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AZXJ
04-28-2006, 01:01 AM
OFF-ROAD NEWS

Off-Roaders Lose Round In Fight to Restore Access to California Dunes

In a blow to Southern California off-roaders, a federal judge struck down a plan by the U.S. Bureau of Land Management (BLM) to allow off-roading on large sections of the Imperial Sand Dunes Recreation Area that were originally closed in 2000. The court ruled that the BLM violated the Endangered Species Act and other federal laws in proposing to reopen approximately 49,000 acres in four areas of the desert dunes to dune buggies and other all-terrain vehicles. In its ruling, the court stated that BLM relied on a flawed report from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service which concurred that the dunes could be reopened without jeopardizing the existence of the Peirsons Milk-Vetch, an abundant desert plant which was placed on the endangered species list in 1998. The court ordered all parties to file briefs by March 28 outlining potential uses for the closed portions of the dunes. While the SAN supports a balanced approach between land access and conservation, it is disappointed that the court did not accord more deference to the federal agencies that are best suited to determine which areas of the dunes should be open for public access.

mingoglia
04-28-2006, 07:13 AM
It's insane that the Peirson?s Milk-Vetch is even on the endangered species act. That plant is abundant at the dunes even in the open area. It's thrived in the open area. These guys don't seem to realize that most of us have very lightweight aluminum blue label wheels and very very thin tires. I personally have never seen someone that didn't do everything in their power to avoid running over any vegetation due to the tires not being able to handle it.

Mike

DsrtJeeper
04-28-2006, 07:34 AM
It's insane that the Peirson?s Milk-Vetch is even on the endangered species act. That plant is abundant at the dunes even in the open area. It's thrived in the open area. These guys don't seem to realize that most of us have very lightweight aluminum blue label wheels and very very thin tires. I personally have never seen someone that didn't do everything in their power to avoid running over any vegetation due to the tires not being able to handle it.

Mike

Bingo Mike!!! Those plant stalks can hole a lightened "Hauler" paddle tire in a heartbeat. What fails to be mentioned repeatedly is that the area farmers have been trying to kill this weed off for years. Yes; it's a weed. I really thought the riders had this one beat. I wonder if they worried about such things when Model T's were traversing the old "Board Road" ?

My1stJeep
04-28-2006, 11:33 AM
The plank road is quite a site to see, wonder what they will do if the plants start growing in or through the wood and destroy what is left of it? Will they then say we need to remove it to preserve what little is left of the old plank road?

It is a shame this round was lost, but I am guessing the fight is not over and is soon to get even more heated. The plant, sorry weed has thrived for many years prior to this closure and the closure has not increased the amount of vegetation one bit. Nor has it decreased the amount in open areas. Just goes to show how misguided people have been for years following the suggestions and mandates of the green organizations.

0IIII0
04-28-2006, 01:22 PM
Yes; it's a weed.

Actually, it is a member of the "pea-family"...and bears fruit containing small tiny black seeds.

Astragalus magdalenae var. peirsonii
Family: Fabaceae
Group: Flowering Plants

Weed, n: a plant that is not valued where it is growing and is usually of vigorous growth; especially : one that tends to overgrow or choke out more desirable plants. -websters

The term "weed" is subjective, having less to do with the biology and more to do with the human "value".

The plant in quetion here is indeginous to this area, therefore it cannot be an invasive species.

Indeed, one could consider it a "weed" if it was "not wanted" as is clearly the case with the OHV community.

Thanks.

FrenchChili
04-28-2006, 01:33 PM
Actually, it is a member of the "pea-family"...and bears fruit containing small tiny black seeds.

Astragalus magdalenae var. peirsonii
Family: Fabaceae
Group: Flowering Plants

Weed, n: a plant that is not valued where it is growing and is usually of vigorous growth; especially : one that tends to overgrow or choke out more desirable plants. -websters

The term "weed" is subjective, having less to do with the biology and more to do with the human "value".

The plant in quetion here is indeginous to this area, therefore it cannot be an invasive species.

Indeed, one could consider it a "weed" if it was "not wanted" as is clearly the case with the OHV community.

Thanks.


good to know

DsrtJeeper
04-28-2006, 01:42 PM
Actually, it is a member of the "pea-family"...and bears fruit containing small tiny black seeds.

Astragalus magdalenae var. peirsonii
Family: Fabaceae
Group: Flowering Plants

Weed, n: a plant that is not valued where it is growing and is usually of vigorous growth; especially : one that tends to overgrow or choke out more desirable plants. -websters

The term "weed" is subjective, having less to do with the biology and more to do with the human "value".

The plant in quetion here is indeginous to this area, therefore it cannot be an invasive species.

Indeed, one could consider it a "weed" if it was "not wanted" as is clearly the case with the OHV community.

Thanks.

Yet another rationale from the Sierra Club...:rolleyes: You must have wore out your search button on that brain storm.

mingoglia
04-28-2006, 03:20 PM
Still, regardless of it's classification. Anyone that frequents that area knows that that "plant" is in great abundance. I've also seen the flyover pictures and it's amazing how much that "plant" is thriving in the open areas. It appears to be thriving more in the open areas than in the closed areas.

I've spent a lot of time in the meetings in California regarding this issue. I've seen both sides. Yes, I'm biased though so take it for what it's worth. I will maintain that in the 10 years I've been going to that area I have yet to see anyone at anytime going through any vegetation at all. I'm sure it does happen every now and then, but I doubt it happens enough to make any difference at all. The closest thing to affecting any plant at all is the people that temporarily tie on some caution tape to a bush in camp to mark their campsite.

Mike

My1stJeep
04-28-2006, 03:30 PM
John,


Actually, it is a member of the "pea-family"...and bears fruit containing small tiny black seeds.

Astragalus magdalenae var. peirsonii
Family: Fabaceae
Group: Flowering Plants

Weed, n: a plant that is not valued where it is growing and is usually of vigorous growth; especially : one that tends to overgrow or choke out more desirable plants. -websters

The term "weed" is subjective, having less to do with the biology and more to do with the human "value".

The plant in quetion here is indeginous to this area, therefore it cannot be an invasive species.

Indeed, one could consider it a "weed" if it was "not wanted" as is clearly the case with the OHV community.

Thanks.


Just a point of clarification, that is a much updated definition of the weed.

Until the OHV community started to fight this action to close the dunes it was classified as the Milk Vetch Weed. The Greenies knowing the negative conotation the term weed has went to court and did what they had to in order for it to be renamed the Milk Vetch Plant.

So I do not appreciate your cander when applying that the OHV community does not want the plant is the reason we refer to it as a weed. We are simply referring to it for what it is, what is was and the only reason it changed was due to the greenies wanting an image change for the plant.

When you say we do our homework, before laying blame on the OHV users you may also want to do your homework.

mingoglia
04-28-2006, 03:53 PM
John,




Just a point of clarification, that is a much updated definition of the weed.

Until the OHV community started to fight this action to close the dunes it was classified as the Milk Vetch Weed. The Greenies knowing the negative conotation the term weed has went to court and did what they had to in order for it to be renamed the Milk Vetch Plant.

So I do not appreciate your cander when applying that the OHV community does not want the plant is the reason we refer to it as a weed. We are simply referring to it for what it is, what is was and the only reason it changed was due to the greenies wanting an image change for the plant.

When you say we do our homework, before laying blame on the OHV users you may also want to do your homework.

You know, I kinda remember it actually being a weed but wasn't sure. Regardless, my point was it will continue to thrive out there regardless of the OHV community. OHV users at the dunes stay clear of anything other than sand at the dunes.

Mike

mingoglia
04-28-2006, 03:59 PM
I thought the left wingers definition of a weed is something you hang upside down for a few days to dry out in preparation of sparking up a 'J'? Is that too much of a stereotype? ;)

Mike

My1stJeep
04-28-2006, 04:10 PM
Uhmm...I don't really care what the plant was called before either. I was pointing out the definition of "weed".

So your point, I assume it this...

Enviros don't like the name "weed" because they value the plant.

OHV/Farmers don't like it because it is a nuisance to their desires.

Sounds like everyone is acknowledging the definition quite well to me.

Thanks.

Figures you would not care. I think it has more to do with not understanding.

No the enviros don't like the name Weed as it was not getting them any sympathy. As you pointed out, no body wants a weed, so people were not seeing the benefits of the weed, thus no backing from Joe Public. Is there a benefit to the weed in question, you bet.

Does the weed hinder OHV? Only when the ecoterrorists got involved. The plant has been there for generations upon generations of wheelers. It is not any closer to be endangered now then it was back then. The closed areas have done nothing to make the plant thrive, even though the Eco's would like you to think so and will say it all day long, the airial (spelling???) photos show otherwise. The closed areas are no more densly populated then before.

Why I bring it up is the (cause I read into your post) is that you imply that the OHV does not want the plant and therefore is callinig it a weed.

QUOTE: Indeed, one could consider it a "weed" if it was "not wanted" as is clearly the case with the OHV community.
END QUOTE

The OHV community calls it what it always has been, a weed. It was simply pointing out that you fell victum the the propoganda of the Eco's by them fighting to get the name changed. You place a higher value on it based on the name (plant vs weed), you can easily see that in your post, with the tone you wrote it with and by your taking the time to bring in the definition of the word weed.

As the OHV users here have said, you don't want to run over it with sand tires, they are not made like rock crawling tires, the plants and schrubs can be enough to pop a hole in the tires, and they are just as costly as our rock crawling tires are.

If it was something the famers had added or OHV as you seem to think, then why did the Center for Biological Diversity, the Seirra Club and other Eco's fight in court to get the weed name changed and reclassified? Because its official name was Weed.

Yes John you caught us, conspiracy theory going on here, we are lieing (like liberals) to make everyone think it is a weed. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the scientific name for this used to be weed and it was changed for the reasons already stated, by the groups stated.

My1stJeep
04-28-2006, 04:32 PM
How about a few facts or tid bits I could quickly find:

Did you know that Milkvetch kills cattle, horses and sheep by paralysis resulting in respiratory failure. Though reports are scanty, it should be assumed that the milkvetch toxin affects humans, also. The plant kills within 3-4 hours and there is no known antidote.

Here is what PRC Digest Called it ...concerns a purple-flowered, sand-lover called Peirson's milk-vetch. ... A noxious weed, "Pierson's milkvetch" or Astralagus magdalenae variety peirsonii has been ...

It benefitted the Eco's to change the name so that they could avoid issues getting people to back them to close the dunes.

0IIII0
04-28-2006, 05:12 PM
Figures you would not care. I think it has more to do with not understanding.

No the enviros don't like the name Weed as it was not getting them any sympathy. As you pointed out, no body wants a weed, so people were not seeing the benefits of the weed, thus no backing from Joe Public. Is there a benefit to the weed in question, you bet.

Does the weed hinder OHV? Only when the ecoterrorists got involved. The plant has been there for generations upon generations of wheelers. It is not any closer to be endangered now then it was back then. The closed areas have done nothing to make the plant thrive, even though the Eco's would like you to think so and will say it all day long, the airial (spelling???) photos show otherwise. The closed areas are no more densly populated then before.

Why I bring it up is the (cause I read into your post) is that you imply that the OHV does not want the plant and therefore is callinig it a weed.

QUOTE: Indeed, one could consider it a "weed" if it was "not wanted" as is clearly the case with the OHV community.
END QUOTE

The OHV community calls it what it always has been, a weed. It was simply pointing out that you fell victum the the propoganda of the Eco's by them fighting to get the name changed. You place a higher value on it based on the name (plant vs weed), you can easily see that in your post, with the tone you wrote it with and by your taking the time to bring in the definition of the word weed.

As the OHV users here have said, you don't want to run over it with sand tires, they are not made like rock crawling tires, the plants and schrubs can be enough to pop a hole in the tires, and they are just as costly as our rock crawling tires are.

If it was something the famers had added or OHV as you seem to think, then why did the Center for Biological Diversity, the Seirra Club and other Eco's fight in court to get the weed name changed and reclassified? Because its official name was Weed.

Yes John you caught us, conspiracy theory going on here, we are lieing (like liberals) to make everyone think it is a weed. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the scientific name for this used to be weed and it was changed for the reasons already stated, by the groups stated.


All of my info came off of Governement websites and the dictionary.

and

DsrtJeeper's comment "Yes, its a weed" was clearly meant to evoke a sense of "who cares" because of the conatation the term carries.

In response to your "it was called..." argument, I suggested that the term "weed" was added to the common name by locals because of it's undesirability (for whatever reasons)...That fits well with the dictionary definition. Does it not?

So...back off Chris...I just thought that DsrtJeepers "weed" argument and your "common name" argument were and still are WEAK.

DREDnot
04-29-2006, 12:48 AM
If you water it and it dies, Its a plant

If you pull it out by the roots, and it grows back, Its a weed
(My definition)


BTW did I just see that OIIIIIO has been banned?
If this is the case, Thanks:)

paparonbo
04-29-2006, 09:14 AM
BTW did I just see that OIIIIIO has been banned?
If this is the case, Thanks:)
I don't think thats the case. You can edit your title if you are a paying sponsor of the board. He changed it himself to garner attention.

Antman
04-29-2006, 10:29 AM
Yea...he got banned because he argued that "weed" is subjective...how lame.

Or was it the obvious xehophobic thread in the off-topic area???

Whoever runs this board needs to put a check on these moderators...Seems they are free to CENSOR anyone, then talk abotu freedom of [insert here]...

Such hypocrits.

This board is nothing but a political puppet of the republican party.

John did you expect us to be Democrats when they are against everything we are for? Their agenda is sooo against our ways of thinking my friend. Even saying that, I am a registered Republician only because there is nowhere else to go! Your problem John is your like a navy cook, you can't stand and watch a pot without stirring it.

DREDnot
04-29-2006, 12:15 PM
Who is trailmix? Cant find him or OIIIIO in the member list. Is it the same guy changing names after getting banned?

Navy cook....I liked that:)

My1stJeep
04-29-2006, 02:57 PM
OIIIIO

How can my argument be weak?
Fact: The given name to this by scientific measures called it a weed.
Fact: The enviro's got it changed based on the negativity of the given name calling it a weed.

How is my argument weak? My facts trump your opinion that the farmers and OHV call it this, it is using your favorite form of justification, facts based on those scientists who give plants their scientific names. DOH

Sorry, you are barking up the wrong tree on this one. My sole purpose is to inform you that it was not a name given by farmers of OHV as you suggest.

AZG23
04-30-2006, 08:40 AM
OIIIIO


How is my argument weak? My facts trump your opinion that the farmers and OHV call it this, it is using your favorite form of justification, facts based on those scientists who give plants their scientific names. DOH



In the boxing community...they call this a TKO...technical knock out..:)

In the online community...they call this a TKO...troll knock out...:D :eek: