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View Full Version : Moab Jeepers - take note!



Stu Olson
03-07-2006, 08:01 PM
Some good words from the Blue Ribbon folks (and no, I don't mean the ones that make Devil Man's beer). :D

If you are doing EJS, you want to read this. If you are going to Moab to wheel, you want to read this. If you own a Jeep, you still should read this.


http://www.stu-offroad.com/temp/Spring_2006_Moab_Update.pdf

SavageSun4x4
03-08-2006, 10:37 AM
Good stuff Stu

There are two areas that the antis have in their sights to get closed or partly closed and restricted. To do so would strike a blow to the OHV community and influence its future.

[in no order]
1) Rubicon Trail

2) Moab

They have already made progress on the Rubicon. And I suspect that when Mr Smith dies [founder and owner of some of the property that the Rubicon trail crosses] an all out assault will take place. Which might even include buying his property if it becomes available.

Moab is a tougher hill to climb. Mostly because of the money, we bring not just to Moab but the entire region. Bikers? n hikers don?t bring big dollars, but Jeepers do. The killing or severely restricting EJS would cause many residents wallets to get thin, not counting the city itself. So they are on our side if only for the money.

Words to the wise:
If you plan to attend EJS the week before, week of or week after. The cities make the greatest part of the annual budget those three weeks off driving infractions. Mostly just two, DUI and speeding. They are lax on rigs that are not up to par on various minor infractions such as license plate lights, turn signals, mirrors etc. HOWEVER, violate the DUI or speeding and mumble anything that one might take as a wise-*** remark or display a negative attitude and they will go over your rig with a fine tooth comb and its gonna hurt. But officer, it?s a trailer-queen rig means nothing? If your in the city limits of Moab and you speed, at all, that means much more than about 3-5 mph over, it?s a ticket!

I gleaned this and other good info while sharing a cup o joe with a local deputy sheriff who noticed my Viet Nam Vet sticker. In his final word to the wise, he said, tell your friends they are our guest while they are here and to act like a guest.

DsrtJeeper
03-08-2006, 01:15 PM
Don;
You read my mind! The abundance of drinking fools on the trails needs to stop PERIOD!!! I spent some time in the ER in Moab last year and the alcohol related accidents were overwhelming. The hospital keeps a map of the trails posted in the ER. On that map is statistics of accidents per trail. Those statistics are there for ANYONE to view. While in the ER; I listened to the emergency scanner as cops were struggling with drunks on the streets, Potato Salad Hill and various other areas. The Doctor told me that Potato Salad Hill was closed down due to illegal parking, fights, injuries and mostly drinking every day of the EJS. As I listened to that scanner; I felt for the local cops who were wrestling with crowd control at Potato Salad Hill.

Now if this is going on in town; what do you think is going on at the campgrounds and back trails? There literally was not enough LE last year to control the smaller than usual crowd.

Now combine this with the problems of the Rubicon. Let's see....partying, the landscape littered with human waste and wheelers blazing off the trails and posting pics of it on the web!

Then we have the problem of wheelers doing all these things infront of their children. Yes; our future wheelers! This is how we educate newcomers? Gee; and I wonder where the "redneck mentality" comes from when people think of offroaders?

Trust me folks; there's alot more behind these closings and efforts than enviros. There's the people sick of poor trail etiquette, litter, stray bullets, unneeded dust, crime,ect.... How would you like it if this was all going on in your town or backyard?

Around these parts; it seems to be excepted if you want to sit around the fire, get drunk and run a couple of night runs. :rolleyes: People have been seriously injured driving there Jeeps inebriated and they come out looking like heroes after support is drummed up for the injured party. WTH??? This very club is guilty of sweeping this crap under the carpet.

Like Don posted a long while back; we need to clean up our reputation just like the Harley riders of yesterday did. There was a time that if you rode a bike; you weren't allowed into a restaurant. It was that bad!

There's two easy ways to rid of these problems. Just close off areas or limit them to small offroad parks as witnessed in several states back east. Keep the idiots fenced in and manageable and it makes the locals happy and the LE's job much easier. Don't believe me? Take a trip to Spider Lake, try to wheel "Comp Hill" in Glamis at night or wait in line at an offroad park back east or as close as Texas.

Have you ever thought and wondered what makes an individual become an enviromentalist? I'd venture a guess that many are fed up with the crap they have to endure just to seek a little peace and safety in their own country homes or camping in the desert.

Stu;
I apologize for hijacking your thread, but offroaders need to start adopting your policy of "NO TOLERANCE" on the trail. Just last weekend we had a guest club stay and wheel Florence Junction. I'm friends with one of the senior members and he stated that he couldn't believe in his many visits how many wheelers drink on trail runs here. Here's a club of mature adults who travel all over the country towing there Jeeps from trail to trail behind their motorhomes. They have one very outstanding policy....NO DRINKING on the trail!

Why don't I attend land use meetings?

When we as an unorganized club can admit that we have a problem here and work on a solution within; I'll be glad to attend. When I feel completely certain that everyone represented at that meeting truley does care and are willing to change their ways. You can't just hit these meetings with the attitude that we are doing everything right and the enviros have absolutely no reason to close off lands. There's two sides to every story. For just a moment; put yourself in an outsider's shoes. Drive the back roads, study, watch and wonder. Take a drive down to Table Mesa as if it was your first time. What do you see? Now head to Sycamore Creek and do the same.

I fought the good fight while involved in dirt biking and atv racing. I fought this fight only to have fellow riders make an arse out of me. Has anyone ran figures on what it cost annually to transport and care for offroaders who are injured due to drinking and carelessness? Remember; we share the trails with other offroad enthusiast. We are all part of the same group whether you like it or not.

Check out this link or do your own searches and you'll see that I'm not the only one who thinks this way. Notice the title of this column. It's been changed from "Land Use" to "Land Abuse."
http://jeepaholics.com/landabuse/landabuse.htm

You can hate me and the truth as you sit there in denial, but we do have a problem here. We can work together to rectify the situation or we can sit here and argue as usual. I am aware that there are extreme enviros that have nothing better to do and I pretty much know who is who in this club and others. I realize we have alot of outstanding people represented here, but I also know that one bad apple can ruin it for all of us. The sad truth is that it's much harder for a person like me to find sober wheeling partners than it is to find non sober partners whether it be booze or drugs. Yes; I do drink on occassion off the trails and I've had to be driven home. I'm not a saint. I may seem like a complete arse through my discussions, but those who have wheeled with me know that I'm a caring person.

Anywhoo...please pay attention to these updates like Stu posted and abide by them so as not to lose another beautiful wheeling area. Thanks!

Eric

Woody
03-08-2006, 08:20 PM
Why don't I attend land use meetings?

When we as an unorganized club can admit that we have a problem here and work on a solution within; I'll be glad to attend. When I feel completely certain that everyone represented at that meeting truley does care and are willing to change their ways. You can't just hit these meetings with the attitude that we are doing everything right and the enviros have absolutely no reason to close off lands. There's two sides to every story. For just a moment; put yourself in an outsider's shoes. Drive the back roads, study, watch and wonder. Take a drive down to Table Mesa as if it was your first time. What do you see? Now head to Sycamore Creek and do the same.

I fought the good fight while involved in dirt biking and atv racing. I fought this fight only to have fellow riders make an arse out of me. Has anyone ran figures on what it cost annually to transport and care for offroaders who are injured due to drinking and carelessness? Remember; we share the trails with other offroad enthusiast. We are all part of the same group whether you like it or not.

Check out this link or do your own searches and you'll see that I'm not the only one who thinks this way. Notice the title of this column. It's been changed from "Land Use" to "Land Abuse."
http://jeepaholics.com/landabuse/landabuse.htm

Eric

Eric....I pretty much agree with everything you said in your post, except what's quoted above.

If you use the land, you should be there to defend the land, period.

It doesnt matter that there may be a few bad apples out there.

If we all had that attitude, only the greenies would be there, spouting their BS and getting what they want.

If you don't show up at the meetings......then who's the careless one??

Rick

DsrtJeeper
03-08-2006, 11:17 PM
Eric....I pretty much agree with everything you said in your post, except what's quoted above.

If you use the land, you should be there to defend the land, period.

It doesnt matter that there may be a few bad apples out there.

If we all had that attitude, only the greenies would be there, spouting their BS and getting what they want.

If you don't show up at the meetings......then who's the careless one??

Rick

My point exactly. I've kind of given up and am even considering selling the Jeep. I use to be a regular at Glamis and took a stand to preserve certain liberties there. I literally hooked up with a church group mixed with Phx PD officers so I knew my family would be around sober and responsible individuals while at camp and on group rides.

I once attended a land use meeting involving the dunes in Yuma. Many of the Yuma residents were furious with the offroaders and asked us to go back to Phx and Cali. They did not want us there and all offroaders were considered one group. By the end of that meeting; I really felt for those people. There was one person representing the greenies there and he did not even have to speak because the fed up locals did his job for him.

After witnessing several unnecessary deaths at the dunes along with countless acts of violence; I decided it was no place for a family. The two years that I've gone to Moab; I feel the same way. :( Irresponsible offroading is fueling the enviros fire and very few people have the balls to speak up about it. Frankly; I'm tired of it. How can we expect the future offroaders to preserve our sport when their fathers are setting no examples?

I'm tired of going to bat for people who do not appreciate the freedoms we are given. Maybe my way of thinking is incorrect and I should attend meetings for the benefit of those who really give a damn. Right now; I'm teetering on the fence.

I challenge each and every wheeler out there to adopt a no tolerance policy towards trail abuse, littering and partying on the trail. I know of at least three club members who smoke pot while wheeling and many others who use our sport as an excuse to get inebriated. I hear the reports folks and I'm well aware of what is happening on our trails. Better yet; can anyone point me in the direction of a local club who has a no drinking policy while on the trail? :confused:

Thanks for keeping it civil Woody. :)

My1stJeep
03-09-2006, 10:00 AM
Eric,

While much of what you said I agree with too, not showing up does not help either. Everyone in that room echoes what you said. We want clean safe trails to run on. We are just as frustrated by land abuse as those who say closing it is the only way, which is not true.

You said one option to deal with it is to close it. Problem with that is that the irresponsible ones will cross past that sign, cut the fence, move the rocks and will still go down those trails and those areas, and then who is keeping them from the destruction? At least with responsible wheelers in sight or potentially in sight you might have them curtail their actions a bit, but if they know no one is around imagine how crazy they will get.

We and every responsible club out there have admitted there is a problem, these meetings are to talk with the land management so we can work with them to address these issues and how best to resolve them. Not all meetings go as planned. In addition the greenies come with a close it all attitude, and in the past we used to come with an meet in the middle, we lost more land that way. Now we start off with a leave it all open, justify how closing it will help and then we negotiate.

As for drinking on the trail here is a snip from the AZVJC site:
We then ordered yet another round, to tackle the questions of rules. Well, after the third or fourth round we decided unanimously...we don't need no stinkin rules. Actually, we did decide on some basics...that JimL posted on the original web site. Tread lightly, don't drink on the trail runs (after is fine), no spam, keep things Jeep and trail related...stuff like that. Most importantly, we decided that we should have no dues.

Now that said people are adults and get to make their own decisions, as you have the right to make yours. You can set up trail runs and state right in them that drinking and illegal activity will not be tolerated. You have the right to start your own organized club with your own rules, many have. Here you can even start with SWA (Sober Wheelers of Arizona) and then just frequent here for information. Either way I don't believe the AZVJC has ever condoned drinking and driving.

Your right we have to clean up our image. That is why we are attending charitable cars shows to help in the community, take donations for various cahrities, participate in parades, have had members create coloring books to distribute free of charge to children at these events that have a responsible OHV message, why many of us took the time to get Tread Lightly Trained, are trying to organize events to hand out Tread Lightly and other responsible OHV material, take the time to attend land use meetings, participate in area clean ups, reach out to other organizations like the shooters for clean ups, etc... There are alot of efforts taking place to change opinions. While we may sway alot in the general population, those like the lady in Yuma who hate us to that extreme will never be swayed. Just like any topic you will have hard liners on both sides and many who say meet in the middle, but participation no matter where you stand is critical, not participating will not help.

rockwerks
03-09-2006, 10:43 AM
Eric I totally understand where you are coming from........I feel that escaping from the problems do nothing but set a worse example for our children. Most of us here follow the rules, wheel safe and sane and asssit as we can to protect the outdoors we travel, hiding your head in the sand does not help, you being on the trail, reporting abuses to the correct authorities and helping to teach those who digress the error of their ways is what we all need to do. How do people learn best? by example........I only once have been on a trail with a group that abused alcohol and trashed a trail while out.......and it was not anyone from this site.....

I know we have a few guys who have a beer or 2 while on the trail for a full day of wheelin but have never seen anyone impaired.

When I go out I try to always pick up trash and bign out more than when I arrived at the trail.......If I see a spill I pull out the cleaning kit. The little things you do while on the trail teach others without ever saying a word.

I also have called the forest service and BLM to report those who feel the need to tear stuff up and have gone to court 2 times as a witness and for citizens arrest.............dont hide...........make a stand

1BLKJP
03-09-2006, 05:17 PM
I'm tired of going to bat for people who do not appreciate the freedoms we are given. Maybe my way of thinking is incorrect and I should attend meetings for the benefit of those who really give a damn. Right now; I'm teetering on the fence.

I challenge each and every wheeler out there to adopt a no tolerance policy towards trail abuse, littering and partying on the trail. I know of at least three club members who smoke pot while wheeling and many others who use our sport as an excuse to get inebriated. I hear the reports folks and I'm well aware of what is happening on our trails. Better yet; can anyone point me in the direction of a local club who has a no drinking policy while on the trail? :confused:

Why don't you attend land use meetings and put the time into supporting the sport for you and your family and not for or because of anyone else? I participate and work on the things I do because I love wheelin and because I love the back country. Not because some guy is drunk or someone smokes pot. I could care less what they do. But me I know what I do and I that I want to fight the fight to wheel. So do it for yourself and your son who can grow up learning the values you have described above. The more people that do and see that then the better off future generations will be.

And as far as you hearing reports, well that may be or may not be absolute truth coming at you my friend. You can only believe what you see and not what others say no matter who they are.

Stu Olson
03-09-2006, 08:00 PM
Why don't you attend land use meetings and put the time into supporting the sport for you and your family and not for or because of anyone else? I participate and work on the things I do because I love wheelin and because I love the back country. Not because some guy is drunk or someone smokes pot. I could care less what they do. But me I know what I do and I that I want to fight the fight to wheel. So do it for yourself and your son who can grow up learning the values you have described above. The more people that do and see that then the better off future generations will be.

Jack hit it square on the head. I attend the land use meetings because I want to continue wheelin.....if someone who doesn't attend the meetings gets to wheel because of my efforts, so be it. Obviously, I won't receive the same benefit from them....but then again, I'm not looking for nor expecting it either.

Eric....do it for yourself, not them. Go to the land use meetings because you want to wheel.....who cares about a stoner or a drunk (I sure don't). They will always be there....you will always have that 10%, regardless. If you want your hobby and life screwed up and put on hold because of them, I guess that is your right....but you don't have to. IMO, the responsible folks outnumber the *****holes 10:1.....focus on the positives. :)

And one last comment....I'm sorry your experiences in Moab have been so negative. My trip in May will make visit # 8 for me, IIRC. I think I may have actually said something to someone on one of those trips in regards to beer, I honestly don't recall....maybe it was Donna that told them to put it away or find another group to hang with. But I do know that the 20 odd people I normally share my trails with during the week's visit have no problem staying straight and sober on the trail.

Wind_Danzer
03-09-2006, 09:10 PM
And as far as you hearing reports, well that may be or may not be absolute truth coming at you my friend. You can only believe what you see and not what others say no matter who they are.

Just want to touch on this a little bit. I've seen plenty with my own eyes out here in the little over a year and a 1/2 and I have to say a lot wouldn't ever be allowed to happen back east. After awhile of hearing the reports too it makes me wonder something. If a lot of people have similar reports on issues as drinking and drugging on the trail, wouldn't that suggest a problem, no matter who you heard it from? You can say "believe only what you see and never anything you hear no matter who they are" but that leads me to believe that a person with that train of thought would rather bury their head in the sand then confront a big issue that was brought up by Eric.

As I said last year when this was brought up before, the pay to play parks would blacklist you if you even carried alcohol into the park in a cooler (as for drugs, well the cops were called and you went bye-bye) and the pay to play was the only way to go there unless you had a friend with a lot of private land. I also said I had to change my train of thought once out here or I wouldn't be wheeling much if at all. I've come to the conclusion that if someone wants to have one or two over the course of a afternoon, or during lunch that's fine. Just don't pound them to "enhance" the experience and if you do, I will not take my Jeep out with you as I don't want to get myself into a situation that will impact me negatively. It's bad enough that last year we could have very well lost someone in the club on a run I was on if that person didn't end up in a ditch/hole/dip in the trail as a Jeep rolled over him. Lack of judgment and his impairment could have very well done him in.

That said, I have met many cool people that will limit their consumption to after trail running around the fire or to only a few over the course of the day on the trail. These same people also accept women wheelers where you didn't find that very often if at all back east. I thank them for that. But there are those that just can't seem to control themselves.

I think if anything at this point, Copper Stickers and strict enforcement of drug/alcohol laws in our parks and on our BLM lands will be the only way to avoid this becoming more of a major issue. Are the wheelers the only ones, hell no.... but we are a large group and if we stop being so selfish and so self-absorbed in the way that "I want my beer or my hit while I'm driving this 4+ trail while I'm on 2 wheels and no one can stop me" then maybe, just maybe that term "hypocrite" wouldn't be throw at us while we try and get everyone to join in and understand our points of view.

As I always say and I firmly believe, one person will ruin it for the rest of us. Don't end up being that person as you will not get any sympathy from me.