AZ Shooting Program under attack

[SavageSun4x4]

Arizona Republic, Monday 16 January 2006:

Arizona 4-H members temporary lost their shooting program for 3 days in December. The Board of Regents, which oversees the University of Arizona, sponsored 4-H decided to end the statewide after members of the board were alerted to the existence of the long time program. Outraged participants and parents persuaded the Board to reinstate the program after the Board received a flood of emails.

Anne Barton, Board of Regents spokeswoman said ‘the board wasn’t comfortable with the university being responsible for the guns’. Participants and clubs use and maintain their own guns, UA as the program sponsor would be legally responsible if there was an accident.

The program teaches responsible firearm use and marksmanship with .22 cal rifles, air pistols, air rifles, archery, muzzle loading arms and shot guns.

About 1000 kids from 11 Arizona counties participated during the 2004-2005 year.

Anne Barton is not sure of the program’s future. The board has asked UA to look into whether the program can continue WITHOUT the school bearing legal responsibility.

[Jan - 98 TJ]

The program is back up and running. The Board of Regents took so much flack, they did a big backstep after a letter campaign was started against their decision.

[SavageSun4x4]

The program is back up and running. The Board of Regents took so much flack, they did a big backstep after a letter campaign was started against their decision.
I said that, but the problem is they are looking at it again to see if they can close it.

[TRobertsRN]

What are they thinking? They don't want to be involved with a program that promotes safe gun use due to fear of liability?

What would their liability be if someone who lost the benifit of gun safety training accidentally took their own life or someone eles's?

They should be shouting from the roof tops that they are concerned with and involved in promoting the reduction of injuries to children via guns.

I am a U of A alum, how do I get in touch with these people? If they drop this program they should expect the public to know they are refusing to promote gun safety and reducing gun deaths in children.

[xFallen]

What are they thinking? They don't want to be involved with a program that promotes safe gun use due to fear of liability?


I am pretty sure it is because they are small minded dimwits. This is an ill-founded knee-jerk reaction to a non-existent problem.

I am curious -- when was the last time a 4H member shot themselves or someone else, or otherwise put life or property in jeopardy due to careless handling of the guns? I am sure it has happened but I can't seem to find a lot to support this as a dangerous activity.

Oh...guess what? They don't use live ammo. Maybe that's why nobody ever gets hurt. You think? Good freakin' lord...these crack heads need a new occupation and leave the excellent 4-H club activities alone.

http://www.kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=4367606

Why don't they focus their energies on keeping their atheletes and other students from abusing illegal drugs, excess drinking and rape and murder? Oh. Sorry. That might actually make sense...what was I thinking...

[azdesertrhino]

I am pretty sure it is because they are small minded dimwits. This is an ill-founded knee-jerk reaction to a non-existent problem.

I am curious -- when was the last time a 4H member shot themselves or someone else, or otherwise put life or property in jeopardy due to careless handling of the guns? I am sure it has happened but I can't seem to find a lot to support this as a dangerous activity.

Oh...guess what? They don't use live ammo. Maybe that's why nobody ever gets hurt. You think? Good freakin' lord...these crack heads need a new occupation and leave the excellent 4-H club activities alone.

http://www.kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=4367606

Why don't they focus their energies on keeping their atheletes and other students from abusing illegal drugs, excess drinking and rape and murder? Oh. Sorry. That might actually make sense...what was I thinking...

Hey xFallen, don't hold back, tell us how you feel!! (JUST KIDDING!!)
One of your comments got me thinking. I wonder what the numbers show regarding gun accidents among children divided into 2 groups. Those that have had gun instruction and education and those that have not. I'm sure there is a large difference. I don't understand why people can't see that gun education for children is a good thing! IMHO!!

[TRobertsRN]

How do you pratice marksmanship with no live ammo in a .22 rifle?

You stated before that you are a gun owner. I gather you have never had instruction in "dry fire". This is a useful tool in the learning curve of accuracy later in instruction and early related to instruction.

Initially going through the motions of shooting without ammo or ammo that is not live to teach guns are not toys, shooting technique (aiming, breathing, trigger squeeze, safe operation, safe unloading, safe cleaning, when to get an adult and so on.

The typical learning curve particulary in hand guns is such that most people are fairly accurate the first time and for a while after that (women and girls usually better than boys and men). With little or no instruction it is much like just pointing your finger. As the student gets more instruction they are thinking more about breathing, squeezing the trigger, proper sight use, wind and they start to antisapate the gun kicking. Scores go down at this time. During this period it is important to promote relaxation and use random dry fire. The student is handed a pistol that they don't know if the round is live or not. As a suprise to them when they click on a non live round their hand jerks up as if the gun fired. With practic this is eliminated.

By the way I did not see your response to what your specific views of what firearms we should or should not be allowed to own, or what your proposed solution to child dead due to firearms is.

Tom

[TRobertsRN]

This is a useful tool in the learning curve of accuracy later in instruction and early related to instruction. Tom

Sorry forgot to proofread. That should have read "This is a useful tool in the learning curve of accuracy later in instruction and early related to safety".

[Antman]

Sorry forgot to proofread. That should have read "This is a useful tool in the learning curve of accuracy later in instruction and early related to safety".

I learned to shoot when I was about 10. I grew up in farm and ranch country and my Dad, Great Grand Dad and Great Uncle taught me to shoot and the "safety Rules". I learned to shoot on a 12 gauge shotgun and a 22 rifle. The shotgun was for birds and rabbits and the 22 was for squirrels. I never shot a pistol until I was in the military. After the military, my father in law taught me how to shoot a pistol and dry firing and breathing was a big part of it. I now have one 45 acp that I have fired over 50,000 rounds through. I have also taught both of my sons and my wife these same techniques, along with the "safety". one of the things I teach is, I have a gun cabinet in my house and even today my 30 year old son will ask my permission before even opening the door to it. Enough rambling. We need to teach every kid the RULES of gun safety and it should be taught in the public schools. If a kid knows not to touch a gun without adult supervision there will be a lot less accidents.:mad:

[SavageSun4x4]

UPDATE
Seems we have friends at the top. An insider who has asked to remain anonymous has contacted me. In our discussion, they provided the following information:

In the course of a routine audit some issues were discovered that would give any gun owner heartburn let alone a University.

• 12 guns stolen or otherwise unaccounted for
• 2 guns sold
• No current inventory
• Volunteers had guns in their possession
• Gun shops were holding guns
• No controls as to where guns were or who had them

What should have been an afternoon effort turned into a 3 month search and rescue.

When the gun program was set up, there were very strict guidelines drawn up by the UA Police Department for the storage and handling of weapons on campus. They required a locked cabinet, all guns in one location, with only one person having key access. All agreed to this including the individual in charge of the program.

However, the person running the program had not followed UA policies, which led to the issues discovered and a recommendation to end the program.

I can certainly understand the issues and the typical knee-jerk reaction. Like most government-based organizations, instead of fixing the problem by eliminating the person in charge, they reacted by abolishing the program. Better to bury it than to deal with it.

Clearly, the program ended up with more than just a black mark and a smudge on its face. It’s going to take someone to get in there and take charge.

As Paul Harvey sez, ‘that is the rest of the story’.

[AZG23]

remember not to dryfire a rimfire...it will break the firing pin or can damage the breech face...just didnt want anyone messing up their .22's....:)