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View Full Version : Powerline trail...we knew it was coming :(



Nnote
04-03-2006, 01:37 PM
http://www.azcentral.com/community/pinal/articles/0403climbing-park0403.html

So, are they gonna find us a new place to offroad? You can't match the rocky hills in the powerline trail anywhere.
Nick

Blkruby
04-03-2006, 05:20 PM
:D If they're wearing spandix there just speed bumps.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Sandee McCullen
04-05-2006, 07:52 PM
http://www.azcentral.com/community/pinal/articles/0403climbing-park0403.html

So, are they gonna find us a new place to offroad? You can't match the rocky hills in the powerline trail anywhere.
Nick

Powerline trail is on State Trust Land......... there is an entrance from the southwest side so we probably need to get our people together and put together a "force" to demand the entrance.

desertdawg
04-05-2006, 09:31 PM
Powerline trail is on State Trust Land......... there is an entrance from the southwest side so we probably need to get our people together and put together a "force" to demand the entrance.


The southwest entrance is FR315 off of 177 towards Winkleman from Superior. The trail is just as scenic as the one from Oak Flats and takes you to Hackberry Creek or further on to the Powerline Trail

Sandee I thought Powerline/Hackberry Creek was National Forest Land from what I have researched. Does anybody know where the boundaries will be for access. I haven't been able to find any information on where exactly they plan on restricting access once they start mining operations. If they only restrict it north of the green valley area, then we will at least have access to both the hackberry creek and Powerline sides including the senic overlook of devils Canyon.

I brought this issue up in a thread last year but it didn't get much interest. I'm willing to help out as much as I can, so let me know what I can do.

Sandee McCullen
04-05-2006, 09:38 PM
The southwest entrance is FR315 off of 177 towards Winkleman from Superior. The trail is just as scenic as the one from Oak Flats and takes you to Hackberry Creek or further on to the Powerline Trail

Sandee I thought Powerline/Hackberry Creek was National Forest Land from what I have researched. Does anybody know where the boundaries will be for access. I haven't been able to find any information on where exactly they plan on restricting access once they start mining operations. If they only restrict it north of the green valley area, then we will at least have access to both the hackberry creek and Powerline sides including the senic overlook of devils Canyon.

I brought this issue up in a thread last year but it didn't get much interest. I'm willing to help out as much as I can, so let me know what I can do.

I have a land status map .......... the Powerline hill is on ASLD land........ FS surrounds most and I believe there is a short piece from 177 that is BLM. I'll check tomorrow when I have time to pull the map. Let's try and meet next week and start a strategy. Anyone else interested in joining in would be appreciated.

RokNRich
04-05-2006, 09:56 PM
Yes, I'm in. I love that area.

I've also sent several letters and get updates from these guys: http://www.earthworksaction.org/ResolutionCopper.cfm which for the most part is an anti mining environmental group, and also these guys http://www.friendsofqueencreek.com/, which wants to keep the area open for multi use recreation.

This is one case where we need to work with them, not against them (them being the eviros, those being the Republican senators that are willing to bow down to big money mining companies).

As a matter of fact, I'd like to challenge all you hard core republicans (yea, I'm calling you out)to write your senators, Mccain and Kyl and tell them what a crock of BS this land swap is for the outdoor loving people of the valley.

Contact info:
http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm?State=AZ

Sandee McCullen
04-05-2006, 10:39 PM
Yes, I'm in. I love that area.

I've also sent several letters and get updates from these guys: http://www.earthworksaction.org/ResolutionCopper.cfm which for the most part is an anti mining environmental group, and also these guys http://www.friendsofqueencreek.com/, which wants to keep the area open for multi use recreation.

This is one case where we need to work with them, not against them (them being the eviros, those being the Republican senators that are willing to bow down to big money mining companies).

As a matter of fact, I'd like to challenge all you hard core republicans (yea, I'm calling you out)to write your senators, Mccain and Kyl and tell them what a crock of BS this land swap is for the outdoor loving people of the valley.

Contact info:
http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm?State=AZ

The Resolution Copper Mining deal is already a done deal. We're not going to stop this trade. They went directly to the D.C. legislature. Renzi supported this and BLM went along with the trade. My issue with this whole thing is the mining is all going to be under ground and deep enough they're using robots because of the heat and depth. What does that have to do with surface use?

I'm not sure I'd slam "hard core republicans" to much because if it weren't for those "hard core republicans" we wouldn't have any lands to try saving access to. Democrats believe all lands should be "saved for future generations". The "parties" simply need to stay out of the issue of "Public lands for public use". We're all Americans and have the same rights.

RokNRich
04-05-2006, 10:58 PM
The Resolution Copper Mining deal is already a done deal. We're not going to stop this trade. They went directly to the D.C. legislature. Renzi supported this and BLM went along with the trade. My issue with this whole thing is the mining is all going to be under ground and deep enough they're using robots because of the heat and depth. What does that have to do with surface use?

I'm not sure I'd slam "hard core republicans" to much because if it weren't for those "hard core republicans" we wouldn't have any lands to try saving access to. Democrats believe all lands should be "saved for future generations". The "parties" simply need to stay out of the issue of "Public lands for public use". We're all Americans and have the same rights.

I wasn't slamming them, I was asking them to use their influence. I highly doubt that "ALL" democrats believe that the land should be "saved for future generations" and that we wouldn't have ANY land left to wheel if it weren't for the Republicans, but that is a different discussion.

Like I said, I was urging our membership to write to their reps and let them know we are getting shafted in this deal and we are pissed and want their help. That help could be in the form of access to the area (as the mine is underground), or a reprimand that these land swaps shouldn't be tolerated in the future. I'm not sure where you stand on this, but I am not in favor of about 99.9% of any land swap that I've ever heard about. The facts surrounding this particular one bring forth even more disgust than usual for our elected officials, regardless of party.

Sandee McCullen
04-05-2006, 11:09 PM
I wasn't slamming them, I was asking them to use their influence. I highly doubt that "ALL" democrats believe that the land should be "saved for future generations" and that we wouldn't have ANY land left to wheel if it weren't for the Republicans, but that is a different discussion.

Like I said, I was urging our membership to write to their reps and let them know we are getting shafted in this deal and we are pissed and want their help. That help could be in the form of access to the area (as the mine is underground), or a reprimand that these land swaps shouldn't be tolerated in the future. I'm not sure where you stand on this, but I am not in favor of about 99.9% of any land swap that I've ever heard about. The facts surrounding this particular one bring forth even more disgust than usual for our elected officials, regardless of party.

I agree with you in part but this "transfer of lands" has been in the paper and broadly noted for months. It involves a lot of lands that rightfully should be within a change of land management........ i.e. state trust lands & BLM but whether we like it or not the big mining and energy groups have power that we won't ever match. The only place we're going to do any good at this point in time is with the local land managers for access around this area. We have so many issues before us we need to focus on the issues we can do something about.......... this one we cannot.

I've been talking with a few from Resolution Copper in trying to find a compromise regarding the surface lands involved in this but other than that it's going to be hard. The biggest problem I'm facing is the "yahoos" that do as they please irregardless of the rules or signs....... the general feeling out there is if "they do it" so does everyone else. We're our own worst enemy.

RokNRich
04-05-2006, 11:30 PM
like it or not the big mining and energy groups have power that we won't ever match. The only place we're going to do any good at this point in time is with the local land managers for access around this area. We have so many issues before us we need to focus on the issues we can do something about.......... this one we cannot.



From your point of view, this may be correct. However, shouldn't we follow up on an issue, even if it doesn't go our way ?

I sent letters at least 6 months ago on this issue, http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/showthread.php?t=9433

Would I not be negligent in sending my senators a follow up letter after they went the opposite direction I was advocating ? You can bet I would have sent them a letter thanking them had they opposed the deal. I'm disappointed this wasn't stopped, if I want to waste my time and energy *****ing about it, that's my perogative, no ?

CrotalusAtrox
04-05-2006, 11:53 PM
Although the mine is underground, the mining method that RCC wants to use is "block caving", which still causes damage on the surface. Here's an overview:

http://pangea.stanford.edu/research/ODEX/kurts-images/block-caving-mining-method.jpg

And here are some estimates of the area that might subside.

http://www.friendsofqueencreek.com/Image6.gif
http://www.friendsofqueencreek.com/Image7.gif

Because of the landslides and rockfalls that occur during subsidence, all human activity will be excluded in the area.

PJ

Linda
04-06-2006, 09:38 AM
The southwest entrance is FR315 off of 177 towards Winkleman from Superior. The trail is just as scenic as the one from Oak Flats and takes you to Hackberry Creek or further on to the Powerline Trail


From looking at my old, not very detailed maps, FR315 is the only route into that area once the Oak Flats Campground entrance is closed. That would make the Hackberry Canyon/Powerline Trail a loop trail. That puts added stress on that trail, though I am sure it isn't as busy as other trails in the area. If FR315 doesn't cross RC land, it should be relatively easy to convince Tonto NF keep it open in order to access the portion of the trail that lies on State Trust Land.

Is FR315 in good shape? Can it be driven by stock 4x4s like the Tonto NF employees use? Would it be easy improve and maintain?

Now for the milliion dollar question: Did RC make a deal with the Az State Trust Land Department regarding state land south of the Oak Flats Campground? That's where the majority of the HC/PT resides.

Nnote
04-06-2006, 12:41 PM
Fr 315 is definatly not a trail for stock vehicles! The forest road itself could be rated a 3.5 or so!
Anyways, I have no issues with them doing the mining. That area of our state needs an economic jolt. I do have a serious problem with loosing that trail though, and so does the rockclimbing community.
From the pics above about the areas that might subside, looks like the mine could do considerable damage above ground.

Linda
04-06-2006, 12:55 PM
I think the big problem with the rock climbing community was that the access off US60 was much more convenient than FR315. My guess is that most rock climbers don't have 4x4s or don't want the added expense. Hiking in and out from the west side (Hwy 177) with climbing gear, backpacks, etc. probably wouldn't be a lot of fun.

desertdawg
04-06-2006, 09:42 PM
It's hard to see, but looking at the area of subsidence it appears that the whole powerline/Hackberry trail is within the circle.

I'm heading out there this Sunday so if somebody can give me more details on where the access will be restricted, I can check it out so we can kind of know what to fight for.

k7mto
04-07-2006, 12:09 AM
Comparing the circle map with a Google Earth sat map, most of the entrance in from Oak Flats to the first dried up pond area appears to be within the large circle. This includes the steep rock on the way in :(

The larger pasture/pond area where the spur cuts off to the lookout appears to be outside and to the south east of the large circle.

Hence, the southern most secions of the trail (the back half of the powerline and Hackberry Creek itself) as well as FR315 are not within the large circle, nor is Devils Canyon and 5 pools themselves.

Whether this means they'll let us access them via FR315 or not is still questionable, but certainly worth fighting for.

desertdawg
04-07-2006, 12:22 AM
After carefully comparing the trail on Google earth to the subsidence zone, it looks like the area I refer to as the green valley, which is where both the powerline and hackberry trails converge, is at the very lower right hand corner of the map. The entrance to the trail through hackberry is actually on the border where the yellow circle intersects at the dark portion there on the corner. The dark portion is the very north part of hackberry canyon. It also appears that the scenic overlook to Devil's Canyon would also be outside the circle.

We would loose Old Chevy Hill, the rock fin, and the switchbacks but if we could keep access to the trail via FR315 we could still have a very enjoyable trail that includes both Powerline and Hackberry Creek, Petroglyph Rock, Devil's canyon and the optional obstacle, plus several excellent camping spots. I think that is worth fighting for!
http://www.friendsofqueencreek.com/Image6.gif

http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5141&stc=1&d=1144390931

http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5139&stc=1&d=1144390137

desertdawg
04-07-2006, 12:25 AM
Comparing the circle map with a Google Earth sat map, most of the entrance in from Oak Flats to the first dried up pond area appears to be within the large circle. This includes the steep rock on the way in :(

The larger pasture/pond area where the spur cuts off to the lookout appears to be outside and to the south east of the large circle.

Hence, the southern most secions of the trail (the back half of the powerline and Hackberry Creek itself) as well as FR315 are not within the large circle, nor is Devils Canyon and 5 pools themselves.

Whether this means they'll let us access them via FR315 or not is still questionable, but certainly worth fighting for.

Matt, I'm just too slow at these computers, You beat me to it.:D

Sedona Jeep School
04-07-2006, 07:36 AM
Anyways, I have no issues with them doing the mining. That area of our state needs an economic jolt. I do have a serious problem with loosing that trail though, and so does the rockclimbing community.
Economic jolts are overrated.

Look at what mining did for Moab. It has taken over twenty years for that little town to even begin to recover from its mining "economic jolt". And gosh only knows how uranium slag piled up next to the river will affect them for years to come.

Quality of life is priceless. If I wanted an economic jolt, I certainly wouldn't live in Sedona!

And let's not make this a "republican versus democrat" argument--both parties are equally stupid. :D

Linda
04-07-2006, 07:40 PM
First off, uranium is once again a popular mining item. Just ask the folks out on the Navajo Reseravation. The mines around Moab may be opening up again.

In a previous thread I noted that the world, particularly China, has started getting a large appetite for copper and Arizona is one of the few places on the planet that has high concentrations of copper ore. The Resolution Copper Company wouldn't drive a project like this unless it thought it had a very good chance of succeeding.

Anyway, back to the topic. I found a map of the RC land acquisition in the Tonto National Forest. It looks like FR315 cuts across one of the SW corners of the acquisition. It looks like there might be a 1/4-mile stretch of it that's within the RC boundary, Chances are it was done on purpose. Of course, the boundaries could have changed since the map was generated.