Firearms Refresher

[SavageSun4x4]

1. An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.
2. A gun in the hand is better than a cop on the phone.
3. Colt; The original point and click interface.
4. Gun control is not about guns; it's about control.
5. If guns are outlawed, can we use swords?
6. If guns cause crime, then pencils cause misspelled words.
7. " Free" men do not ask permission to bear arms.
8. If you don't know your rights you don't have any.
9. Those who trade liberty for security have neither.
10. The United States Constitution (c) 1791. All Rights reserved.
11. What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand?
12. The Second Amendment is in place in case the politicians ignore the others.
13. 64,999,987 firearms owners killed no one yesterday.
14. Guns only have two enemies: rust and politicians.
15. Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety.
16. You don't shoot to kill; you shoot to stay alive.
17. 911 - government sponsored Dial-a-Prayer.
18. Assault is a behavior, not a device.
19. Criminals love gun control -- it makes their jobs safer.
20. If guns cause crime, then matches cause arson.
21. Only a government that is afraid of its citizens tries to control them.
22. You only have the rights you are willing to fight for.
23. Enforce the "gun control laws" we have, don't make more.
24 When you remove the people's right to bear arms, you create slaves.
25. The American Revolution would never have happened with gun control.
26. If guns cause crime , then spoons made Rosie O' Donnell fat.

[FrenchChili]

5. If guns are outlawed, can we use swords?



Miracle Blade Knives ...big long kitchen knives!!!!!

_____
(@@ )
( L )
*

[SavageSun4x4]

Miracle Blade Knives ...big long kitchen knives!!!!!

_____
(@@ )
( L )
*

Just stop by Ron's Popeil house over in Paradise Valley and he will give you a set of those Miracle Blades:D

[lancetkenyon]

JP, just don't hide the guns from kids. They WILL find them, and when they do, will think it's a toy. Or curiousity will get them. Show them what they can do, and educate them with it. Let them know it is NOT allowed for them to touch when you aren't around. My kids both know about them. Oldest is 14 and has had hunter ed, and a gun safety course. Youngest is 3, and absolutely knows guns are a "No-No". Won't even touch a bullet or shell, even if I ask her to bring it to me. Then I praise her and make a big fuss over her for doing good. When she is 5, it's off to the shooting range we will go. My oldest is actually a MUCH safer hunting partner than some of my buddies. She has handled firearms for almost 10 years now. Education is the answer, in my honest opinion.

[TRobertsRN]

My idea of gun control.

My last 10 rounds went through the little round spotter in the ten ring standing with an M-1 Grande from the 200 yard line on a windy day.

I think dad still has the spotter.

[xFallen]

Your right. However, I am not worried about the 'owner' I am worried about is kids...

FACT: Among 26 industrialized nations, 86% of gun deaths among children under age 15 occurred in the United States.
- Provided by the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence

FACT: Contrary to popular belief, young children do possess the physical strength to fire a gun: 25% of 3 to 4 year olds, 70% of 5 to 6 year olds, and 90% of 7 to 8 year olds can fire most handguns.
- Naureckas, SM, Christoffel, KK, et al. Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine, 1995

A couple of other facts...

FACT: Taxpayers pay more than 85% of the medical cost for treatment of firearm-related injuries.
- Martin M, et al. "The Cost of Hospitalization for Firearm Injuries." JAMA. Vol 260, November 25, 1998, pp 3048, and Ordog et al. "Hospital Costs of Firearm Injuries." Abstract. Journal of Trauma. February 1995, p1)

FACT: While handguns account for only one-third of all firearms owned in the United States, they account for more than two-thirds of all firearm-related deaths each year. A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in a homicide, suicide or unintentional shooting than to be used in self-defense.
- Kellerman AL, Lee RK, Mercy JA, et al. "The Epidemiological Basis for the Prevention of Firearm Injuries." Annu. Rev. Public Health. 1991; 12:17-40


Sorry to say that there really is only one statistic that makes any sense there. I am seriously interested in these, bt without the contextual data to back them up they are absolutely useless. Percentages by themselves are of little use. Now, show the base numbers from which the percentages derive, or, put them in a context whee it is self-evident, or use them on a value where the quantity is implied and we're golden.

The only alleged fact above that has any utility is the one about a child's ability to pull a trigger. The rest are totally meaningless.

For example, here is a quote from an article written by a physician in an article dated 2000: (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2000/12/23/225251.shtml)

"When anti-gun activists list the number of deaths per year from firearms, they neglect to mention that 60 percent of the 30,000 figure they often use are suicides. They also fail to mention that at least three-quarters of the 12,000 homicides are criminals killing other criminals in disputes over illicit drugs, or police shooting criminals engaged in felonies. Subtracting those, we are left with no more than 3,000 deaths that I think most would consider truly lamentable."

Now compare that to the 100,000 or so deaths caused by physicians annually. Hrm. Now obviously physicians are not going to be outlawed. What we don't see are how many patients there really are, nor the context in which these 100,000 died, nor how many were saved in comparison.

You can see how knowing the actual numbers makes a huge difference.

Again, I am truly interested in the facts. What is asserted to be fact above may well be factual, but a reasonable individual is unable to assess that as they are presented, therefore making them useless. They are designed to promote an unrealistic or inflammatory view of the real situation.

I want to see statistics, let's just have them quoted sensibly and where possible with sources.


Barry

[treeofliberty]

Your right. However, I am not worried about the 'owner' I am worried about is kids...

FACT: Among 26 industrialized nations, 86% of gun deaths among children under age 15 occurred in the United States.
- Provided by the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence

FACT: Contrary to popular belief, young children do possess the physical strength to fire a gun: 25% of 3 to 4 year olds, 70% of 5 to 6 year olds, and 90% of 7 to 8 year olds can fire most handguns.
- Naureckas, SM, Christoffel, KK, et al. Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine, 1995

A couple of other facts...

FACT: Taxpayers pay more than 85% of the medical cost for treatment of firearm-related injuries.
- Martin M, et al. "The Cost of Hospitalization for Firearm Injuries." JAMA. Vol 260, November 25, 1998, pp 3048, and Ordog et al. "Hospital Costs of Firearm Injuries." Abstract. Journal of Trauma. February 1995, p1)

FACT: While handguns account for only one-third of all firearms owned in the United States, they account for more than two-thirds of all firearm-related deaths each year. A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in a homicide, suicide or unintentional shooting than to be used in self-defense.
- Kellerman AL, Lee RK, Mercy JA, et al. "The Epidemiological Basis for the Prevention of Firearm Injuries." Annu. Rev. Public Health. 1991; 12:17-40

In the same timeframes, how many children died from drowning in their parent's pools? Where's the outcry to ban pools? You don't need a pool. Most child pool-related drownings occur in the U.S. It is criminal for the United States to ignore this problem.

Maybe if parents started parenting their children, instead of letting Playstation do it, many of these problems go way down. Allowing a child unsupervised access to a loaded firearm, or pool, or motorized scooter, will likely result in tradegy.

Address the problem, not the object.

[TRobertsRN]

No one has cried out to ban cars either. Neither possession of pools or cars nor health care are in the constitution but arms are.

If my neighbor kills a child in an auto accident should my car be taken away from me?

If my neighbor's child drowns in his pool am I required to fill mine in and never again swim with my grandson?

If my neighbor votes for an idiot and the idiot gets elected should my right to vote be taken away.

If my neighbor gives AIDS to someone should I be required never to have sex again.

If my neighbor leaves a handgun in plain site at home with a child who has never been educated about safety and the child accidentally kill them self, should I never be allowed to own a firearm? MY ANSWER IS NO.







I like my friends idea. Every child in america should be required to take a hunter safety course, with review each year. Reguardless of whether there is or ever will be a gun in the house. As a child I knew where the guns were in the house, I knew they were loaded and I knew I was to never touch one without an adult and I never did.

[RokNRich]

I like my friends idea. Every child in america should be required to take a hunter safety course, with review each year. Reguardless of whether there is or ever will be a gun in the house. As a child I knew where the guns were in the house, I knew they were loaded and I knew I was to never touch one without an adult and I never did.

Damm straight, not only once, several times throughout the years, say 1st grade, then again in 4th, 7th, and 10th. Hell, they are teaching how to put condoms on........

[TRobertsRN]

Damm straight, not only once, several times throughout the years, say 1st grade, then again in 4th, 7th, and 10th. Hell, they are teaching how to put condoms on........

2nd best use of a condom. Covering the end of your barrel in a water crossing.

[SavageSun4x4]

Your right. However, I am not worried about the 'owner' I am worried about is kids...

FACT: Among 26 industrialized nations, 86% of gun deaths among children under age 15 occurred in the United States.
- Provided by the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence

FACT: Contrary to popular belief, young children do possess the physical strength to fire a gun: 25% of 3 to 4 year olds, 70% of 5 to 6 year olds, and 90% of 7 to 8 year olds can fire most handguns.
- Naureckas, SM, Christoffel, KK, et al. Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine, 1995

A couple of other facts...

FACT: Taxpayers pay more than 85% of the medical cost for treatment of firearm-related injuries.
- Martin M, et al. "The Cost of Hospitalization for Firearm Injuries." JAMA. Vol 260, November 25, 1998, pp 3048, and Ordog et al. "Hospital Costs of Firearm Injuries." Abstract. Journal of Trauma. February 1995, p1)

FACT: While handguns account for only one-third of all firearms owned in the United States, they account for more than two-thirds of all firearm-related deaths each year. A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in a homicide, suicide or unintentional shooting than to be used in self-defense.
- Kellerman AL, Lee RK, Mercy JA, et al. "The Epidemiological Basis for the Prevention of Firearm Injuries." Annu. Rev. Public Health. 1991; 12:17-40

You quote several supposed 'facts'. However, Brady and JAMA have been discredited so many times I am embarrassed for them. I do know there is a Professor that has done EXTENSIVE research on guns and gun laws. He is a noted authority on this subject, and made fools of the aforementioned groups on more than one occasion. John Lott. http://www.johnrlott.com/ http://www.johnlott.org/ http://www.tsra.com/LottPage.htm

His works are extensively used by every reputable organization in the US and internationally.

If the facts you presented are indeed correct, I do not know, but just reading them, I have doubts, John Lott will have it sorted out. As I remember the JAMA study(s) have been discredited many times over.

The fact addressing the ability of children to fire a firearm, most likely true.

The fact ‘Among 26 industrialized nations, 86% of gun deaths among children under age 15 occurred in the United States.’ My money says that must be correct because only the US has the freedom to own guns.

A note of caution: The topic of guns, gun safety, and gun control is a sea adrift of more falsehoods than probably any topic out there. Do your research carefully, very carefully or will fall overboard into a sea of falsehoods, deceit and flagrant dishonesty by what is believed reputable sources.

[SavageSun4x4]

Damm straight, not only once, several times throughout the years, say 1st grade, then again in 4th, 7th, and 10th. Hell, they are teaching how to put condoms on........
X2

My Dad took my sister and myself out when we were kids around 5 or so. I remember it like yesterday. He brought some fruit and a pistol, shotgun and a rifle. He then shot them to show us the danger and harm they could inflict. He then allowed us to show them to know and feel what it was like.

Sadly, even tho the NRA offers gun safety for schools, the Eddie Eagle course, most schools do not allow it. It is my belief that when kids get hurt with guns its because they have been taught safety.

[Stu Olson]

FACT: While handguns account for only one-third of all firearms owned in the United States, they account for more than two-thirds of all firearm-related deaths each year. A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in a homicide, suicide or unintentional shooting than to be used in self-defense.
- Kellerman AL, Lee RK, Mercy JA, et al. "The Epidemiological Basis for the Prevention of Firearm Injuries." Annu. Rev. Public Health. 1991; 12:17-40
IMO, the problem with fact statements like that is they are presented to provide the person writing them with a point they want stressed. They are not written to provide the reader with the entire truth.

My question.....while a gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in a homicide, suicide....blah, blah, blah,... self defense.....how many times more likely is that gun used for hunting or recreational shooting than it is to kill commit a homicide, suicide, etc.? My money is that it is a few orders of magnitude over 22.

Many people get so sucked into these BS "fact statements"..... Bah, bah, bah....follow the sheepherder. :rolleyes:

[azrubyman]

Firearm ownership is our god given right as Americans IMO.
~47,000 Innocent Americans were slaughtered last year. Many, many of them children and women. All were butchered on our nations highways! 100s of thousands more maimed.
Where the f*** is JAMA and Reagans favorite vegetable on that issue? :mad:
Ken

[SavageSun4x4]

Lets look at the supposed fact:
'FACT: While handguns account for only one-third of all firearms owned in the United States, they account for more than two-thirds of all firearm-related deaths each year. A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in a homicide, suicide or unintentional shooting than to be used in self-defense.
- Kellerman AL, Lee RK, Mercy JA, et al. "The Epidemiological Basis for the Prevention of Firearm Injuries." Annu. Rev. Public Health. 1991; 12:17-40'

Handguns account for 1/3 of all firearms owned and 2/3 of all firearm deaths. Ok, so what are you telling me? What exactly is the point in this statement? Anyone, ANYONE wanna take a wild-***-guess, I sure dunno. That said:

Lets look at gun ownership in light of functionality. I have a:

1) Squirrel rifle, 22 cal
2) Squirrel shotgun, 410 ga
3) Deer rifle, 30-06
" " , 5.56
" " , 270 Win
" " , 300 Win
4) Big game rifle, 375 Holland & Holland
5) Duck shotgun, 12 ga

I contend that most rifle and shotguns are purpose bought, clearly they are purpose built.

Pistols, most folks I know have 1 or 2 and by and large pistols are purpose bought and purpose built to provide self-defense. I happen to have 6, but that is because living alone for nearly 20 years I had them scattered about my home in locations that would allow me to protect myself from anywhere in the house.

Clearly looking at the so called fact, I believe its sole purpose is to 'scare' as it serves no other purpose I can see.

Now, as Paul Harvey sez, Page 2 or the second half of the 'fact'. 'A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in a homicide, suicide or unintentional shooting than to be used in self-defense.'

Where in hell are they coming up with that number? Several years ago a study was done to ascertain the usefulness of anti-lock brakes. The study concluded that they served no usefull purpose since there was no evidence of accidents that it prevented. Over my 20 years of living alone, I got my gun out on at least three occasions, turned on the lights and shouted, 'I have a gun, I will use it' only to hear footsteps in the dark disappear. Did I call the police, hell no, I am a gun owner and few gun owners will call the police unless something happens and there is a body on the ground.

Like anti-lock brakes, its very diffcult to ascertain the near misses when no one reports them.

[azdesertrhino]

I reposted this here from the other thread. It has links to actual statistics from the FBI, Department of Justice, the CDC etc. Not just some biased anti-gun group that slants the info for their own agenda.

Firearm Safety In America 2005


The number of privately owned guns in the U.S. is at an all-time high, and rises by about 4.5 million per year.1 Meanwhile, the nation's violent crime rate has decreased every year since 1991 and is now at a 27-year low.2 Below, statistics from 1981 forward are from the National Center for Health Statistics,3 while those prior to 1981 are from the National Safety Council.4 The NCHS' annual numbers, rates, and trends of common accidents and selected other causes of death, for the U.S., each state, and the District of Columbia, are available on the NRA-ILA website in spreadsheet format.5

Firearm accident deaths have been decreasing for decades. Since 1930, their annual number has decreased 76%, while the U.S. population has more than doubled and the number of firearms has quintupled. Among children, such deaths have decreased 89% since 1975.
Firearm accident deaths are at an all-time annual low, nationally and among children, while the U.S. population is at an all-time high. In 2002, there were 762 such deaths nationally, including 60 among children. Today, the odds are more than a million to one against a child in the U.S. dying from a firearm accident.
The firearm accident death rate is at an all-time annual low, 0.26 per 100,000 population, down 92% since the all-time high in 1904.
Firearms are involved in 1% of all deaths, and 1% of all deaths among children. Deaths involving firearms have decreased 19% since 1993.
Firearms are involved in 0.7% of accidental deaths nationally, and in 1% among children. Most accidental deaths involve, or are due to, motor vehicles (41%), poisoning (16%), falls (15%), suffocation (5%), drowning (3%), fires (3%), medical mistakes (2%), environmental factors (1%), and bicycles (1%). Among children: motor vehicles (44%), suffocation (16%), drowning (16%), fires (9%), bicycles (2%), poisoning (2%), falls (2%), environmental factors (1%), and medical mistakes (1%).
Education decreases accidents. Voluntary firearms safety training, not government intrusion, has decreased firearms accidents. NRA firearm safety programs are conducted by 62,000 NRA Certified Instructors and Coaches nationwide. Youngsters learn firearm safety in NRA programs offered through civic groups such as the Boy Scouts, Jaycees, the American Legion, and schools.6 NRA's Eddie Eagle GunSafe(r) program teaches children pre-K through 6th grade that if they see a firearm without supervision, they should "STOP! Don't Touch. Leave The Area. Tell An Adult." Since 1988, the program has been used by more than 22,000 schools, civic groups, and law enforcement agencies to reach 18 million children.7

The "cars and guns" myth. "Gun control" supporters advocate government intrusion, rather than education, to reduce accidents. They claim that driver licensing and auto registration caused motor vehicle accident deaths to decline between 1968-1991, and that gun registration and gun owner licensing would reduce gun accidents. They ask, "We register drivers and license cars, so why not guns and gun owners?"

Actually, vehicle registration and driver licensing laws were not imposed to reduce accidents, nor did the increased regulation reduce accidents. Most vehicle registration and driver licensing laws were imposed between the world wars, but motor vehicle accident deaths increased sharply after 1930 and didn't begin declining until 1970. And despite more regulation of vehicles and drivers over the years, vehicle accident deaths have increased during the last decade.

Between 1968-1991, the years cited by the anti-gunners, the motor vehicle accident death rate dropped only 37% with vehicle registration and driver licensing, while the firearm accident death rate dropped 50% without gun registration and gun owner licensing. The truth is, the anti-gunners want registration and licensing not for safety, but to erect the record-keeping apparatus necessary to make confiscation of privately owned firearms achievable in the future. The first leader of Handgun Control, Inc. (since renamed the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence) said that registration was the second step in the group's three-step plan to confiscate all handguns.8

Another difference between guns and cars is that the purchase and ownership of arms is a right expressly protected by the constitution, whereas operating a vehicle on public roads is a privilege. A license and registration are not required to merely own a vehicle or operate it on private property, only to do so on public roads. Similarly, a license and permit are not typically required to buy or own a gun, or to keep a gun at home, but are usually required when hunting or carrying a gun for protection in public places.

Anti-gunners' lies about children and guns. Brady Campaign president, Michael Barnes, and Senator Ted Kennedy (D-Mass.) claimed that 12 children die from gun accidents every day. President Bill Clinton campaigned for so called "triggerlock" and "smart" gun laws, claiming that 13 children are killed with guns every day. Possible 2008 presidential candidate Hillary Clinton claimed, "Every day in America we lose 13 precious children to gun-related violence." The HELP Network put the figure at "an average of 9 children" daily. Other "gun control" advocates have varyingly claimed 14 per day (or 5,000 yearly or one every 90 seconds). Some count anyone under the age of 24 as a "child," to get even higher numbers.9 In fact, on average there is one firearm-related death among children per day, including one accidental death every six days. Anti-gunners add the relatively small number of firearm related deaths among children to the much larger number of deaths among juveniles and young adults, and dishonestly call the total "children."

"Gun control" supporters point to a study claiming that so-called "Child Access Prevention" (CAP) laws (which make it a crime, under some circumstances, to leave a gun accessible to a child who obtains and misuses it), imposed in 12 states between 1989-1993, decreased fatal firearm accidents among children.10 The study was produced by people from the Harborview Injury Prevention and Research Center, a group active in the HELP (Handgun Epidemic Lowering Plan) Network, which is dedicated to "changing society's attitude toward guns so that it becomes socially unacceptable for private citizens to have handguns." The study's flaws: Firearm accident deaths among children began declining in the mid-1970s, not in 1989, when "CAP" laws were first imposed. Also, such accidents have decreased nationwide, not only in "CAP" states. And, also in 1989, NRA's Eddie Eagle GunSafe Program(r) was introduced nationwide.

1. See BATF, "Firearms Commerce in the United States 2001/2002" (www.atf.gov/pub/index.htm#Firearms).

2. FBI, Crime in the United States 2003 (www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm#cius), BJS (http://bjsdata.ojp.usdoj.gov/dataonline/), and FBI (www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel04/pressrel121304.htm and www.fbi.gov/ucr/2004/6mosprelim04.pdf).

3. See www.cdc.gov/ncipc/wisqars or wonder.cdc.gov.

4. Available at www.nsc.org/.

5. See www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=127.

6. For more on NRA training programs, visit www.nrahq.org (www.nrahq.org)(click "Education and Training") or call 703-267-1500.

7. For more on the Eddie Eagle program, visit www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/ or call 703-267-1573.

8. Pete Shields, quoted in The New Yorker, "A Reporter At Large: Handguns," July 26, 1976.

9. NRA-ILA "Not 12 Per Day" fact sheet, http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=21
10. Journal of the American Medical Association, Oct. 1, 1997.

[azrubyman]

I reposted this here from the other thread. It has links to actual statistics from the FBI, Department of Justice, the CDC etc. Not just some biased anti-gun group that slants the info for their own agenda.

Firearm Safety In America 2005


The number of privately owned guns in the U.S. is at an all-time high, and rises by about 4.5 million per year.1 Meanwhile, the nation's violent crime rate has decreased every year since 1991 and is now at a 27-year low.2 Below, statistics from 1981 forward are from the National Center for Health Statistics,3 while those prior to 1981 are from the National Safety Council.4 The NCHS' annual numbers, rates, and trends of common accidents and selected other causes of death, for the U.S., each state, and the District of Columbia, are available on the NRA-ILA website in spreadsheet format.5

Firearm accident deaths have been decreasing for decades. Since 1930, their annual number has decreased 76%, while the U.S. population has more than doubled and the number of firearms has quintupled. Among children, such deaths have decreased 89% since 1975.
Firearm accident deaths are at an all-time annual low, nationally and among children, while the U.S. population is at an all-time high. In 2002, there were 762 such deaths nationally, including 60 among children. Today, the odds are more than a million to one against a child in the U.S. dying from a firearm accident.
The firearm accident death rate is at an all-time annual low, 0.26 per 100,000 population, down 92% since the all-time high in 1904.
Firearms are involved in 1% of all deaths, and 1% of all deaths among children. Deaths involving firearms have decreased 19% since 1993.
Firearms are involved in 0.7% of accidental deaths nationally, and in 1% among children. Most accidental deaths involve, or are due to, motor vehicles (41%), poisoning (16%), falls (15%), suffocation (5%), drowning (3%), fires (3%), medical mistakes (2%), environmental factors (1%), and bicycles (1%). Among children: motor vehicles (44%), suffocation (16%), drowning (16%), fires (9%), bicycles (2%), poisoning (2%), falls (2%), environmental factors (1%), and medical mistakes (1%).
Education decreases accidents. Voluntary firearms safety training, not government intrusion, has decreased firearms accidents. NRA firearm safety programs are conducted by 62,000 NRA Certified Instructors and Coaches nationwide. Youngsters learn firearm safety in NRA programs offered through civic groups such as the Boy Scouts, Jaycees, the American Legion, and schools.6 NRA's Eddie Eagle GunSafe(r) program teaches children pre-K through 6th grade that if they see a firearm without supervision, they should "STOP! Don't Touch. Leave The Area. Tell An Adult." Since 1988, the program has been used by more than 22,000 schools, civic groups, and law enforcement agencies to reach 18 million children.7

The "cars and guns" myth. "Gun control" supporters advocate government intrusion, rather than education, to reduce accidents. They claim that driver licensing and auto registration caused motor vehicle accident deaths to decline between 1968-1991, and that gun registration and gun owner licensing would reduce gun accidents. They ask, "We register drivers and license cars, so why not guns and gun owners?"

Actually, vehicle registration and driver licensing laws were not imposed to reduce accidents, nor did the increased regulation reduce accidents. Most vehicle registration and driver licensing laws were imposed between the world wars, but motor vehicle accident deaths increased sharply after 1930 and didn't begin declining until 1970. And despite more regulation of vehicles and drivers over the years, vehicle accident deaths have increased during the last decade.

Between 1968-1991, the years cited by the anti-gunners, the motor vehicle accident death rate dropped only 37% with vehicle registration and driver licensing, while the firearm accident death rate dropped 50% without gun registration and gun owner licensing. The truth is, the anti-gunners want registration and licensing not for safety, but to erect the record-keeping apparatus necessary to make confiscation of privately owned firearms achievable in the future. The first leader of Handgun Control, Inc. (since renamed the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence) said that registration was the second step in the group's three-step plan to confiscate all handguns.8

Another difference between guns and cars is that the purchase and ownership of arms is a right expressly protected by the constitution, whereas operating a vehicle on public roads is a privilege. A license and registration are not required to merely own a vehicle or operate it on private property, only to do so on public roads. Similarly, a license and permit are not typically required to buy or own a gun, or to keep a gun at home, but are usually required when hunting or carrying a gun for protection in public places.

Anti-gunners' lies about children and guns. Brady Campaign president, Michael Barnes, and Senator Ted Kennedy (D-Mass.) claimed that 12 children die from gun accidents every day. President Bill Clinton campaigned for so called "triggerlock" and "smart" gun laws, claiming that 13 children are killed with guns every day. Possible 2008 presidential candidate Hillary Clinton claimed, "Every day in America we lose 13 precious children to gun-related violence." The HELP Network put the figure at "an average of 9 children" daily. Other "gun control" advocates have varyingly claimed 14 per day (or 5,000 yearly or one every 90 seconds). Some count anyone under the age of 24 as a "child," to get even higher numbers.9 In fact, on average there is one firearm-related death among children per day, including one accidental death every six days. Anti-gunners add the relatively small number of firearm related deaths among children to the much larger number of deaths among juveniles and young adults, and dishonestly call the total "children."

"Gun control" supporters point to a study claiming that so-called "Child Access Prevention" (CAP) laws (which make it a crime, under some circumstances, to leave a gun accessible to a child who obtains and misuses it), imposed in 12 states between 1989-1993, decreased fatal firearm accidents among children.10 The study was produced by people from the Harborview Injury Prevention and Research Center, a group active in the HELP (Handgun Epidemic Lowering Plan) Network, which is dedicated to "changing society's attitude toward guns so that it becomes socially unacceptable for private citizens to have handguns." The study's flaws: Firearm accident deaths among children began declining in the mid-1970s, not in 1989, when "CAP" laws were first imposed. Also, such accidents have decreased nationwide, not only in "CAP" states. And, also in 1989, NRA's Eddie Eagle GunSafe Program(r) was introduced nationwide.

1. See BATF, "Firearms Commerce in the United States 2001/2002" (www.atf.gov/pub/index.htm#Firearms).

2. FBI, Crime in the United States 2003 (www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm#cius), BJS (http://bjsdata.ojp.usdoj.gov/dataonline/), and FBI (www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel04/pressrel121304.htm and www.fbi.gov/ucr/2004/6mosprelim04.pdf).

3. See www.cdc.gov/ncipc/wisqars or wonder.cdc.gov.

4. Available at www.nsc.org/.

5. See www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=127.

6. For more on NRA training programs, visit www.nrahq.org (www.nrahq.org)(click "Education and Training") or call 703-267-1500.

7. For more on the Eddie Eagle program, visit www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/ or call 703-267-1573.

8. Pete Shields, quoted in The New Yorker, "A Reporter At Large: Handguns," July 26, 1976.

9. NRA-ILA "Not 12 Per Day" fact sheet, http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=21
10. Journal of the American Medical Association, Oct. 1, 1997.

Great post Jim!
Ken

[Antman]

Yes Jim a great post. Thanks.

[xFallen]

I just wish we could make gun owning parents safer. Thats all. One child death is one too many.

No question. I doubt anyone will argue against that.


Barry

[SavageSun4x4]

Great fact sheet and it hammers many of the so called 'facts' belched out by the anti-gun lobby that will say ANYTHING, no lie to great.

Certainly is a sad day when a child dies from anyting, but as a child [and a child is more under the age of 12 rather than the anti-gun lobby 24] dying by a gun is a rare instance and even more rare in families that have more than one gun in the home. The more guns in the home lends one to more active gun ownership and more gun education.

Growing up guns were not in short supply in my home and were everywhere, many in reach, but education by my Dad ensured that my sister and myself handled them properly.

I was about 15 or so and it was early one fall morning. I was dressing getting ready to go take care of the stock prior to going to school. As I stood there in my rook buttoning my shirt I see what I first beleive to be the light in my room bouncing off a tree that went up in front of my window. At first I thought it was me wobblying back 'n forth at about 5am. The I noticed it didn't stop when I did. I knew then it was that dang possum that was nesting up in the attic and used that tree as the ladder to go up and down from the roof. I turned, too my shotgun off the wall, loaded it with a couple of shells, open the window and bam, blew the possum away. I finished dressing, put my 'stable' boots on and headed into the main part of the house to eat breakfast. As I sat down, Dad, said, 'bet you shot that possum didn't you?' 'Yep, blew him away as he was crawling up the tree to the attic'. Dad, said, 'don't worry about it, you go on out to the barn and do your chores, I'll pickup the possum for you'.

Can you imagine in today's climate the reaction from a shotgun going off in a teen's room at 5 am in the morning before school?

[azdesertrhino]

No question. I doubt anyone will argue against that.


Barry

I agree 100% that any child accidentally killed by a gun is 1 too many. Children need to be educated about firearms. When you tell any child, "YOU DON'T EVER TOUCH THIS", whether it's your Playboy magazine, your gun, or __________ (you fill in the blank) and hide it from them, at the first opportunity, that child is going to "touch it". A child must be educated so if he/she is at some friends house and some moron thinks a gun is a toy, they must know what the proper procedure is, Like "Get the hell out of there and notify a responsible adult."
I was introduced to firearms at an early age as a lot of people from my generation were. I was taught how to handle it properly and safety rules.
I'm sure this thread will continue to bring up points of debate and interest. Guns are a part of our culture and will be forever if I can do anything about it, so let's educate our children to be safe.

[jeepnut7261]

Wow...You guys are serious about your guns! Well I will have you know that I AM A GUN OWNER. So I would not appreciate the government taking away my guns. I do have a problem with gun deaths at the hands of children.

As far as those 'facts', some are a bit dated. However, all of them provide the source for the information. So if you want to know how they came up with '22 times more likely', then go look up the article. Its not tough, the ASU library will allow you to look it up online.

Stu - I would bet your right.

Jim - Great facts.

But here is where the numbers sort of bother me...

Ok, 1% of child deaths are by guns, right? How many kids is that?

HOW MANY CHILD GUN-RELATED DEATHS ARE ACCEPTABLE?

I know, I know, your going to say how many car accidents are too many right?

Just remeber that the NHSTA is constantly testing and working to make cars safer.

I just wish we could make gun owning parents safer. Thats all. One child death is one too many.


This sounds like a typical Liberal dodge, "But I"M one you guys! I'm a gun owner/fiscal conservative/support our troops/insert whatever here"
Instead of addressing the fact that your argument has just been shown to be a load of "bushwa" you are trying to divert the point that what you brought up is without any factual foundation. If you truly feel so strongly, why have you not given up Your gun?

Then comes dodge number 2. "It's for the children!"
If it wasn't for all the antigun propaganda forced on us by the leftwing media, the children would have a proper education about gun safety in first place, and the true "accidents" would not occur.
Both of these are specifically designed to cause you to take no action when you see that what was just dumped on your doorstep is a load of dog poop
Have you any children? Have you educated them, or are you part fo the problem?

By labeling the "gun" as the cause, they are framing the argument. It's like answering yes or no to the "Have you stopped beating your wife?" question.
As far as looking up the article you referencd, you are using Liberal tactic number 3. When presented with real data, you ignore it. You are ignoring the fact that your data is false. It is, to put it bluntly, a LIE. That is the difference between what you deposited, and the post from Jim. And hence you're ignoring it in your reply.
Do you blame the step when you stub your toe? Stairs should be abolished! Or is it toes?

Obviously you did not read the other posts here in detail, Sir, whether by intent or due to intellectual sloth, neither of which is excusable. You mention ASU, so your lack of initiative might be understandable, due to institutional Liberal programming.

I will not apologise if I have offended you, as you have offered no apology for your boorish behavior. If you cannot take criticism, do not offer up swill and call it wine.

I have worked Trauma for many years, and have been witness to the needless death of far to many children, and I am deeply offended by anyone who stoop so low as to use those many tragedies for political gain.

To all others witness to my outburst, I do offer my apologies, not for the content, but for the intensity.


For evil to triumph, good men need merely do nothing

[SavageSun4x4]

Then comes dodge number 2. "It's for the children!"
If it wasn't for all the antigun propaganda forced on us by the leftwing media, the children would have a proper education about gun safety in first place, and the true "accidents" would not occur.

For evil to triumph, good men need merely do nothing
I am sure you know that the NRA offer its 'Eddie Eagle' http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/ program. Its also available on video and one does not need be a member of NRA to teach it. In essence:

The Eddie Eagle GunSafe® Program teaches children in pre-K through third grade four important steps to take if they find a gun. These steps are presented by the program's mascot, Eddie Eagle®, in an easy-to-remember format consisting of the following simple rules:

If you see a gun:
STOP!
Don't Touch.
Leave the Area.
Tell an Adult.

However most schools WILL NOT allow it to be taught since it exposes children to guns.

[SavageSun4x4]

Be sure to check my other two posts on the fireams forum. Some very interesting local stuff.

[Wildcat455]

A spirited post if I may say so...



"Typical liberal dodge" - I like that...did you come up with it yourself?

First, the FACT of the matter, sir, is that I AM A GUN OWNER. How can that possibly be a strike against me?

So I am not sure what your point here is...Ahh I got it! You would like to 'label' me in order to associate my view with some extreme leftist position. That way, everyone reading your post will stop and say 'YEA, those lousy liberals!' rather than stoppping thinking about the issue and mocing forward. Sorry chump, not gonna work.

I never said "Ban all guns"

I didn't even call for the ban on 'military' style weapons...

Frankly, I am tired of the level some folks on this board have to stoop...labels...Geez, didn't we leave those on the playground?

Lastly, I GAVE MY SOURCES. go look them up if you doubt their factual content.



Lefwing media? That is a whole 'nother topic...Can you say "Fox news"...Please...Anyhow, back ON TOPIC....

So let me get this straight...In some grand conspiracy by the 'leftwing' media, we are purposely trying to further these senseless deaths for... for what purpose? So Joe bag'o'donuts can't go shoot a duck? Destroy a road sign? Shoot orange saucer shaped disks for sport?

I do not have children. However, I can hardly see why that should matter. I think it sucks people are starving in Africa, but I don't live there either...Whats wrong with that?

However, I think you missed the part where I mentioned that although others have pointed out that automobiles cause far more deaths each year, we still work toward making them safer (even by installing anti-swerve technology).



I never label guns as the cause...All the statements say firearms-related inccidents. I even posted a fact that KIDS can pull the trigger on guns. That obviously acknowledges that KIDS are capable of being the cause...whatever their motivation.



Whoa there partner...No one on this board outright showed that these numbers are FALSE. They instead did three things:

Disputed the source...I give Savage credit here...

Stu and a few other mentioned the 'context' of the numbers...Although the context may be different then what one may assume, that does not make a number 'false'.

Lastly, everyone else presented 'other' but not contrary statistics, none of which I disputed (Matter of fact I was just on the CDC website checking them out...Did you?)

So your now calling me a LIAR...



Ahhh attack me personally and the ONE of the many institutions that I have studied at...Your really 3 for 3 in this post!

Tell me, where did you receive you conservative programming? Don't answer...like you I will just assume your a student of Rush 101...



Don't apologize...I like criticism...but only when it is founded on something worth thinking about.



Political gain? What am I to gain from expressing my concerns? I have no children, and I am a gun owner...Hmmm....Not sure where you are going here. I called for no bans, just CONCERN.



I rather enjoyed the intensity...It adds...a...a comical nature to your sentiments.



That line would fit the conservative mantra quite well...Preserve the status quo...

Wow, you enjoy yourself and your opinions allot. You are also kind of a smart arse.. But I am unsure at this point if that criticism is founded on "Something worth thinking about"... So this reply could be "lost" on your inflated sense of education.


All this and still no one knows your name... I'm sure some of us understand the need for privacy....

[Wildcat455]

Bill, I do not find it necessary to post my name, those that have wheeled with me know who I am. I think if you met me in person you would hardly connect the poster with the person. Reason being is that these issues usually get heated in person and I find it to be very untasteful to bring them up in person. Anyhow, we are usually enjoying the reason we are together, to wheel. Most of the time OTHERS are bringing up these topics, I am just responding.

I find it funny that everytime someone takes a direct stab at my posts, my responses are deemed to be "just to for my own pleasure" or "to hear my own voice".

What gives? If someone calls you a hypocrite...You tell them where they got it wrong. If someone calls you liar, you do the same. I wasn't raised to turn and run at the first sign of opposition. Maybe you would prefer it, but don't hold your breath.

I am outspoken, but no less than anyone else on this board.

What bothers me is the recent personal attacks.

Hypocrite
Liar
Smart Arse
"Full of one self"

Geez, at least I challenge your arguments. Even if I wanted too, I couldn't make a personal comment about some of you...I hardly know you from Adam. That is why it is far easier to address you WORDS rather than some unknown entity such as your personal life.

Peace.

Hey, I said "Kind of a smart Arse" :D
I respect your privacy, I was just looking for a way to address the replies to you, kind of like you did in your response, you read my name at the base of my email, and then posted:

"Bill, I do not find it necessary...."
I just didn't think you wanted me to call you "0IIII0"... and I didn't want to be disrespectful.

[Jamie469]

"FACT: Taxpayers pay more than 85% of the medical cost for treatment of firearm-related injuries.
- Martin M, et al. "The Cost of Hospitalization for Firearm Injuries." JAMA. Vol 260, November 25, 1998, pp 3048, and Ordog et al. "Hospital Costs of Firearm Injuries." Abstract. Journal of Trauma. February 1995, p1)"

That would mean that 85% of people who get shot and need medical help are on Medicare or some other social health care plan, which is just not even close to the truth. Think they pulled that one out of their asses.....

[TRobertsRN]

OK 0III0 Savage Sun and others,

What are your specific stands on possession of hunting weapons, assault weapons, and hand guns.

It is my belief that no one has the right ever to take any of these weapons from me as long as I have committed no felony. It is not only my right but my duty to keep and bear arms so that neither a foreign nor my own government can take any of the rights given to me by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. If they take your guns what stops them from taking away free speech, freedom of religion, equal rights, or any of the others?

I think all of us agree that children dying for any reason is not good. So what are your suggestions to reduce the number of child deaths related to guns?

My opinion is mandatory education about gun safety for children is the answer.

[SavageSun4x4]

OK 0III0 Savage Sun and others,

What are your specific stands on possession of hunting weapons, assault weapons, and hand guns.

I think all of us agree that children dying for any reason is not good. So what are your suggestions to reduce the number of child deaths related to guns?

1) "Amendment II: A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

What part of 'shall not be infringed' do you not understand? Also, nowhere in the amendment cira 1791 does it say anything about my ownership of a gun that someone else sez its ok for me to own, hunt with or anything else. Therefore if I think I should own the new S&W in .500 cal or a .50 cal Barret to shoot ground chucks with, then that is my choice. Now if your a felon your not owning a gun of any kind and your not voting either. Felons voting is just around the corner I am afraid. Seems that liberal congressmen want to give them the right to vote in trade for a vote [so what else is new?]

2) Snakes! I don't understand why we teach children to not pick up snakes, to run, and to inform an adult but we want to hide guns from them as if they don't see them they can't hurt them:confused: :confused: :confused:

[TRobertsRN]

OK, I agree with Savage Sun AKA Don. How about some specifics from 0III0 or whatever your name is.

Tom

[azdesertrhino]

That would mean that 85% of people who get shot and need medical help are on Medicare or some other social health care plan, which is just not even close to the truth. Think they pulled that one out of their asses.....

I guess it depends where you read. The JAMA says approx. 50% but I did see the numbers of 80 to 85% on different sites. They're stating that a lot of costs associated with treating gunshot wounds are not covered by insurance and thus passed on to the taxpayer.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/282/5/447

[TRobertsRN]

1) "Amendment II: A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

It is my belief that if the clauses were meant for one to be dependant on the other there would be a period between the statements. A revolution had just been won and they wanted to state a militia is necessary to insure freedom, not that if a militia was needed people shold have the right to bear arms. The right to bear arms insures that if and when needed a militia can be formed of people with experience in firearms.

If is my belief that a militia is and always will be need to insure freedom. The Bill of Rights came about because the states did not trust a national government that was too powerful. Again the second amendment protects our freedom from those that would threaten it be they a foriegn power or our own government.

[Antman]

I have no issue with upstanding citizens (i.e. non-criminals) owning these weapons.



Education is a great way to reduce the number of child-related gun deaths. How to implement that is an issue however. Should we force parents who own guns to attend a mandatory gun safety class with their children??? Should we require, as some law makers have proposed, that we institute some sort of safety device so children cannot access nor fire a weapon???

Either way, irresponsible parents should be held accountable.


John, my friend, I sure agree with you on this one. I FEEL that any gun owners with kids or who has kids in their house probable should go through some kind of gun safety training course.

Years ago, (Here I go again), I learned a lesson, I might add, the easy way. Both of my boys have been around guns their whole life, and know the rules. I have a gun cabinet with my guns in it. The ammo is locked up. My youngest boy at the time was about 12 and he had a few friends over after school. Well, one of the boys got into the room where the gun cabinet was and found the main door was unlocked and proceeded to remove one of the guns, a Mini-14. My son, looking for him, walked into the room just as his friend sholdered the rifle and pointed it at him and pulled the trigger. Needless to say there was a fight! I came in and broke it up, and after finding out what it was about was shocked! I told the boy's parents and found out the boy didnt have any experience with guns and asked if they would sign him up for a gun safety course as soon as he was old enough. This boy is now grown and a very experienced hunter and is still a good friend of the family, and is still very embarrassed about the incident.

Leason learned: There are OTHER children around your guns! Double check they are locked up and seperated from their ammo!

[SavageSun4x4]

Some believe that the second clause of this statement (the right of the people...) is actually seperate from the first clause...Therefore a right to keep and bear arms is conditioned on a neccesary militia. This point of view sees the first part as the 'ablative case' or the cause where by the second clause is conidtioned.

However, some have pointed out that the 2nd amendment does not explicity give the right to bear arms, but assumes the right already exists and is applying it to the fact that a militia is necessary and consitutes the 'people'.

Either way, if you were to take the ablative case argument as true, the opposite would be true, that is there is no cause for a militia there is no need for a right to bear arms. However, this is clearly a sentiment that the founders such as Jefferson, would not have endorsed. So the argument for the ablative case falls flat historically.

2) Snakes! I don't understand why we teach children to not pick up snakes, to run, and to inform an adult but we want to hide guns from them as if they don't see them they can't hurt them:confused: :confused: :confused:

Actually, we may not need to teach our children about snakes at all. Some psychologists have suggested that humans possess some innate fears for dangerous animals or situations, such as snakes, heights, and spiders.[/QUOTE]
What you bring up has been discussed and brought up before and as always, the argument fails under its own bloated weight.

When the Constitution was written no one sitting at the table thought about ‘ablative case argument’. In fact it was written quite plainly so as the common person could and would understand it. In the past few years, those on the anti-gun crusade have enlisted almost anyone with any conceivable argument against the 2nd Amendment. Most, like this one are more comical than realistic. Hence the ‘what don’t you understand’ punch line used by those who support gun ownership.

Perhaps as you say there is an inherent fear of snakes, but do you want to take that chance with your 5 year old?