blooddrive
01-03-2004, 02:55 PM
24454-24478
24454 From: Jon Loveless <jonloveless@m...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 4:55am
Subject: Re:Dana 35 axles
I believe that Superior does still make D35 axles. They now come as a kit called Super35D. It includes 2 new 30 spline axle sets and an integrated full Detroit locker. I put that on mine and I have run both Terminators, both Ajax, both Woodpeckers and Raw Deal among others - with 35's. It is strong but still carries the D35 shaft housings and dif - they now become the weak link. I don't expect to have any problems with the Superior and 35's but then no one does. I will change to something stronger some day. Maybe when I go to long arms ;-)
It just never stops, does it?
Jon
.
At 07:18 AM 5/28/2001 +0000, you wrote:
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 03:29:01 -0000
From: 97tj@team3.net
Subject: Dana 35 Thanks!
I want to thank everyone for the words of advice on the subject of
rear axles. When the time comes I will change out my humble Dana 35
for something bigger and better. But untill then I hope that I can
get many more years out of it. One question to help me acheave that.
Where can I get stronger axles? Superior no longer makes replacement
axles for Dana 35's. And I have heard some of you talk about a
cromoly axle. Thanks again for the words of advice.
Thane
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVERTISEMENT
24455 From: linda luik <minihummer@w...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 6:45am
Subject: Chicago Trib article on 4-wheeling
Dora Fang posted this on the ZJ-list. I thought it was pretty neat.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/article/0,1051,SAV-0105270420,00.html
and its a really flattering perspective on responsible four wheeling -
hooray~!
Dora-ble
01 XJ solar yellow w/30s, 97 TJ 4"/1.25" lift w/35s
http://www.adventure4wd.com
Adventure 4WD (formerly known as Let's Go Jeepin)
4WD Training and Adventures
Parts and Recovery Gear Outfitters
================================================== ===
Subscription changes: http://lists.off-road.com/zj-list/
Searchable Archives are at: http://lists.off-road.com/zj-list/
Published by Off-Road.com - http://www.off-road.com
24456 From: Garrison St.Clair <gunslinger@i...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 9:07am
Subject: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
Last week someone posted that you should carry Benedryl in case of snake
bite. This information is absolutely incorrect. No medication should be
given by any untrained individual.
In the event of a bite by a venomous snake (or an unknown snake) the
following protocol should be followed. This protocol was written by a
Command Level Physician for use by non-medical personnel.
While I'm sure that many on this list have lots of field experience, reading
the below and keeping a copy in your vehicle cannot hurt. And protocols for
treating venomous snakebites have changed several times in recent years and
newer, safer, antivenin has been developed.
Be careful out there.
Gunslinger
*** North American Venomous Snakebite: Emergency First Aid ***
I. WHAT TO DO:
01. ALL venomous snakes
a). If a SAWYER EXTRACTOR is available and it is within THREE MINUTES of the
bite, apply the extractor and leave in place for 15 minutes.
b) Remove constrictive clothing, footwear, watch, and rings.
c) Rinse bite thoroughly, with fresh water, if possible for 30 seconds.
d) Disinfect bite area with gauze pad soaked with BETADINE, if possible.
* If you are absolutely certain that the offending snake is of the
"neurotoxic" variety (i.e. Coral Snake, Mojave Rattler) then, at this point,
use the Australian Pressure Bandage Technique as follows (if you are at all
not certain as to the type of snake, go directly to "e" below):
-Apply hard direct pressure with gauze pad over bite area
-Strap pad tightly in place with adhesive tape
-Wrap affected extremity with 2"-3" ACE elastic bandaging as tightly as
one would for a sprain
Regardless of the type of venomous snake, continue with the following:
e) Keep affected extremity positioned at or just below heart level, if
possible
f) Immobilize affected extremity; use a splint if possible.
g) Transport to medical attention as soon as possible.
h) Identify (and/or kill and bring to medical facility) the offending
species of snake ONLY if safe to do so.
Note: Most authorities do NOT recommend the Australian Pressure Bandage
Technique described above for envenomation by American snakes unless they
are neurotoxic whose effects are systemic with little local necrosis,
therefore preventing spread by this method makes sense. American snakes by
and large secrete a hemotologic toxin which causes severe local necrosis,
therefore limiting its spread my increase local tissue damage.
Immobilization and immediate transport are lifesaving. A proximal
constriction band applies with enough pressure to close off lymphatics may
be
useful but you REALLY have to know what you are doing to
apply it and monitor correctly.
WHAT NOT TO DO:
Don't eat or drink anything.
Don't engage in strenuous physical activity.
Don't cut or incise bite marks; do not apply oral suction to bite.
Don't take alcoholic beverage or any medication.
Don't delay seeking medical attention.
Don't apply cold or hot packs or a constrictive tourniquet.
Don't apply electric shock of any kind.
Do not remove dressings/elastic wrap until arrival at hospital.
IMPORTANT CONTACTS IN A SNAKEBITE EMERGENCY (Give This Information to Your
Medical Provider)
Antivenin:
Protherics OVINE TECHNOLOGY 1-800-231-0206 (This is the newer technologic.
Severe anaphylactic reactions almost unheard of)
Wyeth-Ayerst HORSE DERIVED 1-610-688-4400
Physician Consultants Accessible 718-430-6494
24457 From: James Towle <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 9:13am
Subject: Newtimes Responses
There are some responses to the article published "Rec Room," by the
Newtimes at:
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/issues/2001-05-24/letters.html
Some are interesting.
--James
24458 From: linda luik <minihummer@w...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 9:13am
Subject: Liberty is here!!!
Just drove by Darner's (had to work this morning). There's a pretty
white Liberty in the lot. $23k price tag. The rear door looks to be
2-piece. You have to open the window before you can swing out the lower
door -- Yuk! Other than that it looks pretty nice.
Linda
24459 From: Greg Mobley <gregorym85268@y...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 9:20am
Subject: Re: Re: Zippers
I would like to thank all that replied with help for my zipper problem I am going to be buy a case of Ivory soap
Thanks again Greg
Jeepguy@zombieweb.com wrote:
I just put some spray silicon on them yesterday... I just sprayed a
rag and rubbed the zipper so I didn't get overspray everywhere! It
seems to work pretty good so far... I also bought a cheap D ring from
Home Depot, and cliped it on my rear view mirror. When I go to mess
with my windows I clip the D ring on the fob so I have a nice big tab
to pull instead of those little fobs! -Rob
--- In az_vjc@y..., Greg Mobley wrote:
>
> Hey Gang
>
> I need some advice on what to put on zippers for my 2000TJ soft
top, windows side and rear to make them work easier.
>
> Opinions please.
>
> Thank you Greg
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions $2 Million Sweepstakes - Got something to sell?
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions $2 Million Sweepstakes - Got something to sell?
24460 From: Garrison St.Clair <gunslinger@i...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 9:48am
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
Linda,
If getting to a fire station, staffed by paramedics, is a time saver - then
yes. You might also want to check, in general, whether Paramedics in AZ have
access to antivenin. Also ask if they are using the newer type. Its not
all that well known yet - we were updated by some military med-types. The
new type is FAR less rife for complications.
Gunslinger
----- Original Message -----
From: "linda luik" <minihummer@w...>
To: "Garrison St.Clair" <gunslinger@i...>
Sent: Monday, 28 May, 2001 11:22
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
> In the case of a snake bite would it be prudent to get the patient to a
> fire station for faster treatment? Fire stations are more common than
> hospitals and the paramedic units are usually pretty well equipped.
>
> Linda
>
> "Garrison St.Clair" wrote:
> >
> > Last week someone posted that you should carry Benedryl in case of snake
> > bite. This information is absolutely incorrect. No medication should
be
> > given by any untrained individual.
> >
> > In the event of a bite by a venomous snake (or an unknown snake) the
> > following protocol should be followed. This protocol was written by a
> > Command Level Physician for use by non-medical personnel.
> >
> > While I'm sure that many on this list have lots of field experience,
reading
> > the below and keeping a copy in your vehicle cannot hurt. And protocols
for
> > treating venomous snakebites have changed several times in recent years
and
> > newer, safer, antivenin has been developed.
> >
> > Be careful out there.
> >
> > Gunslinger
> >
> > *** North American Venomous Snakebite: Emergency First Aid ***
> >
> > I. WHAT TO DO:
> >
> > 01. ALL venomous snakes
> >
> > a). If a SAWYER EXTRACTOR is available and it is within THREE MINUTES of
the
> > bite, apply the extractor and leave in place for 15 minutes.
> > b) Remove constrictive clothing, footwear, watch, and rings.
> > c) Rinse bite thoroughly, with fresh water, if possible for 30 seconds.
> > d) Disinfect bite area with gauze pad soaked with BETADINE, if
possible.
> >
> > * If you are absolutely certain that the offending snake is of the
> > "neurotoxic" variety (i.e. Coral Snake, Mojave Rattler) then, at this
point,
> > use the Australian Pressure Bandage Technique as follows (if you are at
all
> > not certain as to the type of snake, go directly to "e" below):
> >
> > -Apply hard direct pressure with gauze pad over bite area
> > -Strap pad tightly in place with adhesive tape
> > -Wrap affected extremity with 2"-3" ACE elastic bandaging as tightly as
> > one would for a sprain
> >
> > Regardless of the type of venomous snake, continue with the following:
> >
> > e) Keep affected extremity positioned at or just below heart level, if
> > possible
> > f) Immobilize affected extremity; use a splint if possible.
> > g) Transport to medical attention as soon as possible.
> > h) Identify (and/or kill and bring to medical facility) the offending
> > species of snake ONLY if safe to do so.
> >
> > Note: Most authorities do NOT recommend the Australian Pressure Bandage
> > Technique described above for envenomation by American snakes unless
they
> > are neurotoxic whose effects are systemic with little local necrosis,
> > therefore preventing spread by this method makes sense. American snakes
by
> > and large secrete a hemotologic toxin which causes severe local
necrosis,
> > therefore limiting its spread my increase local tissue damage.
> > Immobilization and immediate transport are lifesaving. A proximal
> > constriction band applies with enough pressure to close off lymphatics
may
> > be
> > useful but you REALLY have to know what you are doing to
> > apply it and monitor correctly.
> >
> > WHAT NOT TO DO:
> >
> > Don't eat or drink anything.
> > Don't engage in strenuous physical activity.
> > Don't cut or incise bite marks; do not apply oral suction to bite.
> > Don't take alcoholic beverage or any medication.
> > Don't delay seeking medical attention.
> > Don't apply cold or hot packs or a constrictive tourniquet.
> > Don't apply electric shock of any kind.
> > Do not remove dressings/elastic wrap until arrival at hospital.
> >
> > IMPORTANT CONTACTS IN A SNAKEBITE EMERGENCY (Give This Information to
Your
> > Medical Provider)
> >
> > Antivenin:
> > Protherics OVINE TECHNOLOGY 1-800-231-0206 (This is the newer
technologic.
> > Severe anaphylactic reactions almost unheard of)
> > Wyeth-Ayerst HORSE DERIVED 1-610-688-4400
> > Physician Consultants Accessible 718-430-6494
>
24461 From: Scott Kruize <osmtj@y...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 10:59am
Subject: Re: AZ Heat and my TJ
Mark,
This is my 3rd summer with my TJ and mine reached the red zone while idling earlier this week for the first time. I've never done anything to the cooling system so I'm going to replace the hoses and thermostat and do a flush and fill. The hoses look okay but when your talking about being on the trail it's better to just replace them every 2 years and carry the old ones as spares.
Good luck with yours. I hope both of our TJs run cooler very soon.
Scott
templar1@home.com wrote:
Saturday I was waiting in the drive thru line at In and out burger,
with my air running and as I moved my way through the line I noticed
my Water temp gauge climbed into the red, now it wasn't pegged but
yikes in the red? It's not even the middle of the summer yet and my
TJ running @ 245 degrees makes me a little nervous. (I immediately
shut off the air, rolled down the windows and turned the heat on full
blast to cool the motor off, which it did) I wouldn't imagine this is
normal for a TJ but maybe I am wrong. The only thing I can think of
is I bought this jeep brand new from a dealer in Indiana and perhaps
they put a thermostat more suited to the Midwest then the scorching
desert I live in. Should I just try a different thermostat or does
anyone else have any suggestions/advise?
-Mark
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions $2 Million Sweepstakes - Got something to sell?
24462 From: James Towle <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 11:07am
Subject: President's arrival
Hey, I just heard the president was arriving at 2:10PM, Williams
Gateway. Is anybody thinking of lining the road with signs, for OHV's?
It would be a pretty awsome sight to see a bunch of Jeeps lined up
there. I don't know if you would be able to get close to the route
though.
--James
24463 From: <jeeperaz@q...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 0:31pm
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
That was me who mentioned Benedryl and I never said anything about
snakes bites in general. If you would have read rather than jumping
to conclusions you would have seen where it was specific to Coral
Snakes. BTW, there is no anti-venom available for the subspecies of
Coral Snake thats found in Arizona (Micruroides euryxanthes). It's a
relatively innocuous snake and no deaths have been attributed to its
bite.
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Garrison St.Clair" <gunslinger@i...> wrote:
> Last week someone posted that you should carry Benedryl in case of
snake
> bite. This information is absolutely incorrect.
24464 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 1:02pm
Subject: RE: Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
Michael,
Hopefully, only a single person will be chattering at one time, else it will be most difficult to distinguish who is saying what. ;)
Having been a ham radio operator for over 25 years, I might suggest one ot two things that could help.
#1. Only one person talk at a time (pretty easy to handle that).
#2. Keep your transmission fairly short.
#3. Let the channel go dead for a couple of seconds before responding to a question or comment. This gives anyone a chance to jump in with that "important trail situation" comment that we all will benefit from.
#4. Try to remember #2 and #3.
In my opinion, having a trail channel and a chat channel is next to worthless. For instance, I want to ask you a question about the fork in the trail. I call you but you don't answer. So....you must be on the other channel. I switch to the other channel and find you exchanging suspension lift instructions with a friend.....well....what have we gained now? You are busy talking to someone else and that "trail situation" comment can not be asked.
Now....if someone wants to switch over to another channel for some reason to carry on a sidebar conversation with another driver....it only takes a second to announce that (make use of #3 to make that happen).
Did I mention trying to follow #2 and #3?
Stu
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Earls [mailto:michael@cerkit.com]
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 12:22 AM
To: AZ Virtual Jeep Club List (E-mail)
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
What about situations on the trail that require some careful attention? If everyone is chattering, don't we miss some of the important things like "Don't get out of the Jeep there, I just saw a 20 ft rattlesnake"... or "the right line will take you down a deep chasm into a giant bottomless pit, I wish we had seen it..."?
Anyway, maybe we should designate a "chat" channel, and a trail channel. I read quite a bit about Jeep modifications on this mailing list.
Or maybe that's a silly idea.
Michael Earls
-----Original Message-----
From: Stu Olson [mailto:solson8@qwest.net]
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 10:43 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
Donna commented that she missed the normal "banter" that she is use to hearing. Of course, she is thinking mostly about last month's Moab run.....which was almost a non-stop radio fest, so to speak. Everybody had their turn in the barrel and a person's action on one obstacle would carry over into the jokes for several days to come.
I enjoyed our conversation last night about underside mods.....but you are right....it was pretty quiet on the radio. Must have had something to do with not knowing about 50% of the people. Hopefully that will change as the summer runs progress!
Stu
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Kruize [mailto:osmtj@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 10:23 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
Stu,
I agree with everything you've said here. I also want to note that it weems on most runs that a few of us chat on the CB, but most people are rather quiet. Some of the most fun I've had on the trail has been some of the wacky conversations I've shared with other Jeepers on the trail. Its a great way to poke some (healthy) fun at each other ;) Speak up people and have some fun. Don't be afraid to join in. Stu only bites at midnight...
Scott
Stu Olson wrote:
James....you hit it right on the head.
Pick up the CB and ask the person behind you to drop back if the lights are
too bright. Simple enough thing to do and no one should take offense at
that. Oops....don't have a CB? Better go get one....do yourself and the
rest of the folks you are running with a favor. ;)
What can become a problem is being spread out over a long distance (when you
have as many as we did last night) and you get into some areas where several
trails converge and split up.....then hoping that everyone takes the correct
turn. Sure, you should never lose sight of the person behind you....but
then this entire discussion is kind of about wanting to lose sight of that
person so you don't have his headlights in your mirror. (great for the day
runs....stinks for night runs) There were many times last night where I
could have easily taken a turn, not announced it on the radio, and no one
would have had a clue which way I went.
The best thing to do is get on the radio and speak up when there is a
problem, question, etc.
Stu
-----Original Message-----
From: James Towle [mailto:James.Towle@asu.edu]
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 7:50 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
I guess a question I would pose is: how close is too close? I felt
like I was keeping a safe distance from who I was following last
night but, maybe the person in front of me didn't feel like it was
safe. My problem, if I have one, of following to close might stem
from going over rocks and focusing on the people in front of me and
their line(s). I was, though, very mindful of my lights being in
others mirrors. The factory fog lights plus the rock lights seem to
do a good job of lighting the trail, when you are moving slow.
Hopefully the people in this club can say something nicely if they
think the person behind them, or anybody else, is putting them, or
anybody else, at risk and the proper response will follow. I think we
are adults.
--James
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Stu Olson" wrote:
> I tried using my rock lights last night as trail lights, and for
me, they
> don't project enough light ahead of the vehicle. (Since I was
leading, I
> wasn't worried about shining them on anyone) ;) They do an awesome
job of
> lighting up the immediate vacinity around and under the vehicle
(great for
> the spotter to see what you are rolling over). There wasn't much
(if any)
> moon last night so no help from that source.
>
> Since I have a pair of factory fogs which have a very thin (in the
vertical
> plane) beam, I'm going to angle them down some and rely on them for
the
> trail.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: amstaff@e... [mailto:amstaff@e...]
> Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 6:42 PM
> To: az_vjc@y...
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
>
>
> Larry makes a valid point. Now that the
> night run season is upon us, it would be a
> good time to invest about $40 in a set of
> rock lights. There's very useful on the trail
> and you won't blind the poor schmoe in fron
> of you.
> Dion
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., jeeperaz@q... wrote:
> > Not here to preach but to inform some that might not know
better....
> >
> > Spacing on the trail:
> >
> > On non-technical trails there is no reason to follow 5ft behind
the
> > person in front of you. Especially on night runs where your
> > headlights are blinding your fellow club member. Of course things
are
> > going to get bunched up at times but we get enough bumper to
bumper
> > on our daily commutes.... no reason to have it on the trail.
> >
> > This goes for hills climbs/decents as well. A number of times
during
> > the past few weeks I've seen someone start up or down a
challenging
> > hill before the person in front of them has made it out of harms
way.
> >
> > Keep your distance.... its not a race to the finish line!
> >
> >
> > Hope everyone enjoys the last bit of the holiday weekend.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > LarryM
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions $2 Million Sweepstakes - Got something to sell?
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
24465 From: Garrison St.Clair <gunslinger@i...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 1:24pm
Subject: Re: Re: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
First, I did not jump to conclusions. You had recommended medicating a
snakebite victim. This is incorrect advice, regardless of the type of
snake. I therefore pointed out this error and provided a protocol for
treating snakebites written by a physician for use by non-medical personnel.
I think I took the correct action in point this and I believe it would be
prudent for all non-medical personnel to follow the posted protocol - unless
ADVISED OTHERWISE by a PHYSICIAN.
FYI, the earlier of the two available antivenin, the Wyeth Serum (equine
base) is used to treat Coral Snake bites as well as those of Pit Vipers.
The later antivenin CroFAB (sheep based) is used only for pit vipers, though
it is considered effective on Mojave Rattler's which are neurotoxic.
Here is a citation for you:
"...Though coral snakebites are rare in the United States--only about 25 a
year by some estimates--the snake's neurotoxic venom can be dangerous. A
1987 study in the Journal of the American Medical Association examined 39
victims of coral snakebites. There were no deaths, but several victims
experienced respiratory paralysis, one of the hazards of neurotoxic
venom...."
"...The bites of both pit vipers and coral snakes can be effectively treated
with antivenin...."
[Source: John Henkel, FDA]
If anyone is interested in knowing more, I'll be glad to point you in the
right direction. but fort the purpose of most trail rides, the protocol
previously posted will suffice.
Gunslinger
----- Original Message -----
From: <jeeperaz@q...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, 28 May, 2001 14:31
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
> That was me who mentioned Benedryl and I never said anything about
> snakes bites in general. If you would have read rather than jumping
> to conclusions you would have seen where it was specific to Coral
> Snakes. BTW, there is no anti-venom available for the subspecies of
> Coral Snake thats found in Arizona (Micruroides euryxanthes). It's a
> relatively innocuous snake and no deaths have been attributed to its
> bite.
>
>
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Garrison St.Clair" <gunslinger@i...> wrote:
> > Last week someone posted that you should carry Benedryl in case of
> snake
> > bite. This information is absolutely incorrect.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
24466 From: Garrison St.Clair <gunslinger@i...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 1:46pm
Subject: Re: Re: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
Oops. When I screw up, I'm the first to admit it. Decided to do a bit of
follow-up on the Coral Snake issue.
Whoever (there was no name) pointed out that the ARIZONA Coral Snake is not
covered by antivenin is correct. Benedryl and other antihistamines are
used, though they should be administered upon physicians instructions. [The
protocol is still correct prior to being advised otherwise by a physician.]
There is also a 24/7 Snakebite telephone number in AZ: 520-626-6016
Gunslinger
----- Original Message -----
From: "Garrison St.Clair" <gunslinger@i...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, 28 May, 2001 15:24
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
> First, I did not jump to conclusions. You had recommended medicating a
> snakebite victim. This is incorrect advice, regardless of the type of
> snake. I therefore pointed out this error and provided a protocol for
> treating snakebites written by a physician for use by non-medical
personnel.
>
> I think I took the correct action in point this and I believe it would be
> prudent for all non-medical personnel to follow the posted protocol -
unless
> ADVISED OTHERWISE by a PHYSICIAN.
>
> FYI, the earlier of the two available antivenin, the Wyeth Serum (equine
> base) is used to treat Coral Snake bites as well as those of Pit Vipers.
> The later antivenin CroFAB (sheep based) is used only for pit vipers,
though
> it is considered effective on Mojave Rattler's which are neurotoxic.
>
> Here is a citation for you:
>
> "...Though coral snakebites are rare in the United States--only about 25 a
> year by some estimates--the snake's neurotoxic venom can be dangerous. A
> 1987 study in the Journal of the American Medical Association examined 39
> victims of coral snakebites. There were no deaths, but several victims
> experienced respiratory paralysis, one of the hazards of neurotoxic
> venom...."
>
> "...The bites of both pit vipers and coral snakes can be effectively
treated
> with antivenin...."
>
> [Source: John Henkel, FDA]
>
> If anyone is interested in knowing more, I'll be glad to point you in the
> right direction. but fort the purpose of most trail rides, the protocol
> previously posted will suffice.
>
> Gunslinger
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <jeeperaz@q...>
> To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 28 May, 2001 14:31
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
>
>
> > That was me who mentioned Benedryl and I never said anything about
> > snakes bites in general. If you would have read rather than jumping
> > to conclusions you would have seen where it was specific to Coral
> > Snakes. BTW, there is no anti-venom available for the subspecies of
> > Coral Snake thats found in Arizona (Micruroides euryxanthes). It's a
> > relatively innocuous snake and no deaths have been attributed to its
> > bite.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Garrison St.Clair" <gunslinger@i...> wrote:
> > > Last week someone posted that you should carry Benedryl in case of
> > snake
> > > bite. This information is absolutely incorrect.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
24467 From: linda luik <minihummer@w...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 1:49pm
Subject: Re: Re: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
This brought back memories of when I lived in Phoenix. My next door
neighbor brought home some dead cactus skeletons for her garden. One
contained a coral snake nest. My neighbor had about 30 cats (phew!
stinky in the summer) and suddenly the cats started dying. No one could
figure out what was going on until one day I found a baby coral snake,
about 4 inches long, by my back door. Fortunately none of the
neighborhood kids found any of them.
Linda
>
> Here is a citation for you:
>
> "...Though coral snakebites are rare in the United States--only about 25 a
> year by some estimates--the snake's neurotoxic venom can be dangerous. A
> 1987 study in the Journal of the American Medical Association examined 39
> victims of coral snakebites. There were no deaths, but several victims
> experienced respiratory paralysis, one of the hazards of neurotoxic
> venom...."
>
> "...The bites of both pit vipers and coral snakes can be effectively treated
> with antivenin...."
>
> [Source: John Henkel, FDA]
>
24468 From: DougB <azjeep@h...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 2:13pm
Subject: Free TJ Radiator
Free to a good home. TJ radiator - needs new cork gasket for the top. Trash
man gets it tomorrow.
Doug
24469 From: Gary MacLaren <gmaclaren@c...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 2:29pm
Subject: Fw: ACT FAST!! CARA Hearing June 20th
-----Original Message-----
From: LandRights Network <alra@p...>
To: 'chuck-cushman-list@f...' <chuck-cushman-list@f...>
Date: Monday, May 28, 2001 12:22 AM
Subject: ACT FAST!! CARA Hearing June 20th
American Land Rights Association - Land Rights Network
PO Box 400 - Battle Ground WA 98604
Phone: 360-687-3087 - Fax: 360-687-2973 - Email: <alra@p...> -
http://www.landrights.org
Legislative Office: 508 First St SE - Washington DC 20003
Phone: 202-210-2357 - Fax: 202-543-7126 - Email: landrightsnet@a...
ACT FAST - CARA Hearing June 20th
Your Congressman and Senator Are Home This Week
WHAT'S THE PROBLEM?
The Greens and Government Agencies Want Your Land.
They're willing to use condemnation to take it. Yes, that's right. If
CARA passes, government agencies will have the money to confiscate your
land.
The Resources Committee is planning to hold a hearing on CARA June 20th.
Sponsors will try to bring it to a vote in early July.
CARA, the Conservation and Reinvestment Act (HR 701), has a huge number of
Co-Sponsors in the House and could pass unless you rise up and oppose it
NOW. Why do the co-sponsors support CARA. MONEY$$, MONEY$$, MONEY$$.
CARA is one of the largest PORK BARREL BILLS EVER. And it will TAKE
YOUR LAND.
WHY IT IS URGENT TO ACT NOW!!
The House Resources Committee has set a hearing on CARA (HR 701) for June
20th.
It is urgent that you write and call your Congressman to oppose CARA.
Congress is home for the Memorial Week Recess until June 4th. This is the
time to go to a local meeting where your Congressman is speaking to oppose
CARA.
Call your Congressman's local office. Put the heat on.
You must make controversy about CARA quickly. You were lucky to defeat
CARA last year. The greens and their land grabbing friends will take no
prisoners this year.
CARA WILL HURT YOU!!
CARA is an all out attack on all landowners including farmers, ranchers,
miners, forestry advocates, recreation enthusiasts and many more. It will
force the closure of hundreds of rural communities and force residents into
the cities.
CARA also funds an assault on Federal land users. It funds more Roadless
and Wilderness areas, and converts millions of acres of private land into
government land which then is made off limits to you.
CARA will make millions of acres off limits to energy exploration and
development while taking $3 billion each and every year for 15 years ($45
billion in total) away from America's ability to solve its energy problem.
CARA makes our energy problem worse while handicapping our ability to fix
it.
READ THIS LIST CAREFULLY
THERE'S A TARGET PAINTED ON YOUR CHEST
HERE'S WHY YOU MUST FIGHT CARA
-----CARA will provide over $45 billion dollars over 15 years in a
guaranteed trust fund, most of it for land acquisition. This is virtually
the same bill you fought off last year.
-----The real name for CARA should be THE CONDEMNATION AND RELOCATION
ACT for that is what it really does.
-----CARA sets aside $3 billion per year that does not have to compete in
Congress for funds in the appropriations process with medical care,
education, defense or any other social need. Why should land acquisition
and condemnation of private land get a higher priority than the military?
MAKE CARA COMPETE - NO TRUST FUND;
-----Government agents and appraisers get well OVER ONE BILLION DOLLARS PER
YEAR TO CONDEMN PRIVATE PROPERTY. No one is safe. Eminent Domain will be
rampant;
-----Environmental law firms receive grant money so they can sue YOU into
bankruptcy;
-----Extremists gain $60 million dollars per year to train an ARMY of
investigators who will trespass on your land to LOCATE AND POLICE
ENDANGERED SPECIES;
-----ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVISTS clamor for - you guessed it - money money
money - to reintroduce wolves that kill livestock and run cattle ranchers,
farmers, inholders and landowners off their land;
-----CARA would provide billions of dollars over fifteen years for
government agents to condemn private property and then turn it into
wilderness - no access, no people;
-----CARA funds SHUTTING DOWN RECREATIONAL AND COMMERCIAL ACCESS to
the federal lands by making more lands available for more wilderness
designations like President Clinton has done;
-----"Non-government organizations" (NGOs) win funding to draw up UNITED
NATIONS Biosphere Reserves, override national sovereignty and eliminate
private property rights;
-----CARA will fund new UN Biosphere Reserves and UN World Heritage Sites;
-----Lands cut off by Forest Service Roadless Rule will become targets for
CARA as well;
-----CARA helps make more LANDS OFF-LIMITS TO ENERGY EXPLORATION AND
DEVELOPMENT;
-----All lands with Endangered Species will be targets of land acquisition
- there will be no limit;
-----Green groups will seek to designate hundreds of areas of private land
as new Federal areas;
-----Much of the MONEY WILL GO TO THE NATURE CONSERVANCY and other
giant green land trusts;
-----HUNTERS AND SPORTSMEN WILL LOSE ACCESS to acquired lands;
-----Inholder families are specifically targeted in the new bills;
-----Hundreds of small communities in existing Federal areas will be wiped
off the map;
-----Land acquisition has always been used as a WEAPON TO REGULATE AND
CONTROL PRIVATE LANDOWNERS;
-----LAND ACQUISITION DRIVES AWAY EMPLOYERS The community and its
future are left in doubt;
-----CARA (HR.701) will make it more difficult to build homes and
businesses in rural areas;
-----NO PRIVATE PROPERTY WILL BE SAFE with these funds available.
FARMERS WILL BE ESPECIALLY HARD HIT;
-----The Federal agencies should take care of what they have before buying
more land;
-----Billions of dollars of private land will be TAKEN OFF THE TAX ROLLS
forcing local taxes up;
-----Congressional Appropriations Committee estimates the FEDERAL AGENCIES
ARE $12 BILLION BEHIND IN DEFERRED MAINTENANCE. Any money should go for
maintenance, not land acquisition; and
-----There should be no net loss of private land in America.
STOP CARA, THE CONDEMNATION AND RELOCATION ACT
SAY NO TO THE GIANT LAND GRAB
SAY NO TO LAND CONFISCATION!!
WHAT YOU SHOULD DO IMMEDIATELY!!
--1. CALL YOUR CONGRESSMAN at the Capitol Switchboard at (202) 225-3121
to oppose CARA. There is a temporary FREE NUMBER of (800) 648-3516. URGE
THEM TO VOTE NO on CARA. NO massive trust fund! NO land grabs!
URGE HIM TO ASK FOR FIELD HEARINGS ON CARA IN YOUR AREA. Ask if
he or she has signed up to sponsor CARA. If so, ask that he or she remove
their name. Congressman JC WATTS of Oklahoma just dropped his
co-sponsorship.
--2. WRITE YOUR CONGRESSMAN. A simple one page letter using two or three
of the reasons to oppose CARA we have listed above. Put them in your own
words. BE SURE TO ASK FOR FIELD HEARINGS. Send your letter to:
Honorable: ________ US House of Representatives, Washington, DC 20515.
--3. FAX YOUR CONGRESSMAN. Get and keep the fax number of your Congre
ssman. If you don't have it, ask for it when you call. FAX your letter to
your Congressman and ask that your letter be submitted for the official
hearing record of the hearing on June 20th. ASK FOR LOCAL FIELD
HEARINGS SO THAT YOU CAN TESTIFY.
--4. YOUR CONGRESSMAN IS HOME UNTIL JUNE 4th. He or she may be
holding town meetings to meet with you. It is very important that you
call his office to find out where they will be. Call their office in
Washington, DC or their local office. Get their schedule. Go to the
meeting. Alert at least five friends.
--5. HERE IS THE NEW HOUSE RESOURCES COMMITTEE LIST. Check to see
if your Congressman is on it. If he is, YOU MUST NOT FAIL to write and
call him. If your Congressman is not on the committee list, it is still
vital that you urge him to oppose CARA and ask for LOCAL FIELD HEARINGS.
RESOURCES COMMITTEE LIST -- 107th Congress (Save this list)
Republicans:
James Hansen (UT) Chairman
Don Young (AK)
Billy Tauzin (LA)
Jim Saxton (NJ)
Elton Gallegly (CA)
John Duncan (TN)
Joel Hefley (CO)
Wayne Gilchrest (MD)
Ken Calvert (CA)
Scott McInnis (CO)
Richard Pombo (CA)
Barbara Cubin (WY)
George Radanovich (CA)
Walter Jones JR (NC)
William Thornberry (TX)
Chris Channon (UT)
John Peterson (PA)
Bob Schaffer (CO)
James Gibbons (NV)
Mark Souder (IN)
Greg Walden (OR)
Mike Simpson (ID)
Thomas Tancredo (CO)
CL Otter (ID)
Thomas Osborne (NE)
Jeff Flake (AZ)
Dennis Rehberg (MT)
Democrats:
Nick Rahall II (WV) (Ranking Minority Member)
George Miller (CA)
Edward Markey (MA)
Dale Kildee (MI)
Peter DeFazio (OR)
Eni F. H. Faleomavaega, Delegate -AS
Neil Abercrombie (HI)
Solomon Ortiz (TX)
Frank Pallone (NJ)
Calvin Dooley (CA)
Robert Underwood, Delegate - Guam
Adam Smith (WA)
Donna Christian-Christensen, Delegate - Virgin Islands
Ron Kind (WI)
Jay Inslee (WA)
Grace Napolitano (CA)
Tom Udall (NM)
Mark Udall (CO)
Rush Hold (NJ)
James McGovern (MA)
Anibal Acevedo-Vila-Res. Comm. - PR
Hilda Solis (CA)
Brad Carson (OK)
Betty McCollum (MN)
IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO FORWARD THIS MESSAGE TO AT LEAST FIVE OTHER
PEOPLE - YOUR WHOLE LIST IF POSSIBLE.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *NOTE: In accordance with
Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or
payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this
information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more
information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
To be removed from future mailings just reply with REMOVE in the subject
line.
24470 From: Scott Kruize <osmtj@y...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 2:33pm
Subject: RE: Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
I like to carry FRS radios if I want to do some side chatting. They are cheap and the range is much better than CB. I still use the CB as my primary contact with the group. You can buy a pair of FRS radios at Costco or Sams for around $60. I bought 3 Motorolas from Costco. The first 2 were $59 each but the last one I bought the price had dropped to $39. They also work great if there are some new members without a CB. I like to loan them out so they don't feel isolated.
Scott
Stu Olson wrote:
Michael,
Hopefully, only a single person will be chattering at one time, else it will be most difficult to distinguish who is saying what. ;)
Having been a ham radio operator for over 25 years, I might suggest one ot two things that could help.
#1. Only one person talk at a time (pretty easy to handle that).
#2. Keep your transmission fairly short.
#3. Let the channel go dead for a couple of seconds before responding to a question or comment. This gives anyone a chance to jump in with that "important trail situation" comment that we all will benefit from.
#4. Try to remember #2 and #3.
In my opinion, having a trail channel and a chat channel is next to worthless. For instance, I want to ask you a question about the fork in the trail. I call you but you don't answer. So....you must be on the other channel. I switch to the other channel and find you exchanging suspension lift instructions with a friend.....well....what have we gained now? You are busy talking to someone else and that "trail situation" comment can not be asked.
Now....if someone wants to switch over to another channel for some reason to carry on a sidebar conversation with another driver....it only takes a second to announce that (make use of #3 to make that happen).
Did I mention trying to follow #2 and #3?
Stu
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Earls [mailto:michael@cerkit.com]
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 12:22 AM
To: AZ Virtual Jeep Club List (E-mail)
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
What about situations on the trail that require some careful attention? If everyone is chattering, don't we miss some of the important things like "Don't get out of the Jeep there, I just saw a 20 ft rattlesnake"... or "the right line will take you down a deep chasm into a giant bottomless pit, I wish we had seen it..."?
Anyway, maybe we should designate a "chat" channel, and a trail channel. I read quite a bit about Jeep modifications on this mailing list.
Or maybe that's a silly idea.
Michael Earls
-----Original Message-----
From: Stu Olson [mailto:solson8@qwest.net]
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 10:43 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
Donna commented that she missed the normal "banter" that she is use to hearing. Of course, she is thinking mostly about last month's Moab run.....which was almost a non-stop radio fest, so to speak. Everybody had their turn in the barrel and a person's action on one obstacle would carry over into the jokes for several days to come.
I enjoyed our conversation last night about underside mods.....but you are right....it was pretty quiet on the radio. Must have had something to do with not knowing about 50% of the people. Hopefully that will change as the summer runs progress!
Stu
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Kruize [mailto:osmtj@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 10:23 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
Stu,
I agree with everything you've said here. I also want to note that it weems on most runs that a few of us chat on the CB, but most people are rather quiet. Some of the most fun I've had on the trail has been some of the wacky conversations I've shared with other Jeepers on the trail. Its a great way to poke some (healthy) fun at each other ;) Speak up people and have some fun. Don't be afraid to join in. Stu only bites at midnight...
Scott
Stu Olson wrote:
James....you hit it right on the head.
Pick up the CB and ask the person behind you to drop back if the lights are
too bright. Simple enough thing to do and no one should take offense at
that. Oops....don't have a CB? Better go get one....do yourself and the
rest of the folks you are running with a favor. ;)
What can become a problem is being spread out over a long distance (when you
have as many as we did last night) and you get into some areas where several
trails converge and split up.....then hoping that everyone takes the correct
turn. Sure, you should never lose sight of the person behind you....but
then this entire discussion is kind of about wanting to lose sight of that
person so you don't have his headlights in your mirror. (great for the day
runs....stinks for night runs) There were many times last night where I
could have easily taken a turn, not announced it on the radio, and no one
would have had a clue which way I went.
The best thing to do is get on the radio and speak up when there is a
problem, question, etc.
Stu
-----Original Message-----
From: James Towle [mailto:James.Towle@asu.edu]
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 7:50 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
I guess a question I would pose is: how close is too close? I felt
like I was keeping a safe distance from who I was following last
night but, maybe the person in front of me didn't feel like it was
safe. My problem, if I have one, of following to close might stem
from going over rocks and focusing on the people in front of me and
their line(s). I was, though, very mindful of my lights being in
others mirrors. The factory fog lights plus the rock lights seem to
do a good job of lighting the trail, when you are moving slow.
Hopefully the people in this club can say something nicely if they
think the person behind them, or anybody else, is putting them, or
anybody else, at risk and the proper response will follow. I think we
are adults.
--James
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Stu Olson" wrote:
> I tried using my rock lights last night as trail lights, and for
me, they
> don't project enough light ahead of the vehicle. (Since I was
leading, I
> wasn't worried about shining them on anyone) ;) They do an awesome
job of
> lighting up the immediate vacinity around and under the vehicle
(great for
> the spotter to see what you are rolling over). There wasn't much
(if any)
> moon last night so no help from that source.
>
> Since I have a pair of factory fogs which have a very thin (in the
vertical
> plane) beam, I'm going to angle them down some and rely on them for
the
> trail.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: amstaff@e... [mailto:amstaff@e...]
> Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 6:42 PM
> To: az_vjc@y...
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
>
>
> Larry makes a valid point. Now that the
> night run season is upon us, it would be a
> good time to invest about $40 in a set of
> rock lights. There's very useful on the trail
> and you won't blind the poor schmoe in fron
> of you.
> Dion
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., jeeperaz@q... wrote:
> > Not here to preach but to inform some that might not know
better....
> >
> > Spacing on the trail:
> >
> > On non-technical trails there is no reason to follow 5ft behind
the
> > person in front of you. Especially on night runs where your
> > headlights are blinding your fellow club member. Of course things
are
> > going to get bunched up at times but we get enough bumper to
bumper
> > on our daily commutes.... no reason to have it on the trail.
> >
> > This goes for hills climbs/decents as well. A number of times
during
> > the past few weeks I've seen someone start up or down a
challenging
> > hill before the person in front of them has made it out of harms
way.
> >
> > Keep your distance.... its not a race to the finish line!
> >
> >
> > Hope everyone enjoys the last bit of the holiday weekend.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > LarryM
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions $2 Million Sweepstakes - Got something to sell?
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions $2 Million Sweepstakes - Got something to sell?
24471 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 2:39pm
Subject: [TR] Trip Report - DuPont Cabin - Saturday, May 26, 2001
Hello All,
This is an automated message from the website, please do not reply to it!
Blake Shepherd lead a trail run Saturday, May 26, 2001 across DuPont Cabin
This was a good trip. Those who attended where Jim F. (STK YJ), Rick and Vanda (XJ), Heather (TJ), Aaron and Michelle (TJ), Randy and Christine (YJ) and myself in the CJ5. We met up at Dennys on HWY 87 at 7 AM and left around 8:30. Jim F. had the trail mapped out on his GPS, so he led the run. The trail to the Dupont Cabin is mostly a graded dirt road. Only the last mile or so is a 3.0 trail with no real obstacles. This was one of Heathers first runs in her stock TJ with 31s. She made it through the tiny obstacles with some good spotting from Jim F. Once about halfway to the cabin, Jims GPS showed that we were there. Thanks go to Doug B. for giving Jim verbal directions. The last part of the trail is a long, winding uphill climb. The temperature was approaching 100 degrees. Jim, Rick and I all ran a little hot due to the slow and steep ascent. Heather and Aarons newer TJs had no problems. We arrived to the Dupont cabin around 2 PM. Randy was running behind. He finally got there well after dark. After that, we just sat around and enjoyed the cool night and a few suds. The following morning Heather, Aaron and I packed up camp and left around noon. Everyone else stayed around for one more night of cool weather. On the way back to Punkin Center, I had some massive steering problems. Come to find out, I bent my tie rod way up. I can only imaging that it got bent while I was crossing a log just past the Dupont cabin. I have always heard of using a winch cable to wrap around the front axle to pull the tie rod straight. This wouldnt work in my case. I ended up using Heathers stock TJ tire jack to push the tie rod straight using my oil pan has a resting point. It worked great! We aired up at Jakes gas station and headed out. Thanks for all who attended to make this a great club camping trip.
Blake
80CJ5
01 TJ
Click Here for more Information and to View Pictures
Thank You,
- The AzVJC Website
24472 From: <cmandrick@h...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 4:50pm
Subject: Re: Liberty is here!!!
Yeah, the two-piece door sucks, along with the super-articulation
IFS... I wonder how long until after-market supports the Liberty,
like lift kits, bumpers, etc. All-in-all, I would rather drive a
Liberty than a RAV or Escape or any of the other pretend 4x4's...
Chris M
--- In az_vjc@y..., linda luik <minihummer@w...> wrote:
> Just drove by Darner's (had to work this morning). There's a pretty
> white Liberty in the lot. $23k price tag. The rear door looks to be
> 2-piece. You have to open the window before you can swing out the
lower
> door -- Yuk! Other than that it looks pretty nice.
>
> Linda
24473 From: <fmw@q...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 5:28pm
Subject: Re: Re: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
Wow, wayyyy to many urban myths, legends here.. Let's try and set all this
straight.. I've been involved with venomous snakes (research) for many, many
years, going back to the late 1960's. I've known Jude McNally, directory of
the Az Poison Control Center, here in Tucson for years, and have known and
worked with (field research), Dave Hardy MD (rt), for the better part of 10
years.. Dave is one of the best-known snakebite experts here in the state..
My research has included things like radiotelemetery of 3 species of
protected rattlesnakes and another 3 species of non-protected rattlesnakes,
here in SE Arizona, doing research with and permitted through AZ Game and
Fish, ASU, U of Calif. Berk., and Cornell University, with Dave Hardy MD,
and Harry Greene. Some of the ongoing research with one species of protected
rattlesnake here is SE Arizona has just been quoted and written up by Andy
Holycross (ASU) and published (Copeia, 2001(2), pp. 473-481).
Now, let's get to the facts.
- There are no such things as "Coral Snake nest".. They wouldn't be killing
cats. Look to coyotes, rattlesnakes, etc. Certainly not a "nest of Coral
Snakes".
- The Wyeth Serum (polyvalent) "never" was designed to treat any type of
Coral Snakes bites. Wyeth makes a serum specific for Coral Snakes (Eastern
and Texa Coral Snakes only). So the statement:"...The bites of both pit
vipers and coral snakes can be effectively treated
>with antivenin....",
does *not* imply that the same antivenin works, only that they bites *can*
be treated by antivenin.
- There is no antivenin for the Coral Snake that occurs here in Az. None is
needed. Bites are extremely rare and there have been no deaths or even any
serious symptoms.. It's almost impossible to get bite by one, unless you are
handling it, even then they are very unlikely to bite.
- 99.999% of the people here in Az. can not identify a Mojave Rattlesnake
from any other type, so no different field treatment (as in a compression
bandage) should be used for any snakebite here.
- The "neurotoxic" (note in quotes) factor in the Mojave Rattlesnake venom
(Mojave toxin A), *only* occurs in some SE AZ populations. Though it has
demostrated neurotoxic activity in lab experiments, and maybe some animal
bites, it has not demostrated any classic neurotoxic activity in human
victims, such as paralysis, labored breathing, etc.. It does produce rapid
shock, in human victims..
- Serum is generally not available outside of hospitals, as it's use carries
a danger and it really needs to be used IV.
- If a paramedic is closer than a hospital, go there.. They can stabilize a
victim for transport.
- The Extractor is no longer recommended for field treatment (Dave Hardy
MD), as it hasn't been shown to help, and there have been some questionable
damage (possible) from it's use.
- Other than calming and reassuring the victim, *no* field treatment should
be attempted.. Simply transport the victim to a hospital as quickly and
safely as possible.
- Generally it's wise *not* to attempt to kill the snake for ID.. Many bites
in this state occur this way and from "dead" snakes, that can bite,
reflexively for some time.
- There are around several hundred snakebites each year here (deaths are
extremely rear, the last one being several years ago, and it was from an
"illegal" snake and the actually cause of death was a massive allergic
reaction to the venom, brought on by previous bites.. It's virtually
impossible for this to happen on the first bite), and somewhere around 75%
of the bites, are what we term, illegitimate bites.. This is defined as:
- The person sees the snake
- The person normally recognizes for what it is (venomous).
- The person attempts to "mess" with the snake (kill it, catch it, etc).
- The vast majority of these illegitimate bites occur in males, and a high
percentage of those involve the recent consumption of alcohol or drugs.
There is hardly any reason to mess with a venomous snake.. There is hardly
any reason to attempt to kill a venomous snake.. Left to it's own, it *will"
leave. BTW, rattlesnakes do *not* have to rattle before they bite. They,
generally, can only strike about 1/3 of their length.
A few simple rules, will help avoid snakebite problems:
- Leave all snakes alone.. Never attempt to kill or otherwise mess with one.
- Always step on rocks, fallen trees first and look on the other side. Never
simply step over them.
- When collecting fire wood, etc. be very careful where you place you hands.
- Never reach under rocks, boards, logs.. If you want to turn them, do it
without reaching under them.
- Be very careful and watch your feet and hands around caves and mines.
Snakes are "cold blooded" and can not really regulate their body
temperature, so during the heat of the day, they will do the same as you,
seek shade :)
- When climbing, make sure you have a clear view of where you are about to
reach.
- When in brush or rocks, watch where you sit.
- If you do come across a snake, leave it alone.
:)
Fred
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This brought back memories of when I lived in Phoenix. My next door
neighbor brought home some dead cactus skeletons for her garden. One
contained a coral snake nest. My neighbor had about 30 cats (phew!
stinky in the summer) and suddenly the cats started dying. No one could
figure out what was going on until one day I found a baby coral snake,
about 4 inches long, by my back door. Fortunately none of the
neighborhood kids found any of them.
Linda
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
At 03:24 PM 5/28/1 -0500, Garrison St.Clair wrote:
>First, I did not jump to conclusions. You had recommended medicating a
>snakebite victim. This is incorrect advice, regardless of the type of
>snake. I therefore pointed out this error and provided a protocol for
>treating snakebites written by a physician for use by non-medical personnel.
>
>I think I took the correct action in point this and I believe it would be
>prudent for all non-medical personnel to follow the posted protocol - unless
>ADVISED OTHERWISE by a PHYSICIAN.
>
>FYI, the earlier of the two available antivenin, the Wyeth Serum (equine
>base) is used to treat Coral Snake bites as well as those of Pit Vipers.
>The later antivenin CroFAB (sheep based) is used only for pit vipers, though
>it is considered effective on Mojave Rattler's which are neurotoxic.
>
>Here is a citation for you:
>
>"...Though coral snakebites are rare in the United States--only about 25 a
>year by some estimates--the snake's neurotoxic venom can be dangerous. A
>1987 study in the Journal of the American Medical Association examined 39
>victims of coral snakebites. There were no deaths, but several victims
>experienced respiratory paralysis, one of the hazards of neurotoxic
>venom...."
>
>"...The bites of both pit vipers and coral snakes can be effectively treated
>with antivenin...."
>
>[Source: John Henkel, FDA]
>
>If anyone is interested in knowing more, I'll be glad to point you in the
>right direction. but fort the purpose of most trail rides, the protocol
>previously posted will suffice.
>
>Gunslinger
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <jeeperaz@q...>
>To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Monday, 28 May, 2001 14:31
>Subject: [az_vjc] Re: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
>
>
>> That was me who mentioned Benedryl and I never said anything about
>> snakes bites in general. If you would have read rather than jumping
>> to conclusions you would have seen where it was specific to Coral
>> Snakes. BTW, there is no anti-venom available for the subspecies of
>> Coral Snake thats found in Arizona (Micruroides euryxanthes). It's a
>> relatively innocuous snake and no deaths have been attributed to its
>> bite.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Garrison St.Clair" <gunslinger@i...> wrote:
>> > Last week someone posted that you should carry Benedryl in case of
>> snake
>> > bite. This information is absolutely incorrect.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
24474 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 5:29pm
Subject: FS: Warn winch and mount
For Sale:
Warn X8000i
Only used twice. Very good condition
Never submerged
No fairlead
$500
Warn winch mount for a 97 TJ
According to Warn, will only work on the 97 models for some reason
No fairlead
$90
As usual, you are welcome to make me an offer. I might accept it.
ChrisK
24475 From: Brent Lizakowski <brent_lizakowski@h...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 5:29pm
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
>
> There is also a 24/7 Snakebite telephone number in AZ: 520-626-6016
>
> Gunslinger
Thanks for the number and the info, it's being printed up and going
in my 1st aid kit.
Brent
24476 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 5:35pm
Subject: Re: Re: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
Wow! Really good information. Thanks.
ChrisK
> From: fmw@q...
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
>
> Wow, wayyyy to many urban myths, legends here.. Let's try and set all this
> straight.. I've been involved with venomous snakes (research) for many, many
> years, going back to the late 1960's. I've known Jude McNally, directory of
> the Az Poison Control Center, here in Tucson for years, and have known and
> worked with (field research), Dave Hardy MD (rt), for the better part of 10
> years.. Dave is one of the best-known snakebite experts here in the state..
> My research has included things like radiotelemetery of 3 species of
> protected rattlesnakes and another 3 species of non-protected rattlesnakes,
> here in SE Arizona, doing research with and permitted through AZ Game and
> Fish, ASU, U of Calif. Berk., and Cornell University, with Dave Hardy MD,
> and Harry Greene. Some of the ongoing research with one species of protected
> rattlesnake here is SE Arizona has just been quoted and written up by Andy
> Holycross (ASU) and published (Copeia, 2001(2), pp. 473-481).
> Now, let's get to the facts.
> - There are no such things as "Coral Snake nest".. They wouldn't be killing
> cats. Look to coyotes, rattlesnakes, etc. Certainly not a "nest of Coral
> Snakes".
> - The Wyeth Serum (polyvalent) "never" was designed to treat any type of
> Coral Snakes bites. Wyeth makes a serum specific for Coral Snakes (Eastern
> and Texa Coral Snakes only). So the statement:"...The bites of both pit
> vipers and coral snakes can be effectively treated
>> with antivenin....",
> does *not* imply that the same antivenin works, only that they bites *can*
> be treated by antivenin.
> - There is no antivenin for the Coral Snake that occurs here in Az. None is
> needed. Bites are extremely rare and there have been no deaths or even any
> serious symptoms.. It's almost impossible to get bite by one, unless you are
> handling it, even then they are very unlikely to bite.
> - 99.999% of the people here in Az. can not identify a Mojave Rattlesnake
> from any other type, so no different field treatment (as in a compression
> bandage) should be used for any snakebite here.
> - The "neurotoxic" (note in quotes) factor in the Mojave Rattlesnake venom
> (Mojave toxin A), *only* occurs in some SE AZ populations. Though it has
> demostrated neurotoxic activity in lab experiments, and maybe some animal
> bites, it has not demostrated any classic neurotoxic activity in human
> victims, such as paralysis, labored breathing, etc.. It does produce rapid
> shock, in human victims..
> - Serum is generally not available outside of hospitals, as it's use carries
> a danger and it really needs to be used IV.
> - If a paramedic is closer than a hospital, go there.. They can stabilize a
> victim for transport.
> - The Extractor is no longer recommended for field treatment (Dave Hardy
> MD), as it hasn't been shown to help, and there have been some questionable
> damage (possible) from it's use.
> - Other than calming and reassuring the victim, *no* field treatment should
> be attempted.. Simply transport the victim to a hospital as quickly and
> safely as possible.
> - Generally it's wise *not* to attempt to kill the snake for ID.. Many bites
> in this state occur this way and from "dead" snakes, that can bite,
> reflexively for some time.
> - There are around several hundred snakebites each year here (deaths are
> extremely rear, the last one being several years ago, and it was from an
> "illegal" snake and the actually cause of death was a massive allergic
> reaction to the venom, brought on by previous bites.. It's virtually
> impossible for this to happen on the first bite), and somewhere around 75%
> of the bites, are what we term, illegitimate bites.. This is defined as:
> - The person sees the snake
> - The person normally recognizes for what it is (venomous).
> - The person attempts to "mess" with the snake (kill it, catch it, etc).
> - The vast majority of these illegitimate bites occur in males, and a high
> percentage of those involve the recent consumption of alcohol or drugs.
>
> There is hardly any reason to mess with a venomous snake.. There is hardly
> any reason to attempt to kill a venomous snake.. Left to it's own, it *will"
> leave. BTW, rattlesnakes do *not* have to rattle before they bite. They,
> generally, can only strike about 1/3 of their length.
>
> A few simple rules, will help avoid snakebite problems:
> - Leave all snakes alone.. Never attempt to kill or otherwise mess with one.
> - Always step on rocks, fallen trees first and look on the other side. Never
> simply step over them.
> - When collecting fire wood, etc. be very careful where you place you hands.
> - Never reach under rocks, boards, logs.. If you want to turn them, do it
> without reaching under them.
> - Be very careful and watch your feet and hands around caves and mines.
> Snakes are "cold blooded" and can not really regulate their body
> temperature, so during the heat of the day, they will do the same as you,
> seek shade :)
> - When climbing, make sure you have a clear view of where you are about to
> reach.
> - When in brush or rocks, watch where you sit.
> - If you do come across a snake, leave it alone.
>
>
> :)
> Fred
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> This brought back memories of when I lived in Phoenix. My next door
> neighbor brought home some dead cactus skeletons for her garden. One
> contained a coral snake nest. My neighbor had about 30 cats (phew!
> stinky in the summer) and suddenly the cats started dying. No one could
> figure out what was going on until one day I found a baby coral snake,
> about 4 inches long, by my back door. Fortunately none of the
> neighborhood kids found any of them.
>
> Linda
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> At 03:24 PM 5/28/1 -0500, Garrison St.Clair wrote:
>> First, I did not jump to conclusions. You had recommended medicating a
>> snakebite victim. This is incorrect advice, regardless of the type of
>> snake. I therefore pointed out this error and provided a protocol for
>> treating snakebites written by a physician for use by non-medical personnel.
>>
>> I think I took the correct action in point this and I believe it would be
>> prudent for all non-medical personnel to follow the posted protocol - unless
>> ADVISED OTHERWISE by a PHYSICIAN.
>>
>> FYI, the earlier of the two available antivenin, the Wyeth Serum (equine
>> base) is used to treat Coral Snake bites as well as those of Pit Vipers.
>> The later antivenin CroFAB (sheep based) is used only for pit vipers, though
>> it is considered effective on Mojave Rattler's which are neurotoxic.
>>
>> Here is a citation for you:
>>
>> "...Though coral snakebites are rare in the United States--only about 25 a
>> year by some estimates--the snake's neurotoxic venom can be dangerous. A
>> 1987 study in the Journal of the American Medical Association examined 39
>> victims of coral snakebites. There were no deaths, but several victims
>> experienced respiratory paralysis, one of the hazards of neurotoxic
>> venom...."
>>
>> "...The bites of both pit vipers and coral snakes can be effectively treated
>> with antivenin...."
>>
>> [Source: John Henkel, FDA]
>>
>> If anyone is interested in knowing more, I'll be glad to point you in the
>> right direction. but fort the purpose of most trail rides, the protocol
>> previously posted will suffice.
>>
>> Gunslinger
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <jeeperaz@q...>
>> To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Monday, 28 May, 2001 14:31
>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
>>
>>
>>> That was me who mentioned Benedryl and I never said anything about
>>> snakes bites in general. If you would have read rather than jumping
>>> to conclusions you would have seen where it was specific to Coral
>>> Snakes. BTW, there is no anti-venom available for the subspecies of
>>> Coral Snake thats found in Arizona (Micruroides euryxanthes). It's a
>>> relatively innocuous snake and no deaths have been attributed to its
>>> bite.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Garrison St.Clair" <gunslinger@i...> wrote:
>>>> Last week someone posted that you should carry Benedryl in case of
>>> snake
>>>> bite. This information is absolutely incorrect.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
24477 From: Brent Lizakowski <brent_lizakowski@h...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 5:45pm
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
Add to the list those who have seen the Crocodile Hunter one too many
times as well!
;)
Brent
--- In az_vjc@y..., fmw@q... wrote:
> - The person attempts to "mess" with the snake (kill it, catch it,
etc).
> - The vast majority of these illegitimate bites occur in males, and
a high
> percentage of those involve the recent consumption of alcohol or
drugs.
24478 From: Michael Earls <michael@c...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 6:37pm
Subject: RE: Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
My wife and I carry the FRS 60s for ourselves when we get separated. I think those are the best electronic device we have purchased (aside from the GPS) this year. I'd highly recommend them to any couple. We use them when out "shopping" so we can each go our separate ways and meet up when we're ready to go or we want the other to join us.
They're even better when we take side treks away from the Jeep.
Michael and Laurie Earls
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Kruize [mailto:osmtj@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 2:33 PM
To: Stu Olson; Michael Earls; AZ Virtual Jeep Club List (E-mail)
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
I like to carry FRS radios if I want to do some side chatting. They are cheap and the range is much better than CB. I still use the CB as my primary contact with the group. You can buy a pair of FRS radios at Costco or Sams for around $60. I bought 3 Motorolas from Costco. The first 2 were $59 each but the last one I bought the price had dropped to $39. They also work great if there are some new members without a CB. I like to loan them out so they don't feel isolated.
Scott
Stu Olson wrote:
Michael,
Hopefully, only a single person will be chattering at one time, else it will be most difficult to distinguish who is saying what. ;)
Having been a ham radio operator for over 25 years, I might suggest one ot two things that could help.
#1. Only one person talk at a time (pretty easy to handle that).
#2. Keep your transmission fairly short.
#3. Let the channel go dead for a couple of seconds before responding to a question or comment. This gives anyone a chance to jump in with that "important trail situation" comment that we all will benefit from.
#4. Try to remember #2 and #3.
In my opinion, having a trail channel and a chat channel is next to worthless. For instance, I want to ask you a question about the fork in the trail. I call you but you don't answer. So....you must be on the other channel. I switch to the other channel and find you exchanging suspension lift instructions with a friend.....well....what have we gained now? You are busy talking to someone else and that "trail situation" comment can not be asked.
Now....if someone wants to switch over to another channel for some reason to carry on a sidebar conversation with another driver....it only takes a second to announce that (make use of #3 to make that happen).
Did I mention trying to follow #2 and #3?
Stu
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Earls [mailto:michael@cerkit.com]
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 12:22 AM
To: AZ Virtual Jeep Club List (E-mail)
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
What about situations on the trail that require some careful attention? If everyone is chattering, don't we miss some of the important things like "Don't get out of the Jeep there, I just saw a 20 ft rattlesnake"... or "the right line will take you down a deep chasm into a giant bottomless pit, I wish we had seen it..."?
Anyway, maybe we should designate a "chat" channel, and a trail channel. I read quite a bit about Jeep modifications on this mailing list.
Or maybe that's a silly idea.
Michael Earls
-----Original Message-----
From: Stu Olson [mailto:solson8@qwest.net]
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 10:43 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
Donna commented that she missed the normal "banter" that she is use to hearing. Of course, she is thinking mostly about last month's Moab run.....which was almost a non-stop radio fest, so to speak. Everybody had their turn in the barrel and a person's action on one obstacle would carry over into the jokes for several days to come.
I enjoyed our conversation last night about underside mods.....but you are right....it was pretty quiet on the radio. Must have had something to do with not knowing about 50% of the people. Hopefully that will change as the summer runs progress!
Stu
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Kruize [mailto:osmtj@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 10:23 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
Stu,
I agree with everything you've said here. I also want to note that it weems on most runs that a few of us chat on the CB, but most people are rather quiet. Some of the most fun I've had on the trail has been some of the wacky conversations I've shared with other Jeepers on the trail. Its a great way to poke some (healthy) fun at each other ;) Speak up people and have some fun. Don't be afraid to join in. Stu only bites at midnight...
Scott
Stu Olson wrote:
James....you hit it right on the head.
Pick up the CB and ask the person behind you to drop back if the lights are
too bright. Simple enough thing to do and no one should take offense at
that. Oops....don't have a CB? Better go get one....do yourself and the
rest of the folks you are running with a favor. ;)
What can become a problem is being spread out over a long distance (when you
have as many as we did last night) and you get into some areas where several
trails converge and split up.....then hoping that everyone takes the correct
turn. Sure, you should never lose sight of the person behind you....but
then this entire discussion is kind of about wanting to lose sight of that
person so you don't have his headlights in your mirror. (great for the day
runs....stinks for night runs) There were many times last night where I
could have easily taken a turn, not announced it on the radio, and no one
would have had a clue which way I went.
The best thing to do is get on the radio and speak up when there is a
problem, question, etc.
Stu
-----Original Message-----
From: James Towle [mailto:James.Towle@asu.edu]
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 7:50 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
I guess a question I would pose is: how close is too close? I felt
like I was keeping a safe distance from who I was following last
night but, maybe the person in front of me didn't feel like it was
safe. My problem, if I have one, of following to close might stem
from going over rocks and focusing on the people in front of me and
their line(s). I was, though, very mindful of my lights being in
others mirrors. The factory fog lights plus the rock lights seem to
do a good job of lighting the trail, when you are moving slow.
Hopefully the people in this club can say something nicely if they
think the person behind them, or anybody else, is putting them, or
anybody else, at risk and the proper response will follow. I think we
are adults.
--James
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Stu Olson" wrote:
> I tried using my rock lights last night as trail lights, and for
me, they
> don't project enough light ahead of the vehicle. (Since I was
leading, I
> wasn't worried about shining them on anyone) ;) They do an awesome
job of
> lighting up the immediate vacinity around and under the vehicle
(great for
> the spotter to see what you are rolling over). There wasn't much
(if any)
> moon last night so no help from that source.
>
> Since I have a pair of factory fogs which have a very thin (in the
vertical
> plane) beam, I'm going to angle them down some and rely on them for
the
> trail.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: amstaff@e... [mailto:amstaff@e...]
> Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 6:42 PM
> To: az_vjc@y...
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
>
>
> Larry makes a valid point. Now that the
> night run season is upon us, it would be a
> good time to invest about $40 in a set of
> rock lights. There's very useful on the trail
> and you won't blind the poor schmoe in fron
> of you.
> Dion
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., jeeperaz@q... wrote:
> > Not here to preach but to inform some that might not know
better....
> >
> > Spacing on the trail:
> >
> > On non-technical trails there is no reason to follow 5ft behind
the
> > person in front of you. Especially on night runs where your
> > headlights are blinding your fellow club member. Of course things
are
> > going to get bunched up at times but we get enough bumper to
bumper
> > on our daily commutes.... no reason to have it on the trail.
> >
> > This goes for hills climbs/decents as well. A number of times
during
> > the past few weeks I've seen someone start up or down a
challenging
> > hill before the person in front of them has made it out of harms
way.
> >
> > Keep your distance.... its not a race to the finish line!
> >
> >
> > Hope everyone enjoys the last bit of the holiday weekend.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > LarryM
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions $2 Million Sweepstakes - Got something to sell?
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions $2 Million Sweepstakes - Got something to sell?
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
24454 From: Jon Loveless <jonloveless@m...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 4:55am
Subject: Re:Dana 35 axles
I believe that Superior does still make D35 axles. They now come as a kit called Super35D. It includes 2 new 30 spline axle sets and an integrated full Detroit locker. I put that on mine and I have run both Terminators, both Ajax, both Woodpeckers and Raw Deal among others - with 35's. It is strong but still carries the D35 shaft housings and dif - they now become the weak link. I don't expect to have any problems with the Superior and 35's but then no one does. I will change to something stronger some day. Maybe when I go to long arms ;-)
It just never stops, does it?
Jon
.
At 07:18 AM 5/28/2001 +0000, you wrote:
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 03:29:01 -0000
From: 97tj@team3.net
Subject: Dana 35 Thanks!
I want to thank everyone for the words of advice on the subject of
rear axles. When the time comes I will change out my humble Dana 35
for something bigger and better. But untill then I hope that I can
get many more years out of it. One question to help me acheave that.
Where can I get stronger axles? Superior no longer makes replacement
axles for Dana 35's. And I have heard some of you talk about a
cromoly axle. Thanks again for the words of advice.
Thane
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADVERTISEMENT
24455 From: linda luik <minihummer@w...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 6:45am
Subject: Chicago Trib article on 4-wheeling
Dora Fang posted this on the ZJ-list. I thought it was pretty neat.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/article/0,1051,SAV-0105270420,00.html
and its a really flattering perspective on responsible four wheeling -
hooray~!
Dora-ble
01 XJ solar yellow w/30s, 97 TJ 4"/1.25" lift w/35s
http://www.adventure4wd.com
Adventure 4WD (formerly known as Let's Go Jeepin)
4WD Training and Adventures
Parts and Recovery Gear Outfitters
================================================== ===
Subscription changes: http://lists.off-road.com/zj-list/
Searchable Archives are at: http://lists.off-road.com/zj-list/
Published by Off-Road.com - http://www.off-road.com
24456 From: Garrison St.Clair <gunslinger@i...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 9:07am
Subject: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
Last week someone posted that you should carry Benedryl in case of snake
bite. This information is absolutely incorrect. No medication should be
given by any untrained individual.
In the event of a bite by a venomous snake (or an unknown snake) the
following protocol should be followed. This protocol was written by a
Command Level Physician for use by non-medical personnel.
While I'm sure that many on this list have lots of field experience, reading
the below and keeping a copy in your vehicle cannot hurt. And protocols for
treating venomous snakebites have changed several times in recent years and
newer, safer, antivenin has been developed.
Be careful out there.
Gunslinger
*** North American Venomous Snakebite: Emergency First Aid ***
I. WHAT TO DO:
01. ALL venomous snakes
a). If a SAWYER EXTRACTOR is available and it is within THREE MINUTES of the
bite, apply the extractor and leave in place for 15 minutes.
b) Remove constrictive clothing, footwear, watch, and rings.
c) Rinse bite thoroughly, with fresh water, if possible for 30 seconds.
d) Disinfect bite area with gauze pad soaked with BETADINE, if possible.
* If you are absolutely certain that the offending snake is of the
"neurotoxic" variety (i.e. Coral Snake, Mojave Rattler) then, at this point,
use the Australian Pressure Bandage Technique as follows (if you are at all
not certain as to the type of snake, go directly to "e" below):
-Apply hard direct pressure with gauze pad over bite area
-Strap pad tightly in place with adhesive tape
-Wrap affected extremity with 2"-3" ACE elastic bandaging as tightly as
one would for a sprain
Regardless of the type of venomous snake, continue with the following:
e) Keep affected extremity positioned at or just below heart level, if
possible
f) Immobilize affected extremity; use a splint if possible.
g) Transport to medical attention as soon as possible.
h) Identify (and/or kill and bring to medical facility) the offending
species of snake ONLY if safe to do so.
Note: Most authorities do NOT recommend the Australian Pressure Bandage
Technique described above for envenomation by American snakes unless they
are neurotoxic whose effects are systemic with little local necrosis,
therefore preventing spread by this method makes sense. American snakes by
and large secrete a hemotologic toxin which causes severe local necrosis,
therefore limiting its spread my increase local tissue damage.
Immobilization and immediate transport are lifesaving. A proximal
constriction band applies with enough pressure to close off lymphatics may
be
useful but you REALLY have to know what you are doing to
apply it and monitor correctly.
WHAT NOT TO DO:
Don't eat or drink anything.
Don't engage in strenuous physical activity.
Don't cut or incise bite marks; do not apply oral suction to bite.
Don't take alcoholic beverage or any medication.
Don't delay seeking medical attention.
Don't apply cold or hot packs or a constrictive tourniquet.
Don't apply electric shock of any kind.
Do not remove dressings/elastic wrap until arrival at hospital.
IMPORTANT CONTACTS IN A SNAKEBITE EMERGENCY (Give This Information to Your
Medical Provider)
Antivenin:
Protherics OVINE TECHNOLOGY 1-800-231-0206 (This is the newer technologic.
Severe anaphylactic reactions almost unheard of)
Wyeth-Ayerst HORSE DERIVED 1-610-688-4400
Physician Consultants Accessible 718-430-6494
24457 From: James Towle <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 9:13am
Subject: Newtimes Responses
There are some responses to the article published "Rec Room," by the
Newtimes at:
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/issues/2001-05-24/letters.html
Some are interesting.
--James
24458 From: linda luik <minihummer@w...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 9:13am
Subject: Liberty is here!!!
Just drove by Darner's (had to work this morning). There's a pretty
white Liberty in the lot. $23k price tag. The rear door looks to be
2-piece. You have to open the window before you can swing out the lower
door -- Yuk! Other than that it looks pretty nice.
Linda
24459 From: Greg Mobley <gregorym85268@y...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 9:20am
Subject: Re: Re: Zippers
I would like to thank all that replied with help for my zipper problem I am going to be buy a case of Ivory soap
Thanks again Greg
Jeepguy@zombieweb.com wrote:
I just put some spray silicon on them yesterday... I just sprayed a
rag and rubbed the zipper so I didn't get overspray everywhere! It
seems to work pretty good so far... I also bought a cheap D ring from
Home Depot, and cliped it on my rear view mirror. When I go to mess
with my windows I clip the D ring on the fob so I have a nice big tab
to pull instead of those little fobs! -Rob
--- In az_vjc@y..., Greg Mobley wrote:
>
> Hey Gang
>
> I need some advice on what to put on zippers for my 2000TJ soft
top, windows side and rear to make them work easier.
>
> Opinions please.
>
> Thank you Greg
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions $2 Million Sweepstakes - Got something to sell?
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions $2 Million Sweepstakes - Got something to sell?
24460 From: Garrison St.Clair <gunslinger@i...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 9:48am
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
Linda,
If getting to a fire station, staffed by paramedics, is a time saver - then
yes. You might also want to check, in general, whether Paramedics in AZ have
access to antivenin. Also ask if they are using the newer type. Its not
all that well known yet - we were updated by some military med-types. The
new type is FAR less rife for complications.
Gunslinger
----- Original Message -----
From: "linda luik" <minihummer@w...>
To: "Garrison St.Clair" <gunslinger@i...>
Sent: Monday, 28 May, 2001 11:22
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
> In the case of a snake bite would it be prudent to get the patient to a
> fire station for faster treatment? Fire stations are more common than
> hospitals and the paramedic units are usually pretty well equipped.
>
> Linda
>
> "Garrison St.Clair" wrote:
> >
> > Last week someone posted that you should carry Benedryl in case of snake
> > bite. This information is absolutely incorrect. No medication should
be
> > given by any untrained individual.
> >
> > In the event of a bite by a venomous snake (or an unknown snake) the
> > following protocol should be followed. This protocol was written by a
> > Command Level Physician for use by non-medical personnel.
> >
> > While I'm sure that many on this list have lots of field experience,
reading
> > the below and keeping a copy in your vehicle cannot hurt. And protocols
for
> > treating venomous snakebites have changed several times in recent years
and
> > newer, safer, antivenin has been developed.
> >
> > Be careful out there.
> >
> > Gunslinger
> >
> > *** North American Venomous Snakebite: Emergency First Aid ***
> >
> > I. WHAT TO DO:
> >
> > 01. ALL venomous snakes
> >
> > a). If a SAWYER EXTRACTOR is available and it is within THREE MINUTES of
the
> > bite, apply the extractor and leave in place for 15 minutes.
> > b) Remove constrictive clothing, footwear, watch, and rings.
> > c) Rinse bite thoroughly, with fresh water, if possible for 30 seconds.
> > d) Disinfect bite area with gauze pad soaked with BETADINE, if
possible.
> >
> > * If you are absolutely certain that the offending snake is of the
> > "neurotoxic" variety (i.e. Coral Snake, Mojave Rattler) then, at this
point,
> > use the Australian Pressure Bandage Technique as follows (if you are at
all
> > not certain as to the type of snake, go directly to "e" below):
> >
> > -Apply hard direct pressure with gauze pad over bite area
> > -Strap pad tightly in place with adhesive tape
> > -Wrap affected extremity with 2"-3" ACE elastic bandaging as tightly as
> > one would for a sprain
> >
> > Regardless of the type of venomous snake, continue with the following:
> >
> > e) Keep affected extremity positioned at or just below heart level, if
> > possible
> > f) Immobilize affected extremity; use a splint if possible.
> > g) Transport to medical attention as soon as possible.
> > h) Identify (and/or kill and bring to medical facility) the offending
> > species of snake ONLY if safe to do so.
> >
> > Note: Most authorities do NOT recommend the Australian Pressure Bandage
> > Technique described above for envenomation by American snakes unless
they
> > are neurotoxic whose effects are systemic with little local necrosis,
> > therefore preventing spread by this method makes sense. American snakes
by
> > and large secrete a hemotologic toxin which causes severe local
necrosis,
> > therefore limiting its spread my increase local tissue damage.
> > Immobilization and immediate transport are lifesaving. A proximal
> > constriction band applies with enough pressure to close off lymphatics
may
> > be
> > useful but you REALLY have to know what you are doing to
> > apply it and monitor correctly.
> >
> > WHAT NOT TO DO:
> >
> > Don't eat or drink anything.
> > Don't engage in strenuous physical activity.
> > Don't cut or incise bite marks; do not apply oral suction to bite.
> > Don't take alcoholic beverage or any medication.
> > Don't delay seeking medical attention.
> > Don't apply cold or hot packs or a constrictive tourniquet.
> > Don't apply electric shock of any kind.
> > Do not remove dressings/elastic wrap until arrival at hospital.
> >
> > IMPORTANT CONTACTS IN A SNAKEBITE EMERGENCY (Give This Information to
Your
> > Medical Provider)
> >
> > Antivenin:
> > Protherics OVINE TECHNOLOGY 1-800-231-0206 (This is the newer
technologic.
> > Severe anaphylactic reactions almost unheard of)
> > Wyeth-Ayerst HORSE DERIVED 1-610-688-4400
> > Physician Consultants Accessible 718-430-6494
>
24461 From: Scott Kruize <osmtj@y...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 10:59am
Subject: Re: AZ Heat and my TJ
Mark,
This is my 3rd summer with my TJ and mine reached the red zone while idling earlier this week for the first time. I've never done anything to the cooling system so I'm going to replace the hoses and thermostat and do a flush and fill. The hoses look okay but when your talking about being on the trail it's better to just replace them every 2 years and carry the old ones as spares.
Good luck with yours. I hope both of our TJs run cooler very soon.
Scott
templar1@home.com wrote:
Saturday I was waiting in the drive thru line at In and out burger,
with my air running and as I moved my way through the line I noticed
my Water temp gauge climbed into the red, now it wasn't pegged but
yikes in the red? It's not even the middle of the summer yet and my
TJ running @ 245 degrees makes me a little nervous. (I immediately
shut off the air, rolled down the windows and turned the heat on full
blast to cool the motor off, which it did) I wouldn't imagine this is
normal for a TJ but maybe I am wrong. The only thing I can think of
is I bought this jeep brand new from a dealer in Indiana and perhaps
they put a thermostat more suited to the Midwest then the scorching
desert I live in. Should I just try a different thermostat or does
anyone else have any suggestions/advise?
-Mark
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions $2 Million Sweepstakes - Got something to sell?
24462 From: James Towle <James.Towle@a...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 11:07am
Subject: President's arrival
Hey, I just heard the president was arriving at 2:10PM, Williams
Gateway. Is anybody thinking of lining the road with signs, for OHV's?
It would be a pretty awsome sight to see a bunch of Jeeps lined up
there. I don't know if you would be able to get close to the route
though.
--James
24463 From: <jeeperaz@q...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 0:31pm
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
That was me who mentioned Benedryl and I never said anything about
snakes bites in general. If you would have read rather than jumping
to conclusions you would have seen where it was specific to Coral
Snakes. BTW, there is no anti-venom available for the subspecies of
Coral Snake thats found in Arizona (Micruroides euryxanthes). It's a
relatively innocuous snake and no deaths have been attributed to its
bite.
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Garrison St.Clair" <gunslinger@i...> wrote:
> Last week someone posted that you should carry Benedryl in case of
snake
> bite. This information is absolutely incorrect.
24464 From: Stu Olson <solson8@q...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 1:02pm
Subject: RE: Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
Michael,
Hopefully, only a single person will be chattering at one time, else it will be most difficult to distinguish who is saying what. ;)
Having been a ham radio operator for over 25 years, I might suggest one ot two things that could help.
#1. Only one person talk at a time (pretty easy to handle that).
#2. Keep your transmission fairly short.
#3. Let the channel go dead for a couple of seconds before responding to a question or comment. This gives anyone a chance to jump in with that "important trail situation" comment that we all will benefit from.
#4. Try to remember #2 and #3.
In my opinion, having a trail channel and a chat channel is next to worthless. For instance, I want to ask you a question about the fork in the trail. I call you but you don't answer. So....you must be on the other channel. I switch to the other channel and find you exchanging suspension lift instructions with a friend.....well....what have we gained now? You are busy talking to someone else and that "trail situation" comment can not be asked.
Now....if someone wants to switch over to another channel for some reason to carry on a sidebar conversation with another driver....it only takes a second to announce that (make use of #3 to make that happen).
Did I mention trying to follow #2 and #3?
Stu
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Earls [mailto:michael@cerkit.com]
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 12:22 AM
To: AZ Virtual Jeep Club List (E-mail)
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
What about situations on the trail that require some careful attention? If everyone is chattering, don't we miss some of the important things like "Don't get out of the Jeep there, I just saw a 20 ft rattlesnake"... or "the right line will take you down a deep chasm into a giant bottomless pit, I wish we had seen it..."?
Anyway, maybe we should designate a "chat" channel, and a trail channel. I read quite a bit about Jeep modifications on this mailing list.
Or maybe that's a silly idea.
Michael Earls
-----Original Message-----
From: Stu Olson [mailto:solson8@qwest.net]
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 10:43 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
Donna commented that she missed the normal "banter" that she is use to hearing. Of course, she is thinking mostly about last month's Moab run.....which was almost a non-stop radio fest, so to speak. Everybody had their turn in the barrel and a person's action on one obstacle would carry over into the jokes for several days to come.
I enjoyed our conversation last night about underside mods.....but you are right....it was pretty quiet on the radio. Must have had something to do with not knowing about 50% of the people. Hopefully that will change as the summer runs progress!
Stu
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Kruize [mailto:osmtj@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 10:23 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
Stu,
I agree with everything you've said here. I also want to note that it weems on most runs that a few of us chat on the CB, but most people are rather quiet. Some of the most fun I've had on the trail has been some of the wacky conversations I've shared with other Jeepers on the trail. Its a great way to poke some (healthy) fun at each other ;) Speak up people and have some fun. Don't be afraid to join in. Stu only bites at midnight...
Scott
Stu Olson wrote:
James....you hit it right on the head.
Pick up the CB and ask the person behind you to drop back if the lights are
too bright. Simple enough thing to do and no one should take offense at
that. Oops....don't have a CB? Better go get one....do yourself and the
rest of the folks you are running with a favor. ;)
What can become a problem is being spread out over a long distance (when you
have as many as we did last night) and you get into some areas where several
trails converge and split up.....then hoping that everyone takes the correct
turn. Sure, you should never lose sight of the person behind you....but
then this entire discussion is kind of about wanting to lose sight of that
person so you don't have his headlights in your mirror. (great for the day
runs....stinks for night runs) There were many times last night where I
could have easily taken a turn, not announced it on the radio, and no one
would have had a clue which way I went.
The best thing to do is get on the radio and speak up when there is a
problem, question, etc.
Stu
-----Original Message-----
From: James Towle [mailto:James.Towle@asu.edu]
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 7:50 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
I guess a question I would pose is: how close is too close? I felt
like I was keeping a safe distance from who I was following last
night but, maybe the person in front of me didn't feel like it was
safe. My problem, if I have one, of following to close might stem
from going over rocks and focusing on the people in front of me and
their line(s). I was, though, very mindful of my lights being in
others mirrors. The factory fog lights plus the rock lights seem to
do a good job of lighting the trail, when you are moving slow.
Hopefully the people in this club can say something nicely if they
think the person behind them, or anybody else, is putting them, or
anybody else, at risk and the proper response will follow. I think we
are adults.
--James
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Stu Olson" wrote:
> I tried using my rock lights last night as trail lights, and for
me, they
> don't project enough light ahead of the vehicle. (Since I was
leading, I
> wasn't worried about shining them on anyone) ;) They do an awesome
job of
> lighting up the immediate vacinity around and under the vehicle
(great for
> the spotter to see what you are rolling over). There wasn't much
(if any)
> moon last night so no help from that source.
>
> Since I have a pair of factory fogs which have a very thin (in the
vertical
> plane) beam, I'm going to angle them down some and rely on them for
the
> trail.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: amstaff@e... [mailto:amstaff@e...]
> Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 6:42 PM
> To: az_vjc@y...
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
>
>
> Larry makes a valid point. Now that the
> night run season is upon us, it would be a
> good time to invest about $40 in a set of
> rock lights. There's very useful on the trail
> and you won't blind the poor schmoe in fron
> of you.
> Dion
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., jeeperaz@q... wrote:
> > Not here to preach but to inform some that might not know
better....
> >
> > Spacing on the trail:
> >
> > On non-technical trails there is no reason to follow 5ft behind
the
> > person in front of you. Especially on night runs where your
> > headlights are blinding your fellow club member. Of course things
are
> > going to get bunched up at times but we get enough bumper to
bumper
> > on our daily commutes.... no reason to have it on the trail.
> >
> > This goes for hills climbs/decents as well. A number of times
during
> > the past few weeks I've seen someone start up or down a
challenging
> > hill before the person in front of them has made it out of harms
way.
> >
> > Keep your distance.... its not a race to the finish line!
> >
> >
> > Hope everyone enjoys the last bit of the holiday weekend.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > LarryM
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions $2 Million Sweepstakes - Got something to sell?
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
24465 From: Garrison St.Clair <gunslinger@i...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 1:24pm
Subject: Re: Re: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
First, I did not jump to conclusions. You had recommended medicating a
snakebite victim. This is incorrect advice, regardless of the type of
snake. I therefore pointed out this error and provided a protocol for
treating snakebites written by a physician for use by non-medical personnel.
I think I took the correct action in point this and I believe it would be
prudent for all non-medical personnel to follow the posted protocol - unless
ADVISED OTHERWISE by a PHYSICIAN.
FYI, the earlier of the two available antivenin, the Wyeth Serum (equine
base) is used to treat Coral Snake bites as well as those of Pit Vipers.
The later antivenin CroFAB (sheep based) is used only for pit vipers, though
it is considered effective on Mojave Rattler's which are neurotoxic.
Here is a citation for you:
"...Though coral snakebites are rare in the United States--only about 25 a
year by some estimates--the snake's neurotoxic venom can be dangerous. A
1987 study in the Journal of the American Medical Association examined 39
victims of coral snakebites. There were no deaths, but several victims
experienced respiratory paralysis, one of the hazards of neurotoxic
venom...."
"...The bites of both pit vipers and coral snakes can be effectively treated
with antivenin...."
[Source: John Henkel, FDA]
If anyone is interested in knowing more, I'll be glad to point you in the
right direction. but fort the purpose of most trail rides, the protocol
previously posted will suffice.
Gunslinger
----- Original Message -----
From: <jeeperaz@q...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, 28 May, 2001 14:31
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
> That was me who mentioned Benedryl and I never said anything about
> snakes bites in general. If you would have read rather than jumping
> to conclusions you would have seen where it was specific to Coral
> Snakes. BTW, there is no anti-venom available for the subspecies of
> Coral Snake thats found in Arizona (Micruroides euryxanthes). It's a
> relatively innocuous snake and no deaths have been attributed to its
> bite.
>
>
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Garrison St.Clair" <gunslinger@i...> wrote:
> > Last week someone posted that you should carry Benedryl in case of
> snake
> > bite. This information is absolutely incorrect.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
24466 From: Garrison St.Clair <gunslinger@i...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 1:46pm
Subject: Re: Re: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
Oops. When I screw up, I'm the first to admit it. Decided to do a bit of
follow-up on the Coral Snake issue.
Whoever (there was no name) pointed out that the ARIZONA Coral Snake is not
covered by antivenin is correct. Benedryl and other antihistamines are
used, though they should be administered upon physicians instructions. [The
protocol is still correct prior to being advised otherwise by a physician.]
There is also a 24/7 Snakebite telephone number in AZ: 520-626-6016
Gunslinger
----- Original Message -----
From: "Garrison St.Clair" <gunslinger@i...>
To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, 28 May, 2001 15:24
Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
> First, I did not jump to conclusions. You had recommended medicating a
> snakebite victim. This is incorrect advice, regardless of the type of
> snake. I therefore pointed out this error and provided a protocol for
> treating snakebites written by a physician for use by non-medical
personnel.
>
> I think I took the correct action in point this and I believe it would be
> prudent for all non-medical personnel to follow the posted protocol -
unless
> ADVISED OTHERWISE by a PHYSICIAN.
>
> FYI, the earlier of the two available antivenin, the Wyeth Serum (equine
> base) is used to treat Coral Snake bites as well as those of Pit Vipers.
> The later antivenin CroFAB (sheep based) is used only for pit vipers,
though
> it is considered effective on Mojave Rattler's which are neurotoxic.
>
> Here is a citation for you:
>
> "...Though coral snakebites are rare in the United States--only about 25 a
> year by some estimates--the snake's neurotoxic venom can be dangerous. A
> 1987 study in the Journal of the American Medical Association examined 39
> victims of coral snakebites. There were no deaths, but several victims
> experienced respiratory paralysis, one of the hazards of neurotoxic
> venom...."
>
> "...The bites of both pit vipers and coral snakes can be effectively
treated
> with antivenin...."
>
> [Source: John Henkel, FDA]
>
> If anyone is interested in knowing more, I'll be glad to point you in the
> right direction. but fort the purpose of most trail rides, the protocol
> previously posted will suffice.
>
> Gunslinger
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <jeeperaz@q...>
> To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, 28 May, 2001 14:31
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
>
>
> > That was me who mentioned Benedryl and I never said anything about
> > snakes bites in general. If you would have read rather than jumping
> > to conclusions you would have seen where it was specific to Coral
> > Snakes. BTW, there is no anti-venom available for the subspecies of
> > Coral Snake thats found in Arizona (Micruroides euryxanthes). It's a
> > relatively innocuous snake and no deaths have been attributed to its
> > bite.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In az_vjc@y..., "Garrison St.Clair" <gunslinger@i...> wrote:
> > > Last week someone posted that you should carry Benedryl in case of
> > snake
> > > bite. This information is absolutely incorrect.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
24467 From: linda luik <minihummer@w...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 1:49pm
Subject: Re: Re: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
This brought back memories of when I lived in Phoenix. My next door
neighbor brought home some dead cactus skeletons for her garden. One
contained a coral snake nest. My neighbor had about 30 cats (phew!
stinky in the summer) and suddenly the cats started dying. No one could
figure out what was going on until one day I found a baby coral snake,
about 4 inches long, by my back door. Fortunately none of the
neighborhood kids found any of them.
Linda
>
> Here is a citation for you:
>
> "...Though coral snakebites are rare in the United States--only about 25 a
> year by some estimates--the snake's neurotoxic venom can be dangerous. A
> 1987 study in the Journal of the American Medical Association examined 39
> victims of coral snakebites. There were no deaths, but several victims
> experienced respiratory paralysis, one of the hazards of neurotoxic
> venom...."
>
> "...The bites of both pit vipers and coral snakes can be effectively treated
> with antivenin...."
>
> [Source: John Henkel, FDA]
>
24468 From: DougB <azjeep@h...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 2:13pm
Subject: Free TJ Radiator
Free to a good home. TJ radiator - needs new cork gasket for the top. Trash
man gets it tomorrow.
Doug
24469 From: Gary MacLaren <gmaclaren@c...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 2:29pm
Subject: Fw: ACT FAST!! CARA Hearing June 20th
-----Original Message-----
From: LandRights Network <alra@p...>
To: 'chuck-cushman-list@f...' <chuck-cushman-list@f...>
Date: Monday, May 28, 2001 12:22 AM
Subject: ACT FAST!! CARA Hearing June 20th
American Land Rights Association - Land Rights Network
PO Box 400 - Battle Ground WA 98604
Phone: 360-687-3087 - Fax: 360-687-2973 - Email: <alra@p...> -
http://www.landrights.org
Legislative Office: 508 First St SE - Washington DC 20003
Phone: 202-210-2357 - Fax: 202-543-7126 - Email: landrightsnet@a...
ACT FAST - CARA Hearing June 20th
Your Congressman and Senator Are Home This Week
WHAT'S THE PROBLEM?
The Greens and Government Agencies Want Your Land.
They're willing to use condemnation to take it. Yes, that's right. If
CARA passes, government agencies will have the money to confiscate your
land.
The Resources Committee is planning to hold a hearing on CARA June 20th.
Sponsors will try to bring it to a vote in early July.
CARA, the Conservation and Reinvestment Act (HR 701), has a huge number of
Co-Sponsors in the House and could pass unless you rise up and oppose it
NOW. Why do the co-sponsors support CARA. MONEY$$, MONEY$$, MONEY$$.
CARA is one of the largest PORK BARREL BILLS EVER. And it will TAKE
YOUR LAND.
WHY IT IS URGENT TO ACT NOW!!
The House Resources Committee has set a hearing on CARA (HR 701) for June
20th.
It is urgent that you write and call your Congressman to oppose CARA.
Congress is home for the Memorial Week Recess until June 4th. This is the
time to go to a local meeting where your Congressman is speaking to oppose
CARA.
Call your Congressman's local office. Put the heat on.
You must make controversy about CARA quickly. You were lucky to defeat
CARA last year. The greens and their land grabbing friends will take no
prisoners this year.
CARA WILL HURT YOU!!
CARA is an all out attack on all landowners including farmers, ranchers,
miners, forestry advocates, recreation enthusiasts and many more. It will
force the closure of hundreds of rural communities and force residents into
the cities.
CARA also funds an assault on Federal land users. It funds more Roadless
and Wilderness areas, and converts millions of acres of private land into
government land which then is made off limits to you.
CARA will make millions of acres off limits to energy exploration and
development while taking $3 billion each and every year for 15 years ($45
billion in total) away from America's ability to solve its energy problem.
CARA makes our energy problem worse while handicapping our ability to fix
it.
READ THIS LIST CAREFULLY
THERE'S A TARGET PAINTED ON YOUR CHEST
HERE'S WHY YOU MUST FIGHT CARA
-----CARA will provide over $45 billion dollars over 15 years in a
guaranteed trust fund, most of it for land acquisition. This is virtually
the same bill you fought off last year.
-----The real name for CARA should be THE CONDEMNATION AND RELOCATION
ACT for that is what it really does.
-----CARA sets aside $3 billion per year that does not have to compete in
Congress for funds in the appropriations process with medical care,
education, defense or any other social need. Why should land acquisition
and condemnation of private land get a higher priority than the military?
MAKE CARA COMPETE - NO TRUST FUND;
-----Government agents and appraisers get well OVER ONE BILLION DOLLARS PER
YEAR TO CONDEMN PRIVATE PROPERTY. No one is safe. Eminent Domain will be
rampant;
-----Environmental law firms receive grant money so they can sue YOU into
bankruptcy;
-----Extremists gain $60 million dollars per year to train an ARMY of
investigators who will trespass on your land to LOCATE AND POLICE
ENDANGERED SPECIES;
-----ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVISTS clamor for - you guessed it - money money
money - to reintroduce wolves that kill livestock and run cattle ranchers,
farmers, inholders and landowners off their land;
-----CARA would provide billions of dollars over fifteen years for
government agents to condemn private property and then turn it into
wilderness - no access, no people;
-----CARA funds SHUTTING DOWN RECREATIONAL AND COMMERCIAL ACCESS to
the federal lands by making more lands available for more wilderness
designations like President Clinton has done;
-----"Non-government organizations" (NGOs) win funding to draw up UNITED
NATIONS Biosphere Reserves, override national sovereignty and eliminate
private property rights;
-----CARA will fund new UN Biosphere Reserves and UN World Heritage Sites;
-----Lands cut off by Forest Service Roadless Rule will become targets for
CARA as well;
-----CARA helps make more LANDS OFF-LIMITS TO ENERGY EXPLORATION AND
DEVELOPMENT;
-----All lands with Endangered Species will be targets of land acquisition
- there will be no limit;
-----Green groups will seek to designate hundreds of areas of private land
as new Federal areas;
-----Much of the MONEY WILL GO TO THE NATURE CONSERVANCY and other
giant green land trusts;
-----HUNTERS AND SPORTSMEN WILL LOSE ACCESS to acquired lands;
-----Inholder families are specifically targeted in the new bills;
-----Hundreds of small communities in existing Federal areas will be wiped
off the map;
-----Land acquisition has always been used as a WEAPON TO REGULATE AND
CONTROL PRIVATE LANDOWNERS;
-----LAND ACQUISITION DRIVES AWAY EMPLOYERS The community and its
future are left in doubt;
-----CARA (HR.701) will make it more difficult to build homes and
businesses in rural areas;
-----NO PRIVATE PROPERTY WILL BE SAFE with these funds available.
FARMERS WILL BE ESPECIALLY HARD HIT;
-----The Federal agencies should take care of what they have before buying
more land;
-----Billions of dollars of private land will be TAKEN OFF THE TAX ROLLS
forcing local taxes up;
-----Congressional Appropriations Committee estimates the FEDERAL AGENCIES
ARE $12 BILLION BEHIND IN DEFERRED MAINTENANCE. Any money should go for
maintenance, not land acquisition; and
-----There should be no net loss of private land in America.
STOP CARA, THE CONDEMNATION AND RELOCATION ACT
SAY NO TO THE GIANT LAND GRAB
SAY NO TO LAND CONFISCATION!!
WHAT YOU SHOULD DO IMMEDIATELY!!
--1. CALL YOUR CONGRESSMAN at the Capitol Switchboard at (202) 225-3121
to oppose CARA. There is a temporary FREE NUMBER of (800) 648-3516. URGE
THEM TO VOTE NO on CARA. NO massive trust fund! NO land grabs!
URGE HIM TO ASK FOR FIELD HEARINGS ON CARA IN YOUR AREA. Ask if
he or she has signed up to sponsor CARA. If so, ask that he or she remove
their name. Congressman JC WATTS of Oklahoma just dropped his
co-sponsorship.
--2. WRITE YOUR CONGRESSMAN. A simple one page letter using two or three
of the reasons to oppose CARA we have listed above. Put them in your own
words. BE SURE TO ASK FOR FIELD HEARINGS. Send your letter to:
Honorable: ________ US House of Representatives, Washington, DC 20515.
--3. FAX YOUR CONGRESSMAN. Get and keep the fax number of your Congre
ssman. If you don't have it, ask for it when you call. FAX your letter to
your Congressman and ask that your letter be submitted for the official
hearing record of the hearing on June 20th. ASK FOR LOCAL FIELD
HEARINGS SO THAT YOU CAN TESTIFY.
--4. YOUR CONGRESSMAN IS HOME UNTIL JUNE 4th. He or she may be
holding town meetings to meet with you. It is very important that you
call his office to find out where they will be. Call their office in
Washington, DC or their local office. Get their schedule. Go to the
meeting. Alert at least five friends.
--5. HERE IS THE NEW HOUSE RESOURCES COMMITTEE LIST. Check to see
if your Congressman is on it. If he is, YOU MUST NOT FAIL to write and
call him. If your Congressman is not on the committee list, it is still
vital that you urge him to oppose CARA and ask for LOCAL FIELD HEARINGS.
RESOURCES COMMITTEE LIST -- 107th Congress (Save this list)
Republicans:
James Hansen (UT) Chairman
Don Young (AK)
Billy Tauzin (LA)
Jim Saxton (NJ)
Elton Gallegly (CA)
John Duncan (TN)
Joel Hefley (CO)
Wayne Gilchrest (MD)
Ken Calvert (CA)
Scott McInnis (CO)
Richard Pombo (CA)
Barbara Cubin (WY)
George Radanovich (CA)
Walter Jones JR (NC)
William Thornberry (TX)
Chris Channon (UT)
John Peterson (PA)
Bob Schaffer (CO)
James Gibbons (NV)
Mark Souder (IN)
Greg Walden (OR)
Mike Simpson (ID)
Thomas Tancredo (CO)
CL Otter (ID)
Thomas Osborne (NE)
Jeff Flake (AZ)
Dennis Rehberg (MT)
Democrats:
Nick Rahall II (WV) (Ranking Minority Member)
George Miller (CA)
Edward Markey (MA)
Dale Kildee (MI)
Peter DeFazio (OR)
Eni F. H. Faleomavaega, Delegate -AS
Neil Abercrombie (HI)
Solomon Ortiz (TX)
Frank Pallone (NJ)
Calvin Dooley (CA)
Robert Underwood, Delegate - Guam
Adam Smith (WA)
Donna Christian-Christensen, Delegate - Virgin Islands
Ron Kind (WI)
Jay Inslee (WA)
Grace Napolitano (CA)
Tom Udall (NM)
Mark Udall (CO)
Rush Hold (NJ)
James McGovern (MA)
Anibal Acevedo-Vila-Res. Comm. - PR
Hilda Solis (CA)
Brad Carson (OK)
Betty McCollum (MN)
IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO FORWARD THIS MESSAGE TO AT LEAST FIVE OTHER
PEOPLE - YOUR WHOLE LIST IF POSSIBLE.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *NOTE: In accordance with
Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or
payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this
information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more
information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
To be removed from future mailings just reply with REMOVE in the subject
line.
24470 From: Scott Kruize <osmtj@y...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 2:33pm
Subject: RE: Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
I like to carry FRS radios if I want to do some side chatting. They are cheap and the range is much better than CB. I still use the CB as my primary contact with the group. You can buy a pair of FRS radios at Costco or Sams for around $60. I bought 3 Motorolas from Costco. The first 2 were $59 each but the last one I bought the price had dropped to $39. They also work great if there are some new members without a CB. I like to loan them out so they don't feel isolated.
Scott
Stu Olson wrote:
Michael,
Hopefully, only a single person will be chattering at one time, else it will be most difficult to distinguish who is saying what. ;)
Having been a ham radio operator for over 25 years, I might suggest one ot two things that could help.
#1. Only one person talk at a time (pretty easy to handle that).
#2. Keep your transmission fairly short.
#3. Let the channel go dead for a couple of seconds before responding to a question or comment. This gives anyone a chance to jump in with that "important trail situation" comment that we all will benefit from.
#4. Try to remember #2 and #3.
In my opinion, having a trail channel and a chat channel is next to worthless. For instance, I want to ask you a question about the fork in the trail. I call you but you don't answer. So....you must be on the other channel. I switch to the other channel and find you exchanging suspension lift instructions with a friend.....well....what have we gained now? You are busy talking to someone else and that "trail situation" comment can not be asked.
Now....if someone wants to switch over to another channel for some reason to carry on a sidebar conversation with another driver....it only takes a second to announce that (make use of #3 to make that happen).
Did I mention trying to follow #2 and #3?
Stu
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Earls [mailto:michael@cerkit.com]
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 12:22 AM
To: AZ Virtual Jeep Club List (E-mail)
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
What about situations on the trail that require some careful attention? If everyone is chattering, don't we miss some of the important things like "Don't get out of the Jeep there, I just saw a 20 ft rattlesnake"... or "the right line will take you down a deep chasm into a giant bottomless pit, I wish we had seen it..."?
Anyway, maybe we should designate a "chat" channel, and a trail channel. I read quite a bit about Jeep modifications on this mailing list.
Or maybe that's a silly idea.
Michael Earls
-----Original Message-----
From: Stu Olson [mailto:solson8@qwest.net]
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 10:43 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
Donna commented that she missed the normal "banter" that she is use to hearing. Of course, she is thinking mostly about last month's Moab run.....which was almost a non-stop radio fest, so to speak. Everybody had their turn in the barrel and a person's action on one obstacle would carry over into the jokes for several days to come.
I enjoyed our conversation last night about underside mods.....but you are right....it was pretty quiet on the radio. Must have had something to do with not knowing about 50% of the people. Hopefully that will change as the summer runs progress!
Stu
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Kruize [mailto:osmtj@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 10:23 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
Stu,
I agree with everything you've said here. I also want to note that it weems on most runs that a few of us chat on the CB, but most people are rather quiet. Some of the most fun I've had on the trail has been some of the wacky conversations I've shared with other Jeepers on the trail. Its a great way to poke some (healthy) fun at each other ;) Speak up people and have some fun. Don't be afraid to join in. Stu only bites at midnight...
Scott
Stu Olson wrote:
James....you hit it right on the head.
Pick up the CB and ask the person behind you to drop back if the lights are
too bright. Simple enough thing to do and no one should take offense at
that. Oops....don't have a CB? Better go get one....do yourself and the
rest of the folks you are running with a favor. ;)
What can become a problem is being spread out over a long distance (when you
have as many as we did last night) and you get into some areas where several
trails converge and split up.....then hoping that everyone takes the correct
turn. Sure, you should never lose sight of the person behind you....but
then this entire discussion is kind of about wanting to lose sight of that
person so you don't have his headlights in your mirror. (great for the day
runs....stinks for night runs) There were many times last night where I
could have easily taken a turn, not announced it on the radio, and no one
would have had a clue which way I went.
The best thing to do is get on the radio and speak up when there is a
problem, question, etc.
Stu
-----Original Message-----
From: James Towle [mailto:James.Towle@asu.edu]
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 7:50 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
I guess a question I would pose is: how close is too close? I felt
like I was keeping a safe distance from who I was following last
night but, maybe the person in front of me didn't feel like it was
safe. My problem, if I have one, of following to close might stem
from going over rocks and focusing on the people in front of me and
their line(s). I was, though, very mindful of my lights being in
others mirrors. The factory fog lights plus the rock lights seem to
do a good job of lighting the trail, when you are moving slow.
Hopefully the people in this club can say something nicely if they
think the person behind them, or anybody else, is putting them, or
anybody else, at risk and the proper response will follow. I think we
are adults.
--James
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Stu Olson" wrote:
> I tried using my rock lights last night as trail lights, and for
me, they
> don't project enough light ahead of the vehicle. (Since I was
leading, I
> wasn't worried about shining them on anyone) ;) They do an awesome
job of
> lighting up the immediate vacinity around and under the vehicle
(great for
> the spotter to see what you are rolling over). There wasn't much
(if any)
> moon last night so no help from that source.
>
> Since I have a pair of factory fogs which have a very thin (in the
vertical
> plane) beam, I'm going to angle them down some and rely on them for
the
> trail.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: amstaff@e... [mailto:amstaff@e...]
> Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 6:42 PM
> To: az_vjc@y...
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
>
>
> Larry makes a valid point. Now that the
> night run season is upon us, it would be a
> good time to invest about $40 in a set of
> rock lights. There's very useful on the trail
> and you won't blind the poor schmoe in fron
> of you.
> Dion
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., jeeperaz@q... wrote:
> > Not here to preach but to inform some that might not know
better....
> >
> > Spacing on the trail:
> >
> > On non-technical trails there is no reason to follow 5ft behind
the
> > person in front of you. Especially on night runs where your
> > headlights are blinding your fellow club member. Of course things
are
> > going to get bunched up at times but we get enough bumper to
bumper
> > on our daily commutes.... no reason to have it on the trail.
> >
> > This goes for hills climbs/decents as well. A number of times
during
> > the past few weeks I've seen someone start up or down a
challenging
> > hill before the person in front of them has made it out of harms
way.
> >
> > Keep your distance.... its not a race to the finish line!
> >
> >
> > Hope everyone enjoys the last bit of the holiday weekend.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > LarryM
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions $2 Million Sweepstakes - Got something to sell?
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions $2 Million Sweepstakes - Got something to sell?
24471 From: AzVJC Website <azvjc@a...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 2:39pm
Subject: [TR] Trip Report - DuPont Cabin - Saturday, May 26, 2001
Hello All,
This is an automated message from the website, please do not reply to it!
Blake Shepherd lead a trail run Saturday, May 26, 2001 across DuPont Cabin
This was a good trip. Those who attended where Jim F. (STK YJ), Rick and Vanda (XJ), Heather (TJ), Aaron and Michelle (TJ), Randy and Christine (YJ) and myself in the CJ5. We met up at Dennys on HWY 87 at 7 AM and left around 8:30. Jim F. had the trail mapped out on his GPS, so he led the run. The trail to the Dupont Cabin is mostly a graded dirt road. Only the last mile or so is a 3.0 trail with no real obstacles. This was one of Heathers first runs in her stock TJ with 31s. She made it through the tiny obstacles with some good spotting from Jim F. Once about halfway to the cabin, Jims GPS showed that we were there. Thanks go to Doug B. for giving Jim verbal directions. The last part of the trail is a long, winding uphill climb. The temperature was approaching 100 degrees. Jim, Rick and I all ran a little hot due to the slow and steep ascent. Heather and Aarons newer TJs had no problems. We arrived to the Dupont cabin around 2 PM. Randy was running behind. He finally got there well after dark. After that, we just sat around and enjoyed the cool night and a few suds. The following morning Heather, Aaron and I packed up camp and left around noon. Everyone else stayed around for one more night of cool weather. On the way back to Punkin Center, I had some massive steering problems. Come to find out, I bent my tie rod way up. I can only imaging that it got bent while I was crossing a log just past the Dupont cabin. I have always heard of using a winch cable to wrap around the front axle to pull the tie rod straight. This wouldnt work in my case. I ended up using Heathers stock TJ tire jack to push the tie rod straight using my oil pan has a resting point. It worked great! We aired up at Jakes gas station and headed out. Thanks for all who attended to make this a great club camping trip.
Blake
80CJ5
01 TJ
Click Here for more Information and to View Pictures
Thank You,
- The AzVJC Website
24472 From: <cmandrick@h...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 4:50pm
Subject: Re: Liberty is here!!!
Yeah, the two-piece door sucks, along with the super-articulation
IFS... I wonder how long until after-market supports the Liberty,
like lift kits, bumpers, etc. All-in-all, I would rather drive a
Liberty than a RAV or Escape or any of the other pretend 4x4's...
Chris M
--- In az_vjc@y..., linda luik <minihummer@w...> wrote:
> Just drove by Darner's (had to work this morning). There's a pretty
> white Liberty in the lot. $23k price tag. The rear door looks to be
> 2-piece. You have to open the window before you can swing out the
lower
> door -- Yuk! Other than that it looks pretty nice.
>
> Linda
24473 From: <fmw@q...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 5:28pm
Subject: Re: Re: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
Wow, wayyyy to many urban myths, legends here.. Let's try and set all this
straight.. I've been involved with venomous snakes (research) for many, many
years, going back to the late 1960's. I've known Jude McNally, directory of
the Az Poison Control Center, here in Tucson for years, and have known and
worked with (field research), Dave Hardy MD (rt), for the better part of 10
years.. Dave is one of the best-known snakebite experts here in the state..
My research has included things like radiotelemetery of 3 species of
protected rattlesnakes and another 3 species of non-protected rattlesnakes,
here in SE Arizona, doing research with and permitted through AZ Game and
Fish, ASU, U of Calif. Berk., and Cornell University, with Dave Hardy MD,
and Harry Greene. Some of the ongoing research with one species of protected
rattlesnake here is SE Arizona has just been quoted and written up by Andy
Holycross (ASU) and published (Copeia, 2001(2), pp. 473-481).
Now, let's get to the facts.
- There are no such things as "Coral Snake nest".. They wouldn't be killing
cats. Look to coyotes, rattlesnakes, etc. Certainly not a "nest of Coral
Snakes".
- The Wyeth Serum (polyvalent) "never" was designed to treat any type of
Coral Snakes bites. Wyeth makes a serum specific for Coral Snakes (Eastern
and Texa Coral Snakes only). So the statement:"...The bites of both pit
vipers and coral snakes can be effectively treated
>with antivenin....",
does *not* imply that the same antivenin works, only that they bites *can*
be treated by antivenin.
- There is no antivenin for the Coral Snake that occurs here in Az. None is
needed. Bites are extremely rare and there have been no deaths or even any
serious symptoms.. It's almost impossible to get bite by one, unless you are
handling it, even then they are very unlikely to bite.
- 99.999% of the people here in Az. can not identify a Mojave Rattlesnake
from any other type, so no different field treatment (as in a compression
bandage) should be used for any snakebite here.
- The "neurotoxic" (note in quotes) factor in the Mojave Rattlesnake venom
(Mojave toxin A), *only* occurs in some SE AZ populations. Though it has
demostrated neurotoxic activity in lab experiments, and maybe some animal
bites, it has not demostrated any classic neurotoxic activity in human
victims, such as paralysis, labored breathing, etc.. It does produce rapid
shock, in human victims..
- Serum is generally not available outside of hospitals, as it's use carries
a danger and it really needs to be used IV.
- If a paramedic is closer than a hospital, go there.. They can stabilize a
victim for transport.
- The Extractor is no longer recommended for field treatment (Dave Hardy
MD), as it hasn't been shown to help, and there have been some questionable
damage (possible) from it's use.
- Other than calming and reassuring the victim, *no* field treatment should
be attempted.. Simply transport the victim to a hospital as quickly and
safely as possible.
- Generally it's wise *not* to attempt to kill the snake for ID.. Many bites
in this state occur this way and from "dead" snakes, that can bite,
reflexively for some time.
- There are around several hundred snakebites each year here (deaths are
extremely rear, the last one being several years ago, and it was from an
"illegal" snake and the actually cause of death was a massive allergic
reaction to the venom, brought on by previous bites.. It's virtually
impossible for this to happen on the first bite), and somewhere around 75%
of the bites, are what we term, illegitimate bites.. This is defined as:
- The person sees the snake
- The person normally recognizes for what it is (venomous).
- The person attempts to "mess" with the snake (kill it, catch it, etc).
- The vast majority of these illegitimate bites occur in males, and a high
percentage of those involve the recent consumption of alcohol or drugs.
There is hardly any reason to mess with a venomous snake.. There is hardly
any reason to attempt to kill a venomous snake.. Left to it's own, it *will"
leave. BTW, rattlesnakes do *not* have to rattle before they bite. They,
generally, can only strike about 1/3 of their length.
A few simple rules, will help avoid snakebite problems:
- Leave all snakes alone.. Never attempt to kill or otherwise mess with one.
- Always step on rocks, fallen trees first and look on the other side. Never
simply step over them.
- When collecting fire wood, etc. be very careful where you place you hands.
- Never reach under rocks, boards, logs.. If you want to turn them, do it
without reaching under them.
- Be very careful and watch your feet and hands around caves and mines.
Snakes are "cold blooded" and can not really regulate their body
temperature, so during the heat of the day, they will do the same as you,
seek shade :)
- When climbing, make sure you have a clear view of where you are about to
reach.
- When in brush or rocks, watch where you sit.
- If you do come across a snake, leave it alone.
:)
Fred
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This brought back memories of when I lived in Phoenix. My next door
neighbor brought home some dead cactus skeletons for her garden. One
contained a coral snake nest. My neighbor had about 30 cats (phew!
stinky in the summer) and suddenly the cats started dying. No one could
figure out what was going on until one day I found a baby coral snake,
about 4 inches long, by my back door. Fortunately none of the
neighborhood kids found any of them.
Linda
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
At 03:24 PM 5/28/1 -0500, Garrison St.Clair wrote:
>First, I did not jump to conclusions. You had recommended medicating a
>snakebite victim. This is incorrect advice, regardless of the type of
>snake. I therefore pointed out this error and provided a protocol for
>treating snakebites written by a physician for use by non-medical personnel.
>
>I think I took the correct action in point this and I believe it would be
>prudent for all non-medical personnel to follow the posted protocol - unless
>ADVISED OTHERWISE by a PHYSICIAN.
>
>FYI, the earlier of the two available antivenin, the Wyeth Serum (equine
>base) is used to treat Coral Snake bites as well as those of Pit Vipers.
>The later antivenin CroFAB (sheep based) is used only for pit vipers, though
>it is considered effective on Mojave Rattler's which are neurotoxic.
>
>Here is a citation for you:
>
>"...Though coral snakebites are rare in the United States--only about 25 a
>year by some estimates--the snake's neurotoxic venom can be dangerous. A
>1987 study in the Journal of the American Medical Association examined 39
>victims of coral snakebites. There were no deaths, but several victims
>experienced respiratory paralysis, one of the hazards of neurotoxic
>venom...."
>
>"...The bites of both pit vipers and coral snakes can be effectively treated
>with antivenin...."
>
>[Source: John Henkel, FDA]
>
>If anyone is interested in knowing more, I'll be glad to point you in the
>right direction. but fort the purpose of most trail rides, the protocol
>previously posted will suffice.
>
>Gunslinger
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <jeeperaz@q...>
>To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Monday, 28 May, 2001 14:31
>Subject: [az_vjc] Re: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
>
>
>> That was me who mentioned Benedryl and I never said anything about
>> snakes bites in general. If you would have read rather than jumping
>> to conclusions you would have seen where it was specific to Coral
>> Snakes. BTW, there is no anti-venom available for the subspecies of
>> Coral Snake thats found in Arizona (Micruroides euryxanthes). It's a
>> relatively innocuous snake and no deaths have been attributed to its
>> bite.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Garrison St.Clair" <gunslinger@i...> wrote:
>> > Last week someone posted that you should carry Benedryl in case of
>> snake
>> > bite. This information is absolutely incorrect.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
24474 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 5:29pm
Subject: FS: Warn winch and mount
For Sale:
Warn X8000i
Only used twice. Very good condition
Never submerged
No fairlead
$500
Warn winch mount for a 97 TJ
According to Warn, will only work on the 97 models for some reason
No fairlead
$90
As usual, you are welcome to make me an offer. I might accept it.
ChrisK
24475 From: Brent Lizakowski <brent_lizakowski@h...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 5:29pm
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
>
> There is also a 24/7 Snakebite telephone number in AZ: 520-626-6016
>
> Gunslinger
Thanks for the number and the info, it's being printed up and going
in my 1st aid kit.
Brent
24476 From: Chris Krieg <rv6a@m...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 5:35pm
Subject: Re: Re: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
Wow! Really good information. Thanks.
ChrisK
> From: fmw@q...
> To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [az_vjc] Re: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
>
> Wow, wayyyy to many urban myths, legends here.. Let's try and set all this
> straight.. I've been involved with venomous snakes (research) for many, many
> years, going back to the late 1960's. I've known Jude McNally, directory of
> the Az Poison Control Center, here in Tucson for years, and have known and
> worked with (field research), Dave Hardy MD (rt), for the better part of 10
> years.. Dave is one of the best-known snakebite experts here in the state..
> My research has included things like radiotelemetery of 3 species of
> protected rattlesnakes and another 3 species of non-protected rattlesnakes,
> here in SE Arizona, doing research with and permitted through AZ Game and
> Fish, ASU, U of Calif. Berk., and Cornell University, with Dave Hardy MD,
> and Harry Greene. Some of the ongoing research with one species of protected
> rattlesnake here is SE Arizona has just been quoted and written up by Andy
> Holycross (ASU) and published (Copeia, 2001(2), pp. 473-481).
> Now, let's get to the facts.
> - There are no such things as "Coral Snake nest".. They wouldn't be killing
> cats. Look to coyotes, rattlesnakes, etc. Certainly not a "nest of Coral
> Snakes".
> - The Wyeth Serum (polyvalent) "never" was designed to treat any type of
> Coral Snakes bites. Wyeth makes a serum specific for Coral Snakes (Eastern
> and Texa Coral Snakes only). So the statement:"...The bites of both pit
> vipers and coral snakes can be effectively treated
>> with antivenin....",
> does *not* imply that the same antivenin works, only that they bites *can*
> be treated by antivenin.
> - There is no antivenin for the Coral Snake that occurs here in Az. None is
> needed. Bites are extremely rare and there have been no deaths or even any
> serious symptoms.. It's almost impossible to get bite by one, unless you are
> handling it, even then they are very unlikely to bite.
> - 99.999% of the people here in Az. can not identify a Mojave Rattlesnake
> from any other type, so no different field treatment (as in a compression
> bandage) should be used for any snakebite here.
> - The "neurotoxic" (note in quotes) factor in the Mojave Rattlesnake venom
> (Mojave toxin A), *only* occurs in some SE AZ populations. Though it has
> demostrated neurotoxic activity in lab experiments, and maybe some animal
> bites, it has not demostrated any classic neurotoxic activity in human
> victims, such as paralysis, labored breathing, etc.. It does produce rapid
> shock, in human victims..
> - Serum is generally not available outside of hospitals, as it's use carries
> a danger and it really needs to be used IV.
> - If a paramedic is closer than a hospital, go there.. They can stabilize a
> victim for transport.
> - The Extractor is no longer recommended for field treatment (Dave Hardy
> MD), as it hasn't been shown to help, and there have been some questionable
> damage (possible) from it's use.
> - Other than calming and reassuring the victim, *no* field treatment should
> be attempted.. Simply transport the victim to a hospital as quickly and
> safely as possible.
> - Generally it's wise *not* to attempt to kill the snake for ID.. Many bites
> in this state occur this way and from "dead" snakes, that can bite,
> reflexively for some time.
> - There are around several hundred snakebites each year here (deaths are
> extremely rear, the last one being several years ago, and it was from an
> "illegal" snake and the actually cause of death was a massive allergic
> reaction to the venom, brought on by previous bites.. It's virtually
> impossible for this to happen on the first bite), and somewhere around 75%
> of the bites, are what we term, illegitimate bites.. This is defined as:
> - The person sees the snake
> - The person normally recognizes for what it is (venomous).
> - The person attempts to "mess" with the snake (kill it, catch it, etc).
> - The vast majority of these illegitimate bites occur in males, and a high
> percentage of those involve the recent consumption of alcohol or drugs.
>
> There is hardly any reason to mess with a venomous snake.. There is hardly
> any reason to attempt to kill a venomous snake.. Left to it's own, it *will"
> leave. BTW, rattlesnakes do *not* have to rattle before they bite. They,
> generally, can only strike about 1/3 of their length.
>
> A few simple rules, will help avoid snakebite problems:
> - Leave all snakes alone.. Never attempt to kill or otherwise mess with one.
> - Always step on rocks, fallen trees first and look on the other side. Never
> simply step over them.
> - When collecting fire wood, etc. be very careful where you place you hands.
> - Never reach under rocks, boards, logs.. If you want to turn them, do it
> without reaching under them.
> - Be very careful and watch your feet and hands around caves and mines.
> Snakes are "cold blooded" and can not really regulate their body
> temperature, so during the heat of the day, they will do the same as you,
> seek shade :)
> - When climbing, make sure you have a clear view of where you are about to
> reach.
> - When in brush or rocks, watch where you sit.
> - If you do come across a snake, leave it alone.
>
>
> :)
> Fred
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> This brought back memories of when I lived in Phoenix. My next door
> neighbor brought home some dead cactus skeletons for her garden. One
> contained a coral snake nest. My neighbor had about 30 cats (phew!
> stinky in the summer) and suddenly the cats started dying. No one could
> figure out what was going on until one day I found a baby coral snake,
> about 4 inches long, by my back door. Fortunately none of the
> neighborhood kids found any of them.
>
> Linda
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> At 03:24 PM 5/28/1 -0500, Garrison St.Clair wrote:
>> First, I did not jump to conclusions. You had recommended medicating a
>> snakebite victim. This is incorrect advice, regardless of the type of
>> snake. I therefore pointed out this error and provided a protocol for
>> treating snakebites written by a physician for use by non-medical personnel.
>>
>> I think I took the correct action in point this and I believe it would be
>> prudent for all non-medical personnel to follow the posted protocol - unless
>> ADVISED OTHERWISE by a PHYSICIAN.
>>
>> FYI, the earlier of the two available antivenin, the Wyeth Serum (equine
>> base) is used to treat Coral Snake bites as well as those of Pit Vipers.
>> The later antivenin CroFAB (sheep based) is used only for pit vipers, though
>> it is considered effective on Mojave Rattler's which are neurotoxic.
>>
>> Here is a citation for you:
>>
>> "...Though coral snakebites are rare in the United States--only about 25 a
>> year by some estimates--the snake's neurotoxic venom can be dangerous. A
>> 1987 study in the Journal of the American Medical Association examined 39
>> victims of coral snakebites. There were no deaths, but several victims
>> experienced respiratory paralysis, one of the hazards of neurotoxic
>> venom...."
>>
>> "...The bites of both pit vipers and coral snakes can be effectively treated
>> with antivenin...."
>>
>> [Source: John Henkel, FDA]
>>
>> If anyone is interested in knowing more, I'll be glad to point you in the
>> right direction. but fort the purpose of most trail rides, the protocol
>> previously posted will suffice.
>>
>> Gunslinger
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <jeeperaz@q...>
>> To: <az_vjc@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Monday, 28 May, 2001 14:31
>> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
>>
>>
>>> That was me who mentioned Benedryl and I never said anything about
>>> snakes bites in general. If you would have read rather than jumping
>>> to conclusions you would have seen where it was specific to Coral
>>> Snakes. BTW, there is no anti-venom available for the subspecies of
>>> Coral Snake thats found in Arizona (Micruroides euryxanthes). It's a
>>> relatively innocuous snake and no deaths have been attributed to its
>>> bite.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In az_vjc@y..., "Garrison St.Clair" <gunslinger@i...> wrote:
>>>> Last week someone posted that you should carry Benedryl in case of
>>> snake
>>>> bite. This information is absolutely incorrect.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
24477 From: Brent Lizakowski <brent_lizakowski@h...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 5:45pm
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT - Snake Bite
Add to the list those who have seen the Crocodile Hunter one too many
times as well!
;)
Brent
--- In az_vjc@y..., fmw@q... wrote:
> - The person attempts to "mess" with the snake (kill it, catch it,
etc).
> - The vast majority of these illegitimate bites occur in males, and
a high
> percentage of those involve the recent consumption of alcohol or
drugs.
24478 From: Michael Earls <michael@c...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 6:37pm
Subject: RE: Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
My wife and I carry the FRS 60s for ourselves when we get separated. I think those are the best electronic device we have purchased (aside from the GPS) this year. I'd highly recommend them to any couple. We use them when out "shopping" so we can each go our separate ways and meet up when we're ready to go or we want the other to join us.
They're even better when we take side treks away from the Jeep.
Michael and Laurie Earls
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Kruize [mailto:osmtj@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 2:33 PM
To: Stu Olson; Michael Earls; AZ Virtual Jeep Club List (E-mail)
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
I like to carry FRS radios if I want to do some side chatting. They are cheap and the range is much better than CB. I still use the CB as my primary contact with the group. You can buy a pair of FRS radios at Costco or Sams for around $60. I bought 3 Motorolas from Costco. The first 2 were $59 each but the last one I bought the price had dropped to $39. They also work great if there are some new members without a CB. I like to loan them out so they don't feel isolated.
Scott
Stu Olson wrote:
Michael,
Hopefully, only a single person will be chattering at one time, else it will be most difficult to distinguish who is saying what. ;)
Having been a ham radio operator for over 25 years, I might suggest one ot two things that could help.
#1. Only one person talk at a time (pretty easy to handle that).
#2. Keep your transmission fairly short.
#3. Let the channel go dead for a couple of seconds before responding to a question or comment. This gives anyone a chance to jump in with that "important trail situation" comment that we all will benefit from.
#4. Try to remember #2 and #3.
In my opinion, having a trail channel and a chat channel is next to worthless. For instance, I want to ask you a question about the fork in the trail. I call you but you don't answer. So....you must be on the other channel. I switch to the other channel and find you exchanging suspension lift instructions with a friend.....well....what have we gained now? You are busy talking to someone else and that "trail situation" comment can not be asked.
Now....if someone wants to switch over to another channel for some reason to carry on a sidebar conversation with another driver....it only takes a second to announce that (make use of #3 to make that happen).
Did I mention trying to follow #2 and #3?
Stu
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Earls [mailto:michael@cerkit.com]
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 12:22 AM
To: AZ Virtual Jeep Club List (E-mail)
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
What about situations on the trail that require some careful attention? If everyone is chattering, don't we miss some of the important things like "Don't get out of the Jeep there, I just saw a 20 ft rattlesnake"... or "the right line will take you down a deep chasm into a giant bottomless pit, I wish we had seen it..."?
Anyway, maybe we should designate a "chat" channel, and a trail channel. I read quite a bit about Jeep modifications on this mailing list.
Or maybe that's a silly idea.
Michael Earls
-----Original Message-----
From: Stu Olson [mailto:solson8@qwest.net]
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 10:43 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
Donna commented that she missed the normal "banter" that she is use to hearing. Of course, she is thinking mostly about last month's Moab run.....which was almost a non-stop radio fest, so to speak. Everybody had their turn in the barrel and a person's action on one obstacle would carry over into the jokes for several days to come.
I enjoyed our conversation last night about underside mods.....but you are right....it was pretty quiet on the radio. Must have had something to do with not knowing about 50% of the people. Hopefully that will change as the summer runs progress!
Stu
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Kruize [mailto:osmtj@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 10:23 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
Stu,
I agree with everything you've said here. I also want to note that it weems on most runs that a few of us chat on the CB, but most people are rather quiet. Some of the most fun I've had on the trail has been some of the wacky conversations I've shared with other Jeepers on the trail. Its a great way to poke some (healthy) fun at each other ;) Speak up people and have some fun. Don't be afraid to join in. Stu only bites at midnight...
Scott
Stu Olson wrote:
James....you hit it right on the head.
Pick up the CB and ask the person behind you to drop back if the lights are
too bright. Simple enough thing to do and no one should take offense at
that. Oops....don't have a CB? Better go get one....do yourself and the
rest of the folks you are running with a favor. ;)
What can become a problem is being spread out over a long distance (when you
have as many as we did last night) and you get into some areas where several
trails converge and split up.....then hoping that everyone takes the correct
turn. Sure, you should never lose sight of the person behind you....but
then this entire discussion is kind of about wanting to lose sight of that
person so you don't have his headlights in your mirror. (great for the day
runs....stinks for night runs) There were many times last night where I
could have easily taken a turn, not announced it on the radio, and no one
would have had a clue which way I went.
The best thing to do is get on the radio and speak up when there is a
problem, question, etc.
Stu
-----Original Message-----
From: James Towle [mailto:James.Towle@asu.edu]
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 7:50 PM
To: az_vjc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
I guess a question I would pose is: how close is too close? I felt
like I was keeping a safe distance from who I was following last
night but, maybe the person in front of me didn't feel like it was
safe. My problem, if I have one, of following to close might stem
from going over rocks and focusing on the people in front of me and
their line(s). I was, though, very mindful of my lights being in
others mirrors. The factory fog lights plus the rock lights seem to
do a good job of lighting the trail, when you are moving slow.
Hopefully the people in this club can say something nicely if they
think the person behind them, or anybody else, is putting them, or
anybody else, at risk and the proper response will follow. I think we
are adults.
--James
--- In az_vjc@y..., "Stu Olson" wrote:
> I tried using my rock lights last night as trail lights, and for
me, they
> don't project enough light ahead of the vehicle. (Since I was
leading, I
> wasn't worried about shining them on anyone) ;) They do an awesome
job of
> lighting up the immediate vacinity around and under the vehicle
(great for
> the spotter to see what you are rolling over). There wasn't much
(if any)
> moon last night so no help from that source.
>
> Since I have a pair of factory fogs which have a very thin (in the
vertical
> plane) beam, I'm going to angle them down some and rely on them for
the
> trail.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: amstaff@e... [mailto:amstaff@e...]
> Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 6:42 PM
> To: az_vjc@y...
> Subject: [az_vjc] Re: A word or two about Trail Etiquette...
>
>
> Larry makes a valid point. Now that the
> night run season is upon us, it would be a
> good time to invest about $40 in a set of
> rock lights. There's very useful on the trail
> and you won't blind the poor schmoe in fron
> of you.
> Dion
>
>
> --- In az_vjc@y..., jeeperaz@q... wrote:
> > Not here to preach but to inform some that might not know
better....
> >
> > Spacing on the trail:
> >
> > On non-technical trails there is no reason to follow 5ft behind
the
> > person in front of you. Especially on night runs where your
> > headlights are blinding your fellow club member. Of course things
are
> > going to get bunched up at times but we get enough bumper to
bumper
> > on our daily commutes.... no reason to have it on the trail.
> >
> > This goes for hills climbs/decents as well. A number of times
during
> > the past few weeks I've seen someone start up or down a
challenging
> > hill before the person in front of them has made it out of harms
way.
> >
> > Keep your distance.... its not a race to the finish line!
> >
> >
> > Hope everyone enjoys the last bit of the holiday weekend.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > LarryM
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions $2 Million Sweepstakes - Got something to sell?
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions $2 Million Sweepstakes - Got something to sell?
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.