New project from scratch. How to go about VIN.

[zman]

I'm thinking of building a buggy from the ground up. I would like this thing to be street legal. Not that its a DD (will be a trailer queen), but that I want to be able to drive it 10 miles down the road without worring about a ticket. Does one get a old vehicle and use the VIN off of it and go around the "system" or is there a way to get a VIN assigned?

Thanks,

zman

[paparonbo]

I'm sure there is a way to use enough of another vehicle to use its VIN, but I don't know the details. I know that AZDOT will issue you a serial number for newly constructed vehicles.

[Hunter]

Z Man,

It can be done, but you do not want use a VIN from another vehicle. If you get that one cop, your done. Here are somethings I learned, the hard way. If you want to know more, just ask. Be glad to save you the trouble I went through with mine.

Example: Back in 2001 I was pulled over by DPS officer who was on University. My buggy at the time had 100% original frame and 100% complete drivetrain. Just new tube body. He wrote so many freakin tickets. But the kicker was there were the 2 Class 5 felonies, I was looking at ATLEAST 6 months (They were 6 months to 3 years) per each count. I fought it and won, but it still cost me 1000.00 dollars in legal fees and a lawyer. KIssed mynew drivetrain budget away. Still havent gotten it.

I dont remember which exact they were but they were something like...

1) Knowingly operating a vehicle with an altered indentiy.

2) Knowingly changeing a vehicle indenty with intent to decieve.

It was BS and everyone else knew it but I got them none the less.

If you build from the ground up, keep paper work on everything! You will have to prove you own it, not stole a bunch of parts and put them together. You will have to have them come to you or tow it down for a Class 3 inspection, since it will be new, they will make you pay a bond in it, which is 15% of the value THEY WILL estimate if you give them a low number. I consider myself lucky they took my word on 10K for mine. You also pay regstration off the number too.

Also, keep track of your motor work cause if you do that route, you will be assigned current emmision laws and you will need to prove what year your motor is.

You can do the reconstruct method, (which is what I did), but you have to keep parts of the original frame for the ID Numbers. So you can have paper work off the "salavage title" from the orginal (like what I did) then build and they will inspect and give you a new "control number". Example, MIne is considered a 2003 Specail Construction, Jeep Type, but links off the old 1975 Chevy PickUp title for emmissions.

Another thing, I have only found one insurance compnay that would give me liability for it (only thing you will get) and that was Progressive. They do have a "Sand Buggy" Class.

And against what people on here will tell you, or common shade tree law, you WILL NEED a DOT approved glass windsheild. I have the tickets to prove it.

Unfortunatly, it is a huge gray area with what you want to do as I found out. I hear "Oh, you can get away with that" and such. Hell, for almost 3 years I wracked up close to 250 total hours volunteering with the MCSO and was always around cops, never had a problem, nor a windshield. Heck, I even gave Sheriff Joe and a deputy Cheif rides.... Nadda. They didnt know, or care. Then one day...One DPS offcier saw me, and fawked me good.

Check into more or contact me. All above was BS I had to go through.

Best of luck
John k

[xFallen]

Z Man,

It can be done, but you do not want use a VIN from another vehicle. If you get that one cop, your done. Here are somethings I learned, the hard way. If you want to know more, just ask. Be glad to save you the trouble I went through with mine.

Example: Back in 2001 I was pulled over by DPS officer who was on University. My buggy at the time had 100% original frame and 100% complete drivetrain. Just new tube body. He wrote so many freakin tickets. But the kicker was there were the 2 Class 5 felonies, I was looking at ATLEAST 6 months (They were 6 months to 3 years) per each count. I fought it and won, but it still cost me 1000.00 dollars in legal fees and a lawyer. KIssed mynew drivetrain budget away. Still havent gotten it.

I dont remember which exact they were but they were something like...

1) Knowingly operating a vehicle with an altered indentiy.

2) Knowingly changeing a vehicle indenty with intent to decieve.

It was BS and everyone else knew it but I got them none the less.

If you build from the ground up, keep paper work on everything! You will have to prove you own it, not stole a bunch of parts and put them together. You will have to have them come to you or tow it down for a Class 3 inspection, since it will be new, they will make you pay a bond in it, which is 15% of the value THEY WILL estimate if you give them a low number. I consider myself lucky they took my word on 10K for mine. You also pay regstration off the number too.

Also, keep track of your motor work cause if you do that route, you will be assigned current emmision laws and you will need to prove what year your motor is.

You can do the reconstruct method, (which is what I did), but you have to keep parts of the original frame for the ID Numbers. So you can have paper work off the "salavage title" from the orginal (like what I did) then build and they will inspect and give you a new "control number". Example, MIne is considered a 2003 Specail Construction, Jeep Type, but links off the old 1975 Chevy PickUp title for emmissions.

Another thing, I have only found one insurance compnay that would give me liability for it (only thing you will get) and that was Progressive. They do have a "Sand Buggy" Class.

And against what people on here will tell you, or common shade tree law, you WILL NEED a DOT approved glass windsheild. I have the tickets to prove it.

Unfortunatly, it is a huge gray area with what you want to do as I found out. I hear "Oh, you can get away with that" and such. Hell, for almost 3 years I wracked up close to 250 total hours volunteering with the MCSO and was always around cops, never had a problem, nor a windshield. Heck, I even gave Sheriff Joe and a deputy Cheif rides.... Nadda. They didnt know, or care. Then one day...One DPS offcier saw me, and fawked me good.

Check into more or contact me. All above was BS I had to go through.

Best of luck
John k

DMV told me that alterations to the vehicle after a point would require a new registration. I was specifically enquiring about tubing out an existing vehicle incuding cutting the tub off the Jeep. They said this would be considered extensive and may require a reconstruction registration.

Going from Jeep to buggy that looks like a Jeep, even if using same frame and basic chassis, may require new registration, so it'd be best to check first. They were somewhat vague and non-committal.


Barry

[Hunter]

DMV told me that alterations to the vehicle after a point would require a new registration. I was specifically enquiring about tubing out an existing vehicle incuding cutting the tub off the Jeep. They said this would be considered extensive and may require a reconstruction registration.

Going from Jeep to buggy that looks like a Jeep, even if using same frame and basic chassis, may require new registration, so it'd be best to check first. They were somewhat vague and non-committal.


Barry

You are right about that. The hardest thing I found out was there was A LOT "gray area". I would ask the same question to 3 different inspectors and get 3 completly different responses:mad: :confused: .

The laws are geared toward "chop shop" laws. In theory, if you have a pile of number tags and a VIn, and a peice of paper that says you own that pile of tags and VIN, you are good to go. Just might have to get to a judge to make your case.

[4 Wheelers Supply]

Its a pain in the rear. I wound up trailering mine to every trailhead. Then you have to do the turn around or find trails that loops. It sucks. I asked several DVM People questions and never got the same answer. THEY DONT KNOW.

[zman]

Thanks guys, that was the information I was looking for. Right now I am gathering parts and hope to have something in 2-3 years. Looks like I will pass on this POS scout I found for $600 and just start from scratch.

One other question. This is going to be a tube buggy on 40's and hydraulic steer is a must. Is that going to be an issue with the DMV.

zman

[Hunter]

Thanks guys, that was the information I was looking for. Right now I am gathering parts and hope to have something in 2-3 years. Looks like I will pass on this POS scout I found for $600 and just start from scratch.

One other question. This is going to be a tube buggy on 40's and hydraulic steer is a must. Is that going to be an issue with the DMV.

zman

YUP, Hyrdo steering is a no-no. Law basically states you need to have mechanical linkage of some type.. Now, what you can "get away with" on otherhand, is up to how lucky your feelin.:rolleyes:

[AZXJ]

Excellent info John, I have to go through this process when I finish the XJ buggy. Keeping the cowl/firewall and floor pan may be to my advantage. Being that this vehicle will see street use in about 2.5 years.. As my son will be using it to commute to school. I;m curious to find out if they have a point of determination on a vehicle that is cut in half and rebuilt. Guess I'll only know when I take it in for inspection, after the tube work is done.

[Hunter]

Excellent info John, I have to go through this process when I finish the XJ buggy. Keeping the cowl/firewall and floor pan may be to my advantage. Being that this vehicle will see street use in about 2.5 years.. As my son will be using it to commute to school. I;m curious to find out if they have a point of determination on a vehicle that is cut in half and rebuilt. Guess I'll only know when I take it in for inspection, after the tube work is done.


Techincally no. Atleast thats what I have figured out. When I had one inspectorr come out, a young guy, kinda wet behind the hears, I really made him squirm. 2 major points that made me go "hmmm" came up while talking to him....

Point 1 According to the law, if a vehicleis missing ANY ID numbers, it can be impounded (As what happened to mine) Cut offa number you dont know about, you could be in toruble. Might have to go to some lentgh to prove you own it.

Point 2 I used a CJ jeep as an example when I asked the inspector... I said "What I cut off the back half of the frame cause it rusted and rebuild it, would that be ok"?
he repiled yes, "it would as long as there were no numbers attatched to it".
"Ok" I said, "what I cut off 60% of the frame?"
"Should be ok"
"what if I cut off 75 percent of the frame?"
"Uh, I guess so..."
"OK, then, who is to say that I just didnt replace the whole frame but left this 1 foot peice of frame left with number on it?"
"Uh....I would have to check with my Commander"

Point of this exchange, beyond the humor of watchign this guy squrim, was there is not set precentage, or a point where it is deemed "beyond".

I belive ultimatly, if you go to court and in front of judge, and can prove that all the ID numbers report to the VIN, and you have the vin and all the paper work to rpve you own THAT VIN, you are good. With this logic, you should be fine.

Only problem, and one that I had, was once it all came to light, my buggy was considered a whole new vehicle and I had to get a new classifiaction for it, hence no more Short Bed Chevy, hello 2003 "SpecCon". So, the more you keep, the easier it will be to prove it still is a "Jeep 199blah blah" and keep the original title

[mingoglia]

I think I'm just going to get into mountain biking... it's a lot less of a hassle.

[Symon623]

So if you gothrough the inspection process, Pay all the fees, jump through all the hoops? And now your new $50k buggy, that your only in $10k cos you busted your axe for 2-3 years, is registered as a 2006 KARB or what ever they want to call it? DO you have to pass smog laws for this model year?
I want to build up a newer rig. but don't want to deal with all the smog BS for a part time play toy. But still want to be streetable. It would be safer and cleaner than most rigs on the street anyway.

[Linda]

This is not totally on topic, but if you are biulding from the ground up, this site is pretty interesting. BTW, the site owner, the one building the car, lives in the Phoenix area.

http://www.grabercars.com/Mambosite/index.php

[xFallen]

This is not totally on topic, but if you are biulding from the ground up, this site is pretty interesting. BTW, the site owner, the one building the car, lives in the Phoenix area.

http://www.grabercars.com/Mambosite/index.php

That car should be pretty peppy at 125 bph and only 1,400 lbs.

While we're off topic...this from his site made me laugh.

http://www.grabercars.com/gallery2/d/1881-2/bank.gif


Barry

[SrA Nate]

Then one day...One DPS offcier saw me, and fawked me good.

DPS officers love to ruin your day.....deputys and such dont really care unless you piss dem off...believe me, i know this ;)