or anything, I'm a little embarrased that it was allowed to go this far.

[Jdemonto@Airpark Jeep Sales]

all this sillyness and dragging pink floyd into it doesn't offset the fact that there are clearly some people on this forum who should not be invited or an runs in the near future.

quite frankly, not that I'm any saint or anything, I'm a little embarrased that it was allowed to go this far.


X2

[xFallen]

all this sillyness and dragging pink floyd into it doesn't offset the fact that there are clearly some people on this forum who should not be invited or an runs in the near future.

quite frankly, not that I'm any saint or anything, I'm a little embarrased that it was allowed to go this far.

The embarassment thing, I believe I do understand. As to allowed to go this far, hrm. This isn't high school. If people don't want to continue something, don't post. Some people do like to fan the flames and see the drama unfold. Really, no posts, no repeated viewing of the silliness, no continuation, no need for censorship or other measures. Easy.

If the populus really wants it closed, it'll get closed. PM works fine. I'd be more impressed if people simply quit posting of their own accord and moved on to something else.


Barry

[lostoffroad]

I'd be more impressed if people simply quit posting of their own accord and moved on to something else.


Barry

well put.

[LOWTECH]

Like I said before HATE EVERYONE EQUALY, like I do, it saves time :D

[VIVIsectI]

Given that the crossing for the Verde River is hard to find from the West side, the GPS coordinates are on the trail description on this very site and are available to anyone who wishes to run this trail (leaders included). There isn't any reason for someone to spend an extended period of time trying to find it. I'v driven behind jason before, driven behind him on this trail in fact, and he is extremely fast when the ground is level. As soon as it gets rocky or the inclinometer tilts just a bit he does slow to a craw. That's just the way Jason runs trails and it has to be dealt with. I've run several trails behind him. I'm sure I'll run more behind him as well, but I don't run behind him on trails that I haven't run previously. For the shear fact that I know he will leave me in the dust.

[Jdemonto@Airpark Jeep Sales]

Given that the crossing for the Verde River is hard to find from the West side, the GPS coordinates are on the trail description on this very site and are available to anyone who wishes to run this trail (leaders included). There isn't any reason for someone to spend an extended period of time trying to find it. I'v driven behind jason before, driven behind him on this trail in fact, and he is extremely fast when the ground is level. As soon as it gets rocky or the inclinometer tilts just a bit he does slow to a craw. That's just the way Jason runs trails and it has to be dealt with. I've run several trails behind him. I'm sure I'll run more behind him as well, but I don't run behind him on trails that I haven't run previously. For the shear fact that I know he will leave me in the dust.

Hey TJ you keep up just fine!!!!!! Remember box canyon at 3am????????
Just follow the dust........;)

[jeremy rice]

I remember a rhino kept up through martinez canyon

[Jdemonto@Airpark Jeep Sales]

Thats the trip!!!!! The few thw proud..the brave!!!! Yeah those guys in the rhino did a great job..even drunk!!!!! Glad they made it back to the cabins in one piece!!!

Jason

[KRWLNXJ]

Well from our experience with Jason as a trail leader, we can say that he did leave rigs behind on the trail and expected those that are just getting into wheeling and stock jeeps to follow his lead on somethings that the rigs or the driver where not ready for. But some of us felt it was more important to stay behind and help the less capiable to be safe than follow on with the "Leader", since he had on intention to slow up much or forgo an obstacle that not all in the group could do. Eight rigs when in and 5 rigs come out together, 3 rigs got mad and left on their own since they knew the area. With alittle CB communication with Jason's friend, Ed in the dead stock, my wife and myself were able to figure out how to find them again since this was our first time in this area. Before the day was through, with the the help of our son and some winching for saftey we were able to get Ed's jeep across the river at a better location down the river. And thankfully Jason has a great friend that ended up taking Jason's daughter, which he left on the the start side, in thier Toyota since Jason crossed the river at a swift and deeper area that was not safely possible for the stock jeep and the toyota. Jason assumed that if his jeep on 37" tire could cross then we should all do it, note the water was up over his tires. This river crossing probably took close to 2 hours once Jason crossed and insisted that was cross there and the remainder of the group deciding that it would be best to scout down stream for a better crossing.

From that point our new friend Ed and us left behind our not so kindly leader and headed home.

And Jason is right "If you don't like him as a trail leader...Don't Come" and we won't and have choosen on several occassions not to go for the fact that Jason is leading it.

So to all happy trailing!

[Renob]

Maybe it's time for a Trail Leader 101 class.

[Hackle]

Trail Leader 101 First Rule

Pick a good tail end with a c/b.
I always got a kick out of the Crown King Annual Runs. I would lead the early group most years and have Randy Davis run tail end for me. At the end of the trail everyone would thank me for a good run. My reply was usually they needed to thank Randy as he did all the work.

I got to drive a trail with no dust, most times I helped with none of the repairs (as the breakage was well behind me). Randy would be on the C/B telling me to hold up and help with repairs:) The normal answer I got when telling people to thank Randy was "WHO???" That became his c/b handle:)

Everyone is responsable to help out on a group run as things like waiting for the guy behind you to make sure he sees the next turn. With all the dust most times everyone spreads out on the high speed stuff so they can drive in clean air.
Jim F.

[Jdemonto@Airpark Jeep Sales]

Well from our experience with Jason as a trail leader, we can say that he did leave rigs behind on the trail and expected those that are just getting into wheeling and stock jeeps to follow his lead on somethings that the rigs or the driver where not ready for. But some of us felt it was more important to stay behind and help the less capiable to be safe than follow on with the "Leader", since he had on intention to slow up much or forgo an obstacle that not all in the group could do. Eight rigs when in and 5 rigs come out together, 3 rigs got mad and left on their own since they knew the area. With alittle CB communication with Jason's friend, Ed in the dead stock, my wife and myself were able to figure out how to find them again since this was our first time in this area. Before the day was through, with the the help of our son and some winching for saftey we were able to get Ed's jeep across the river at a better location down the river. And thankfully Jason has a great friend that ended up taking Jason's daughter, which he left on the the start side, in thier Toyota since Jason crossed the river at a swift and deeper area that was not safely possible for the stock jeep and the toyota. Jason assumed that if his jeep on 37" tire could cross then we should all do it, note the water was up over his tires. This river crossing probably took close to 2 hours once Jason crossed and insisted that was cross there and the remainder of the group deciding that it would be best to scout down stream for a better crossing.

From that point our new friend Ed and us left behind our not so kindly leader and headed home.

And Jason is right "If you don't like him as a trail leader...Don't Come" and we won't and have choosen on several occassions not to go for the fact that Jason is leading it.

So to all happy trailing!

If its the sheep crossing your refering to I never made it across..the best place was the deepest hence nobody got across after my jeep was flooded out the cb was damaged and we all went home, not just your buddy ed. Alot of times these trails change dramaticly and I rather be surprised than do a scout run to find out we can't cross.

Jason