Bushmaster in 6.8 SPC

[SavageSun4x4]

View this Edition of Bushmaster Firearms News

http://www.bushmaster.com/email/08182006.asp?CustNo=290869&EmailAddress=%5BEmailAddress%5D&Name=DON%20PRYOR

[knockonit]

sounds like a nice unit, I have built several ar's and fals, will have to consider this unit for a future build. Bushmaster is always coming up with something new, I expect DMPS will be right behind them, with this design and or caliber
ric j.

[AZJeepdad]

Methinks that unless Uncle Sugar offically adopts this ctg, it will be a dead horse in 10 years or less. 6.5 Grendel is a MUCH better ctg with a larger variety of projectile weight offerings and better down range ballistics. I still love my AR platforms in 5.56, but its hard to beat a G3 of a FAL for general long range splatting.

[SavageSun4x4]

6.5 Grendel is a MUCH better ctg with a larger variety of projectile weight offerings and better down range ballistics.
The 6.8 is the .270 cal, which has been around for a LONG time. Whether or not they are one-in-the-same I don't know.

I am not real up on the 6.5??

I do like the 6.8 and would like to see a ballistics comparo between the two. I you provide a link??

[AZJeepdad]

The 6.8 is the .270 cal, which has been around for a LONG time. Whether or not they are one-in-the-same I don't know.

I am not real up on the 6.5??

I do like the 6.8 and would like to see a ballistics comparo between the two. I you provide a link??

http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/airborne_combat_engineer/2004/03/65mm_grendel_ak.html

[SavageSun4x4]

Methinks that unless Uncle Sugar offically adopts this ctg, it will be a dead horse in 10 years or less. 6.5 Grendel is a MUCH better ctg with a larger variety of projectile weight offerings and better down range ballistics. I still love my AR platforms in 5.56, but its hard to beat a G3 of a FAL for general long range splatting.
I reviewed your link and downloaded the ballistics chart and I see the 6.5 has some advantage at varying distances but to call it a "MUCH" better round is a stretch.

As to whether or not Uncle Sugar officially adopts it or not, dunno. What I do know is the 6.5 Grendel is nothing but a one-off wildcat round of which the landscape of munitions has been littered with as long as I can remember. In fact I don't doubt that another knowledgeable person can cook up a wildcat that will outperform the 6.5...and the beat goes on.

The dream is strong but rarely does it come to fruition. The drawbacks of the 5.56 NATO are well defined so in the hazy smoke of a crack pipe we dream of a better, hotter, faster, more knock down power of a round and Uncle Sugar will beat a path to our door. Of course there is the movie like "Carbine Williams" and the place in history like the Browning MG.

Having a few friends that were/are involved with rifle/bullet selection they will tell you better is not the criteria.


I view munitions from several viewpoints. Hunting game, as an Infantry solider and self/home defense.

From a hunting viewpoint the 7.62 family is as good as it gets for this continent. Step up and I like the 375 H&H Mag. With those two rounds in your belt there is nothing on the face of this planet that is not one shot, one kill. From <10 yards to out beyond 1000 yards.

As a combat soldier I would like to see a bit more guts in the 5.56. I really like the 6.8. I have a VERY keen nose, better than the average person. In Vietnam I could smell when we were going to get hit and from where they were coming. Not only did the VC stink but they toked up before the attack.

The military has always approached individual firepower on the battlefield with yesterdays ideology. When I came in I was issued an M14 and taught to hit targets at ranges of 1000 meters...WTF. Close combat was done with a bayonet...HOLY CRAP WTF is this????

These thoughts reflected hundreds of years of conflict based upon weapons that took nearly 45 seconds to load after each volley. WWII hit and the M1 carbine was quickly rushed into production in order to support the war in the jungles of the Pacific and combat in the cities of Europe. So what did they do when the war was over? Shuck the M1 carbine, and improve the M1 rifle calling it a M14.

Finally somebody got the idea, after Korea that maybe we needed something else. Interestingly enough it was the Air Force that pushed it and out of that came the AR15/M16. Of note here is that the Army went kicking and screaming to accept it and finally did by changing the twist of the rifling for more accuracy beyond 300 meters. Of course one of their chief objections was the lack of knock down power at 1000 meters. In spite of all studies done of combat from WWII on, soldiers do not engage the enemy much beyond 50 meters.

It was only thru the demands of SF/Rangers/LRRP etc that the military developed the M4 with its shortened barrel. Of course every combat soldier in Nam wanted one so we could shoot and move in the Jungles. Of course the Army only issued them to the above who DO NOT have a mission to [like the Infantry] "to close with and engage the enemy". WTF...hey, hey guys, Col, General, its us dog faces than need the short barrels, WE are doing the fighting here!!

Smokin Dope: Viet Cong did it big time so do the the folks we are fighting now. The military and supporting civilian agencies did lots of studies on the 5.56 round showing that when it hit the watermelon or jelly block how it did damage and we got a kill. Ask any soldier or LEO about some guy coming at you hopped up on weed, meth, morphine etc. A gut, lung shot with 5.56 doesn't stop him, better hit him with something that has a bit more knock down power. Maybe they should give the watermelon some meth...

I like the form factor of the current M4 and sure as hell don't want to go back to the M14 albeit your upper body strength and biceps look like something out of a fitness mag, give me the M4 with a 6.8...

[AZJeepdad]

Don,

Good observations. I still think the issue with "stopping" a target has to do with the M855 ammo, twist rate and barrell length. With M193 55gr ammo and a 20in 1 in 12 twist barrel, the 5.56 does what it's supposed to do, put down the bad guys. Fast fwd to the A2 version of the M16 and we got a 20in 1 in 7 twist barrel to help stabalize the longer tracer rounds. Then we got the M855 62gr "penetrator tip" ammo that will punch a helmet @ 600M but also go right thru close range targets with little effort, then keep going and going.....So lets further complicate the overpenetration problem by shortening the barrel to 14.5in a la M4 to decrease the long range penetration potential by dumping the velocity. Now we have a weapon system that mimics sticking an ice pick into the bad guy and the everyone wonders why they run away even after several "A" zone hits.

IMHO, a 1 in 9 twist M4 configured carbine with M193 55gr ammo would be the best selection for CQB and urban fighting to ensure the "bad guys" stay anchored to the ground leaking from well placed holes.

BTW, I'm a fan of the FAL, but don't relish the idea of humping one day in and out.

Tom

[SavageSun4x4]

Don,

Good observations. I still think the issue with "stopping" a target has to do with the M855 ammo, twist rate and barrell length. With M193 55gr ammo and a 20in 1 in 12 twist barrel, the 5.56 does what it's supposed to do, put down the bad guys. Fast fwd to the A2 version of the M16 and we got a 20in 1 in 7 twist barrel to help stabalize the longer tracer rounds. Then we got the M855 62gr "penetrator tip" ammo that will punch a helmet @ 600M but also go right thru close range targets with little effort, then keep going and going.....So lets further complicate the overpenetration problem by shortening the barrel to 14.5in a la M4 to decrease the long range penetration potential by dumping the velocity. Now we have a weapon system that mimics sticking an ice pick into the bad guy and the everyone wonders why they run away even after several "A" zone hits.

IMHO, a 1 in 9 twist M4 configured carbine with M193 55gr ammo would be the best selection for CQB and urban fighting to ensure the "bad guys" stay anchored to the ground leaking from well placed holes.

BTW, I'm a fan of the FAL, but don't relish the idea of humping one day in and out.

Tom
A fellow who used to work for me and is also a very good friend sits on the Army board that wrangles thru all this. Jim, is a very smart guy, medic in Nam and has been around. When I ask him about where all this is going he just spins his eyes and sez most likely, nowhere and follow the money. Sadly Jim will be retiring soon and his expertise will be lost. But moreso a voice of reason based upon experience.

The 6.8 has been looked at and some will see a bit of action, in fact some are in place now. BUT that does not mean the fighting soldier will get one.

The SOF gets almost any toy they want or can dream up. SOMETIMES this will transfer over to the soldier on the ground, but rarely so.

Here again let me restate the mission of the Infantry...to close with and engage the enemy.

No one else in the military has this mission, in fact only the Infantry fights. The remainder of the military conduct operations in support of this. No one else has a dog in the fight.

Marines: to deploy rapidly by any and all means and conduct operations from Special Purpose to .....

Now lots of folks gets dragged into the fight, Artillery, Combat Engineers, Marines, SeaBees etc, etc. But, their mission is not to CLOSE with and ENGAGE the enemy.

Since the Infantry is based upon a table of organization and equipment, TO&E and many other units are table of distribution and allowance, TDA, the TO&E has to follow the rules as dictated by HQDA. TDA established requirements at the mission level. [the whole scheme is very complicated, but this is it in a nutshell] The result is some folks get neat guns, boots, knives, etc, etc.

[SavageSun4x4]

For all you FAL fans this is where we are headed:

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as70-e.htm