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azdesertrhino
02-07-2006, 01:17 PM
First duty is to yourself

By Dimitri Vassilaros
TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Sunday, February 5, 2006


The law says you must act like a coward. In your own home. Even when your life is threatened.
Many states have criminal-friendly "duty to retreat" laws. A victim in his house is mandated to retreat from an attacker until he is cornered. Only then is the prey allowed to use lethal force on the predator. Prosecutors in those states have been known to victimize the victim (such as charging him with manslaughter) who prefers to fire back rather than to back off.

The National Rifle Association has been trying to end the insanity state by state.

Florida came to its senses last year. It enacted a law based on the "Castle Doctrine" -- that one's home is one's castle. A person now is not legally required to be hunted down room by room by an intruder before the victim pulls the trigger. The law allows the victim to shoot back without fear of being prosecuted for being overzealous about protecting his life. And it prohibits criminals from suing their more aggressive victims. All their victims, actually.

"Somebody should not be twice victimized, first by the assailant and then by the legal system trying to destroy his life," says Larry Pratt, executive director of Gun Owners of America, the largest organization representing gun owners after the NRA.

But the Florida law does more.

Car-jackers beware; now one's car is his mobile castle. And better still, if a victim is not in a home or car, now he legally can use deadly force. Sunshine State criminals without a death wish might want to consider career counseling. Or take Horace Greeley's advice to go west. But if they do, they had better hurry.

Wyoming is the latest battleground. The NRA is lobbying there and in 11 other states to repeal duty-to-retreat laws.

Pennsylvanians have that so-called duty if they are attacked outside the home, according to Kim Stolfer, legislative committee chairman of the Allegheny County Sportsmen's League. House Bill 2213 takes aim at the "duty" and prohibits prosecution for defending yourself. It also prohibits lawsuits by a criminal who was injured while attacking the victim. And it prohibits lawsuits by the criminal's survivors if the victim gunned him down.

Arthur C. Hayhoe, executive director of the Florida Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, essentially spoke for liberalism when he said in published reports that "What they've done is legalize manslaughter here in Florida. It (the new law) promotes irresponsible, aggressive and even illegal use of firearms."

Why are we even having this debate?

How could anyone actually believe that you should not defend yourself until you've run out of room to flee? When did it become a person's duty to scurry into the basement like a ****roach fleeing the exterminator?

A duty-to-retreat law is the ultimate debasement of man.

It means that your life is not worth protecting except as a last resort. It also means that your intruder's life is worth protecting except as a last resort. You are little better than your tormentor.

The Castle Doctrine rightly says that your bricks and mortar are sacrosanct. But is there an equivalent doctrine for your flesh and blood?

You have no "duty" to retreat when threatened in your house, car or anywhere else. Your life is no less precious when you are outdoors. A man's home is his castle. A man's duty is to himself.

TomHatch
02-07-2006, 07:09 PM
AZ has no retreat law.

azdesertrhino
02-07-2006, 07:57 PM
AZ has no retreat law.

This new legislation would make some changes in the laws. Link below.

According to what was taught in my CCW class, if you are capable of retreat, that is what you are to do.



http://virtualgunclub.com/showthread.php?t=341

TomHatch
02-08-2006, 09:27 PM
I have a .pdf copy of the CCW Instructors Manual put out by DPS. The manual clearly states that some States have retreat laws and that AZ does not. I also read in the manual that not retreating when you clearly can MAY negate a self-defense claim. Maybe that is why your instructor told you to retreat if possible. It is legally safer and no one gets shot. If you would like a copy of the manual PM me.

TRobertsRN
02-08-2006, 09:42 PM
An instructor of mine who will remain nameless told me "make sure they are dead and armed in the last room of you house before you call the police". An elderly friend of my mom's once shot an intruder. She called the police. The lady officer who answered the phone said, make sure he is in the house and not in your yard and call me back.

My advice is until they change the law do what you have to in order for you and your family to stay alive, and leave no witnesses.

azdesertrhino
02-09-2006, 04:10 AM
I have a .pdf copy of the CCW Instructors Manual put out by DPS. The manual clearly states that some States have retreat laws and that AZ does not. I also read in the manual that not retreating when you clearly can MAY negate a self-defense claim. Maybe that is why your instructor told you to retreat if possible. It is legally safer and no one gets shot. If you would like a copy of the manual PM me.


I'm sure that was the reasoning for the "retreat if you can" explanation. The problem with the law right now, as I understand it, is if some raving lunatic crack head busts through the locked door of you house and you drop him in the living room and it turns out he "mistook your house for his" :rolleyes: , you're going to spend time in the iron bar hotel. The new "Castle Doctrine" bill changes that if I am reading it correctly.
My feeling is if they bust through my locked door, blow them right back through it. :D

TomHatch
02-10-2006, 08:05 AM
An instructor of mine who will remain nameless told me "make sure they are dead and armed in the last room of you house before you call the police". An elderly friend of my mom's once shot an intruder. She called the police. The lady officer who answered the phone said, make sure he is in the house and not in your yard and call me back.

My advice is until they change the law do what you have to in order for you and your family to stay alive, and leave no witnesses.

What if they were not armed? What if they were running at you in the dark in your house? Was your instructor suggesting that you should find an arm and place it on the body? That is bad advice and unethical.

TRobertsRN
02-10-2006, 09:05 AM
What if they were not armed? What if they were running at you in the dark in your house? Was your instructor suggesting that you should find an arm and place it on the body? That is bad advice and unethical.


It is not just unethical it is illegal, immoral, and a sin. That being said if I am faced with going to jail or being sued by a criminals family I will commit that sin without feeling any guilt.

For some perspective on my usual honesty I stole something once. I was 10 and gave into peer pressure. It was a candy bar. After me and my friend ate what we stole on the way home I went to another store and bought that same candy bar and gave it to the manager of the store I stole one from. I told him what I had done and asked him not to tell my family. He didn't.

TomHatch
02-10-2006, 09:54 AM
It is not just unethical it is illegal, immoral, and a sin. That being said if I am faced with going to jail or being sued by a criminals family I will commit that sin without feeling any guilt.

For some perspective on my usual honesty I stole something once. I was 10 and gave into peer pressure. It was a candy bar. After me and my friend ate what we stole on the way home I went to another store and bought that same candy bar and gave it to the manager of the store I stole one from. I told him what I had done and asked him not to tell my family. He didn't.

You will only go to jail (criminal charge) if you can not prove self defense; however, even if a criminal is armed and threatening you can be civilly sued by his/her survivors. As long as you can prove self defense you avoid criminal prosecution, but civil prosecution is a different story. You will look guilty if you tamper with or plant evidence and a civil suit only requires a preponderance of evidence. Personally, I think it is better to understand the law and act accordingly.

TRobertsRN
02-10-2006, 12:07 PM
For me the key word is "prove" self defence. I unfortunately have seen in civil and criminal court that what is proved can depend on who lies the best. When it comes to my liberty the way the laws currently are I don't trust the court system.