NO MORE Rock Krawler Steering -- SEE WHY

[xFallen]

I am going to retire my Rock Krawler X-Factor steering. See below and make your own decision about using yours if you have it installed on your street driven vehicle.

See the missing piece from the bracket? This is the second one that has failed in less than two months. The other one cracked. This one separated completely.

http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5153&stc=1&d=1144535143

http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5155&stc=1&d=1144535143

Notice the crack along the weld seam. Again, this is the second one that cracked. RK replaced the first one.

http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5154&stc=1&d=1144535143

Rock Krawler tells you this steering is not intended for street use. That is their out for a product liability standpoint, I guess.

The tie rod and drag link are extremely strong. No question. So far the rod ends have not failed either although one of them is wearing. Wear is normal. These are the positive things.

The negative things:

poor welds on the brackets THIS IS VERY DANGEROUS since if that weld fails you lose steering control completely
clearly a poor design for the bracket because it keeps failing
binding in off-road flex situations flex - interference between tie rod and drag link is obvious
tie rod bent design means it can move around - this places undue sterss on the Dana 30 steering knuckles


My situation is not unique. I appear to be the only one making it public however. There are a few reasons for that but I know from the PMs I get from people the issues they are experiencing.

This is a dangerous situation for the uninformed or anyone expecting this stuff to just bolt up and forget about it.

I can't even sell this in good faith because of the bracket even if you were to buy a new one. I have a spare and it will go back on until I can replace it with something that works properly.


Barry

[highjeeps]

Try the ORO U-Turn steering. Pricey but beefy.

[jeepin_in_az]

I am not a big believer of brakcets for steering...that just sucks!

I also don't like welding on to the knuckles either.

That being said, I stuck with the first generation steering...and still check it once a week for problems.

[xFallen]

I am not a big believer of brakcets for steering...that just sucks!

I also don't like welding on to the knuckles either.

That being said, I stuck with the first generation steering...and still check it once a week for problems.

Yes, watch that drag-link to tie rod bolt closely. It is not in double sheer like it should be for a rod end like that. The drag link also binds with the tie-rod and that puts additional stress on that bolt. I would suggest a jam nut too in addition to the nylock or whatever is there.


Barry

[xFallen]

Try the ORO U-Turn steering. Pricey but beefy.

I looked at it a while back and it was tempting. It has its own share of grief and some like it, others don't. People have broken the ORO brackets too. Make no mistake -- the RK rods and joints are probably the strongest on the market. I'd rather have it for no-competition off-roading than anything aluminum or hollow unless it is .25" or better. Tera makes (or made) a decent one too that I like better than even the ORO or RK but it is also pricey.

I will probably end up making my own or having something made to suit the new suspension and axle when the time comes.

The closest thing I what I consider a good steering setup is Desert Fab's.


Barry

[jeepin_in_az]

I agree with you Desert Fabs. He uses the Tera knuckles, no welding, no brackets!

[SavageSun4x4]

What were you doing when it failed? [hope you were driving on the street].

[RufftyTuffty]

Yep...i had a Tera knuckle on my 30...is was a nice way of doing a crossover setup....the only problem is it's money down the drain.

~Mike

[xFallen]

What were you doing when it failed? [hope you were driving on the street].

You would prefer to see the steering cause me to crash and burn, huh? Hrmm. Well, I'd rather have it fail off-road and hope nothing critical on your rig fails at 70 mph either.

It failed sometime between the last time I was out and the last time I parked the rig. I found it in the course of post-ren/pre-run maintenance, which is pretty much every run. Like anything, it failed over time. Metal rarely just fails instantaneously, although it can of course.


Barry

[xFallen]

Yep...i had a Tera knuckle on my 30...is was a nice way of doing a crossover setup....the only problem is it's money down the drain.

~Mike

Well if it served its purpose during the time you used it...but I understand. The D30 days are numbered.


Barry

[SavageSun4x4]

You would prefer to see the steering cause me to crash and burn, huh? Hrmm. Well, I'd rather have it fail off-road and hope nothing critical on your rig fails at 70 mph either.

It failed sometime between the last time I was out and the last time I parked the rig. I found it in the course of post-ren/pre-run maintenance, which is pretty much every run. Like anything, it failed over time. Metal rarely just fails instantaneously, although it can of course.


Barry
Well at least you caught it before you and or other folks got hurt.

I meant to write "weren't":)

[xFallen]

Well at least you caught it before you and or other folks got hurt.

I meant to write "weren't":)

Yeah I know...figgered if you really wanted me to crash and burn you would have said so outright. :D

Seriously, it is not a good situation for a street driven vehicle.


Barry

[4 Wheelers Supply]

Currie steering, Large and safe.;)

[mingoglia]

Currie steering, Large and safe.;)

That's what I was going to suggest. Simon, do you know of a reputable shop he could pick that up? :p

Mike

[xFallen]

I found this crack also after removing the bracket from the Jeep.
http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5184&stc=1&d=1144632801

And here is the other side. The crack is all the way through.
http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5185&stc=1&d=1144632801

And here is the cracked weld. It is also all the way through to the other side and runs over half the length of the weld.
http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5186&stc=1&d=1144632801


This steering binds very badly. You can see quite clearly on the links where it rubs. I lose the ability to turn the wheel at full droop due to interference with the bracket.

Also, a question: is the drag link on the RK X-Factor steering supposed to be straight or does it have a slight bend? Mine is quite definitely bent with no apparent reason except that it is bent where it binds the most based on the amount of paint and metal removed. Perhaps it is bent due to the binding, not sure. I rather doubt it took an impact up there.


Barry

[xjcrawlr]

Isn't Performance Offroad an RK dealer now?

Yet no responces? :confused:

[LOST TJ]

Geez.....:eek: Thanks for the heads up Barry. I'm glad that didn't happen on the street to you. Looks like i'm gonna have to replace mine. I'll have to inspect it real good first, but seing that and knowing i drive my kids and woman around in the Jeep, it has to go.

[desertfabmotors]

If you wheel it hard, Cross- over Steering is the only way to go.;) But the harder you wheel it the you need to do maint.:p :D

[tyota]

Isn't Performance Offroad an RK dealer now?

Yet no responces? :confused:


ya I'm a rockkrawler dealer, that doesn't require me to have an input of your concern:rolleyes:
I've spoken to barry privately, and I see no reason why to inform you of our conversation

[tyota]

Isn't Performance Offroad an RK dealer now?

Yet no responces? :confused:

I know what, why don't we wait for a response from all the Arizona RK dealers, here's a list of them,

4720 North 16th Street, Phoenix, AZ 85016
(602) 274-8383

Gordie's Speed Center
1878 Arizona Avenue,Yuma, AZ 85364
(928) 782-4744

3807 North 30th Ave. Phoenix AZ 85017
(877) 948-8949 or (602) 248-8949

3110 East Cactus Rd. Phoenix AZ 85032
(602)-971-6300

Northern Arizona ATV and Off Road
6411 Copper Hill Road, Prescott Valley, AZ 86314
(928) 772-7220



now we can sit here and wonder why the dealers aren't responding, oh wait thats right, we didn't make the part, we only sell the part, maybe you forgot that, and will remember that next time you try to point out a local shop as if their "required" to have an input on a certain product

[xFallen]

Isn't Performance Offroad an RK dealer now?

Yet no responces? :confused:

I personally didn't really expect responses from the dealers but whatever input they may have is of interest. Nick isn't the only RK dealer in Arizona or Phoenix for that matter. My point was only to alert fellow users of this serious issue. What would be better is if the manufacturer fixed the problems, not that it matters to me personally in this case. Even a promise of a fix wouldn't change the point of this thread.

I want to make sure anyone with this steering really knows the deal because I know I am not the only one who has experienced this yet NOBODY has said anything publically.

I try to go over my rig before and after a run. I usually give it a once over before I leave the parking lot after a trail run because this is a street driven machine. The idea of finding out things like broken steering and stuff at 70 mph on the freeway doesn't appeal. I have been burned this way before when I allowed critical fasteners to get loose. Hard wheeling means more maintenance.

I also know that not everyone does this, hence the post.


Barry

[xFallen]

If you wheel it hard, Cross- over Steering is the only way to go.;) But the harder you wheel it the you need to do maint.:p :D

Agree on the steering. Hey...there's an echo in here....x10 on the maintenance. Everyone can benefit from this and it does come up from time to time. Torque the fasteners, lubricate stuff that needs it, and look for stuff that is trying to break.

It is about time for Don to chime in with the (very valid) reason his rig is always so nicely painted. :D


Barry

[SavageSun4x4]

It is about time for Don to chime in with the (very valid) reason his rig is always so nicely painted. :D


Barry
Right on Bro. My rig is clean and painted underneath not to have a good looker, but to see what has moved, semi-broke, scratched and dented. All telling me what to fix, add, delete or modify.

Made some mods to the track bar while back and was under there giving it the looky-loo to see if all was well. In making the mods I installed a larger and also longer bolt on the axle end. Everything looks good until I see a flash of light which turns out to be where the longer bolt was scraping the fuel tank skid and also getting into the fuel tank.:eek: Quick adjustment with my cutoff wheel made the bolt shorter, no more scraping the fuel tank.

Most of all, I grabbed my rattle can of semi gloss black and hit the gas tank skid on those scrape marks to I could check it next time I wheeled it.:cool:

[Tom M.]

Thanks for the heads up X-Fallen. I was considering this set up awhile back. Sorry we had to hear about this at your misfortune though.

[mingoglia]

ya I'm a rockkrawler dealer, that doesn't require me to have an input of your concern:rolleyes:
I've spoken to barry privately, and I see no reason why to inform you of our conversation

Nick, as many do (myself included) you have an opinion on just about everything. I too find it too much of a coincidence that you kept completely quiet on this one yet even the smallest opportunites to comment are rarely missed. I decided to keep silent on this after your first sarcastic response, but the second one was a bit too much. Don't give anyone the crap that you didn't feel like you owed anyone a explanation. You really don't, but a show of a concern publically wouldn't have been all that bad. Just a simple, yeh, I've seen that to be a problem and I've been in contact with RK on it, or no, I've never heard of that one.

I'm sure you're talking privately to Barry as you've always taken care of him but there's a lot of us that currently have or are considering this very set up. I also am aware that RK is now monitoring this forum and that you probably fell that you have to put on a face for them. I'm very confident that if a problem exists, it will be dealt with and we'll move on. However, it's how these problems were addressed that says a lot about the character of the manufacturer and the reseller. It's this character and professionalism that I'll primarily consider when I'm shopping for my next lift. . . I'll completely forget about this particular problem, but if RK steps up to the plate and works with Barry that will make 90% of my decision to purachase one of their kit when the time comes.

MIke

[tyota]

I kept quiet, only b/c this wasn't/isnt a direct cause on my part, I was in contact with RK to let them know, and ofcourse everyone is out at the EJS.
I don't believe either one of my sarcastic responses were too much, and I'm not going to be the scapegoat/ nor the direct individual to blame for this,
I also dont feel the need to publicly respond to every post whether it's related to RK or not. I saw the issue and I dealt with it the best way that I can/would, and never thought for a second that I was required to chime in or show a "public concern"
Now that I've been drawn out, I feel the need to be extremely defensive. and to re-direct this post back to it's orginal content would greatly be appreciated.

[mingoglia]

You've prove time and time again that you're one of (if not the most) standup guys on this forum Nick. There's no doubt about that. I challenge anyone to prove otherwise. I was just suprised you didn't have much to say regarding this. This could be potentially a life or death situation. Many on this forum don't check their Rick as much as Barry (partularily because Barry is a crazy bas-terd and doesn't climb underneath to check out what "may" have broken, but climbs under there to see "what" broke after each trip). Anyway, if this was me I may have flipped over on the freeway with my son as I only crawl underneath every few weeks. Sad to say, sometimes it takes me until the next weekend to find time to climb underneath after a wheeling weekend. Yeh, crap can happen at any time, but if this is a "known" issue then the merits of this claim should be explored. Who best to get in the middle of this then our only current participating RK dealer on the forum. I'm positive that Rick Beer would represent every other post if there was a thread about welds breaking on his Unique steelies or MTR's were having issues with beads coming apart on the highway.

Mike

[tyota]

well let me completely clarify so that their is no misunderstanding.
I was in contact with RK the instant I was aware of this issue, as a RK dealer I feel thats something I should do, and also I was quick to get in contact with the person who came across this problem, and that person is now the new owner a brand new free Currie set up, so as you would expect I did all that I could/would to resolve this issue immediately, however this is an issue for the manufacturer not myself, all the time I didn't feel it was needed to chime in publicly on a forum board when that isn't going to solve anything.

[jeepin_in_az]

I think Nick did the right thing. All anyone can do is speculate about why he didn't post up. Maybe he was working the deal of the currie setup?? It was posted on a Saturday, and Nick was out of town. His first post was at 11:20 AM Monday morning, after someone said something about it. Maybe between 9:00 and 11:00 he was working with RK, Barry, and his Currie contact...


BTW - Barry, do you need some stock knuckles for the Currie setup???? Let me know.

[SavageSun4x4]

Mike, I see where you are coming from and you have many legit points. I also see where Nick is coming from. In this case Nick and Barry had already had a discussion that resulted in some action taking place. Seemingly Barry is happy with the response that Nick has provided.:)

I think were I in Nick shoes I would have set back, keep my mouth closed and let this play out on the forum without my interference for several reasons:

Barry and Nick had already spoken off line
Vendor liability issues

In the event that something had happened resulting in an accident, the vendor would be on the sue all list. In spite of the fact the vendor is just a vendor of the product not the manufacutrer. This situation could be changed dramaticaly if the vendor had installed the product.

Nick might well have seen himself in a damned if I do, damned if I don't situation. Nick has to view this as Nick the concerned wheeler, the vendor of a product gone bad, owner of a business, his vendor-supplier relationship, his public image and the individual who purchased said product from him, a tough row to hoe and I believe he took the least wrong path in a field full of more wrong ones

You, Mike have voiced some concerns that are well founded. However, and as Nick said he felt he had to go on the defensive.

No one is wrong here and its a turd no matter how you look at, your right and so is Nick.

[DsrtJeeper]

JMHO here; but shouldn't people be calling out RK and not their dealers? Let's wait until EJS is over and RK is back to answering questions personally. So far I see RK giving Nick and others the run around with no definitive solutions. RK needs to see more complaints from more customers. If and when RK responds here; a civil discussion will most certainly bring forward better results. The lynch mob mentality just doesn't cut it. The engineering of a product is in the manufacturers hands, not the dealers. All the dealers can do is relay design flaws to the manufacturer. I would think Nick has the most at stake and is trying his damndest to right this situation to protect his livelihood. Put yourselves in Nick's shoes.

Kudos to Barry for making this issue known in a mature manner. Now how about it Jeremy; can we look forward to a safer steering design from RK in the near future?

[xFallen]

Maybe this bears repeating. Sorry if it is long.

My posting of this should in no way reflect poorly on the vendor, in this case Nick or Performance Off-Road. Nick's company sells many products. He has worked with me to the extent he is able by listening to my concerns, offering to provide resolutions, providing replacement parts, and by making my concerns known to the manufacturer. My thrust has always been to have a better product because it is what I own.

Nick provided me with a replacement steering system. I did not mention that because it was not anyone else's business. I did not expect it and know that there's no way he could do something like that for everyone. There's no profit in it for him and it is someone else's issue to address correctly. He is trying to make things right even though this is quite clearly a problem that only Rock Krawler can resolve. Seriously, it is far above and beyond.

When we purchase these sorts of things, and wear them out quickly or break them, we really have to carefully consider what is reasonable breakage or wear. If we abuse things, we need to take responsibility for that. If it is something that was supposed to take the abuse, sure, take issue with the manufacturer. If not, deal with it and move on.

I have experienced unusually high wear and breakage on a few things. I know for a fact that I am not alone. I also have been able to get some of these things resolved. Some of them were resolved by RK, some of them were not resolved by RK. For some of these items, oh well, we move on. Just so we're clear, this is not a unique situation to RK or myself. Look elsewhere and you'll see situiations where other manufactureers choose not to stand behind their products. They are, after all, businesses not charities and everyone must make that value proposition.

I know that Nick has raised the concerns about the steering system with the manufacturer, Rock Krawler, and I hope that they will be responsive. Nick can't control them. I do not expect Nick to do anything other than light a fire under them. I believe he has done that.

I do hope that people's awareness of their own rigs is heightened somewhat and that Rock Krawler pays a bit more attention to R&D for these critical components. They have decent products otherwise.

Make no mistake, lives are far more important than reputations or hurt feelings. As has been demonstrated the RK steering is dangerous under certain situations that are reasonably expected through its normal and intended use -- rock crawling.

The point of this thread was to alert people with this steering system so they can be aware and make their own decisions. I do not believe that absolutely everyone with this steering will experience the same situation. I also know I am not the only one who has. Because this is a serious component I did not feel I could keep quiet about it. This should not be Nick bashing, or any other Rock Krawler deal for that matter.

Note that Nick is the only one who spoke up about anything at all.

I hope that helps clear things up a bit. We have some good vendors here on this board and I hope that we can keep an open and healthy community for our hobby.


Barry

[xFallen]

Mike, I see where you are coming from and you have many legit points. I also see where Nick is coming from. In this case Nick and Barry had already had a discussion that resulted in some action taking place. Seemingly Barry is happy with the response that Nick has provided.:)

I think were I in Nick shoes I would have set back, keep my mouth closed and let this play out on the forum without my interference for several reasons:

Barry and Nick had already spoken off line
Vendor liability issues

In the event that something had happened resulting in an accident, the vendor would be on the sue all list. In spite of the fact the vendor is just a vendor of the product not the manufacutrer. This situation could be changed dramaticaly if the vendor had installed the product.

Nick might well have seen himself in a damned if I do, damned if I don't situation. Nick has to view this as Nick the concerned wheeler, the vendor of a product gone bad, owner of a business, his vendor-supplier relationship, his public image and the individual who purchased said product from him, a tough row to hoe and I believe he took the least wrong path in a field full of more wrong ones

You, Mike have voiced some concerns that are well founded. However, and as Nick said he felt he had to go on the defensive.

No one is wrong here and its a turd no matter how you look at, your right and so is Nick.

I agree Don. It's a turd no matter what. I felt like a turd bringing it up because I know what consequences might ensue. But safety versus looking like a turd, well, safety will win every time.

Nick needn't be defensive and he needn't even speak up. It isn't his doing. He has been forced to divulge some stuff he shouldn't have had to -- our arrangement with the steering. That was our business.

People should be rattling RK's chain about this if it affects them, or mine if they want to. :D


Barry

[SavageSun4x4]

JMHO here; but shouldn't people be calling out RK and not their dealers?

Based upon the pics that Barry has provided I see several things:

Possible poor quality welds

Possible weak engineering and design parameters that might have resulting in overly stressed components.

Possible lack of pre-release testing that might have allowed detection of flaws.

All of these sit in the hands of the OEM not the vendor. With one exception:

Possibility of improper installation by vendor or end user resulting in component failure as a result of being stressed beyond design parameters.

[xFallen]

I think Nick did the right thing. All anyone can do is speculate about why he didn't post up. Maybe he was working the deal of the currie setup?? It was posted on a Saturday, and Nick was out of town. His first post was at 11:20 AM Monday morning, after someone said something about it. Maybe between 9:00 and 11:00 he was working with RK, Barry, and his Currie contact...


BTW - Barry, do you need some stock knuckles for the Currie setup???? Let me know.

I might. Thanks. Maybe PM me the details if you could.

I just put on new ball joints yesterday! Haha. Oh well, I only did one side.

Actually, I was about to post up and see if someone had the correct tapered reamer. I am not positive, but I think the taper is 1.5" per foot. it could also be a #2 standard reamer -- dunno. I will have to measure a TRE and see. I think the knuckles could be reamed since the drilling required when I installed the steering really didn't take out much material. One or two jabs with the reamer would likely get the knuckles where they need to be.

I would buy one but they are pricey and I would have to probably wait to get one anyway.


Barry

[desertfabmotors]

Just a little input here.:p
You all need to remember these kits are designed to be a bolt on type kit. These kits are far from perfect. You look at the # of kits sold, the failer of certain components are probally less than 1%.
I repair factory trac-bar mounts at least 1-2 a week because of failer and stress. Why? because they are not designed to go off-road and flex. What do you do? You upgrade to something better. But that has it limits also. What do you do you upgrade again. ect. ect.
The point is everything has its limits and the harder you wheel the quicker the weak links show thier wrath:p
I have never been a big fan of RK steering or Currie. Why? Because I have seen it all and they have their limits.
Also, everyone seems to get hooked on flex, there is such a thing has to much flex expecially with certain steering set-ups.
The Long Arm Kits are already expensive now would you pay another $1200-$1500 added to that price for the proper way to do the steering with big lifts and lots of flex.?

Well I could ramble on this subject forever:p I am done for now:D

[DsrtJeeper]

Just a little input here.:p
You all need to remember these kits are designed to be a bolt on type kit. These kits are far from perfect. You look at the # of kits sold, the failer of certain components are probally less than 1%.
I repair factory trac-bar mounts at least 1-2 a week because of failer and stress. Why? because they are not designed to go off-road and flex. What do you do? You upgrade to something better. But that has it limits also. What do you do you upgrade again. ect. ect.
The point is everything has its limits and the harder you wheel the quicker the weak links show thier wrath:p
I have never been a big fan of RK steering or Currie. Why? Because I have seen it all and they have their limits.
Also, everyone seems to get hooked on flex, there is such a thing has to much flex expecially with certain steering set-ups.
The Long Arm Kits are already expensive now would you pay another $1200-$1500 added to that to do price for the proper way to do the steering with big lifts and lots of flex.?

Well I could ramble on this subject forever:p I am done for now:D

Thanks Todd! You took the words right out of my mouth. I've been trying to think of a nice way to say the same without offending any vendors. As Jeepers; we often get tied up in the hype and we're always trying to save a dime. There's a lot of valuable info on this board from the guys who have been wheeling for years. Do your research and let it soak in. ;)

Maintenance, maintenance, maintenance.....
A friend of mine recently discovered a steering deficiency on his TJ. He is set up very well with x-over steering. No matter what he did; his steering was eratic. Upon firther investigation; TBT found the frame was cracked in 4 places around the steering box. :eek: Yes; millions of dollars in R&D by DC couldn't hold up to the rocks. Perhaps it's time for another "Jeep 101" class that goes further in debth regarding vehicle maintenance and spotting potential problems. All we need is a willing vendor with a lift and some shade. ;)

[desertfabmotors]

Thanks Todd! You took the words right out of my mouth. I've been trying to think of a nice way to say the same without offending any vendors. As Jeepers; we often get tied up in the hype and we're always trying to save a dime. There's a lot of valuable info on this board from the guys who have been wheeling for years. Do your research and let it soak in. ;)

Maintenance, maintenance, maintenance.....
A friend of mine recently discovered a steering deficiency on his TJ. He is set up very well with x-over steering. No matter what he did; his steering was eratic. Upon firther investigation; TBT found the frame was cracked in 4 places around the steering box. :eek: Yes; millions of dollars in R&D by DC couldn't hold up to the rocks. Perhaps it's time for another "Jeep 101" class that goes further in debth regarding vehicle maintenance and spotting potential problems. All we need is a willing vendor with a lift and some shade. ;)


It goes further than just maint. yes you need to do more visual in areas but these kits have thier limitations. When you put lifts and have lots of flex there is a point where bolt on suspensions start have major geometry problems which puts stress to the weekest link. Alot of these geometry stress points would not show up if the suspension did not flex has far. Like I said earlier there is such a thing as to much flex. I can make a suspension drive over a 30 deg. ramp but it does not work for sh** in real world wheeling.

[DsrtJeeper]

It goes further than just maint. yes you need to do more visual in areas but these kits have thier limitations. When you put lifts and have lots of flex there is a point where bolt on suspensions start have major geometry problems which puts stress to the weekest link. Alot of these geometry stress points would not show up if the suspension did not flex has far. Like I said earlier there is such a thing as to much flex. I can make a suspension drive over a 30 deg. ramp but it does not work for sh** in real world wheeling.

Agreed and I'm sure that's why Barry installed limiting straps on his rig, yet the steering still broke. I never understood the concept of manufacturing a lift kit that regularly drops coils on the trail. Why run coils at all?

[1BLKJP]

Hmmmm, interesting thread of events from the weekend. A guy can't be off the board for a couple days without all hell breaking loose. It's kind of funny.

Barry you wheel the hell out of your rig and your probably getting to a point where bolt on parts aren't going to be cutting it anymore. You've got to realize that when you are speaking to an audience of this magnitude also. Like Todd spoke about a less than 1% failure rate on a product. You seem to be getting into that less than 1% these days. But the people that you are freaking out with this thread probably won't ever even come close to blowing up their junk like you do so it's a moot point with them. Now they might have a bad opinion of a company where it's really not even needed. Someone might've yelled "fire" in that crowded movie theater when there wasn't one.

That all being said, and knowing that you needed a replacement steering. I'd bet money that you are going to bind up and bend the Currie setup too. Granted there aren't as many parts involved, but it will still bind at full stuff and droop and can bend. I bent that steering on my rig.

[DsrtJeeper]

Hmmmm, interesting thread of events from the weekend. A guy can't be off the board for a couple days without all hell breaking loose. It's kind of funny.

Barry you wheel the hell out of your rig and your probably getting to a point where bolt on parts aren't going to be cutting it anymore. You've got to realize that when you are speaking to an audience of this magnitude also. Like Todd spoke about a less than 1% failure rate on a product. You seem to be getting into that less than 1% these days. But the people that you are freaking out with this thread probably won't ever even come close to blowing up their junk like you do so it's a moot point with them. Now they might have a bad opinion of a company where it's really not even needed. Someone might've yelled "fire" in that crowded movie theater when there wasn't one.

That all being said, and knowing that you needed a replacement steering. I'd bet money that you are going to bind up and bend the Currie setup too. Granted there aren't as many parts involved, but it will still bind at full stuff and droop and can bend. I bent that steering on my rig.

X2 on the Currie setup. Bent my original one also. The crossover steering was the best setup yet.

[xFallen]

Hmmmm, interesting thread of events from the weekend. A guy can't be off the board for a couple days without all hell breaking loose. It's kind of funny.

Barry you wheel the hell out of your rig and your probably getting to a point where bolt on parts aren't going to be cutting it anymore. You've got to realize that when you are speaking to an audience of this magnitude also. Like Todd spoke about a less than 1% failure rate on a product. You seem to be getting into that less than 1% these days. But the people that you are freaking out with this thread probably won't ever even come close to blowing up their junk like you do so it's a moot point with them. Now they might have a bad opinion of a company where it's really not even needed. Someone might've yelled "fire" in that crowded movie theater when there wasn't one.

That all being said, and knowing that you needed a replacement steering. I'd bet money that you are going to bind up and bend the Currie setup too. Granted there aren't as many parts involved, but it will still bind at full stuff and droop and can bend. I bent that steering on my rig.

I wheel my stuff, yes. But I am not so sure it is wheeled any harder than any other crawling enthusiast. There's plenty who hit the trails just as hard and much harder.

There is insufficient evidence to support the 1% conjecture for this situation. It is a generalization, and I get the point, and it can be applied in some cases. I do not believe it applies in this very specific situation. Of the systems I have personally seen, half have failed. That is not statistically pertinent since there are a pile I haven't seen. I have no way of knowing who has had problems or if it is just localized to those I have seen. Maybe I should stop looking at them. :rolleyes:

Based on personal life experience and from this board in particular, only a few people will be vocal, some send PMs who don't want to make waves but still have had grief, others say nothing at all, and still others may never have a problem for whatever reason. Clearly this is not exhaustive nor scientific. I make no claims as such.

The bracket and a few other aspects of the steering is flawed -- plain and simple. I suspect it can be demonstrated on any RK system but I can say for sure that of the four I have seen in a parking lot, all four had the same issues to some degree.

This is not a situation of crying wolf or any other stuff. As to people freaking out, I thought that was made clear. I make no apologies for raising this issue. It isn't like it just popped up in one moment and on a whim I decided to cause a ruckus. That is also clear in the preceeding thread. The manufacturer was alerted of these issues many weeks ago and had ample opportunity to do the right thing. I saw nothing happening. I got a new bracket. Whoopy. I am not going to sit around indefinitely and play dumb when there are potential serious problems that others have witnessed but not spoken up. Also, the first problems I had way back were before I even hit the trail. No excess flex. No off-road abuse, not even a ramp. :rolleyes:

There are no gaurantees in this life other than it comes to an abrupt halt at some point. I doubt I am even a blip for RK but that's their issue and not mine. We can't know this but if just one person is prevented from losing control and potentially killing or maiming themselves or others then I will rest easy no matter what anybody else thinks.

Lots of things might or might not have been. The facts on this one have been laid out I think fairly clearly for anyone who wishes to read them. various people have added various comments along the way that may or may not apply. This is as one might reasonably expect in a public forum. That's why we're here -- to interact.

As to the Currie, I am not sure yet if it will make it onto my rig. I know of people who wheel a bit less fervently and frequently than I who have broken it. I also know that a lot of people have good luck with it. I am sure it is quality stuff, but I do have concerns that it is not what I need at this stage. I think it would make a great replacement for the stock steering.

The RK tie rod seems virtually indestructable although everything certainly has points of failure. One might even argue that it is overkill. I really would prefer that the rest was workable because this RK stuff is very stout otherwise. I haven't seen anything I believe is stronger.

For me personally I am not inclined to spend much more effort on this Dana 30 other than to keep it wheeling until I have to take the thing offline for upgrades. It has served me well considering where the thing has been. Gotta hand it to Alloy USA.


Barry

[My1stJeep]

To me timing is everything, and it is just unfortunate that this post corrilated with the EJS, with no way for those who can speak to the issue on hand to do so.

While I agree with reminding everyone to do maintenance checks and bring issues to light, I also believe there are many factors that can add to the problem. Not saying this has anything to do with it, but could, something as simple as not getting the alignment done properly can cause uneccessary wear and tear on parts and cause failures. Keep in mind that would also be something I would hope a part like this would not fail due to, you want something as important as your steering solid so you can always keep your rig in control. My point is there are alot of factors that could have contributed to this failure and only time will tell. Problem I see right now is we have an issue brought to light that we know there is no way to get a response to based on the fact that some of the parties are at EJS, so me aren't we beating a dead horse? There are always two sides to everything, yet we already know one side can't be heard until next week.

Why don't we all take a deep breath, relax, we are aware of the issue Barry had and we can see what happens after EJS.

I have the old RK steering, I think it even came off Barry's rig when he upgraded, and love it. No problems with it what so ever. I have to agree it is VERY stout and can't ever see bending it or breaking it. Different set up, so I have different results.

JMO

[desertfabmotors]

Remeber when parts are beefed up the stress goes to another area. It's not brain surgery!!;)

[xFallen]

To me timing is everything, and it is just unfortunate that this post corrilated with the EJS, with no way for those who can speak to the issue on hand to do so.

While I agree with reminding everyone to do maintenance checks and bring issues to light, I also believe there are many factors that can add to the problem. Not saying this has anything to do with it, but could, something as simple as not getting the alignment done properly can cause uneccessary wear and tear on parts and cause failures. Keep in mind that would also be something I would hope a part like this would not fail due to, you want something as important as your steering solid so you can always keep your rig in control. My point is there are alot of factors that could have contributed to this failure and only time will tell. Problem I see right now is we have an issue brought to light that we know there is no way to get a response to based on the fact that some of the parties are at EJS, so me aren't we beating a dead horse? There are always two sides to everything, yet we already know one side can't be heard until next week.

Why don't we all take a deep breath, relax, we are aware of the issue Barry had and we can see what happens after EJS.

I have the old RK steering, I think it even came off Barry's rig when he upgraded, and love it. No problems with it what so ever. I have to agree it is VERY stout and can't ever see bending it or breaking it. Different set up, so I have different results.

JMO

The old stuff won't have this issue. You do need to watch the front bolt though. I beat on that steering pretty good. The rocks usually lost. :D

As to comments from whomever, as stated a bunch of times, this is not like a bombshell or anything...the problem was known to the manufacturer a while back. No excuses.


Barry

[SavageSun4x4]

That all being said, and knowing that you needed a replacement steering. I'd bet money that you are going to bind up and bend the Currie setup too. Granted there aren't as many parts involved, but it will still bind at full stuff and droop and can bend. I bent that steering on my rig.
Well Jack, I guess what your saying is that you are a 1%er:eek:

[1BLKJP]

Well Jack, I guess what your saying is that you are a 1%er:eek:

Don't know about that Don, as I believe that Currie made some changes to the bends they put on that drag link to give more clearance for the Y-Joint to clear the sway bar link mounts on the axle. That was exactly what my problem was and was why it bent on me on the drag link. Even though they told me it was my fault (I believe you have even made comments on the customer service nature of Currie?) that since they made the change to their design it was significant enough to not be a 1% problem.

But to your question at the time I did think I had outgrown that setup which is why I now run the RK Gen 1 steering.

Hey Barry, I remember you saying something previously about you needing to change out your ball joints? Do you think bad ball joints could've caused enough movement in the knuckle along with the added stresses of 37's could've caused the breakage you have faced twice? Just curious, I was thinking about it last night.

[xFallen]

Don't know about that Don, as I believe that Currie made some changes to the bends they put on that drag link to give more clearance for the Y-Joint to clear the sway bar link mounts on the axle. That was exactly what my problem was and was why it bent on me on the drag link. Even though they told me it was my fault (I believe you have even made comments on the customer service nature of Currie?) that since they made the change to their design it was significant enough to not be a 1% problem.

But to your question at the time I did think I had outgrown that setup which is why I now run the RK Gen 1 steering.

Hey Barry, I remember you saying something previously about you needing to change out your ball joints? Do you think bad ball joints could've caused enough movement in the knuckle along with the added stresses of 37's could've caused the breakage you have faced twice? Just curious, I was thinking about it last night.

That's a good question. Since the previous brackets failed before the ball joints were replaced I would have to say no. I have been watching the ball joints frequently because I know that 37"s plus some of the trails the poor Jeep has been through will cause lots of strain on them. I try to check ball joints, u-joints, TREs and suspension joints every time I get close enough to the rig to do so because I know I am pushing it a bit.

You need to keep in mind that this is the third bracket that has failed in one way or another.

But, I think you have a valid point anyway -- 37" rubber plus more than moderate trails and little axle/components aren't the way to go. I can't say how much the knuckle/spindle assembly would flex. Anybody have ideas? It is a cast piece so I would think it would stay fairly true, wouldn't it?

I am pretty sure you'll find the Gen I steering rubs on the left (driver side) of the intersection of the drag link and the tie rod, if that makes any sense. You will find paint missing behind the drag link to the driver's left of the bolt. It never caused me any serious issues on the trail but it did bind a bit at extreme flex and I think casued undue strain on the system. The Gen I stuff was good bang for the buck, I think, as would be the X-Factor kit.

If it wasn't for this bracket, I would not have any real issue with the X-Factor steering. For me, even the binding is more of an irritation than a serious problem although it is indicative of other things.

I am sure glad I didn't put a hydraulic assist on this poor D30. :rolleyes: Although, I understand that people do it.


Barry

[1BLKJP]

I am pretty sure you'll find the Gen I steering rubs on the left (driver side) of the intersection of the drag link and the tie rod, if that makes any sense. You will find paint missing behind the drag link to the driver's left of the bolt. It never caused me any serious issues on the trail but it did bind a bit at extreme flex and I think casued undue strain on the system. The Gen I stuff was good bang for the buck, I think, as would be the X-Factor kit.

I am sure glad I didn't put a hydraulic assist on this poor D30. :rolleyes: Although, I understand that people do it.

Yeah, it can get a little tight in that area. I run mine on top of the knuckle and have pretty much clearanced everything so that it doesn't rub anywhere.

And yeah, I thought about hydro assist on the 30 for about a minute before I decided it would be a waste until I had a different drive train under there running more than 35's.

[desertfabmotors]

That's a good question. Since the previous brackets failed before the ball joints were replaced I would have to say no. I have been watching the ball joints frequently because I know that 37"s plus some of the trails the poor Jeep has been through will cause lots of strain on them. I try to check ball joints, u-joints, TREs and suspension joints every time I get close enough to the rig to do so because I know I am pushing it a bit.

You need to keep in mind that this is the third bracket that has failed in one way or another.

But, I think you have a valid point anyway -- 37" rubber plus more than moderate trails and little axle/components aren't the way to go. I can't say how much the knuckle/spindle assembly would flex. Anybody have ideas? It is a cast piece so I would think it would stay fairly true, wouldn't it?

I am pretty sure you'll find the Gen I steering rubs on the left (driver side) of the intersection of the drag link and the tie rod, if that makes any sense. You will find paint missing behind the drag link to the driver's left of the bolt. It never caused me any serious issues on the trail but it did bind a bit at extreme flex and I think casued undue strain on the system. The Gen I stuff was good bang for the buck, I think, as would be the X-Factor kit.

If it wasn't for this bracket, I would not have any real issue with the X-Factor steering. For me, even the binding is more of an irritation than a serious problem although it is indicative of other things.

I am sure glad I didn't put a hydraulic assist on this poor D30. :rolleyes: Although, I understand that people do it.


Barry

I have seen more than once, on the trail watch the c yokes flex enough to pop the ball joints out. :eek: Thats why I always recommend putting a gusset there to help stop this. Also when the drag link in such a steep angle especially when flexed, it is pushing down on the knuckle instead of pushing sideways. Another reason Cross over is the way to go.:p

[xFallen]

I have seen more than once, on the trail watch the c yokes flex enough to pop the ball joints out. :eek: Thats why I always recommend putting a gusset there to help stop this. Also when the drag link in such a steep angle especially when flexed, it is pushing down on the knuckle instead of pushing sideways. Another reason Cross over is the way to go.:p

Makes good sense.


Barry

[xFallen]

Yeah, it can get a little tight in that area. I run mine on top of the knuckle and have pretty much clearanced everything so that it doesn't rub anywhere.

And yeah, I thought about hydro assist on the 30 for about a minute before I decided it would be a waste until I had a different drive train under there running more than 35's.

I wanted to try that too but never got around to it seriously. I looked at it for a few minutes once and it seems to me the sway bar mount and maybe the track bar bracket were in the way a bit. What was required for you to put it on top of the knuckle in your situation?


Barry

[SavageSun4x4]

Don't know about that Don,...
Not sure what you said, but you missed what I said...I was pulling on you:D

[1BLKJP]

Not sure what you said, but you missed what I said...I was pulling on you:D

Oh no, I got ya bro. :D Just happens you were partly right at the same time. When's that last time that happened? :D

[1BLKJP]

I wanted to try that too but never got around to it seriously. I lookedat it for a few minutes once and it seems to me the sway bar mount and maybe the track bar bracket were in the way a bit. What was required for you to put it on top of the knuckle in your situation?

track bar bracket is fine. there was some issues with the sway bar mounts, but a couple minutes with the grinder on the underside of them and that was taken care of. I ground them down even with the rest of the bracket that faces out on the axle. I half worried it might cause some issues on the mounts to take a bit off of them strength wise, but even with my anti-rock it hasn't caused any problems.

[SavageSun4x4]

Oh no, I got ya bro. :D Just happens you were partly right at the same time. When's that last time that happened? :D
Not sure if you are, have been or know someone in the Harley world. If so then you know about the "1%ers".:D

[rockkrawler]

To All VJC Members

It has come to our attention that two of our customers with our X Factor Steering has broken their brackets and posted that on this site. That is great. This is something we call all learn from. It was also brought to our attention from one of our dealers that the steering stops were not adjusted after the steering kit was installed. This is indeed the cause of the issue. Yes, it is in our directions, but that is not the big learning experience. With our steering we recommend that you adjust the steering stops at the point of interference with the rod end and the bracket on the drag link on the passenger side. If you do not do this or even worse you remove your steering stops all together you can simply run into what two people have done. Keep in mind this is only two out of a few thousand of people. But if we can help those who have had the problem and we all learn something that is great. Every steering kit has its draw backs.

Each manufacturer suggests the steering stops be adjusted. Some of them with the hiem joints mounted horizontal on the passenger side also require you to limit the down travel of the axle because that will also cause issues when that heim joint runs out of misalignment.

On our kit when the steering stops are not adjusted properly you basically have a 4 foot mechanical lever coming from the pitman arm to the bracket trying to break it. If you are parked up against a vertical wall of rock with your steering wheel cranked all the way with no steering stop adjustment that leverage is also added to the leverage from the drag link. When you have the steering stops properly adjusted none of this stress is passed on to our steering bracket, but if it is passed on to where it should be (the positive mechanical stop) you will not have any issues.

Please pay attention to this, not just for us, but for any manufacturer and we are sure you will be happy with everyone?s product.

For these two individuals who have had the problem, we will still honor our warranty and replace the bracket for free. One of the person's involved was honest about the install and said he/she did not adjust the steering stops. In the future we are going to add in two steering stop bolts so when the install is finished if he/she sees they have two bolts left over they will at least call to see where they go. Good Luck to everyone.

[DsrtJeeper]

To All VJC Members

It has come to our attention that two of our customers with our X Factor Steering has broken their brackets and posted that on this site. That is great. This is something we call all learn from. It was also brought to our attention from one of our dealers that the steering stops were not adjusted after the steering kit was installed. This is indeed the cause of the issue. Yes, it is in our directions, but that is not the big learning experience. With our steering we recommend that you adjust the steering stops at the point of interference with the rod end and the bracket on the drag link on the passenger side. If you do not do this or even worse you remove your steering stops all together you can simply run into what two people have done. Keep in mind this is only two out of a few thousand of people. But if we can help those who have had the problem and we all learn something that is great. Every steering kit has its draw backs.

Each manufacturer suggests the steering stops be adjusted. Some of them with the hiem joints mounted horizontal on the passenger side also require you to limit the down travel of the axle because that will also cause issues when that heim joint runs out of misalignment.

On our kit when the steering stops are not adjusted properly you basically have a 4 foot mechanical lever coming from the pitman arm to the bracket trying to break it. If you are parked up against a vertical wall of rock with your steering wheel cranked all the way with no steering stop adjustment that leverage is also added to the leverage from the drag link. When you have the steering stops properly adjusted none of this stress is passed on to our steering bracket, but if it is passed on to where it should be (the positive mechanical stop) you will not have any issues.

Please pay attention to this, not just for us, but for any manufacturer and we are sure you will be happy with everyone?s product.

For these two individuals who have had the problem, we will still honor our warranty and replace the bracket for free. One of the person's involved was honest about the install and said he/she did not adjust the steering stops. In the future we are going to add in two steering stop bolts so when the install is finished if he/she sees they have two bolts left over they will at least call to see where they go. Good Luck to everyone.

That completely makes sense. The steering stops adjusted properly will transfer much of the pressure into the knuckle. On the other hand; why settle for a steering system that shortens your turning radius? I never adjusted them with x-over steering? Don't read too much into this as it is really a curiosity thing. ;)

[tyota]

what I will also do on my end is ask everyone that we've installed RK steering kits on to come by and let us double check(as their might have been an oversight) we will either adjust steering stops, or if their is fatigue in the bracket we will at that time replace the bracket at no cost

[rockkrawler]

"That completely makes sense. The steering stops adjusted properly will transfer much of the pressure into the knuckle. On the other hand; why settle for a steering system that shortens your turning radius? I never adjusted them with x-over steering? Don't read too much into this as it is really a curiosity thing. "

We have only shortened the steering throw by a couple of degrees. This really helps guys with long arm kits run 37 or larger tires from dragging them on the control arms.

[SavageSun4x4]

To All VJC Members

In the future we are going to add in two steering stop bolts so when the install is finished if he/she sees they have two bolts left over they will at least call to see where they go. Good Luck to everyone.
First let me applaud you for gutting up and providing a response. Clearly you are concerned about your product. Few companies show that much concern. Recently I posted on a broken arm on my Currie AntiRock. The thread attracted a lot of interest. Of the nearly 3000 views Currie never posted.

Secondly, adding two steering stop bolts shows somebody at RK is thinking outside the box, a smart move, very smart.

I wish you and your company well...

[My1stJeep]

First let me applaud you for gutting up and providing a response. Clearly you are concerned about your product. Few companies show that much concern. Recently I posted on a broken arm on my Currie AntiRock. The thread attracted a lot of interest. Of the nearly 3000 views Currie never posted.

Secondly, adding two steering stop bolts shows somebody at RK is thinking outside the box, a smart move, very smart.

I wish you and your company well...


X2

I think those 2 extra bolts will get them thinking and either go and actually read the directions or they will call the shop they bought it at or RK to figure out what they are for.

I also want to thank RK for stepping up and letting us know what the issue was and how it can be corrected.

[xFallen]

X2

I think those 2 extra bolts will get them thinking and either go and actually read the directions or they will call the shop they bought it at or RK to figure out what they are for.

I also want to thank RK for stepping up and letting us know what the issue was and how it can be corrected.

Let's not jump the gun. Kiss arse all you like, but you are making arseumptions that are not warranted in anything you can call fact.

My rig HAS steering stops adjusted since the first broken welds were found in the first bracket. Nobody even bothered to ask me if that was or was not the case. "Honestly". :rolleyes: Good lord.

I am not a metallurgist. But for those that work with metal daily know the real problems as there are at least two separate. But I am done with this topic for a variety of reasons some having nothing to do with the steering.

If it works for those that use it, great.


Barry

[danno]

I personally fall into the category of the folks that have the steering, installed it myself and did not adjust the steering stops... I don't have the instructions but I recall it saying something like 'adjust the steering stops as needed' in the final step. Now that RK has indicated what the consequences are for not doing so, I intend on adjusting them...

Incidentally, I have had no problems with my steering yet. The bracket has no cracks and the welds still look good.

I am having some torque steer and bumps steer issues that were not there before I made the change, (I did use a stock pitman) but they are just minorly annoying and do not destabilize the vehicle.

Could have been that maybe there was a bad batch of brackets?

[desertfabmotors]

Few Comments, It is not brain surgery
steering stops are not the only reason!!;)
When flexed you are loosing turning your turning radius.

[nhlbill]

I now this is an old thread, but I have the RK X-Factor steering as well as the X-factor 5.5" long arm kit on my 2005 TJ. I love the lift and steering and have found it to be a well built quality item.

I run mine with a Currie anti-rock which does limit some of the potential flex built into the system and I have had zero binding issues with mine.

I got mine after May 2006 and if I remember right, there is a "Revised May 2006" printed on the instruction sheet front cover. Maybe this is in direct response to this thread and maybe it is some other change, I'm not sure.

When I read a link to your thread I immediately went out to the Jeep and crawled under it to inspect mine. I did install the steering stops as directed and although it did take a bit of the turning radius away, with 4" backspacing wheels and 35" tires I was rubbing on the control arms and needed less anyway.

I'm curious as to what type of system you eventually went to? Not that I am ready to replace mine, just wanted to know what other options there are out there after you drill out your knuckles to 5/8". I mean you cannot go back to a TRE set up now can you?

Anyway, I wanted to say I have had mine on some challanging trails and so far no binding and especially no cracking. It feels solid and so far is holding up great.

I'm sorry to hear you had problems with yours and hope you got it all worked out.
Bill

[danno]

I still have my X Factor...

The bracket is holding up just fine... I have a spare bracket that I carry with me as well in case of failure on the trail.

Incidentally, I have had to re-torque all of the bracket bolts a few times as they have loosened. I recommend that you go ahead and do a nut and bolt on your steering just to be safe.