Whoa...that was close

[jeepboy]

I was wondering why my steering kept getting looser and looser...
http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5287&stc=1&d=1144886760

Yeah this is the bolt that holds the drag link to the pitman arm
http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5286&stc=1&d=1144886760

Yeah the nut was VERY loose, and ready to fall off
Since Lock tight and a lock washer werent enough, time to put in a cotter pin, and a weld :rolleyes:

#1 weakness. Bolts falling off (Im not kidding)

[Linda]

Do you have a spacer inside that rod-end bearing?

[1BLKJP]

Who's steering is that? I wouldn't think with the amount of movement and with gravity that one could even get a nut to stay tight on that type of setup?

Good thing you noticed it when you did. Another couple of days and that could've been ugly.

[JamesT]

Do you have a spacer inside that rod-end bearing?

& does the bolt fit tight in the pitman arm? (look like there is a gap)

[jeepboy]

Do you have a spacer inside that rod-end bearing?

No the bolt is a perfect fit

& does the bolt fit tight in the pitman arm? (look like there is a gap)

Yeah the top half is a good fit, but the bottom half tappers out. I checked it before I put the drag link on (yes this is my engineering) and there was no play at all.

[xFallen]

No the bolt is a perfect fit



Yeah the top half is a good fit, but the bottom half tappers out. I checked it before I put the drag link on (yes this is my engineering) and there was no play at all.

Ack. The taper on the Pitman arm really should either have been removed by hogging it out for the bolt so that the fastener fgit snuggly in a uniform fashion, or a TRE with the right taper on the stud used. That's really not a good setup.

Rod ends like that have maybe 22 degrees of movement. At extremes it may bind with the Pitman arm at some point. It may not, dunno. The spacer question prior may have been in reference to that. Bushings are often used to keep the edge of the spherical bearing true to the mounting surface and the rod end shell away from it so it has free unbound movement.

I am glad you found the problem when you did. The Pitman arm is probably wallowed out and the rod end may be ruined also. For sure the fasteners are toast.


Barry

[RufftyTuffty]

Got two words for you....




















Cotter pin :D

~Mike

[xFallen]

Got two words for you....

Cotter pin :D

~Mike

That may be a nylock but I am with you a lockingpin would be highly advised. I bet that bolt is stretched from the wallowing around in a tapered hole like that. I am scared just looking at it.


Barry

[jeepboy]

Yeah I know it isnt the greatest system ever but with overkill rod ends on both sides of the drag like that is made out of 1/4in DOM tubing the grade 8 bolts are sortof the weak link. No worries though, I just put in a cotter pin.

The articulation isnt the greatest but at full droop, and stuff, the steering doesnt rub, or bind on anything. That was my main concern. A POSSIBLE 1/16in of play isnt on the top of my "worry about" list. Yeah Im a "eh, its pretty close" mechanic :D :D

Seriously though, bolts like these come off all the bloody time. Before every trip I spend 1 1/2 hours going over everybolt to make sure it is tight. I obviously havn't been out in a while :rolleyes:

The bolt wasnt messed up but I went ahead and replaced them anyways

[desertfabmotors]

I would modify the pitman so it mounts in a double sheer. This way there that will not happen again.:D

[Linda]

Even a grade 8 bolt doesn't have a hard enough surface to match a rod-ending bearing. The bearing material itself will wear down a bolt really fast because of the mismatch not only in material but in fit. A spacer is used to put softer material between the two and also provide a better surface for the bolt to ride on. There are companies that sell spacer material already turned to the correct OD for an interference fit in standard rod-end bearings. From there, all you need is someone to put it on a lathe and drill the right size hole needed for the bolt. BTW, shock absorber spacers won't work. :)

You're really lucky to make it this far with that setup!

[desertfabmotors]

My brother barrel rolled his rig on the freeway because of that setup. The bolt was tight but it sheered at 70 mph. If you drive it on the street I would modify the pitman so it is mounted in a double sheer. It is a simple mod. for a much safer set-up. Grade 8 bolts will sheer before they bend.;) It also looks like the pitman has a twist in it already.

[jeepboy]

If you drive it on the street I would modify the pitman so it is mounted in a double sheer. It is a simple mod. for a much safer set-up.

So whats a double sheer? I googled it and searched the forum but came up with nothing.

[flxy_tj]

Double shear is making the setup so the bolt would be supported under the head and the nut and kind of like sandwich the rod end between the two supports.
One being the pitman arm and the other being a bracket that would come around and support the bottom side of the rod end and clamp down tighter and the rod end and share the load through the lower bracket insted of making that one little bolt try and turn the wheels.
I'm not good at explaning just doing......

[xFallen]

So whats a double sheer? I googled it and searched the forum but came up with nothing.

:confused:
:confused:
:confused:

The very first hit of hundreds from google using the phrase "double shear" is this illustration:

http://www.ijee.dit.ie/OnlinePapers/Interactive/Philpot/bolted_double.htm

This one has a bunch of fundamental mechanical concepts. Kind of a mechanical 101:

http://ocw.mit.edu/NR/rdonlyres/Architecture/4-440Basic-Structural-TheorySpring2003/C73A3206-90BB-495A-BB3A-E599C211ABE2/0/10.pdf

Cool. This one has the math to back it all up. Gotta love that.

http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Screws/Bolted_Joint.html

There are 84 pages of hits returned by google... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

There are four hits here on VJC and some of them refer to steering.

Are you related to Nick? Just curious. :D


Barry

[xFallen]

So whats a double sheer? I googled it and searched the forum but came up with nothing.

OMG. You had to know this was coming. I thought I remembered something about this...You were at one point reading this very thread.

Please look at this thread:

http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/showthread.php?t=11808&highlight=double+shear

Cole of 4 Wheelers pointed out why Hiems were not a good idea unless they were done right. Very few systems do them right. You take your chances and in steering applications the cost of failure is high.

The point is, pretty much everything was discussed in that thread and at the very least some big red flags and clues were present. I know this is a bit like rubbing salt in a wound, but when knowledgeable people like 4 Wheelers and Desert Fab give up information and advice, damn, you need to listen and learn until you understand. There's a lot of people here who have been there done that and can help you before you before something becomes more serious.


Barry

[xFallen]

Single shear design might also employ safety washers.

I don't know ho wmuch you spent on your steering, but ehre's a guy in Tucson who builds kits for pretty much whatever and it is $260 range for the parts. CrMo tubing (other options too), good rod ends and/or TREs, you name it. All there.

http://www.ballisticfabrication.com

I have not used his stuff but really am kicking myself for not trying his approach first.


Barry

[RufftyTuffty]

Or...swap out the heims on the DL to TRE's...3/4T min IMO.

Heims on the TR are ok as they dont have the laterial movement.

~Mike

[jeepboy]

:confused:
:confused:
:confused:

The very first hit of hundreds from google using the phrase "double shear" is this illustration:

http://www.ijee.dit.ie/OnlinePapers/Interactive/Philpot/bolted_double.htm

This one has a bunch of fundamental mechanical concepts. Kind of a mechanical 101:

http://ocw.mit.edu/NR/rdonlyres/Architecture/4-440Basic-Structural-TheorySpring2003/C73A3206-90BB-495A-BB3A-E599C211ABE2/0/10.pdf

Cool. This one has the math to back it all up. Gotta love that.

http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Screws/Bolted_Joint.html

There are 84 pages of hits returned by google... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

There are four hits here on VJC and some of them refer to steering.

Are you related to Nick? Just curious. :D


Barry

Yeah I typed in double sheer, like it was spelt in the previous posts :rolleyes:

Okay so you convinced me, now it makes sense. Since I dont have work today I know what I'll be doing. I got the impression that the double shear only needs to be on the pitman side of the DL, doesnt the other side have the same tension, so shouldnt I do that side while im at it? :confused:

Im really glad I posted the pics so you guys could tell me Im going to die with that setup. I'll post new pics of the much safer design

[xFallen]

Yeah I typed in double sheer, like it was spelt in the previous posts :rolleyes:

Okay so you convinced me, now it makes sense. Since I dont have work today I know what I'll be doing. I got the impression that the double shear only needs to be on the pitman side of the DL, doesnt the other side have the same tension, so shouldnt I do that side while im at it? :confused:

Im really glad I posted the pics so you guys could tell me Im going to die with that setup. I'll post new pics of the much safer design

Yay. It is good you are taknig this in the spirit it is meant. Some people get all bent out of shape when they are criticized. :D

I am certainly no engineer or expert but there are people here who can help.

If it were me, I'd go back to TREs. If you must have rod ends, I'd have them all in double shear with safety washers as applicable. You might want to see what Desert Fab or 4 Wheelers can do to help, perhaps. They do this stuff successfully all the time.

Let us know how you make out. We like pictures. :D


Barry

[jeepboy]

Dont worry, Im a big fan of Constructive critisism

Okay new problem :mad: :rolleyes:. The pitman arm is stuck real good and cheap generic pullers dont work. Anyone got a pitman arm puller I can borrow??? pleeezzze :o

[Tom Schenk]

Dont worry, Im a big fan of Constructive critisism

Okay new problem :mad: :rolleyes:. The pitman arm is stuck real good and cheap generic pullers dont work. Anyone got a pitman arm puller I can borrow??? pleeezzze :o

https://www.expeditionexchange.com/blaster/blaster001%20001340.jpg

[xFallen]

Dont worry, Im a big fan of Constructive critisism

Okay new problem :mad: :rolleyes:. The pitman arm is stuck real good and cheap generic pullers dont work. Anyone got a pitman arm puller I can borrow??? pleeezzze :o

Where are you located? I have one that hasn't failed me yet.

Nail that puppy, and anything else that needs to be loosened, with PB Blaster like Tom suggests no matter what.


Barry

[jeepboy]

Im in good ol' Gilbert, but I can travel anywhere to pick it up, Im desperate :rolleyes:. Where do you get that PB blaster? Ive heard a lot about it but have never run into yet.

[xFallen]

Im in good ol' Gilbert, but I can travel anywhere to pick it up, Im desperate :rolleyes:. Where do you get that PB blaster? Ive heard a lot about it but have never run into yet.

I think I get PB Blaster at Ace Hardware, I think.

You know, that puller can be had at Autozone for $20. By the time you factor in the 100 mile round trip from my place to yours, twice, you may as well buy the tool and are likely further ahead financially doing that.

You'll use it again. :D


Barry

[mingoglia]

Im in good ol' Gilbert, but I can travel anywhere to pick it up, Im desperate :rolleyes:. Where do you get that PB blaster? Ive heard a lot about it but have never run into yet.

If you're in Gilbert the Checker on Cooper/Warner definitely has it as I've gotten mine there the last couple of times. If you get a puller and you're tired of using a wrench on it I have air and a big impact. :) ...this is of course assuming you don't already have such fun toys. I unfortunately won't be able to lend much help the next couple of weeks.

Mike

[jeepboy]

Okay so getting the Pitman arm off was a blast. I went down and splurged on a pitman arm puller and slapped that thing on and cranked it down with a 3ft cheater bar, and nothing, didnt even budge. So then I get out the cutting torch :eek:, dont worry, just to heat it up, not cut it off :rolleyes:. The flame wasnt even on it for 2seconds when....BAAAMM!! :eek:, It falls right off. So heres the final product...I hope :rolleyes:

http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5304&stc=1&d=1145057659

The welds penetrated real deep so I know those will hold, but what do you think, Will it work :cool:

[desertfabmotors]

Okay so getting the Pitman arm off was a blast. I went down and splurged on a pitman arm puller and slapped that thing on and cranked it down with a 3ft cheater bar, and nothing, didnt even budge. So then I get out the cutting torch :eek:, dont worry, just to heat it up, not cut it off :rolleyes:. The flame wasnt even on it for 2seconds when....BAAAMM!! :eek:, It falls right off. So heres the final product...I hope :rolleyes:

http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5304&stc=1&d=1145057659

The welds penetrated real deep so I know those will hold, but what do you think, Will it work :cool:

I do not see misalignment spacers, Is there enough movement in the rod end at full droop.? If not it will bind up at the pitman, thats not good.

[SavageSun4x4]

Okay so getting the Pitman arm off was a blast. I went down and splurged on a pitman arm puller and slapped that thing on and cranked it down with a 3ft cheater bar, and nothing, didnt even budge. So then I get out the cutting torch :eek:, dont worry, just to heat it up, not cut it off :rolleyes:. The flame wasnt even on it for 2seconds when....BAAAMM!! :eek:, It falls right off. So heres the final product...I hope :rolleyes:

http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5304&stc=1&d=1145057659

The welds penetrated real deep so I know those will hold, but what do you think, Will it work :cool:
2 words: take taxi

That is one hellva shade tree out at your place, your not smoking the leaves are you:D

[FrenchChili]

Will it work :cool:

it will break:D

Nice work!!! How long did it take you to do it?

[jeepboy]

it will break:D

Well duh, once the PA was off it took like 45mins before
i started to reassemble things

I thought for sure it wouldnt be enough while at full droop. But I lifted a tire up with a forklift and it looked fine. It didnt feel rough while I was turning the wheel or anything. But the real droop is only a few inchs at best in the front :rolleyes:. AND I almost limited the steering to the left but I cut out just the right amount. Today was my lucky day I guess. But im still going to carry spare joints :rolleyes:

SavageSun4x4, this is my taxi :D

I know this probably isnt the "Ideal" Setup, but hey, my rig isnt exactly "Ideal" either :cool: YET :eek:

[Tom Schenk]

Well duh, once the PA was off it took like 45mins before
i started to reassemble things

I thought for sure it wouldnt be enough while at full droop. But I lifted a tire up with a forklift and it looked fine. It didnt feel rough while I was turning the wheel or anything. But the real droop is only a few inchs at best in the front :rolleyes:. AND I almost limited the steering to the left but I cut out just the right amount. Today was my lucky day I guess. But im still going to carry spare joints :rolleyes:

SavageSun4x4, this is my taxi :D

I know this probably isnt the "Ideal" Setup, but hey, my rig isnt exactly "Ideal" either :cool: YET :eek:

It might behove you to invest a couple bucks on a TRE until your rig gets a bit more ideal. If (when) that gives you might end up losing your taxi. :eek:

[xFallen]

Okay so getting the Pitman arm off was a blast. I went down and splurged on a pitman arm puller and slapped that thing on and cranked it down with a 3ft cheater bar, and nothing, didnt even budge. So then I get out the cutting torch :eek:, dont worry, just to heat it up, not cut it off :rolleyes:. The flame wasnt even on it for 2seconds when....BAAAMM!! :eek:, It falls right off. So heres the final product...I hope :rolleyes:

http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5304&stc=1&d=1145057659

The welds penetrated real deep so I know those will hold, but what do you think, Will it work :cool:

That looks like it will bind under flex, unless your suspension doesn't flex much of course. If you have a YJ that maybe the case, dunno. You need proper misaligment bushings to get full movement from a rod end like that.


Barry