Trail Etiquette

[AZG23]

After going on several runs, and leading several as well...Ive realized the "mixed bag" of folks/rigs that you can have attend, and that a trail leader can make or break a good run.

Id like to see this as a sticky on the top of each of the RUN forums...for new and old alike...it may help those who have not been on a run be more prepared, and those that are leading to keep those behind them in mind.

Id like to thank Stu for this write-up I'm linking to..and appreciate what Ive learned from his site.....



http://www.stu-offroad.com/misc/etiquette.htm

[UNSTUCK]

I like the idea of not losing the guy behind you. There have been a few times where I lost the guy in front of me and ended up making a wrong turn.

[Tony_T]

Great post. This weekend was my first trip and I learned a LOT about going on runs in a group.

[AZG23]

Great post. This weekend was my first trip and I learned a LOT about going on runs in a group.

You just happened to pick the FASTEST trail leader in the valley...Jason doesnt have a slow speed on that Jeep.

I like the dont lose sight of the guy/gal behind you as well....if you are leading a run, you HAVE to be part of the group....you are the LEADER of the group, not just a Jeep running it, and need to keep those in your group close and be aware of their progress, or breakage..

I also think making sure those going are ready to, and being man enough to tell someone they arent ready for it as well....I took a group through an easy run last weekend at the tanks...and ended up having to pull one of em off the trail due to it not engaging the front shafts...and then the engine wouldnt stay running...this is when I found out they had no recovery points on the YJ....ended up using the shackles which I DIDNT like using as it can cut into the strap...

Needless to say, I should have checked those vehicles that showed up and not allowed them to run....

I posted the link so new Jeepers can know what they are supposed to show up with to make a run fun, and not a disaster!

[xFallen]

After going on several runs, and leading several as well...Ive realized the "mixed bag" of folks/rigs that you can have attend, and that a trail leader can make or break a good run.

Id like to see this as a sticky on the top of each of the RUN forums...for new and old alike...it may help those who have not been on a run be more prepared, and those that are leading to keep those behind them in mind.

Id like to thank Stu for this write-up I'm linking to..and appreciate what Ive learned from his site.....



http://www.stu-offroad.com/misc/etiquette.htm

I think making the link from Stu's site a sticky is a good idea. I am not too interested in sticking this entire thread. The notoriety of the individual cited should not be encouraged. You are not alone however. I suppose people do need to choose carefully who they wheel with, I guess. Sad but true. Sorry you guys had a tough go of it.

As a courtesy Stu should be consulted before any links are made permanently to his site. If you would like to propose a slightly more generic and perhaps cleaned up message I can make it a permanent item in the trails section then close the thread. Alternatively, I can craft a note too. Let me know which you prefer and we can make it happen.

Perhaps we can let this brew just a bit longer to see what shakes out but I believe your proposal for a trail etiquette sticky is a very good one.


Barry

[Renob]

I also think making sure those going are ready to, and being man enough to tell someone they arent ready for it as wellThis should be #1.

[Jdemonto@Airpark Jeep Sales]

Whats wrong brad..can't keep up????? When I lead I like to keep up a good pace..hard to do with a mixture of rigs in a group!!!! I sometimes forget my unlimited wheels a bit faster than the swb jeeps and tend to travel a bit fast on trails...Maybe when a group is led, there needs to be some ground rules??? Then again some people don't like others telling them what to do!! Sounds like a catch 22???

[AZG23]

Barry...

Please if you would...make up the post if Stu doesnt mind the linking...I think having it at the head of each of the trails sections 4.0 - up, 2.5-3.5, and the street-2.0...Im sure you can say it better than I...


Jason,

This wasnt directed solely to you...although I think if you LEAD, you should do just that..not fly through the trail and wait at the end...letting the rest of the group fend for themselves...

Thats just my thoughts on LEADING....I CAN keep up...but I choose to stay with and help those thru sections of a trail that can be harder for others....I think you will find not too many people will be going on runs if you dont catch this concept...you cant expect to put a run together, and have stockers show and think they will fly right behind you when you are on 37's...

Now...since this isnt all about J-man....:D

Im still new to wheeling, and like to show others and grow the sport/passion...and I think others do as well....alot of you guys have been doing this so long, this is standard issue stuff...I think there are enough new folk popping up, that they NEED this information as well....

thanks for the sticky Barry...I look forward to seeing it up, and helping out on our runs..

[FrenchChili]

Hey Jason aka slowpoke! What happened, going faster on the obstacles or going Dakar style down the wash:D??????

:D:D:p

[xFallen]

Whats wrong brad..can't keep up????? When I lead I like to keep up a good pace..hard to do with a mixture of rigs in a group!!!! I sometimes forget my unlimited wheels a bit faster than the swb jeeps and tend to travel a bit fast on trails...Maybe when a group is led, there needs to be some ground rules??? Then again some people don't like others telling them what to do!! Sounds like a catch 22???

One of the first rules in wheeling with a group is that the group is only as capable as the least capable rig. That means driver, preparedness, speed of driving, and so on. This actually applies to life, but we'll keep it to wheeling.

Hopefully you can learn something from this but as importasntly, everyone else can take their own notes and draw their own conclusions. Frankly, everyone else I have ever wheeled with has known this concept intuitively. Now you know.

You taunting Brad is pretty ironic too. We'll leave it at that unless you really want to or are daft enough to make public your own humiliations.


Barry

[Skii4x4]

Brad,

I enjoyed your start to this but I needed to make my own statement about this trip :)

http://virtualjeepclub.com/showthread.php?t=16766

Kevin

[Renob]

When I lead I like to keep up a good paceAre you referring to the 4 hour tour you led through Terminator?

[AZG23]

again...this isnt towards anyone in particular....I just think there are enough new folks on the board, that there should be a general info sticky about going on runs...

Ive learned a few things being on and leading runs, and I think this info is very important...especially when you get to the stage alot of these guys are at...

[YJINAZ]

One item missing from the BBS format is the trail and member section. When I lead or join a trail run I like to review the members and their jeeps that will be on the run and see who has made this run. My first time as a leader I had alot of new members and I send out many messages to them and even posted links and pics from Stu's web site so that everyone knew what to expect. With this BBS I find this hard to tell how experience everyone is.
In Jason defense this group lacks people to step forward and lead a group of people you don't know and don't know their driving style.
What happens is that once we find some friends that wheel like us we splinter into small groups and this is so much easier. Just look at what runs are posted not very many for the size of this group.

It also helps greatly for a leader to know jeeps and how to work on them for other traill runnners look up to you if they get into trouble. Also you need to find or assign a trail runner to follow up the run.

Being a leader is alot of work and responsibility.
Night runs is another whole deal that needs a very good leader and GPS.

My 2 cents

[xFallen]

One item missing from the BBS format is the trail and member section. When I lead or join a trail run I like to review the members and their jeeps that will be on the run and see who has made this run. My first time as a leader I had alot of new members and I send out many messages to them and even posted links and pics from Stu's web site so that everyone knew what to expect. With this BBS I find this hard to tell how experience everyone is.
In Jason defense this group lacks people to step forward and lead a group of people you don't know and don't know their driving style.
What happens is that once we find some friends that wheel like us we splinter into small groups and this is so much easier. Just look at what runs are posted not very many for the size of this group.

It also helps greatly for a leader to know jeeps and how to work on them for other traill runnners look up to you if they get into trouble. Also you need to find or assign a trail runner to follow up the run.

Being a leader is alot of work and responsibility.
Night runs is another whole deal that needs a very good leader and GPS.

My 2 cents

Unfortunately you can't estimate someone's experience form a BBS posting. This I know for certain. People wheel constantly and do not even make a single peep about it here or anywhere else. There's a very good reason that runs are not posted" too many people show up who are completely unprepared to heed the advice of the trip leader's minimum requirements in terms of skill, experience, or preparedness. That is in no way an excuse for poor trip leadership. It does explain why at least some of these trips are often not posted.

Also, making widespread statements about the group is far from fair. It also does not match my reality. There are certainly many newbs (the trip leader in question being one of them) but there are numerous extremely experienced and thoughtful people who have been contributing in many ways on the trail for a very long time, and I am not talking about web wheeling.

You do not need a GPS. They are very handy tools, I caryr one about half the time and use it about 1 out of 10 times. You do need to know where you are going, alternate routes and what to expect. People have been doing night runs for a long time well before general availability of the GPS.

What people can do is post in advance in an organized fashion, something lacking from some of these runs, and set a minimum level of expectation for driver and rig, then do the same at the trail head.

As adults, people can then decide collectively what or how to do certain things. The trick is the adult part sometimes. That also goes back to the adult thing unfortunately.


Barry

[Renob]

All you have to do is achieve D I C K status, as I have managed to do here on this board. Then it will be easy to be one at the trail head if necessary. It may be unfortunate but is indeed mandatory to assure everyone makes it out, ALIVE!

[xFallen]

After going on several runs, and leading several as well...Ive realized the "mixed bag" of folks/rigs that you can have attend, and that a trail leader can make or break a good run.

Id like to see this as a sticky on the top of each of the RUN forums...for new and old alike...it may help those who have not been on a run be more prepared, and those that are leading to keep those behind them in mind.

Id like to thank Stu for this write-up I'm linking to..and appreciate what Ive learned from his site.....



http://www.stu-offroad.com/misc/etiquette.htm

Brad,

Please see the sticky posts in each of the run sections (they are identical) and let me know if this is what you had in mind. Constructive comments on the trail etiquette contents are of course welcome.


Barry

[AZG23]

yep....thats good!

the 2.5-3.5 section thread title is missing the O in other...O ther than that.....I think that will be a great info post!

thanks again for taking the time to stick these...

[Skii4x4]

As adults, people can then decide collectively what or how to do certain things. The trick is the adult part sometimes. That also goes back to the adult thing unfortunately.


Well put Barry

[Wayco]

Good work on the sticky Barry. Stu has so much on his website that we can all use! This leadership issue has been apparent to me on several of the posted runs that I have done, hence my reluctance to post up some of the adventures that I have been on with other members here.
As I gain experience wheeling, I realize that we all could benifit from the hard won wisdom of Jeepers like Barry and Stu, but since we seldom get the chance to wheel with them, this forum is where we come for that knowledge.
Brad, the runs that we have done together has shown me what is necessary for a leader and I appreciate the effort you put into each run, even when you are not leading it.
Really looking forward to this wheeling season!

[Antman]

Looks good guys! This is a subject that should have been brought up a long time ago. A good trail leader takes care of his people and starts with a meeting at the trail head to let the group know what to expect and what you as the leader expect from each one of them. It doesnt hurt for the leader to have someone he trust with a radio as tail gunner.
Actually if you have more that 10 vehicles, its better to split into two groups, if you have another leader willing to take the responsibility on. As people are airing down I usually walk around and introduce myself and check out their jeeps. If I dont think they or their jeep is capable, I'll try to politely talk them into riding with someone else and explain that there is an obsticle I dont think their jeep is going to make and explain there is no bypass for them. I also explain what I expect as far as "Tread Lightly" and keeping your place in line and the guy behind you in site.
Sorry to ramble on, but as Renob said, sometimes you have to be a D***. Its best for the whole group.

[AZG23]

I'd also like to add to the trail communications part.....if you dont have a CB, you are missing out on alot of the "fun" on a run, as there is often witty banter back and forth as you progress....it is alos VERY important to know what is happening and where to go...as well as ask for help if needed...

On that note..if you dont have one, and you want to get one and have it installed...I am more than willing to help you, or even do it for you if you dont have the ability...please let me know...if you dont have recovery points and need to install them, Im able to help there as well..although those are pretty easy...

Anyway...Ive seen lots of people show without radios, and know its a plus to have...Id also like to see more trail 101's scheduled...but thats a different thread..:D

[Tom Jacobson]

Unfortunately you can't estimate someone's experience form a BBS posting.

Barry

Shortened your quote, but what I think he (YJINAZ) was trying to say was missing from the BBS is the ability to review the vehicle of the persons signed up for the run. Assuming it was correct and up to date of course. Like he said, I used to check out the specs for everyone signed up for any run I was leading. For anyone I didn't already know, this was the only way to get any insight...useful in case someone signs up under-equipped for the run. Easier to tell them it's the wrong run for them BEFORE they show up at the trailhead.

btw...what's a gps? :D

I've had my own bad experience leading a trip for VJC. I volunteered to lead a run around Martinez a few years ago near Thanksgiving. There were 25-30 jeeps that showed up. It was a tough day, but thatnks to a couple of attendees that stepped up to help mid-gun and tail-gun we got through OK...mostly! Even stopped to help some other wheelers we encountered along the day.

That day still makes me squick about posting any runs here though...

Tom

[xFallen]

Shortened your quote, but what I think he (YJINAZ) was trying to say was missing from the BBS is the ability to review the vehicle of the persons signed up for the run. Assuming it was correct and up to date of course. Like he said, I used to check out the specs for everyone signed up for any run I was leading. For anyone I didn't already know, this was the only way to get any insight...useful in case someone signs up under-equipped for the run. Easier to tell them it's the wrong run for them BEFORE they show up at the trailhead.

btw...what's a gps? :D

I've had my own bad experience leading a trip for VJC. I volunteered to lead a run around Martinez a few years ago near Thanksgiving. There were 25-30 jeeps that showed up. It was a tough day, but thatnks to a couple of attendees that stepped up to help mid-gun and tail-gun we got through OK...mostly! Even stopped to help some other wheelers we encountered along the day.

That day still makes me squick about posting any runs here though...

Tom


I understand, but even sign-up sheets I haven't found to be very reliable. I do agree the notion is better than nothing at all. Too many people show up unannounced, unexpected, and worse in some cases. The sign-up sheets give you some idea but not 100%.

Hats off to Jeff Stewart (as one example that comes to mind -- I am sure there are others desrving as well) for the numerous times he has led very large groups of inexperienced drivers and sometimes underbuilt rigs through Lower Terminator or Judgement Day, for example. It is a lot of work and takes huge amounts of time and patience dragging people off the pebbles and guiding them through the trail in one piece.


Barry

[LKD TJ]

Hats off to Jeff Stewart (as one example that comes to mind -- I am sure there are others desrving as well) for the numerous times he has led very large groups of inexperienced drivers and sometimes underbuilt rigs through Lower Terminator or Judgement Day, for example. It is a lot of work and takes huge amounts of time and patience dragging people off the pebbles and guiding them through the trail in one piece.


Barry

I have listened to Jeff one too many times and ended up sideways on the trail or in a precarious line just for Jeff's entertainment. :eek:

:rolleyes:

Just kidding, I agree with what you have said and it takes a good leader and group to have fun. It is difficult to get a group of people through a run (especially a large group) without upsetting one person or another. People sometimes think that the leaders come off snooty if they ask to know who is coming and how their rigs are set up, but it gives us a good idea of how the day will end up and what to expect. I don’t want to stir the pot I just want to say thanks to Jeff as well – You are the man, man! :cool:

I am a little bored at work

[RokNRich]

I'm hoping that the number of posted runs doesn't diminish as a result of this crap. :(

[mingoglia]

I have listened to Jeff one too many times and ended up sideways on the trail or in a precarious line just for Jeff's entertainment. :eek:

:rolleyes:

Just kidding, I agree with what you have said and it takes a good leader and group to have fun. It is difficult to get a group of people through a run (especially a large group) without upsetting one person or another. People sometimes think that the leaders come off snooty if they ask to know who is coming and how their rigs are set up, but it gives us a good idea of how the day will end up and what to expect. I don’t want to stir the pot I just want to say thanks to Jeff as well – You are the man, man! :cool:

I am a little bored at work

My first trip out (with a Jeep at least) was throught LT with Jeff as the leader. I've spent most of my life offroad but usually traversing terrain 60-80mph. Wheelin' is much different. During this time I found Jeff (and Travis equally as well) to be the most patient spotters one could ever expect. In another post (that I won't mention) leadership and sticking with your group especially when things go wrong was emphasized. Jeff would be someone that would help you with everything from changing a tire to swapping out a clutch (if someone had a spare) on the trail without thinking twice. Thanks guys, I don't think wheelin' would be as much fun as it is today without you guys.... oh yeh, and Barry too (but Barry brought up Jeff so I'm taking the ball and running with it). The majority of the wheelin' trips I've been on was with Barry and he's shown me what my rig can do...now if I can only keep my Heep prettier than his has gotten over the past year (at least for a bit longer)... :eek:

Mike

[twstdtj]

Quote:
Originally Posted by xFallen

Hats off to Jeff Stewart (as one example that comes to mind -- I am sure there are others desrving as well) for the numerous times he has led very large groups of inexperienced drivers and sometimes underbuilt rigs through Lower Terminator or Judgement Day, for example. It is a lot of work and takes huge amounts of time and patience dragging people off the pebbles and guiding them through the trail in one piece.


Barry


I have listened to Jeff one too many times and ended up sideways on the trail or in a precarious line just for Jeff's entertainment.



Just kidding, I agree with what you have said and it takes a good leader and group to have fun. It is difficult to get a group of people through a run (especially a large group) without upsetting one person or another. People sometimes think that the leaders come off snooty if they ask to know who is coming and how their rigs are set up, but it gives us a good idea of how the day will end up and what to expect. I don’t want to stir the pot I just want to say thanks to Jeff as well – You are the man, man!

I am a little bored at work




OK I never knew you guys felt that way about me :o :eek: Im a litle scared (or scarred).

Seriously though in my opinion leading trails makes you a better wheeler. You get to spot people through lines, at the same you learn more about what lines work, and which ones dont, you learn that just because a certain lline works for one vehicle/type/driver it might not work with another due to wheelbase, build and or driving style. No matter the group their will always be different and sometimes dis-agreeing personalities. This is what makes life interesting. The key is not to let anything get too personal. People will learn with experience. (I didnt get this cool overnight you know :D ) I have wheeled with many people that may or may not been good trail leaders and will wheel with any of them again. The main thing is you guys were out wheeling and Im sure everybody learns something new each run.(I still have not learned to retain my springs :rolleyes: ) To me the worst day wheeling has always been better than the best day working.

I think I just spent my .02


twstd out.....

[Wind_Danzer]

I haver to agree Jeff and Barry are awesome leaders. I also have to give props to Stu too.

[Jdemonto@Airpark Jeep Sales]

I'm hoping that the number of posted runs doesn't diminish as a result of this crap. :(


Don't worry they won't!!! I fully intend to go wheeling again!!!!!! I work 75hrs a week and wheeling is my way of relaxing!!!! How about folks updated their signiture like mine (pic and discription)..at least we would have a understanding of what rigs are joining our trip????