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View Full Version : FJ Night Run 7/8 - (Lower Woodpecker)



VIVIsectI
07-07-2006, 02:29 PM
Getting mixed emotions regarding the rating for this trail. Regardless though, stockish Jeeps should probably stay away, I don't want to be responsible for broken stuff other than my own.

Meet at flagpole 7:30PM Saturday evening and roll out by 8:15 at the latest. Please do yourself a favor and post up if you are going to come, if noone signs up here it's unlikely that we will go.

We'll do Lower Woodpecker and then may breeze through upper if time permits.

So Far:

VIVIsectI
Scully (tentative)

xFallen
07-07-2006, 02:40 PM
Getting mixed emotions regarding the rating for this trail. Regardless though, stockish Jeeps should probably stay away, I don't want to be responsible for broken stuff other than my own.

Meet at flagpole 7:30PM Saturday evening and roll out by 8:15 at the latest. Please do yourself a favor and post up if you are going to come, if noone signs up here it's unlikely that we will go.

We'll do Lower Woodpecker and then may breeze through upper if time permits.

So Far:

VIVIsectI
Scully (tentative)

The trail is "easy" if you stay off the largely optional obstacles. That's what most people (here) seem to do -- stay off the obstacles then they end up thinking it is easy. It used to be a road after all. It is the optional obstacles (sometimes easily overlooked if you don't know where they are) that give this trail its challenge and its rating. If you are missing the obstacles you may be missing out on the fun of the trail. If you are using the trail as a means to get to other trail heads it doesn't matter much I guess.

For example, all the people bypassing Fire Hole then saying it was no big thing. It isn't when you don't do it! ;)

Barry

VIVIsectI
07-07-2006, 02:54 PM
The trail is "easy" if you stay off the largely optional obstacles. That's what most people (here) seem to do -- stay off the obstacles then they end up thinking it is easy. If you are missing the obstacles you may be missing out on the fun of the trail.
Barry

Why don't you come out and show us where all the obstacles are Barry?

VIVIsectI
07-07-2006, 02:57 PM
For example, all the people bypassing Fire Hole then saying it was no big thing. It isn't when you don't do it! ;)


And when we ran Upper last week I only think I took one by-pass all night and it was just on a little hill that I saw 2 people crunch their fenders on.

mingoglia
07-07-2006, 03:49 PM
Why don't you come out and show us where all the obstacles are Barry?

I was going to suggest that as well Barry. My wife is going out tonight with her friend so last night I was thinking of a last minute wheelin' trip. If you don't want to spend hundreds of $$$ on fuel I can either pick your junk up (pick up your trailer first) or Derek can come pick you up (he has a Duramax and lives on I17/Happy Valley). :)

Mike

mtg1993
07-07-2006, 03:57 PM
Lower Woodpecker will take all of 30 minutes max......its like 1/8 of a mile if that....there are only two sections to get mixed on but other than that it is just a road connecting back to the road that gets you to Upper Woodpecker....by the way how was Upper woodpecker for you guys???

VIVIsectI
07-07-2006, 04:01 PM
Lower Woodpecker will take all of 30 minutes max......its like 1/8 of a mile if that....
I'm just doing what people have recommended. They said that I need to run Lower Woodpecker and take no bypasses and then see how I feel about H-Way 2 Hell. Maybe Upper Ajax will be in order for this trip too? Depending on who shows up and how familiar people are with the trails in the area we could end up doing different things.


Last Saturday was pretty uneventfull, too many rigs so it took a while but we had some fun. No-one broke anything and no body damage to speak of.

scully
07-07-2006, 04:27 PM
Hey Mike, you should go, that way I can give you back your "special" movie!:)
I think it would be great to have some of the experienced guys make this run or one like it, you could think of it as being a mentor for us pups that are just really starting to get our feet wet!

VIVIsectI
07-07-2006, 04:30 PM
I don't even want to know what movie you are talking about.

JCSXJ
07-07-2006, 04:36 PM
Hmmmmmm....Do I go wheeling or do I stay home and watch the UFC pay per view fight?

VIVIsectI
07-07-2006, 04:41 PM
Dude, that fight is gonna be a bust, shamrock is gonna get his face kicked 2 minutes into the fight after not throwing a punch.

JCSXJ
07-07-2006, 04:49 PM
Shamrock is defently going down and it will be fun to watch. I hate that guy! I'll let you know for sure tomorrow. I'm going out to White Tanks tonight

JCSXJ
07-07-2006, 04:50 PM
VIVI, you feel like making a little drive tonight? We are going to meet out there at 7:00

VIVIsectI
07-07-2006, 04:57 PM
I'm taking the kids to the circus tonight so I can't be game for anything. Let me know where you stand tomarrow.

xFallen
07-07-2006, 05:31 PM
Why don't you come out and show us where all the obstacles are Barry?

My rig is off line for a while. The steering box blew a seal which requires it to be rebuilt. I am going hyrdo (full or assist) but need to hold off a bit until I know what I am doing with the new build.

To me that trail is mostly a play area. There are many obstacles along the sides to play on and lots of scenery in the general vicinity. But I consider it the way to get to H2H. Although I have had fun on it many a time, not sure I'd go 200 miles round trip out there for an evening for just that one -- that's just me though. But, you could do the fun parts of the Wood Peckers, the fun stuff on Ajax (because most of it is pretty boring too) then maybe do H2H and majke a night (or day) of it quite nicely with appropriately equipped rigs with spares and tools.

If you run H2H, be sure to take the Fire Hole, and do the v-notch, and take the big falls. For the bigger obstacles on H2H I urge you to drive them or at least try real hard even if you have to winch just so you know what it takes to get up. Although winching doesn't teach you a whole lot, driving around them teaches you almost nothing.

Have people put weight on the front or pull the front down and forward manually -- it is amazing how much front end weight (which usually equates to traction) makes. People go on and on about balance this that and the other thing. That's all fine. Balance is not equality. Forward weight bias definitely helps in this game since the bulk of climbs are UP.


Barry

rogbrown
07-08-2006, 11:10 AM
Can you tell me where the flag pole is? I have a map of the area but I have no idea where the flag pole may be located.

Thanks.

Roger
XJ, 2" lift, 31" tires, TT in F/R, full skids

DrewDog
07-08-2006, 11:12 AM
TJ, I'm out in the shop now trying to get my junk up and running. I'll let you know in a few hours.......Drew

scully
07-08-2006, 12:00 PM
Do we have a current head count? Do we have someone coming that knows the trail? Does anybody really know what time it is? (couldn't resist):D
How about doing Ajax?

By the way I'm in!

VIVIsectI
07-08-2006, 01:05 PM
Flag pole is between 3 and 5 miles south of US 60 on HWay 79. Big open area with a flagpole and one of those USFS map houses in the middle. You will pass one flagpole on the 79 before getting to the actual "flagpole" meeting spot. If my directions suck or you are directionally challenged you can meet Scully and myself at the Circle K on the southwest corner of Dobson/Quadelupe or we can arrange to meet at the gas station in Gold Canyon. My Cell is 480*209*8870 - if you are running late or lost please call.

What is this crap about know the trails Scully? Noone needs to know the trails cause we are of infinite wisdom and vast 4x4 skill. LOL, I don't know if anyone coming or possibly coming knows the trails. I don't care.


Currently going:

VIVIsectI
Scully
CaveGimp (taking bypasses and may be riding along with someone else)
JCSX (tentative)
DrewDog (tentative)
RockNRich (tentative[most likely])

Cave Gimp
07-08-2006, 01:16 PM
It wouldn't be any fun if we didn't get lost a few times. Getting lost makes the trip a real adventure. :)

See you guys at the flag pole.

scully
07-08-2006, 01:17 PM
Flag pole is between 3 and 5 miles south of US 60 on HWay 79. Big open area with a flagpole and one of those USFS map houses in the middle. You will pass one flagpole on the 79 before getting to the actual "flagpole" meeting spot. If my directions suck or you are directionally challenged you can meet Scully and myself at the Circle K on the southwest corner of Dobson/Quadelupe or we can arrange to meet at the gas station in Gold Canyon. My Cell is 480*209*8870 - if you are running late or lost please call.

What is this crap about know the trails Scully? Noone needs to know the trails cause we are of infinite wisdom and vast 4x4 skill. LOL, I don't know if anyone coming or possibly coming knows the trails. I don't care.


Currently going:

VIVIsectI
Scully
CaveGimp (taking bypasses and may be riding along with someone else)
JCSX (tentative)
DrewDog (tentative)
RockNRich (tentative[most likely])

Sorry TJ, I forgot about that wisdom and skill stuff!:p

I think Dad's coming too, He's just post shy!

YJunk, are you and the crew coming? You know you want to!

VIVIsectI
07-08-2006, 01:26 PM
VIVIsectI
Scully
HighlandRubicon
CaveGimp (taking bypasses and may be riding along with someone else)
JCSX (tentative)
DrewDog (tentative)
RockNRich (tentative[most likely])

d10shun
07-08-2006, 01:44 PM
VIVIsectI
Scully
HighlandRubicon
CaveGimp (taking bypasses and may be riding along with someone else)
JCSX (tentative)
DrewDog (tentative)
RockNRich (tentative[most likely])


D10shun (Ben) Im in Gilbert if anyone needs a lift 480.220.5821

VIVIsectI
07-08-2006, 03:13 PM
VIVIsectI
Scully
HighlandRubicon
D10shun
DrewDog
CaveGimp (taking bypasses and may be riding along with someone else)

JCSX (tentative)
RockNRich (tentative[most likely])

rogbrown
07-08-2006, 03:15 PM
VIVIsectI,

What time will you be at the Circle K? I'll meet you there. I have a Red XJ.

Roger
XJ, 2" Lift, 31" tires, TT in F/R, full skids

d10shun
07-08-2006, 03:24 PM
To be clear, we are meeting at the flagpole on Highway 79 between mile marker 144-145 correct?

VIVIsectI
07-08-2006, 03:27 PM
We meet at the Circle K on Dobson/Guadelupe at 6:30 but Scully is usually late. Can I count you as tentative Roger?

Ben, I'm not certain on the mile markers but there is no way you can miss it, it's a big clear area surounded with logs like a coral and a big flagpole. It's on the east side of hway 79 apx 3 - 5 miles south of US 60.

Jdemonto
07-08-2006, 03:32 PM
I'm in on this trip, I can meet at the flag pole at 7:45-8:00pm..I don't want to hold anyone up though!!! Give me a call if its a problem..i'm at work, can't spend time on the computer!!!!


Jason@602-751-7382

RokNRich
07-08-2006, 03:47 PM
I'm at about 90% right now. Just installed a new tie rod and was trying to get my ds angle correct on the rear, seems like everything held together when I took it around the block.

I'll be coming the back way, through Johnson Ranch.

VIVIsectI
07-08-2006, 04:01 PM
VIVIsectI
Scully
HighlandRubicon
D10shun
DrewDog
RokNRich (90% :D )
JDemonto
CaveGimp (taking bypasses and may be riding along with someone else)

JCSX (tentative)

VIVIsectI
07-08-2006, 04:02 PM
Looks like we got a good sized group of rigs heading out. Make sure everyone brings whatever spares you may need and plenty of water. Don't want to see anyone dehydrating out there and I don't want anyone having to leave their rig.

RokNRich
07-08-2006, 04:18 PM
I'm assuming "water" is a code word for favorite frosty beverage (Dr Pepper in my icebox) ?

The last time I saw Drew in FJ:

http://www.photodump.com/direct/rich1520/DSC00032.jpg

mtg1993
07-08-2006, 05:09 PM
Count me in as Tentative right now!!!!! Hopefully I can make this trip this time!!!

VIVIsectI
07-08-2006, 06:08 PM
VIVIsectI
Scully
HighlandRubicon
D10shun
DrewDog
RokNRich (90% :) )
JDemonto
CaveGimp (taking bypasses and may be riding along with someone else)

JCSX (tentative)
mtg1993 (tentative right now!!!!!)

DrewDog
07-08-2006, 06:26 PM
LOL, I remember that day well.......Drew

Cave Gimp
07-09-2006, 04:44 AM
Good times on this run. Let us know how Drew's jeep is doing, if he was able to get it out or not.

Jdemonto
07-09-2006, 05:50 AM
I'm not sure how he getting that jeep out?????? Anybody have a yj knuckle right side???? I think he broke the front shaft too...he can most likely be winched over everything if he can get a knuckle or get a welder out there.

scully
07-09-2006, 07:28 AM
I just rolled in. We had quite the adventure tonight! I'll post details later, now its time for a shower and a nap!

mtg1993
07-09-2006, 09:13 AM
Let me know if he needs any help????/ I would be more than willing to lend a hand.....I also have a front driveshaft if that is what is broken also?????

mingoglia
07-09-2006, 09:19 AM
If anyone has a trailer I'd be willing to head out there and pick him up once we got it off the trail. In addition if we have a few batteries and a couple of sets of jumper cables I have welding rod although it won't be pretty since we won't be able to adjust the current we should be able to get him off the trail.

Not sure how deep he's in but I could also bring the Rhino and load it with the spare batteries, welding rod, parts, etc and get to him within a few minutes and it has a relatively large bed for tools/parts/etc.

If you need help I'll be available today. 480 205 5728
Mike

DesertRat
07-09-2006, 09:27 AM
I to am aviable if he needs anything (South Chandler) so it would not take long for me to get there.
480-252-0240

RokNRich
07-09-2006, 10:03 AM
Ben and I are heading out with the parts for his rig, should be at the flagpole at 9:45 if anyone is ready and willing. Drew is going to need some help, good excuse to blow off church.........

DesertRat
07-09-2006, 10:45 AM
I just got of the phone with Drew, he is heading to Chandler to pickup the last part. I will meet him at the Flag Pole and take to his rig from there.

mingoglia
07-09-2006, 10:47 AM
My wife had to run to her office and I'm stuck at home with the kids for at least 2-3 hours or I'd make it up there. If you guys are still having trouble in a couple hours and need something else run out there call me 480-205-5728

DesertRat
07-09-2006, 10:55 AM
My wife had to run to her office and I'm stuck at home with the kids for at least 2-3 hours or I'd make it up there. If you guys are still having trouble in a couple hours and need something else run out there call me 480-205-5728

Ok, will do. I got your number. Just waiting for Drew to call then I am heading out.

ROKCRLR
07-09-2006, 10:57 AM
I'll be free in about 2 hours if you guys need anything else also. My # is 480-221-8943.

DesertRat
07-09-2006, 11:02 AM
I'll be free in about 2 hours if you guys need anything else also. My # is 480-221-8943.

Ok, thanks man. Got your number.

Jdemonto
07-09-2006, 11:24 AM
He's not far far the top I walked out last night/morning, if you run it backwards, you can reach him pretty fast.

Jason

FrenchChili
07-09-2006, 03:07 PM
What happened?

HighlandRubicon
07-09-2006, 05:50 PM
If you would like to catch up on last nights run and carnage, check out the "Ajax Carnage Asada" in the General Discussion area. Pictures of "some" of the carnage. Yes, there was more, but those were the "big" ones.

We missed you on this trip.:D

DesertRat
07-09-2006, 08:31 PM
We got Drew's jeep out and he was able to drive it to Chandler with only the front axle and it was locked. He did a great job driving it back. I am surprised he did not get pulled over for drunk driving.:D
This all came to an end around 6:30 :eek:
I am sure Drew is in la la land now zzzzz :D

DrewDog
07-09-2006, 10:01 PM
No sleep yet! WOW what a night! First off, hats off to all the guys here at AZVJC. There isn't a group out there that can match the hearts of jeep owners. To break down in the middle of the night and know that everyone out there is doing everything in their power to get you back home and with your rig is a good feeling. Rich, TJ, Mike, Ben, Brian and company thank you ALL so much for all the help. I couldn’t sleep with out posting a thanks. Great night of wheel and with a great group…..Drew

Thy to listen tomorrow, I’m sure this will come up on air (5:30-10am 103.9)

d10shun
07-10-2006, 11:03 PM
If you would like to catch up on last nights run and carnage, check out the "Ajax Carnage Asada" in the General Discussion area. Pictures of "some" of the carnage. Yes, there was more, but those were the "big" ones.

We missed you on this trip.:D

Yes, yes - you got some body damage. Now lets see the pictures!:D Are you going to just fix it or upgrade?

Here is more of mine to rub it in a little.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a380/d10shun/DSC03645.jpg

HighlandRubicon
07-11-2006, 12:05 AM
Hey Ben, that wasn't talking more about your carnage, it was referring to Bryans, TJs (yep, I thought I saw three scratched areas), and mine. I busted up the fender flare quite a bit and the tub is now concave. I'll try to post a picture of it, so you will know you weren't alone. A year ago, I didn't know I'd be doing this kind of thing:eek

RokNRich
07-11-2006, 12:08 AM
That looks like it will buff right out Ian,
I missed Bryan's, got a pic of that ?

HighlandRubicon
07-11-2006, 12:19 AM
No, sorry about that, didn't get Bryan's. He did really get it though. The tub was quite well "dented" and his door hinges were re-located. As it looks, his door wouldn't line up, close on drivers side. We were trying to figure out how he can get the dents out and get the door frame aligned again. He may post some picts later.

I was trying to put the picture in here, but I must be doing something wrong, it just doesn't want to post.

Most of what you see is dirt/dust, it's concave on the tub, with the worst just under the flare.

Jdemonto
07-11-2006, 12:35 AM
WOW!!! This trip tops the damage,Glad i walked it instead!!!! I need to upgrade to body armor before I attept a trail like upper Ajax!!! It kills me to see body damage like that,espeacially on a new jeep!!!

xFallen
07-11-2006, 07:47 AM
WOW!!! This trip tops the damage,Glad i walked it instead!!!! I need to upgrade to body armor before I attept a trail like upper Ajax!!! It kills me to see body damage like that,espeacially on a new jeep!!!

Sheet metal damage is absolutley assured in rock crawling which is why it isn't carnage.


Barry

DFRacing
07-11-2006, 08:07 AM
Sheet metal damage is absolutley assured in rock crawling which is why it isn't carnage.


Barry

Amen on that, especially on the 3 & up rated trails. :)
I even did a little scraping to the body on the Yahmaha Rhino when I did upper Ajax with it. At least the panels are plastic;)

Jdemonto
07-11-2006, 08:59 AM
Sheet metal damage is absolutley assured in rock crawling which is why it isn't carnage.


Barry

i guess i'm lucky or very carefull!!!!! I think there is a big difference when you own your jeep instead of the bank on how carefull or careless you are on the trail.

d10shun
07-11-2006, 11:24 AM
Yeah forgot about Bryan's damage. He really went at it good. Time for rocksliders for the both of us.

DrewDog
07-11-2006, 01:00 PM
Wear body damage like badges of honor or reminders of a ?oops? from your spotter?..Drew

DFRacing
07-11-2006, 01:04 PM
i guess i'm lucky or very carefull!!!!! I think there is a big difference when you own your jeep instead of the bank on how carefull or careless you are on the trail.

Be carefull is great as long as being careful does not include Stacking on the 3 & up rated trails.;) :p

xFallen
07-11-2006, 01:40 PM
i guess i'm lucky or very carefull!!!!! I think there is a big difference when you own your jeep instead of the bank on how carefull or careless you are on the trail.

Maybe for some but certainly not for all. You're either committed or not. COmmitted means you're going to tackle the obstacles and assume the risks of not making it. There are simply situations where scraping is unavoidable or times where you end up on the wrong end of the risk equation. You'll find that out if or when you take on the more challenging trails and negotiate the obstacles that are on those trails, or even take the ovbstacles on the trails you run now. Plus, the unexpected will eventually occur.

As to careful, who knows. Not sure I've heard of many people spending 3 hours on ower Terminator unless they were broken down, so you may well be more careful. Mind you I can't think of any body damage I have personally done on that trail except for maybe scraping a tree branch somewhere. I am sure people have though. That particular trail should take maybe about 30 minutes and that's doing all the normal obstacles. I say normal because there are some toward the end that are effectively comp level.


Barry

Renob
07-11-2006, 02:26 PM
Ok, so when are you guys running H2H?

VIVIsectI
07-11-2006, 03:18 PM
Ok, so when are you guys running H2H?
When I get my corners and sliders!

FrenchChili
07-11-2006, 03:35 PM
That particular trail should take maybe about 30 minutes and that's doing all the normal obstacles.

ya well guess who was leading :D:D:D

fatbob309
07-11-2006, 03:35 PM
i guess i'm lucky or very carefull!!!!! I think there is a big difference when you own your jeep instead of the bank on how carefull or careless you are on the trail.

You aren't lucky, you are just slow... How long did it take you to get over that first rock when we did that first full moon run? :eek: :D
Oh and the bank still owns mine for a few more payments... the tub is so bent that the seams are spliting.:cool:

Renob
07-11-2006, 03:55 PM
Ok, so when are you guys running H2H?

When I get my corners and sliders!And lower gears, stronger axles, lockers, larger tires, etc.

VIVIsectI
07-11-2006, 07:44 PM
And lower gears, stronger axles, lockers, larger tires, etc.

Why does it always seem to me like you want to pee all over everyones parade? That's great that you think I'm so under-equiped and you feel the need to chide me for it.

Renob
07-11-2006, 08:52 PM
Why does it always seem to me like you want to pee all over everyones parade? That's great that you think I'm so under-equipped and you feel the need to chide me for it.Ok, I'll just join the crowd and tell you you can make it with what you have. Then you can blame me when you have smashed the crap out of your Jeep (which I believe is your daily driver) and you're stuck in the desert in 100+ degree temps while everyone else drives back and forth getting parts to get you home.

The trail rating system is not perfect but is there to advise you of the suggested equipment one should have before attempting a trail. I would hope this info or the advice of others would not be ignored.

It's not about breaking everything on your rig or spending 4 hours on a 30 minuet trail. It's about running what you're rig is capable of and getting home without it costing more than the experience was worth.

I have nothing against you and would not leave you stranded if I found you broken on a trail. I just don't want to find you that way.

So, I guess I should use a smiley face next time I am giving you crap so you won't take it so seriously, here it is :D <----- Insert at end of my last post.

DFRacing
07-11-2006, 09:12 PM
Why does it always seem to me like you want to pee all over everyones parade? That's great that you think I'm so under-equiped and you feel the need to chide me for it.


What he is saying, make sure you are ready and your rig is ready for that level of a trail. Spare parts, winch, clearance, lockers frt. & rear and no worries about body damage is a min.req.for this trail.;)
If you think upper ajax is hard then do not attempt H2H:p
I have ran across many rigs on H2H broke and stranded because nobody was prepared.:D

Renob
07-11-2006, 09:29 PM
What he is saying, make sure you are ready and your rig is ready for that level of a trail. Spare parts, winch, clearance, lockers frt. & rear and no worries about body damage is a min.req.for this trail.;)
If you think upper ajax is hard then do not attempt H2H:p
I have ran across many rigs on H2H broke and stranded because nobody was prepared.:DThanks Todd, I think sometimes I come across as crass but I like to get to the point without having to message the collective Jeep ego first. The key word in "Rock Crawling" is Crawl. Excessive throttle is applied way too often to compensate for not being properly equipped.

VIVIsectI
07-11-2006, 09:35 PM
I understand that trail raitings are subjective, this has been proven by myself when I ran Upper Ajax this weekend with 33" tires and open front axle. Given, I didn't run the crack Scully and his dad recieved their body damage in. I did however take the same line that was taken by drew when he destroyed his rear DS u-joint and knuckle and where D10Shun busted his tierod end. Given, I also didn't go through the last waterfall, it was quite late and the people that were leading us out were in a hurry. I would like to go back and tackle all the lines on the trail, maybe weekend after next.

RokNRich
07-11-2006, 09:40 PM
I'll take the hit for leading this trail. And like I said earlier, everyone was fine until the driveshaft broke. The driveshaft on a rig with lockers front and rear, 35" tires, an 8.8 rear, an 8274 winch and a competent driver that I have wheeled with before. The rest of the guys were at least on 33's and one traction device (LSD) I think. We also had several winches amongst us, tools, water, food, people who knew where we were going, etc.

I didn't think and wouldn't have run H2H though, and said so that night.

Were there mistakes made, sure, but it was a learning experience that's for sure. Not everyone is born JOEBADASSWHEELER, they have to learn. Stuff happens, the brave post pic's and talk about it !

:)

mtg1993
07-11-2006, 09:53 PM
X2 on that.......you have to run the trail receive some damage and learn from in order to gain confindence and know your rig and its capabilities. I have ran many trails that are rated 4.0 and had no problems.....ran 3.0 to 3.5 and had the hardest damn time because of theline that was available......So we scratch and move on and that is what makes us wheelers. Upgrade as we move on and do harder trails:D :D :D I personally have ran all those trail open on both ends with 3.07's......weird I get in more trouble fully locked and geared!!!!!:eek:

Renob
07-11-2006, 09:56 PM
I'll take the hit for leading this trail. And like I said earlier, everyone was fine until the driveshaft broke. The driveshaft on a rig with lockers front and rear, 35" tires, an 8.8 rear, an 8274 winch and a competent driver that I have wheeled with before. The rest of the guys were at least on 33's and one traction device (LSD) I think. We also had several winches amongst us, tools, water, food, people who knew where we were going, etc.

I didn't think and wouldn't have run H2H though, and said so that night.

Were there mistakes made, sure, but it was a learning experience that's for sure. Not everyone is born JOEBADASSWHEELER, they have to learn. Stuff happens, the brave post pic's and talk about it !

:)Everyone has to start somewhere and learn. So, the ones who have broken before and/or recovered others in this same situation, for what it's worth, give their advice.

VIVIsectI
07-11-2006, 09:56 PM
speaking of pics, heres the two scratches I got on ajax. See if you can find them.

http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6372&stc=1&d=1152676524

http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6373&stc=1&d=1152676524

DFRacing
07-11-2006, 09:57 PM
Were there mistakes made, sure, but it was a learning experience that's for sure. Not everyone is born JOEBADASSWHEELER, they have to learn. Stuff happens, the brave post pic's and talk about it !

:)

Where did anyone say anything negative about the carnage and the rigs on the trail.:confused:
Where did anyone come across as JOEBADASSWHEELER:confused: It was mention that some in the group want to go do H2H, and all that was said what is required for this level of trail and what to expect.

Ajax trail is about a level 2.5-3 rating
H2H trail is about a level 4-5 rating if you do the trail :confused:

The info is passed along so unexperience wheelers do not get in over thier heads, and keeping the tough trails from being stacked. It has nothing to do about being a JOEBADASSWHEELER.;)

DrewDog
07-11-2006, 09:59 PM
Speaking of picture, VIVIsectI where are the ones you took? Oh and RokNRich you forgot to add a chrome dash cover. It's my favorite mod............Drew

VIVIsectI
07-11-2006, 09:59 PM
Ajax trail is about a level 2.5-3 rating
H2H trail is about a level 4-5 rating if you do the trail :confused:


Uh, everywhere I've looked I've seen Upper Ajax rated 4.0 or better. H2H is rated either the same or half a point higher.

Renob
07-11-2006, 09:59 PM
speaking of pics, heres the two scratches I got on ajax. See if you can find them.

http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6372&stc=1&d=1152676524

http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6373&stc=1&d=1152676524Nice :D :D :D :D :D :D :D (is that enough smiley faces?)

mtg1993
07-11-2006, 09:59 PM
Hey Todd I thought Upper Ajax was at least a 3.5 to 4.0?????

VIVIsectI
07-11-2006, 10:00 PM
And I actually didn't take ANY pictures on the trail, that's a first for me. Ben was taking all the pictures that night.

Renob
07-11-2006, 10:02 PM
Uh, everywhere I've looked I've seen Upper Ajax rated 4.0 or better. H2H is rated either the same or half a point higher.If you just go by the trail ratings and ignore the advice of others, you may end up in a world of sheeit.
Oops, almost forgot the faces :D :D :D ;)

VIVIsectI
07-11-2006, 10:08 PM
If you just go by the trail ratings and ignore the advice of others, you may end up in a world of sheeit.

Oh totally understandable, I'm not ignorant, nor am I careless. I love my jeep and she IS my daily driver. I try to endanger her as little as possible, or at least as little as I am feasibly able to repair her. (dunno if that made sense) I've walked the first portion of H2H and seen what everyone refers to as the nasty first waterfall, I think I can get a winch up.

I'm going to put my foot in my mouth here, you guys have made me believe that I probably am not equiped to run that caliber of trail yet. BUT, you can damn well believe that I will be soon and I'll run it with a vengence. Thank you all for the input.

DrewDog
07-11-2006, 10:09 PM
Oh yeah, thing was I only remember him taking photos when I was under my jeep. Is he planning on blackmailing me with those? If so please see link below, I've been in worst spots.....D

http://www.photodump.com/direct/rich1520/DSC00032.jpg

VIVIsectI
07-11-2006, 10:09 PM
chrizist, you guys are going to keep me busy on this thread alone tonight.

DFRacing
07-11-2006, 10:12 PM
Uh, everywhere I've looked I've seen Upper Ajax rated 4.0 or better. H2H is rated either the same or half a point higher.


Not even close, Ajax has been around for a long time and has suffered from stacking.
H2H has suffered some from stacking but it still is a challenge to the best equipped rigs.

VIVIsectI
07-11-2006, 10:15 PM
Not even close, Ajax has been around for a long time and has suffered from stacking.
H2H has suffered some from stacking but it still is a challenge to the best equipped rigs.
Then someone on this site had better adjust the trail raitings and descriptions to match your assesment of the trail? Barry, can you offer some insight to the discrepency?

mtg1993
07-11-2006, 10:16 PM
Thats a heck uva trail for it only being a 2.5 to 3.0....maybe for someone setup like yourself or the like can easily walk the trail in about 30 minutes but that does not constitute a lower rating????

VIVIsectI
07-11-2006, 10:18 PM
seriously, if predator is rated a 3.5, It's my conclusion that upper ajax should be in the same category at least.

Renob
07-11-2006, 10:20 PM
With all the Ajax talk, I never found out if you guys ran Lower Woodpecker and if so, did you try running the comp lines forward and backward a few times? What did you think?

VIVIsectI
07-11-2006, 10:21 PM
Didn't get a chance to run it, there were some guys from AZ Brat Pack that came screaming by us and then parked on the first obstacle to drink bears.

scully
07-11-2006, 10:25 PM
Didn't get a chance to run it, there were some guys from AZ Brat Pack that came screaming by us and then parked on the first obstacle to drink bears.

TJ, I have to ask, how do you drink a Bear?:D

I think that someone in the Bratt Pack blew a tire which is what caused the back up.

DFRacing
07-11-2006, 10:25 PM
Thats a heck uva trail for it only being a 2.5 to 3.0....maybe for someone setup like yourself or the like can easily walk the trail in about 30 minutes but that does not constitute a lower rating????

It has nothing to do with the rig I drive, if I rated them in the rig I drive the hardest would be a 3.:( Example a group of us have done all the trails out there in 6-8 hours) I know what the trail use to be and what it is now. In comparison they are not even close.
I drove upper Ajax in a Yamaha Rhino, I would not try H2H in the Rhino.:D

RokNRich
07-11-2006, 10:29 PM
I knew I shouldn't have typed JOEBADASSWHEELER, I wasn't referriing to anyone, just trying to lighten things up and straighten some people out. Thanks for the advice and guidance from the more experienced.

But don't even get me started on trail ratings..............

:)

RokNRich
07-11-2006, 10:31 PM
It has nothing to do with the rig I drive, if I rated them in the rig I drive the hardest would be a 3.:( Example a group of us have done all the trails out there in 6-8 hours) I know what the trail use to be and what it is now. In comparison they are not even close.
I drove upper Ajax in a Yamaha Rhino, I would not try H2H in the Rhino.:D

Yes, and as others have said, as recently as May, this trail is rated a 4.0

http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/showthread.php?t=13814

mtg1993
07-11-2006, 10:31 PM
Ya but you cannot compare a Quad type vehicle to Jeep though....although most of trails are stacked I know I have been wheeling since 96 out there so I too know what they use to be but if take the lines and not the by passes then I would definatly ay it is in the very least a 3.5.....everyone is going to have their opinions but a 2.5 to a 3.0 does not do justice to this trail! You brought me down Todd man I thought I was tackling 4.0 trail now!!!! Ha

Renob
07-11-2006, 10:34 PM
Go play on LoWood next time you go out there. It is good experience and close to the road so any breakage recovery will be less of a task.

mtg1993
07-11-2006, 10:36 PM
So I guess Upper WoodPecker is like a stock to pleasure run now....damn I am gonna have to upgrade......Sorry could not resist!!!!!!

Renob
07-11-2006, 10:40 PM
So I guess Upper WoodPecker is like a stock to pleasure run now....damn I am gonna have to upgrade......Sorry could not resist!!!!!!Yes, it is one step above putting your tire on a curd at Chandler Fashion Square.
Not sorry, I couldn't resist ;)

DFRacing
07-11-2006, 10:43 PM
:D
Ya but you cannot compare a Quad type vehicle to Jeep though....although most of trails are stacked I know I have been wheeling since 96 out there so I too know what they use to be but if take the lines and not the by passes then I would definatly ay it is in the very least a 3.5.....everyone is going to have their opinions but a 2.5 to a 3.0 does not do justice to this trail! You brought me down Todd man I thought I was tackling 4.0 trail now!!!! Ha

OK call it a 4.0 , then H2H is a 5-6:D Believe it or not :p

The Rhino was a challenge and dimensionally they are close to a Sammy.;)

DFRacing
07-11-2006, 10:46 PM
So I guess Upper WoodPecker is like a stock to pleasure run now....damn I am gonna have to upgrade......Sorry could not resist!!!!!!

Yep, that is a major hwy.:p

Renob
07-11-2006, 10:51 PM
I have noticed some trails with allot of by-passes will eventually get rated lower, as closer to stock rigs can run them. So, the trail could effectively have two ratings. Say, a 2.5 by those taking the by-passes and a 4.0 for the actual trail (the obstacles)
It can happen :rolleyes:

xFallen
07-11-2006, 11:31 PM
I have noticed some trails with allot of by-passes will eventually get rated lower, as closer to stock rigs can run them. So, the trail could effectively have two ratings. Say, a 2.5 by those taking the by-passes and a 4.0 for the actual trail (the obstacles)
It can happen :rolleyes:

There is one rating. The trail ratings are for when all obstacles are taken.

Anything is easy if you don't do it. :rolleyes:

The ratings aren't likely to change (much) unless people stack the obstacles excessively without derocking, like what has happened on H2H as just one example by people who do not heed the minimum rig and trail requirements but insist on trying to get through anyway, thus ruining the trail.

There's lots of people here who have not yet mastered Lower Terminator, for example, because they haven't done all the obstacles consistently, and lots that have. We all probably have trails where one or two obsatcles elude or facinate us.


Barry

Renob
07-11-2006, 11:40 PM
I was not suggesting that trails be posted with two ratings. I was pointing out the reason some trails will receive two or more opinions on the rating, depending on what part of the trail you run.

I agree, there is only one way to truly run and rate a trail and that is including all of the obstacles. I do not always concur all of the obstacles the first time through a trail but I try to give them my best shot.


There is one rating. The trail ratings are for when all obstacles are taken.

Anything is easy if you don't do it. :rolleyes:

The ratings aren't likely to change (much) unless people stack the obstacles excessively without derocking, like what has happened on H2H for example by people who do not heed the minimum rig and trail requirements but insist on trying to get through anyway, thus ruining the trail.

There's lots of people here who have not yet mastered Lower Terminator, ofr example, because they haven't done all the obstacles consistently, and lots that have.


Barry

xFallen
07-12-2006, 12:10 AM
I was not suggesting that trails be posted with two ratings. I was pointing out the reason some trails will receive two or more opinions on the rating, depending on what part of the trail you run.

Understood. People need to undertstand the rating is for when you actually run the obstacles (without stacking) not when you just get yourself through the other end. Otherwise they are fooling themselves into thinking they've done something they haven't, is all.


I agree, there is only one way to truly run and rate a trail and that is including all of the obstacles. I do not always concur all of the obstacles the first time through a trail but I try to give them my best shot.

I try and do the same unless it's really very clear that there is no way. Everyone finds their own way of course.


Barry

mingoglia
07-12-2006, 10:46 AM
:D

OK call it a 4.0 , then H2H is a 5-6:D Believe it or not :p

The Rhino was a challenge and dimensionally they are close to a Sammy.;)


Not to get too much off topic but several years back I ran upper and lower ajax on a 2wd Polaris Sport I had at the time. It's really not too challenging for the seasoned ATVer in my opinion. I'm surprised you thought it was a challenge on a Rhino. Although I haven't brought my Rhino through there yet I wouldn't think it was much of a issue. I've run many many FJ runs in the Rhino but unfortunately the Ajax's and Woodpeckers are the only trails I know their name so I can't tell you where else I've gone. I found Ajax by accident when I was talking to someone else running the trail and I did the Woodpeckers with the company H2 we used to have a few years back. :cool: Usually on a quad/Rhino we traverse the trails so quickly we really don't stop to figure out what trail we're on. Over the winter when I was in FJ I did 125 miles on the Rhino running at top speed up and down that area. I took many difficult runs in between the "main trails" geocaching. I'd like to see H2H, I'd imagine if it could be run with anything other than a full blown buggy that I'd probably take the Rhino on it. I've typically found if you can get at least a tire or two to be solid on a obstacle even if part of the Rhino is completely high-centered in the air it can usually drag over it. FOr what it lacks in ground clearance it makes up for with it's completely smooth and countersunk bottom and tremendous traction for the weight vehicle. A 12" wide tire at 5psi goes a very very long way on a 1250 lb vehicle. The rear spool and front locker of course helps as well.

Mike

Tom Jacobson
07-12-2006, 11:09 AM
Awwww, man! The only trail I ever broken anything on is only a 2.5? :o :D I'll chalk it up to the Upper Ajax bad Mojo then, but it got a chromoly front axle (D30) from me last fall/winter.

Whatever everyone wants to call the trail rating, I personally would require 33's and one locker for that trail if I was leading it. Sure, better drivers can do more with less, but...with people you haven't met before, you never know. If I sign off as JOEBADASSWHEELER, who will actually believe me?!?! Heh heh!

Rich - don't think anyone would fault you for taking that particular group through Upper Ajax. Hope your group doesn't hold anything against you either. Stuff happens. We just need to be prepared, not only at the basic vehicle level, but also at the driver level and in the area of repairs/spare.

I'm nobody to talk there...as I NEED to get to the parts store for some spare joints and TRE's myself. :eek: :o :eek: Pushing my luck way too long.

Tom

ps. I always thought the "crack" (far right line, outside the HUGE boulder) at the spot where everyone broke WAS THE BYPASS???

Tom Jacobson
07-12-2006, 11:13 AM
Oh wait, I meant to close as...

TOMBADASSWHEELER :D :D :D

roger
07-12-2006, 12:34 PM
People need to undertstand the rating is for when you actually run the obstacles (without stacking) not when you just get yourself through the other end. Otherwise they are fooling themselves into thinking they've done something they haven't, is all.
I believe trails used to be rated based on the lowest difficulty level of all required obstacles. And this, to me, is more useful than a rating based on some arbitrary set of obstacles as it lets me know whether or not I can get through the trail - not whether or not I can achieve someone's idea of what the trail should be (which changes as people cut new paths and add new obstacles to trails like what has happened in Lower Terminator). Are we to consider the two new (rather extreme) obstacles at the end of Lower Terminator to be part of the trail for rating purposes? Who makes this call?

Trail ratings should not be concerned with things like people fooling themselves into thinking they have done something they haven't. They should be about helping people better match their skills and their rigs to the trails in order to protect both people's rigs and the trails themselves.

[EDIT: In hidnsight, I think I should have said that trails used to be rated based on the highest difficulty level of all required obstacles. Regardless, my point was that it's based on non-bypassible obstacles - not on someone's idea of which obstacles you need to run in order to pat yourself on the back.]

mingoglia
07-12-2006, 01:31 PM
I believe trails used to be rated based on the lowest difficulty level of all required obstacles. And this, to me, is more useful than a rating based on some arbitrary set of obstacles as it lets me know whether or not I can get through the trail - not whether or not I can achieve someone's idea of what the trail should be (which changes as people cut new paths and add new obstacles to trails like what has happened in Lower Terminator). Are we to consider the two new (rather extreme) obstacles at the end of Lower Terminator to be part of the trail for rating purposes? Who makes this call?

Trail ratings should not be concerned with things like people fooling themselves into thinking they have done something they haven't. They should be about helping people better match their skills and their rigs to the trails in order to protect both people's rigs and the trails themselves.

I 100% agree with Roger. I believe the trail rating should be based on the required obstacles to get through the trail and shouldn't really reflect any optional obstacles. The reasoning behind this is I believe these ratings should be used as a guidline for those that are not "in the know" in determining if they can traverse the trail without exceeding their abilities (or their rig). They can then at their discretion decide if they want to tackle a particular optional obstacle. Chances are the folks that are searching out these hidden gems of obstacles probably don't need the trail rating system. Obviously if you know the trail, you don't need a trail system to determine if you can run something you've already run a dozen times...

I will make another point and somewhat reiterate what Roger said. It seems that many people are more concerned with the notoriety that's artifically created due to the trail rating. I think this goes both ways. A trail one person considers hugely difficult is a cake walk for someone else. I think there's at least two types of wheelers. There's wheelers that know the line, and there's wheelers that can see a line. I think this is very important. If you run the same trail over and over and over again you may know the line as you've seen others do it many many times. At this point all you have to worry about is trying to drive this line. In addition if you fall off the line, you've probably experienced this or seen others experience this and you know the alternate line. In contrast there's those that I consider superior wheelers that can scout a trail and invision exactly what the rig is going to do and map out a line in their mind. I truly believe you could take amateur wheeler and run them through highway to hell dozens and dozens of times to the point that that's the only trail they've really ever run. This person could probably even lead a trip through there and be considered a "senior" type wheeler...this individual could then one day hit Lower Terminator and get hung up on everything. This person may very well consider LT a much more difficult trail than H2H as he's been brainwashed in knowing what the line was on H2H and now that he's on a new trail he's lost.

One pet peeve of mine is Crown King. With the wide range of vehicle and driver capabilities over the past 10 years I believe it's difficult to assign trails in a 5 point system. I've personally done the Crown King run 60-70 times over the past 12 years (and not one way, I've always made the trip back from CK to Pleasant the same way I came and not the dirt road to I-17). I'm bold enough to say I've probably run that trail more than anyone in this forum. As such I wouldn't think twice in taking my Navigator up that trail assuming I could borrow some more suitable tires from someone (the low profile Michelin Pilots aren't exactly ideal for any trail). In fact I was just telling my wife last night that in the winter I'd like to take her and the kids up there (possibly in the Navigaor). I also wouldn't hesitate to take any relatively high profile 2wd rig up that trail. With an exception to one area I'd say a 4wd car such a Subaru could make it. You see, I know the line. I know what works and what doesn't. I think if I were to rate that trail it would be hard for me to come up with an unbiased rating because the trail literally bores me. In the last several years I run it for speed as this is the only thing that has an entertainment value for me...."1 hour 58 minutes.... 5 minutes faster than last time". Anyway, back on point. According to our rating system, Lower Terminator is in the same class as CK. If I remember correctly, CK on the new rating is only 1/2 a point lower than Lower Terminator. I think this is flawed...but then again perhaps those that are rating Lower Terminator have just run it so many times (like I have for CK) that it really is a easy trail. The person that really gets screwed here is the newer wheeler. The person that ran Crown King last week and thought it was challenging and all of a sudden this weekend he signs up for a Lower Terminator run as he sees this as the next step after conquering CK...this person unfortunately is in for a rude awakening.

Mike

RokNRich
07-12-2006, 01:55 PM
I've yet to be on a Crown King run where there wasn't some carnage.
:D :cool: :eek: :D

DFRacing
07-12-2006, 02:21 PM
If CK & Terminator have close to the same rating your on crack. I have driven my full size Ford F250 on the CK run, but you will never see it on Terminator. Why because Terminators would demolish the Ford.
This rating thing, you need to listen to other wheelers that have done the trails you are interested in and go from there. This rating system is not even close and all it does is get the inexperienced people in over thier heads.

jeff krause
07-12-2006, 02:31 PM
This rating thing, you need to listen to other wheelers that have done the trails you are interested in and go from there. This rating system is not even close and all it does is get the inexperienced people in over thier heads.

I could not agree with this more.... I am FAR FROM an experienced 'wheeler'. The point system to me is irrevelant. I trust a couple of people (Tom Jacobson) being one to let me know if my rig has a chance on a trail or Obsticial (spelling but who cares). I know what the rig will do, for the most part.. I know I can run Elvis / Jackhandle , willow springs (to the rock garden) BUT I'm not bringing it onto H2H / AA / Terms....

Jeff

mingoglia
07-12-2006, 03:04 PM
If CK & Terminator have close to the same rating your on crack. I have driven my full size Ford F250 on the CK run, but you will never see it on Terminator. Why because Terminators would demolish the Ford.
This rating thing, you need to listen to other wheelers that have done the trails you are interested in and go from there. This rating system is not even close and all it does is get the inexperienced people in over thier heads.

I hope I articulated my point correctly as this was the point I was trying to make. The trail rating for CK is a half point away from Terminator according to our existing points system.... and I too thought this is insane which is why I used it as an example as to why this point system is flawed. I'd take my Navigator on CK without the thought of body damage even crossing my mind.... I most certainly wouldn't bring any stock vehicle on LT and there's a chance of body damage even on midly modified rigs.

Barry@4Wheeler's Supply
07-12-2006, 03:24 PM
Ratings, like Bo Derek in "10" make since. Trail rating for four wheeling are at best almost close but not in all cases. I say do away with the ratings completely. Have everyone go out and break their junk so they don't want to wheel anymore or upgrade the junk so they can do the trail. Thus we eliminate those that do not belong on the trail anyways. Before ratings where there people who chose to push their limits and the rigs limits learned what worked and what didn't. When the first run on upper terminator took place we had about 10 rigs, all with lockers front and rear tire size 33" and it took us 10 hours. The trails have changed significantly and it would take a bit of work to change the ratings as people build by passes on trails that did not have them or winch rocks down that were obsticals, or create new obstical etc. etc. The best bet is to trust your trip leader or walk the trail start to end to determine if you want to poke your nose in it. This just makes since.

xFallen
07-12-2006, 04:35 PM
It appears people are getting too hung up on numbers. I suggest reading or re-reading the trail rating descriptions that go along with the numbers. Then read the trail descriptions with the rating in mind. The numbers are a general shorthand for the description. That's all. And they do have meaning out of the context of a trail description except as a general ballpark.

This isn't an entirely arbitrary rating linear scale system based on what feels right at the time or who is behind the wheel or the capability of the rig. It also is not precise due to a number of variations such as driver skill and experience among other things. That's why ratings are not sufficient by themselves and a description or fore knowledge from someone else who has done the trail is just as important. Again, one reason why GPS coords are not posted.

Bad Medicine is a 4.0 trail. And yes, Lower Terminator is still a 3.5. But no, if you can do Lower easily that doesn't necessarily mean BM will be just .5 harder, whatever .5 harder means. You see there is no deifnition for .5 harder. There is a definition for 3.5 and there is a definition for 4.0 and they are different. When combined with a specific trail description a decision can be made as to whether or not one is equipped to run it.

The trail ratings, as defined in the rating descriptions, state they are not intended to be absolute for these very reasons and the guidelines are fairly clear with a little bit of room for wiggle or variation.

There are intended obstacles and optional obstacles and trails do indeed change as people cut bypasses that don't belong there, or the obstacles wear or evolve for natural reasons or just plain use. The byapsses should not affect the trail rating. They will affect one's choice as to whether to tackle the trail or not. I suppose the trail rating should say "intended obstacles".

So, on Predator up the middle is more difficult than either side. Either side is the bypass for the main obstacle up the middle. The bypasses are somewhat simple if you are properly equipped for the trail. If you are not properly equipped they will be difficult. That's the way the ratings work. I know for a fact the properly equipped vehicle/driver combination can make the main center obstacle.

I guess we could argue about ratings it but something more productive would be to propose a rating scheme designed for everyone that everyone could embrace. To that, I say, good luck because if it existed I am sure we'd be using it. But, I would encourage thoughtful suggestions dmeonstrably superior to the current scheme.

Someone once said it like this. Are you on the trail to survive it or to run it? If you are there to survive it, then by all means bring anything you want to any trail you want. If you have enough patience, ingenuity or just plain stubborness and do not care what happens to your vehicle or how long it takes and willingness to stack and hoist and winch and push and pull and shove, you will eventually get through one way or the other.

If one wishes to drive it then you will have some minimum level of equipment and experience and knowledge in a combiantion appropriate for the ratingin and the trail description. The combination of those items is part of being equipped for the trail.

I don't see why all the fuss, frankly.

Just keep this in mind: There are reasons the really good trails are and probably will remain for as long as possible, closely held secrets. Part of it is the demonstrated lack or respect for the ratings, the descriptions and the trails themselves. These are observations of the way it works, not rules I made up.


Barry

xFallen
07-12-2006, 04:38 PM
Ratings, like Bo Derek in "10" make since. Trail rating for four wheeling are at best almost close but not in all cases. I say do away with the ratings completely. Have everyone go out and break their junk so they don't want to wheel anymore or upgrade the junk so they can do the trail. Thus we eliminate those that do not belong on the trail anyways. Before ratings where there people who chose to push their limits and the rigs limits learned what worked and what didn't. When the first run on upper terminator took place we had about 10 rigs, all with lockers front and rear tire size 33" and it took us 10 hours. The trails have changed significantly and it would take a bit of work to change the ratings as people build by passes on trails that did not have them or winch rocks down that were obsticals, or create new obstical etc. etc. The best bet is to trust your trip leader or walk the trail start to end to determine if you want to poke your nose in it. This just makes since.


Now that's funny...I deleted the part of my message that said do away with ratings altogether and just go for it, let nature sort out the mess.


Barry

xFallen
07-12-2006, 04:41 PM
I hope I articulated my point correctly as this was the point I was trying to make. The trail rating for CK is a half point away from Terminator according to our existing points system.... and I too thought this is insane which is why I used it as an example as to why this point system is flawed. I'd take my Navigator on CK without the thought of body damage even crossing my mind.... I most certainly wouldn't bring any stock vehicle on LT and there's a chance of body damage even on midly modified rigs.


Who said it was half?

one half of x^2 does not equal (.5x)^2

If it does then I have some stock to slel you...

Again, people are too hung up on numbers. Look at the description of the ratings, apply those to the trail. Easy.


Barry

mtg1993
07-12-2006, 04:52 PM
Wow what a mess.....I just want to wheel!!!!!

mingoglia
07-12-2006, 04:53 PM
Who said it was half?

one half of x^2 does not equal (.5x)^2

If it does then I have some stock to slel you...

Again, people are too hung up on numbers. Look at the description of the ratings, apply those to the trail. Easy.


Barry

OK Barry, my lack of sleep and it being a long day must have gotten to me because your post just gave me a headache thinking about it. I was pointing out that LT is 3.5 and CK is (supposedly) 3.0....so a .5 difference. I believe CK is a good tranition from Schnebly Hill Rd in Sedona but believe the jump to LT is a bit too great....

mingoglia
07-12-2006, 04:53 PM
Wow what a mess.....I just want to wheel!!!!!

It's too hot to wheel.....let's argue. :p Besides, I can't get my post count up by wheelin'. Duh.

mtg1993
07-12-2006, 05:00 PM
It's too hot to wheel.....let's argue. :p Besides, I can't get my post count up by wheelin'. Duh.
No but you would be able to understand the difference in a trail rating if you went out:D

Tom Jacobson
07-12-2006, 05:55 PM
"If one wishes to drive it then you will have some minimum level of equipment and experience and knowledge in a combiantion appropriate for the ratingin and the trail description. The combination of those items is part of being equipped for the trail."

Extremely well put, Barry.

Krause - the credit you give me is appreciated, but I not sure if deserved. I'm passing along my opinion of your capabilities based on the same things I went through as I built my Jeep up and went on harder and harder trails. I did the same thing...watch, LISTEN and learn from others with more experience. I feel much better swallowing my pride and maybe taking a bit of ribbing if I decide to bypass something than I would if I did something stupid and broke.

The ratings are acceptable as is. They'll never be perfect. As Barry said, the "rating" is only part of the information anyway. If you run 3 -3.5's all the time with ease, then ask about a couple 4.0's you have in mind to run. Someone is sure to know you, your rig and your capabilities...and give you an honest answer about your chances.

Just be willing to swallow the pride and LISTEN if the answer isn't quite what you want to hear.

Time to go mtn biking. Anyone know if it's hot out today? ;-)

Tom

Jdemonto
07-12-2006, 08:24 PM
Maybe for some but certainly not for all. You're either committed or not. COmmitted means you're going to tackle the obstacles and assume the risks of not making it. There are simply situations where scraping is unavoidable or times where you end up on the wrong end of the risk equation. You'll find that out if or when you take on the more challenging trails and negotiate the obstacles that are on those trails, or even take the ovbstacles on the trails you run now. Plus, the unexpected will eventually occur.

As to careful, who knows. Not sure I've heard of many people spending 3 hours on ower Terminator unless they were broken down, so you may well be more careful. Mind you I can't think of any body damage I have personally done on that trail except for maybe scraping a tree branch somewhere. I am sure people have though. That particular trail should take maybe about 30 minutes and that's doing all the normal obstacles. I say normal because there are some toward the end that are effectively comp level.


Barry


That was the first time i've spent that kind of time there????? We had a flat tire then under equiped rigs trying terminator, theres the 3 hrs right there. I have run it in 45-60 minutes, ya i take my time..I also don't break sh@#!!!! Again if I built some super rock rig with cash that I don't drive everyday..I would have total disreguard for the rig, the trail and anyone in my way!!!! I'm with you on the rock stacking...don't understand it...they should at least put the rocks back!!!

Jdemonto
07-12-2006, 08:44 PM
Oh ya..my .02 on trail ratings..they change!! I ran CK last august before the fun run and it was at least a solid 3.5-4.0 in spots, after that run they fixed or stacked the trail, then again I ran this trail in october 2003, full of slimy mud and it was a tough one with lockers!!!! Now its a 2.5 since its just a dirt road with obsticles!!! I think the ratings on this site are too low..check the wells book again to get back to reality ratings.

scully
07-12-2006, 09:16 PM
That was the first time i've spent that kind of time there????? We had a flat tire then under equiped rigs trying terminator, theres the 3 hrs right there. I have run it in 45-60 minutes, ya i take my time..I also don't break sh@#!!!! Again if I built some super rock rig with cash that I don't drive everyday..I would have total disreguard for the rig, the trail and anyone in my way!!!! I'm with you on the rock stacking...don't understand it...they should at least put the rocks back!!!

Jason, just for clarification, who were the under equiped rigs?

Jdemonto
07-12-2006, 10:15 PM
Jason, just for clarification, who were the under equiped rigs?

Not to be a smart a#%, I wasn't the reason why the trip took 3 hrs, like everyone keeps saying. I might be slow and carefull, but i'm not that carefull and slow!!!

Jason

Renob
07-12-2006, 10:20 PM
Not to be a smart a#%, I wasn't the reason why the trip took 3 hrs, like everyone keeps saying. I might be slow and carefull, but i'm not that carefull and slow!!!

JasonWell, that clears that up. Let's all move on and go wheeling, shall we.

Jdemonto
07-12-2006, 10:30 PM
Hey, you forgot the:D

Renob
07-12-2006, 10:32 PM
Hey, you forgot the:DNo I didn't, I only use the :D if I'm joking.

Jdemonto
07-12-2006, 10:38 PM
No I didn't, I only use the :D if I'm joking.

Thats why I like you, you always have a comeback!!!;) ;) ;)

Renob
07-12-2006, 10:43 PM
Thats why I like youCareful, that may not be a popular position to take on this board. Remember, you still have Jeeps to sell.

scully
07-12-2006, 10:45 PM
Careful, that may not be a popular position to take on this board. Remember, you still have Jeeps to sell.

:D

Jdemonto
07-12-2006, 10:47 PM
Please renob..You know I like Jeeps way more than you!!!!:o :o :o

Renob
07-12-2006, 11:01 PM
Please renob..You know I like Jeeps way more than you!!!!:o :o :ohttp://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/traurig/sad-smiley-019.gifSay it isn't so, little buddy.

DesertX04
07-13-2006, 12:16 AM
Jason, just for clarification, who were the under equiped rigs?
I was kinda wondering that myself.

After the 3 hour tour, Daryl let me tag along for Predator. Almost finished too quickly. Stopped only once. I just followed his lines and we just kept cruisin. Daryl's experience made that trail seem like a 2.5? ;) This thread is about trail ratings, right? :D

fatbob309
07-13-2006, 12:39 AM
Don't worry... hes just not happy that people think he drives like a blue hair on the trail.

Wind_Danzer
07-13-2006, 01:13 AM
Just to throw my few pennies in here too. I firmly believe night runs will always be more difficult then day runs no matter what the trail and it's rating unless you have it memorized.

Besides changes from day to day due to weather or stacking ratings always will change.

Renob
07-13-2006, 06:09 AM
I firmly believe night runs will always be more difficult then day runsI disagree. The obstacles are the same, day or night.

DesertRat
07-13-2006, 08:19 AM
http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/traurig/sad-smiley-019.gifSay it isn't so, little buddy.

Hey you guys want to get a room or something :eek:

:D <= joking

xFallen
07-13-2006, 11:12 AM
Oh ya..my .02 on trail ratings..they change!! I ran CK last august before the fun run and it was at least a solid 3.5-4.0 in spots, after that run they fixed or stacked the trail, then again I ran this trail in october 2003, full of slimy mud and it was a tough one with lockers!!!! Now its a 2.5 since its just a dirt road with obsticles!!! I think the ratings on this site are too low..check the wells book again to get back to reality ratings.

So, you are trying to tell the rest of us that the back road to Crown King, a road that is regularly driven by 2WD pickup trucks, fits these descriptions? I don't know anyone who could buy off on that. You may think it is difficult, but Mike I. will show you the run in his Navigator, and I absolutely believe. You may not be ablt ot do it in the Navigator, but that's not a trail rating issue. Why is this such a difficult concept? You need to develop your skills. You do this by listening and watching others with experience.

Rating 3.5 Hard Trail
Description Some rocky sections, bypasses at most major obstacles. Some body damage possible. Rocker panel and rear quarter panel protection helpful.
Vehicle and Equipment Upgraded bumpers (Useable as a hi-lift point), rocker panel skids, skid plates, Hi-Lift, 32" Tires, Rear locker
Example Judgement Day, Upper Terminator, Lower Terminator, Predator, Rocker Panel Pass, Martinez Canyon (not Cabin), FR42 (after heavy rainfall or when it is wet)

Rating 4 Moderate Rocky Trail
Description Frequent ledges, crevices, large boulders, steep inclines and off camber situations. Body and or tire damage likely. Spotters may be needed for some obstacles. Low tire pressure required, good chance of loosing a bead. Possible component breakages.
Vehicle and Equipment Front locker 35" tires Upgraded axles Lower ring & pinions, transfer case gear reduction (w/ manual transmission), winch, recommend spare axles, recommend spare steering parts
Example Axle Alley, Bad Medicine, Highway to Hell, Lower Woodpecker, Lost World, Payeatt Draw, Squeeze Rock, Upper Firebird

Do whatever trails you wish, they may be difficult to you or they may not, makes zero differnece to anyone else. it seems you need to assign some bigger number to the rating to justify this difficulty, that's fine, go for it. Understand that is about egos not about trail ratings.

Read the descriptions, apply the description to the trail and vice versa. Simple.

Clearly some have not taken the time to do this.

If the collective wants the descriptions changed a bit, that can happen with due consideration. Again, the scale may not be linear. There is no meaning to .5 harder.

As to trail ratings changing, Over time, yes. But changes due to common weather conditions or known flooding or avalanche possibility is part of the description and the cautions for any trail. One of the roads (not trail, road) that crosses the Agua Fria in the Table Mesa area can become impassbale at certain times of the year although not every year. Does that mean the road is a 5.0? Of course not, no more than the paved street that runs through any number of washes that become impassable when flooded.


Barry

mingoglia
07-13-2006, 11:42 AM
That's it.... on the run at the end of August I'm going to rent a Segway and complete the run. Can anyone carry some spare batteries for me? It'll be hot, but I'm a selfless guy and am only looking to educate.

RokNRich
07-13-2006, 11:44 AM
Mike, no bypasses ?
:)

mingoglia
07-13-2006, 11:47 AM
Mike, no bypasses ?
:)

No, but I may need a winch up one section. Other than that, we're golden.

Wind_Danzer
07-13-2006, 12:34 PM
I disagree. The obstacles are the same, day or night.

True but making sure you are on line by centimeters to make said obstacles is more difficult without a lot of light. Everyone touts rock lights to make the night runs "easier".

Why is that if the obstacles are the same? It's to make sure you are on the proper lines to make the obstacles.

Jdemonto
07-13-2006, 01:11 PM
True but making sure you are on line by centimeters to make said obstacles is more difficult without a lot of light. Everyone touts rock lights to make the night runs "easier".

Why is that if the obstacles are the same? It's to make sure you are on the proper lines to make the obstacles.

It seems that the trailrating are a matter of opinion??? WHo started the rating system, maybe we should ask them!!!

Renob
07-13-2006, 01:33 PM
True but making sure you are on line by centimeters to make said obstacles is more difficult without a lot of light. Everyone touts rock lights to make the night runs "easier".

Why is that if the obstacles are the same? It's to make sure you are on the proper lines to make the obstacles.Ambient light or focused light is still illumination. Run one at night with no lights and then I may agree with you.

FrenchChili
07-13-2006, 01:47 PM
Ambient light or focused light is still illumination. Run one at night with no lights and then I may agree with you.

candles :D

I think the trail rating on the original site and in Charles A. Well's book are excellent...why deviate?

VIVIsectI
07-13-2006, 02:13 PM
So what was the raiting for upper Ajax? Did anyone come to a conclusion on that?

Renob
07-13-2006, 03:13 PM
candlesNot until the fire season is over.

DesertRat
07-13-2006, 03:16 PM
So what was the raiting for upper Ajax? Did anyone come to a conclusion on that?

From reading this post…
I think anywhere between a 1 and 5….. :D

SHNIPE
07-14-2006, 09:20 AM
^^ hahah thats just funny :D

xFallen
07-14-2006, 10:10 PM
candles :D

I think the trail rating on the original site and in Charles A. Well's book are excellent...why deviate?

Face it: the Wells book is for tourists. Not knocking it, just saying that's what it is. Being in a book is a kiss of death for a trail.

The old site ratings are out to lunch in many cases and in some cases dead on.

Again, people, this is easy. Read the rating scheme. Apply scheme to trail. Wheel according to desired challenge, skill and vehicle equipment. Be honest about each and enjoy. Done. No worries.


Barry

buttman
07-15-2006, 12:11 AM
I think we should all go night run matrix:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: Barry leads:D :D :D :D :D See..... I used plenty of faces...... I think we should have a thread on what all the faces mean.

FrenchChili
07-15-2006, 01:27 AM
:eek: :barryroll: :shnipeflickoff: :demontoslowpoke: :assmanstinks: :D

DFRacing
07-15-2006, 08:55 AM
Here is a trail rating that I feel works well. It is a 1-10 rating though.
Read through, then decide what trails should be rated what. And be honest;)

Upper Ajax, would be a 5 max. ith this rating system



0 2WD: A class zero trail is any road on which the average family car can be driven. This includes all Freeways, Highways, Byways, County Roads, Grated Dirt Roads, Semi-Annually Maintained Roads, etc...

1 2WD/Easy 4WD: A Class One trail requires the additional ground clearance offered by 2WD and 4WD Sport Utility Vehicles (SUV). These trails feature obstacles that are easy to navigate. In optimum weather conditions, these trails may not require the continual use of four-wheel drive (4WD). Vehicles equipped with a rear locker or limited slip will likely not need 4WD even under adverse conditions.

2 Entry Level 4WD: A Class Two trail requires 4WD, however, a full locker under optimal weather conditions may prevent the need (in some vehicles) for 4WD. Low range may be necessary and off-road (agressive tread) tires are recomended. Skid plates to protect sensitive items (i.e. Engine and Transmission Oil pans, Transfer Cases, Rocker Panels, etc..) are recommended; highly recommended if vehicle is not lifted (i.e. stock suspension). These trails feature a wide variety of challenges: Potholes, minor washouts, soccer ball size rocks, and mud holes, etc.

3 Moderate 4WD: A Class Three trail requires Low Range 4WD. Although passable by a stock 4WD vehicle, a Limited Slip differential (Front or Rear) and lift is highly recommended, if not lifted, then skid plates are required to prevent damage to sensitive items. Aggressive off-road tires and lower air pressure is recommended. These trails feature a variety of more difficult challenges: loose rocks, large potholes, steep inclines, larger rocks,etc. Moderate experience and driving skill advised. Likely paint damage, possible rocker-panel damage.

4 Challenging 4WD: A Class Four trail requires Low Range 4WD, off-road tires, lift, at least one traction device, (lockers or LSD with increased articulation), and skid plates are required. At least one full locker, and larger tires are highly recommended. These trails require above average Off-Road driving skills. High-Lift jacks and winches may also be helpful. There will likely be paint damage and possible vehicle body and/or mechanical damage. These trails feature loose steep hill climbs, 24" ledges and rocks. Rollovers, while not common are possible.

5 Difficult 4WD/Easy Rock Crawling: A Class Five trail is an entry level Rock Crawling trail. Traction Devices (Lockers or Limited Slip) are required in both differentials. 31" Tires, Skid Plates and Lift are required. Lower gears, 32"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, etc are highly recommended. These trails traverse very rugged terrain featuring 30" ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers, while not common are possible; correct tire placement becomes more important. Winches may also be helpful.

6 Mild Rock Crawling: A Class Six trail is a Mild Rock Crawling trail. Traction Devices (Lockers or Limited Slip) are required in both differentials, at least one full Locker. 32" Tires, Skid Plates and Lift are required. Lower gears, Upgraded Drive Train Components, 33"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, etc are highly recommended. These trails traverse very rugged terrain featuring 36" ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers, while not common become increasingly possible. Correct tire placement becomes increasingly important to avoid rollovers, mechanical damage and body damage. Bring spare parts such as axles, u-joints and driveshafts. Winches may also be helpful.

7 Moderate Rock Crawling: A Class Seven trail is a Moderate Rock Crawling trail. Full Lockers are required in both differentials. 35" Tires, Skid Plates, Lower gears, Upgraded Drive Train Components and Lift are required. 35"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, and Winches are highly recommended. These trails traverse very rugged terrain featuring 42" ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers are more likely, especially when pushing a "bad line". Correct tire placement becomes critical in avoiding rollovers, mechanical damage and body damage. Bring spare parts such as axles, u-joints and driveshafts.

8 Difficult Rock Crawling: A Class Eight trail is a Difficult Rock Crawling trail. Full Lockers are required in both differentials. 35" Tires, Skid Plates, Lower gears, Upgraded Drive Train Components, Winches and Lift are required. 37"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, and on board welder are highly recommended. These trails traverse extremely rugged terrain featuring 48" ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers are more common. Use of a Winch and Correct tire placement becomes critical in avoiding rollovers, mechanical damage and body damage. Bring spare parts such as axles, u-joints and driveshafts.

9 Extreme Rock Crawling: Class Nine trails are for the Extreme Rock Crawler in a Highly Modified vehicle only. Full Lockers are required in both differentials. 37" Tires, Skid Plates, Lower gears, Upgraded Drive Train Components, Winches and Lift are required. 38"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, and on board welder are highly recommended. These trails traverse extremely rugged terrain featuring Jeep size ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers are increasingly common. Use of a Winch and Correct tire placement becomes critical in avoiding rollovers, mechanical damage and body damage. Paint damage is virtually guaranteed, body and/or mechanical damage is very likely. Certain obstacles may not be passable without the use of a winch. Bring spare parts such as axles, u-joints and driveshafts.

10 Impassable trail: Class Ten trails are impassable, even the Extreme Rock Crawler in a Highly Modified vehicle will require the use of a winch. Full Lockers are required in both differentials. 37" Tires, Skid Plates, Lower gears, Upgraded Drive Train Components, Winches and Lift are required. 38"+ tires, high lift jacks, body armor, and on board welder are highly recommended. These trails traverse impassable terrain featuring house size ledges, pot holes and rocks. Rollovers are virtually guaranteed. Use of a Winch and Correct tire placement becomes critical in completing the obstacle. Paint damage is virtually guaranteed, body and/or mechanical damage is extremely likely. Certain obstacles will require the use of a winch. Bring spare parts such as axles, u-joints and driveshafts.

buttman
07-15-2006, 03:56 PM
:eek: :barryroll: :shnipeflickoff: :demontoslowpoke: :assmanstinks: :D




Hey! :mad: I shower once a week :eek: ...whether I need it or not.:p